I believe that Jack did not actually damage Ben's kidney- I think he's pretty serious about the Hypocratic Oath and all. But then again, he may not be the conning type. What do you think? Real injury or con?

Don

Real injury, he can't fake the machines increased bleeping to indicate the blood pressure had started to drop. Its all real. Its all happening. I want to know if ben will hold up his deal when hearing this. Should he survive.

I'm wondering if maybe Ben never had a tumor in the first place. Instead Ben has a slipped disc or something else relatively innocuous (but still painful) like that, and Jack had this surgery/walkie-talkie scheme to save Kate in his mind all along.

Uhhh. There are x-rays. Juliet is a doctor (even if she's a fertility doctor) and would likely know the difference between a gigantic tumor and a slipped disc on an x-ray. I think it's pretty safe to assume that Ben has a tumor.

Though I do agree that Jack had been thinking about using the operation as a power-play against the Others for a while.

Uhhh. There are x-rays. Juliet is a doctor (even if she's a fertility doctor)....

But she never noticed this supposed tumor before? Typical DHARMA U.med student, I suppose. Party all night. torture rabbits all day, and never really hit the books.

My take:

The tumor is real. No getting around that.

But I think the cut is a con. Oh, he cut something alright, but notice he did it while Juliet's back was turned and she had taken a step away ... and when she turns back, he immediately screams for her to back away from the table. If she got a good close look, she, as a doctor, would easily recognize what he had done.

Jack cut something, but not anything important. Something that will be showy and bleed enough to drop the blood pressure, but can be easily controlled (inconspicuously if need be)

Jack didn't hurt Ben's kidney. He gave him something to increase his heart rate or raise his pressure. Jack just doesn't have it in him to hurt or kill a patient purposefully.

prospero

All Jack said was that he cut the kidney sack, which is where the kidney rests. In our bodies things are held at a certain pressure, when a sack or membrane is punctured or cut, the pressure lowers and effects the blood pressure because, well, for lack of a better metaphor, the human body is a well oiled machine. When one thing goes wrong it can lead to others almost instantly.

It's real -- I don't think jack could fake the EKG noises. Maybe he didn't cut something as important as he claimed, but he definitley did something threatening. Remember, they said "should he be bleeding like that?" So clearly he cut something to make Ben bleed a lot, which could very well kill him within an hour.

As far as the tumor: I was suspecting for a while that the whole thing might just be a hoax to see how Jack would respond. They could've faked the x-rays somehow. How could a man with a giant tumor who is a few weeks away from death be so physically able and energetic?

But now that Ben actually went under the knife, I think it's pretty clear that it wasn't. Why the hell would he go all that way if he was faking it? He would know that Jack would be able to spot a faked ailment, esp if he cut him open and there was no tumor.

My take:

The tumor is real. No getting around that.

But I think the cut is a con. Oh, he cut something alright, but notice he did it while Juliet's back was turned and she had taken a step away ... and when she turns back, he immediately screams for her to back away from the table. If she got a good close look, she, as a doctor, would easily recognize what he had done.

Jack cut something, but not anything important. Something that will be showy and bleed enough to drop the blood pressure, but can be easily controlled (inconspicuously if need be)

I agree
The story that he told Kate was about a girl who he accidently cut and all her nerves came spilling out .... I didn't see any nerves coming out of him. He probably just sliced a nerve or something to make the machines go wild. Whatever he did, he knows how to fix it

I believe that Jack did not actually damage Ben's kidney- I think he's pretty serious about the Hypocratic Oath and all. But then again, he may not be the conning type. What do you think? Real injury or con?

Don

I think that Jack has had enough of Ben, and isn't concerned -- at this point -- about the Hypocratic Oath.

However, that having been said, you've suggested an interesting possibility.... that after Jack gets home, whenever that may be, either Ben (or one of his underlings on his behalf) will take the video surveilance tapes and file a malpractice suit and a wrongful death suit against Jack, destroying his career.

As far as the tumor: I was suspecting for a while that the whole thing might just be a hoax to see how Jack would respond. They could've faked the x-rays somehow. How could a man with a giant tumor who is a few weeks away from death be so physically able and energetic?


I think it was a hoax all right, but I think Jack was conning Ben into thinking he has a tumor (which he really doesn't). Jack had this scheme to save Kate planned since when he first saw the x-ray.

Oh, I think Jack definitely cut something, and that he will fix it once his friends are set free. I think that Jack does indeed take his oath to "first do no harm" very seriously. But Henry and the Others have inflicted much harm and violence on the LOSTies. In the opinion of this pacifist, there is a difference between "violence" and "self defense", and the concept of self-defensive can be expanded to include family, country, etc. Example, albiet an upsetting one: if you walked into your house and someone was raping your two-year-old toddler, would you stage a non-violent protest and sing "All we are saaay-ing, is give peace a chance", or would you do anything at your disposal, including blowing his freakin' head off, to stop him from hurting and possibly killing your child? And would your actions be violence or justifiable self-defense? I think they would be the latter. And it is my thinking that the character of Jack would feel the same way about any wounding of Henry/Ben that he has to do in the name of freeing Kate and Sawyer (and hopefully himself). In fact, little does he know yet, but he just did save Sawyer's life (we all hope *lol*...surely they wouldn't kill off Sawyer, I mean, he's SAWYER!).

The Others have proven themselves to be capable of great brutality and violence. Jack probably looks at it (and rightfully so, imho) that he is trying to PREVENT/STOP violence by his action of cutting Benry's whatever-it-was (kidney sac or whatEV *lol*), not inflict it. And I'm sure he plans to save Benry's life in the end.

edited to add: One of the great many things I love about LOST is that they force us fans to wrestle a lot with the concept of "situational ethics", i.e., shades of gray in moral choices. We had this a lot with Eko's storyline, for example. And this kidney sac slashing is another example of it. Bertoldt Brecht said something to the tune of that great theater/art should not always be a comfortable, pleasant night out/experience, but sometimes should make the audience downright uncomfy, forced to think, and challenged. LOST does that on a weekly basis, bless it!

why would an incision in a kidney make the heart rate increase as quickly as it did? It started instantly after jack made that cut, and I don't see why? I'm no doctor, so sorry if this sounds stupid. That was the heart rate that started the quick beeping, right?

why would an incision in a kidney make the heart rate increase as quickly as it did? It started instantly after jack made that cut, and I don't see why? I'm no doctor, so sorry if this sounds stupid. That was the heart rate that started the quick beeping, right?

Anything which causes bleeding will cause a drop in blood pressure and thus effect the heart rate.

Well, I believe that Jack really damaged something. If not his kidney then definately something, maybe less important, but important enough to cause the blood pressure to drop so if Ben loses too much blood he'll die. So his plan is to let Ben bleed to death.

Honestly, I don't think he will let him die. But maybe because most of us believe that Jack won't let Ben die, maybe he will. These writers are tricksters! :p

I believe though that Jack has removed the tumor from Ben, so practically the surgery is almost over. Just a few details remaining. I don't think Jack would have done this if he wasn't sure that he could fix Ben at the last minute. I think though that whatever the outcome is, Jack will be in trouble afterwards...

I think jack would let him die. I mean, if I was stuck on an island with civilized people on it that had technology, and not only did they not try to help me, they tried to hurt me, I would let their d*** leader die! Especially if he wanted my help!

I think Jack did make an incision into Ben's Kidney sack, even though Jack took the oath, he was prepared to decline the surgery and let ben die, and as many have said the monitors went off right after Jack made the quick manouvre with the scapel.



However, that having been said, you've suggested an interesting possibility.... that after Jack gets home, whenever that may be, either Ben (or one of his underlings on his behalf) will take the video surveilance tapes and file a malpractice suit and a wrongful death suit against Jack, destroying his career.


This is interesting, the other do have something to hold against Jack now, that is if they actually record on tape what the cameras pick up
.

This is interesting, the other do have something to hold against Jack now, that is if they actually record on tape what the cameras pick up
.


Even if they didnt record it, who would Ben go off of. Tom, Juliet, and the other doctor's (no pun intended) word, or Jack. Umm yeah I think the first three.

Even if they didnt record it, who would Ben go off of. Tom, Juliet, and the other doctor's (no pun intended) word, or Jack. Umm yeah I think the first three.


oh yeah for sure! I was referring to Daveonanisland's point that if Jack ever got back to the real world, the others could potentially show this tape of Jack which would ruin his medical career. Recall Ben's threat to Michael that if he ever told anoyone about the island or tried to rescue anyone, the others would tell the authorities of how he killed Al and libby.

oh yeah for sure! I was referring to Daveonanisland's point that if Jack ever got back to the real world, the others could potentially show this tape of Jack which would ruin his medical career. Recall Ben's threat to Michael that if he ever told anoyone about the island or tried to rescue anyone, the others would tell the authorities of how he killed Al and libby.


Oh! Well, I think almost everyone, especially Jack, would be "broken" after they got off of the island. Personally, I don't think he would go back to the same career after his experiences on the island. Maybe he would become like, an army medic after all his experience on the island! haha, god february is far away.

Oh! Well, I think almost everyone, especially Jack, would be "broken" after they got off of the island. Personally, I don't think he would go back to the same career after his experiences on the island. Maybe he would become like, an army medic after all his experience on the island! haha, god february is far away.

hmm that's interesting thought, I guess most of the losties would have a lot of trauma issues to deal with if they ever returned home. In my mind I just kept thinking they would just insert themselves back into their regulars lives LOL :biggrin:

I have a friend who is a nurse. She thinks that Jack didn't cut the kidney, but clamped something(like a blood vessel) to cause the heart rate/blood pressure change. That could be easily fixed once Kate is free.
Jack did say to Juliet that he needed her to do exactly what he said and made reference to a clamp.

I have a friend who is a nurse. She thinks that Jack didn't cut the kidney, but clamped something(like a blood vessel) to cause the heart rate/blood pressure change. That could be easily fixed once Kate is free.
Jack did say to Juliet that he needed her to do exactly what he said and made reference to a clamp.

Oh that's interesting, I'd love to hear fourthpoliceman's view on this as well. Fourth are you out there? Are you reading this thread?

Oh that's interesting, I'd love to hear fourthpoliceman's view on this as well. Fourth are you out there? Are you reading this thread?

Hi Pen, about 'clamping' the renal artery.... this would be very unlikely since doing such would have negligible effect on BP, considering the physiological mechanism exists bilaterally, ie... we have two kidneys and two renal arteries, blood would literally be shunted into the unaffected kidney. Moreover, doing such would also put the Patient's life in futher danger considering a thrombus would likely form and result in an emboli.

If there isn't a "con" Jack is pulling, the likely explanation of cutting the renal sac causing a significant BP change would be explained by the failure of the Renin-Angiotensin renal loop. That is, the malfuntion of the renal system would indirectly cause an imbalance in the Vasodilator/constrictor enzyme/hormones, resulting in a significant drop in BP, from more or less... a similar mechansim of anaphylactic shock. But, this would somewhat be unlikely aswell since again, we have a two kidneys that can function effectively alone (hence possible to live normally with only one kidney), and would not occur within seconds of cutting into the renal sac....BUT,

That said, we did see Jack pick up a scapal just moments before Ben's vitals crashed.. so, probably NOT a con, just not realistic.

I know nothing about surgery, but I reckon Jack asking Kate to recall the 'angel hair pasta' story is too much of a coincidence in this case.

oh yeah for sure! I was referring to Daveonanisland's point that if Jack ever got back to the real world, the others could potentially show this tape of Jack which would ruin his medical career. Recall Ben's threat to Michael that if he ever told anoyone about the island or tried to rescue anyone, the others would tell the authorities of how he killed Al and libby.

I doubt they'd show the tape and take Jack to court, wouldn't it bring up too many questions about where he performed the surgery and the whole DHARMA initiative?

Also didn't Ben say that he may or may not tell people about the island but if he did people would find out what he'd done to get his son back? Rather than reporting him to the authorities?

Sorry if that makes me sound pedantic or anything :)

I doubt they'd show the tape and take Jack to court, wouldn't it bring up too many questions about where he performed the surgery and the whole DHARMA initiative?

Also didn't Ben say that he may or may not tell people about the island but if he did people would find out what he'd done to get his son back? Rather than reporting him to the authorities?

Well, I believe that Jack really damaged something. If not his kidney then definately something, maybe less important, but important enough to cause the blood pressure to drop so if Ben loses too much blood he'll die. So his plan is to let Ben bleed to death.

Honestly, I don't think he will let him die. But maybe because most of us believe that Jack won't let Ben die, maybe he will. These writers are tricksters! :p

I believe though that Jack has removed the tumor from Ben, so practically the surgery is almost over. Just a few details remaining. I don't think Jack would have done this if he wasn't sure that he could fix Ben at the last minute. I think though that whatever the outcome is, Jack will be in trouble afterwards...

I think that if the incident does go to court, it will be a complex, time-consuming trial. Or several of them.

Or, there is the thought that maybe only a tape would get to court, while the Others remain comfortably on an island no one can find...

Hi Pen, about 'clamping' the renal artery.... this would be very unlikely since doing such would have negligible effect on BP, considering the physiological mechanism exists bilaterally, ie... we have two kidneys and two renal arteries, blood would literally be shunted into the unaffected kidney. Moreover, doing such would also put the Patient's life in futher danger considering a thrombus would likely form and result in an emboli.

If there isn't a "con" Jack is pulling, the likely explanation of cutting the renal sac causing a significant BP change would be explained by the failure of the Renin-Angiotensin renal loop. That is, the malfuntion of the renal system would indirectly cause an imbalance in the Vasodilator/constrictor enzyme/hormones, resulting in a significant drop in BP, from more or less... a similar mechansim of anaphylactic shock. But, this would somewhat be unlikely aswell since again, we have a two kidneys that can function effectively alone (hence possible to live normally with only one kidney), and would not occur within seconds of cutting into the renal sac....BUT,

That said, we did see Jack pick up a scapal just moments before Ben's vitals crashed.. so, probably NOT a con, just not realistic.

Thanks fourth, oh BTW i have this pain in my.... oh nevermind I'll just PM you ;)

I doubt they'd show the tape and take Jack to court, wouldn't it bring up too many questions about where he performed the surgery and the whole DHARMA initiative?

Also didn't Ben say that he may or may not tell people about the island but if he did people would find out what he'd done to get his son back? Rather than reporting him to the authorities?

Yeah this is possible if there is no corporate influence on the events of the island, Widmore or Hanso, could probably pull strings so Jack and/or Michael could still get in trouble. Alternately, it could just be used as a bluff to get Jack and/or Michael to do what they want.

Sorry if that makes me sound pedantic or anything :)

No not really :)

I think Jack definitely cut the kidney, as for how serious it is, I don't know, but I would think that it would be serious like Jack explains to them. That he has to sew it up in an hour. The whole thing was a con. I'm sure he had it planned from the get go, I think that's why he agreed to the surgery in the first place.

I think it was a hoax all right, but I think Jack was conning Ben into thinking he has a tumor (which he really doesn't). Jack had this scheme to save Kate planned since when he first saw the x-ray.


Its not a con, that x-ray did have a tumor in its spinal chord. I showed my dad whos a radiologist. I didnt mention a tumor and asked him what was wrong with it and he showed me the tumor in the spinal chord.

Its not a con, that x-ray did have a tumor in its spinal chord. I showed my dad whos a radiologist. I didnt mention a tumor and asked him what was wrong with it and he showed me the tumor in the spinal chord.

Just for accuracy's sake and to clear up what your dad may have told you, there does seem to appear a tumor (possible Mutliple Myeloma, osteoblastoma, or others in the upper Lumbar vertebrae, BUT, there is NO tumor on the "spinal cord", since the "spinal cord" CANNOT be seen on Radiographs. There are four visible densities in X-rays.. air, water, metal and bone (mineral), thus the "spinal cord" would be invisible in a radiograph unless there was a diagnostic medium added or the tumor was clacific and neuronal in nature.

Just for accuracy's sake and to clear up what your dad may have told you, there does seem to appear a tumor (possible Mutliple Myeloma, osteoblastoma, or others in the upper Lumbar vertebrae, BUT, there is NO tumor on the "spinal cord", since the "spinal cord" CANNOT be seen on Radiographs. There are four visible densities in X-rays.. air, water, metal and bone (mineral), thus the "spinal cord" would be invisible in a radiograph unless there was a diagnostic medium added or the tumor was clacific and neuronal in nature.

I have a coworker who was diagnosed with a spinal tumor that appears to be benign (either way surgery is not immediately required). And he certainly said in layman's terms that there was a tumor on his spine and he saw this through the x-rays.

Don

^ Probably, because "spine" refers to the bone structure, whose density allows it to be seen on X Rays. Spinal cord is what's "inside" the spine, protected by the vertebrae, that's what can't be seen and what fourthpoliceman is making the correction about :)

why would an incision in a kidney make the heart rate increase as quickly as it did? It started instantly after jack made that cut, and I don't see why? I'm no doctor, so sorry if this sounds stupid. That was the heart rate that started the quick beeping, right?
The heart rate didn't increase, it decreased, which caused the alarm to go off.

^ Probably, because "spine" refers to the bone structure, whose density allows it to be seen on X Rays. Spinal cord is what's "inside" the spine, protected by the vertebrae, that's what can't be seen and what fourthpoliceman is making the correction about :)

My point was that no one talks like fourthpoliceman and certain things are accepted.

I had a medical student tell me up and down that x-rays could only be stationary still photos and never move and that when cartoons show moving x-rays it's a sham and I turned and asked him, "What's a fluoroscope?"

(A moving-image x-ray)

Don

My point was that no one talks like fourthpoliceman and certain things are accepted. I apologise if trying to be accurate and correct offends your sensibilities because it's not commonly used by laymen.


I had a medical student tell me up and down that x-rays could only be stationary still photos and never move and that when cartoons show moving x-rays it's a sham and I turned and asked him, "What's a fluoroscope?"

(A moving-image x-ray)Well actually, that med student WASN"T wrong either. If the patient moves while the radiograph is taken, the result is a blurred image. If the Tube is moved while the radiograph is taken, the image is blurred. What is actually happening is just the equivelent to live motion capture.... NOT a "moving x-ray".

I apologise if trying to be accurate and correct offends your sensibilities because it's not commonly used by laymen.

Well actually, that med student WASN"T wrong either. If the patient moves while the radiograph is taken, the result is a blurred image. If the Tube is moved while the radiograph is taken, the image is blurred. What is actually happening is just the equivelent to live motion capture.... NOT a "moving x-ray".

a fluoroscope is not a moving x-ray image? Remind me to harrangue my gastroenterologist over that video she showed me.

Don

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in (maybe it will help get the thread back on topic ;)) and say that I feel that Jack cutting Ben's kidney sac was not a con. I'm far from a doctor, but if the kidney (or shall I be technical and say "renal?") sac is easily repaired, then it strikes me that Jack is desperate enough to damage something. As long as he can fix it, I really think that he's not above doing it in his current situation.

OT, but just out of curiosity, are tumors on the spinal cord particularly common? I had to do minimal research on spinal tumors for fanfiction and I never saw anything about spinal CORD tumors.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jack hasn't done any damage to Ben's kidney sack, yet, but I think that he would if something happened to Kate or Sawyer. I think, in this situation, he would kill Ben. I don't think that he would have operated on Ben and killed him during surgery just because Juliet said that he should do it because Ben is a bad guy. However, I think that it's possible that Juliet planted the idea in Jack's head about killing Ben knowing that he wouldn't kill Ben just because she asked him to because she said that he's a really bad guy (Not that Jack has seen too much, if anything, to the contrary...), but...that if he realized that he could use Ben's life as leverage for Kate's and Sawyer's escape, he'd do it if K and S weren't successful...thus...her objective is accomplished...

There doesn't seem to be much medical expertise from the shows producers. It's definitely not up to the standard of ER. The tumour is real, you can't see a slipped disc on an x-ray. Jack doesn't know how to scrub in and touches his wrist and the anaesthetic tubing which would make him unsterile. The fertility dr. touches the back of Bens head and her wrists making her unsterile. Any spinal surgeon I worked for was a real stickler for sterility as if there is any infection it will take hold due to the poor blood supply in this area making it difficult for antibiotics to work. Making a nick in Gerrottes fascia which is the kidney sack would not cause the heart rate to rise but there would be no need to hide what he has done from a fertility dr. as she would be unfamiliar with the anatmy in this area and very unlikely to know whats going on anyway due to bleeding etc. Also the original story about the girl whos nerves all came out, that doesn't happen in reality

Yeah I pretty much ignored the whole touching things after washing their hands
and let it slide during the episode, but for some reason that whole operating room seems mega unsterile. I mean Ben is opened up and Jack to punching people, walking around talking on walkie talkies. Ben is so going to get a nasty infection.

Um guys, this is fictional television. You're supposed to kick back and enjoy it not analyze it to death. If you really wanted to dissect the absurdity of LOST you wouldn't have to look that far to see how unreal all of it is. What are the odds that a plane crashes on an island and every survivor happens to be drop dead good-looking? What are the odds that you get a doctor, a hunter, an expert fisherman married to a woman that is familiar with every herbal remedy known to man, a communications expert with war experience and two gosh darn adorable criminals to keep things interesting? Last time I checked LOST wasn't dubbed as reality television (thank god). It's not real and it's not supposed to be real, it's supposed to be entertaining and it's not a "medical" show where attention to details are all that critical as the "surgery" isn't the crux of the story, the head games, one upmanship and the dangerous situation they are in is supposed to be the focus.

Um guys, this is fictional television. You're supposed to kick back and enjoy it not analyze it to death.

But...we have 9 weeks with no Lost! This is what we do with our time :rolleyes:. Analyzing the show to death is what keeps this forum fun!!

But...we have 9 weeks with no Lost! This is what we do with our time :rolleyes:. Analyzing the show to death is what keeps this forum fun!!

:clapping:

Bravo, Angelaloo, bravo!!

Analyzing the show to death is what keeps this forum fun!!

Isn't that what this place is for?

There is analyzing and there is nit-picking and this has turned to nit-picking. Sorry, bad choice of words on my part. Analyzing and coming up with bizarre theory after bizarre theory is fun, finding every single meaningless flaw in something isn't. Try to enjoy LOST without nit-picking it to death. :)

Back on topic, please!

I know that he was pushed to his emotional limits during the "I'll rip his kidney sack!" scene, but what if Jack didn't actually rip Benry's kidney sack and somehow set off the monitors in another way? I go back and forth on this one. I don't know if TPTB want to make it that Jack, although obviously far from perfect, would never deliberately physical hurt another person (Is Ben really a person? ;) ) because he is a doctor or that this is an example of a person being pushed to their limits beyond anything that we have ever scene? In a way, it's similar to Michael shooting AL and Libby, but not as deadly and Benry isn't considered as innocent as AL and Libby in terms of life of the Island. Both are examples of how far a person would go to protect "Loved ones" when they are pushed to the limit.

Or, there is the thought that maybe only a tape would get to court, while the Others remain comfortably on an island no one can find...

Wouldn't a judge require at least SOME of The Others who were present during Benry's surgery to testify against Jack in a court of law, in person - - and make themselves available for cross-examination. Otherwise, Jack could just claim the video was doctored by some prankster.

I think Jack did cut Ben's kidney sack, but i don't think he wants to kill him, he just needed to save Kate and Sawyer and this was the only way it was possible, if Tom or any of the others had said ok let Ben die i don't think Jack would have, he doesn't have it in him to just stand there and watch a man die no matter who it is.

I think Jack did cut Ben's kidney sack, but i don't think he wants to kill him, he just needed to save Kate and Sawyer and this was the only way it was possible, if Tom or any of the others had said ok let Ben die i don't think Jack would have, he doesn't have it in him to just stand there and watch a man die no matter who it is.First of all, welcome to the Fuselage, Lost in a daydream...I agree 100% with what you said in the second part of your paragraph. I don't think Jack would kill anyone unless it was in a situation where he and Kate and Sawyer, etc., were running from the Others, for their lives, and the Others were shooting at them. I don't think that he would let Ben die on an operating room table. I wonder, though, if he really did cut Ben's kidney sack. I don't know enought to say how else he'd make the monitors beep that their was a problem with Ben's system like they did, though...

But she never noticed this supposed tumor before? Typical DHARMA U.med student, I suppose. Party all night. torture rabbits all day, and never really hit the books.

They knew Ben had the tumor already...Ben said to Jack something like "the day after I find out I have a tumor on my spine, a spinal surgeon falls out of the sky" meaning the day before the plane crash.

Who took the xrays though? is there an xray tech there too?? ;)

Its unlikely Jack would be anywhere near Bens kidney with a midline incision over the spine. Kidneys are usually accessed more laterally (see Lockes scar). Did anyone notice one of the nurses in the Hydra OR looked the same as the nurse talking to Locke after his kidney was removed? Did Jack or his Dad operate on Locke?

Its unlikely Jack would be anywhere near Bens kidney with a midline incision over the spine. Kidneys are usually accessed more laterally (see Lockes scar). Did anyone notice one of the nurses in the Hydra OR looked the same as the nurse talking to Locke after his kidney was removed? Did Jack or his Dad operate on Locke?

Hey mejm0 are you a doctor as well, or int eh medical profession?

If you all remember in the VERY first show,
Jack couldn't ever put the poor marshal out of his misery when he was going to die any way and was begging for it all to end.
I don't believe Jack has it in him to purposly do something that could cause some ones life.
I think what ever he did do just mocks some thing seriouse.

Well, if Jack didn't hurt the kidney for real, he really fooled me ;)

Didn't Ben say that 2 days after he found out he had a tumor on his spine a spinal surgeon dropped out of the sky ? So Jack could not really be conning Ben by saying he has a tumor , right ?

I do think Jack did something to make the machines go crazy but something he knows he can fix (as to not go against his oath) within the hour or so. Something that perhaps Juilet could fix as well ( to answer why he told her to keep away so she couldnt see what he had done)

I'm sure Jack did *something* - one of the guys says (paraphrasing) that Ben's blood pressure's dropping, and he shouldn't be bleeding like that. Assuming the guy knows what he's talking about and has some medical training to be there in the first place, as does Juliet.

But I don't think that Jack could let Ben die on the op table any more than he could have let him die by not performing the op at all. It's not in his nature, we've seen that.

Yeah I pretty much ignored the whole touching things after washing their hands
and let it slide during the episode, but for some reason that whole operating room seems mega unsterile. I mean Ben is opened up and Jack to punching people, walking around talking on walkie talkies. Ben is so going to get a nasty infection.

:biglaugh: Pen that cracks me up

Jack has had a lot of experience and training, who knows if this procedure (of cutting the kidney or whatever) is actually even that difficult? I mean when he tells about the 16-year old whose (cover your eyes!) 'nerves spilled out like angel hair pasta' it seems it was the visual aspect and not the operation that scared him.

I think he cut it. Jack is an extreme man! haha. Well thats my opinion

If you all remember in the VERY first show,
Jack couldn't ever put the poor marshal out of his misery when he was going to die any way and was begging for it all to end.
I don't believe Jack has it in him to purposly do something that could cause some ones life.
I think what ever he did do just mocks some thing seriouse.Jack was the one who did put the Marshal out of his misery in the end. Sawyer botched it. Although we didn't see it, I believe Jack smothered the Marshal.

The Episode was Tabula Rasa episode # 2
JACK: You perforated his lung. It'll take hours to bleed out.

SAWYER: So what is -- I only had one bullet.

JACK: Get out. Get out!

HURLEY [leaving]: Oh boy.

[Sawyer leaves feeling bad, and tries to light a smoke but the lighter doesn't light. He throws the cigarette away.]

SAWYER: Damn it!

[The Marshal's sounds of pain stop. Jack walks out of the tent.]

I too was under the impression that Jack smothered the marshal after the botched attempt with the gun. He also euthanized Libby and I think he'd let Ben die without blinking an eye so cutting something to gain some leverage doesn't seem out of the question.

an hour to bleed out is along time..and jack is a smart man who graduated a year before his other class mates.. so tells me he would know more than he was letting on.
he has great compassion, and though boone was sour thing to see, jack was doing his best to save him.. he learned a hard lesson with boone, and didnt make the same mistake with Libby. no jack wont hurt ben.. he warned him about the sting when he cleaned the wound, and he was angry then. all IMO.. i say con..
but then think about the sterile situation with the op room - he takes off his mask and lets Zeek enter the room not sterilized! bad for Ben... yes i am nit picking here.

Jack is a control freak...especially in the operating room. Its well within his capabilities to slightly injure a patient on purpose while knowing the fix is one swab and stitch away. I don't think Jack would kill anyone unless he was out of cards to play. Always leave yourself an out. The real question is...what's his next play? Kate/Sawyer escape...Jack successfully peforms the surgery...Ben no longer has cancer...what's left in the deck?

Something to do with Juliet probably.

Yes, there is the Juliet factor. Jack knows there is a connection between him and Juliet and that she is willing to protect him. He's probably betting that even if he saves ben and the others are angry at him, Juliet will step in and keep him relatively safe.

I don't really think Jack's allowing himself to think about what might happen to him. He's totally focused on helping James & Kate to escape. Once that happens, I have a feeling he's gonna let himself count to five. Once he's done so, he won't allow himself to worry or fear anymore. He'll just try and accept his fate (which, at this point, I suspect he thinks is death).

Of course, nothing is ever that simple on LOST. . . .

That will be interesting to see if he expects to die now, we will definitely find out in the next epi or three

ya i never thought about hte marshall thing. HE wouldnt intentionally kill someone without trying to save him. But ben is different-jack really hates him or doesnt trust him at all.

I don't really think Jack's allowing himself to think about what might happen to him. He's totally focused on helping James & Kate to escape. Once that happens, I have a feeling he's gonna let himself count to five. Once he's done so, he won't allow himself to worry or fear anymore. He'll just try and accept his fate (which, at this point, I suspect he thinks is death).

Of course, nothing is ever that simple on LOST. . . .

Agreed! And another reason for wanting to save them and not caring about what happens to him is, perhaps, that he feels guilty for not warning them about Michaels betrayal when they were on the hike to get Walt.

Agreed! And another reason for wanting to save them and not caring about what happens to him is, perhaps, that he feels guilty for not warning them about Michaels betrayal when they were on the hike to get Walt.

I'd almost forgotten about that ... yes, Jack probably feels partly responsible for Kate and Sawyer being in that situation. He knows that he was taken to do the op, so he's probably realised that K & S were only brought along for 'leverage'.

As he doesn't trust Ben, I wonder why Jack bothered to get him to agree to get him off the island in the first place? Unless he thinks that he's got nothing to lose - the Others are going to do what they like with Jack anyway, and there may be a remote chance that Ben might feel some goodwill/gratitude towards him after the op.

Maybe.

I would be really surprised if Ben let Jack leave, no strings attached. If Ben knows how to get off the Island, I don't think that he'd let Jack go - even after a successful operation. He might send him off, pretending that's what's gonna happen, but I don't think that it will. Also, I wonder if Jack will take the tumor off Ben during this operation or barter for some more leverage...

I would be really surprised if Ben let Jack leave, no strings attached. If Ben knows how to get off the Island, I don't think that he'd let Jack go - even after a successful operation. He might send him off, pretending that's what's gonna happen, but I don't think that it will. Also, I wonder if Jack will take the tumor off Ben during this operation or barter for some more leverage...

I think Jack will remove the tumor. He said that Ben was dead if it wasn't removed, and I can't see Jack letting that happen.

I don't think that Ben will let him leave, or even pretend to. It wouldn't surprise me if he attempted to convert Jack to their cause. It wouldn't surprise me either if Jack *eventually* did join them.

But all that's a long way off ... I think we're going to have a power struggle to contend with while Ben's out of comission. Things are going to get *very* dangerous for Jack while he's caught up in the middle of it.

I think Jack will remove the tumor. He said that Ben was dead if it wasn't removed, and I can't see Jack letting that happen.

I don't think that Ben will let him leave, or even pretend to. It wouldn't surprise me if he attempted to convert Jack to their cause. It wouldn't surprise me either if Jack *eventually* did join them.

But all that's a long way off ... I think we're going to have a power struggle to contend with while Ben's out of comission. Things are going to get *very* dangerous for Jack while he's caught up in the middle of it.Yes, I agree with you, Leyosura. I don't know if you read spoilers, but I have seen a promotional picture with Juliet and Jack and Jack has some scrubs on that have a big Dharma-type logo. There have been rumors about Jack "going to the Dark Side" going around for awhile. I think that it's going to happen, but we (or some of the other characters) might not know for what reason he does it. Does he get brainwashed? Does he really agree with what the Others are doing once he hears the truth? Is he faking it? I go for the last one, myself. Just had a thought: How long will it take Ben, if anytime at all, to recover from his surgery?

I would be really surprised if Ben let Jack leave, no strings attached. If Ben knows how to get off the Island, I don't think that he'd let Jack go - even after a successful operation. He might send him off, pretending that's what's gonna happen, but I don't think that it will. Also, I wonder if Jack will take the tumor off Ben during this operation or barter for some more leverage...

I think Jack will remove the tumor. He said that Ben was dead if it wasn't removed, and I can't see Jack letting that happen.

I don't think that Ben will let him leave, or even pretend to. It wouldn't surprise me if he attempted to convert Jack to their cause. It wouldn't surprise me either if Jack *eventually* did join them.

But all that's a long way off ... I think we're going to have a power struggle to contend with while Ben's out of comission. Things are going to get *very* dangerous for Jack while he's caught up in the middle of it.

Is it medically possible for Jack to take out part of the tumor, but leave some of it there, then jack would hold his end of the promise (somewhat) and he'd also have leverage on Ben.

Is it medically possible for Jack to take out part of the tumor, but leave some of it there, then jack would hold his end of the promise (somewhat) and he'd also have leverage on Ben.

I don't know. In theory he could ... but didn't Jack mention that the tumour was aggressive, and how quickly it was growing? And I would have thought that it presents more risk to the patient to open him up twice. I can't see St Jack doing half a job anyway.

No, either he has a plan B - which I doubt, as I think it probably took him all his time to come up with plan A - or he hasn't thought that far ahead. In which case he'd better be afraid, very afraid.

I wonder whether Juliet will protect him? OK, he hasn't carried out her little plan, but I wonder ...?

I wonder whether Juliet will protect him? OK, he hasn't carried out her little plan, but I wonder ...?

I think Juliet will protect Jack no matter how things turn out.

I think Juliet will protect Jack no matter how things turn out.

Well that's his leverage then.

Even after a successful op, Ben is going to be out of the running and vulnerable for a while. Time for Juliet to make her move to seize power. There's a fair chance that Jack & Juliet will be providing mutual protection.

I think Juliet will protect Jack no matter how things turn out.I agree. I think that they will get closer as time progresses, too, even if things don't turn out romantic...they will be close by the end of the story...

Well that's his leverage then.

Even after a successful op, Ben is going to be out of the running and vulnerable for a while. Time for Juliet to make her move to seize power. There's a fair chance that Jack & Juliet will be providing mutual protection.Well, I asked here yesterday, how long is Ben's recovery time going to be? I know it is a bad, quickly moving, tumor, but this is Craphole Island and he is...Ben...:confused:

I agree. I think that they will get closer as time progresses, too, even if things don't turn out romantic...they will be close by the end of the story...

Well, I asked here yesterday, how long is Ben's recovery time going to be? I know it is a bad, quickly moving, tumor, but this is Craphole Island and he is...Ben...:confused:

A rough guess, maybe bed ridden for 2-3 epi's, in a wheelchair for a few epis (if that is medically sound after such a surgery), and then in the next epi he'll be fighting sawyer with a baton. I would guess that Ben can't be out of commission for that long, he has to be somewhat mobile quickly, or perhaps this is the reason Jacob was introduced, to temporarily replace Ben as a leader and provide tension with Juliet.

So it turns out my guess was right, Ben did get an infection, it just had to be because of Jack's stunt in the OR, Ben cut wide open and jack parading about, screaming, punching people, having people constantly walk in and out.

So it turns out my guess was right, Ben did get an infection, it just had to be because of Jack's stunt in the OR, Ben cut wide open and jack parading about, screaming, punching people, having people constantly walk in and out.

Wonder what the reasoning was to take Ben on that little outrigger canoe, instead of the other boat we see Jack on?

Wonder what the reasoning was to take Ben on that little outrigger canoe, instead of the other boat we see Jack on?That whole situation confused me...Ben looked like a little puppet...

Wonder what the reasoning was to take Ben on that little outrigger canoe, instead of the other boat we see Jack on?

Someone mentioned in another thread that they might have used to small boat to get to the larger one that Jack and Juliet were riding on, since a boat that big probably couldn't come right up to the shoreline.