Was Locke referring to looking into Smokey when he says that he saw a wonderful "very white light"?
Eko seems terrified and says, "That is NOT what I saw."

Another dark / light contrast.
Heaven/Hell symbolism?

Is this how the Smoke monster shows 'the future' in a way?
If so, could Desmond's ability have some connection to Smokey?

It's surprising, because it's not like Locke was a great person before the island anyway (drug ring, or whatever he was in) so why would he see white light?

I think Eko not seeing a white light was a sign that he actually IS a "bad man," while Locke is not. We know Locke did not kill Eddie, and yet Eko killed probably dozens of people. I think smokey judged him, and it didn't have a good result for him. Maybe the judgment happened in ? with Charlie, and smokey was just waiting for Eko's return to finish the job.

That's an interesting thought, Jenny. And maybe it's right.

But I think we are meant to think of who is a good man and who is bad man, and how it is all relative. Why does Smokey get to judge? On what criteria does Smokey decide?

Is it as black and white (no pun intended) as murderer v. not-a-murderer?

If this show ISN'T about pergatory, like TPTB say it's not, then why does Smokey get to decides fates on this island?

see, the thing is... i totally agree with eko... i think he was a good man, just hard cards were dealt to him...

I really liked Eko, and since I had a hunch (as many of us did) that he would be killed, I expected to be pretty saddened at his death. However, this episode completely altered my opinion of him. It seems to me that he was a bad man. (However, I am REALLY going to miss having him around.)

I think that the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is appropriate here. He would not repent for any of his sins. No matter how well-intentioned they were, he still committed acts that required remorse. I think that this is why he did not see the white light.

It's hard to see any of our beloved losties a "bad" because we have so much invested in them. But considering how many lives he's taken, I would say Eko was more bad than good. Sure he had a bad life, but each time he killed, that was a decision he made. He didn't have to kill. Those two guys in the 23rd psalm didn't have to die, IMO.

I was wondering about this, as well. It really lends more validity to the theories that the monster can manifest itself differently to different people (i.e. Kate's horse, Sawyer's boar), and IMO the Yemi scenes also hinted at the monster being able to manifest as people (i.e. Christian, wet Walt).

In that way, I think that the monster manifests itself in the form of something that is a reminder of redemption for the person... Eko saw the faces of the people in the village. What does that mean about Locke seeing the white light? Hmmm who knows. Didn't we see Locke being pulled into a hole by the monster as black smoke, though? I wonder if that means the manifestations it has for different people "evolve."

I was also interested in the fact that the monster seemed to back away as Locke was heading up to Eko, as if it were, for lack of a better scared of Locke?

I love how much they teased us with the monster tonight! The monster is one of my favorite mysteries, and they rarely touch on it.

This island is an entity and its reasons for judging whether a person is "good" or "bad" is amazingly similar to a vengeful god of absolutes. When you take into account that the island demands sacrifices, it implies that this island follows a paganistic approach to life and death.

Given the deaths of Boone and Shannon were not because of their "goodness" or "badness", the island must have a consciousness if it needs to will Locke, Eko, and Charlie to do its bidding. It seems as though the island is fighting for something...maybe its very existence.

I think this episode (and all the Eko episodes) was very good at giving us a religious connection to this earthy island. I believe The tomb of Jesus (Eko clearing away the rocks from the plane), the visions, and scripture references all help those of faith sympathize with the island's god-like intentions.

If you believe in a higher power, it almost seems as though divine justice was committed against our killers from Oceanic Flight 815. However, if this island is nothing more than a science experiment gone awry, with a roving killing machine on the loose from the DHARMA Initiative or another corporate entity on the island, then these deaths are random and senseless.

Either way, is it coincidence or is it fate? That's the actual big question mark.

It's surprising, because it's not like Locke was a great person before the island anyway (drug ring, or whatever he was in) so why would he see white light?

....as far as we know, Locke never killed anyone . ( at least as far as we know) Plus, Locke might have repented, which would explain why he saw the whitelight, ...but that doesn't explain why Locke was attack by the black smoke monster in [" Exodus "

..nor why the black smoke monster seem to have left/run away, once Locke, Sayid, and the other showed up the first time, Eko enounter the monster.

But I think we are meant to think of who is a good man and who is bad man, and how it is all relative. Why does Smokey get to judge? On what criteria does Smokey decide?



The Island Decided becuase Eko let the Swan Station go tits up. Smokey sent him there to save the swan and he failed. THE ISLAND IS GETTING RESTLESS!!! The island is a character on this show and it is PISSED OFF! Patch Man is in the Flame, and my money is on it being Radzinsky with a message about the Island... It knows all.

I refer you to the Whispers... "I know it all, I know it all" "I am in their dreams" "I see eye to eye" BUT... There is also the reference to a scope, I think the Losties are being watched by more then the Others. The Whispers also reference a "Gate" where they need to close it and "they" are getting too close to it. Locke is sure to walk through this gate soon (in 15-20 weeks), so maybe not that soon :)

I think the monster shows back at you what you look into it. Locke looked at it with awe, and saw beauty. Eko looked at it differently.

I think we're getting into a very interesting study of good vs. evil, and all of the gray areas in between. I think that's why the setup of Lost is how it is--the flashbacks which build characters so fully (well at least some characters) are a way for us to see for ourselves the good and bad in people and judge for ourselves.

I think it's obvious, not only because of what the producers themselves have said, but because of the set up of the show and a flyaway comment by Rousseau (It is a security system, there is no such thing as monsters, or something to that effect), I think it's pretty clear that the monster is manmade. If so, it was programmed by someone--someone with a clear definition of good and bad, or with a clear enough theology to draw from to program some sort of AI to make judgments. What this theology will be is an interesting mystery of itself, but a more interesting mystery is: Why? Why program the monster to do this, on a remote and mostly uninhabited island somewhere in the south Pacific? Is it a prototype of some policing machine to be used in the civilized world? And why "repent"? Would that have saved Eko? Saying he was "sorry"? If it was truly meant for civilization, then the monster would have demanded much more punitive measures, not just repentance. And was the final decision of the monster to kill Eko based on the judgment it had passed, or was it personal vindictiveness? A show of power over his lack of fear that did him in?

Whatever, I'm depressed. Eko was one of my favorites. Can we leave the lostaways alone now for a while?

PS: Hey Amber :)

I think we're getting into a very interesting study of good vs. evil, and all of the gray areas in between. I think that's why the setup of Lost is how it is--the flashbacks which build characters so fully (well at least some characters) are a way for us to see for ourselves the good and bad in people and judge for ourselves.

I think it's obvious, not only because of what the producers themselves have said, but because of the set up of the show and a flyaway comment by Rousseau (It is a security system, there is no such thing as monsters, or something to that effect), I think it's pretty clear that the monster is manmade. If so, it was programmed by someone--someone with a clear definition of good and bad, or with a clear enough theology to draw from to program some sort of AI to make judgments.


The others certainly make repeated references to good people and bad people. We know according to Ben, that Locke is good.

....as far as we know, Locke never killed anyone . ( at least as far as we know) Plus, Locke might have repented, which would explain why he saw the whitelight, ...but that doesn't explain why Locke was attack by the black smoke monster in [" Exodus "

..nor why the black smoke monster seem to have left/run away, once Locke, Sayid, and the other showed up the first time, Eko enounter the monster.


Locke saw the white light monster in episode 4, and the black monster in episode 24... after he sacrificed Boone to the Island and decided that this sacrifice was "just." Considering that he has repented and been judged for his actions, I'm assuming that Locke again sees the white monster.

PS: Hey Amber :)

Hay Jen! :sweety:

I think it's pretty clear that the monster is manmade. If so, it was programmed by someone--someone with a clear definition of good and bad, or with a clear enough theology to draw from to program some sort of AI to make judgments.

This is what's boggling my mind at the moment - if it is sentient in the sense that it's programmed to "read minds" and take action accordingly, this brings up a lot more questions about who didn't get killed by a confrontation with the monster (including Eko's first go-round), as well as who almost got killed, like Hurley/Jack almost falling off the cliffs.

Does this mean those characters were seen as "bad" since their visions (to which all signs seem to be pointing are a result of the monster) lured them close to death? Or was it simply a test, since they managed to "defy" the vision/monster and not be assaulted by the smoke?

....as far as we know, Locke never killed anyone . ( at least as far as we know) Plus, Locke might have repented, which would explain why he saw the whitelight, ...but that doesn't explain why Locke was attack by the black smoke monster in [" Exodus "

..nor why the black smoke monster seem to have left/run away, once Locke, Sayid, and the other showed up the first time, Eko enounter the monster.

I think Smokey retreated when Locke arrived because Locke found smokey to be beautiful and has a certain reverence for the island. If he saw Smokey beating his big buddy against a tree to his death, he might lose faith and no longer respect the island or find the monster to be beautiful.

I think the ONLY reason it took Eko's life is because he didn't repent. Most of the Losties have killed someone, and we might find out the remaining ones did too before long. But Eko did not show any sign of remorse for his killings. Instead, he justified them. It was like Eko's judgement day had come and this was his last chance to ask forgiveness. Eventually, maybe each of the others will have thier turn to face the smoke.

It was very sad to see Eko, the drug lord-turned Catholic priest, go the way he did. I wonder, if the hatch had not detinated, if it would have been his time. Yemi did say it was important to enter in the numbers Being a Catholic myself, this episode seemed necessary due to his, but as a fan, it was sort of disappointing to see someone who showed such inner strength give into his own selfishness and not be sorry. Although, the way Smokey just beat him up was sorta weird... I thought Smokey would 'consume' his exsisting life and leave a dead body behind, and not show us much. It was just a shame to see such a true hero go tonight. He may not have been much at all in regards to heroism, but he seemed to change after the crash. However, after the crash, you'd figure his perspective would change on things. Once again, there was no point in the tail section. Sorry to see you leave in such a horrible way Eko... kinda reminds me how Shannon left... very poorly.

I think Eko not seeing a white light was a sign that he actually IS a "bad man," while Locke is not. We know Locke did not kill Eddie, and yet Eko killed probably dozens of people. I think smokey judged him, and it didn't have a good result for him. Maybe the judgment happened in ? with Charlie, and smokey was just waiting for Eko's return to finish the job.The real question now, I guess, is what did Charlie see?

see, the thing is... i totally agree with eko... i think he was a good man, just hard cards were dealt to him...I agree, but apparently the 'right' thing to do would be to lay back and let Fate deal the cards. (Free will need not apply)

Smokey sent him there to save the swan and he failed. THE ISLAND IS GETTING RESTLESS!!! The island is a character on this show and it is PISSED OFF! Patch Man is in the Flame, and my money is on it being Radzinsky with a message about the Island... It knows all.I am tending to agree with this but Gregg Nations already confirmed that Patchy is not Radzinski and that he is indeed dead.

I'm starting to think that maybe there are two "monsters". I could be totally wrong about that, but if there are two, it would fit with what Locke said to Walt in the Pilot.

Locke said he saw white light, but we know that Eko saw black smoke. Now, Locke was almost dragged down a hole by black smoke, and we know he saw it, but he still says to Eko that he saw white light (the first time, when he looked into the eye of the island). That is why I think there may be two opposing monsters or island deities at work here.

Think about it this way. Locke was told by the island (in the form of Boone) that he had to save Eko. Why would the island want Eko saved from the polar bear, just so that it could bash Eko to death soon after? (That is if we're assuming that "the island" that Locke speaks of and "the smoke monster" are one and the same)

I think that what Locke saw... the eye of the island... is light and what Eko saw... the smoke monster... is dark, and that they are two different things. In otherwords, "Two players. Two sides. One is light, one is dark."

I loved this moment... it spoke to something that's true in all of us.

"We are what we do"

Locke is a good man because when it comes to the hard choices he chooses life.. Like when he let the cop go.

Eko chose to kill an unarmed man... even going so far as to tell him.. "You dont know who I am". When he did it. The same was true for Anna

I like Eko and I'm sad to see him gone... but in the end he choose to show no guilt for his sins... and the darkness took him.

but in the end he choose to show no guilt for his sins... and the darkness took him.

I like that. Interesting.

I think Smokey retreated when Locke arrived because Locke found smokey to be beautiful and has a certain reverence for the island. If he saw Smokey beating his big buddy against a tree to his death, he might lose faith and no longer respect the island or find the monster to be beautiful.

I think the ONLY reason it took Eko's life is because he didn't repent. Most of the Losties have killed someone, and we might find out the remaining ones did too before long. But Eko did not show any sign of remorse for his killings. Instead, he justified them. It was like Eko's judgement day had come and this was his last chance to ask forgiveness. Eventually, maybe each of the others will have thier turn to face the smoke.

Yes, Eko did say that they were next... It's because most of them have killed before or on the island. So it's a warning, repent or Smokey is gonna come get you!

If this show ISN'T about pergatory, like TPTB say it's not, then why does Smokey get to decides fates on this island?

I'm having a harder time believing that this show isn't about purgatory. Are they conning us? ( I don't want it to be about purgatory!!)

If this show ISN'T about pergatory, like TPTB say it's not, then why does Smokey get to decides fates on this island?

Maybe Smokey didn't decide Eko's fate. Maybe Eko's destiny was to die on that island. He was injured and looked as if he wasn't going to live much longer. I'm wondering if Smokey knew he was going to die and offered him a last chance to repent for his sins so that Eko could die in a state of grace. I think no matter how Eko responded to Smokey he would have been killed; it was his fate. Maybe instead of letting Eko suffer for days or even weeks, Smokey killed him relatively quickly, a mercy killing so to speak.

I'm starting to think that maybe there are two "monsters". I could be totally wrong about that, but if there are two, it would fit with what Locke said to Walt in the Pilot.

Locke said he saw white light, but we know that Eko saw black smoke. Now, Locke was almost dragged down a hole by black smoke, and we know he saw it, but he still says to Eko that he saw white light (the first time, when he looked into the eye of the island). That is why I think there may be two opposing monsters or island deities at work here.



Back in season 1 when Locke was being dragged by Smokey, it appears in some scenes that a "white" smokey was twirling around the "black" smokey. Maybe there are two opposing entitys at work here....

Back in season 1 when Locke was being dragged by Smokey, it appears in some scenes that a "white" smokey was twirling around the "black" smokey. Maybe there are two opposing entitys at work here....Interesting theory.
Does anyone have a good screencap of this?

I totally agree with this new theory, about the the two opposing light and dark monsters. I think it ties in well with the light and dark/ black and white themes stressed so often in the show, it would make sense. The island does seem to be both scaring the islanders and helping them, in the form of visions which doesn't make much sense, unless the dark monster isn't evil and is just helping the survivors in order to get them to repent. Still a lean towards the dark/light theory though.

When Locke said that Eko said "We're next" what did you think he meant? The islanders in general , or that specific group? What about Sawyer, he killed a man and showed no regrets and doesn't seem to feel guilt for it, will he be tried and tested? What about Sayid? He hasn't exactly been a good person throughout his life, torturing, he said hes taken many lives, those which he hears in his head etc.

Although i didn't think this weeks episode was fantastic, Eko dying and all is really hard to take but, i think this episode has set the motion for this season, this whole judgement theme, and we could be in for a great season after the hiatus. I only hope they don't abandon the monster for ages again, and bring it back 20 episodes later.

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I'm starting to think that maybe there are two "monsters". I could be totally wrong about that, but if there are two, it would fit with what Locke said to Walt in the Pilot.Great theory. :thumbsup: I love it!

What about Sawyer, he killed a man and showed no regrets and doesn't seem to feel guilt for it.I think you are hugely mistaken here. I think Sawyer deeply regrets & feels guilt over his crime.

Back in season 1 when Locke was being dragged by Smokey, it appears in some scenes that a "white" smokey was twirling around the "black" smokey. Maybe there are two opposing entitys at work here....



http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=486&pos=670

there's 2 screen caps.

Hard to tell from those two screen caps. The lighter smoke in those pictures was probably from the dynamite.

I don't even know if there are two "smoke" monsters... but I do think there are two opposing forces. Locke just said he saw a white light, not smoke. So, we could just have a being of light and a being of smoke (darkness). I think I'm going with that theory for now.

I'm not convinced that John was talking about Smokey. The conversation between the two was very cryptic and I think John was referring to what he saw either in a vision or during a near death experience. We still don't know what caused him to lose the use of his legs. It very well could have been due to an accident or attack that caused him to come close to the brink of death, where he saw a "white light."

I'm not convinced that John was talking about Smokey. The conversation between the two was very cryptic and I think John was referring to what he saw either in a vision or during a near death experience. We still don't know what caused him to lose the use of his legs. It very well could have been due to an accident or attack that caused him to come close to the brink of death, where he saw a "white light."

I couldnt have said it better. Those where my thoughts after the scene. I didnt think they were both talking about the same thing. I thought Locke was either talking about a near death vision he thought Eko had in the tent or the up close view of the light after Desmond turned the key. That would have had to be almost blinding from there point of view since everyone else on the island had a hard time looking at it.

in that screencap the white smoke is from the stick of dynamite they just set off to free locke. i have a question, why can the smoke kill if it judges someone bad? its a little too catholic for me, it is not good or divine if it kills people. I dont know if it is an entity or controlled by someone but i do know it sure is making more screen time after the swan imploded. things that make you go hummmmm

I thought Locke was refering to the time he saw the light from the hatch. Guess not. :undecide:

I thought Locke was refering to the time he saw the light from the hatch. Guess not. :undecide:
YES THANK YOU. i was under the impression that Locke was talking about the light when the hatch imploded. Locke never saw "smokey" when they caught up to Eko. I definetley dont think Locke ever saw "smokey" as a beautiful white light. But why would Locke only ask Eko what he saw and not Desmond or even Charlie??

YES THANK YOU. i was under the impression that Locke was talking about the light when the hatch imploded

I agree with this. They were talking about different things. Heh, happens in real life all the time :) They didn't have the chance to talk about the hatch implosion until that moment. Locke asked about it, but Eko had his mind somewhere else.

What if there isn't just a single swarm on the island?

When you watch the last episode you can see a small swarm flying away and then a huge swarm appearing. Most assume they are one in the same, I'm not so sure.

It's very possible that if there are multiple swarms that each acts independently from the other. This could explain how John came across one swarm and saw something beautiful.

Remember when John came across the swarm a second time he was dragged into a pit. While he thought it would be safe it sure didn't appear that way. Locke could have easily confused the swarm - assumed that they were the same - and that he would be safe.

If it is indeed a "swarm" it should be able to split or branch off as it/they see fit. :shrug:

YES THANK YOU. i was under the impression that Locke was talking about the light when the hatch imploded. Locke never saw "smokey" when they caught up to Eko. I definetley dont think Locke ever saw "smokey" as a beautiful white light. But why would Locke only ask Eko what he saw and not Desmond or even Charlie??

Hmmm...have to disagree with you there...he has definitely referred to it as being beautiful...in season one he says that he has seen the eye of the island (after encountering smokey in the jungle), and that it is beautiful.

Great theory Dharmatologist! I've been struggling with the Locke monster sighting as opposed to Eko's and the Locke's vision to save Eko then Eko's death. Your theory makes sense of those things.

Thanks for the screen cap. I see white smoke.

Hmmm...have to disagree with you there...he has definitely referred to it as being beautiful...in season one he says that he has seen the eye of the island (after encountering smokey in the jungle), and that it is beautiful.

This is what I was speaking of. This has been revealed to have been Desmond turning on the light when he heard Locke pounding on the hatch for answers. This is what I assumed Locke was talking about.

I definatly think Locke was referring to Smokey when he asked Eko if he saw it, my reasoning is that first the losties in the Pearl heard Smokey and then ran out and Saw Eko all jacked up and Locke went over to check on him and told him he's seen it too. just my two cents.

Why does Smokey get to judge? On what criteria does Smokey decide?

What about all the references in the show about who is or is not the killer? Colleen says to Sun, "You're not a killer." Eddie says something similar to Locke. Benry to Ana Lucia, "You ARE the killer."
Perhaps Dharma/Others were/are concerned not to let killers in their midst, hence the security system that scans your memories and gets rid of you if it discovers you've killed someone in the past.
It might be way off, but I feel there should be a simpler explanation here than a 'highly moral Smokey' :hypocrit:

Hmmm...have to disagree with you there...he has definitely referred to it as being beautiful...in season one he says that he has seen the eye of the island (after encountering smokey in the jungle), and that it is beautiful.In essence we actually don't know if what Locke saw was indeed 'Smokey'. (We didn't see it)

This is what I was speaking of. This has been revealed to have been Desmond turning on the light when he heard Locke pounding on the hatch for answers. This is what I assumed Locke was talking about.You are confusing two separate instances. Locke, I'm pretty sure, already figured out that light from the hatch was caused by Desmond. :rolleyes:

Locke also had an encounter in the jungle in season 1 when he was hunting boar where he encountered something he described as beautiful & the eye of the island.

ETA He saw it in broad daylight.

[quote=Amber the Hun;1253156]
I was also interested in the fact that the monster seemed to back away as Locke was heading up to Eko, as if it were, for lack of a better scared of Locke?


Maybe there are two monsters. One that shakes the trees as it moves, and Smokey. Locke is good, so Smokey hides from him.

Could it be that Locke sees a white light just as he:
1. Trusts a hitchhiking cop
2. Thinks his dad really likes hanging around with him
3. Thinks his girlfriend is not serious when she says to stop stalking dad
4. Believes that pushing the button is just a drill.

Could it be that his instincts are always wrong?

Is it a prototype of some policing machine to be used in the civilized world?

I love this theory.

To expound a bit, maybe that's why the Others/Dharma/Whoever have so much information on the Lostaways, they need all this background information so they can check out who it kills and who it doesn't.

2nd edit: Didn't Locke use the words 'back there" whilst speaking with Eko about what he/they saw?

3rd edit (yeah yeah, I know!): I got it... here's the convo between Locke and Eko...

LOCKE
So what exactly did you see back there?

EKO
...

LOCKE
I saw it once, you know.

EKO
And what did you see?

LOCKE
I saw a very bright light. It was beautiful.

EKO
That is not what I saw.

After reading the transcript of the conversation again, I'm sticking with my opinion that the two of them weren't talking about the same thing, though neither of them realized it at the time.

Here's my take on what is happening. Smoky can read minds. When Smoky reads minds he actually experiences the emotions associated with those memories and thoughts. The white light John saw was a reflection of how Smoky felt after reading John's mind in depth. Smoky liked what he saw there.

In contrast, Eko didn't see this. When Smoky read Eko's mind, Eko's emotions did not make Smoky feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

When Locke asked Eko what he was afraid of he was obviously referring to the monster, then later on he says i saw it too you know, so we have to assume hes talking about the monster when he says it was a white light. I think specifically when he says that, hes referring to when he saw the monster come out of the trees in season one episode 4 "Walkabout". I assume this because in white rabbit he said "i looked into the eye of this island, and what i saw, was beautiful" and in the cost of living he says something like "i saw a white light, it was beautiful".

My point being he is talking about the monster or whatever he saw in those trees, not a near death experience.

I thought Locke was refering to the time he saw the light from the hatch. Guess not. :undecide:
I think Locke is referring to the time in the first season where he
is chased by the sound of the monster into a glade, then
looks up at, and is apparently amazed at what he sees, but doesn't seem frightened:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=22&pos=387

We never see what it is he is looking at.

Afterwards, he shows up at the beach with a wild board that he has caught and killed single-handedly, looking invigorated.

its all smoke and mirrors? I like the idea that the smoke mirrors the individual. Eko was angry, demanding to know who his fake brother was, the smoke became angry...
Locke sees beauty in the mysteries of the island...the smoke appears to him that way.

It would make a good security system, if you intend harm your intention is reflected.

maybe the smoke was released during the incident.
Uncontrolled, it was a problem.
Dharma pulled out. This would explain the polar bears on the loose, the no relief for button (as i posted somewhere else).
Ben and his lackeys move in (albeit to a safer neighbouring island). Maybe, to even get control of the smoke. some are probably ex-dharma.

oh and i believe "HIM" is probably Number 8

Well the "eye" of the island may be beautiful but the "fist" of the island is pretty ugly.

I think we're getting into a very interesting study of good vs. evil, and all of the gray areas in between. I think that's why the setup of Lost is how it is--the flashbacks which build characters so fully (well at least some characters) are a way for us to see for ourselves the good and bad in people and judge for ourselves.

I think it's obvious, not only because of what the producers themselves have said, but because of the set up of the show and a flyaway comment by Rousseau (It is a security system, there is no such thing as monsters, or something to that effect), I think it's pretty clear that the monster is manmade. If so, it was programmed by someone--someone with a clear definition of good and bad, or with a clear enough theology to draw from to program some sort of AI to make judgments. What this theology will be is an interesting mystery of itself, but a more interesting mystery is: Why? Why program the monster to do this, on a remote and mostly uninhabited island somewhere in the south Pacific? Is it a prototype of some policing machine to be used in the civilized world? And why "repent"? Would that have saved Eko? Saying he was "sorry"? If it was truly meant for civilization, then the monster would have demanded much more punitive measures, not just repentance. And was the final decision of the monster to kill Eko based on the judgment it had passed, or was it personal vindictiveness? A show of power over his lack of fear that did him in?

Whatever, I'm depressed. Eko was one of my favorites. Can we leave the lostaways alone now for a while?

I love this theory.

To expound a bit, maybe that's why the Others/Dharma/Whoever have so much information on the Lostaways, they need all this background information so they can check out who it kills and who it doesn't.
Those are some really interesting thoughts, both of you!

So maybe that's how Juliet got the file on Jack...Smokey went and gathered the data (say, on plane crash day, right before we first saw Jack laying on his back in the jungle), and she printed it out for the paper file.:confused: (seriously)

And recently, in FI, we saw Locke laying there in a very similar manner, after the Failsafe.:eek2:

We've speculated for a LONG time about those closeups of Jack's eye from the Pilot...that the huge dilated pupil might have been Smokey...

Was Locke referring to looking into Smokey when he says that he saw a wonderful "very white light"?
Eko seems terrified and says, "That is NOT what I saw."

Another dark / light contrast.
Heaven/Hell symbolism?

Is this how the Smoke monster shows 'the future' in a way?
If so, could Desmond's ability have some connection to Smokey?


I think Locke wants to be better, to improve. That's what the DHARMA initiative was all about- the betterment of the human race. Locke saw something beautiful because he is someone who is trying to constantly improve himself. Eko, however, is not willing to repent of his past wrongs, and thus is not willing to improve - thus, he is rejected. Just a thought. Any more thoughts?

What if there isn't just a single swarm on the island?

When you watch the last episode you can see a small swarm flying away and then a huge swarm appearing. Most assume they are one in the same, I'm not so sure.

I think the word everyone is looking for is "system" as in "Cerberus System" a la the blast door map. I don't think it is implausible to think there are multiple "smokies" if it is a true "system" in the purest sense of the word. It also isn't hard to think there may be "good" (white light) parts of the system and "bad" (black killing smoke) parts.

If I had to take a wild random guess off the top of my head, Cerberus COULD be a culmination of all the research on the island. Of course, Rousseau called it a "security system" if you remember. Has anyone bothered to look on the blast door map where it says the nexus of activity is located? There are two things of interest about that location on the blast door map:

1) It is right on top of where the words "Known final resting place of Magnus Hanso"

AND

2) Latin for "Save yourself from Hell" is written.

If you take what Rousseau said with any face value about Cerberus being a security system and the area where Locke was almost pulled under is near where the nexus on the map would be, is it possible that the hell reference is to preventing yourself from being pulled under by Cerberus and that what Cerberus is guarding is actually the resting place of Magnus Hanso?

Just a thought.

why did Echo have to die :(

why did Echo have to die :(

to get to the otherside?

i dont understand when they say Eko wasnt ready to confess. He did go to Ben (Henry Gale) with his twisted beard and said "I am back on the righteous path"... I think the writers have left a contradiction by saying he never repented for his sins.
As for the white light. Maybe Eko saw the reality which Locke is yet to know. ("He's Next!!)

Well I had a thought, and I'm sorry if anyone's already said this but:
Locke hasn't, as far as we know, ever done anything really wrong. He took Eddy in even though he knew it could be dangerous and he didn't kill him when he found out that Eddy was a cop. When he encountered the monster he saw a Beautiful white light, which would connote innocence, purity and hope, and Locke is very innocent, if you think about it, he'll go with what he believes in even though it might get thrown back in his face.
But Eko has done a mixture of good and bad things all his life, some to survive & others for greed etc. Of course, the reason he started to live like that was mainly because he killed the old man when he was younger, but, because it saved his brother, the good and the bad would cancel out. We know that he must've killed other people as he grew up, but, like the people in the church, some would've been for a 'good cause', so the good and bad cancel out again. However we also know that before this he wasn't completely pure as he would steal, for his brother, but not confess.
I think that this is why he encounters the black smoke with flashes of white light in it, his good and bad 'deeds' are quite balanced, he can't be judged. The white light is trying to break through, just like he is trying to be a good person by becoming a priest on the island etc. But because of the bad things he's done, the black smoke still covers the light, and it leaves him alone.
The 2nd time he encounters the black smoke is after he wouldn't confess & didn't regret any of the bad things that he's done, letting the 'blackness in his heart' take over and therefore, letting the black smoke come. Because he has given up any good that was in him, he can be judged by the 'system', his bad outweighs his good so the black smoke comes and 'takes care of him'.
The 'system' might reflect the inner person, whether they are truly good or bad. If they are good, like Locke, they'll see something beautiful, but if they aren't, like Eko, it will make them pay for their sins.
Well that was just a thought, I hope it made sense...:)

My take on this is that the monster appears to everyone as black smoke, to Locke, to Eko, to Jack and Kate when they saw it in the finale. Kate agreed with Locke in the first episode of season 2 when he talked to her about "the column of black smoke". I think when the monster encounters someone, it "shows" someone something, maybe even the future, or that persons destiny. For Locke it showed a White Light, maybe predicting the white light emitting from the hatch in Deus Ex Machina, after Boone fell from the plane and Locke was banging on the door. I think this would fall in well with why Locke thought it was his destiny to open the hatch, because the smoke monster showed it him emitting white light.

When Eko saw the monster it had shown him something different, when Eko replies to Locke's white light comment he says "That is NOT what i saw". The menacing tone of this statement, implies that whatever the monster had shown eko, it had freaked him out. In the 23rd psalm the monster showed Eko his past, which we could see inside the smoke, perhaps the monster showed Eko his future (his death). I think this would tie up well with why Eko was so desperate to explain himself in the confession scene, because he knew he was going to die anyway, and was tired of feeling guilty. This might be why Eko didn't go down to the pearl hatch, because he knew the monster was coming for him, and he didn't want anyone else involved.

OR maybe the monster had shown Eko Locke's death? Which is why he told Locke he was next, i'm not sure, but i definetely think the monster appears to everyone as black smoke, and shows them something.

I cant believe everyone is saying what an Evil man eko was.
I think he was right, he didnt sin.
He killed but then they were EVIL bad men as far as i could see.

People on lost only die when they reach an answer to what their problems are.

Boone was obsessed with his sister, but finally let go of that, oops hes dead...
Boones sister..(omg i forgot her name already) felt that nobody believed/trusted/loved her...someone does and whoops shes dead too
Eko, long suffering for how hes done bad things reaches an epiphany when he realises he did what he had to do, often for the right reasons....bang crash whollop...ouch a tree...thud...hes dead too.

I think the whole they die after they've made peace with themselves theory isn't necessarily something certain. I always saw it the other way round, the writers decide who is going to die, then they resolve their story in order to give the character a fair send off, which goes well with the fans. If you take the theory seriously then, whos to die next?

Charlie has resolved his drugs problem, hasn't taken it since "The Moth", his issue with wanting to take care of someone has been resolved, as hes taking care of Claire. Unless the writers introduce something new to his agenda, i can't see there being much more to his story, it is effectively done, so is he going to die next?

What about Claire? What was her problem? Giving away the baby, scared of responsibility? Looks like shes got over that, is she gonna kick the bucket? I don't think you can take this theory as certain thing, a story being resolved is more of a result of their death. People aren't going to automatically die because they've made peace with their problems and are finally happy, if that happened then this would be purgatory lol, which it is not.

yes i agree. The problem with any redemption theory is that the writers may just be resolving the character. However that said, should a character resolve its problem then that character is a possible casualty. Whether because that is why they are there or because their story line is over.

Eko was intrinsically good, he did what he had to do for the benefit of those close to him.
I got to thinking about utilitarianism, and think that Eko was following the ACT rules in this area of philosohpy, "Act utilitarianism states that, when faced with a choice, we must first consider the likely consequences of potential actions, and from that, choose to do what we believe will generate the most happiness. "

Certainly lots to think about within Eko's character, and lots to look up on Wikipedia in respect of Utilitarianism in respect of other losties, and the others.

see, the thing is... i totally agree with eko... i think he was a good man, just hard cards were dealt to him...


I agree - but he did slaughter those men inside a church and with that he foiled the holiness of the church. That's an insult God won't take lightly. A real priest would not kill, let alone in a church.

What a great thread. So many really points of depth here. I love the comment about smoke mirrors..us. I was thinking about the yin/yang symbol and how it depicts all as one, one complete circuit or circle. What comes around goes around. Same with smokey, smokey is yin/yang. Its all one. The dark and the light. I think the point of the yin/yang is that middle S line, thats the path of neither dark or light or yin or yang but the balance. What we judge comes back to judge us. If we judge something good or bad were still judging. The point is to walk above the judgements and that comes from understanding. I think that could be an interpretation on why Jesus walked on water..he walked above being subject to emotions or situations. He understood. He became realized (real-eyes). Someone said what if the smoke works for good by helping people see their dark within..so it all works for good. Thats a great point. Maybe saying it all works for balance is a way to say it without judgement. I was thinking about Ekos Jesus stick and wondered when he had time to write "lift up your eyes and look north" on it? What if he didn't? What if that was a message or a warning? North connotes judgement or judgement day in the bible. Im not religious but I study metaphors and I have come to see alot the past week. I think Jesus said something like if your right eye be dark, then there be no light in thee. I thought about one eye man and wondered if he lost his eye on purpose to remember or was it a message or an accident? Then I thought about how many epi's opened with a close up of an eye. Were they all right eyes? And when the black smoke was in Jacks eye, was the darkness actually in Jack or was he looking at it and it was a reflection? The eyes are the window to the soul. One thing is for sure, hate is black. Eko had alot of hate in his heart and justified it as he did what he needed to do to survive. A basic instinct. I think the point of life is what we learn. Maybe he didn't learn anything other than to survive, and life was over for him. He seemed to have a conscience when he first found Yemi which is why the smoke didnt take him out, there was hope for him yet. When he took off the cross and gave it to Yemi which I felt right away was not Yemi, I thought Ekos toast. I read somewhere that the smoke whipped his body in the sign of the cross, and thats how he died. I will have to go back and look. I also read somewhere that Ekos last words were not "your next" but "con-fess" however some said he said "Its the devil". Can anyone check the audio and let us know what his last words were? If he did say your next, did he mean Locke? And why would Locke withhold what he said saying were next?
IVe considered this: there is dark and light in everyone. When the dark gets so out of balance more dark can come in. (Law of attraction). Same with good, when there is so much good it crosses into dark. Look at all the wars in the name of God? Look at all the religions with all the pride thinking they are the only way? The light turns to dark at some point. So my thought is, the middle ground of unattachment and no judgement is the key. As far as Vincent he could have been used as a warning or forshadowing by the smokey. The eye of the eyeland watches us all.

Locke said he saw white light, but we know that Eko saw black smoke. Now, Locke was almost dragged down a hole by black smoke, and we know he saw it, but he still says to Eko that he saw white light (the first time, when he looked into the eye of the island). That is why I think there may be two opposing monsters or island deities at work here.



Good point, it seems Locke has seen the black smoke.

Another big question is why did Locke WANT to be dragged down the hole?
Remember he told Jack to let him go...

So, is being killed by Smokey a good thing?

That's an interesting thought, Jenny. And maybe it's right.

But I think we are meant to think of who is a good man and who is bad man, and how it is all relative. Why does Smokey get to judge? On what criteria does Smokey decide?

Is it as black and white (no pun intended) as murderer v. not-a-murderer?

If this show ISN'T about pergatory, like TPTB say it's not, then why does Smokey get to decides fates on this island?

Smokey get to decide 'coz smokey is GOD's creation - one of the many ways for judgement. Smokey also decided for PILOT.

the white light wasnt smokey, it was the hatch light possibly from the swan, or the one eyed station

If you take what Rousseau said with any face value about Cerberus being a security system and the area where Locke was almost pulled under is near where the nexus on the map would be, is it possible that the hell reference is to preventing yourself from being pulled under by Cerberus and that what Cerberus is guarding is actually the resting place of Magnus Hanso?

Just a thought.

And what a superb one it is! :) I believe the Cerberus (a three-headed dog guarding the gates of Hades) referenced on the blast door map is Smokey. In the upper left hand corner, it says "possible catastrophic malfunction of Cerberus system" and further down "Alleged location of #4 The Flame but unlikely due to Cerberus activity".

As for The White Light, I took it literally. We see two scenes of Eko stumbling through the jungle towards The Pearl. In the first one, we see, in the upper right hand corner of the screen, a shaft of white life, very briefly (at 16 minutes on my DVR). After the scene in Yemi's church with his altar boy, we're back to Eko stumbling. After getting another walking stick, he stands up and is stumbling when a blinding flash of white light fills the screen (at 19 mins)--but it has a tell-tale sound of Smokey, the one that sounds like the counter flipping over in The Swan after the button was pushed. Eko is then immediately in the sequence with the three dead dudes and the altar boy shussshing him. I think the second one is the one John saw. We're going to need to see what John saw at some point, right? :)

Re: Eko's spiritual scorecard. I'll be upfront, I loathe organized religion and when that nun went postal on young Eko about sinning, I really got pissed off. It's the old "suffer your life gladly" routine, a way to beat people down so they accept their poverty and dire circumstances. When Eko shot the old man in the 23rd Psalm, I strongly feel it was the right thing to do. If he --or Yemi-- didn't do it, the whole village would have been slaughtered. A hideous decision to have to make, but in the context of the greater good, a good one.

FF to the scene in the church and Eko again is taking the heat for his brother (who, remember, ate the crackers so he's complicit in the breaking in of the locker too). As for killing those three dudes in the church, good for him. It's very easy for us safe Westerners to sit and moralize, but I liked how they showed how random death can be in war-torn countries like that (the way Mr. Red Shirt with Sunglasses just whipped out the pistol and shot the woman) and reading the Bible isn't going to prevent a bullet going through your skull or your hands from being cut off.

If Eko had wept and said "I'm sorry for killing the old man! I'm sorry for killing those three dudes!" I'd have been furious at him. Instead he said "I did what I could to [help Yemi and me] survive".

Good for AAA, he wanted to leave to do other things and he certainly went out in what's going to probably be remembered as one of the pivotal scenes ever (getting thrashed by Smokey).