I do not want to start a ship war, but Kate is confusing me this episode. She sleeps with Sawyer, cried and everything when he almost gets killed... but then forgets him as soon as Jack starts controlling everything. Jack told her that she could run, get away, and she only argued she wouldn't go without him (Jack). Now what ever happened to Sawyer? She just slept with him, and she's planning to just leave him??? She never even asked that Sawyer be included in this deal.

The only reason I can come up with is that she cannot hold onto a relationship. She keeps running from them. Everyone she ever loved, she ran away from. She loves Sawyer, slept with him, and now (to me, at least) it looks like she is just going to abandon him in the hands of the Others.

Now unless I missed something, does anyone else know why Kate just forgot Sawyer during that whole exchange with Jack?

I didn't get the impression that she forgot anything. She was actually looking at Sawyer when she was saying she wasn't going to leave without him (you). I think that scene was one of the many that could be misinterpreted though. Jack is telling her to run, "you have an hour headstart" Now Jack knows that they are together so you have to figure hes refering to both of them having an hour headstart. Shes yelling "I'm not leaving without you" talking to Jack but looking at Sawyer. My take on it was that she meant she wasn't leaving without THEM both. I could be wrong. However, I do agree that she seems like she may end up confused when they come back in February. She, I think, cares for both of them. I think Jack is the guy that she knows she SHOULD be with but Sawyer is the guy that she WANTS. Jacks a saver and a fixer and the guy you can always count on to fix your flat tire. Hes the kind of guy women marry. Sawyer is the guy that you know you shouldn't want but do anyway cause hes fun and sexy and just a little on the a**hole side! Anyway, I see why you saw it that way but I don't think thats what they had meant for us to get from that scene.

I do not want to start a ship war, but Kate is confusing me this episode. She sleeps with Sawyer, cried and everything when he almost gets killed... but then forgets him as soon as Jack starts controlling everything. Jack told her that she could run, get away, and she only argued she wouldn't go without him (Jack). Now what ever happened to Sawyer? She just slept with him, and she's planning to just leave him??? She never even asked that Sawyer be included in this deal.

The only reason I can come up with is that she cannot hold onto a relationship. She keeps running from them. Everyone she ever loved, she ran away from. She loves Sawyer, slept with him, and now (to me, at least) it looks like she is just going to abandon him in the hands of the Others.

Now unless I missed something, does anyone else know why Kate just forgot Sawyer during that whole exchange with Jack?


Umm...she wasn't planning to leave Sawyer. I don't know where that's coming from. Jack was giving them a way out...and she didn't just want to leave him behind. That makes perfect sense. She and Jack are very connected...and they're good friends. Even if she doesn't want to be romantically involved with him yet...that doesn't mean she's cool with letting him sacrifice himself for her.

If Kate runs...Sawyer's coming with her. There was no mention of leaving him behind. Jack was talking to Kate and not Sawyer because he wanted her to know that he was doing this for HER. But that didn't mean he would leave Sawyer to die. Jack isn't like that at all.

The point is that Jack is saying he'll let Ben die...unless Kate and Sawyer get away first and he makes sure they're safe. If that weren' the case...Pickett would have shot Sawyer anyway. Because it wasn't part of the deal.

She didn't forget about Sawyer she was staring right at him. She knows if she doesn't take Jack's opening and run away with Sawyer...they'll shoot him. But that doesn't mean that it's easy to let her friend sacrifice himself...possibly get hurt....to save her.

Plus we see Sawyer and Kate running off together in the preview

Just because she doesn't want to leave the island without jack doesn't mean she loves him and not sawyer.

Just because she doesn't want to leave the island without jack doesn't mean she loves him and not sawyer.

I didn't say she doesn't love Sawyer, she does. She just has a habit of running from the people she loves.

And I still don't see Jack including Sawyer in his plans. For some reason, I only saw him talking to Kate. For one, Jack really had no idea that Kate was with Sawyer at that time. He saw them together, yes, but then he went into surgery... the next morning. He had no idea if Kate was seperate from Sawyer then, or even if they were really going to kill Sawyer (which I highly doubt, they haven't even hurt a bunny...). So I still think that he was just trying to tell KATE, and only Kate, to go. And just because she was staring at Sawyer the entire time doesn't mean she didn't mean to leave him.

I didn't say she doesn't love Sawyer, she does. She just has a habit of running from the people she loves.

And I still don't see Jack including Sawyer in his plans. For some reason, I only saw him talking to Kate. For one, Jack really had no idea that Kate was with Sawyer at that time. He saw them together, yes, but then he went into surgery... the next morning. He had no idea if Kate was seperate from Sawyer then, or even if they were really going to kill Sawyer (which I highly doubt, they haven't even hurt a bunny...). So I still think that he was just trying to tell KATE, and only Kate, to go. And just because she was staring at Sawyer the entire time doesn't mean she didn't mean to leave him.


You're totally right, it doesn't mean she intended to leave with him. It also doesn't mean she intended to leave him behind though. I think without a direct response from one of the writers you'll never know for sure what it meant. However, I think the majority of people got the impression that she had no intentions of leaving either of them. And that Jack in no way meant for it to be just Kate that escaped. He knew they were together in the cage because he saw them. He knew they were both in cages and working together because Kate told him. However much animosity there may be between Jack and Sawyer he wouldn't, I don't think, knowingly and blatantly devise a plan where escape is possible and not include Sawyer. But ya know, different impressions. :rolleyes:

As for the, not really going to kill Sawyer....did you see the episode where Pickett beat him bloody for something Sawyer didn't even do?! :eek2:
Ben didn't hurt the bunny...Pickett on the other hand probably has a really soft lucky rabbits foot right about now!

I think she loves both of them. (who wouldn't ?) Right now she's bonding more with Sawyer because they're suffering their hardship/captivity together. That doesn't mean her feelings for Jack just go away. She still cares for him and doesn't want to leave him behind. She's planning on taking Sawyer with her, she's just not verbalizing it at the moment.

2 cents:

kate has feelings for both men, romantic and friendship and she is confused

they told kate they were going to kill sawyer, so she gave into her feelings for him because she wanted to give him back something and she wanted to say goodbye and she wanted to have that experience and she probably thought since he was dying, she wouldn't really have to face anything beyond that - but it doesn't point to her leaving him behind
In an interview it was stated that the "choice'" kate makes is temporary

they went to great lengths to show us the romance and connection between jack and kate right before the sawyer and kate love scene - that felt very purposeful

they left whether she would bring sawyer along ambiguous on purpose, but then showed in the preview that she did, I think we were just meant to infer that Kate wasn't going to leave jack behind - allow him to sacrifice himself for her, remember that she didn't want sawyer to sacrifice himself for her either, only moments before - she doesn't want to hurt anyone else, let anyone else she cares for get hurt because of her and she doesn't want to lose anyone else she cares for (and they showed us why in her flashback)

there was definitely some kind of code speak going on between jack and kate both in the aquarium and on the walkies - there is a lot they are not showing us that when they do, will help make sense of all of this (i hope) I think it harkens back to what they didn't show us between revealing they knew Michael had betrayed them and getting caught and that odd little nod between jack and kate befoe they got the bags over the head end of last season - but also what they haven't shown us the others have been doing to kate off camera

jack doesn't know that they may not be able to get off the island they are on, but if she is able to tell him and he is quick on his feet, he will get the others to tell him where an escape vehicle is (sub or boat, or tunnel) for she and sawyer but that immediately makes me more afraid for jack for some reason

all the way around, I think we cannot come to legitimate conclusions without more information - though speculation is very fun!!

picture me banging a big ol' drum yelling, more than meets the eye!!!!!

I do not want to start a ship war, but Kate is confusing me this episode. She sleeps with Sawyer, cried and everything when he almost gets killed... but then forgets him as soon as Jack starts controlling everything. Jack told her that she could run, get away, and she only argued she wouldn't go without him (Jack). Now what ever happened to Sawyer? She just slept with him, and she's planning to just leave him??? She never even asked that Sawyer be included in this deal.

The only reason I can come up with is that she cannot hold onto a relationship. She keeps running from them. Everyone she ever loved, she ran away from. She loves Sawyer, slept with him, and now (to me, at least) it looks like she is just going to abandon him in the hands of the Others.

Now unless I missed something, does anyone else know why Kate just forgot Sawyer during that whole exchange with Jack?


i simply think kate is in love with jack and she slept with sawyer cause the others threatened her (we didnt see what happened between the beach lunch and the cage).

as you say, she run from any relationship, but in the pilot, where she is sewing jack, she said: "if i had been you, i would have run"
and jack answered: "now, you're not running".
kate always runs, except when she is with jack... no?

I'm still thinking Kate's erratic behavior stems back to breakfast on the beach with Ben. He told her it was going to a be difficult two weeks I 'm still getting the feeling that Kate has been doing what she was told to do by Ben and not always what her choice woud be. I have to wonder why the concverstion with Ben which had to be much more detailed than we saw is never mentioned to Sawyer unless like him she's toldd not to tell.

i simply think kate is in love with jack and she slept with sawyer cause the others threatened her (we didnt see what happened between the beach lunch and the cage).

as you say, she run from any relationship, but in the pilot, where she is sewing jack, she said: "if i had been you, i would have run"
and jack answered: "now, you're not running".
kate always runs, except when she is with jack... no?

We have absolutely no onscreen evidence that Kate slept with Sawyer for any reason other than that she wanted to.

She had been free to run since Every Man for Himself and had refused to run from Sawyer since then. Her not being able to leave Sawyer is a given. She had just offered to die for him, ferchripesake. She was including Jack at that point, that's all.

If you go to the unedited version of this scene that's up on ABC (which I tend to think will be the version they replay in Feb.) it's a lot clearer that there was never any question of leaving Sawyer. The only reason I can think of to leave it the way they did was to provoke ship warfare during the hiatus. And they've succeeded. Nasty trick, and entirely unnecessary IMO.

I do not want to start a ship war, but Kate is confusing me this episode. She sleeps with Sawyer, cried and everything when he almost gets killed... but then forgets him as soon as Jack starts controlling everything. Jack told her that she could run, get away, and she only argued she wouldn't go without him (Jack). Now what ever happened to Sawyer? She just slept with him, and she's planning to just leave him??? She never even asked that Sawyer be included in this deal.

The only reason I can come up with is that she cannot hold onto a relationship. She keeps running from them. Everyone she ever loved, she ran away from. She loves Sawyer, slept with him, and now (to me, at least) it looks like she is just going to abandon him in the hands of the Others.

Now unless I missed something, does anyone else know why Kate just forgot Sawyer during that whole exchange with Jack?

Yes, she slept with Sawyer, but sex doesn't = love so whether or not she's in love with Sawyer is up for debate since she wouldn't say the words to him. I'm not sure Kate understands what it means to be in love with someone or if she's wired to ever truly commit to someone, but she appears to be trying to figure it out. She didn't forget about Sawyer, she was looking right at him and would anyone really have expected Kate to say, "Okay, see ya Jack!" Of course she doesn't want to just leave him behind, he's her friend, they've grown very close, she cares about him. I don't think she suddenly switched brains at the sound of his voice and decided "aw shucks, I'm in love with Jack, I can't leave him". There doesn't appear to be any more going on there than Kate not wanting to abandon her friend.

I thought that everyone was genrally aware of the fact that there was a line cut from that exchange at the end of the episode, jack says "take the walkie talkie, take sawyer and run." Jack is leting go of kate, what he was unable to do with his ex wife. The extent of his feelings for her is at the end of the day up to speculation, but I think few people would deny he c\ares for her deeply. He saw that she had slept with sawyer, and considering he had head sawyer admit he loved kate in WKD plus the exchanges between them prior to this jack is obviously letting her go, wanting her to be happy, which shows incredile character growth for his character.

Duffy is right when she said that the writers left the line out to spark shipper wars. I'm 99.99% certain thats one of the reason they didn't have kate repeat her declaration of love to sawyer. Like the writers want everyone going, "right thats it, debate over she chose sawyer end of story. They know what these forums are like, and know that any ship will pick up in the slightest little thing to add weight to their ship. So whilst making the genral audience and the media assume and elieve that kate picked sawyer, end of story, they still have millions of fans all over the world fighting online a bout it because of the state of our obsession lol!

I don't think it's millions of shippers debating it ravenmoon. Maybe a few hundred all told. This site has only 12,900 active members, a tiny minority of which are shippers. If you visit a lot of boards you see a lot of the same people. Shippers are the tiniest of minorities in the overall fandom, but probably the loudest. :)

I agree, there was very little controversy (or even noticing) of that line in the media or general public. Kate's choice was about as straightforward and clearcut as can be. But I am sure the writers threw that cut in there (like Kate's passionate but nonverbal declaration) to stir up shipper insanity. It seems like just the kind of "joke" they enjoy. And boy, did they ever get the response they were looking for, though it seems finally to be dying down.

I thought that everyone was genrally aware of the fact that there was a line cut from that exchange at the end of the episode, jack says "take the walkie talkie, take sawyer and run." Jack is leting go of kate, what he was unable to do with his ex wife.


Can a person let go of something he never had? Jack isn't even sure how he feels about Kate and probably not nearly as devastated over seeing her with Sawyer as Benry would've liked. I think Jack was just cleaning up the mess he made. He feels responsible for what is happening to Kate and Sawyer and is seizing the opportunity to do right by them. I think they cut the Sawyer part out of the line simply because Jack wouldn't say that any more than when he woke up he'd be yelling "Kate and Sawyer!" instead of just "Kate!"

I hope you are right about Jack accepting that Kate prefers Sawyer over him and that he's ready to move past it.

I thought that everyone was genrally aware of the fact that there was a line cut from that exchange at the end of the episode, jack says "take the walkie talkie, take sawyer and run." Jack is leting go of kate, what he was unable to do with his ex wife.

The line was cut because it was too clunky. The writers realized that the general audience is smart enough to know that Jack wants to save both Kate AND Sawyer. Jack's the good guy, always trying to save everyone else, never excluding anyone. He's saved Sawyer's life several times before, why stop now? Maybe the writers should have made the line "Take the walkie, take Sawyer, run into the jungle, be sure to turn the walkie off for now so that the battery doesn't die, when you get safe, remember that the walkie will work best out in the open, so get to a beach or something and say hi to everyone at the beach when you see them". But they didn't because it's too obvious, just as taking Sawyer is too obvious.

Including his name hardly means that Jack is letting go of Kate. I don't know how people come up with that type of logic. A complicated selfless act to save his friends somehow gets twisted into a shipperific acceptance that he is letting go? Really? That makes his actions laughable if you really believe it.

i simply think kate is in love with jack and she slept with sawyer cause the others threatened her (we didnt see what happened between the beach lunch and the cage).

as you say, she run from any relationship, but in the pilot, where she is sewing jack, she said: "if i had been you, i would have run"
and jack answered: "now, you're not running".
kate always runs, except when she is with jack... no?

Bingo. I don't think that Kate is intending to leave Sawyer behind. I think she cares about him deeply and wouldn't ever just leave him to die. However, it is interesting that she hesitates to run at all when Sawyer's life is so vulnerable. He's still got a gun to him, and Kate has a chance to save him, but she hesitates...and why does she hesitate? Jack. So, what does this episode accomplish? Kate has sex with Sawyer, but controversy surrounds it b/c of the circumstances and b/c she won't say she loves him, and then Kate refuses to run without Jack. So, what was her choice? No one can say for sure, but I will say this. In Kate's fb, we see her choose to run from Kevin, but on the island, we see her choose to not run from Jack. That says something to me about Kate's character, but I guess we'll all just have to wait till Feb. to really find out what is going on.

We have absolutely no onscreen evidence that Kate slept with Sawyer for any reason other than that she wanted to.

Except that the onscreen evidence makes half of the audience (and I'm not talking about a Jater half, I'm talking a general audience) believe that it was pity sex, or at the very least, a confused impetuous action. And it also means that you probably conveniently forget that there is a lot more going on here than was shown onscreen - Kate's breakfast with Ben being the main one. Maybe the writers will never show us that scene, but then they'll be leaving out the explanation of why Kate came to the cage after breakfast completely changed, completely broken and scared out of her wits, with evidence (cut wrists) of being physically traumatized as well.

You're right Mojave. It was an obvious insinuation that he meant to save both, just as it was an even more obvious insinuation that Kate meant she wouldn't leave either one.

It appears that absolutely no one but online shippers took any notice of it at all, which is the reason for connecting it to shippers. That and the nonverbal "I love you" have been the only fuel for the shipper wars that have raged for the last three weeks, so it's not crazy to see them as bait thrown to the online shippers by the mischievous writers. But you're probably right that even that is giving far more power to the tiny group of online shippers than they will ever actually possess.

Except that the onscreen evidence makes half of the audience (and I'm not talking about a Jater half, I'm talking a general audience) believe that it was pity sex, or at the very least, a confused impetuous action.

Can you please stop speaking for eight and half million people, Mojave? That would be HALF of the audience. You have absolutely no idea what these people think. And you can't use the infinitesimal percentage of online shippers who post at the Fuse as a barometer. Let's speak for ourselves and leave it at that.

You're right Mojave. It was an obvious insinuation that he meant to save both, just as it was an even more obvious insinuation that Kate meant she wouldn't leave either one.

I'm not sure if you're including me in a group that believe Kate was just going to leave Sawyer behind, but thought I'd comment just in case - yes, it was also obvious that Kate wasn't going to leave Sawyer behind.

Can you please stop speaking for eight and half million people, Mojave? That would be HALF of the audience. You have absolutely no idea what these people think. And you can't use the infinitesimal percentage of online shippers who post at the Fuse as a barometer. Let's speak for ourselves and leave it at that.

I'm not using the Fuse only, but other boards, comments, my friends, co-workers, etc. I Do was a good episode, filled with ambiguity and it got a lot of people talking. Most of the people I hand out with are big Lost fans. 95% of them are non-shippers, 50% of them think the way I told you they did. You're right, that doesn't represent 8.5 million viewers just as you don't represent 17.0 million when you say how obvious and undeniable certain things are and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong... or do you?

I don't represent anyone but myself, Mojave. And I know a lot of Lost fans also, 100% of whom are nonshippers. I can't even draw them into a conversation about the romances on Lost, because they get irritated and say things like "This is Lost, not Gilmore Girls!". Everyone just assumes Kate is with Sawyer. I don't know if they like it or don't like it. Most people I know take the show at face value and love it like mad, aren't angry about a thing.

Does that represent anything? I don't know. I just know that online fans complain constantly and offline they just enjoy the show. We here on the Fuse represent about .05% of American fans. Only a tiny group of us - a vocal one - has any opinion whatsoever about the romances. So maybe .005% of American fans have an opinion on this, being generous. I really don't think it's of any concern to the writers or needs to be.

I don't represent anyone but myself, Mojave. And I know a lot of Lost fans also, 100% of whom are nonshippers.

I'd say nearly 100% of my friends, including me, think Kate is with Sawyer. My point in most of my posts on these boards dealing with shipper issues is not questioning whether Kate is with Sawyer, but the circumstances and situations that lead this to be. In other words, the ambiguity of "why".

I just want to state for the record, because people complain to me about this all the time, that when I say "Jack and Kate and Sawyer, etc did this", I obviously mean that the WRITERS WROTE and the ACTORS ACTED it that way. Similarly, when I quote percentages, clearly I do not know what the world is thinking, I am merely going on statistics based on my own group of friends. The reason I leave out "THE WRITERS WROTE" and "OF MY FRIENDS" is because it would get tedious really quickly. :)

I thought that everyone was genrally aware of the fact that there was a line cut from that exchange at the end of the episode, jack says "take the walkie talkie, take sawyer and run." Jack is leting go of kate, what he was unable to do with his ex wife. The extent of his feelings for her is at the end of the day up to speculation, but I think few people would deny he c\ares for her deeply. He saw that she had slept with sawyer, and considering he had head sawyer admit he loved kate in WKD plus the exchanges between them prior to this jack is obviously letting her go, wanting her to be happy, which shows incredile character growth for his character.
ITA. The entire point of Jack's flashback this mini-season was to show us his past obsessive nature with Sarah, even to the point of stalking her, because he couldn't accept the fact that she had chosen another man and was leaving him because of it. In the end, Island time, Jack has finally reached a place where he can "let it go". He realized what was truly important...that Sarah was happy. That was mirrored in his end talk with Kate. He had seen for himself that Kate was lying curled naked in Sawyer's arms, and that told him all he needed to know...that Kate's connection to and feelings for Sawyer have at last been realized.

Duffy is right when she said that the writers left the line out to spark shipper wars.
Oh, I'd bet $$ that we'll hear Jack and Kate's full conversation when the show resumes in Feb. Kate screamed "No, I CAN'T!", Jack replied "Kate, dammit, RUN!" Her next line will be something like "you don't understand, I CAN'T leave, we're on another island, there's no way off!" Jack will turn to Juliet for help, she'll probably tell him to tell Kate something like "head South...there's a boat/submarine on the South dock", Jack will impart that to Kate, telling her "take the walkie, take Sawyer, and RUN."

:twocents:

I'm 99.99% certain thats one of the reason they didn't have kate repeat her declaration of love to sawyer.

Nah, I don't think so. It's really not as big of a deal to them as it is to some fans/shippers. And there was no need for them to beat the audience over the head with Kate saying "the L word" to Sawyer. He (we) had already heard it verbally, and so they simply had her confirm her words with her actions. No need for more words there. In addition, we had heard Kate say "I love you" umpteen times to her husband throughout the episode, but those words were meaningless, because she couldn't back them up with her actions. Also in addition, to have Kate say it again would have taken a little bit away from Sawyer saying it for the first time.

Also, remember that the episode was written by Damon & Carlton...two men aren't going to turn that scene into sap, just to please the Skaters. ;) They illustrated Kate's choice, and her confirmation of it, beautifully. No words necessary. :smile:

Kate didn't want to leave Jack behind. She knew he was trying to help not only her, but Sawyer as well. She screamed "Jack, I can't leave without you!" because she didn't want him to die, and be left behind. She didn't forget about Sawyer either. She was concerned about Jack and his safety.

Can you please stop speaking for eight and half million people, Mojave? That would be HALF of the audience. You have absolutely no idea what these people think. And you can't use the infinitesimal percentage of online shippers who post at the Fuse as a barometer. Let's speak for ourselves and leave it at that.



I'm not using the Fuse only, but other boards, comments, my friends, co-workers, etc. I Do was a good episode, filled with ambiguity and it got a lot of people talking. Most of the people I hand out with are big Lost fans. 95% of them are non-shippers, 50% of them think the way I told you they did. You're right, that doesn't represent 8.5 million viewers just as you don't represent 17.0 million when you say how obvious and undeniable certain things are and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong... or do you?

The broken record public service announcement rears it's head yet again...

If I receive one more RP from this thead about baiting and rude posts and this nit picky back and forth..it will be closed and points awarded.

The broken record public service announcement rears it's head yet again...

If I receive one more RP from this thead about baiting and rude posts and this nit picky back and forth..it will be closed and points awarded.

This is for the sheriff.....a thousand thank you's, sir