I really liked the brief scene with Jack pushing Juliet's buttons over her place in the Others' group. It was a complete reversal of roles, with Jack hitting Juliet about Ben's leadership role in the same way Ben was hammering Locke about Jack's leadership status among the Losties. It was a nice, subtle parallel drawn between the two.


DLKD-

Yah the scene was very nice. Though i did not make the connection between when Henry was in prison and now. Good catch.

I really liked the brief scene with Jack pushing Juliet's buttons over her place in the Others' group. -
I LOVED that scene! Jack is a pretty smart cookie and he's figured out that he can't force his way out of there. He's going to have to cause a little dissension in the ranks by psychologically manipulating THEM! ;)

Jack's a lot smarter and more savvy than people give him credit for.

Hell, I've always liked mean, manipulative Jack. Hopefully we see more of this type and not the one that was presented to us in ATOTC.

Smart Jack is back! YAY!!!

Exactly! I was so happy to see Jack thinking and using his brain instead of sitting in the corner feeling sorry for himself.

Also, just wanted to say when he told Juliet "He didn't care if her feelings were hurt" (or something like that) I felt like doing a little cheer (and I am not even a huge Jackfan)!

And when Ben came in with news of the "situation", Juliet said "Can it wait?" like she had more stuff to say.....

Maybe she said "Can it wait?" to sort of macho (wrong word here but I can't think of a better one) prove to Jack that Ben's not the boss of her.

Ben thinks he's in charge, that's for sure.

I think Jack has found the chink in the armor (so to speak). I was impressed....and I am not a Jack fan.

Did anyone think it was clumsier than the way Ben played Locke? I think it was pretty clumsy, but did the trick. Enough to cause Juliet to react badly when Ben came in the room.

Don

That scene was priceless, i loved those Jack & Juliet scenes. The acting and the dialogue is so superb, it reminds me of the amazing dialogue between Jack and his Dad back in the season one episodes. I love that Jack, being a spinal surgeon and all (who are generally quite clever and well educated) is using his brain, he's not letting Ben's comments get to him and is still firmly a "Man of Science", which i really enjoy about Jack.

Next step, Jack is going to manipulate THE MANIPULATOR, Ben!

Don,
Yeah I agree with you. Jack is deff. not as subtle as Ben when it comes to manipulation, but it was a good effort and it did have a small payoff. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the spreading of paranoia through the ranks of Others.

Maybe she said "Can it wait?" to sort of macho (wrong word here but I can't think of a better one) prove to Jack that Ben's not the boss of her.

Ben thinks he's in charge, that's for sure.
Yes! That was totally what I thought. But instead of proving only to Jack, she also wanted to prove it to herself.... But the truth is, Ben does boss the others around and they all listen to him.....

I agree that it was a great scene, I thought Jack was going to kiss her for a moment. The part of Jack's "manipulation" I found clumsy was when he said he didnt care about Juliets feelings, I believe it was clumsy because Jack does care about Juliets feelings.

They did a great job with this parallel, and it was the first thing that I thought of during that scene.
Did anyone think it was clumsier than the way Ben played Locke? I think it was pretty clumsy, but did the trick. Enough to cause Juliet to react badly when Ben came in the room. Agreed. That's actually how I caught the parallel -- as I was watching that scene I was thinking, "Hey, he's not doing too great at trying to be Fenry..." Jack made a good attempt, but was not nearly as subtle or manipulative as Ben was.

Maybe she said "Can it wait?" to sort of macho (wrong word here but I can't think of a better one) prove to Jack that Ben's not the boss of her.Definitely. She wanted to immediately prove that Ben did not have control over her.

I was so happy to see Jack thinking and using his brain instead of sitting in the corner feeling sorry for himself.

Also, just wanted to say when he told Juliet "He didn't care if her feelings were hurt" (or something like that) I felt like doing a little cheer (and I am not even a huge Jackfan)!Same here. It was great to see him use some level of cleverness and attempt to figure out/manipulate the relationship dynamic of the Others. MUCH better than whiney Jack.

I agree that it was a great scene, I thought Jack was going to kiss her for a moment. The part of Jack's "manipulation" I found clumsy was when he said he didnt care about Juliets feelings, I believe it was clumsy because Jack does care about Juliets feelings.
At this point, why would Jack care about Juliets feelings? He hardly knows her, except for the fact that she brings him food and cracked a small joke, they don't have any kind of connection yet....

At this point, why would Jack care about Juliets feelings? He hardly knows her, except for the fact that she brings him food and cracked a small joke, they don't have any kind of connection yet....

I dont know, why do people develope stockholm syndrome, why does the island heal? To me when he made the statement to her it seemed sincere, I thought he made the comment that he didnt care once he realized what he said, maybe it was habit, as a doctor maybe he was used to trying to make other doctors feel better when their patient dies and then realized he didnt want to make her feel better so he said he didnt care. I dont know, Im just saying it looked like he wanted to kiss her and that maybe something is going to develope between them. Obviously he shouldnt care she did kidnap him.

At this point, why would Jack care about Juliets feelings? He hardly knows her, except for the fact that she brings him food and cracked a small joke, they don't have any kind of connection yet....
Even if he did care, it was smart for him not to show it. He needs to do whatever he can to appear less vulnerable, as all of the crying is not helping that.

Even if he did care, it was smart for him not to show it. He needs to do whatever he can to appear less vulnerable, as all of the crying is not helping that.

Jack knows he's being monitored. He wanted to make sure anyone watching didn't think they could use her against Jack. To show he cared for Juliet in any way would be a weakness the Others would exploit.

Re Jack's exchange with Juliet? he doesn't do 'bedside manners' with anyone.
The x rays? whatever. For me Jack has the confidence to ask/nay demand who's they were. I think his psyche is settling after his traumas and we may see some good stuff now from him, his taunting of Juliet may be an example.

Also, just a thought. Juliet was their main man with Colleen's injury and she called on Jack. he has an advantage now.

I'm so glad i was'nt the only person to notice this.

That was execellently well performed.

Yeah I noticd this as I was watching and thought it was amusing.

Did anyone think it was clumsier than the way Ben played Locke? I think it was pretty clumsy, but did the trick. Enough to cause Juliet to react badly when Ben came in the room.

Don

Yeah I think it was clumsy as well, I got the feeling that jack was just trying to copy exactly what Benry was doing Actually was he around to hear any of Benry's manipulation of locke or did he come up with this tactic on his own.

I don't think Jack was clumsy, I just think that Ben is naturally deceitful, whereas Jack is honest, so playing mind games doesn't come as easily to him.

I don't think Jack was clumsy, I just think that Ben is naturally deceitful, whereas Jack is honest, so playing mind games doesn't come as easily to him.
I totally agree with that!

Did anyone think it was clumsier than the way Ben played Locke? I think it was pretty clumsy, but did the trick. Enough to cause Juliet to react badly when Ben came in the room.

Don


Well, like Ben said to Sawyer, he and the Others are more adept at the "con" then the Losties are. I guess that goes for one on one manipulation as well. Ben certainly seems more polished, but Jack's efforts didn't seem as contrived (in hindsight).

I don't think Jack acted clumsy at all. It seemed to me that he was trying to figure out how their society worked.. by openly asking her questions about if Ben's in charge, and if she was just the one that brings him food i think that Jack came off curious and sincere. He was frustrated with the situation and hadn't gotten many concrete answers from the others so Juliet may not have realized that his questions were meant to manipulate her.

I'm not always the biggest Jack fan either but I was very pleased with this episode! So good on him :biggrin:

There is no double meaning to Jack reassuring her about the death of Colleen and then saying he doesn't care how she feels. Jack was responding to her in complete 'Dr. Jack' mode. He wasn't worried about the situation around him, he was being a Doctor. Once she opened up to him, he came back to his current situation mentally and realized what he was doing, and let her knew how real Jack felt.

There is no double meaning to Jack reassuring her about the death of Colleen and then saying he doesn't care how she feels. Jack was responding to her in complete 'Dr. Jack' mode. He wasn't worried about the situation around him, he was being a Doctor. Once she opened up to him, he came back to his current situation mentally and realized what he was doing, and let her knew how real Jack felt.The Fenry moment that I think we are referring to (at least the one that I am referring to) was when Juliet and Jack were chatting in his cell, before they went to deal with Colleen. The Fenry part was when he was questioning the dynamic between Juliet and Ben, particularly when he made a remark about Ben not helping her when Jack had threatened her life. This was much like when "Henry" was provoking Locke by asking him why Jack was in charge.

The Fenry moment that I think we are referring to (at least the one that I am referring to) was when Juliet and Jack were chatting in his cell, before they went to deal with Colleen. The Fenry part was when he was questioning the dynamic between Juliet and Ben, particularly when he made a remark about Ben not helping her when Jack had threatened her life. This was much like when "Henry" was provoking Locke by asking him why Jack was in charge.

That's correct. That's the scene that prompted me to start this topic, although I think the post-Colleen's death Jack/Juliet scene is also relevant. Both scenes revolve around Jack's attempts to manipulate his captors.


DLKD-

I really liked the brief scene with Jack pushing Juliet's buttons over her place in the Others' group. It was a complete reversal of roles, with Jack hitting Juliet about Ben's leadership role in the same way Ben was hammering Locke about Jack's leadership status among the Losties. It was a nice, subtle parallel drawn between the two.


DLKD-

Indeed! Also, the fact that this particular scene was immediately succeeded (or was it preceded) by the scene wherein Sawyer breaks out his 'momma'-remark and completely gets the psychological upperhand on Pickett, just made it all the sweeter.

I thought Juliet had the upper hand at first, shrugging off Jack's remarks, but then she slipped up when she said "I don't answer to him" or something like that, and then Ben came in the room and she followed him like his servant, oh she slipped up big time there, first chink in the armour. Jack is only gonna dent that chink ever further, and god damn i'm looking forward to it. She seems like she will be easy to break, after the death scene aswell. Bring it on Jack!

Jack wasn't even there when Ben was trying to pull all the whose in charge mumbo jumbo on Locke, so it definitely isn't an attempt to "copy." I think it just shows that Jack may be just as difficult to break as Ben was. But, what exactly are they even trying to break him of? The Losties aren't up to anything at all. Their plane crashed and they want the hell of the island. No ulterior motives.

I think the scene had to be a bit clumsy for our sake. Back in season two the fake henry drama was dragged out for a few episodes to confuse us. Jack's "game" didn't need to be dragged out to let us know what he is up to. Just my 2 1/2 cents worth.

I really liked the brief scene with Jack pushing Juliet's buttons over her place in the Others' group. It was a complete reversal of roles, with Jack hitting Juliet about Ben's leadership role in the same way Ben was hammering Locke about Jack's leadership status among the Losties. It was a nice, subtle parallel drawn between the two.


DLKD-


Yes, I noticed this as well. A reversal of "fortune", so to speak.