I think the bigger moral dilemma in this episode has become somewhat overshadowed by Charlie shooting Ethan. Yes, there is a moral dilemma there as well, but does no one see something majorly wrong with the fact that Jack decided to use Claire--very pregnant, who has already had problems due to stress with her pregnancy (let's not forget the contractions at the end of The Moth), and doesn't remember what was done to her (or remember any of the other Lostaways at the time Jack suggests this little plan)--as BAIT???

Okay, yes, they are on an island outside of our normal realm of experience; as Locke pointed out previously "the same rules do not apply here" (see Special; Locke's conversation with Michael concerning Walt). But does NO ONE see something WRONG with this picture?

Yes, Claire spoke up and said she would do whatever was necessary and went willingly. I get that. But she should never have been put in that position in the first place....

How does Jack get carte blanche for this, but Charlie become a monster for killing someone who had previously attempted to murder him and kidnap Claire? I don't get how one winds up being St. Jack--just like always--and the other winds up being "Evil" Chaz....

I would say it boils down to the fact that all parties agreed to participate. You say Jack shouldn't have allowed it as if Claire has no say. She is a grown woman and whatever her state, physical or otherwise, she is entitled to make a decision.

They were rather limited in their options and one person was already dead. I'm guessing Claire insisted. After all, Ethan was doing the killing in order to get her back. Would she want to sit on the side while others died and hope the men folk came up with a way to stop Ethan?

My complaint is rather that they didn't stay close enough to come to her rescue sooner since Jack could have been beaten again.

Okay --- if you look at it like, would they rather put Claire in some danger, or risk another person being *killed* ?

I agree with Robin here:


Also, I think her stress was somewhat lessened as she could not remember the stuff that made her *really* stressed (dreams/being attacked). Granted she has this new stress of not remembering, but that would not be as scary as remembering the other stuff...

And, as much as I do like Charlies character because I think he is interesting, and I love how really, the guy, when he was on drugs, was *such* a creep, and yet so many people are still like *cute charlie/dom! hes not bad* when he was doing despicable things? It's kind of cool. (He does have his redeeming parts, like how he cares about Claire, and how he's *generally* acted on the island -- minus the Homecoming incident, and how he was before he was addicted to drugs).

And ---

As *much* as Ethan did horrible things ---

An Eye for an Eye is *never* morally okay. If Ethan was killed in self defense, then that would have been okay. But they had four/five guns trained on him (Jack dropped his, and Locke didn't seem to have his at the end of the fight) and the guy was pretty beaten up, he was going nowhere w/o help from other people...

Charlie isn't evil... But he ain't no saint either. What Charlie did, was wrong.

And what Claire did, was her choice (:

I would say it boils down to the fact that all parties agreed to participate. You say Jack shouldn't have allowed it as if Claire has no say. She is a grown woman and whatever her state, physical or otherwise, she is entitled to make a decision.



I agree with you Robin. I think Claire was upset that she was kept in the dark about Ethan's threat and I think she doesn't want to feel responsible for anyone else dying. I think Claire may have even given herself up even if they didn't have a plan to catch Ethan. But then again, one look at Ethan's evil look made her turn and run, so you never know.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand..she is a grown woman and capable of making her own decisions.

On the other hand, she just came through a trauma and is nine months pregnant.

She couldn't stand around and let people be murdered because of her. I don't think any of us could. She had to do SOMETHING!

On the other hand...she's nine months pregnant. I have no idea what I would do if I thought something might harm the baby. We KNOW it survived the plane crash..but I think she would be pressing her luck on this one. I couldn't knowingly put the baby in danger..

So I have no anwer to this one. On the one hand it seems the only thing to do..on the other hand it seems very very wrong.

I have this sick sick feeling that more demands are going to be made on her...like one of the suvivors (I'm thinking Charlie here) is kidnapped and they (whoever they are) demand the baby/ and or Claire as a ransom. As if the two of them haven't been jerked around enough by 'whoever' they are.

What might have happened if Charlie hadn't killed Ethan?

Either he escapes or they tourture him for info. Under tourture he either reveals information or doesn't. When they are done tourturing him what do they do? Let him go? It's not like they have a jail to keep him in. Most likely they have to kill him anyway. Maybe Charlie prevented them from getting information, but Ethan would have been either dead or still a danger to the group.

I dont see it as a moral dilemma being that Claire offered to do it, even though she didnt remember anyone or have any reason to trust anyone, she did. I think you are looking at this the wrong way

Claire is a grown-up, her baby can't make a decision, she had a choice, she wasn't guilted more into this scheme than anybody else involved, so I don't see a moral dilemma.

I think it's interesting that she made the decision while not really knowing the people she sacrificed herself for. If the same situation had happened, while she was without her memory with the Others and one of Lostaways had tried to come and save her, she probably would have made the same decision. Ironic, isn't it?

2. the way the some of the other survivors where looking at her....methinks it would have been only a matter of time (maybe one more person getting killed) before they turned on HER (claire) and either gave her to Ethan or harmed her themselves. Those looks that Shannon and the other background people gave her were nasty.



AKKK! You just gave me a nightmare scenario. The survivors turning against Claire and Charlie gunning down (or doing whatever) to the other survivors one by one to protect Claire... :o

Now I'll wonder if something similar didn't happen to Danielle's group!

Personally I think Claire wanted to do it for three reasons.

First, she couldn't stand sitting around knowing that someone else might die horribly because she sat on the sidelines; even if they couldn't catch Ethan, she at least would know she tried to help stop him.

Second (and most importantly), the very act of trying to help catch Ethan would help restore Claire's feeling of control over her situation, which is something she's lost between being dumped by the baby's father, mind-f*cked by the psychic, stuck on the island, kidnapped by Ethan, having amnesia, and being "protected" (manipulated) by Charlie.

Third, I think she was hoping that seeing Ethan might jog her memory, and that if they could catch & question him it would fill in the gaps in her memory and answer the question of how much danger she and the baby are still in. I mean really, does she think that everything is hunky-dory just because Ethan is dead? What about the next time she goes into the jungle to answer nature's call and encounters another kidnapper? It's a possibility I wouldn't quickly discount.


The way the other survivors (as shown by Shannon) were treating Claire was unsettling. They were treating her like a leper. I think she wanted to do something to asuage their fears of her. Helping to get Ethan was one way to do so. Watch that part opf homecoming again....when Claire is getting water....the looks she gets....it looks like they might stone her any second. Not a very warm or understanding bunch!

I think an opportunity was missed here to show the percentage of islanders who debated handing her over to Ethan. It's not like they knocked themselves out looking for her while she was gone...it had to have crossed a few minds to just let him have her back.

I understand Claire wanting to act as the bait. She had valid reasons many of which have been stated above.

Baiting a trap with Claire was a quick expedient way to try to catch Ethan. It was not a well thought out plan. It did not safe guard her. In order to lure Ethan in, they had to stay a reasonable distance away from her, a distance that allowed Ethan opportunity to harm her before they could get there.* I think that using the most vulnerable member of the group as bait, without extreme measures to protect her, was essentially immoral, even if she agreed to it (maybe under duress?). They had other options available since they knew Ethan would be raiding the camp for victims as well as trying to snatch Claire.*

Re shooting Crazy Ethan. They have a marginal food gathering system and are not set up to keep a prisoner. They lack the resources to feed both a captive and jail guards.* How would they have gotten information from him? Torture? Drugs? Let Jack continue to beat on him after he was down? Get one of the ladies to sweet-talk him? Deny him food & water unless he talked? Then when he did talk they would know he was telling them the truth because of the handy dandy lie detector Sayid put together from plane scraps?* Hmm you know I bet Charlie gave him a quick merciful death compare to the suffering Jack had in store for him.

Using Claire as bait when they know Ethan comes and goes as he pleases? No, no, no. And I know Jack said for them all to stay in eye-contact with Claire, but did they? Again, no. It even took Jack too long to get to her, and it was all over but the killin' by the time the others arrived. It's a wonder Claire wasn't retaken.

Would they have used Walt as bait in a similar situation? No way! And a kid could run MUCH faster than a nine-month pregnant woman. These people are all too self-centered. As another poster said, they knew Ethan would be back. There's 40+ people. There's plenty of people to stand watch on the group while some sleep, fish, etc. besides BOONE. I don't care if Claire volunteered. There's no way she should have been put at risk at the suggestion, and with the agreement. of the 'heroes'. These boys are pretty, but the only island I want to be shipwrecked on with them is Jamaica!

I know Jack said for them all to stay in eye-contact with Claire, but did they? Again, no. It even took Jack too long to get to her, and it was all over but the killin' by the time the others arrived. It's a wonder Claire wasn't retaken.

I understand the concern here, but the impression I got was that Claire was hell-bent on doing what she did and refused to be the cause of further death and mayhem. As I said in my previous post, she was taking back a little control. Walt is a child, but Claire is a grown woman.

As for the timing of Locke, Kate, & Co. reaching the fight: I'd like to point out that the plan as we saw it was not what was originally written to happen based on the promo photos that were released. There was a shot of Locke & Ethan fighting, and another of Kate flat on her back in the mud, indicating to me that the gun-toters squared off with Ethan prior to Jack running him down and tackling him. It answers a lot of the nay-sayers who question how Jack won so "easily" this time, why Ethan didn't realize it was a trap, and also why Ethan was limping when he chased Claire--he'd been fighting his way through the lines of defense before he was eventually taken down. Why did they cut the scenes? I guess they were cutting something that revealed too much, or they just really, really thought that copier/puke scene needed to happen.

I thought Ethan had kind of an angry look on his face as he came out from behind the tree toward Claire. I wondered if he was angry at Claire for escaping in the first place or what the deal was because always before he was kind of cold but collected and in control. If we add that to the deleted scenes it makes more sense in context.

I have this sick sick feeling that more demands are going to be made on her...like one of the suvivors (I'm thinking Charlie here) is kidnapped and they (whoever they are) demand the baby/ and or Claire as a ransom.* As if the two of them haven't been jerked around enough by 'whoever' they are.


I don't think they would put her in danger again because if the others grab someone our guys will know it will never stop. You don't give in to blackmail because it doesn't work.


I understand Claire wanting to act as the bait. She had valid reasons many of which have been stated above.

Baiting a trap with Claire was a quick expedient way to try to catch Ethan. It was not a well thought out plan. It did not safe guard her. In order to lure Ethan in, they had to stay a reasonable distance away from her, a distance that allowed Ethan opportunity to harm her before they could get there.* I think that using the most vulnerable member of the group as bait, without extreme measures to protect her, was essentially immoral, even if she agreed to it (maybe under duress?). They had other options available since they knew Ethan would be raiding the camp for victims as well as trying to snatch Claire.*

Re shooting Crazy Ethan. They have a marginal food gathering system and are not set up to keep a prisoner. They lack the resources to feed both a captive and jail guards.* How would they have gotten information from him? Torture? Drugs? Let Jack continue to beat on him after he was down? Get one of the ladies to sweet-talk him? Deny him food & water unless he talked? Then when he did talk they would know he was telling them the truth because of the handy dandy lie detector Sayid put together from plane scraps?* Hmm you know I bet Charlie gave him a quick merciful death compare to the suffering Jack had in store for him.



I don't think much they have done is well thought out. They are still winging it and I think hoping to still get out of there hence no kind of society being set up yet.

With Ethan, true they couldn't keep him captive, not intact. To get really ugly, they could have crippled him. Blow his knees out, break his hands. Alive but a lot less able to do damage.

Hey, I said it was ugly.

Personally I think Claire wanted to do it for three reasons.*

First, she couldn't stand sitting around knowing that someone else might die horribly because she sat on the sidelines; even if they couldn't catch Ethan, she at least would know she tried to help stop him.*

Second (and most importantly), the very act of trying to help catch Ethan would help restore Claire's feeling of control over her situation, which is something she's lost between being dumped by the baby's father, mind-f*cked by the psychic, stuck on the island, kidnapped by Ethan, having amnesia, and being "protected" (manipulated) by Charlie.

Third, I think she was hoping that seeing Ethan might jog her memory, and that if they could catch & question him it would fill in the gaps in her memory and answer the question of how much danger she and the baby are still in.* I mean really, does she think that everything is hunky-dory just because Ethan is dead?* What about the next time she goes into the jungle to answer nature's call and encounters another kidnapper?* It's a possibility I wouldn't quickly discount.


I think an opportunity was missed here to show the percentage of islanders who debated handing her over to Ethan.* It's not like they knocked themselves out looking for her while she was gone...it had to have crossed a few minds to just let him have her back.


Good list. However I would add social pressure on her to the reasons she may have volunteered. . Many members of the group, due to Ethan’s threat, were in essence shunning Claire.Shunning has long been practiced as a method for groups to control or punish any member who did not do what the group favored.

I have this sick sick feeling that more demands are going to be made on her...like one of the suvivors (I'm thinking Charlie here) is kidnapped and they (whoever they are) demand the baby/ and or Claire as a ransom.* As if the two of them haven't been jerked around enough by 'whoever' they are.


That may be very possible. Which makes me wonder why she was taken and I can only assume that it has something to do with the baby. And somehow that thought has given me a creepy Handmaids Tale flashback.

Which makes me wonder why she was taken and I can only assume that it has something to do with the baby.


There is always the possibility that Claire's kidnapping was based on something as simple as Ethan's "Tarzan" wanting to find himself a "Jane," and he liked Claire, or thought she'd be easier to keep subdued because of the baby, or liked the fact that her "Jane" came complete with a built-in "Boy"...but honestly I just can't quite buy that there is a simple explanation for anything on the island. Again, it would also be a huge waste of plotline for him to have just wanted a mate.

or liked the fact that her "Jane" came complete with a built-in "Boy"...

Yeah, I wrote a joke about the "instant family" motive in another post. I'm sure it's more than that too... but I still think it has to have something to do with the baby. We will just have to wait and see what happens. And it's going to be a long time till we find out with the 6 weeks off. Ugh.