"Every time I look at Sawyer, every time I feel something for him, I see you, Wayne. It makes me sick."

I keep coming back to that statement and wondering what exactly she saw of Wayne in Sawyer. A physical resemblance? A mannerism? An attitude? Some thing(s) he's done? Said?

And is it necessarily a bad thing? Yes, it makes her sick, but in what context?

My son, who I love more than life, looks a great deal like his father. (from whom I have been divorced for nearly 20 years) Every now and then, my son does or says something or makes a gesture that will literally stop me in my tracks. For that split second, he almost is his father. It always sends a chill up my spine, and not in a good *oh, wasn't that spine tingly fun* kinda way. In that split second, my hatred for my ex spills over onto my son.

I believe the Wayne/Sawyer thing is surely something similar to this. Something that comes in flashes rather than something everpresent. If it were something constant and obvious, then surely the episode would have made that parallel apparent.

But that doesn't happen. Kate goes through a laundry list of reasons why she didn't do what she did, then says that she did it because she felt contaminated by him being a part of her ... then she goes on to make the I see you in him statement.

I wish we had seen more of Wayne, so we had some basis for comparison. The only connection I can make is the leering issue, but I can't really make that make sense to me. She specifically said that she didn't burn him up because of the way he looked at her. And, yes, she does seem to get annoyed when Sawyer leers at her, but it has always struck me as more of a playful annoyance than true moral outrage.

It seems to me that if that were really her Achilles heel that she would have made an effort to dress in baggier, less revealing clothes. I don't mean to say that she invited leering by the way she dressed. I just mean that I've known women who were particularly sensitive to being stared at and they all went to great lengths to not draw attention to themselves. Kate is an attractive woman, raised in the United States. She can't have been a stranger to stares from men, and since she gives every appearance of being a clever, resourceful woman as well, there is no reason to believe that she would not know how to *dress down* if male attention was unwelcome.

Also, if lusty looks from Sawyer were an everpresent concern of hers, why on earth would she have stripped down to her g-string panties and gone swimming alone with him in WTCMB? It's not rocket science to know that Sawyer, or any other red-blooded, straight man would have gotten in their peeks at that. It doesn't make sense that someone with leering issues would have done that. Particularly if they had issues with the way Sawyer, in particular, leered at them.

Then again, she was particularly vulnerable while she was in that sundress, and she seemed very aware of being looked at then. Of course that appeared to be the intent of the Others when they gave it to her to wear. If this is Kates' big issue, how do you suppose the Others were able to hit on it? Dumb luck? Or do you think they really know that much about the lostaways?

And lastly, *gets down on bended knee* I beg you, please don't drag Jack into this conversation. He is wholly unconnected to this topic and finding a way to bring him in will only muddy the water and throw the thread into a shipper war, which I would greatly appreciate not happening.

The topic is not Jate vs SKate or Jack vs Sawyer. It is Wayne vs Sawyer and what exactly of Wayne does Kate see in Sawyer and how what she sees effects her relationship with Sawyer.

Thank you

There is much much more to Kate and Sawyer relationship than meets they eye. My theory for a long time now has been that the main theme of Lost is that it is a VR Therapy program for people who have experienced trauma in their past. Each of the Losties has a background of some traumatic experience and Kate and Sawyer are no exception. Each one is a story in itself. The Kate & Sawyer stories are combined and I have a thread describing it and what is happening to them currently. The thread is Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505). I should warn you that you should keep an open mind when you read this.

My guess as to things that Sawyer and Wayne probably had in common is very similar to to yours, Sheba. I bet a lot of it is mannerisms. If I remember correctly, I believe that Wayne also had a southern accent, and southern men (esspecially those raised out in the country) are different from other men. Southern men (I hope that you don't mind sweeping generalizations) speak their minds. And they don't make apologies for who they are or how they come across. They don't care about "politcal correctness" or trying to impress other people. It's a very Scott-Irish-by-way-of the -Appalachian-Mountians mind set. People have actualy written books and articles in prominent magazines (Time, Parade, etc.) about the subject. It's the whole rebel, redneck, survival of he fittist mindset.

Anyway, it seems that Wayne and Sawyer would have these character traits in common. Ultimately though, these are just superficial traits and don't really speak to the true character, heart, and soul of either of these men. I can see how initially these things would turn Kate off, however once she begin to allow herself to dig a litttle deeper with Sawyer, I have a feeling that any comparision of these two men quickly went by the wayside.

I also believe that the mere fact that Sawyer was permitted to see the Black horse with Kate, was a big sign that they were both being let off the hook, so to speak, for any connection to Wayne and what Kate did.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Southern men (I hope that you don't mind sweeping generalizations) speak their minds. And they don't make apologies for who they are or how they come across. They don't care about "politcal correctness" or trying to impress other people. It's a very Scott-Irish-by-way-of the -Appalachian-Mountians mind set.

...Ultimately though, these are just superficial traits and don't really speak to the true character, heart, and soul of either of these men.

I'm no expert in Southern Men, but if it's Wayne we're talking about, I think his true character was defined by being an alcoholic jerk who leered rather incestuously at his daughter and beat. his. wife. I'm not a big fan of "political corectness" myself, but if knocking your wife about out of "love" is a sign of a rebel and a man who speaks his mind... I think I'll pass and call the cops. I don't think Wayne being an abusive husband and father has anything to do with him being Southern, it has everything to do with him being an ***hole.

I'm no expert in Southern Men, but if it's Wayne we're talking about, I think his true character was defined by being an alcoholic jerk who leered rather incestuously at his daughter and beat. his. wife. I'm not a big fan of "political corectness" myself, but if knocking your wife about out of "love" is a sign of a rebel and a man who speaks his mind... I think I'll pass and call the cops. I don't think Wayne being an abusive husband and father has anything to do with him being Southern, it has everything to do with him being an ***hole.


I didn't say anything about Wayne being abusive. I don't think that is what Kate was referring to when she said that Sawyer reminded her of Wayne. Sawyer never showed any sign of being abusive. He does like to leer at her, but he isn't the only man on the island that does. He just happens to be the only one who doesn't try to hide it or pretend that he isn't doing it.

I didn't think that this thread only pretained to Wayne being an abusive drunk. I thought that we were just discussing what possible similarities that he and Sawyer might have that would make Sawyer remind her of Wayne. Wayne clearly had a lot of bad qualities (enough for Kate to want to kill him), but that doesn't mean that those were his only qualities. And anything that would remind Kate of Wayne, would probably remind her as much of the bad as it does of anything else. KWIM?

I'm sorry if I didn't spell this out clearly enough for you in my first post.:cool:

I didn't say anything about Wayne being abusive. I don't think that is what Kate was referring to when she said that Sawyer reminded her of Wayne. Sawyer never showed any sign of being abusive.

There are 109 words in my post, zero of which are "Sawyer".

I didn't think that this thread only pretained to Wayne being an abusive drunk.

Neither did I. But since Wayne is a "southern man" who's not into PC stuff and you included both Sawyer and Wayne in your post, I just thought I should point out that there's a difference between speaking your mind and beating your wife.

Wayne clearly had a lot of bad qualities (enough for Kate to want to kill him), but that doesn't mean that those were his only qualities. And anything that would remind Kate of Wayne, would probably remind her as much of the bad as it does of anything else.

Hey, I agree. Maybe Wayne was a kicka** pictionary player. That's not his defining trait of character, imo, and being an abusive drunk does trump it, but I get your point.

I'm sorry if I didn't spell this out clearly enough for you in my first post.:cool:

No problem. Some of us are just slow like that.

There are 109 words in my post, zero of which are "Sawyer".

So what was the purpose of the post, since the topic is seeing Wayne in Sawyer?

If you are not saying that you see those "Wayne" traits in Sawyer, then why bring them up?

Also, if lusty looks from Sawyer were an everpresent concern of hers, why on earth would she have stripped down to her g-string panties and gone swimming alone with him in WTCMB? It's not rocket science to know that Sawyer, or any other red-blooded, straight man would have gotten in their peeks at that. It doesn't make sense that someone with leering issues would have done that. Particularly if they had issues with the way Sawyer, in particular, leered at them.

Then again, she was particularly vulnerable while she was in that sundress, and she seemed very aware of being looked at then. Of course that appeared to be the intent of the Others when they gave it to her to wear. If this is Kates' big issue, how do you suppose the Others were able to hit on it? Dumb luck? Or do you think they really know that much about the lostaways?




I do not think Kate has issues with her ways of dress. I simply think she does not care. She's very laid back and natural.
I would feel strange if I was asked to wear a little 16 year olds cocktail dress on purpose, too. Creepizzle~:fear3:

I also click back to the waterfall swimming scene...in my opinion Kate WAS wary about Sawyer staring at her. But I don't think she cared because she really wanted to swim and she wasn't going to waste her clothes if she had to walk around in them all day.

At that point in the show I think they were semi-friends. They had gotten over the letter, but didn't know anything about each other yet. I think she felt comfortable enough to know he wasn't going to hurt her or touch her. I also don't think she was remembering Wayne quite so vividly yet.

Sawyer is always (was always) hitting on Kate. When Kate actually started to like him back I think it was strange for her. I definitely see a few similarities:

1. If you notice, Wayne is also very tall and lanky like Sawyer. Think when she's helping Wayne to bed.
2. The thick southern accent
3. The **comments** they make to Kate
4. Similar attitudes

If Kate started to like Sawyer, it means she'd have to set aside her reminders of Wayne in order to fall for him.
Because when Sawyer calls her beautiful, when Sawyer touches her arm, when Sawyer looks at her in *that way*, its very OK. But not for Wayne. So Kate's senses must be confused.

I like this thread (: I have thought about this much in the past. I also love What Kate Did.

...But since Wayne is a "southern man" who's not into PC stuff and you included both Sawyer and Wayne in your post, I just thought I should point out that there's a difference between speaking your mind and beating your wife.



Claudia815, I think that you just misunderstood the point of my post. Yes, Wayne was an abusive drunk. I think that we can all agree on that. But, I was not, in any way, attibuting THOSE qualities to my defination of a "Southern Man". There are drunk, abusive men in every area of our country, as well as every part of the world. I don't think that anyone is confused about there being a big difference between speaking your mind and beating your wife. That's pretty much a given, and it has nothing to do with being from the south. It's apples and oranges.

Sheba's question was about which qualities Sawyer and Wayne share. And since I seem to think that both of these characters are originally from the south, I simply tried to point out how this could effectively provide similarities in both their mannarisms as well as their mindset (which could possibly trigger a memory in Kate). Again, their southern orgins have no effect on whether or not one of them is an abusive drunk. That is a different issue altogether. I was only trying to tie together the characteristics which I think that both Wayne and Sawyer might have shared.
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So what was the purpose of the post, since the topic is seeing Wayne in Sawyer?

If you are not saying that you see those "Wayne" traits in Sawyer, then why bring them up?



Yeah, I'm confused about that too. I'm not really sure what Claudia815 was getting at.

So what was the purpose of the post, since the topic is seeing Wayne in Sawyer?

If you are not saying that you see those "Wayne" traits in Sawyer, then why bring them up?

...But since Wayne is a "southern man" who's not into PC stuff and you included both Sawyer and Wayne in your post, I just thought I should point out that there's a difference between speaking your mind and beating your wife.



Claudia815, I think that you just misunderstood the point of my post. Yes, Wayne was an abusive drunk. I think that we can all agree on that. But, I was not, in any way, attibuting THOSE qualities to my defination of a "Southern Man". There are drunk, abusive men in every area of our country, as well as every part of the world. I don't think that anyone is confused about there being a big difference between speaking your mind and beating your wife. That's pretty much a given, and it has nothing to do with being from the south. It's apples and oranges.

Sheba's question was about which qualities Sawyer and Wayne share. And since I seem to think that both of these characters are originally from the south, I simply tried to point out how this could effectively provide similarities in both their mannarisms as well as their mindset (which could possibly trigger a memory in Kate). Again, their southern orgins have no effect on whether or not one of them is an abusive drunk. That is a different issue altogether. I was only trying to tie together the characteristics which I think that both Wayne and Sawyer might have shared.
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Yeah, I'm confused about that too. I'm not really sure what Claudia815 was getting at.
I would have thought it was obvious that she was bringing up the traits that WAYNE had shown, and discussed in answer to you talking about southern men, those being WAYNE and SAWYER. All view points and the point was quite clear.

I think this is one of those issues that fans make far more of than the writers ever intended. If everyone stops to think, this issue was raised and resolved in a single episode. I believe it was only a catalyst for Kate to accept that she had feelings for Sawyer, which was the basic point of that episode, What Kate Did.

What about Sawyer reminded Kate of Wayne? I doubt it was anything more than the only trait they shared - redneckedness. It wasn't Sawyer's shady nature, since Wayne seemed to be a lawabiding run of the mill type of working class male who confines most of his tyranny and abuse to his own home. It wasn't that Sawyer showed a sexual interest in her. We've seen that Kate not only is used to that from men, but is very comfortable using it to manipulate them. It wasn't that Sawyer ever tried to harm Kate or that she was ever afraid of him. It was nothing real or solid, just their shared rednecked way of behaving. It was important to that episode only because Kate had identified it as the one thing standing in the way of her feelings for Sawyer, which she was feeling overwhelmed by at that point.

Whatever Kate meant in that one scene, the writers never so much as mentioned it again, so clearly it's no fundamentally important dynamic. They completely resolved it in the one scene where Kate - speaking as if to Wayne - realizes as Sawyer wakes up and behaves in his own individual, unique Sawyer way that he isn't anyone but Sawyer. She laughs, she's happy, she's relieved.

But there is a bigger clue that Kate puts Wayne to rest in that episode. That is when her horse next appears to her, it is Sawyer who sees it with her. I've heard spec that the horse represents Wayne and is a sign that she is forgiven. Others think it represents the marshall. Either way, it is some kind of symbol of redemption and I can't think of a more meaningful scene in the entire series than the two outcast criminals being the only ones to witness it. The episode ends on a peaceful note, a very happy note, with Kate stroking the horse and Sawyer looking on.

Kate hasn't mentioned Wayne,either in the present or in flashback, since that episode and I don't expect to ever have her compare him to Sawyer ever again. The issue, like the letter in Confidence Man or the boar in Outlaws, was used to further the character development of Kate and Sawyer, separately and together. The writers disposed of it, and probably expected that fans would as well.

Very well stated, Duffy.

Okay... I'll step out on this limb...

I don't think that there is that much in common with Wayne and Sawyer except how "wrong" of a catch both of them are! I don't think their "proclivities" have anything to do with each other. Wayne is a Wifebeater and Sawyer is a Conman. That's all.

Nether Wayne or Sawyer are the kinda guys you want to marry or for your daughter to marry. You want them to marry doctors, policemen, Colonels in the Military - respectable men of the community.

REMEMBER - Wayne is Kate's biological Father. He DID NOT know this - he had been lead to believe that the Colonel was Kate's Father. Watch that episode WKD carefully!!!

Kate, until only recently of that episode FB, did not know that Wayne was her biological Father either. She was lead to believe that the Colonel was her Father.

But Kate's Mother LOVED him! And she looked past all that Wayne did to her because she LOVED him!! "I've made my bed, Katherine."

But Kate was furious with her Mother for wanting to live that kind of life. She could at least look at the part she thought was her "Colonel Father" and say - "I'm better than that." But then she finds out that WAYNE is her Father!!! Now what!?! She is what her mother is and she is part of Wayne as well!!

Sawyer is the "wrong" kind of guy. And Kate knows this. She sees her Mother and Wayne and she sees herself and Sawyer. She is her Mother/Father's daughter after all.

Thus, "Everytime I see Sawyer I see you Wayne - and it makes me sick".

But then the "Black Horse" appears. Actually instead of Black Horse we should say "Dark Horse.". Because the phrase Dark Horse is a racing term, meaning a horse you would have never thought to bet on - and he won.

GL

I would have thought it was obvious that she was bringing up the traits that WAYNE had shown, and discussed in answer to you talking about southern men, those being WAYNE and SAWYER. All view points and the point was quite clear.


I guess I don't see how the comments about Wayne being an abusive drunk related in any way to my comments about "southern men". Like I said, apples and oranges. My post was about the commonalities that I saw between Wayne and Sawyer and how many of these same traits are common in men who are raised in the rual south. Claudia815 twisted my comments to imply that being drunk and abusive also fell under this same defination of "southern men", which it does not. As I said before there are abusive drunks in every part of the world. See her quote below.
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I'm no expert in Southern Men, but if it's Wayne we're talking about, I think his true character was defined by being an alcoholic jerk who leered rather incestuously at his daughter and beat. his. wife. I'm not a big fan of "political corectness" myself, but if knocking your wife about out of "love" is a sign of a rebel and a man who speaks his mind... I think I'll pass and call the cops. .

This is what I was confused about.

What I dont get is that if she sees Wayne in Sawyer and She blew up Wayne why the heck did she sleep with him

What I dont get is that if she sees Wayne in Sawyer and She blew up Wayne why the heck did she sleep with him

Because - clearly - she moved past that false projection she was doing. It began and ended in one episode. It's a non issue at this point.

And gettinlost makes the point that Wayne is the wrong man, that Sawyer is as well. But that leaves out the most obvious point: Kate is also the wrong woman by that logic. Kate is not the girl next door, not a good girl, not even her mother's level of "good". I never understand why this seminal, pivotal point of Kate's characterization is so often ignored.

What I dont get is that if she sees Wayne in Sawyer and She blew up Wayne why the heck did she sleep with him

Because - clearly - she moved past that false projection she was doing. It began and ended in one episode. It's a non issue at this point.

And gettinlost makes the point that Wayne is the wrong man, that Sawyer is as well. But that leaves out the most obvious point: Kate is also the wrong woman by that logic. Kate is not the girl next door, not a good girl, not even her mother's level of "good". I never understand why this seminal, pivotal point of Kate's characterization is so often ignored.

Exactly!! And I do want to keep it as a "Wayne" remark and not Ship. I think Kate saw how her Mother continued to live in a relationship with Wayne - knowing how he treated her - but yet would make excuses to continue the relationship. Her Mother could have stayed with the Colonel - been faithful to the Colonel, and lived a good life! But instead she chose a "wrong" man with her heart.

Personally, I have no idea what would make a woman stay with a man like that when the choice seemed so obvious. I think Kate wanted to do just that - eliminate the "wrong" choice by destroying Wayne. And maybe she also thought that by blowing up Wayne, she could destroy that part of her that was Wayne, too.

I think about the fact that she goes back to see her Mother who is now dying of cancer - does she die alone? Or is the Colonel there with her in the end.

It's her choice that makes her "sick" - the fact that she's just as human as everyone else - her Mother, Sawyer and Wayne. She can't be the Colonel's little girl, because she isn't his little girl. But she can be Kate. And I think once she realized that, she gave up on thinking her past dictated who she was. Instead, she uses the knowledge to shape her future and who she is to become.

We cannot destroy our past - it is a part of us. But we can make peace with it and use it to shape our future.

GL

I guess I don't see how the comments about Wayne being an abusive drunk related in any way to my comments about "southern men". Like I said, apples and oranges. My post was about the commonalities that I saw between Wayne and Sawyer and how many of these same traits are common in men who are raised in the rual south. Claudia815 twisted my comments to imply that being drunk and abusive also fell under this same defination of "southern men", which it does not. As I said before there are abusive drunks in every part of the world. See her quote below.
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This is what I was confused about.
Yes, but notice the I think, at that point she is building on the foundation comment you set, agreeing, disagreeing, whatever, and adding her own thoughts in with that.

Gettinlost I think Kate's mother did die very much alone. And Kate of course added as much to her mother's pain as any of the men in her life did. What makes Kate interesting is that she isn't the innocent sweet young thing. She herself has as much - or more - guilt as any man in her past or present.

It's also important to remember that this guy Wayne was never her emotional father. She grew up and her psyche was formed with the Colonel as her father image. Wayne was never more than her mother's creepy boyfriend, as far as she knew. She killed him because she was so selfish she couldn't bear to face that he was her biological father. And I think what she ended up hating most about Wayne was that she knew he was inside HER in some way. Maybe she felt that her wild streak, that being a "killer in your heart" thing, came from him. So what she really hates is the Wayne in herself not the Wayne she thought briefly she saw in Sawyer.

If Kate is ever going to be a full fledged character, this evil she carries in herself has to be dealt with. It really diminishes her as a character if her cute little face is enough to make the audience forget what an incredibly bad person she has been, worse in many ways than Sawyer. It isn't the Wayne in Sawyer she has to worry about, it's the Wayne in herself. And I think that's what the episode was really about. But I don't think it will be revisited. It's certainly not as central to Kate's story as Jack's father, for instance, is to his story. They've repeated the Christian theme over and over, ad nauseum. The Wayne theme is nowhere near as important.

Gettinlost So what she really hates is the Wayne in herself not the Wayne she thought briefly she saw in Sawyer.
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I like that Duffy... Very nicely said.

And as you pointed out - Wayne doesn't seem to be as much an issue anymore. I think the Kate character has really grown. I've had more "positive" feelings about her than I every had.

I think WKD was a wonderful many-layered perspective on subconscious psychological Transference (which Hurley refers to in the episode). I do believe some posters have touched upon this before. The point is, the commonality traits the object exhibits don't have to be that strong or comparable for it to have an effect on the subject.

From Wikipedia:

Transference is a phenomenon in psychology characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another. One definition of transference is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood."[1] Another definition is "the redirection of feelings and desires and esp. of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object."[2] Still another definition is "a reproduction of emotions relating to repressed experiences, esp. of childhood, and the substitution of another person . . . for the original object of the repressed impulses."[3] Transference was first described by Sigmund Freud, who acknowledged its importance for psychoanalysis for better understanding of the patient's feelings.

It is common for people to transfer feelings from their parents to their partners (emotional incest) or to children (cross-generational entanglements). For instance, one could mistrust somebody who resembles an ex-spouse in manners, voice, or external appearance; or be overly compliant to someone who resembles a childhood friend.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

Other interesting stuff:

What is Transference? During transference, people turn into a "biological time machine". A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an "emotional time warp" that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present. In less poetic terms, a transference reaction means that you are reacting to someone in terms of what you need to see, you are afraid of or what you see when you know very little about the person. This all happens without you knowing why you feel and react the way you do.

What Is Projection? Some people refer to transference as a "projection." In this case you are projecting your own feelings, emotions or motivations into another person without realizing your reaction is really more about you than it is about the other person. In a life filled with transference, your job may be "the family reunion you are avoiding and you are forced to go to each day." In other cases of projection, your girlfriend may remind you of all the irritating things your mother did when you were growing up. Love at first sight is usually a projection – especially if it ends in disaster and you could have seen it coming.

Harmful Patterns. Transference reactions are caused by unmet emotional needs, neglect, seductions and other abuses that transpired when you were a child. In some forms of psychotherapy, a therapist will intentionally create or allow transference to form. When done properly, this helps a therapist to understand and find a connection between the patient’s past and how the patient misreads the present and may react ineffectively. Once you discover a transference pattern, you can chose to respond in terms of what is really happening instead of what happened 20 or 30 years ago.

Extreme Transference. In an extreme form of transference, you may conclude that someone is an awful or evil person when in fact that person’s favorite food and television show reminds you of an emotionally abusive mother and a sexually abusive brother you have been trying to forget since childhood. That’s an example of negative transference. A warm, supportive and kind person could remind you of what you are missing and wanting in their life. You might then idealize that person and begin to see him or her as wonderful beyond belief.

Transference Melt-Downs. Extreme forms of transference can turn into a full-blown obsession if it is not dealt with. Transference "meltdowns" can result in accidents, dangerous choices, nightmares, fantasies, stalking someone, psychotic reactions and sometimes violence.

I think the fact that Kate finally consciously confronted the 'Wayne' she thought saw in Sawyer, and realised where her anxiety and negative feelings were truly coming from she was able to dispel them, and realise that Sawyer was not really like Wayne at all. And thus she was able to resolve her growing feelings for Sawyer in a rational way, and her subconscious fears no longer held the same power over her.

The black horse appeared to her again, helping give her even more closure, especially since Sawyer was also able to see it and reassure her that it was 'real' and not just a crazy hallucination.

And wasn't it intersting that Hurley even brought up the idea of tranference to Jack in that episode. I think that you have hit the nail on the head with this one Zoriah. I am glad that you posted that.

I like the transference take!

And I have also been thinking about the incredible irony that Kate blew up her "no-good" dad. In doing so...in 'righting a wrong' and giving her mother her 'freedom'... she became a dangerous, murderous, criminal. Because of her mother's shocked response, and because she told the marshall that Wayne never touched her, it doesn't even seem remotely like a sacrifice or a good deed in disguise.

And I also have to relate that to the irony in James' life...becoming Sawyer, the very man who ruined his life.

I know this is off topic, but I wonder if TPTB had already decided that Kate would end up with Sawyer when they began their parallel storylines, because they really seem to coincide and connect on so many levels, including flashback locations.

And wasn't it intersting that Hurley even brought up the idea of tranference to Jack in that episode. I think that you have hit the nail on the head with this one Zoriah. I am glad that you posted that.
Be careful you just mentioned Jack where it isn't allowed...;) :rolleyes:

And wasn't it intersting that Hurley even brought up the idea of tranference to Jack in that episode. I think that you have hit the nail on the head with this one Zoriah. I am glad that you posted that.
Hurley was very much playing "exposition guy" in that scene since the very next scene they cut to was Kate talking to Wayne via Sawyer, i.e. the resolution of her "transference issues". I think it's notable that Kate is subsequently shown to be extremely at ease with Sawyer physically as she gives him a hatch tour with one arm around his waist, his arm over her shoulders and her holding his hand. Then we have the cute and flirty, "You need a haircut," scene and the shared vision of the horse that Kate has seen before but never been able to get near. Resolution of her transference issues with Sawyer, and hopefully a certain peace of mind about her past issues with Wayne as well.

I think there is quite a marked and paralleled contrast between Kate's demeanour and mood while leading her father into the house/darkness/towards his death at her hands, and helping Sawyer out of the hatch/into the light/celebrating the fact he is alive.

I think there is quite a marked and paralleled contrast between Kate's demeanour and mood while leading her father into the house/darkness/towards his death at her hands, and helping Sawyer out of the hatch/into the light/celebrating the fact he is alive.
OOOOO! I like that, Zoriah! All these views on the eppy are clarifying things that I only sensed were so. Nice job! :hug:

I think this is one of those issues that fans make far more of than the writers ever intended. If everyone stops to think, this issue was raised and resolved in a single episode. I believe it was only a catalyst for Kate to accept that she had feelings for Sawyer, which was the basic point of that episode, What Kate Did.

What about Sawyer reminded Kate of Wayne? I doubt it was anything more than the only trait they shared - redneckedness. It wasn't Sawyer's shady nature, since Wayne seemed to be a lawabiding run of the mill type of working class male who confines most of his tyranny and abuse to his own home. It wasn't that Sawyer showed a sexual interest in her. We've seen that Kate not only is used to that from men, but is very comfortable using it to manipulate them. It wasn't that Sawyer ever tried to harm Kate or that she was ever afraid of him. It was nothing real or solid, just their shared rednecked way of behaving. It was important to that episode only because Kate had identified it as the one thing standing in the way of her feelings for Sawyer, which she was feeling overwhelmed by at that point.

Whatever Kate meant in that one scene, the writers never so much as mentioned it again, so clearly it's no fundamentally important dynamic. They completely resolved it in the one scene where Kate - speaking as if to Wayne - realizes as Sawyer wakes up and behaves in his own individual, unique Sawyer way that he isn't anyone but Sawyer. She laughs, she's happy, she's relieved.

But there is a bigger clue that Kate puts Wayne to rest in that episode. That is when her horse next appears to her, it is Sawyer who sees it with her. I've heard spec that the horse represents Wayne and is a sign that she is forgiven. Others think it represents the marshall. Either way, it is some kind of symbol of redemption and I can't think of a more meaningful scene in the entire series than the two outcast criminals being the only ones to witness it. The episode ends on a peaceful note, a very happy note, with Kate stroking the horse and Sawyer looking on.

Kate hasn't mentioned Wayne,either in the present or in flashback, since that episode and I don't expect to ever have her compare him to Sawyer ever again. The issue, like the letter in Confidence Man or the boar in Outlaws, was used to further the character development of Kate and Sawyer, separately and together. The writers disposed of it, and probably expected that fans would as well.

Very well said and I completely agree with you. ;)

I think there is quite a marked and paralleled contrast between Kate's demeanour and mood while leading her father into the house/darkness/towards his death at her hands, and helping Sawyer out of the hatch/into the light/celebrating the fact he is alive.
What a wonderful observation! They so often do use a visual contrast like that between the present and the FB, and this one is particularly effective. Not only did she lead Sawyer toward light and healing for HIM, but that led to her seeing the horse, which seemed to bring her a personal peace. That was totally in contrast to the results of her actions with Wayne, which only led to more inner turmoil and chaos. How fitting, then, that Sawyer was able to share her vision and witness that moment. I love that episode for so many reasons, but I especially loved that last sequence of scenes from the time Sawyer woke up.

I've seen the latest posts and I find this fascinating.

Do you believe that this issue will probably be brought up in the near future?

I''ve always been hoping for another Kate flashback.