After last night's episode, do you still like Kate?

Well,:kate:. That's all you need to know.

IF you don't like Kate, KEEP YOUR COMMENTS CLEAN AND RESPECTFUL!!:angryfire

I guess I'm not her biggest fan right now, but I do still like her.

Evi acted brilliant in last nights episode.

I actually liked Kate until the last 3 seconds..

Seriously though WTH.. She gets it on with Sawyer and just when it looks like the bloody triangle is over she tells jack she can't leave without him.

This triangle is way past it now.. get over and done with so Kate can go back to trekking with Sayid or something.

Unless yur a Jater, what in last nights episode wud make you dislike Kate?

Unless yur a Jater, what in last nights episode wud make you dislike Kate?

I don't know, why don't you ask the non-shippers?

Unless yur a Jater, what in last nights episode wud make you dislike Kate?
I'm a Jater and I still like Kate. She's still one of my favorites even after last night.

I still like her! Always will...She sometimes does some shady things...but that what makes her interesting...

Regardless of whether it's Jack or Sawyer in the end...Kate is a great character without either one of them...and her romantic entaglements won't make me like her any less :)

Well, I'm pretty indifferent on her at the moment. I think season 1 she was a great strong and mysterious (all the secrets about her past) character, but since then, around season 2 time, she started being less so and becoming more of a ... well I sturggle to find the right word. But, basically I think that the love triangle with her and Jack and Sawyer have made her seem like less of a strong character. Maybe it's my general loathing for love triangles though... who knows. I do really hope she chooses soon so we can end this whole affair and she can not be so torn all the time and return to the stronger Kate from season 1.

Yes, yes, yes! I love her and I always will!

Unless yur a Jater, what in last nights episode wud make you dislike Kate?

Im not a Jater or a Skater and im pretty p''''d off that she's never going to choose and we are gonna have to sit through her being all lovey dovey with both Jack and Sawyer but sure thats all Kate's characterd does anymore, clings onto Jack or Sawyer.

Whatever happened to season 1 Kate or early season 2 Kate. Going on treks with Sayid, going down the hatch with Locke. She used to be likeable then.

I used to like her, but after the great show that is Lost has turned out to be "the Kates love life story" I notice that every time there's a change of scenes in the show and it's her scene I hope it will be a short one, cause I'm eager to see what happens in the show I like, and not just spending half the episode finding out why the one-expression-faced girl is gonna cry today.

I hope now the mini season is over we'll see less of the daytime soap and more of the good old mystery show :)

I still like her. She just had sex...she didn't kick a puppy or anything. I will definitely dislike her unless this wasn't her choice, and we have to go through the triangle even longer!! :mad:

yes I still like her. She's been through a lot and it seemed more like comfort sex to me than anything else. She's not suddenly a evil witch because she slept with Sawyer.

Yes, I still love the character Kate. I think it was well done in this fall season's last episode. Even if she has chosen Sawyer (if just for now), she will still care about Jack and hold something for him. For those who think the triangle is over...well...I'll just say I seriously doubt that.

I still like Kate, I just think she needs to straighten herself out emotionally before she worries about being in love. After such a short time on the island, I dont know why she needs to choose anyone at all.

I still like Kate, I just think she needs to straighten herself out emotionally before she worries about being in love. After such a short time on the island, I dont know why she needs to choose anyone at all.

I agree! I've been a Skater for a long time but I've recently started to analyze other perspectives and I've more or less decided that it's absolutely silly for her to have to make any kind of choice at all. Because of this stupid triangle, Kate is being defined as just another angle - whereas in Season 1 she was more of a strong and interesting character. If there's got to be a choice between Jack or Sawyer, I know where my preferences lie, but it really isn't necessary for her to be with either. It'd be an interesting turn for the show to take to keep her alone and stronger.

I voted no, but I'm stuck in a grey area. Right now, I don't really like what she's become. She's boring and wishy-washy. I don't necessarily dislike her, but she no longer interests me.

i prefered her in the other seasons when she did things 4 herself shes caught up between 2 men now and her last flashback was disappointing compared 2 her others i think....the love tirangle is never ending!!!!

Always have liked her and this episode didn't change that. She has grown alot during captivity.

I still like Kate... I think she has issues and makes really dumb choices though...

OK I do Love Kate's character........but my Jate side HATES KATE!!!!!!!! dont no about you guy's but I was so heart broken when she got giggy with Sawyer!!!
I'm prob a bit obcessed with Jate, but still, im sure i'm not the only one who feels this way!!!
So when Kate comes to her scences and gets with Jack then i'll like her again........and she Will get with Jack!!! she will!!!!! ITS FATE!!!! *takes a breath*
there ya go

Hmmm. Very tought one for me. I do like Kate, but she not only hurt Jack, but she also hurt Sawyer. At the last second she said "Jack! I can't leave without you!" Don't get me wrong I loved that part (because I'm a Jater,) but you could tell Sawyer was hurt by that. I just feel like she got caught up in the moment with Sawyer, when she still has feelings for both men, and I didn't think that was right of her, because it ended up hurting both men. Without starting a ship war, I do still like Kate, but she better wise up.

No. She hogs screentime and there's nothing remotely interesting about her anymore. She's just a glorified sex kitten.

LostFANatic91(...), but she not only hurt Jack, but she also hurt Sawyer. At the last second she said "Jack! I can't leave without you!" Don't get me wrong I loved that part (because I'm a Jater,) but you could tell Sawyer was hurt by that.


We know that she said "Jack! I can't leave without you!" after Jack told her to take the talkie walkie,TAKE SAWYER and run,I'm not sure it's right to say Sawyer was hurt.
I'm loving Kate more and more.

We know that she said "Jack! I can't leave without you!" after Jack told her to take the talkie walkie,TAKE SAWYER and run,I'm not sure it's right to say Sawyer was hurt.
I'm loving Kate more and more.

No kidding. I doubt Sawyer was "hurt" nor needed to be. Considering he was about to have his brains blown out, I'm thinking he had a few more important things on his mind!

I'm loving Kate more and more also. I like how she took what she wanted with Sawyer and I think the resolution of the triangle will finally free her character to have a non-sexual purpose in the plots. About time!

Hmmm. Very tought one for me. I do like Kate, but she not only hurt Jack, but she also hurt Sawyer. At the last second she said "Jack! I can't leave without you!" Don't get me wrong I loved that part (because I'm a Jater,) but you could tell Sawyer was hurt by that. I just feel like she got caught up in the moment with Sawyer, when she still has feelings for both men, and I didn't think that was right of her, because it ended up hurting both men. Without starting a ship war, I do still like Kate, but she better wise up.

I don't think in that moment Sawyer was questioning how Kate feels about him, and I don't think Sawyer would want Kate to leave Jack. Sawyer had more important things to worry about in that last moment

Glad to see that my poll has stayed civilized.

No kidding. I doubt Sawyer was "hurt" nor needed to be. Considering he was about to have his brains blown out, I'm thinking he had a few more important things on his mind!!

Right. I'll never understand why people seem to think he was jealous. The pissed off expression on his face? Sawyer is always pissed off.

Kate has never been my favorite character. She's such a wildcard. But I do like her. I want to see bad *** Kate make a comeback.

I've liked Kate ever since the begaining and I will like her till the end. I'd rather see her with Sawyer than Jack. If you think about it they are both murders. So think about it.

I'm not a Shipper, but I do love Sawyer and will support what is going on with his character unless Kate breaks his heart. (Personally I was rooting for a Libby/Sawyer thing... or a Sawyer/"Unknown Female Character We STILL Haven't Been Introduced To as of Yet")

So, that being said, I didn't like the Kate character in the first Season at all - thought she was mean and "uppity". And the more they revealed about her past, the more I didn't like how "uppity" she was!! I mean, who was she to look down on "one particular person"??

But as they have developed her character and they've worked within the story to allow me to see some of the WHY behind her actions, I now like the character more than I did in the beginning.

But that can change... :biggrin:

I agree with everything you said except you didn't like her in the first season. She is the same person to me.

I'm loving Kate more and more also. I like how she took what she wanted with Sawyer and I think the resolution of the triangle will finally free her character to have a non-sexual purpose in the plots. About time!

I've always liked Kate and I think I'll always continue to like Kate. She's an interesting character & I love it that not a lot knocks her down completely in life, she just continues on as best as she can in whatever circumstances she finds herself in. She may not always have chosen the right thing to do e.g. killing Wayne, but then she'd be less interesting if she didn't have her faults like the rest of the Losties have their own faults too.
I think that now that she has chosen between Sawyer/Jack, we will see more of her kick-*** self in upcoming epis. It's been difficult to show that side of her character while trapped in a cage. I hope we see this side of her character more for the remainder of this season.

I've never disliked Kate but never been crazy over her. I do think Evie is a very good actress. I've also never cared about the triangle. To me it's juvenile and fickle. It's not something that propells the storyline for me so I don't care one way or the other. As for her sleeping with Sawyer ... I think, personally it was a bad move on the writer's part since it was established that Sawyer had had an STD and then he sleeps with AL and Kate.

I think, personally it was a bad move on the writer's part since it was established that Sawyer had had an STD and then he sleeps with AL and Kate.

Don't they still teach sex education in school? Why do so many people on this board not understand that most STDs are completely curable - especially the types cured by simple antibiotic therapy, as Sawyer said he'd done? They get cured - like strep throat - and then they are never transmitted to anyone. Sorry for the O/T but I'm amazed by the misinformation people seem to have on this once well understood topic.

On topic, I think ending the triangle was the biggest gift the writers gave themselves and their actress when it comes to Kate. The triangle destroyed all her power and individuality. Let's see what plans they have for her now that she's free to be a fullblooded character again.

I've never disliked Kate but never been crazy over her. I do think Evie is a very good actress. I've also never cared about the triangle. To me it's juvenile and fickle. It's not something that propells the storyline for me so I don't care one way or the other. As for her sleeping with Sawyer ... I think, personally it was a bad move on the writer's part since it was established that Sawyer had had an STD and then he sleeps with AL and Kate.

HAD is the operative word there. Past tense. What has that to do with liking Kate anyway? Not liking a friend's friend/partner/brother/sister/whatever would not change my opinion on my 'friend' in the first place.

I agree with Duffy too, ending the triangle can only be a positive thing for Kate's character. Kate can be just Kate again, no longer just the girl having to spend her time deciding between 2 guys.

Now she has Sawyer she don't need Jack.

Now she has Sawyer she don't need Jack.


Of course not. I mean she's had sex with Sawyer! She must be complete. Why would she need anyone else? I mean she doesn't need a silly guy like Jack, who acts like a friend and sacrifices himself to help her escape. Why would she? :drowsy:

Now, If Kate was to adopt that attitude, I can gurantee, there would be a lot less people liking Kate.

I have never been a big fan of Kate, I think she is quite full of herself, although I can't back that up with any quotes or anything, I just get that impression off her.

I've really disliked her the last few episodes, I just hate her character and the way she acts and everything about her really, quite harsh I suppose.

Oh well.

Don't they still teach sex education in school? Why do so many people on this board not understand that most STDs are completely curable - especially the types cured by simple antibiotic therapy, as Sawyer said he'd done? They get cured - like strep throat - and then they are never transmitted to anyone. Sorry for the O/T but I'm amazed by the misinformation people seem to have on this once well understood topic.

On topic, I think ending the triangle was the biggest gift the writers gave themselves and their actress when it comes to Kate. The triangle destroyed all her power and individuality. Let's see what plans they have for her now that she's free to be a fullblooded character again.

STD's curable?????? Really?! Thank you for enriching my once empty life. :drowsy:
You seem to think the triangle has gone, and yet Jack and Sawyer are still there, to me if both guys are still there, both with feelings, and so does Kate about each one, then triangle is well alive and kicking.
HAD is the operative word there. Past tense. What has that to do with liking Kate anyway? Not liking a friend's friend/partner/brother/sister/whatever would not change my opinion on my 'friend' in the first place.

I agree with Duffy too, ending the triangle can only be a positive thing for Kate's character. Kate can be just Kate again, no longer just the girl having to spend her time deciding between 2 guys.
Nothing wrong with bringing it into discussion, it seems like anything gets dragged in nowadays...
Kate was Kate in the triangle. She was always Kate. I thought you guys were the ones always pushing that.
Now she has Sawyer she don't need Jack.
So we can safely assume that now that shes had sex with Sawyer, that now, her story is done, theres no point in them going back anyways, they can cosy up there forever and ever outside in their cages?
No. She doesn't need either. Kate is kate, shes independent. If Kate's sole purpose is to now follow around Sawyer, to keep her needs satisfied, then I quit, I don't want to see Kate become that girl.

How did this thread get on to these topics?! :mad:

[quote=kickflip_chick;1321772]

Nothing wrong with bringing it into discussion, it seems like anything gets dragged in nowadays...
Kate was Kate in the triangle. She was always Kate. I thought you guys were the ones always pushing that.


Kate is her own person. I wish more people figured that out!:pissed: I'm angry and frustrated! Not at Kate, but at the Others for hurting her emotionally!





So we can safely assume that now that shes had sex with Sawyer, that now, her story is done, theres no point in them going back anyways, they can cosy up there forever and ever outside in their cages?
No. She doesn't need either. Kate is kate, shes independent. If Kate's sole purpose is to now follow around Sawyer, to keep her needs satisfied, then I quit, I don't want to see Kate become that girl.

How did this thread get on to these topics?! :mad:


Exactly! I really hate it that people think Kate is just part of a love triangle. She has potential as an independent! Just watch season one. :pissed: I'm also sick of people wanting Kate to be dead!:rant: I'll be leaving now!

I think it's silly that people actually believe the triangle was resolved just because Kate slept with Sawyer. How much do you want to bet that by seasons end, Kate will be pushed back into the triangle upon
Jack's reappearance on the beach?
The only way I see Kate being with Sawyer permanently is if Jack is completely gone and Jack will never be completely gone. :)

As for the topic at hand, do I still like Kate? Heck no lol. The fact that she slept with Sawyer was enough to make me want to retch and it caused me distress seeing that she ruined something great with the one man that actually does care for her. She gives women a bad name and I hope people don't try and follow her example.

Kate's still my favorite female character. She's an intriguing blend of generosity and ruthlessness, and it's interesting to watch those two sides at war--causing that car accident to get away from the marshal, but stopping to pull the Australian farmer out. She can be a bit prissy, a little too full of herself because of her status as a member of the A-team, but she is generally a good team player.

I hope for the character's sake the triangle is done with, at least for a while, as the writers don't seem capable of both writing the triangle and developing her character much. Sawyer's a good match for her; he's not put off by her take-charge, macha side. I'm hoping that, once on the beach, they'll have some new dangers to face and we'll get to see Kate's more ruthless instincts put in service of protecting her people.

Kate's still my favorite female character. She's an intriguing blend of generosity and ruthlessness, and it's interesting to watch those two sides at war--causing that car accident to get away from the marshal, but stopping to pull the Australian farmer out. She can be a bit prissy, a little too full of herself because of her status as a member of the A-team, but she is generally a good team player.

I hope for the character's sake the triangle is done with, at least for a while, as the writers don't seem capable of both writing the triangle and developing her character much. Sawyer's a good match for her; he's not put off by her take-charge, macha side. I'm hoping that, once on the beach, they'll have some new dangers to face and we'll get to see Kate's more ruthless instincts put in service of protecting her people.

Exactly. The triangle needs to recede now, for the sake of the ongoing story. They can't let the show drift into permanent soap opera territory.

This is a great opportunity for Kate's character to both be deepened (seeing her attempt a committed relationship for the first time in her life) and broadened (seeing her role within the community developed now that she's no longer the object of a sexual competition). I've always wondered what the longterm goals of the writers were in creating this unique kind of female character - reckless, dishonest and violent, but lovable, plucky and kind - a very interesting setup that so far hasn't been given a payoff. I like how they've stabilized her now and am hoping they are positioning her - like they hopefully will do with all the characters - for a coming storyline that will be able to engage the fuller audience. I think the Golden Globe nom for Evie can also only be good for the character, as they will be trying to keep that cute freckled face in the middle of the story.

Exactly. The triangle needs to recede now, for the sake of the ongoing story. They can't let the show drift into permanent soap opera territory.

This is a great opportunity for Kate's character to both be deepened (seeing her attempt a committed relationship for the first time in her life) and broadened (seeing her role within the community developed now that she's no longer the object of a sexual competition). I've always wondered what the longterm goals of the writers were in creating this unique kind of female character - reckless, dishonest and violent, but lovable, plucky and kind - a very interesting setup that so far hasn't been given a payoff. I like how they've stabilized her now and am hoping they are positioning her - like they hopefully will do with all the characters - for a coming storyline that will be able to engage the fuller audience. I think the Golden Globe nom for Evie can also only be good for the character, as they will be trying to keep that cute freckled face in the middle of the story.

I think I'd be willing to bet all my lifes savings that if it had been the other way around you would have been proclaiming that the triangle is ever on going, and will always include Sawyer. It wouldn't need to recede...all hell would have broke loose. I will say that yes Sawyer will always be apart, as will Jack, but I think it is very foolish to say that it has ended over sex. I think the only commitment we will see off Kate is the commitment to her friends, (and I will say it in this order for your benefit), Sawyer and Jack, and all the other LOSTies on the beach. Somehow I don't think Kate is going to suddenly, over night and over cage sex with Sawyer, change her whole look on life and think "Hey, I think I'll let everyone in, why not?!". She has issues, sex is not the solution, it will just complicate things.

I will say that yes Sawyer will always be apart, as will Jack, but I think it is very foolish to say that it has ended over sex.

As I previously mentioned, I think Kate will end up back in the triangle by seasons end, because I just don't see her setting up camp with Sawyer for the long haul. I think right now, we (unfortunately) will have to put up with her and Sawyer for a few episodes, but once Jack is back in the picture, I think Kate will shift her focus back onto him, just like she used to. I don't believe that Kate will have severed her ties with Sawyer when Jack returns, but I can only hope that once he is back on the beach, she will see how much she missed him and tell him how she feels about him. Maybe if she tries hard enough and Jack forgives her for sleeping with Sawyer, then I may consider forgiving her myself. :biggrin:

No. She hogs screentime and there's nothing remotely interesting about her anymore. She's just a glorified sex kitten.


My sentiments exactly. I'm never in an entertained mood when she's onscreen. Anymore.


And I'm not even going there with the shove-down-your-throat triangle.

I still like Kate, but it would be nice to see her get into some non-romance action when the show comes back in February. I don't think all the romance is bad, but I think most are sick of it for now. I even thought it was time to get a Kate avi. I like mischievious Kate. :biggrin:

Kate was Kate in the triangle. She was always Kate. I thought you guys were the ones always pushing that.

I never said that Kate wasn't always Kate. I meant that because her choice between Sawyer & Jack was so much at the forefront of the show for the first 6 episodes of the season, the concentration was more on the choice she would make as a character. I now would like to see more of action Kate again that has nothing to do with her being with either guy.


How did this thread get on to:mad: these topics?! :rolleyes: I'm wondering that too. It is about whether we still like Kate or not isn't it? Not about her commitment or whether she has made a commitment to Sawyer, as this seems to have entered the discussion.

I think I'd be willing to bet all my lifes savings that if it had been the other way around you would have been proclaiming that the triangle is ever on going, and will always include Sawyer. It wouldn't need to recede...all hell would have broke loose.

Personally, I may not like it if Kate chose Jack, but this doesn't mean that I'd refuse to let this triangle stuff go nor would it change my opinion about Kate - I may not understand why she would choose Jack but I'd still be interested in her character to see why she would make such a choice.

I still like Kate, but it would be nice to see her get into some non-romance action when the show comes back in February.

Absolutely to the above. :biggrin:

I still like Kate, but it would be nice to see her get into some non-romance action when the show comes back in February.

:63: Yes please

Jack forgives her for sleeping with Sawyer

He has nothing to forgive. Its not his place. She wasn't committed to Jack.

I think I'd be willing to bet all my lifes savings that if it had been the other way around you would have been proclaiming that the triangle is ever on going, and will always include Sawyer.

Nope, not for me. If she chose Jack, then stick with Jack. Deal with your problems with him. What I wouldn't want is for her to pull away and start making Sawyer think he still has a chance with her. I don't want her to yo yo back and forth. The triangle will always exist as long as all three charcters are on the show, but I don't think it will be like it was for first 2 seasons.

:63: Yes please
I think that is something we can all agree on. It would be nice to see maternity leave girl action again.



He has nothing to forgive. Its not his place. She wasn't committed to Jack. If she wasn't committed to Jack then she wasn't committed to anyone. I am kind of sick of the 'she has to have Jack's forgiveness' thing, because they're all adults, they can do what they want, but I think it is too big of a statement there to say that she had no commitment to Jack. Obviously not wanting to leave him behind wasn't a big enough statement for you.



Nope, not for me. If she chose Jack, then stick with Jack. Deal with your problems with him. What I wouldn't want is for her to pull away and start making Sawyer think he still has a chance with her. I don't want her to yo yo back and forth. The triangle will always exist as long as all three charcters are on the show, but I don't think it will be like it was for first 2 seasons.
I don't want yo yo Kate either, but I don't see her staying attached to the hip of Sawyer for the next three seasons or so, completely ignoring Jack as if he'd never been there before. Like I said before, so long as they all have feelings for each other (God, no Jawyer!! lol) the triangle will be present, and we will no doubt have confused Kate played out a lot.

I wouldn't want the triangle to persist under any circumstances. For one thing, it's the laziest dramatic device in the book, and you can see fan reaction across all the boards is almost as delighted to be rid of it as they were to see Ana Lucia go. But more importantly, from the perspective of liking Kate - I don't see how any fan of Kate's could want to see it go on. Any focal point in any love triangle loses all definition and becomes nothing but an object of desire. There is no character left to fight over once triangles are allowed to outlive their usefulness, and that was rapidly happening to the character of Kate.

As some comments here have shown, triangle discussions are rarely about Kate. LIking Kate becomes entirely conditional on the man of choice, to the point she's expected to seek "forgiveness", as if a single woman's free choices were the business of the third wheel in the triangle. And I don't want to see any more "confused" Kate. In these life and death circumstances, to have a supposedly strong woman waffle around over romantic choices becomes insipid, and makes her look utterly ridiculous. Kate's power is in her passionate nature, and passionate people don't waffle.

I identified with Kate early on as a tomboy and a tough kid. The fact that she, like Sawyer, came from a conflicted moral circumstance, only made her more interesting for me. I watch Lost to see unusual characters deal with bizarre circumstances in (hopefully) unpredictable ways. As long as Kate was trapped in a story as stale as a love triangle, all her potential was being put on hold. I think most fans are still expecting something intriguing to develop out of the unique characterization that was created with Kate. I really want to see all the female characters given better, stronger storylines this coming season, but I want to see Kate's story most of all be written with the same bold style that she was introduced with in episodes like Born to Run.

If she wasn't committed to Jack then she wasn't committed to anyone. I am kind of sick of the 'she has to have Jack's forgiveness' thing, because they're all adults, they can do what they want, but I think it is too big of a statement there to say that she had no commitment to Jack. Obviously not wanting to leave him behind wasn't a big enough statement for you.


You are talking about committment in a different way than I am. I'm talking about committing to Jack in a romantic way, and they never took their relationship to that level. There was potential, but didn't go that way, so her sleeping with another man doesn't mean that Jack has to forgive her. Kate not wanting to leave Jack has nothing to do with committment in the way I mean.

I don't want yo yo Kate either, but I don't see her staying attached to the hip of Sawyer for the next three seasons or so, completely ignoring Jack as if he'd never been there before. Like I said before, so long as they all have feelings for each other (God, no Jawyer!! lol) the triangle will be present, and we will no doubt have confused Kate played out a lot.

And I don't want her to be attached at the hip with Sawyer. I want a Kate that can have a relationship, but not be defined by that. I want Kate to contribute to the show outside of her romances, like she was in season 1.

He has nothing to forgive. Its not his place. She wasn't committed to Jack.

What I was trying to get at was when Kate comes to her senses and realizes that it's Jack that she is in love with, she is going to try and win him back and in the process she will probably apologize for sleeping with Sawyer. Hence my earlier comment that if Jack decides to forgive her for sleeping with Sawyer, then I may consider it myself. :)


What I wouldn't want is for her to pull away and start making Sawyer think he still has a chance with her.

But she is already doing that. She slept with a man that she doesn't love. Until she tells him she loves him, I can't really believe that Kate does. No amount of her kissing him in an attempt to avoid his questions is going to persuade me that Kate is in love with Sawyer.

I don't want her to yo yo back and forth.

Finally, something we can agree upon. :)
100%
But more importantly, from the perspective of liking Kate - I don't see how any fan of Kate's could want to see it go on.

Some of the Jaters that I have spoken to, as well as myself, don't want the triangle to go on. However, we don't think it was resolved just because Kate slept with Sawyer. I will never like Kate as long as she is with Sawyer. In my opinion, everything about that relationship is rubbish and a waste of screen time. I can't expect Kate to have a meaningful storyline and in the process keep her "relationship" status with Sawyer. Either she is going to be reduced to romantic Kate that serves no purpose other than to satisfy Sawyer's desires, or she is going to be tough adventureous Kate where satisfying Sawyer's needs is not her top priority. I really can't see a mixture between the two working with the character of Kate.

Luanne -Personally I wouldn't want to hold my hopes on sex being the end all commitment, with the way the world is today. Kate is changable, and that I think will be effective in her storylines until the end. I see Kate making it to the end, I think her character will make it through, so if redemption for these characters really is the end, then we have a long way to go, till Kate will make that final commitment/choice. Really, I don't actually see the commitment to Sawyer in a way that you do, because there was no confession and that was made out very clearly. I see the commitment she has to her friend, as I do with Jack.

This is kind of addressing what Duffy said, and to everyone else reading too. I don't think anyone wants this triangle to play out any longer than needs be, but the writers know that this is what gets everyone uptight over, and so will carry on, because people are interested in it. Until this season, theis story wasn't a big thing. It was a secluded little part, with a small amount of fans. This season the story has been a big portion of what is going on, advertised to everybody not just us. And if as it has been said on other threads, that this love story is bringing in the ratings, then it will continue. And theres nothing we can do about it.

I agree it would be hard to like Kate if I thought she was still abusing men as she always had in her past - when she selfishly destroyed two men she claimed to "love", for instance. There's no indication that's happening this time, not yet anyway, and Cuse indicated in a recent interview that this story was indeed intended to show Kate making that switch, being able to finally commit to another. For the sake of the character I hope the writers have plans for her beyond that kind of despicable behavior. The audience is pretty leery of Kate right now. I really doubt the writers will let their Golden Globe Girl's character be identified with that kind of weakness, but we'll have to see.

I'm trying to discuss Kate, since that's the thread topic, but I think the off topic meanderings about the universally hated triangle really make the point that there is no discussing Kate's character once this triangle discussion begins. And I think that is exactly the reason the writers knew they had to put an end to it. Kate matters to the larger, ongoing, overarching story. The triangle does not.

There's no indication that's happening this time, not yet anyway, and Cuse indicated in a recent interview that this story was indeed intended to show Kate making that switch, being able to finally commit to another.

But Kate has not commited herself to Sawyer. Sex does not equal commitment and I believe TPTB have also stated as such.

And I think that is exactly the reason the writers knew they had to put an end to it. Kate matters to the larger, ongoing, overarching story. The triangle does not.

I don't believe the triangle is over. Mark my words, Kate is going to be pushed right back into it when Jack returns to the beach and rightfully so, since she does love him. Jack still holds a large portion of her heart and we'll just have to wait, watch and see what happens during their reunion and post-reunion.

But Kate has not commited herself to Sawyer. Sex does not equal commitment and I believe TPTB have also stated as such.

I don't know where TPTB said that, but I was referring to this Dreamwatcher interview with Carleton Cuse:


Is there any one of the characters who you'd like to crack open a little more and delve even further into what makes them tick?

I think that Kate is going to really be an interesting character this year because she is going to finally make a romantic choice and a commitment. This is a character who has been very afraid of commitment. I'm very excited to see the journey of that character this season. I think that Evangeline [Lilly] is really just blossoming as an actor. I'm very excited about what we have planned for her

I don't know where TPTB said that, but I was referring to this Dreamwatcher interview with Carleton Cuse:

Is there any one of the characters who you'd like to crack open a little more and delve even further into what makes them tick?

I think that Kate is going to really be an interesting character this year because she is going to finally make a romantic choice and a commitment. This is a character who has been very afraid of commitment. I'm very excited to see the journey of that character this season. I think that Evangeline [Lilly] is really just blossoming as an actor. I'm very excited about what we have planned for her

Yeah, I read that and again I have to ask, where was the romantic choice and commitment to Sawyer? All she did was sleep with him, that's it. She made what I think is a temporary choice based upon the circumstances she was in. She was at her lowest point and I think once she gets back to the beach, we will see that her commitment to Sawyer is non-existent, because they don't share anything except a physical attraction and now that's gone.

Oh it definitely isn't over. Nothing has been clear, and something on the ABC site I found today, showed the ambiguity on it too. Here (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/lostandfound/index).
"Key moment 6 - Together at last Jack realises Kate's being used when she asks him to do the surgery to save Sawyer's life. Who is Kate choosing here, Jack or Sawyer?"

Now that could have been, Kate chooses Sawyer. Or even Kate chooses Jack.

"Key moment 9 - Together at last, part 2 Kate and Sawyer finally consummate their relationship. Are they afraid Sawyer is going to die the next day? Or are they really in love?

That could have been straight out and said, Kate and Sawyer finally consummate their relationship, showing they are really in love.

But no, it is never as simple as that, otherwise it would have been dead and done. We're just left with more questions leading to other places, and no end in sight yet.

And you know what, you're right Duffy, and it is a shame that whenever we talk about Kate it comes to the triangle and that is because its there, its part of her story now, and it seems to be the ever growing big thing of Kate now. The season of romance that everyone wanted, not so wanted anymore. I am actually glad that it didn't get pursued in season 2 because that would have meant having to watch Kate like this for longer. I love her character, and so I don't want to see this be the end of her, but maybe that now has become the inevitable. *shrugs* The only people that know (or maybe not) are TPTB.

I think that if we study Kate's character at all, then we should know that the very fact that she didn't use words, but instead actions to let Sawyer know she loves him, means she very much is in love with him.

It's such a pity that whether someone likes Kate or not is connected to whatever man she has chosen. It should be about Kate herself as an individual person and not about whether she is committed or otherwise to Sawyer or Jack. If Kate is going to be with Sawyer (in the short term or longterm), this doesn't mean that she can only be there to serve a purpose for him. She very much can still be the feisty and independent Kate capable of looking after herself regardless of that. Why would she be otherwise?

I think that if we study Kate's character at all, then we should know that the very fact that she didn't use words, but instead actions to let Sawyer know she loves him, means she very much is in love with him.

And yet, everyone knows that Kate was in love with Kevin, because she told him and she told the Marshall. Yes, she left him, but she was genuinely in love with him. Doesn't it strike you as odd that her flashback revealed that she is capable of vocally admitting her feelings to the person that she loved and yet when Sawyer asked her that question (which was now brought up a second time) she made no response but instead kissed him? The ambiguity in that is outstanding. Her kissing Sawyer to avoid the question proves nothing.

It's such a pity that whether someone likes Kate or not is connected to whatever man she has chosen.

Kate's personality and attitude is worse when she is around Sawyer, so in that regard, I'm going to dislike that aspect of her, or her, when she is around him. And who someone picks does have some bearing on what people think of that character. That's just the way it is lol.

It should be about Kate herself as an individual person and not about whether she is committed or otherwise to Sawyer or Jack.

Blame the writers for this one then, because they are the ones that have reduced Kate to nothing more than "triangle chick." And as much as some of you want to believe, I don't think the triangle is over, even though I personally would like for it to be.


If Kate is going to be with Sawyer (in the short term or longterm), this doesn't mean that she can only be there to serve a purpose for him.

If you had read my earlier comments you would have seen that I personally don't think the writers can write Kate as both a romantic character meeting Sawyers needs, and a tough adventureous one where she interacts with other characters. Be it as they may try, I think they will be unsuccessful.

Her kissing Sawyer to avoid the question proves nothing.
It proves no confession, but it does prove she knows how to control a guy. Remeber the marshall anyone? ;) He had some wise words for us, and yet they were easily forgotten.

I think that if we study Kate's character at all, then we should know that the very fact that she didn't use words, but instead actions to let Sawyer know she loves him, means she very much is in love with him.
:shesaid:

It still boggles my mind that some cannot (or perhaps will not?) seem to grasp the concept that Damon and Carlton delivered to us in Sawyer & Kate's post-coital scene. I see a few that continue to kick their feet and scream "but she didn't say the words!!!" Um...did they watch the rest of the episode? Did they see how Kate's flashback showed her saying the words "I love you" a zillion and one times to her husband? And did they see how those words were meaningless, because she could not back them up with her actions.

Kate did love Kevin, but not enough to stop running. We finally saw her stop running in the mini-season...she stopped running for Sawyer. The actions that she took in these 6 episodes illustrated exactly what TPTB wanted them to...that she has at last realized that Sawyer ain't such a bad guy, she's at last stopped fighting her feelings for him, and has admitted that she's fallen for him.

That episode was written by two straight, married men, who also happen to control the show, and I'd say know their own characters pretty darn well. So the last thing that D&C were going to deliver was Sawyer and Kate, their "outlaws", their dangerous and unpredictable bad boy/girl, be lovey dovey with the "Ohhhh, I wuv you!" "I wuv you more!" scenario. The way they wrote it was, IMO, perfectly in character and utterly believable for those two. Kate had already said the words - - there was no need for verbal repetition there, not when she could show him the answer to his question in a much more meaningful and touching way. And to have Kate repeat her earlier confession would have taken a little wind out of the sails of Sawyer's first-time saying the "L" word. Sawyer's reply was D&C's way of telling the audience that yes, Kate does indeed love Sawyer. He (Sawyer) understood what she was saying with her kisses, looks and smiles, thus his reply of "I love you, too". "I love you, too" = "I love you as well", or "I love you in return". I'm just still not sure why some of the viewing audience tries to argue or deny that. :shrug:

It's such a pity that whether someone likes Kate or not is connected to whatever man she has chosen. It should be about Kate herself as an individual person and not about whether she is committed or otherwise to Sawyer or Jack. If Kate is going to be with Sawyer (in the short term or longterm), this doesn't mean that she can only be there to serve a purpose for him. She very much can still be the feisty and independent Kate capable of looking after herself regardless of that. Why would she be otherwise?

Again, :shesaid:

I am very hopeful that now the tired old triangle is finally resolved, they can get Kate's character back on track. And they certainly paired her up with the right guy, IMO, to bring her back to herself. I think that simpering after Jack, and constantly begging for his approval, was what really weakened her character (as well as being in the middle of the Jack & Sawyer tug-o-war). She's stronger on her own, or with Sawyer backing her up, and it's going to be nice to (hopefully!) get her back to that! :biggrin:
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It proves no confession, but it does prove she knows how to control a guy. Remeber the marshall anyone? ;) He had some wise words for us, and yet they were easily forgotten.

Are you referring to his comment to Jack? The "don't believe her...she will do anything to get away"?

Well, we've seen that she pretty much will do anything to get away...except, apparently, run without Sawyer. ;)

Kate's flashback with Kevin proved a lot of things. It proved that Kate can lie on a level most of us can't conceive of. It proved she was drawn to standard type conventional men as a refuge from the life her own bad behavior had created for her. It proved she would stoop to anything, including destroying a man's career and breaking his heart, to get what she wanted out of him. But one thing it didn't prove is that Kate's words are the same as her feelings. Love can never involve deceit and manipulation and cruelty of the sort she gave to Kevin. Whatever she said, we know for sure that in the past, Kate didn't know what love was at all, and her words were less than meaningless.

What this means for the present story is anyone's guess. But I'd say it's oversimplifying things to say that the only way to tell how Kate feels - this gifted, perfect liar - is to trust only in what she says.

I don't know what you mean by "meeting Sawyer's needs" when you say Kate can't be written as an adventurous heroine while she's in love with Sawyer. But I'm sure she can definitely be written as both a lover and a heroine. There's no contradiction inherent in that combination. The challenge for the writers is to give all these characters a good storyline that is going to entertain the 99% of fans who aren't shippers. They have an island full of danger and intrigue and a huge cast. The least of their problems will be giving Kate thrills and challenges just because she's with a guy now.

:shesaid:

It still boggles my mind that some cannot (or perhaps will not?) seem to grasp the concept that Damon and Carlton delivered to us in Sawyer & Kate's post-coital scene. I see a few that continue to kick their feet and scream "but she didn't say the words!!!" Um...did they watch the rest of the episode? Did they see how Kate's flashback showed her saying the words "I love you" a zillion and one times to her husband? And did they see how those words were meaningless, because she could not back them up with her actions.

Kate did love Kevin, but not enough to stop running. We finally saw her stop running in the mini-season...she stopped running for Sawyer. The actions that she took in these 6 episodes illustrated exactly what TPTB wanted them to...that she has at last realized that Sawyer ain't such a bad guy, she's at last stopped fighting her feelings for him, and has admitted that she's fallen for him.

That episode was written by two straight, married men, who also happen to control the show, and I'd say know their own characters pretty darn well. So the last thing that D&C were going to deliver was Sawyer and Kate, their "outlaws", their dangerous and unpredictable bad boy/girl, be lovey dovey with the "Ohhhh, I wuv you!" "I wuv you more!" scenario. The way they wrote it was, IMO, perfectly in character and utterly believable for those two. Kate had already said the words - - there was no need for verbal repetition there, not when she could show him the answer to his question in a much more meaningful and touching way. And to have Kate repeat her earlier confession would have taken a little wind out of the sails of Sawyer's first-time saying the "L" word. Sawyer's reply was D&C's way of telling the audience that yes, Kate does indeed love Sawyer. He (Sawyer) understood what she was saying with her kisses, looks and smiles, thus his reply of "I love you, too". "I love you, too" = "I love you as well", or "I love you in return". I'm just still not sure why some of the viewing audience tries to argue or deny that. :shrug:



Again, :shesaid:

I am very hopeful that now the tired old triangle is finally resolved, they can get Kate's character back on track. And they certainly paired her up with the right guy, IMO, to bring her back to herself. I think that simpering after Jack, and constantly begging for his approval, was what really weakened her character (as well as being in the middle of the Jack & Sawyer tug-o-war). She's stronger on her own, or with Sawyer backing her up, and it's going to be nice to (hopefully!) get her back to that! :biggrin:
100%


Are you referring to his comment to Jack? The "don't believe her...she will do anything to get away"?

Well, we've seen that she pretty much will do anything to get away...except, apparently, run without Sawyer. ;)
Well that was certainly a good read. lol
I think...think, the reason people are "kicking their feet and screaming" is because of the fact that, wait there...let me think this over again ....she didn't say it. She said it to her husband and she actually loved the guy. I'm not saying that she doesn't care for Sawyer but she certainly could have just said those damn words and got it over with. There was nothing in the situation that meant she couldn't...oh, except for Jack.
We even had an explanation from Kate herself, post confrontation 'confession' that the only reason she did it was to stop them from beating him to death. And then just so happened to turn around and chant "Live together. Die alone." Now who said that before...wait Jack! How can I keep forgetting him. My bad. ;)

I really don't see how any status of the writers has an effect on how the show is written. It's like your saying straight people can't hairdress. lol.
So the last thing they wanted was their outlaws getting 'lovey dovey' and saying 'I wuv you' ?... But I though you liked Sawyers proclaimation of this? I think right then more than ever, there was need for words, biggest, obvious, in your face, confession, would have been perfect timing there, and it would have settle the whole thing. But of course sex does tell you everything, it was like having a narration of everything Kate wanted to say.
Now Sawyer saying 'I love you too' sounded more as if he was a tad disappointed that he hadn't been replied to. If you read, you'd be able to see why people won't accept silence as an answer, it's talked about enough.

Really I just cannot wait for this season to get back, just a matter of time.

My comment was about how he said, 'no matter how she makes you feel' part.

And yet, everyone knows that Kate was in love with Kevin, because she told him and she told the Marshall. Yes, she left him, but she was genuinely in love with him. Doesn't it strike you as odd that her flashback revealed that she is capable of vocally admitting her feelings to the person that she loved and yet when Sawyer asked her that question (which was now brought up a second time) she made no response but instead kissed him? The ambiguity in that is outstanding. Her kissing Sawyer to avoid the question proves nothing.

Kate's personality and attitude is worse when she is around Sawyer, so in that regard, I'm going to dislike that aspect of her, or her, when she is around him. And who someone picks does have some bearing on what people think of that character. That's just the way it is lol.

Well the Marshall did say this:

"Listen to me - no matter what she does - no matter how she makes you feel, don't you trust a word that she says"Makes it seem that actions speak louder than words if you put that into context with her initial response to whether she loves Sawyer doesn't it? The bottom line is she is finally able to stop running because of him. She couldn't do this in any case previously - I think she did love Kevin, in fact she pretty much admitted to that previously way back in the I Never game with Sawyer. It just "didn't last long" did it? I guess it does remain to be seen if it can last long with Sawyer. I think it has the potential of staying the course. Coming back to Kate, this is because for the first time ever, she has shown her ability to do what she has never shown the ability to do before and again that is to stay. This alone raises my admiration for her, she is now able to do something she couldn't do in her previous life.

It's your opinion Krystal that Kate's personality changes when she's around Sawyer, IMO it doesn't. I think she is able to change her attitude alright, only for the better. However that is my opinion.


Blame the writers for this one then, because they are the ones that have reduced Kate to nothing more than "triangle chick." And as much as some of you want to believe, I don't think the triangle is over, even though I personally would like for it to be.Whether the triangle is over or not, does not in my opinion have any bearing on whether I like Kate or not. I won't be changing it regardless.


If you had read my earlier comments you would have seen that I personally don't think the writers can write Kate as both a romantic character meeting Sawyers needs, and a tough adventureous one where she interacts with other characters. Be it as they may try, I think they will be unsuccessful.I have to say I don't have as poor an opinion of the writers - they have done a fantastic job of the show so far, hence the reason I'm still watching and I'll continue to watch no matter course Kate will take in the future.


I am very hopeful that now the tired old triangle is finally resolved, they can get Kate's character back on track. And they certainly paired her up with the right guy, IMO, to bring her back to herself. I think that simpering after Jack, and constantly begging for his approval, was what really weakened her character (as well as being in the middle of the Jack & Sawyer tug-o-war). She's stronger on her own, or with Sawyer backing her up, and it's going to be nice to (hopefully!) get her back to that! :biggrin:
100%
.

:shesaid: I do agree here.

What this means for the present story is anyone's guess. But I'd say it's oversimplifying things to say that the only way to tell how Kate feels - this gifted, perfect liar - is to trust only in what she says.


Excellent way of putting it, Duffy, spot on. That's exactly what I believe TPTB were illustrating. We had heard Kate say the words over and over to Kevin, and in the end, they meant nothing. Having her show Sawyer that she loves him was much, much more meaningful. :heart:

And judging by the new ABC promo, it looks like we're going to be getting the "old" Kate back when the season resumes. She and Sawyer are really whooping some tail!! :clap:

It still boggles my mind that some cannot (or perhaps will not?) seem to grasp the concept that Damon and Carlton delivered to us in Sawyer & Kate's post-coital scene.

So just because some of us don't see how sex equals commitment and that her kissing Sawyer doesn't necessarily mean I love you, we're not grasping the concepts that Damon and Carlton delivered to us in the post-coital scene? I respectfully disagree. They made it ambiguous for a reason and I'm not sure if TPTB were just playing dumb on the podcast or if they genuinely expected all of the audience to realize that Kate is in love with Sawyer with the way they set up that scene, but whatever the case, they failed. If they had set that scene up properly, then many of us wouldn't be having this debate right now, but the fact that we are (and it's not just the people on the fuselage) says to me that TPTB wanted that scene to be ambiguous and they did it on purpose. They had a reason for her not saying I love you when Sawyer asked, in juxtapostion to her flashback which showed Kate does say "I love you" to the people that she is genuinely in love with.

I see a few that continue to kick their feet and scream "but she didn't say the words!!!"

Oh it's more than just a few. Ask anybody that isn't an online fanatic if they thought Kate loved Sawyer and you will get more no's then yes's. How do I know this? Because I've asked. I also don't think it's fair to say we are kicking and screaming like a little kid just because a few of us on this thread disagree with your take on the scene. We were previously having a respectful debate.

Um...did they watch the rest of the episode?

Yes I did actually.

Did they see how Kate's flashback showed her saying the words "I love you" a zillion and one times to her husband? And did they see how those words were meaningless, because she could not back them up with her actions.

Those words were anything but meaningless. She geniunely loved Kevin and wanted to stay with him, but she thought once he found out the type of person that she was, he wouldn't love her. She made up her mind long before giving Kevin a chance to accept her fugitive status and in a sense made up Kevin's mind as well by drugging him and then leaving.

Kate did love Kevin, but not enough to stop running.

And less than seven days ago island time, she still wanted to run. She has changed and maybe will completely stop running, but only time will tell.

We finally saw her stop running in the mini-season...she stopped running for Sawyer.

I wouldn't say that. She stopped running because there was no place for her to run to.


The actions that she took in these 6 episodes illustrated exactly what TPTB wanted them to...that she has at last realized that Sawyer ain't such a bad guy, she's at last stopped fighting her feelings for him, and has admitted that she's fallen for him.

Kate always felt that Sawyer wasn't such a bad guy. And in which scene did Kate admit that she had fallen for Sawyer? Kate admitted nothing to Sawyer. Physical attraction is all they have and now that they have slept together, there is no place for these two to go.

So the last thing that D&C were going to deliver was Sawyer and Kate, their "outlaws", their dangerous and unpredictable bad boy/girl, be lovey dovey with the "Ohhhh, I wuv you!" "I wuv you more!" scenario.

And why not? They have given Sawyer several mushy lines, so why not have Kate (since she is capable of love) say I love you to him? He even said it to her lol.

The way they wrote it was, IMO, perfectly in character and utterly believable for those two.

And this is your opinion. Many are going to feel differently. Until it is made clearer on the show, or the writers come right out and say yes, Kate does indeed love Sawyer, I'm going to have a different interpration than you on that scene and many that follow.


Kate had already said the words - - there was no need for verbal repetition there, not when she could show him the answer to his question in a much more meaningful and touching way.

You're correct, Kate said the words, but to Kevin, not Sawyer. And you keep speaking about showing him the answer. Kate has kissed a lot of men in her flashbacks, including the bank robbers. Are we to believe that she loved all of those men as well? She never said that she did, but boy did she plant a big ole kiss on that one guy lol. You said it yourself that Kate is a dangerous bad girl. Who's to say she wasn't being devious in this scene?

And to have Kate repeat her earlier confession would have taken a little wind out of the sails of Sawyer's first-time saying the "L" word. Sawyer's reply was D&C's way of telling the audience that yes, Kate does indeed love Sawyer.

This doesn't make sense. It seems that you know a lot of how Damon and Carlton love to tell their story. Sawyer's replies are his and his alone. It didn't show how Kate felt lol.


He (Sawyer) understood what she was saying with her kisses, looks and smiles, thus his reply of "I love you, too". "I love you, too" = "I love you as well", or "I love you in return". I'm just still not sure why some of the viewing audience tries to argue or deny that. :shrug:

Sawyer may have wanted something to be there that isn't. I'm also not sure I understand why you can't accept that not everyone is going to share your opinion.

I am very hopeful that now the tired old triangle is finally resolved, they can get Kate's character back on track.

If the triangle is resolved, then why do so many people (excluding the Jaters) say that it isn't?

And they certainly paired her up with the right guy, IMO, to bring her back to herself.

Kate will never be who she wants to be (which is a better person) with Sawyer. Sawyer will keep her in the same old rut that she doesn't want to remain in. She doesn't want to be like her mother. I guess she'll have to experience that herself (and now she has the chance with Jack gone) before she realizes that she is making the same mistake that her mother made.

I think that simpering after Jack, and constantly begging for his approval, was what really weakened her character (as well as being in the middle of the Jack & Sawyer tug-o-war).

But atleast when Kate was around Jack, she was a pleasant person while still maintaining the take charge, tough persona. If you ask me, she is weakened by Sawyer because he doesn't allow her to grow and be that pleasant person that she wants to be.

She's stronger on her own, or with Sawyer backing her up, and it's going to be nice to (hopefully!) get her back to that!

No, Kate is stronger with Jack. You saw Kate during the first six episodes when her "supposed strength" was right across in the cage from her. She was a total wreck.


Well, we've seen that she pretty much will do anything to get away...except, apparently, run without Sawyer. ;)

Then why did she tell Sawyer to get out of his cage and run while she would have stayed behind? I believe she told him twice to do this without the initiative that she herself was going to take off with him.

I wouldn't say that. She stopped running because there was no place for her to run to.


And because she didn't want to leave Jack. Even if she's with Sawyer, Jack's still her friend who she has many, many memories with, and deep emotions with.

Kate's flashback with Kevin proved a lot of things. It proved that Kate can lie on a level most of us can't conceive of. It proved she was drawn to standard type conventional men as a refuge from the life her own bad behavior had created for her. It proved she would stoop to anything, including destroying a man's career and breaking his heart, to get what she wanted out of him.

Here it is again, someone saying that Kate would stoop to anything to get what she wanted. Then why is it so hard to believe that Kate might have been deceitful in the post-coital scene and that the kiss was used as trickery so that she wouldn't have to tell him she didn't love him? It's amazing that you can rationalize Kate's flashback behavior and call her this or that, but when Sawyer comes into the picture, Kate's actions are clear as crystals and mean exactly what you say they mean.


But one thing it didn't prove is that Kate's words are the same as her feelings. Love can never involve deceit and manipulation and cruelty of the sort she gave to Kevin.

But yet when she is being deceitful and manipulating Sawyer, then it's called love?

Whatever she said, we know for sure that in the past, Kate didn't know what love was at all, and her words were less than meaningless.

I disagree. The looks she gave her husband were those of love. In contrast, if you compare the looks she gives Sawyer, most of the time they are of disgust and repulsion. So besides not answering the question of if she really loved him, the looks she gives him on a daily basis must also mean that she loves him, correct?

I don't know what you mean by "meeting Sawyer's needs" when you say Kate can't be written as an adventurous heroine while she's in love with Sawyer. But I'm sure she can definitely be written as both a lover and a heroine.

I dont think she can. The tough, adventurous heroine is non-existent when she is around Sawyer.
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Makes it seem that actions speak louder than words if you put that into context with her initial response to whether she loves Sawyer doesn't it? The bottom line is she is finally able to stop running because of him.

This astounds me. Kate didn't stop running because of Sawyer lol. Twice she told Sawyer to run, without her no less. So I'm not sure why some are still using this argument.

Whether the triangle is over or not, does not in my opinion have any bearing on whether I like Kate or not. I won't be changing it regardless.

So you will still like and admire Kate then if she ends up with Jack?

Kate's flashback with Kevin proved a lot of things. It proved that Kate can lie on a level most of us can't conceive of. It proved she was drawn to standard type conventional men as a refuge from the life her own bad behavior had created for her. It proved she would stoop to anything, including destroying a man's career and breaking his heart, to get what she wanted out of him. But one thing it didn't prove is that Kate's words are the same as her feelings. Love can never involve deceit and manipulation and cruelty of the sort she gave to Kevin. Whatever she said, we know for sure that in the past, Kate didn't know what love was at all, and her words were less than meaningless.


Right, she lied to the man she loved so they could be happy together? Now I'm sure no one has conceived that idea. It was obvious in the flashback she loved him, and how heartbroken she was to leave him, and heartbroken that she wasn't carrying his child. She didn't want to ruin his career so drugged him so he wouldn't remember. She loved him. Her heart broke too.

What exactly is it she wanted from him?

Her words were not at all meaningless. She was so unbelievably happy with Kevin; more than when we've seen her with any other character. Not even Sawyer who she's so in love with. So much she doesn't need to say it, and the one time she does, she retracts it! Surely if you loved a man, you wouldn't purposely hurt him by telling him you did, then saying you didn't? Or is that deceit and manipulation and cruelty alright?

This astounds me. Kate didn't stop running because of Sawyer lol. Twice she told Sawyer to run, without her no less. So I'm not sure why some are still using this argument.

When Kate told Sawyer to run, she didn't know they were on a different island. She also never told him to run without her. She wanted him to run to save his life at that point.


So you will still like and admire Kate then if she ends up with Jack?

Please read one of my previous posts here. I did say that I would, I wouldn't understand why she'd choose Jack but I'd still be interested in her as a character & would enjoy seeing her reasons for her actions no matter what.

This astounds me. Kate didn't stop running because of Sawyer lol. Twice she told Sawyer to run, without her no less. So I'm not sure why some are still using this argument.

How does Kate telling Sawyer "I'm not leaving you, Sawyer" and "we're gettin' out of here now" equate to her telling him to run without her? :confused:

No, Kate is stronger with Jack. You saw Kate during the first six episodes when her "supposed strength" was right across in the cage from her. She was a total wreck.

I think you are taking things a little out of context here. As our very own Gregg Nations has discussed, Kate being caught and held in captivity was one of her biggest fears. She's been running and trying to stay free for years. And now she was imprisoned, handcuffed, psychologically threatened and felt helpless to do anything. This had NOTHING to do with Sawyer. And then what do we see? He cheers her up, makes her smile, gives her something else to think about. Bolsters her flagging with a kiss, and a fight. And tells her he's got a plan to get them both free. We slowly see Kate getting her spirit and will to fight or escape come back - and why? Because of Sawyer. Partly because he's supporting her but also because his life is being threatened.

We have seen Jack order Kate not to do things, not to carry dynamite, not to go on a trek, or question her motives for going on treks or just plain disapprove of what she plans to do. He's not as supportive as you think of 'adventurous' Kate if it doesn't fit with his own plans. He doesn't like giving her guns to protect herself, did you notice that? Sawyer on the other hand doesn't hold back Kate from being proactive and take charge, he supported and encouraged her in Homecoming, the Hunting Party, Maternity Leave, for example.

Kate's hero worship of Jack has led her to be weakwilled, apologetic of who and what she is, to second guess herself and her abilities. This is not good for her self esteem issues. We see in her glass wall scene with Jack her being reduced to a blubbering mess (yet again). Once again begging for forgiveness and once again paralysed because she's put so much hope in Jack to save the day for her.

The final scene in I Do was amazing because we saw feisty Kate again, trying to fight, urging Sawyer to fight even if it meant she was shot and killed.

And it looks like:

We are going to see much more kick butt, action, resourceful, tough and plucky Kate WITH Sawyer, and sans Jack. Although technically I don't think it's about Sawyer, as it is about Kate having to reach down inside and go into survival mode again. I can't wait to see Kate rely on her own strengths and help protect herself and her friends with the experience and abilities that we have been shown in the past. It's about bloody time if you ask me. No more Jack outshooting her with oneshots please.

I for one would love to see a self-possessed Kate who's not worrying about which guy to impress but is dealing with keeping everyone alive and helping them to move forward in living on this treacherous island. Her fugitive skills are going to prove very handy I would suspect. Perhaps we might even see some of her leadership abilities emerge without Jack constantly around to make her self conscious about her past and her 'goodness' or lack thereof.

Right, she lied to the man she loved so they could be happy together? Now I'm sure no one has conceived that idea. It was obvious in the flashback she loved him, and how heartbroken she was to leave him, and heartbroken that she wasn't carrying his child. She didn't want to ruin his career so drugged him so he wouldn't remember. She loved him. Her heart broke too.

What exactly is it she wanted from him?

Her words were not at all meaningless. She was so unbelievably happy with Kevin; more than when we've seen her with any other character. Not even Sawyer who she's so in love with. So much she doesn't need to say it, and the one time she does, she retracts it! Surely if you loved a man, you wouldn't purposely hurt him by telling him you did, then saying you didn't? Or is that deceit and manipulation and cruelty alright?

She wasn't heartbroken not to be carrying his child. She was heartbroken to think she might have compounded her cruel deceit by bringing a child into an inexcusable web of lies and fraud.

I realize she had what felt like love for Kevin. But like I said, it can never be love to deceive someone in that magnitude. That was a harsh and selfish cruelty. If it was love, it was only a self serving love. What did she want from him? Security. Sanctuary. An escape from the consequences of her crimes.

Maybe, like Krystal says, they are showing a parallel, that Kate is also manipulating and deceiving Sawyer. If so, I can't imagine what she's gaining out of it. Can you, Krystal? And I also can't believe the writers have decided, midway through the series' run, to completely blackball their GG nominated leading lady. Is it possible they are setting up a story where Kate has manipulated Sawyer, who loves her, by making him think she loves him back? Anything is possible, but I'd have to see what Kate is gaining from the situation first to read it that way.

ETA to agree with Zoriah that it looks like:
We will not have to wait long to see Kate back to her fighting ways. It is great to see them fight side by side, first one then the other take the lead, a pair of equals. I think right there in those quick promo shots, we can see that Krystal's fear that Kate can't be an adventurous hero while by Sawyer's side is entirely unfounded. Looks like it starts within the first few minutes back!

And they are certainly not being subtle as to the nature of her feelings for Sawyer either, not judging by the opening shot and the word LOVE.

And it looks like:

We are going to see much more kick butt, action, resourceful, tough and plucky Kate WITH Sawyer, and sans Jack.

Yes, to rescue Jack lol. She is back in fighting mode to rescue the guy she loves.

Anyway, here in a few minutes I have to run, and since I do not have the time to repsond to all of those I wanted to, I've decided to repsond to no one lol.

She wasn't heartbroken not to be carrying his child. She was heartbroken to think she might have compounded her cruel deceit by bringing a child into an inexcusable web of lies and fraud.
So why was she crying? Those were not tears of joy. You'd think you'd be relieved if you realised your "cruel deceit" was compounded.

And honestly, you're making Kate seem a lot worse than she is.

I realize she had what felt like love for Kevin. But like I said, it can never be love to deceive someone in that magnitude. That was a harsh and selfish cruelty. If it was love, it was only a self serving love. What did she want from him? Security. Sanctuary. An escape from the consequences of her crimes.
Isn't all love self serving then? You know, you wanting to be happy for the rest of your life? And Kate giving Kevin love and a wife and a happy home (until she ran) is selfish too? Alright, lyings wrong and not justifiable but love is a strong emotion and conquers all.

And I suppose it's the same with Sawyer, right? She's being selfish with him too? Or is it okay with a conman?

turtlepixie, I'm not making Kate worse than she is. What she did to Kevin was horrible, unforgivable. Kate has lived a very bad life. I don't think we have to whitewash Kate's guilt in order to like her. In fact, she's one of my favorite characters. But I like her because of the contradictions, not because she's really deep down a sweetie pie.

She was crying because she didn't want to hurt him, and she knew she already had, horribly. Just like she's hurt pretty much all the other people she claimed to love. I don't like Kate because she's wonderful. I like her because she's been given a complex, morally contradictory back story and we are watching this kind of person evolve in a life & death situation. It's fascinating, and as long as the writers don't turn her into a soap opera queen, I am looking forward to it becoming a great story.

I realize she had what felt like love for Kevin. But like I said, it can never be love to deceive someone in that magnitude. That was a harsh and selfish cruelty. If it was love, it was only a self serving love. What did she want from him? Security. Sanctuary. An escape from the consequences of her crimes.

Maybe, like Krystal says, they are showing a parallel, that Kate is also manipulating and deceiving Sawyer. If so, I can't imagine what she's gaining out of it. Can you, Krystal?


I agree, that there could be a parallel, and really you answered your own question beforehand, she wanted security, sanctuary, and an escape from everything that was going on around her.

I agree, that there could be a parallel, and really you answered your own question beforehand, she wanted security, sanctuary, and an escape from everything that was going on around her.

Can you show me where she got "security, sanctuary and an escape" from Sawyer? Seems like exactly the opposite.

I still like Kate, though this season, and especially in I Do, her character was different from earlier seasons. I think it is mostly due to the fact that she was imprisoned, as others have pointed out. She is contained...opposite to the freedom she had as she helped lead expeditions in the jungle, climb trees for fruit, hunt boars with Sawyer, take Claire to the medical hatch....
Other details include her weird wardrobe supplied by the others, her hair being down most of the time (it DOES change how she looks and acts, I think), and the general somber mood she's in due to the physical labor, watching Sawyer get beat up, and of course, being locked up.
I thought the imprisonment being paralleled with her backstory was awesome. She was trapped in suburbia and didn't seem to happy to me. I think she was trying to live a comfortable life and I was almost convinced that it was what she really wanted, but when she told Kevin, "I don't do taco night!", it seemed that she knew her personality wasn't meant to be confined to a role of service and domestication.

To reply to the shipper stuff:
I agree with the posters who think she is a stronger character around Sawyer than Jack. I think it's mostly because Jack is controlling and can be very condescending, and she tries to be on his good side so she takes it most of the time. When Sawyer has been rude to her in the past, she understands where his anger is coming from. The source of Jack's rude behavior is probably more inaccessible to her.

I think her lack of a verbal "I love you" to Sawyer is a way for TPTB to keep up the hopes of the Jaters, which is easily proven by looking at some of the Jater's 'evidence' that Kate doesn't really love Sawyer.

Damon Lindleloff, in the last podcast, pointed out that people who thought she hadn't made her choice must not have thought sex is a very important act. I've seen some people posting that "it was only sex". Personally, I think it's a lot easier to fake saying "I love you", than actively engaging in sexual relations with passion.

I'm most interested in seeing how their relationship is accepted, or not, by the other survivors, rather than how it will be with Jack. But I may be the only person who is still interested in the triangle, mostly because I thought the writers did a good job with it...they made it interesting, and the Jack and Sawyer characters were so unique (who's really the hero? who's really the villain? see "Confidence Man"). Not to mention, Kate's unique character, who didn't choose the "good" doctor over the "bad boy".

:topicoff: No shipper stuff!:hissy: Kate is Kate, not Jate or Skate or whatever!:mad: She's a strong person.

Okay, topic dropped, adam. :biggrin:

On another note, does anyone else miss clean Kate? lol I want to give her a bath, and shove her back in her old clothes! :laughing: I'm not too keen on the Others attire.

yeah, I don't like them clothes either. When she and Sawyer get back to the beach I'm sure she'll change.

I miss seeing Kate in jeans and tank tops too. And her hair in a bouncy ponytail! lol

Clean nice picture of Kate (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n275/kickflip_chick/normal_thecase279Kateclean.jpg), dirty (but not as dirty as I first thought...still dirtier lol) Kate (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n275/kickflip_chick/normal_3x03-ballerina-cap408Kate.jpg) :laughing: Still once back at the beach I'm sure she'll gladly dispose of the current clothing.

I thin I like her but a little less than before.
But I know she will have great time in the future!

Clean nice picture of Kate (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n275/kickflip_chick/normal_thecase279Kateclean.jpg), dirty (but not as dirty as I first thought...still dirtier lol) Kate (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n275/kickflip_chick/normal_3x03-ballerina-cap408Kate.jpg) :laughing: Still once back at the beach I'm sure she'll gladly dispose of the current clothing.

Hee. I almost forgot she didn't always look so dirty. That photo was a nice reminder.

I thin I like her but a little less than before.
But I know she will have great time in the future!

I hope so too! Escaping in a canoe is like using a Huffy bike as a getaway vehicle.

I love Kate, full stop. Except for Ben and John, she's my favorite character.

Part of it is, as the son of a career Air Force guy, I relate to her upbringing on military bases (though we haven't really seen how that affected her). Mostly, though, it's because she's complex and really handy with a gun. :)

As for the never-ending Great Shipper Wars --they're like the 100 Years War, only more brutal-- I have a perfect solution.

James: Pick me! Pick me, Kate! We're, like, soulmates.....or something.
Jack: [crying] No Kate, pick ME! I knew we were destined for each other after you did such a good job stitching me up after the crash! [continues crying, puts head in hands]
Kate: Stop it! Both of you! Listen to me--I'm not a piece of meat, I'm not anyone's property. You both will get me--on my terms. I love you both for different reasons, and I want both of you, this isn't going to end with me and only one of you living happily ever behind a white picket fence. Now, you two, figure out a way to get your male ego's in check and deal with it.

Hee. Touché. lol

I love Kate also - full stop. And I identify with her also, a little differently than Jeremy I think, but very intuitively. I was in the Coast Guard for four years, did boot camp, did search and rescue, and had an experience that reminds me of hers. Surrounded by beautiful men everywhere...um, and some not so beautiful ones...but focussed not on them most of the time, rather on proving myself worthy of their respect. I'd always take the men's course - in running, obstacle training, pushups - never the "female alternate". In fact the alternate being available annoyed me, and I didn't respect the girls who took it. My favorite thing was to overhear some guys muttering about me in formation "Oh, yeah, her? She's cool." That would make my day. So I think I know where Kate is coming from, being the girl among the guys, and wanting to be respected on my merits, but knowing always how men's reflexes around women don't usually operate that way.

I don't want to see any guy on this show ever "get" Kate. And I don't want Kate to ever get split like Solomon's baby. The concept is as offensive to me as the "female alternate" was. I want to see her as a fully developed individual character, as a human being, not just a sexual prize between alpha males.

I think the most irritating thing about this shipper contest that rages on incessantly is that it makes it impossible to discuss the place that a real romance has in the life of this character. I think watching Kate be committed to a man, to show why and how she loves one man, is a good story, because a passionate, strongwilled fighter like Kate will show her best side in that kind of strong story. Showing Kate as a weakwilled vacillator who wants to pacify two different men by 'sharing' herself "in different ways" , or as a confused woman who doesn't know which one she loves, or as a woman in love with one man but incomprehensibly sleeps with another...are all abhorrent to me. Awful storylines that thoroughly disrespect and demean the character.

I understand shipper discontent when one's chosen storyline doesn't materialize. But the problem this discussion runs into now shouldn't extend beyond shipper threads. I find it's impossible to discuss the storyline the writers have chosen without encountering shipper snark that then invites arguments (from other shippers) and ridicule (from non shippers). It's unnecessary and doesn't belong here. Rather than discussing the merits of Kate's choice, I'd just like to be free to enjoy and discuss the storyline as it stands.

I want to see Kate depicted as the strong character I feel she is meant to be. Strong people know their own hearts and minds and don't vacillate and behave incoherently. The writers can't create a strong character if they don't have her make strong choices and stick by them. So yes, I still like Kate, because I think the writers have created a character that is too unique and strong and fascinating to be used as nothing but a sexual volleyball. I'm tuning in with a lot of optimism that the weak, crying, tagalong Kate of Season Two has been relegated to the scrap heap - and I think there's every reason to have that hope.

I love Kate also - full stop. And I identify with her also, a little differently than Jeremy I think, but very intuitively. I was in the Coast Guard for four years, did boot camp, did search and rescue, and had an experience that reminds me of hers. Surrounded by beautiful men everywhere...um, and some not so beautiful ones...but focussed not on them most of the time, rather on proving myself worthy of their respect. I'd always take the men's course - in running, obstacle training, pushups - never the "female alternate". In fact the alternate being available annoyed me, and I didn't respect the girls who took it. My favorite thing was to overhear some guys muttering about me in formation "Oh, yeah, her? She's cool." That would make my day. So I think I know where Kate is coming from, being the girl among the guys, and wanting to be respected on my merits, but knowing always how men's reflexes around women don't usually operate that way.

I don't want to see any guy on this show ever "get" Kate. And I don't want Kate to ever get split like Solomon's baby. The concept is as offensive to me as the "female alternate" was. I want to see her as a fully developed individual character, as a human being, not just a sexual prize between alpha males.

I think the most irritating thing about this shipper contest that rages on incessantly is that it makes it impossible to discuss the place that a real romance has in the life of this character. I think watching Kate be committed to a man, to show why and how she loves one man, is a good story, because a passionate, strongwilled fighter like Kate will show her best side in that kind of strong story. Showing Kate as a weakwilled vacillator who wants to pacify two different men by 'sharing' herself "in different ways" , or as a confused woman who doesn't know which one she loves, or as a woman in love with one man but incomprehensibly sleeps with another...are all abhorrent to me. Awful storylines that thoroughly disrespect and demean the character.

I understand shipper discontent when one's chosen storyline doesn't materialize. But the problem this discussion runs into now shouldn't extend beyond shipper threads. I find it's impossible to discuss the storyline the writers have chosen without encountering shipper snark that then invites arguments (from other shippers) and ridicule (from non shippers). It's unnecessary and doesn't belong here. Rather than discussing the merits of Kate's choice, I'd just like to be free to enjoy and discuss the storyline as it stands.

I want to see Kate depicted as the strong character I feel she is meant to be. Strong people know their own hearts and minds and don't vacillate and behave incoherently. The writers can't create a strong character if they don't have her make strong choices and stick by them. So yes, I still like Kate, because I think the writers have created a character that is too unique and strong and fascinating to be used as nothing but a sexual volleyball. I'm tuning in with a lot of optimism that the weak, crying, tagalong Kate of Season Two has been relegated to the scrap heap - and I think there's every reason to have that hope.

Terrific post, Duffy. I think any woman who's had to struggle to get her place at the table will identify with Kate. I know one thing that's irritated a lot of viewers is her "I'm coming with" attitude. But it's a good attitude; Kate has more skills than most of the men on the island and she shouldn't have to ask to be included--it should be assumed she'd come with because she's useful.

And doubly terrific on the negative effects of the on-going triangle story on the strong, I'm-coming-too fugitive we learned to love in S1. Everything else we've seen of Kate, both in backstory and on-island, suggests she can make a difficult decision and go forward. Like you, that's what I want to see her do: make a commitment, but also go on staking out a place for herself in island society and leadership.

I love Kate also - full stop. And I identify with her also, a little differently than Jeremy I think, but very intuitively. I was in the Coast Guard for four years, did boot camp, did search and rescue, and had an experience that reminds me of hers. Surrounded by beautiful men everywhere...um, and some not so beautiful ones...but focussed not on them most of the time, rather on proving myself worthy of their respect. I'd always take the men's course - in running, obstacle training, pushups - never the "female alternate". In fact the alternate being available annoyed me, and I didn't respect the girls who took it. My favorite thing was to overhear some guys muttering about me in formation "Oh, yeah, her? She's cool." That would make my day. So I think I know where Kate is coming from, being the girl among the guys, and wanting to be respected on my merits, but knowing always how men's reflexes around women don't usually operate that way.

I don't want to see any guy on this show ever "get" Kate. And I don't want Kate to ever get split like Solomon's baby. The concept is as offensive to me as the "female alternate" was. I want to see her as a fully developed individual character, as a human being, not just a sexual prize between alpha males.

I think the most irritating thing about this shipper contest that rages on incessantly is that it makes it impossible to discuss the place that a real romance has in the life of this character. I think watching Kate be committed to a man, to show why and how she loves one man, is a good story, because a passionate, strongwilled fighter like Kate will show her best side in that kind of strong story. Showing Kate as a weakwilled vacillator who wants to pacify two different men by 'sharing' herself "in different ways" , or as a confused woman who doesn't know which one she loves, or as a woman in love with one man but incomprehensibly sleeps with another...are all abhorrent to me. Awful storylines that thoroughly disrespect and demean the character.

I understand shipper discontent when one's chosen storyline doesn't materialize. But the problem this discussion runs into now shouldn't extend beyond shipper threads. I find it's impossible to discuss the storyline the writers have chosen without encountering shipper snark that then invites arguments (from other shippers) and ridicule (from non shippers). It's unnecessary and doesn't belong here. Rather than discussing the merits of Kate's choice, I'd just like to be free to enjoy and discuss the storyline as it stands.

I want to see Kate depicted as the strong character I feel she is meant to be. Strong people know their own hearts and minds and don't vacillate and behave incoherently. The writers can't create a strong character if they don't have her make strong choices and stick by them. So yes, I still like Kate, because I think the writers have created a character that is too unique and strong and fascinating to be used as nothing but a sexual volleyball. I'm tuning in with a lot of optimism that the weak, crying, tagalong Kate of Season Two has been relegated to the scrap heap - and I think there's every reason to have that hope.
Wonderful post, Duffy! I've always loved reading your posts about Kate because I feel that you really "get" her. Now I have a better understanding why, so thank you for giving me that context. I've loved her character right from the beginning for her determination to step up and claim a place in the activities of the leadership team, a place she seems more than well suited for. I cheered her on every single time she said "I'm going with you, " because I respect her abilities and her determination to have them valued and put to good use. She has a good heart that I believe motivates her desire to help move things forward or accomplish a goal, and I love that about her too.

Like you, I'm hoping to see her strong again in S3. I don't begrudge her moments of weakness here and there in a situation that would test anybody, as long as she continues to reach for that inner strength and determination that were so evident in her character from the beginning. However, I did tire of the kind of weakness she occasionally exhibited vis a vis Jack's disapproval, since it seemed to cut her down to a small uncertain child. I hope to see her shake that off completely and return to her strengths in S3, and considering the degree of resolve and determination she showed in the later episodes of the mini-arc, I am hopeful we're going to see some of the best episodes yet for Kate in this season.

As always, I'll look forward to reading your views on this character's development as we go along.

I want to see Kate depicted as the strong character I feel she is meant to be. Strong people know their own hearts and minds and don't vacillate and behave incoherently. The writers can't create a strong character if they don't have her make strong choices and stick by them. So yes, I still like Kate, because I think the writers have created a character that is too unique and strong and fascinating to be used as nothing but a sexual volleyball. I'm tuning in with a lot of optimism that the weak, crying, tagalong Kate of Season Two has been relegated to the scrap heap - and I think there's every reason to have that hope.

Hear, hear! Kate suffered greatly in parts of season two, and it was disheartening to see her character relegated into the role of "sexual volleyball" (as you so succinctly put it), and watching her simper after Jack, nipping at his heels for approval. I believe she was created to be much stronger than that, and it's going to be so great when they finally get her back to basics, and let her return to the passionate fireball we know she can be!

Hear, hear! Kate suffered greatly in parts of season two, and it was disheartening to see her character relegated into the role of "sexual volleyball" (as you so succinctly put it), and watching her simper after Jack, nipping at his heels for approval. I believe she was created to be much stronger than that, and it's going to be so great when they finally get her back to basics, and let her return to the passionate fireball we know she can be!

Defnitley agree. Kate is the jeans wearing, tank top sporting, convict with a heart of gold we all came to love.

Things would've been so much better and different for Kate had Jack and Sawyer died and things heated up between her and Sayid. Kate would've become like a prettier/sexier Ripley from the Alien movies or Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2.

I agree that S1 Kate was the most interesting and likable because she was such a strong and mysterious character and I still like her hoping that the writers will restore S1 Kate at some point.

I want to see her as a fully developed individual character, as a human being, not just a sexual prize between alpha malesYes, fully agree with that. Just to make it clear, my bit of faux-dialogue at the bottom of page 9 was more snark than a serious suggestion.Everything else we've seen of Kate, both in backstory and on-island, suggests she can make a difficult decision and go forward. Like you, that's what I want to see her do: make a commitment, but also go on staking out a place for herself in island society and leadershipAh, but that's the "genius" of partriarchy isn't it? It keeps women out of leadership positions by degrading those who seek it, saying "Real women don't want to lead". The way the Island society is currently structured, it's very male dominated, mostly by personality, but also by sheer numbers. Although I think Juliet was either scamming Jack or misinformed about being in a co-leadership position with Ben, it seems there's more equality in Otherville than at the Losties camp. I don't know if it's intentionally one of the themes of the show, but I think it's interesting that they've come to this place where they have pretty much a blank slate to start a new way of living, but, just like where they've come from, the men push their way to the front of the leadership line, almost as a perogative, and the women have to put the brakes on them and say "Hey, we deserve a voice too". However, I did tire of the kind of weakness she occasionally exhibited vis a vis Jack's disapproval, since it seemed to cut her down to a small uncertain childHmmm.....me too, but there *might* be a slightly plausible reason for that. With James, she's an equal, both in career :) and in social class; Jack is from a "higher" job/social strata, as it were, so it *might* play in to a feeling of inferiority on Kate's part, the feeling that Jack's approval is always with conditions. I thought the scene in the aquarium between them was amazing. The way Jack just melted when he first saw her but then became cold and unfeeling when he thought she was just a Ben/Juliet pawn. I believe she was created to be much stronger than that, and it's going to be so great when they finally get her back to basics, and let her return to the passionate fireball we know she can be!Agreed. I think it's the same thing the writers did with John: build him up > break him down > build him up again.

mmyeah ... was a bit worried earlier on in S3 with the love triangle bit. I think the backstory with her brief marriage to the cop (I can't remember his name ... sorry) mirrored that situation. Maybe a part of her thought that she really could "stop running and settle down with a man" on the island? The whole restart bit?

Then again, perhaps the shock of the whole love triangle / Jack telling her to run / getting it on with Sawyer after all that buildup was enough to rouse her from her restart fantasy. And it was good to see her regain some of her survivalist toughness. I don't think it was too big of a deal when she broke down again while recounting Jack's story to him - imho it was a very human touch to balance out her tough grrl-ness :biggrin: Gives her a lot of depth, if she didn't already have some!

And that's why I love me some Kate! Always have ... always will.

Kate yearns for the affections and attentions of both Sawyer and Jack, so I think we'll see a more tough and resolute Kate over the rest of the season or until she gets Jack back.

I think her flip flopping between Jack and Sawyer is ridiculous. I'm not going to be on Kate's side until she stops behaving like a 17 year old in high school unsure of which guy to take to the prom. I know women are fickle, but I haven't seen any woman behave this indecisively. This decision is not that difficult. If she wants to be with Sawyer, then she should chose him and let that be it.

I think her flip flopping between Jack and Sawyer is ridiculous. I'm not going to be on Kate's side until she stops behaving like a 17 year old in high school unsure of which guy to take to the prom. I know women are fickle, but I haven't seen any woman behave this indecisively. This decision is not that difficult. If she wants to be with Sawyer, then she should chose him and let that be it.
It's not Kate who is fickle, its the pre-pubescent & adolescent Lost fans that want their cake and to eat it too. :biggrin:
For the Skaters and Jaters, the battle is everything. Once the battle is won, what are the losers gonna do?

It's not Kate who is fickle, its the pre-pubescent & adolescent Lost fans that want their cake and to eat it too. :biggrin:
For the Skaters and Jaters, the battle is everything. Once the battle is won, what are the losers gonna do?

I suppose they will continue to moan and cry. The reason that battle is everything is because Kate has made it that way. She should make it obvious which man she wants to be with and treat him like her romantic partner. If she would do that, the other team would eventually have to move on. Right now though, they can't, because Kate herself keeps bouncing back and forth.

I've always liked Kate and I think I'll always continue to like Kate. She's an interesting character & I love it that not a lot knocks her down completely in life, she just continues on as best as she can in whatever circumstances she finds herself in. She may not always have chosen the right thing to do e.g. killing Wayne, but then she'd be less interesting if she didn't have her faults like the rest of the Losties have their own faults too.
I think that now that she has chosen between Sawyer/Jack, we will see more of her kick-*** self in upcoming epis. It's been difficult to show that side of her character while trapped in a cage. I hope we see this side of her character more for the remainder of this season.


That's well put Midnight!

I am a SKate...and like and enjoy their dynamic...but I am really over the Taco Night in a Cage crap. It felt like a breath of bloody fresh air to see her slam her rifle into ALDO'S head last night.

I miss Fugitive don't take any crap Kate. Evolve but don't get stagnant...know what I mean?

Either way...Looks like her kick a** days aren't done according to the preview.
:14happy::clapping:

Krystal : I think her flip flopping between Jack and Sawyer is ridiculous. I'm not going to be on Kate's side until she stops behaving like a 17 year old in high school unsure of which guy to take to the prom. I know women are fickle, but I haven't seen any woman behave this indecisively. This decision is not that difficult. If she wants to be with Sawyer, then she should chose him and let that be it.


I don't know if it's as cut and dry as all that. Maybe she's doing it for a reason...as in playing both sides of the field to get to someone..or FOR someone. Maybe she had Dharma connections back in the 'world' and that was the REAL reason she was chased half way around the world by the Marshall?

So many theories...sigh.

I think, in this show Kate has to be one of the most mysterious characters and can surprise you in a moments notice. Don't wine about her bouncing back and forth between Jack and Sawyer........Look at her childhood....... It's not bouncing it's about who she can trust with her past. Who won't judge her. How could a woman with her past trust any man!!!!!! Let alone a Redneck or a preppy Dr. To earn her trust will take more than just romance, it'll take time. And I don't think that there is enough time on the island. She won't choose one in my opinion, I think she will leave the island keeping her thoughts and most of her past to herself. I think that she is a woman of convenience, if your convenient, she'll use you. That's how she's had to live from day one.


Eagleman

Well hell...maybe the guys (:doctor::cowboy: are just too "easy"?

*snicker*

:D:happy_bounce::75happy:

she's a great character that's for sure. I'm glad she got tough with the guard outside where Karl was. That was awesome. I believe she really would have shot him too!
I'm glad she didn't though, I don't want the losties to be that violent so that the others have something to hate them for.

It's not bouncing it's about who she can trust with her past. Who won't judge her. How could a woman with her past trust any man!!!!!! Eagleman

Well this latest choice of hers, Sawyer, isn't very wise if she is looking for a man to trust. Who can trust a con man?

i could never stop! She is so strong but yet shes obviously not perfect. Just like jack. She is my idol-seriously!

I'm glad Kate is back to threatening to shoot off people's knees, it's fine right now because we've had a long break and it's like a new season, but I can't help but wonder how strange it will be to see Kate all helpless and easily apprehended by the others and then in epi 7 suddenly kicking butt again.

One thing we learned about Kate over the first six episodes...she's a lot more attractive when she's not crying. She looked absolutely wretched in that scene where she pleads with Jack to operate on Ben or else the others would kill Sawyer. She's not one of those quiet introverted cryers, she's the whining, foot-stomping, face-scrunching, sniffling type. Kudos to Losts' make-up department. I don't want to see that ever again though. Would much rather see Kate plotting and planning, with a determined expression on her face or pissed off with guns blazing.

I think her flip flopping between Jack and Sawyer is ridiculous. I'm not going to be on Kate's side until she stops behaving like a 17 year old in high school unsure of which guy to take to the prom. I know women are fickle, but I haven't seen any woman behave this indecisively. This decision is not that difficult. If she wants to be with Sawyer, then she should chose him and let that be it.

Kate did choose Sawyer. It may not remain her choice in the longterm bur for now she has chosen that man. I respectfully disagree that all women are fickle Krystal, I'm sure most would not appreciate being put into that category. I don't think Kate has been fickle either. It may have taken some time for her to admit to herself that she's in love and I can understand why - running away from that for the last no. of years of her life makes loving and committing to someone difficult and a scary prospect too, since she's always had to move on, just like she had to with Kevin.

I suppose they will continue to moan and cry. The reason that battle is everything is because Kate has made it that way. She should make it obvious which man she wants to be with and treat him like her romantic partner. If she would do that, the other team would eventually have to move on. Right now though, they can't, because Kate herself keeps bouncing back and forth.

I haven't seen Kate bouncing back & forth that much lately. I also think she did make it obvious that it's Sawyer that she has fallen in love with. I don't think Kate would want the whole romance thing - she doesn't strike me as the kind of girl that wants romantic strolls & flowers & all the usual things that go with romance. IMO real love involves a whole lot more than that & those type of things are not what really count at the end of the day.

That's well put Midnight!

Thank you LadybirdKate. It is what I genuinely like about Kate. I wish I had more of that aspect of her character myself, I always admire someone who takes the bull by the horns so to speak - it's an attractive quality & a sign of strength compared to someone who constantly feels the need for others to take care of them to lift them back up again when they're down.


I miss Fugitive don't take any crap Kate. Evolve but don't get stagnant...know what I mean?

Either way...Looks like her kick a** days aren't done according to the preview.
:14happy::clapping:


I think I know exactly what you mean! I'm looking forward to seeing more of that aspect of her character again too if they keep up some of her kick a** self she has shown already in Epi 7 :biggrin:

One thing we learned about Kate over the first six episodes...she's a lot more attractive when she's not crying. She looked absolutely wretched in that scene where she pleads with Jack to operate on Ben or else the others would kill Sawyer. She's not one of those quiet introverted cryers, she's the whining, foot-stomping, face-scrunching, sniffling type. Kudos to Losts' make-up department. I don't want to see that ever again though. Would much rather see Kate plotting and planning, with a determined expression on her face or pissed off with guns blazing.

No-one is as attractive when crying and I think Evie played that part very well & kept it very real. It appeared genuine that Kate was that upset don't you think? I do prefer to see Kate plotting and planning too though, it isn't nice to see any character that much upset all of the time & it's nice to see Kate doesn't feel defeated all of the time too!

No-one is as attractive when crying and I think Evie played that part very well & kept it very real. It appeared genuine that Kate was that upset don't you think? I do prefer to see Kate plotting and planning too though, it isn't nice to see any character that much upset all of the time & it's nice to see Kate doesn't feel defeated all of the time too!

I def. agree that Evie did a heck of a job over the six episode period..most def. her strongest performance yet on the show. Emmy worthy performance.
Emmy for Evie....hey that rhymes...sort of.
As for choosing Sawyer...it's not like the Others really gave her much of a choice in the matter eh? I'm sure she has strong feelings for him, probably does love him more than Jack, but the decision was still made under duress.
Anyways, knowing Kate as a character, I think she'd rather die than let the others see her weeping and vulnerable ever again. Would love to see how Kate would treat Ben, were he ever to become a prisoner of the Losties again. You think she'd offer Ben a nice breakfast banquet before all the pain begins? lol.

I can't say I'd agree with the Others forcing Kate to choose Sawyer. They may have been the two beside one another in cages but I didn't see the Others forcing Kate to visit Sawyer in his & making love to him. I'm sure that Kate is a strong enough character to refrain from putting herself out for a man if she chose to. I do think though that events leading up to Kate choosing Sawyer certainly contributed to her making that decision to go to him at that time. She was almost forced into admitting her own feelings for him to herself.


Anyways, knowing Kate as a character, I think she'd rather die than let the others see her weeping and vulnerable ever again. Would love to see how Kate would treat Ben, were he ever to become a prisoner of the Losties again. You think she'd offer Ben a nice breakfast banquet before all the pain begins? lol.

:laugh: Wouldn't put it past her to just offer him some fishbiscuits carefully laced with poison.

Well this latest choice of hers, Sawyer, isn't very wise if she is looking for a man to trust. Who can trust a con man?


Your right Crystal, she definately can't trust a con man, hell she's a con herself. I think she is working with Dharma and being the only one that remained conscous through the crash I think Dharma meant to land the plane ( Theory credited to Ladybirdkate, we were discusssing last night. )and Desmond screwed someting up. Kate is playing both sides of the coin.

Eagleman

Kate did choose Sawyer. It may not remain her choice in the longterm bur for now she has chosen that man.

I can't really call it a choice, because the only person pushed her way during captivity was Sawyer.

I respectfully disagree that all women are fickle Krystal, I'm sure most would not appreciate being put into that category.

I don't mean for it to sound like I am passing judgment on women lol, but since it's the shoe that fits, we wear it often. Women can be very indecisive when it comes to choosing men. I don't like that quality in us, but unfortunately, it's something that is just there.

I don't think Kate has been fickle either.

Kate has been very fickle. There wouldn't be such emphasis on the triangle if she weren't.

I haven't seen Kate bouncing back & forth that much lately.

But just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Even though I prefer Kate with Jack (or at least I used to) I wish that since she has chosen Sawyer that she would just admit her feelings to him and remain with him. But TPTB aren't playing the triangle that way. They still have her conflicted on which man she is going to be committed to. It drives me crazy lol. She had just slept with Sawyer and yet, on the walkie talkie it was evident that it was breaking her heart that she couldn't be with Jack. Where does her heart truly lie?

I also think she did make it obvious that it's Sawyer that she has fallen in love with.

As I mentioned above, I don't think it was evident. And judging by TPTB's comments that the triangle is not over, how can one say that she has fallen in love with Sawyer and only him?
100%
I'm sure that Kate is a strong enough character to refrain from putting herself out for a man if she chose to.

But if Kate was so in love with Sawyer, then why didn't she ever go to him on the beach, before they were captured? Now I know you can say that captivity forced her to open up her feelings, but her behavior displayed during captivity gave many of us mixed signals. She retracted an "I love you" statement after Sawyer had been beaten and then when asked about it for the second time, she didn't answer. You could argue that her kissing him was her way of saying that she did love him, but if captivity had forced those feelings out of her, then why did she retract that statement to begin with? There was no point in retracting it if she did genuinely love him. Now do you see why I call Kate fickle lol?

It's just as fickle for any of us to like Kate when she likes Jack, and stop liking her when she's with Sawyer.

It's just as fickle for any of us to like Kate when she likes Jack, and stop liking her when she's with Sawyer.

But at least it's taking a certain stance on the situation and sticking to it. The bottom line is, I will never like Kate when she is with Sawyer, because I just don't care for that relationship. Kate could have been with anybody else on that island and it wouldn't have bothered me. She could even have been with Tom and I would have accepted that lol. But she chose the one man (or did she?) that has done nothing for her except treat her badly. I won't go into the specifics on this thread, but the man doesn't treat her well at all.

Well I will like Kate for who she is and not conditionally. I believe that's what is important.

Well I will like Kate for who she is and not conditionally. I believe that's what is important.

The problem is, I don't know who Kate is and the parts of her that I do find appealing are when she is not around Sawyer lol. So that's where my decision stems from. But I think it's awesome that you are going to love Kate no matter what. :thumbsup:

The problem is, I don't know who Kate is and the parts of her that I do find appealing are when she is not around Sawyer lol. So that's where my decision stems from. But I think it's awesome that you are going to love Kate no matter what. :thumbsup:

Well, I said like, not love, but whatever. Loving someone "no matter what" I'll reserve for my children and close family. But if we're talking Kate's choice, that doesn't change who she is.

But if we're talking Kate's choice, that doesn't change who she is.

I can't really agree with you there, because Kate is a different person when she is around Sawyer than when she is around others. Again, I would rather not go into the details, but Kate has hinted at before that she doesn't like who she is when she is around Sawyer. She can't grow and be the person that she wants to be, because Sawyer keeps her in the same rut that she currently is in.

I can't really call it a choice, because the only person pushed her way during captivity was Sawyer.


So you're saying that Kate was forced to choose Sawyer then because he was the only man in captivity with her? I think if Kate loved any man whether it's Jack or otherwise, then she wouldn't have been throwing herself into another man's arms just because the other man is out of sight.


I don't mean for it to sound like I am passing judgment on women lol, but since it's the shoe that fits, we wear it often. Women can be very indecisive when it comes to choosing men. I don't like that quality in us, but unfortunately, it's something that is just there.

I can never agree with this. That's lumping all women into the same category. Obviously this has been your experience Krystal, I'm sorry to hear that, because I think women often fall in love & stay true to that love.


Kate has been very fickle. There wouldn't be such emphasis on the triangle if she weren't.

Even though the show seemed to want to demonstrate that Kate had to choose between the two men, I never took it that her heart lay with Jack or that she would choose him. She never convinced me that she wanted Jack that much in that way, even if TPTB wanted it to appear that that could have been the case. I think that Kate wanted to want Jack, but as falling in love is often not a choice in the first place, her heart just went to Sawyer.


But just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Even though I prefer Kate with Jack (or at least I used to) I wish that since she has chosen Sawyer that she would just admit her feelings to him and remain with him. But TPTB aren't playing the triangle that way. They still have her conflicted on which man she is going to be committed to. It drives me crazy lol. She had just slept with Sawyer and yet, on the walkie talkie it was evident that it was breaking her heart that she couldn't be with Jack. Where does her heart truly lie?

So far I have seen no evidence that TPTB are continuing with the triangle in the way they have done. I think her walkie talkie talk with Jack had to be emotional. She is loyal to him as a friend and I see it as her way of saying goodbye to a potential relationship with him. I believe that in next week's episode too, she says that she "owes him that" when discussing going back to save him. That to me speaks of loyalty, not love in the way that a woman loves a man. If she loved him, she would have said that differently, not that she "owes" him something.
It remains to be seen if Kate is going to be shown to be conflicted between the two men. If they go down this road, it could potentially damage Kate's character, so they would have to play that very carefully if they do. I don't see how they could convince most of the audience that she suddenly has such strong feelings for the other man after what has been shown to us so far this season.


As I mentioned above, I don't think it was evident. And judging by TPTB's comments that the triangle is not over, how can one say that she has fallen in love with Sawyer and only him?
100%

It does remain to be seen obviously. Evie herself said however that Kate responded perfectly to Sawyer in stating her love for him. She plays the character and obviously thought that that is where Kate's heart lies.


But if Kate was so in love with Sawyer, then why didn't she ever go to him on the beach, before they were captured? Now I know you can say that captivity forced her to open up her feelings, but her behavior displayed during captivity gave many of us mixed signals. She retracted an "I love you" statement after Sawyer had been beaten and then when asked about it for the second time, she didn't answer. You could argue that her kissing him was her way of saying that she did love him, but if captivity had forced those feelings out of her, then why did she retract that statement to begin with? There was no point in retracting it if she did genuinely love him. Now do you see why I call Kate fickle lol?

In the same way then, why didn't Kate go to Jack before they were captured then too, if she was in love with him? I don't think Kate gives her heart to any man that easily. For that reason too, I can't see her suddenly changing heart & going to Jack to tell him she loves him in a matter of days or weeks after choosing Sawyer. It's easy to say that Kate retracted her "I love you" because she didn't mean it. Evie herself thought she did mean it. She was reacting to the situation at the time and she was mad at Sawyer at that moment. I believe she retracted it because it isn't something that's easy for her to say and admit to herself. Not to someone else because we saw her tell Kevin countless times that she loved him and we know she didn't love him enough to do what she did to him. As the Marshal said, we can't always believe what she says. I think that actions speak louder than words with Kate.

I can't really agree with you there, because Kate is a different person when she is around Sawyer than when she is around others. Again, I would rather not go into the details, but Kate has hinted at before that she doesn't like who she is when she is around Sawyer. She can't grow and be the person that she wants to be, because Sawyer keeps her in the same rut that she currently is in.
I don't think she hinted to that she doesn't like who she is around Sawyer. I think that she said that she sees Wayne in Sawyer, because Sawyer has tried so hard to get people to hate him, but despite that, she sees something else. Something that keeps her coming back and have feelings for him. Wayne definitely is a ghost from her past, and Sawyer, when he IS "Sawyer", the persona he has made up, and not himself, THEN he resembles Wayne. Now however, I think his "Sawyer" persona is in the process of being washed out, and I think she can tell. That is why she chose to go with her heart.

I disagree that she is a different person around Sawyer. I think the person she is different around is Jack, because whenever he's around she's pretending to be this sweet, innocent girl that we know she isn't. I know I don't want her like that. I'd rather want her in her rifle slinging, take charge and do what needs to be done kind of way.

Well I will like Kate for who she is and not conditionally. I believe that's what is important.

AMEN to that. I mean Jack (for instance) went to be sort of interesting in the hero role to a major control freak during season 2. If anything he pushed Kate away, with the whole army forming Ana lucia takin a stroll along the golf course dealy-thingy.

As to Kate 'retracting' the " I love you" --I think that's part of their dynamic...They both know and (silently) understand that each other has been through the ringer. Saying it makes them more vulnerable..and quite frankly actions speak louder.

This is not to say that she dosen't care about Jack either...but caring and deep unspoken (because they dont need to be) feelings are two different things.

.MIDNIGHTSAWYER FAN WROTE: I don't think Kate would want the whole romance thing - she doesn't strike me as the kind of girl that wants romantic strolls & flowers & all the usual things that go with romance.

:flamethrower:<<YA THINK?! LMAO!!!!!!!!!

:flex::ninja::chopper:
100%
Oh yes definately Midnight and please don't forget the little flippy republican stepford wife hair she had going in I Do.

She's a chameleon...and I love that about her.

"What you see is what you get."....right Kevin?

At this point the conversation is just going to go in circles and it's going to turn into a shipper war. I'll say a few more concluding thoughts from your post and then I'm done with this thread. :)

So you're saying that Kate was forced to choose Sawyer then because he was the only man in captivity with her?

No. I'm saying that there was no choice, because Sawyer was the only one that Kate was able to be in contact with.

I think if Kate loved any man whether it's Jack or otherwise, then she wouldn't have been throwing herself into another man's arms just because the other man is out of sight.

My explanation to her having sex with Sawyer is simple. She felt that she needed close contact with someone, because she was so alone and so afraid. That's why it was so easy for her to jump right at him when he said a "sweet" line. She was completely at her lowest point and Sawyer was familiar territory for her. She needed to grab onto that familiar territory and hold it tight.

I can never agree with this. That's lumping all women into the same category. Obviously this has been your experience Krystal, I'm sorry to hear that, because I think women often fall in love & stay true to that love.

Well my experience comes from my viewing the behaviors of my friends and classmates. I am married and have been with my husband for seven years. And I never meant to imply all women are like that.

Even though the show seemed to want to demonstrate that Kate had to choose between the two men, I never took it that her heart lay with Jack or that she would choose him.

People on the opposite side, like myself, are going to disagree with you. We don't see her heart as laying with Sawyer, because up until her current situation, she had had ample opportunity to be with Sawyer but never took it.

So far I have seen no evidence that TPTB are continuing with the triangle in the way they have done.

This season has just begun.

I think her walkie talkie talk with Jack had to be emotional. She is loyal to him as a friend and I see it as her way of saying goodbye to a potential relationship with him.

I didn't see that at all. Like most of the Jaters and people that I have spoken to offline have mentioned, it was Jack who was saying goodbye to Kate for the time being. He was the one that broke off the conversation while Kate was still calling out his name.

I believe that in next week's episode too, she says that she "owes him that" when discussing going back to save him. That to me speaks of loyalty, not love in the way that a woman loves a man. If she loved him, she would have said that differently, not that she "owes" him something.

I'm reserving judgment on that until I see the context it was in. I highly doubt though that she would tell Locke and Sayid flat out that she loves Jack at this time.

I don't see how they could convince most of the audience that she suddenly has such strong feelings for the other man after what has been shown to us so far this season.

Why, they did it with Sawyer? Every day I speak to people that are so confused about how Kate's feelings could suddenly turn from loving Jack to loving Sawyer in such a short amount of time. You have to consider what was shown to us in seasons one and two. Season three is far from over and if the mini-arc is any indication, drastic things have occurred before.

It does remain to be seen obviously. Evie herself said however that Kate responded perfectly to Sawyer in stating her love for him. She plays the character and obviously thought that that is where Kate's heart lies.

Did you read Gregg's response when asked a question about that? It does put a spin on what Evi said in Lost magazine.

In the same way then, why didn't Kate go to Jack before they were captured then too, if she was in love with him?

I honestly think she wanted to try this on several occasions, but it would have been out of place considering the amount of growth that both Jack and Kate have to go through before a relationship between the two could take place. Now this is not something to be construed negatively. I think Kate, like you mentioned, wanted to want Jack, but because of her own insecurity issues and not feeling like she was good enough for him, that held her back from admitting her feelings.


I think that actions speak louder than words with Kate.

If we are going by actions and not words then, how would you explain all of the times she has looked at Sawyer with such disgust and disdain?

You are welcome to answer these questions, but I'm not going to return to this thread. You're welcome to pm me if you would like. :)

Maybe it was like looking in a mirror? From one con artist to another.

She's still my absolute favorite character, I loved her in Nogt in Portland so much! It made the episode much better for me.

At this point the conversation is just going to go in circles and it's going to turn into a shipper war. I'll say a few more concluding thoughts from your post and then I'm done with this thread. :)


I’m not trying to get into a shipper war here Krystal. Whether or not you choose to read this is fine by me, however I simply want to express my opinions on why I think Kate does what she does & why I think it’s in character for her. Unfortunately part of her choices lately have involved other characters i.e. the men, so it’s hard to get away from that to discuss where Kate is at now. I believe there’s always a choice, just because there was only one man there does not mean that Kate had no choice. Kate is well able to look after herself on her own & she did not have to even enter Sawyer’s cage in the first place.

Kate obviously wasn’t ready for any relationship with anybody prior to I Do. I think Kate chose Sawyer at this time because like these things can be in life, this was the right moment for her. Kate’s well used to being on the run, as we know. This time around, the difference cannot be more apparent – she could have ran, she wasn’t to know that they were on a different island before Sawyer told her. The very fact that Sawyer told Kate why he kept that from her made her realise just how much she meant to him. This obviously meant a lot to Kate. The cage door was left open too, yet she chose to stay – to be with the man she loved (when she realised that he loved her too) & to stay by his side all night. If she just needed a comforting body for that moment in time, why would she have stayed in his arms for that length of time?

I did read Gregg’s post. I don’t think Gregg was putting a spin on anything, he was just keeping it vague so that people could take either meaning from it. It certainly didn’t convince me that he thought Evie necessarily meant otherwise. It is true that Evie only knows as much about her character’s next exploits only when she gets the scripts. We all know that things don’t remain static on this programme. Knowing Kate’s character as we do, we can be sure that it won’t be a romance full of roses (unless you count some of the thorns :laugh: ) - most relationships are like that in RL too. The thorns can always be removed too.

Gregg also said this in response to another post:


If I understand your post correctly, you think that Kate and Sawyer's relationship is based only on sex. I think it's much more than that. When Damon said that Kate was drawn to Sawyer, I think he was referring to their emotional natures. They are very similar types of people and probably understand each other on a deeper level than even they would want to acknowledge. Of course both of them are very attractive people, but their attraction to each other is far deeper than that.

I don't think Carlton and Damon are trying to say that Jack and Kate are the only romantic couple on the island. They obviously have a connection, but it's definitely a different dynamic between them. Who's to say which is better?I think Kate may have come to the realisation that not feeling good enough for a man is not what she needs to have a lasting relationship. I’m surprised to hear that people discuss Kate’s feelings every day with you Krystal, unless of course you’re referring to people that support your own preferred ship of course – apologies, that would make sense! I find that offline, I generally have to ask Lost fans I know what they think about Kate’s choice – the resounding answer is always along the lines of “well, she has more chemistry with Sawyer” – but further than this, I find that people don’t care who she has chosen!

Apologies for writing so much about Kate’s choice here for those of you that don’t like discussing ships. However, I think it could be agreed that this triangle or any pairing Kate ends up in, does affect her character. Obviously I like Kate’s choice, but I wouldn’t be giving up on her unique character if she chose Jack too, even if I think she would be making a mistake and not learning from her previous experiences in life.

Yes yes and YES...THANK YOU.

And here is my shameless plug link to my new Avi gallery...:biggrin:..for the Kate freaks in you!

Avi's of Austen!! (http://www.thefuselage.com/Gallery/browseimages.php?do=member&catid=member&imageuser=29008)

Liked the "who gets poisoned next?" lol

Kate is still really cool.

Hey did you guys notice that Kate's teeth are no longer pearly white, like they were in season one? They're more like a bone/off-white color now. A little shot of realism TPTB have instilled into the show. How about Alix's teeth?, she could probably do with a year of braces don't you think?
"Gingivitis For Everyone!!!"

Hey did you guys notice that Kate's teeth are no longer pearly white, like they were in season one? They're more like a bone/off-white color now.

Lol so her teeth are allowed to get stained and brown, but she can't have any armpit or leg hair and the hair on her head never gets that tangled. very realistic :rolleyes:

Lol so her teeth are allowed to get stained and brown, but she can't have any armpit or leg hair and the hair on her head never gets that tangled. very realistic :rolleyes:

Priorities Pen, priorities. Beautififul hair is always a priority on any TV show. Yellow teeth, well the actress can still smile with her mouth shut, but the hair...you can't hide that.
Kate walking about perpetually wearing a Atlanta Braves Baseball cap....Ha!!
Still, she might look sexy wearing an Indiana Jones Fedora.

Lol so her teeth are allowed to get stained and brown, but she can't have any armpit or leg hair and the hair on her head never gets that tangled. very realistic :rolleyes:

Hey, are you forgetting Rousseau? Give Kate another year or so on the island. Hell, in another two years all the losties (except Locke ;) ) will be looking like a bunch of Rastafarians. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Remember Tom Hanks in Cast Away?

Oh, please, they've got knives, scissors... and I bet they have shaving cream, Tom Hanks... he only had Willson!

Priorities Pen, priorities. Beautififul hair is always a priority on any TV show. Yellow teeth, well the actress can still smile with her mouth shut, but the hair...you can't hide that.
Kate walking about perpetually wearing a Atlanta Braves Baseball cap....Ha!!
Still, she might look sexy wearing an Indiana Jones Fedora.

That's interesting, I'd find someone with brown stained teeth less attractive then someone with tangled hair. You don't have to kiss their hair.

Hey, are you forgetting Rousseau? Give Kate another year or so on the island.

Lol this could be the ultimate clue that time moves more slowly on the island, if I was on the island with no hairbrush I would be mistaken for a Rastafarian in a week or two! :D

Hell, in another two years all the losties (except Locke ;) ) will be looking like a bunch of Rastafarians. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


Well if the island healed Locke so he can walk, it could very well be healing his baldness at this very moment! I'm sure that's what Locke is hoping for ;)

Well if the island healed Locke so he can walk, it could very well be healing his baldness at this very moment! I'm sure that's what Locke is hoping for ;)
Better than The Hair Club for Men or Rogaine anyday. Its the mangoes Pen.

Getting back on topic: I'm looking forward to the return of Take Charge, Methodical, Gun-Slinging Tough Gal' Kate. She's been sorely missed.

I didn't understand Kate in last night's episode (Stranger in a Strange Land). After all Jack went through to get her and Sawyer out of Ben's clutches, including making her promise not to come back for him, she's not even rowed back to the island before she wants to go back to rescue Jack. Mind you, Kate and Sawyer have no guns to fight the others with. Heat of the moment? I'd think Kate would have enough common sense to figure out that the best course was to return to camp, plan and strategize with Sayid & Locke and then return fully rested and armed for combat. Little disappointed with the writers/Kate as a character for that.

Kate is beginning to disgust me. I hate the way the writers have her set up as some kind of prize between Jack and Sawyer. And I especially hate her wishy-washy attitude in regard to the two men. She is beginning to seem like a second-rate tease.

Take Charge, Methodical, Gun-Slinging Tough Gal' Kate. She's been sorely missed.

I didn't know that she had actually existed. I thought it was simply an act on her part.

Lol so her teeth are allowed to get stained and brown, but she can't have any armpit or leg hair and the hair on her head never gets that tangled. very realistic :rolleyes:


Dear God the things we do talk about !!!! ROFL.

That's interesting, I'd find someone with brown stained teeth less attractive then someone with tangled hair. You don't have to kiss their hair.







Well if the island healed Locke so he can walk, it could very well be healing his baldness at this very moment! I'm sure that's what Locke is hoping for ;)



I'd rather have some tangled hair anyday, I agree with you.
Oh Please Island I beg of you, don't cure Locke's baldness!!! I love the bald head, not so keen on the look he sports in some flashbacks with hair!!!
100%
Kate is beginning to disgust me. I hate the way the writers have her set up as some kind of prize between Jack and Sawyer. And I especially hate her wishy-washy attitude in regard to the two men. She is beginning to seem like a second-rate tease.




I don't feel the same way, I feel maybe she shouldn't have slept with Sawyer if her feelings were still torn between Jack and him, but that's about it.

I think she loves both...just not in a LOVE both way...I think she admires Jack..he was the first person she connected with on the island...but she loves loves Sawyer.

This whole thing reminds me of the Luke, Han, Leia thing...

As I recall..Leia only kissed Luke once too.

GAWD. What if Jack is her brother? They both had run around parents.

I admire the fact that Kate is off to go and rescue Jack. I love the jungle adventures.

Appearantly, I may not vote. But for the record, the whole "I can't decide who I'm into" thing has gotten on my last nerve. I LOVED Kate in the first half of season 1... back when the character seemed to have a brain.

As for me, I would say that I love Kate in season 3 more than ever. In S1 I think I used to love J&K as a couple, not Kate herself, but somewhere between S2 and S3 I began to really love her.

I still like her! I just hope she gets a good flashback episode tomorrow. Her last ones have been kind of forgettable.

I'm gonna like Kate a lot once she starts smacking the heck out of Juliet. :biggrin:

I'm gonna like Kate a lot once she starts smacking the heck out of Juliet. :biggrin:

Nothing like a good cat fight. Hoping to see some "Jerry Springer Show" action.

I must say I'm really not looking foward to another Kate episode this week. I've not really liked any of her centric eps and 'I Do' was the worst ep ever for me.

Seriously what has happened to Kate in S3? I really thought she was cool and interesting in S1. But almost everything she has done in S3 has annoyed the hell out of me. She has (pity?) sex with Sawyer even though she only says she loves him to protect him from Pickett. Then she dumps Sawyer at the beach without even bothering to say goodbye and goes off to rescue Jack - even though she promised Jack not to come back for him. And what has Kates "rescue" achieved? Two people have been killed, Sayid has been shot and beaten, the Dharma communications station has been blown up, Jack and Juliets ride home has been blown up...

Gee Kate what a great way of repaying Jack for his sacrifice. I know Locke is to blame for some of these incidents, but Kate really has done a lot to screw things up for Jack and she is being very fickle with Sawyer. I wish they would put Kate on the backburner because she is very infuriating at the moment and it seems like it is only going to get worse...

Next week we have Kate beating up Juliet in a jealous rage over Jack. And in ep17 we have Kate running back to Sawyer after seeing Jack/Juliet together (pukes).

thats all Kate's characterd does anymore, clings onto Jack or Sawyer.

Call me a wild optemist, but I'm clinging to the hope that the TPTB wake up and smell the Quadrangle-Hate before it's too late and Kate really has lost every last bit of plot beyond Jack vs. Sawyer. Because personally, I still like her--enough to be very sad that she might be reduced to an emotional fool JUST for the sake of draaaaaaaging out this ONE sub-plot that doesn't even have anything to do with why I started watching the show in the first place!!!

So I have my fingers crossed and hopes up that by the time we all sit down to watch S4, the tri/quad/whatever-angle won't even be an issue anymore and I can once again watch Kate track stuff, hang with Sun, maybe shoot a few Others . . . all without flailing or swooning over any particular man. I have seen enough flailing, swoony women on my TV thank you. Too many. And if a character as strong as Kate joins their ranks for good, it will be a sad day for women on TV, and the integrity of Lost, which I have always regarded as being above such Soap-Opera methods.

I have never liked Kate . . . even as far back as S1. The episode that revealed the bank robbery told me what kind of person she truly was.

Of course I still like Kate! Strong, take charge Kate is certainly more fun than weak, crying Kate, but I really think the whole J/K/S triangle is crucial to her story. Flashback Kate ran away from everything, but now she can't. She can only go as far as a single adventure will take her and then she has to face the two people she cares most for: Jack and Sawyer. In other words, Kate is growing -- learning, little by little to face her feelings and problems instead of running from them.

There have been some significant moments for Kate this season: being caged up (exactly what she would have faced if the marshal had brought her in), sleeping with Sawyer (giving in to the emotions she'd been keeping in check), having Jack tell her to RUN (oh the irony!). And once she did run again, she tried to keep on running -- away from Sawyer, to Jack. But that hasn't quite worked out, so she's got to face Sawyer again and/or chase after Jack. Either way, it's a change for Kate.

And we still have plenty more to learn about our heroine, too. Why did she really kill Wayne (I think there's more to the story)? Why was the marshal so obsessed with her (he seemed very personally if not emotionally involved with her somehow)? What was she doing in Australia?

I'll admit I have a soft spot for Kate and Jack together, but whichever way the writers ultimately take us, I'm along for the ride as long as they do the characters justice. And so far, I think they have.

I like her.
she bothered me before
but she has gotten better

I never liked Kate...
no logical reason why... just makes me grind my teeth...

I think I need to rewatch season 1 Kate again, I'm glad that Kate is going back to her action packed ways, but it doesn't feel the same for some reasons, perhpas I'm romanticising S1 Kate too much.

I think I need to rewatch season 1 Kate again, I'm glad that Kate is going back to her action packed ways, but it doesn't feel the same for some reasons, perhpas I'm romanticising S1 Kate too much.

I agree with you. Even though Kate is back to her action packed self, she is merely only a pawn in the love triangle. She goes back and forth between Jack and Sawyer whenever TPTB see fit to use her to stall the intrigue and mystery which made Lost so great back in season one. I'm getting quite tired of seeing Kate, because I know her only purpose is either to run to Jack to please the Jaters or to run to Sawyer to please the Skaters. :rolleye1:

I used to like Kate but since Lost returned from it's long hiatus I'm starting to dislike her. But I don't hate her...not yet.


Call me a wild optemist, but I'm clinging to the hope that the TPTB wake up and smell the Quadrangle-Hate before it's too late and Kate really has lost every last bit of plot beyond Jack vs. Sawyer

AMEN
I wish I shared your optimism.

she tried to keep on running -- away from Sawyer, to Jack. But that hasn't quite worked out, so she's got to face Sawyer again and/or chase after Jack. Either way, it's a change for Kate.


A soap opera-ish show is what Lost is becoming and I hate soap operas.
Kate's choice is the utter boredom.
:pissed:

I'm getting quite tired of seeing Kate, because I know her only purpose is either to run to Jack to please the Jaters or to run to Sawyer to please the Skaters.
:shesaid:
Funny thing a Jater and a skater are ITA :biggrin: . The triangle of doom is a bad plot and a character assassination for Kate.

Kate is still one of my favorite characters, I don't see how you can't like her after her last episode, especially the scene in the diner with Diane.
The only times that I start to dislike Kate is when she's all trying to live up to Jack's expectations etc when she doesn't need to.
I think Kate does still have more of a part to play than just a corner of the triangle (or, god forbid, the quadrangle) and some of these things that might be triangle related also have a deeper meaning to her character.

Well hopefully tptb will kill the quadrangle soon and then Kate can get a chance to shine again. :biggrin:

Well, yes! She's a great character and actress! Hope Kate stays around until the very end of the show!! I'm glad they chose Evangeline to be on Lost! She's such a down to earth person! It shows through her character.

The only times that I start to dislike Kate is when she's all trying to live up to Jack's expectations etc when she doesn't need to.


See I'm the opposite. I much prefer Kate when she's acting mature (whether that be trying to live up to Jack's expectations or not) than when she acts like a teenager pulling high school hijinks around Sawyer.

As far as liking her during this episode, sure I felt bad for her when her mother chose Wayne over her, but on the island, her story line revolves around the triangle and I'm tired of it. Kate either needs less screen time or be involved in something that doesn't include Jack and Sawyer. Imo, the whole triangle plot is really ruining Lost. :mad:

Now she has Sawyer she don't need Jack.

I'm sure glad that triangle is over!!

Kate Is Lost

I'm sure glad that triangle is over!!

When exactly did the triangle end, because I watched all of season three and it didn't look like it had come anywhere close to a conclusion?

Please stick to topic people...