There were so many things odd about this episode that it felt like they just went through it and cut all the explanatory scenes and left it to the audience to figure it out.

Start with Ben saying 'the only way to get a con-man's respect...' Huh? They want Sawyers respect? We're the ones getting conned here...

Sawyer was either stabbed thru the chest with a cardiac horse needle or he wasn't - he would know. We don't. I don't think that is the way to give an anesthetic, is it? It certainly might stop the heart, but what then restarts it? No crash cart there...

Why does Pickett keep yelling 'do you love him?' to Kate? Why does that matter when he just wants revenge? And why does he stop?

How does Sawyer go about getting out of the Federal Prison by having his sentence commuted for recovery of funds. Warden's don't do that, only the Attorney General, or Above make those decisions. The warden isn't going to care, he's got a different job. So, Sawyer just goes to the warden and offers his services...? (Why is Sawyer in a federal pen?)

Why does the guy smart enough to snatch $10m from the government think his wife hiring a PI is going to find the money that the Feds couldn't? And then tell a conman with 6 years left to go on his sentence. How does he think Sawyer is going to help him, really?

Why does seeing an island a couple of miles away make the present island escape proof? Nobody can swim? Build a raft? Steal a sub?

Maybe all of these things could have been explained to the audiences satisfaction, but they didn't bother. At the end, it just left me scratching my head in disbelief and wondering what I had just watched...

Worst of all was that Kate couldn't escape until she had jeans to wear...

I'm sure some feel that each of these has an explanation that is implied, but that is the problem in a nutshell. That somehow felt like a 2 hour episode chopped into an hour.

Oldwiz

You've really GOT to stop trying to make sense of this show, Oldwiz! You'll bring your heart rate up to maximum and blow yourself up, at this rate!

:71:

You've really GOT to stop trying to make sense of this show, Oldwiz! You'll bring your heart rate up to maximum and blow yourself up, at this rate!

:71:

Can't you hear my monitor beeping where you are? :biggrin:

Actually, it's like buying a lovely tapestry from a snapshot, then when you lay it on the floor the dog does doo-doo's on it in middle of the exquisite patterns...

Oldwiz

Start with Ben saying 'the only way to get a con-man's respect...' Huh? They want Sawyers respect? We're the ones getting conned here...He meant respect in the sense of "we've broken him and he will do what we say." In other words, the kind of respect a dog has for a master.

Sawyer was either stabbed thru the chest with a cardiac horse needle or he wasn't - he would know. We don't. I don't think that is the way to give an anesthetic, is it? It certainly might stop the heart, but what then restarts it? No crash cart there...I believe he was stabbed with the needle, but it stopped there-- they gave him something to make him pass out, and when he came to they gave the little demonstration with Bunny #8 to imply that they had actually installed a pacemaker.

Why does Pickett keep yelling 'do you love him?' to Kate? Why does that matter when he just wants revenge? And why does he stop?Pickett already has a grudge against Sawyer for his disobedience, and he knows that there is something between him and Kate. When Colleen dies, Pickett acts out against the Losties, because he perceives them as a group and blames them as a whole for the death ("They killed her!"). So he acts out against the person who is closest, and he acts out in a way that shows he wants to hurt Sawyer, and Kate too by hurting someone she loves, just as he was hurt when the person he loved had to suffer.

How does Sawyer go about getting out of the Federal Prison by having his sentence commuted for recovery of funds. Warden's don't do that, only the Attorney General, or Above make those decisions. The warden isn't going to care, he's got a different job. So, Sawyer just goes to the warden and offers his services...? (Why is Sawyer in a federal pen?)This was not a legitimate situation going on. The warden was corrupt and was trying to get to the money under the table, for himself rather than recovering it for the sake of the government.

Why does the guy smart enough to snatch $10m from the government think his wife hiring a PI is going to find the money that the Feds couldn't? And then tell a conman with 6 years left to go on his sentence. How does he think Sawyer is going to help him, really?There's a difference between having the book smarts to embezzle from your company, and the street smarts to spot a con man.

Why does seeing an island a couple of miles away make the present island escape proof? Nobody can swim? Build a raft? Steal a sub?On a small island "roughly twice the size of Alcatraz," it would be pretty easy for the Others to find him before he had an opportunity to get very far.

Maybe all of these things could have been explained to the audiences satisfaction, but they didn't bother. At the end, it just left me scratching my head in disbelief and wondering what I had just watched...None of it confused me at all. The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

None of it confused me at all. The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

Well said, brutha :biggrin:

The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

The smartest thing i think i have heard a member of this board say. :biggrin:

Start with Ben saying 'the only way to get a con-man's respect...' Huh? They want Sawyers respect? We're the ones getting conned here...

The first thing to do is stop taking the show personally. Just a TV show man, watch it or don't, but don't sit around thinking that because you don't understand it that it's a con of some kind. It's a story that we are in the midst of, nothing else. Some times you have to stick around until the end of a story to understand all of it. That doesn't make it any less enjoyable.

Sawyer was either stabbed thru the chest with a cardiac horse needle or he wasn't - he would know. We don't. I don't think that is the way to give an anesthetic, is it? It certainly might stop the heart, but what then restarts it? No crash cart there...

So, we have a giant hatch implosion, a scotsman who sees the future, crazy time island with a big black smoke monster, and you're picking out this scene to have a problem with? ;) I'm just kidding with you. The scene was not really supposed to make sense, it was supposed to be scary and strange, and you were supposed to question what was happening. I think we DO know that Sawyer got stuck.

Why does Pickett keep yelling 'do you love him?' to Kate? Why does that matter when he just wants revenge? And why does he stop?

The man just had the woman he loves die right in front of him, LOVE was on his mind, and in the end love stayed his hand where killing Sawyer was concerned. Jesus, the guy walks away balling his eyes out, he's heartbroken, I'm suprised anyone would need this explained. He wasn't after "revenge" he was lashing out. Big difference.

How does Sawyer go about getting out of the Federal Prison by having his sentence commuted for recovery of funds. Warden's don't do that, only the Attorney General, or Above make those decisions. The warden isn't going to care, he's got a different job. So, Sawyer just goes to the warden and offers his services...? (Why is Sawyer in a federal pen?)

Creative license is a thing writers use to make stuff happens that may not be factually accurate, but for the purposes of the story, it serves an end. Again, you're focusing on this while we have some pretty crazy unbelievable things going on.

By the way, I think it was more that they appoached Sawyer with the deal, but what does it really matter? You can just as easily assume the warden was a pawn of the feds as much as Sawyer was. The warden was a middle man who got nothing out of the deal.

Why does the guy smart enough to snatch $10m from the government think his wife hiring a PI is going to find the money that the Feds couldn't? And then tell a conman with 6 years left to go on his sentence. How does he think Sawyer is going to help him, really?

Did you go the bathroom a lot or what? How did you miss the meaning here? They scared the guy into believing he'd lose the money, then his life, so he felt like he needed Sawyer's help. He was scared and desperate, and they gave him no where else to turn. PI's have criminal connections in some cases, and in others bend the law to get the job done. He thinks Sawyer can use his connections to move the money to a new secure location, and I'm betting was more than willing to risk it, because if the warden got the cash, the warden would have let the other prisoners beat him to death. Or so he thought because of the con the feds were running on him that Sawyer was a part of.

Why does seeing an island a couple of miles away make the present island escape proof? Nobody can swim? Build a raft? Steal a sub?

Yeah, lets consider that the others have a submarine, you'd never make it if you tried to swim. Lets consdier the others have weapons and people willing to use them guarding the boats and subs, and probably an airplane. How are you gonna' build a raft? Unless you escape without them knowing it for hours and manage to have a saw, twine, and other tools to construct the raft, but then you have to find the materials too, and that chop them up. It won't matter, the island is wired and the others will always be able to catch up with you if you try and get out.

That doesn't mean Sawyer won't keep looking for a way out. He will.

Maybe all of these things could have been explained to the audiences satisfaction, but they didn't bother. At the end, it just left me scratching my head in disbelief and wondering what I had just watched...

You mean to your satisfaction, the show was certainly "explained" to my satisfaction, but then I enjoy not being spoon fed my stories. I enjoy inferring the meaning of thigns and coming to my own conclusions. I enjoy being told stories, watcing stories, and reading stories. I very rarely enjoy having stories "explained".

Worst of all was that Kate couldn't escape until she had jeans to wear...

Did you even hear what she said? She'd been looking at the bars for awhile, it just happened that after she had jeans was when she decided to try it out. It's not like that dress was going to last her anyway. They had to give her jeans at some point.

I'm sure some feel that each of these has an explanation that is implied, but that is the problem in a nutshell. That somehow felt like a 2 hour episode chopped into an hour.

Wow, I could not disagree with you more. While I feel it was a bit uneven as an episode I felt like they paced the story pretty well. I certainly didn't feel like I missed anything.

But I'm not watching the show looking explanations. Right now the story is about questions not answers. It's about the problems right now, not the solutions.

Ultimately this show is about the characters anyway, the island being one of them. It wraps the characters in mysteries, and doles out the "explanations" in small doses to keep us intrigued, and they try to work those answers into the tapestry of the narrative.

This isn't a new thing for the show! :)

Oldwiz, I think you better brace yourself to be confused more and more, I have a feeling this is going to be a mystery heavy season!

The man just had the woman he loves die right in front of him, LOVE was on his mind, and in the end love stayed his hand where killing Sawyer was concerned. Jesus, the guy walks away balling his eyes out, he's heartbroken, I'm suprised anyone would need this explained. He wasn't after "revenge" he was lashing out. Big difference.


I have to disagree with this. I think it was pretty clear he DID want revenge. And I truly don't understand why Kate saying she loved Sawyer would make Pickett STOP beating him. From Pickett's perspective, Kate and Sawyer's "team" killed someone he loved; therefore, it would seem to me that he would want to do the same to them, and Kate's admission would only spur him on to keep beating Sawyer. The only thing I can think of is that Pickett was under orders NOT to kill him, but just wanted them to know how he was feeling.

RodimusBen and Noeland:

I am glad you were satisfied with the implied explanations. The comments about being 'intellectual involved and not being spoon-fed explanations' are both false and inappropriate, IMO. If I wasn't intellectually involved, the things I noted as 'odd' would not have bothered me. Not being 'spoon-fed' information is either a reference about my intelligence or my ability to suspend disbelief, I am going to assume you meant the latter. I did find it difficult to suspend disbelief, to a greater or lesser degree, on each of the points I mentioned.
I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain your individual take on each of those situations as I do find that both interesting and illuminating. I am sure there are those that agree with your assessments and those that don't, which is what I was hoping to find out. Thank you.
BTW, Noeland, I was joking about Kate waiting for jeans before she climbed out - as that has been mentioned (sarcastically) several times by other people in various threads. I would have enjoyed watching Kate climb out in the dress but the writers took that away was my only point - I'm a dirty old man...

Oldwiz

None of it confused me at all. The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

Oh don't doubt the level of intellectual involvement from most of the posters on the fuselage, It's what makes so many glaring errors in the scripts be pointed out.

Why does everyone always think we want to be spoon-fed information? We don't want a full episode detailing the monster or anything; We just want some logic reasoning behind everything the characters do. If you think for instance Hurley watching is loved one die, have his 3 'leader' people abudcted next to him, be sent back to camp alone knowing full well the horrors that lurk (Including the polar bear), and THEN calmly making a fruit salad and walking around without a care is normal human behaviour...

Why does Pickett keep yelling 'do you love him?' to Kate? Why does that matter when he just wants revenge? And why does he stop?


I'm guessing that the very reason the Losties are there is to get Jack. Ben has seen the interaction between Jack, Kate, and Swayer. He wants to push Kate with James. In doing this maybe he can create a bond with Jack and Juliet. he hopes that Jack will help the person with the spine problem.

How does this come back to Pickett? He is blaming his GF/wife's death on the "Plan". In and act of frustration and rage he forces Kate to admit her love for James (but she doesn’t/ her reaction is purely an act to save James from further abuse)..... follow?

As far as the other stuff goes? I couldn’t tell you. we are watching the same thing.... and after two years I am still lost.

I'm guessing that the very reason the Losties are there is to get Jack. Ben has seen the interaction between Jack, Kate, and Swayer. He wants to push Kate with James. In doing this maybe he can create a bond with Jack and Juliet. he hopes that Jack will help the person with the spine problem.

How does this come back to Pickett? He is blaming his GF/wife's death on the "Plan". In and act of frustration and rage he forces Kate to admit her love for James (but she doesn’t/ her reaction is purely an act to save James from further abuse)..... follow?

As far as the other stuff goes? I couldn’t tell you. we are watching the same thing.... and after two years I am still lost.

I must say this is an idea I hadn't even considered. It does make a certain
sense of out an 'un-sensical' situation, doesn't it? Of all the 'odd' things I mentioned, 'Picketts Charge' (not the beating, the whole 'Do you love him?' thing) baffled me the most. Thanks for sharing.

Oldwiz

The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

Fanwankery[/URL] is their excuse for sloppy writing? Oh please.

The comments about being 'intellectual involved and not being spoon-fed explanations' are both false and inappropriate, IMO. If I wasn't intellectually involved, the things I noted as 'odd' would not have bothered me. Not being 'spoon-fed' information is either a reference about my intelligence or my ability to suspend disbelief, I am going to assume you meant the latter. I did find it difficult to suspend disbelief, to a greater or lesser degree, on each of the points I mentioned.

Actually, it was neither. You seem to have taken personally a comment that was not about you at all, but was rather about the show itself. My assertion was that Lost requires a certain level of intellectual involvement on the part of the viewer, involvement that is often not lived up to because it is not required by the vast majority of other tripe on television. I believe that the writers leave it to the audience to fill in certain blanks in the show in order to make it less plodding, and more focused on character development and mythology as opposed to petty plot details. I see this as a strength of the show, rather than a weakness. Others are free to disagree, call it laziness, whatever. But I highly doubt that writers this talented are making glaring errors as opposed to simply narrowing the focus of the show.

Again, this was in no way a comment about you or any other individual.

Oh don't doubt the level of intellectual involvement from most of the posters on the fuselage, It's what makes so many glaring errors in the scripts be pointed out.

I don't equate nitpicking with intellectual involvement. Nitpicking involves a cynical perspective in which one assumes that if one can somehow find mistakes in another's creative work, they can make themselves appear or feel superior to the creator of that work. At the end of the day it's no different from the guy throwing tomatoes at the stage from the audience, and has little, if anything, to do with intellectual involvement with a show.

If you think for instance Hurley watching is loved one die, have his 3 'leader' people abudcted next to him, be sent back to camp alone knowing full well the horrors that lurk (Including the polar bear), and THEN calmly making a fruit salad and walking around without a care is normal human behaviour...

I think it's a little arrogant to presume to speak for how others cope with loss and stressful situations. When my grandfather died, I went to see a big summer blockbuster film with my family the very next day. The point was to have some temporary escapism from the situation we were all coping with. People grieve and cope in different ways.

I think it's a little arrogant to presume to speak for how others cope with loss and stressful situations. When my grandfather died, I went to see a big summer blockbuster film with my family the very next day. The point was to have some temporary escapism from the situation we were all coping with. People grieve and cope in different ways.

While I don't think it's necessarily arrogant to question, which is all I think the OP intended for this thread, I do agree that this is normal for Hurley. It's actually one of a few examples of character consistency from season 1. Hurley is afraid of losing it. His first tangible contribution to the survivors' situation was to inject a bit of normalcy into their outrageous circumstances by building the golf course, something that others first found utterly bizarre. Yet, it proved to be quite practical in light of Hurley's explanation.

From the transcript at losthatch.com:

Hurley: Welcome, to the first and hopefully last, Island open.
Jack: What?
Hurley: It's 2 holes, for now. 3 par, and no waiting.
Jack: Hurley, you built a golf course?
Hurley: Rich idiots fly to tropical islands all the time to whack balls around.
Michael: All the stuff we've got to deal with, man. This is what you've been wasting your time on?
Hurley: Dudes, listen. Our lives suck. Everyone's nerves are stretched to the max. I mean, we're lost on an island, running from boars and monsters... freakin' polar bears.
Michael: Polar bears?
Charlie: You didn't hear about the polar bears?
Hurley: Look, all I'm saying is, if we're stuck here, then just surviving's not going to cut it. We need some kind of relief, you know. We need some way that we can... you know have fun. That's right, fun. Or else we're just going to go crazy waiting for the next bad thing to happen.

and...

Jack: Wasn't me, all Hurley. I've been going crazy trying to make everyone feel safe. I haven't been sleeping because I want everyone to feel safe. And he builds a golf course and everyone feels safe.

I think it's just an example of how Hurley copes. When he's really freaked out he tries to do something normal. He may have the best coping strategy of anyone on that island.
100%
I don't equate nitpicking with intellectual involvement. Nitpicking involves a cynical perspective in which one assumes that if one can somehow find mistakes in another's creative work, they can make themselves appear or feel superior to the creator of that work. At the end of the day it's no different from the guy throwing tomatoes at the stage from the audience, and has little, if anything, to do with intellectual involvement with a show.

Okay, one more thing. My previous post was wearing my fan hat. Now I'm putting on my mod hat. After rereading this comment, I have to say it's pretty rude, and it has been reported as such. It is a gross generalization of a whole segment of fans that is insulting in numerous ways, and not what we are here to discuss. Please keep your discussion focused on the show and not other fans. Thank you.

Slightly OT:

Charlie: You didn't hear about the polar bears?

So when did Charlie forget about the plural in polar bears?

Shootfire:

I'm curious. Did you understand why Pickett's was shouting 'do you love him?' to Kate while beating on Sawyer? Nothing odd or 'off-kilter' about it?

Oldwiz

Shootfire:

I'm curious. Did you understand why Pickett's was shouting 'do you love him?' to Kate while beating on Sawyer? Nothing odd or 'off-kilter' about it?

Oldwiz

Well, I can see how some might think it a contrived scene. I also think we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Does Pickett know that Sawyer was ecstatic over Colleen's injuries?

Personally, I think it's part of a plan (on Pickett's part) to kill Sawyer, and he wants to make sure someone is going to hurt as badly as he is hurting over Colleen's death. Tom mentioned to Ben that "Danny wants to kill him." Notice, Ben didn't say no. He just said Danny could wait, I'm assuming until Ben's plan for Sawyer has concluded. I guess I'm just seeing it as the first volley in a grudge match, now that the grudge is established. Prior to this I don't think Pickett was really personally invested in making Sawyer suffer, even though Sawyer was clearly picking at him. Until Colleen's death, I think he just considered Sawyer a thorn in his side, but now he's angry with all of the losties, and in particular Sawyer. He's going to take it out on Sawyer when he gets his chance, and if he can make someone else (Kate) suffer too, all the better. So yeah, venting, but a set up for future events as well. :twocents:

ETA: I do think it was kind of framed as a big shipper scene, but I think it's going to be a key plotpoint as well.

RodimusBen and Noeland:

I am glad you were satisfied with the implied explanations. The comments about being 'intellectual involved and not being spoon-fed explanations' are both false and inappropriate, IMO.
Oldwiz

It's not about whether or not one is intellectually-involved or wanting to be spoon-fed. The problem is that when you're not emotionally-involved in the story, you're more likely to notice faulty logic and errors, and to be less forgiving of things that (on the surface) don't make sense. I've noticed it myself while watching Lost. When I'm really digging an episode on an emotional level, when I'm really on the edge of my seat about whether a character is going to make it out of a situation, I tend not to notice things like continuity errors or say, Hurley showing up at the beach camp and making fruit salad instead of running around in a panic about J/K/S being kidnapped.

I had a lot of problems with Every Man For Himself, and I think much of the reason is that I just wasn't that engaged in the emotional story going on between Sawyer and Kate, or the con going on between Ben and Sawyer. The emotional arcs of these stories just didn't do it for me and so I disengaged on that level and started noticing things like it being dark when Ben woke Sawyer up to show him the "second" island and yet, when they got to the cliff, it was already daylight -- and this on an island (according to Ben) that is only about a half a mile wide. Okay...

And for what it's worth, I think it's perfectly okay to dislike an episode on Lost without having to defend yourself or your intelligence or your supposed lack of understanding for the series. Just because someone has a problem with an episode or two doesn't mean they don't love the series as a whole. Lots of people on this site hated the character of Ana-Lucia and I doubt they were told to just go find another series to watch that is "less challenging" or whatever. Lost is a great show and sharing our collective obsession with it is all in good fun, folks. I enjoy discussing the problems of the show as much as I enjoy going over all the intricate mysteries. And if I was disappointed in EMFH, it doesn't mean I'm not going to love the next one. Cheers!

LordoftheFlies:

What an excellent analysis and probably hits the nail right on the head for me and my response to this episode. Are you a shrink?
I did enjoy the Jack and Juliet interaction and while I normally enjoy everything about Sawyer, I felt disconnected on this occasion. Things just didn't resonate as they normally have.
I would like to go on record as saying that Lost is my favorite show since the X-Files in its heyday (even more so than Farscape) and I'm concerned about the show's future and it's loss of viewers. My comments actually are motivated in part by the vain, and probably futile, hope that 'someone' might be watching and listening to fan response (plus my need to get it off my chest now and then).
Thanks for the articulate and insightful post.

Oldwiz

Okay, one more thing. My previous post was wearing my fan hat. Now I'm putting on my mod hat. After rereading this comment, I have to say it's pretty rude, and it has been reported as such. It is a gross generalization of a whole segment of fans that is insulting in numerous ways, and not what we are here to discuss. Please keep your discussion focused on the show and not other fans. Thank you.

You're absolutely right. While I stand by my statements, this is not the arena for them. I certainly don't want to become a person who contributes negativity to a place I've come to enjoy so much. I apologize to anyone who I upset with what I said.

Regarding Pickett, while it does seem a little strange that Sawyer has become the focus of his rage, I think it serves as a good parallel to Sawyer's "us vs. them" mentality. I think one of the points the writers are trying to drive home this season is that it's never as black and white as "our team" and "their team." There are good people on both sides of anything, and unequivocally categorizing our enemy as "evil" is just not going to work as a solution to problems. In "Every Man For Himself" we can see how people on both "sides"-- the Other and the Losties-- revel in the misfortune of the other "team," and I think it quite beautifully illustrates the problem with that way of thinking.

Well, I can see how some might think it a contrived scene. I also think we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Does Pickett know that Sawyer was ecstatic over Colleen's injuries?

ETA: I do think it was kind of framed as a big shipper scene, but I think it's going to be a key plotpoint as well.

Thanks. I certainly missed a piece of the puzzle and agree with you that it's going to be a key plotpoint of some kind. Which is why I was/am concerned about not understanding it's significance.

Oldwiz

There are good people on both sides of anything, and unequivocally categorizing our enemy as "evil" is just not going to work as a solution to problems.

Quoted for truthiness on more than one level.

Thanks. I certainly missed a piece of the puzzle and agree with you that it's going to be a key plotpoint of some kind. Which is why I was/am concerned about not understanding it's significance.

Oldwiz

Yeah, for the moment I'm thinking of it as a set-up for a kind of "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" scenario. Pickett killing Sawyer would be for Colleen, and making Kate feel the pain that he is feeling would be for himself. The first step to making Kate feel that pain, is to push her toward acceptance of her feelings for Sawyer, a point Pickett had already reached with Colleen. Clearly Ben is planning to exploit their feelings, and I think Pickett is planning to twist the knife when all is said and done...if it gets that far.;)

Worst of all was that Kate couldn't escape until she had jeans to wear...


They are magical, bad-behind restoring, confidence building, monkey bar climbing jeans. Jeez, :rolleyes: EVERYONE knows that!

I'm guessing that the very reason the Losties are there is to get Jack. Ben has seen the interaction between Jack, Kate, and Swayer. He wants to push Kate with James. In doing this maybe he can create a bond with Jack and Juliet. he hopes that Jack will help the person with the spine problem.
But Jack is a doctor, took the Hippocratic oath, and as such it's very likely that he would have performed the surgery voluntarily if they had simply gone to him and asked. Given his profession and his obsession with fixing people, it would have been nearly impossible for him to refuse. Why go through all the torture and mind games?

My assertion was that Lost requires a certain level of intellectual involvement on the part of the viewer, involvement that is often not lived up to because it is not required by the vast majority of other tripe on television. I believe that the writers leave it to the audience to fill in certain blanks in the show in order to make it less plodding, and more focused on character development and mythology as opposed to petty plot details. I see this as a strength of the show, rather than a weakness.
Absolutely, and that's the reason I have watched Lost faithfully for two+ years when I normally don't watch television at all or grow bored with other series after a few eps. But in order for this to work, the viewer has to feel that--based upon the information we've been given AND based upon the characters' personalites as they've been shown to us--it's possible to put all the pieces together without abandoning logic.

Okay, before this thread devolves into something else entirely, can we please get back to the topic? Old Wiz raised a lot of questions in the OP, questions that are worth talking about. This is not the rate this episode thread, and it's not the eh thread. We don't need duplicates of them. This thread is supposed to be about the episode and the questions Old Wiz has about it. Let's get back to that. Thank you.

If you think for instance Hurley watching is loved one die, have his 3 'leader' people abudcted next to him, be sent back to camp alone knowing full well the horrors that lurk (Including the polar bear), and THEN calmly making a fruit salad and walking around without a care is normal human behaviour...

It may be just me but in my view that is normal behavior for Hurley cause food is the way he copes.

Thanks, Shootfire:

OK, Pickett's Charge has had several explanations presented, all of which were valid, but somewhat different, and made sense given the context the individual viewer supplied (which was my point/concern).
Let me hasten to add that the use of leaving something to the viewer's imagination is a useful and effective plot device if used properly. If not, it inevitably leads to differing points of view and potential disappointment if the particular viewer's imagination was not in concert with the writer's intent.

The second most perplexing issue to me was the Cardiac Horse Needle in the chest and why we, the viewers were left to guess whether it happened or not (given the total incongruity of the use of the cardiac needle as an anesthetic to put a pacemaker in). My imagination told me that, if it had been used as implied, it would have killed Sawyer as icepicks, knives, large sharp objects of any kind inserted into the heart is not a good thing for a normal, beating heart. Sawyer obviously knew whether they did it or not (unless we assume he fainted from fright), so why were we left to imagine what happened?
I would appreciate hearing any other points of view on this.

Oldwiz

But in order for this to work, the viewer has to feel that--based upon the information we've been given AND based upon the characters' personalites as they've been shown to us--it's possible to put all the pieces together without abandoning logic.

My view is that the logic is there even if it isn't immediately apparent. I have faith that eventually we will be shown the logic and I will enjoy the oh why didn't I see that moment and laugh at myself.

My view is that the logic is there even if it isn't immediately apparent. I have faith that eventually we will be shown the logic and I will enjoy the oh why didn't I see that moment and laugh at myself.

You are a refreshing person of optimism and faith, but did any of the items I listed at the beginning of the thread bother or confuse you at all?

Oldwiz

Thanks, Shootfire:

OK, Pickett's Charge has had several explanations presented, all of which were valid, but somewhat different, and made sense given the context the individual viewer supplied (which was my point/concern).
Let me hasten to add that the use of leaving something to the viewer's imagination is a useful and effective plot device if used properly. If not, it inevitably leads to differing points of view and potential disappointment if the particular viewer's imagination was not in concert with the writer's intent.

That is a good point, but I think it's a strategy that has purpose, controversy by design. If we all agreed on everything we saw, we wouldn't have near as much to talk about on these boards. As I see it, leaving things open to interpretation is a means to get viewers involved in the show on a level unprecedented in television. The flip side of the coin is that while it gets viewers involved, it also occasionally makes them very angry. Whatever you want to say about the show, you cannot say that its viewers are not a passionate lot. :biggrin: Whether that is for good or for ill is totally open for debate, I suppose, but it's human nature to try to make sense of what we see. Even if the sense we make of it is that it's utter garbage, we're all still doing the same thing.;)

The second most perplexing issue to me was the Cardiac Horse Needle in the chest and why we, the viewers were left to guess whether it happened or not (given the total incongruity of the use of the cardiac needle as an anesthetic to put a pacemaker in). My imagination told me that, if it had been used as implied, it would have killed Sawyer as icepicks, knives, large sharp objects of any kind inserted into the heart is not a good thing for a normal, beating heart. Sawyer obviously knew whether they did it or not (unless we assume he fainted from fright), so why were we left to imagine what happened?
I would appreciate hearing any other points of view on this.


:teehee: That kind of bugged me too. First, I wasn't aware that there was a needle that could actually puncture the sternum. Don't surgeons use saws to get through the sternum? BTW, I never saw a red mark on Sawyer's sternum either. He had an incision in about the right spot for a pacemaker, but no visible puncture mark over his sternum. (I didn't even see any stitches on the incision, did you?) I never believed for a second they were going to put it through his sternum, and it didn't make sense as anesthesia. They gave him a stick for the pain.:biggrin: I'm thinking he was drugged prior to the needle incident just like the bunny, and they just let him wake up long enough to fake him out with the needle and scare him half to death.

Thanks, Shootfire:

OK, Pickett's Charge has had several explanations presented, all of which were valid, but somewhat different, and made sense given the context the individual viewer supplied (which was my point/concern).
Let me hasten to add that the use of leaving something to the viewer's imagination is a useful and effective plot device if used properly. If not, it inevitably leads to differing points of view and potential disappointment if the particular viewer's imagination was not in concert with the writer's intent.

The second most perplexing issue to me was the Cardiac Horse Needle in the chest and why we, the viewers were left to guess whether it happened or not (given the total incongruity of the use of the cardiac needle as an anesthetic to put a pacemaker in). My imagination told me that, if it had been used as implied, it would have killed Sawyer as icepicks, knives, large sharp objects of any kind inserted into the heart is not a good thing for a normal, beating heart. Sawyer obviously knew whether they did it or not (unless we assume he fainted from fright), so why were we left to imagine what happened?
I would appreciate hearing any other points of view on this.

Oldwiz

Hi Oldwiz, You're not alone, I didn't understand why Pickett was shouting at Kate either, and the only thing I can come up with is they were going to do that anyway, they did not expect Colleen to come back half dead on a stretcher so that's irrelevant, the Others do not want Kate near Jack they don't want her to think about him for reasons still unknown , so they are forcing her and Sawyer into physical and emotional situations where they have to look out for each other that inevitably will make them closer and pushing Kate to make the choice they want her to keeping Jack out of sight out of mind. They are greasing the wheels if you like.
Sawyer was gonna get it ! And Pickett has been choosen for the job , although it does seem personal, like Ethan was choosen for Claire. Now the con, I think proffessional conmen like Sawyer pick their pray they know how to convince certain people, Sawyer possibly thought they had put a pacemaker in him as he doesn't know how to take these people he's out of his comfort zone so to speak. it probably didn't even occur to him that they were just trying to get one over on him , so because it seemed he believed it we believed it too. , did they get his respect ? I doubt it. Sawyer has proved he can hold a grudge for many years.
Showing Sawyer the island ? another tricky one, all I can say is they are showing him theres no way off the island, the chances of him getting to the sub undetected are pretty slim, Sawyer knows there are sharks he's already met one if there is more than one Polar bear there is probably more than one shark, Sawyer also knows there is an undercurrent as Joanna drowned taking a swim and it's unknown how many boats they have , I'm guessing they would catch up with him easily, and he'd probably have Kate in tow. They got Karl back pretty quick.
That's really what I gathered from the ep, I try and keep it simple for myself else I'd be googleing everything under the sun LOL. We have 2 more ep's coming hopefully to fill in a few gaps.

He had a bandaid over the supposed puncture mark on his sturnum

He had a bandaid over the supposed puncture mark on his sturnum

Guess I'm going to have to watch that again. I didn't see any bandaid. I saw a little gauze pad over the incision, but not the bandaid.

Does anyone have a screencap?

ETA: I just saw a screencap, and yeah, there's a bandaid. Huh...

And after a little extra reading, there is a way to puncture the sternum with a needle, but it requires a drilling motion. Pretty sure we didn't see an accurate portrayal though. Seems like it's done at an angle, and if they did it...not sure they did...it might have been for a bone marrow sample. :eek:

ETA: Nah...I still don't buy it.

OK, these are all speculations on the needle use. If they did use the needle on a beating heart it stops it, right? And the needle doesn't have to go thru the sternum to reach the heart anymore than a knife blade does (regardless of Pulp Fiction). It also doesn't explain why we were left in the dark.
But, I'll try my hand at the only thing that makes sense to me at this time - Sawyer was given a time-delay sedative like the rabbit (supposedly) and faded to black while they were playing the game with him. That would mean that they didn't actually use the needle and it was just part of the con to terrify him before he went to sleep.
Unfortunately, there were no IV's connected so they must have given him whatever it was while he was still unconcious. Does anyone know of a time-delay knock-out drop with no preliminary effects? I sure don't, but maybe they exist.
None of this occurred to me during the episode, of course.

Oldwiz

OK, these are all speculations on the needle use. If they did use the needle on a beating heart it stops it, right? And the needle doesn't have to go thru the sternum to reach the heart anymore than a knife blade does (regardless of Pulp Fiction). It also doesn't explain why we were left in the dark.
But, I'll try my hand at the only thing that makes sense to me at this time - Sawyer was given a time-delay sedative like the rabbit (supposedly) and faded to black while they were playing the game with him. That would mean that they didn't actually use the needle and it was just part of the con to terrify him before he went to sleep.
Unfortunately, there were no IV's connected so they must have given him whatever it was while he was still unconcious. Does anyone know of a time-delay knock-out drop with no preliminary effects? I sure don't, but maybe they exist.
None of this occurred to me during the episode, of course.

Oldwiz

I'd say if they used the needle without a CT scan or something to guide them he would most likely have died. And no, the needle would not have to go through the sternum to reach the heart. It would more likely hit a major blood vessel, lungs, pleura... The heart does not lie directly beneath the sternum. Seems to me it would be much easier to reach the heart by inserting the needle between the ribs. I don't think the needle had anything to do with the heart.

As far as a time-delay sedative, I don't think that's what they would have used. Getting the rabbit excited was what knocked him out, and the same with Sawyer. Maybe it was something that triggered a vaso-vagal response to excitation? Must do some reading...

ETA: Come to think of it, it makes a lot more sense to ask someone's age and weight to determine the correct dosage of a drug than to determine their resting/active heart rate. I'm guessing they gave him a vasodilator or something.

The writers of this show do not connect all the dots for you. They assume a certain level of intellectual involvement from their audience instead of just spoon-feeding them information.

I agree--as with any show.

But what you said just reminded me of the Further Instructions
espiode

Man..they really dumbed down that episode. I kept thinking whoever wrote this one had no faith in the audience. Just watch it again. They keep repeating and explaining everything we already know to eachother. I was saying to myself.. with only a certain amount of dialog per show..they waste it telling eachother what WE, the audience, already know...which is a big no no/ There are much more clever ways to show that the characters have learned,,then to teach them in front of us.

and also Man..they really dumbed down that episode. I kept thinking whoever wrote this one had no faith in the audience. Just watch it again. They keep repeating and explaining everything we already know to eachother. I was saying to myself.. with only a certain amount of dialog per show..they waste it telling eachother what WE, the audience, already know...which is a big no no/ There are much more clever ways to show that the characters have learned,,then to teach them in front of us.

I hope you got my point...haha. I hope you didnt read to far:biggrin:

What I can't make sense of is why when they captured Clair/Clare? Why didn't they take her to there own island where she couldn't escape? Why take the risk of keeping her on her own island where she could easily escape and get back to her own camp?

What I can't make sense of is why when they captured Clair/Clare? Why didn't they take her to there own island where she couldn't escape? Why take the risk of keeping her on her own island where she could easily escape and get back to her own camp?

I've asked this question as well. It just doesn't make sense. They either have an off-island safe harbor or they don't. And if they're using it for J/K/S, then why didn't they use it for Claire?

As far as a time-delay sedative, I don't think that's what they would have used. Getting the rabbit excited was what knocked him out, and the same with Sawyer. Maybe it was something that triggered a vaso-vagal response to excitation? Must do some reading...
ETA: Come to think of it, it makes a lot more sense to ask someone's age and weight to determine the correct dosage of a drug than to determine their resting/active heart rate. I'm guessing they gave him a vasodilator or something.

OK, that makes sense and would account for the terror-inducing actions with the big needle. I wonder if there is such a drug - knocks you out when your heart rate gets too high? Wouldn't seem to be all that useful, but maybe...? I'd say this is a plausible (with a minor stretch) theory on what happened.

I'm going to have to say again, I do pay close attention, am definitely not stupid, and usually watch each episode at least twice (I Tivo). Given that, I never considered this until our discussions here - probably because I've never heard of a drug that would do anything like this. I'll be curious to see what you will find out...

Oldwiz

**Removed due to mod request earlier in thread**

That's the first and last time I ever post without reading the entire thread! :p

OK, that makes sense and would account for the terror-inducing actions with the big needle. I wonder if there is such a drug - knocks you out when your heart rate gets too high? Wouldn't seem to be all that useful, but maybe...? I'd say this is a plausible (with a minor stretch) theory on what happened.

I'm going to have to say again, I do pay close attention, am definitely not stupid, and usually watch each episode at least twice (I Tivo). Given that, I never considered this until our discussions here - probably because I've never heard of a drug that would do anything like this. I'll be curious to see what you will find out...

Oldwiz

Well, I have two ways of looking at this for the moment. Depending on how much the Others know about Sawyer, they may have played on a needle phobia. Needle phobia can elicit the vasovagal response without any other provocation in someone with that particular weakness. On the other hand, if it were timed exactly right, any number of blood pressure medications could have helped the vasovagal response along. Though, I think it would have to be a short-acting drug, like nitroglycerine. That would explain Ben wanting to know Sawyer's exact age and weight, to calculate a safe dosage. I don't see why he would be so precise about his age and not actually take his pulse for a resting HR. Seems a bit inconsistent at the very least. What's 3 years unless you're reading the recommended dosage for a drug with some pretty specific guidelines? Anyway, that's my take on it.

Well, I have two ways of looking at this for the moment. Depending on how much the Others know about Sawyer, they may have played on a needle phobia. Needle phobia can elicit the vasovagal response without any other provocation in someone with that particular weakness. On the other hand, if it were timed exactly right, any number of blood pressure medications could have helped the vasovagal response along. Though, I think it would have to be a short-acting drug, like nitroglycerine. That would explain Ben wanting to know Sawyer's exact age and weight, to calculate a safe dosage. I don't see why he would be so precise about his age and not actually take his pulse for a resting HR. Seems a bit inconsistent at the very least. What's 3 years unless you're reading the recommended dosage for a drug with some pretty specific guidelines? Anyway, that's my take on it.

Now, the needle-phobia thing would really be great, if true. I've known big strong guys to faint when getting shots (usually just the sight of the needle does it). That would be both ingenious, and funny, sort of. But, we would/should have been given a 'clue' that Sawyer was vulnerable to that.
Otherwise, this knock-out drug theory is the best I've heard so far (even if I don't understand it). I work closely with doctors and will see what they know about this.

Oldwiz

Now, the needle-phobia thing would really be great, if true. I've known big strong guys to faint when getting shots (usually just the sight of the needle does it). That would be both ingenious, and funny, sort of. But, we would/should have been given a 'clue' that Sawyer was vulnerable to that.
Otherwise, this knock-out drug theory is the best I've heard so far (even if I don't understand it). I work closely with doctors and will see what they know about this.

Oldwiz

Yeah, the closest thing to a clue to any kind of needle phobia was Ben saying "God, I hate needles."

The reason I said bloodpressure medicine/nitro is that vasovagal response is caused by a sudden drop in bloodpressure and bradycardia. The only thing I found about artificially inducing vasovagal response involved the use of a tilt table. I guess it's not really considered a good thing to use drugs to cause someone to faint.:rolleyes: ;)

Worst of all was that Kate couldn't escape until she had jeans to wear...

Oldwiz

Hey, have you ever tried climbing and running in a dress? :harhar1:

Yeah, the closest thing to a clue to any kind of needle phobia was Ben saying "God, I hate needles."

The reason I said bloodpressure medicine/nitro is that vasovagal response is caused by a sudden drop in bloodpressure and bradycardia. The only thing I found about artificially inducing vasovagal response involved the use of a tilt table. I guess it's not really considered a good thing to use drugs to cause someone to faint.:rolleyes: ;)

Congrats, you smartie! I just talked to a MD friend and he says you've got it right on the head. Here's a link on vasodepressor syncope (fainting) that covers everything we've been talking about http://www.heartmaine.com/Patient%20Education/Syncope.htm. The upshot being that blood-pressure drugs followed by fear, anxiety, over-excitement will cause it (fainting). They would then have to quickly administer the general anesthetic to keep him under. My friend also said that would be very risky and only an expert anesthesiologist would attempt it.

Of course, nobody but a patient or an MD would really know this, which just supports my assertion that they've been cutting explanatory stuff for whatever reason (there's speculation over in the spoilers about just that, BTW).

Oldwiz
100%
Hey, have you ever tried climbing and running in a dress? :harhar1:
Well, yes, actually. But I was very young and confused at the time...:biggrin:
But, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching young, shapely ladies attempt it...:hypocrit:

Oldwiz

Congrats, you smartie! I just talked to a MD friend and he says you've got it right on the head. Here's a link on vasodepressor syncope (fainting) that covers everything we've been talking about http://www.heartmaine.com/Patient%20Education/Syncope.htm. The upshot being that blood-pressure drugs followed by fear, anxiety, over-excitement will cause it (fainting). They would then have to quickly administer the general anesthetic to keep him under. My friend also said that would be very risky and only an expert anesthesiologist would attempt it.

Of course, nobody but a patient or an MD would really know this, which just supports my assertion that they've been cutting explanatory stuff for whatever reason (there's speculation over in the spoilers about just that, BTW).

Oldwiz
100%


Yay! I'm a smartie? Do I get another badge? Awww...somebody just whispered in my ear that it only makes up for one of the other 400 theories I've had that turned out to be WRONG! :doh:

Well, yes, actually. But I was very young and confused at the time...:biggrin:
But, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching young, shapely ladies attempt it...:hypocrit:

:24:

Shootfire:

Yes, you get a badge from me (on several different levels) as an official 'smartie'. That gives us 1 plausible solution, and one definite solution on my list. Want to tackle the Prison Con thing? That's probably easier than this last one, but it has some definite continuity questions about it, in my mind.

Oldwiz

Shootfire:

Yes, you get a badge from me (on several different levels) as an official 'smartie'. That gives us 1 plausible solution, and one definite solution on my list. Want to tackle the Prison Con thing? That's probably easier than this last one, but it has some definite continuity questions about it, in my mind.

Oldwiz

Sure. This is a fun thread! I do have some thoughts on it, but I kind of need to read the transcript for TLC before I comment in depth.

There were a couple of issues I had with the "Prison Con thing." First and foremost, why was Sawyer in a federal prison? Didn't he say that Cassidy pressed charges? Do the victims of federal crimes get to press charges? Or is it the Fed that decides if someone will be prosecuted? I suppose that may be a relatively minor detail, but it bugs me. The one thing I can think of that would have landed Sawyer in federal prison in relation to that crime is tax evasion. Do you recall the warden saying, (paraphrasing) you remember so-and-so from the Treasury Department, don't you? So, Sawyer had met that guy prior to the con. I'm thinking that, like the CIA enlisting Sayid's help to catch a terrorist, the Treasury Dept. may have enlisted Sawyer's help catching a big time white collar criminal, with the promise of a commuted sentence if he was successful. I don't think the warden was in it for personal gain. That was just part of Sawyer's con. In fact, I think he was reluctant about the whole thing. Remember that line about making one phone call to extend his stay? Someone mentioned, maybe it was you, that wardens don't get to make those kinds of decisions, whether it's commuting or extending a sentence. OTOH, if the warden called the Treasury Dept. and indicated that Sawyer was trying to pull something, that could possibly happen. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head. Will read transcripts and see if I have a new take on it.

Sure. This is a fun thread! I do have some thoughts on it, but I kind of need to read the transcript for TLC before I comment in depth.

There were a couple of issues I had with the "Prison Con thing." First and foremost, why was Sawyer in a federal prison? Didn't he say that Cassidy pressed charges? Do the victims of federal crimes get to press charges? Or is it the Fed that decides if someone will be prosecuted? I suppose that may be a relatively minor detail, but it bugs me. The one thing I can think of that would have landed Sawyer in federal prison in relation to that crime is tax evasion. Do you recall the warden saying, (paraphrasing) you remember so-and-so from the Treasury Department, don't you? So, Sawyer had met that guy prior to the con. I'm thinking that, like the CIA enlisting Sayid's help to catch a terrorist, the Treasury Dept. may have enlisted Sawyer's help catching a big time white collar criminal, with the promise of a commuted sentence if he was successful. I don't think the warden was in it for personal gain. That was just part of Sawyer's con. In fact, I think he was reluctant about the whole thing. Remember that line about making one phone call to extend his stay? Someone mentioned, maybe it was you, that wardens don't get to make those kinds of decisions, whether it's commuting or extending a sentence. OTOH, if the warden called the Treasury Dept. and indicated that Sawyer was trying to pull something, that could possibly happen. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head. Will read transcripts and see if I have a new take on it.

Those points were essentially the things I had problems with also. Let's start a list if issues:
1. Why was Sawyer in a federal pen? The crime would have to involve interstate issues. Cassidy 'pressing charges' wouldn't apply to tax issues, I don't think. And convictions on tax evasion generally take years. Maybe 'fleeing to evade prosecution', I don't know if that's federal or not.
2. They showed us the scene where Sawyer learns about Munson from his buddy, and shortly thereafter the con starts. This is where all the details/complexity were left out and a huge gap was left. I find it unlikely that Sawyer was such a 'well-known' con artist that the Treasury Dept (or even the warden) would even know about him, let alone seek his help. So, the alternative is that he went to the warden and volunteered.
3. I was the one that said that warden's don't have the power to commute sentences, and in the case of a federal issue, it would have to be a U.S. Attorney or above. The Treasury department guy could recommend, but not approve, commuting a sentence. This process would have taken quite some time, I'm sure.
4. We were led to believe that the warden was corrupt and doing the con to gain the money. That was impossible under the circumstances and yet there are posters all over the board that think the warden actually did perpetrate the con.
5. I found it ludicrous that this guy believed first that Sawyer would/could move the money, and second would do so without taking it. WTF? That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I believe Sawyer getting women to succumb to his charms, but a male, not for a second... Why did this guy think that his wife hiring a PI would find the money when the feds couldn't?
6. Finally, I found it hard to swallow that the Feds would commute a 6 year sentence to recover a mere 10 million dollars (to the government, that's nothing...) and then give him a finder's fee on top. That's a minor point, but it was the cherry on top.

The whole package seemed so contrived that I couldn't believe any of it. Run with that for a while...

Oldwiz

I have to disagree with this. I think it was pretty clear he DID want revenge. And I truly don't understand why Kate saying she loved Sawyer would make Pickett STOP beating him. From Pickett's perspective, Kate and Sawyer's "team" killed someone he loved; therefore, it would seem to me that he would want to do the same to them, and Kate's admission would only spur him on to keep beating Sawyer. The only thing I can think of is that Pickett was under orders NOT to kill him, but just wanted them to know how he was feeling.

Personally, I think it's part of a plan (on Pickett's part) to kill Sawyer, and he wants to make sure someone is going to hurt as badly as he is hurting over Colleen's death. Tom mentioned to Ben that "Danny wants to kill him." Notice, Ben didn't say no. He just said Danny could wait, I'm assuming until Ben's plan for Sawyer has concluded. I guess I'm just seeing it as the first volley in a grudge match, now that the grudge is established. Prior to this I don't think Pickett was really personally invested in making Sawyer suffer, even though Sawyer was clearly picking at him. Until Colleen's death, I think he just considered Sawyer a thorn in his side, but now he's angry with all of the losties, and in particular Sawyer. He's going to take it out on Sawyer when he gets his chance, and if he can make someone else (Kate) suffer too, all the better. So yeah, venting, but a set up for future events as well.

Hi Oldwiz, You're not alone, I didn't understand why Pickett was shouting at Kate either, and the only thing I can come up with is they were going to do that anyway, they did not expect Colleen to come back half dead on a stretcher so that's irrelevant, the Others do not want Kate near Jack they don't want her to think about him for reasons still unknown , so they are forcing her and Sawyer into physical and emotional situations where they have to look out for each other that inevitably will make them closer and pushing Kate to make the choice they want her to keeping Jack out of sight out of mind. They are greasing the wheels if you like.

I think that in his initial moment of adrenaline, Pickett fully intended to kill Sawyer, as a way to get "revenge" for the Losties (yes, I know it was Sun, but in Pickett's mind he held all of them responsible) killing Colleen.

The only reason he began screaming "Do you love him?!" at Kate was to give himself a psychological excuse to spare Sawyer's life. You see, even amid Pickett's own burst of rage, Pickett still reminded himself that he was one of "the good guys" and his group was supposed to be above killing people out of bloodlust. So he gave himself an emotional out: as long as Kate had the same degree of love for Sawyer that Pickett had for his late Colleen (and if Kate was willing to admit those feelings out loud), Pickett would allow himself to have mercy on Sawyer.

If Kate hadn't conceded that she loved Sawyer, it's very likely that Pickett would have gone through with killing Sawyer (unless Benry, Zeke, & Friends intervened in time).

Whether or not Kate actually loves Sawyer is beside the point: even if she was just saying it to get Pickett to stop beating on Sawyer, it was what Pickett himself needed to hear - - in that heated moment - - to adjust his own actions and internally persuade himself that there was some value in keeping Sawyer alive, after all.

I believe Sawyer getting women to succumb to his charms, but a male, not for a second...
Totally agree with ya OldWiz. And honestly, I had too many probs to even mention with this episode. :undecide:

Those points were essentially the things I had problems with also. Let's start a list if issues:
1. Why was Sawyer in a federal pen? The crime would have to involve interstate issues. Cassidy 'pressing charges' wouldn't apply to tax issues, I don't think. And convictions on tax evasion generally take years. Maybe 'fleeing to evade prosecution', I don't know if that's federal or not.

Okay, I think I may have this one figured out. Say Cassidy pressed charges at the local level. In the course of the investigation, they would have found out about Gordy. That money would have to be laundered, and Gordy being Sawyer's backer, seems like a likely candidate for the job. The money laundering would make it federal.

2. They showed us the scene where Sawyer learns about Munson from his buddy, and shortly thereafter the con starts. This is where all the details/complexity were left out and a huge gap was left. I find it unlikely that Sawyer was such a 'well-known' con artist that the Treasury Dept (or even the warden) would even know about him, let alone seek his help. So, the alternative is that he went to the warden and volunteered.

Agreed, Sawyer would not be a "well-known" con, but if they had him in their sites already, and he had been cooperative in the past...just thinking out loud here.;) Also, it seems to me that if his friend offered information about Munson, he wouldn't be in a position to say..."oh yeah, I know all about him." Besides, he would want all of the information available, not just what he was fed by the Treasury Dept. But yeah, it would have been nice to know if Sawyer already had Munson on his radar...some indication. I might need to watch this again.:biggrin:

3. I was the one that said that warden's don't have the power to commute sentences, and in the case of a federal issue, it would have to be a U.S. Attorney or above. The Treasury department guy could recommend, but not approve, commuting a sentence. This process would have taken quite some time, I'm sure.

Thing is, we don't know how long this plan was cooking. How long had Sawyer been in prison? Do we know how long Munson had been there? Guess I need to read the transcript for this epi too.

4. We were led to believe that the warden was corrupt and doing the con to gain the money. That was impossible under the circumstances and yet there are posters all over the board that think the warden actually did perpetrate the con.

I don't buy it. He did not look happy when he "congratulated" Sawyer on lying and cheating his way out of prison.

5. I found it ludicrous that this guy believed first that Sawyer would/could move the money, and second would do so without taking it. WTF? That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I believe Sawyer getting women to succumb to his charms, but a male, not for a second... Why did this guy think that his wife hiring a PI would find the money when the feds couldn't?

While it does seem implausible, it's the very definition of The Long Con that he gave to Cassidy in TLC. You get someone to ask you to do something for them, and you make the other guy think it was their idea. As for the PI thing? My guess is he might have thought a PI wouldn't have the legal restraints that the feds would have. From his perspective, she wouldn't be trying to prosecute him. She would be trying to get her hands on the money, so all bets are off on playing by the rules.

6. Finally, I found it hard to swallow that the Feds would commute a 6 year sentence to recover a mere 10 million dollars (to the government, that's nothing...) and then give him a finder's fee on top. That's a minor point, but it was the cherry on top.

True, 10 million dollars is not so much to the feds. It's still a bigger deal than 80,000 600,000 though.

ETA: Whoops!

OldWiz, firstly, I just wanted to say that you have some really legitimate questions there, I will however only have a minor go at three of them


Sawyer was either stabbed thru the chest with a cardiac horse needle or he wasn't - he would know. We don't. I don't think that is the way to give an anesthetic, is it? It certainly might stop the heart, but what then restarts it? No crash cart there...


There is no way that two inexperinced guys stuck that horse needle into Sawyers chest, it was not an anesthetic and it was purely to frighten the bejesus out of Sawyer (as you have all pointed out)...and imo the fade to black was Sawyer passing out and I know you guys don't think he would have without some drug (and that is a possiblity) but remember Sawyer is pretty sensitive re anything medical so I'm sticking with the fact that he just plain passed out....I have seen strong grown men pass out before giving them a simple needle in the arm and in the maternity ward I have had to tend to hubbies who have passed out while their wives were in labour....sorry if that burst your bubble guys :biggrin:


Why does Pickett keep yelling 'do you love him?' to Kate? Why does that matter when he just wants revenge? And why does he stop?


I think it was mainly a shipper moment although it did point out to the viewer that Sawyer really did think his heart would explode so Ben's ruse/con had worked....plus it led into Kate's statement of "why didn't you fight back"...thus leading into the whole "if you love me"..blah blah and Kates retraction of her declaration of love.....not an explanation of Picketts actions per say but a possible explantion of where TPTB were trying to take us and pre-empting the fact that Pickett is a walking time bomb where Sawyer is concerned


Worst of all was that Kate couldn't escape until she had jeans to wear...


LOL...well I don't think she had panties on and she was really worried that OldWiz would look up her dress and his heart would stop or alternatively EXPLODE :eek2:

Well, yes, actually. But I was very young and confused at the time...:biggrin:
But, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching young, shapely ladies attempt it...:hypocrit:

Oldwiz

:rotflmao2: Touche!

Okay, I think I may have this one figured out. Say Cassidy pressed charges at the local level. In the course of the investigation, they would have found out about Gordy. That money would have to be laundered, and Gordy being Sawyer's backer, seems like a likely candidate for the job. The money laundering would make it federal.

That could do it, alright.

Thing is, we don't know how long this plan was cooking. How long had Sawyer been in prison? Do we know how long Munson had been there? Guess I need to read the transcript for this epi too.

Sawyer said the warden had been making his life hell for 9 months. Munson was supposedly a relatively new arrival based on Sawyer's buddy comment.

While it does seem implausible, it's the very definition of The Long Con that he gave to Cassidy in TLC. You get someone to ask you to do something for them, and you make the other guy think it was their idea. As for the PI thing? My guess is he might have thought a PI wouldn't have the legal restraints that the feds would have. From his perspective, she wouldn't be trying to prosecute him. She would be trying to get her hands on the money, so all bets are off on playing by the rules.

I don't buy this one yet. Long or short con, the mark has to believe. I can't see that happening. The feds have more resources than any PI, plus they could make things easier/harder on Munson. The only thing a PI could do would be threaten Munson and that was already happening. This is still the weak link for me...

Otherwise, really good thinking, again...:biggrin:

Oldwiz

Sawyer said the warden had been making his life hell for 9 months. Munson was supposedly a relatively new arrival based on Sawyer's buddy comment.

I don't buy this one yet. Long or short con, the mark has to believe. I can't see that happening. The feds have more resources than any PI, plus they could make things easier/harder on Munson. The only thing a PI could do would be threaten Munson and that was already happening. This is still the weak link for me...


I wonder if the fact that Sawyer was already in this prison might have entered in to the decision to send Munson to this particular prison. Say they have Sawyer, and he's just a little fish that got caught in a larger net. Is it outrageous to think they could have set this up before Munson even got there? Then, following Sawyer's lead, they make Munson believe that Sawyer is the only one being straight with him by confirming everything Sawyer told him? If you believed that this other prisoner was the only friend you have in the world, and everyone else is out to get you, isn't he kind of your only hope? He's the only one not pushing you. He's the only one offering any free advice or a helping hand. Do the other prisoners even know Sawyer is there because he is a con man? Maybe he just thinks Sawyer is there for money laundering, which would be true, but not...;)

ETA: Someone was going to have to launder that money for Munson as well. When you want something illegal done, who can you trust anyway?

I wonder if the fact that Sawyer was already in this prison might have entered in to the decision to send Munson to this particular prison. Say they have Sawyer, and he's just a little fish that got caught in a larger net. Is it outrageous to think they could have set this up before Munson even got there? Then, following Sawyer's lead, they make Munson believe that Sawyer is the only one being straight with him by confirming everything Sawyer told him? If you believed that this other prisoner was the only friend you have in the world, and everyone else is out to get you, isn't he kind of your only hope? He's the only one not pushing you. He's the only one offering any free advice or a helping hand. Do the other prisoners even know Sawyer is there because he is a con man? Maybe he just thinks Sawyer is there for money laundering, which would be true, but not...;)

ETA: Someone was going to have to launder that money for Munson as well. When you want something illegal done, who can you trust anyway?

We have now come full circle and are back at what I was concerned about in the beginning post. To explain what happened in a few minutes of the show, we had to construct a mini-novella. Whether this one is plausible or not, I'm not sure, but we shouldn't be doing this except for fun. In this case, it was necessary just to understand and suspend disbelief. Not good, IMO... But you sure are a good thinkerer...:biggrin:

Oldwiz

We have now come full circle and are back at what I was concerned about in the beginning post. To explain what happened in a few minutes of the show, we had to construct a mini-novella. Whether this one is plausible or not, I'm not sure, but we shouldn't be doing this except for fun. In this case, it was necessary just to understand and suspend disbelief. Not good, IMO... But you sure are a good thinkerer...:biggrin:

Oldwiz

See, for me this is part of the fun of coming to the boards, and part of the fun of the show. I really enjoy seeing what other people think. We all get stumped every now and then, but we also feed off each other. That's the great thing about reading what other people are thinking. You can pick out the good bits here and there, and by the time you separate the wheat from the chaff you have the week's story. It usually takes me the whole week to get everything worked out in my head.:biggrin: Then, there's always the possibility that I'm completely wrong, and I still have a surprise ahead of me. To me Lost is like a puzzle. There are too many pieces to really understand the picture, but every now and then we get an edge piece if we watch closely, and we get a little portion that makes sense. :teehee: I :heart: edge pieces!

It may be somewhat offtopic for the thread, but I think you may find this recent comment by Gregg Nations (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1248724&postcount=2) interesting at least. It kind of supports what I was saying earlier about getting the audience involved. There are times when I get a bit frustrated or tired of it all, and when that happens I just stop thinking so much about it for a while. Eventually, I pick it up again though. I always get sucked back in somehow.;)

ETA: That's also the good thing about questioning what we have seen. I'm really enjoying this thread. You ask great questions OldWiz.

Shootfire:

The over-arching mysteries and puzzles are part of the attraction of the show to me, also. BUT, only if the story in the ep is well-constructed. During the first season we had mysteries galore and I had a ball discussing all the various theories about Nikolas Tesla, The Philadelphia Experiment, Huskie's Big Bird, Ol Smokey, etc. These were plot points outside of the individual ep that we weren't supposed to understand yet.

The fun stops, for me, when this kind of analysis is required just to understand what happened in the current story. I don't expect to understand everything in an ep, for example, Ben's 'plan' - that's part of the mini-arc that will unfold so we can have fun trying to figure that out.

But, for example, last ep I had a problem with understanding why a supposed criminal enterprise would be allowing strangers into their midst. The rest of the ep was fine and I enjoyed it. Having one thing that doesn't quite make sense is acceptable to me and is subject to our omni-present scrutiny where someone usually comes up with a plausible explanation.

However, this particular ep had so many 'issues' for me that at the end I just said Huh? I had to watch it again immediately to see what I missed, and still ended up with what I brought up on the list in this thread. I honestly vacillated between feeling stupid and being disappointed in the writers. If it hadn't been for your contributions, I would have never figured out the vasodepressor syncope when all it would have taken was Benry saying 'we gave the bunny a drug that made him pass out when he got scared. We gave you the same'. Maybe 2 seconds of dialogue...

I suppose I could have posted this in the 'Eh, could have been better..' thread, but I've never felt like doing that before. Besides, I would have missed out on your brilliant analysis (and story-telling)...:biggrin:

Oldwiz

Shootfire:

The over-arching mysteries and puzzles are part of the attraction of the show to me, also. BUT, only if the story in the ep is well-constructed. During the first season we had mysteries galore and I had a ball discussing all the various theories about Nikolas Tesla, The Philadelphia Experiment, Huskie's Big Bird, Ol Smokey, etc. These were plot points outside of the individual ep that we weren't supposed to understand yet.

The fun stops, for me, when this kind of analysis is required just to understand what happened in the current story. I don't expect to understand everything in an ep, for example, Ben's 'plan' - that's part of the mini-arc that will unfold so we can have fun trying to figure that out.

But, for example, last ep I had a problem with understanding why a supposed criminal enterprise would be allowing strangers into their midst. The rest of the ep was fine and I enjoyed it. Having one thing that doesn't quite make sense is acceptable to me and is subject to our omni-present scrutiny where someone usually comes up with a plausible explanation.

However, this particular ep had so many 'issues' for me that at the end I just said Huh? I had to watch it again immediately to see what I missed, and still ended up with what I brought up on the list in this thread. I honestly vacillated between feeling stupid and being disappointed in the writers. If it hadn't been for your contributions, I would have never figured out the vasodepressor syncope when all it would have taken was Benry saying 'we gave the bunny a drug that made him pass out when he got scared. We gave you the same'. Maybe 2 seconds of dialogue...

I suppose I could have posted this in the 'Eh, could have been better..' thread, but I've never felt like doing that before. Besides, I would have missed out on your brilliant analysis (and story-telling)...:biggrin:

Oldwiz

Pssshhh...I make no claims that what I theorized is accurate. It just fits, as other theories may possibly fit, but I appreciate the compliment very much.:cool: Maybe this episode did leave a bit much to decipher. I'm still not sure what I think of Cassidy's involvement in the whole thing. I guess it just doesn't perplex me as much as it does some other folks. Maybe because I'm a little too friendly with my own imagination?:24: I do think some if it was meant to be a bit more clearcut than it came across, for example the reasoning behind Munson falling for the con. I really didn't have a problem with that. :shrug:

ETA: I'm glad you posted your questions here. Good questions lead to good theories.

Pssshhh...I make no claims that what I theorized is accurate. It just fits, as other theories may possibly fit, but I appreciate the compliment very much.:cool: Maybe this episode did leave a bit much to decipher. I'm still not sure what I think of Cassidy's involvement in the whole thing. I guess it just doesn't perplex me as much as it does some other folks. Maybe because I'm a little too friendly with my own imagination?:24: I do think some if it was meant to be a bit more clearcut than it came across, for example the reasoning behind Munson falling for the con. I really didn't have a problem with that. :shrug:

Well, this is a perfect example of what makes the world go 'round - Cassidy didn't make my list 'cause I considered it just a lead-in to another part of Sawyer's back-story. Hard-hearted Sawyer with a gorgeous little muffin daughter... All kinds of plot opportunites there.:eek2:
On the other hand the Munson thing bothered me more than anything else in terms of believeability - even more than Pickett's Charge which I just didn't understand.:mad:

So, what about the final scene showing the 2 islands and Benry's comment 'theres no where to run...'. Obviously the scene was intended to startle the audience (as it did) but were we supposed to think Sawyer would abandon any plans of escape? It certainly let Benry quote significant lines from Mice and Men, but was that it?
I will confess that I might be being too critical on this point, but after the other stuff, it just ended the ep on another puzzler that was a sour note to me.

Perhaps it's true that I need to be 'spoon-fed' some of these plot lines because I have less time now than I used to to devote to the 'Lage (I'm actually off sick right now rather than doing my work). I've become more like a 'normal' viewer of late...:confused:

Oldwiz

Well, this is a perfect example of what makes the world go 'round - Cassidy didn't make my list 'cause I considered it just a lead-in to another part of Sawyer's back-story. Hard-hearted Sawyer with a gorgeous little muffin daughter... All kinds of plot opportunites there.:eek2:
On the other hand the Munson thing bothered me more than anything else in terms of believeability - even more than Pickett's Charge which I just didn't understand.:mad:

So, what about the final scene showing the 2 islands and Benry's comment 'theres no where to run...'. Obviously the scene was intended to startle the audience (as it did) but were we supposed to think Sawyer would abandon any plans of escape? It certainly let Benry quote significant lines from Mice and Men, but was that it?
I will confess that I might be being too critical on this point, but after the other stuff, it just ended the ep on another puzzler that was a sour note to me.

Perhaps it's true that I need to be 'spoon-fed' some of these plot lines because I have less time now than I used to to devote to the 'Lage (I'm actually off sick right now rather than doing my work). I've become more like a 'normal' viewer of late...:confused:

Oldwiz

First of all, I don't think you need to be "spoon-fed" anything. You think critically. There's nothing wrong with that. It keeps those of us with active imaginations in check.;) I like to think of it as discerning, though I would disagree that we always immediately understood what was happening in the here and now of the story during Season 1. Do you have any idea how many times I have re-watched my Season 1 DVDs? :24:

I don't think we were supposed to think Sawyer would just give up after seeing where he is. It seemed to me like more of a challenge. Yes, I expect Sawyer to be taken aback, but at least he knows a lot more about his enemy now. Sawyer got some important intelligence from this little adventure. He knows he will have to find a way to communicate without the Others being aware of it. He knows he can't just run away, and he's going to have to get hold of some transportation. Sounds to me like Sawyer may have to devise the most brilliant, if not elaborate, con of his life if he is to escape. Also, I think it was supposed to suggest that he's going to need some help to escape.

First of all, I don't think you need to be "spoon-fed" anything. You think critically. There's nothing wrong with that. It keeps those of us with active imaginations in check.;) I like to think of it as discerning, though I would disagree that we always immediately understood what was happening in the here and now of the story during Season 1. Do you have any idea how many times I have re-watched my Season 1 DVDs? :24:

I don't think we were supposed to think Sawyer would just give up after seeing where he is. It seemed to me like more of a challenge. Yes, I expect Sawyer to be taken aback, but at least he knows a lot more about his enemy now. Sawyer got some important intelligence from this little adventure. He knows he will have to find a way to communicate without the Others being aware of it. He knows he can't just run away, and he's going to have to get hold of some transportation. Sounds to me like Sawyer may have to devise the most brilliant, if not elaborate, con of his life if he is to escape. Also, I think it was supposed to suggest that he's going to need some help to escape.

You have made my official list of 'prime thinkerers'! You ARE good! That explains things so well it makes me wonder if I'm somehow losing gray matter when I take out my teeth at night...:whlchair:

and Discerning. Yes! I am a discerner, by golly. Thank you for pointing that out...I'm going to tell Mrs. Oldwiz right now!

BTW, thank you for turning a confusing episode into pure fun!!!

Oldwiz

You have made my official list of 'prime thinkerers'! You ARE good! That explains things so well it makes me wonder if I'm somehow losing gray matter when I take out my teeth at night...:whlchair:

and Discerning. Yes! I am a discerner, by golly. Thank you for pointing that out...I'm going to tell Mrs. Oldwiz right now!

BTW, thank you for turning a confusing episode into pure fun!!!

Oldwiz

I had fun also. It's nice to have someone ask honest questions.

Just make sure you have your teeth in tonight while you watch the new epi. :p Don't want you to make the mistake of thinking you need to be spoonfed, and it makes it a lot easier to chew the fat afterwards.:biggrin:

I had fun also. It's nice to have someone ask honest questions.

Just make sure you have your teeth in tonight while you watch the new epi. :p Don't want you to make the mistake of thinking you need to be spoonfed, and it makes it a lot easier to chew the fat afterwards.:biggrin:

Roger. Wilco. I'm off to watch my Tivo right now...who dies? :eek2:

Oldwiz