I think we might be looking at The Island all wrong.

As Ben put it, we need to "change our perspective".

And I don't know how this might fit into the grand scheme of things, or what the explanation could be, but I'm starting to wonder if the Island itself isn't some kind of manifestation of the Losties' thoughts and memories.

After all, we've seen how Kate's horse, Eko's brother, etc. are clearly there as such, so why not the island itself?

The Hatch :
They discover a hatch and have no idea what's inside. We eventually discover what we discover.

What if . . .

. . . the only reason we discover what we discover is because of Locke and Hurley's conversation on their way back from the Black Rock :


Hurley > So, dude? What do you think is inside of that hatch thing?
Locke > What do you thinks inside it?
Hurley > Stacks of TV dinners from the 50's, or something. And TVs, and cable, some cell phones, clean socks, soap, Twinkies... you know, for dessert, after the TV dinners. Twinkies keep for like 8000 years, man.
Locke > I like Twinkies, too.
Hurley > C'mon really, what do you think is inside?
Locke > Hope. I think hope is inside.


So, what do they find? A room full of strange food. And what is the one thing that stands out among all this food in its plain packaging? Apollo bars. Okay, they're not Twinkies, but they're not far off either.

And what does Locke find? Desmond, and with him, the computer - something to believe in, something that gives him purpose. "Hope".

The Hatch Computer :
We have this computer with these 6 numbers that have to be entered and we then see how Hurley's life was turned upside down by these numbers. So, we start to wonder about the power of these numbers and how their power could have affected Hurley.

What if . . .

. . . these numbers that Hurley had heard in the mental hospital won him the lottery through sheer dumb luck, but, as his accountant tells him, a lot of people who win the lottery think that the money brings them nothing but bad luck, and so he becomes obsessed with these numbers and their "power", and that is the sole reason they were in the hatch. A manifestation of Hurley's belief that these numbers have "power".

Rousseau's map has song lyrics on it.
What if . . .
. . . they're only their because of Shannon's memory of that film.

The 108 clock has those hieroglyphics.
What if . . .
. . . they're just a throwback to Walt's comment :
"Shouldn't we be studying birds of Egypt or something?"

The mobile in Claire's nursery.
What if . . .
. . . the fact that it was playing "her song" is just another example of this. And that it was made up of toy airplanes was just because of Kate.

The beehive.
What if . . .
. . . the only reason it was there is because Charlie is allergic to bees.

The Polar Bears.
What if . . .
. . . it's not that Walt "summoned" them, they were there because of Walt's comic and the present Michael bought him - both things probably very much on their mind. Yes, we have the Dharma explanation - but that's just all part of it.

The Weather.
What if . . .
. . . it's not that Locke can predict the weather, or that Walt can control it, it's that The Island can "hear" these comments and start and stop the rain to suit.

And here are some weird ones.

What if . . .
. . . the island is also in constant physical change. For example, the ravine and the rope bridge that Hurley and Charlie crossed and that Sayid hadn't seen.
This would explain the comment made by TPTB that they would never discover all of the island, or words to that effect.

What if . . .
. . . the only reason it's an island, or appears to be an island, is because of the islands on Paik's screens (which would be in Sun and Jin's memories) and the picture of the island in the mental institution (which would be in Hurley's and, possibly, Libby's). We see those images and think it might be a sinister connection to the island, but what if it's the other way around?

What if . . .
. . . the fact that the apparent cause of all of this is the plane is only because Kate's plane is "the one thing in the whole world that Kate does care about".



All of this stinks of VR, of course, which, personally, I hope ISN'T the explanation. But there are other possibilities. In the same way most of us, I think, imagine someone put that mobile in Claire's nursery on purpose - either through reading memories, Soul Catcher style, or through very in-depth research - this would just be an enormous extension of that same idea. After all, where did all of that baby furniture come from? And where did they take it between Claire's stay and her return? I think most likely it was never even there and they just have the power to make it appear to be there - remember the sign on the hospital door > "Magnetic Resonance Imagining".

It could still all be real, somewhere, somehow. But not all of what they're experiencing is.

Hmmmm.

What it says to me, this theory, is that the Island is made up, at least partly, of its inhabitants' memories. This kind of fits in with what Smokey did to Mr. Eko...scan his memories...

ETA: I wonder if Smokey doesn't just scan the Losties' memories and throws in a thing or two from their pasts, but does what you said...maybe, Smokey plays with the reality of the Island to include things that are relevent to each of the Lostie in ways that are not as obvious as showing Hurley's friend, Dave, or Jack's father, etc...

Reminds me of "Sphere"...you vividly imagine something and you can project it to reality...who's reality is the question.

isn't Stephen King supposed to be a big influence on the writers? For some reason this makes me think of the made-for-TV miniseries about the 'haunted mansion' that keeps re-inventing itself. i can't remember the name of the series, but there was a companion book/pseudo diary titled The Diary of Ellen Rimbauer.

Could the island have these same 'reconstructive' properties?

isn't Stephen King supposed to be a big influence on the writers? For some reason this makes me think of the made-for-TV miniseries about the 'haunted mansion' that keeps re-inventing itself. i can't remember the name of the series, but there was a companion book/pseudo diary titled The Diary of Ellen Rimbauer.

Could the island have these same 'reconstructive' properties?Yes, I know that TPTB love SK and say that his creativity is a great inspiration to them during these "LOST Years"...

Baileysdad >
Reminds me of "Sphere"...you vividly imagine something and you can project it to reality...who's reality is the question.


Your comment in turn reminds me of what Locke told Walt :
"See this knot, Walt? I want you to aim for it, right here. Focus on it, alright? Picture it in your mind's eye. You know what that is right? The mind's eye?"

And we all know what happened, Walt "made it so". As he also seems to be able to do when playing backgammon.


Juniebun >
I wonder if Smokey doesn't just scan the Losties' memories and throws in a thing or two from their pasts, but does what you said...maybe, Smokey plays with the reality of the Island to include things that are relevent to each of the Lostie in ways that are not as obvious as showing Hurley's friend, Dave, or Jack's father, etc...


That's sort of what I'm envisaging, although not necessarily Smokey doing it. But yeah, the idea that the Losties' memories aren't only being used for animals and people.

And melarkey, that King book you mention sounds like it could be a big clue.
Did a quick search and I think you're talking about something called Rose Red. I can't find any more info though. Anyone?

And thanks everyone for not shooting it down as madness.

lucidity...it was Rose Red! thanks!..i thought of the parallels between the movie and Lost when i first started watching the show.

anyway, the house somehow becomes a living being and reconstructs itself repeatedly in order to trap the inhabitants inside the house. victims become a part of the house's construction. one victim might become a statue in the front hall, another might be imbedded in a wall. i think in one scene, a group of people have agreed to stick together to keep the house from claiming them, so the house builds a new wing, and they are all (hee, hee) Lost!....it's been so long since i've seen the movie, i can't remember exactly what happened. guess i'm gonna have to rent it!

Yeah, I'll have to dig it up from somewhere too.


Another clear example that I forgot to include earlier was the food drop. No sooner has Hurley got rid of his food stash there's a food drop.

And we have in fact actually SEEN this idea of the island being able to physically change itself. Remember when Smokey was dragging Locke through the jungle and then down that hole - well, where did that hole come from and where did it go to?

And we have in fact actually SEEN this idea of the island being able to physically change itself. Remember when Smokey was dragging Locke through the jungle and then down that hole - well, where did that hole come from and where did it go to?

We haven't SEEN the island change anything. As far as anyone knows, the hole was there before and is still there. Nobody ever went back to chheck on it.

LostEverything,
Do you honestly believe there's a bloody great hole in the middle of the jungle floor that no-one had seen before that incident, and that no-one has gone back to investigate since?

Don't forget the episode with Boone and Shannon where he sees her killed and consequently realizes that he needs not run to her every time she gets herself in trouble. As Locke said: "so that's what the island wanted you to see?" And what if the hatch was created just for Locke? And the airplane and Pearl for Eko? Or all of the things and events that reflect each ones past. Don't worry about how things come about. They just do, and they do so for a reason. Concentrate on why things happen. Every thing and every action on the island has a purpose, and the purpose is for the Losties benefit. This is the heart and soul of the story.

LostEverything,
Do you honestly believe there's a bloody great hole in the middle of the jungle floor that no-one had seen before that incident, and that no-one has gone back to investigate since?

I never saw anyone go look for it, did you?

Okay, LostEverything, I really don't want to seem argumentative, and I don't want to fill the thread up so early on with banter, but I think this question of whether or not we've SEEN the Island change is vital.

Yes, you're right that no-one's ever been back to investigate, but I suspect this is simply a writing ploy so as to avoid revealing too much too soon.

Do you imagine Locke just happened to be near Smokey's pre-established hole, or that Smokey has several of these holes around the island that no-one has seen?

I really do believe we can take it as fact that the Island "opened up" to create that hole at that time.

Okay, LostEverything, I really don't want to seem argumentative, and I don't want to fill the thread up so early on with banter, but I think this question of whether or not we've SEEN the Island change is vital.

Yes, you're right that no-one's ever been back to investigate, but I suspect this is simply a writing ploy so as to avoid revealing too much too soon.

Do you imagine Locke just happened to be near Smokey's pre-established hole, or that Smokey has several of these holes around the island that no-one has seen?

I really do believe we can take it as fact that the Island "opened up" to create that hole at that time.

We didn't SEE the hole open up.
If the island could open up a hole at will, why did Smokey have to drag him to it?
We didn't SEE the hole close up.
We didn't SEE anyone go back to look for it, nor did we hear anyone speak of it.

So your statement the we've have SEEN the island change itself is unfounded and base on your own assumptions.

So there.

Regardless of the banter going on here, I REALLY like this theory alot and has given me a 'new perspective'... thanks Lucidity! :biggrin:

did u include the reference to charlie finding his guitar its a really really good one. "you found it because you wanted to find it " or something

and jack found the caves because he wanted a source of fresh water, shelter.

Also i had a thread a while agoe called faith healer where i theorized that jacks ability to heal was directly proportional to his belief that he could save them.

LostEverything,
Okay, you're right. I shouldn't have been so bold in my original statement.
I will rephrase it to :
"There was also the time we saw Locke dragged down that hole. Do we assume the hole was there all along, or could it be that the Island "opened up" and created that hole, i.e. an example of the Island being able to physically change itself."

lost_in_sawyer,
Thanks for the compliments.

and gusthepolarbear,
Yeah, there are loads more examples that I could mention, but you're right, the guitar was a particularly good one. Locke's line was :
"What I know is that this island just might give you what you're looking for, but you have to give the island something." (referring to Charlie's drugs)

And yeah, Jack too. He sees Christian, follows him, finds the coffin, empty, and then the fresh water. And how likely is it that they find that fresh water there? Or that Kate and Sawyer find that waterfall? All of these specific natural "things" in such a small area. It's all too much. I'm really starting to see the Island as a player in this story, and I know many of you have since the beginning, but for me it's something new. And it all ties in with Locke's talk of the Island as a sentient being.

And your mention of Jack's ability to heal being a question of belief.
Just last night I was re-watching some eps and I thought the same thing when he says to Sarah "You're going to dance at your wedding", and all the nurses look at him like he's mad. As you say, it seemed like it was more a question of willpower or determination than anything else.

That very point, combined with this new perspective on the island started me thinking back to all the times the Losties have spoken of Destiny and Fate, and especially Sun's line about whether or not they're there on the island as a punishment for all the things they've done in the past, and Shannon asks who she thinks is punishing them, and Sun answers "Fate". That and Eko and Locke's "Don't mistake coincidence for Fate".

I think this idea that the Island can make these things happen and appear is going to be a combination of the Losties' will and memory, the Island's power, and Fate. Perhaps THAT is the Island's power, to send Fate into overdrive.
A lot of that stuff was talked about on het_genie's Fate thread. I'm going to have to read through it again and see what is relevant here.

Did someone will the tree-crashing pilot-eating monster into existance? Were the Others willed into existance too? Or are the Others willing the Losties into existance? Or are they, like Alice, all part of someone else's dream? And if that someone left off dreaming, where do you suppose the Losties and Others and Smokey would be?......do you think they'd go out -bang!- just like a candle? (Oops channeling Lewis Carroll there)

Were we seeing the island change when we witnessed the strange tides in S1 that threatened to wash the fuselage out to sea?

pleasance,
First, and most important, the writers have ruled out in every which way imaginable that this is all in someone's head, etc., so that is definitely not what this this thread is about. It's hard to divide in one's mind, but I'm suggesting certain aspects of it COME from the Losties' minds, not that it's all IN their minds.
I do wonder though about Smokey. I wanted to mention it in my thread-opener, but I thought that it might be too much for people to get their head around. I wonder if Smokey itself might exist, but that it's "monster" form - smashing trees, making weird noises, etc. - might be a product of the Losties memories and fears. We've already heard Rose's comment that one of the noises it makes sounds very familiar to her.

Whenever I think about that, I can't help remembering Ghostbusters and the StayPuft Marshmallow Man.

thedaveeyres,
If this were the explanation for the weird stuff that goes on on the island, then it would almost certainy be the explanation for ALL the weird stuff, including strange tides, weather, etc.

We didn't SEE the hole open up.
If the island could open up a hole at will, why did Smokey have to drag him to it?
We didn't SEE the hole close up.
We didn't SEE anyone go back to look for it, nor did we hear anyone speak of it.

So your statement the we've have SEEN the island change itself is unfounded and base on your own assumptions.

So there.

Yes, I quite agree, I was responding primarily to the above.

Whilst not being convinced of this theory in general, it's certainly an interesting idea!

Hasn't the theory that this is all in someone's imagination already been debunked? I think this would fall into the category as well.

I mean, Each person on the Island has a past, and it's been proven that the Island is an experiment for the DHARMA Intiative, so the fact that everything is already there just means that exactly; it's already been there.

Meddle Head,
As I pointed out earlier on, my suggestion is most certainly not that this is all in someone's head. I am talking about the possibility that the island, or someone on the island, has the power to make things appear - in the same way it makes people appear - and that things like the Swan hatch might be examples of this.

After Eko's encounter with Smokey / Yemi, it's clear the presence of Kate's horse, Christian, Yemi, etc. were created by Smokey, and that doesn't mean it's all in someone's head. So why would smokey / the island also being responsible for the hatches, the beechcraft, the rope bridge, etc., signify anything different.

And just to clarify another point, it certainly hasn't been proven that "the Island is an experiment for the DHARMA Intiative". We have EVIDENCE that suggests Dharma used the island for a period of time, but that doesn't mean that's what the island IS, more likely it just forms part of its rich and bizarre history.

And, not wanting to sound too paranoid, but I'm not even sure Dharma ever actually existed.

And, not wanting to sound too paranoid, but I'm not even sure Dharma ever actually existed.Luc..now you're starting to sound like Robert/Dr. Suds! ;)

Greg Nations has confirmed that Solaris is one of the influences on Lost, and in solaris, the planet "reads" people's minds and "guesses" their deepest wishes and brings them to life. The same goes to Sphere. Indeed, some of what lucidity states is clearly the authors intention, but not everything. Not everything on the island is in someone's collective or individual minds.

That's a cool theory. I really like it.

If the island or something on the island gives people their wishes memories that would tie up with Ben needing a spinal surgeon and one dropped from the sky.
Julliet looking like Jack's wife.

I like this theory alot and its starting to make me think, as we've seen from flashbacks everybody is interconnected somehow to someone else whether they realise it or not!

Juniebun >
Luc..now you're starting to sound like Robert/Dr. Suds! ;)


As I was writing it I was thinking that exact same thing.


annieone >
Not everything on the island is in someone's collective or individual minds.


Thanks for the Solaris mention, I didn't know Gregg Nations had said that.

But just to clarify a point, and I fear I'll be doing this every fifth post until February, this thread is not in any way about it all being in the Losties' heads. I think the Island / Smokey might be able to materialise certain people and things, OR, through a Soul Catcher type of technology, make the Losties perceive SOME things that aren't really there. Nothing to do with dreams, collective consciousness, etc.

Don't you all think it's strange, for example, how few people ever actually entered the Swan hatch? There were 60-odd survivors, and who have we seen in there? Off the top of my head, Jack, Locke, Kate, Sawyer, Michael, Jin, Hurley, Rose, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Eko. And Ben, but not a 815 survivor (at least not this time ?????). I might be forgetting a load, but it's significant, I think.
In the same way I think it's significant that we only see the show focus on certain Losties. I've thought from day one that in the end there will be an explantion for that. That the other survivors weren't "chosen" or whatever.

galdino,
thanks.

sir john cedar,
YES, YES, YES! My favourite topic. JULIET IS SARAH, JULIET IS SARAH, JULIET IS SARAH!
I'm not saying you're as mad as me, but you made mention of it and that's good enough.

And yes, Ben's is another interesting case.
But I want to get some way into the idea before bringing the Others into the equation, because then we have to ask ourselves what part they play in it all.

But, come on!, JULIET IS SARAH, JULIET IS SARAH, JULIET IS SARAH! It fits.

Were we seeing the island change when we witnessed the strange tides in S1 that threatened to wash the fuselage out to sea? yet had no effect on where the tail section 'landed' or Desmonds boat

Interesting thread Lucidity in it's own Santa Rosa kinda way. It reminds me of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shore_Leave_%28TOS_episode%29

Redbird,
That Star Trek link is brilliant.
Note "Sturgeon's original draft had some unusual touches like giant robot hands coming out of the planet to collect McCoy's body." Just like when Smokey grabbed Locke? And the bengal tigers are now the polar bears, and that Japanese fighter plane could be the beechcraft's equivalent.

And that giant bunny would certainly make Todell happy.

I do wonder though about Smokey. I wanted to mention it in my thread-opener, but I thought that it might be too much for people to get their head around. I wonder if Smokey itself might exist, but that it's "monster" form - smashing trees, making weird noises, etc. - might be a product of the Losties memories and fears.

So who was thinking about Jurassic Park when the monster attacked the pilot? (The viewers maybe? I would have been seriously freaked out if there had been a rippling glass of water somewhere:eek2: )

And this still doesn't answer my question about The Others.......are they part of the wish fulfillment of the Losties....or are the Losties part of the wish fulfillment of the Others? Or are they both part of someone else's wish fulfillment?

And why can't anyone wish themselves off the island?

pleasance >
So who was thinking about Jurassic Park when the monster attacked the pilot?


Well, Hurley kept asking Jack if it might be a dinosaur.


pleasance >
And this still doesn't answer my question about The Others.......are they part of the wish fulfillment of the Losties....or are the Losties part of the wish fulfillment of the Others? Or are they both part of someone else's wish fulfillment?


And The Others . . .
As I said before, I do have an idea. Well, two possibilities actually.
But nothing definite, which is why I was avoiding the matter for the time being.

As you say, they might be part of whoever or whatever is controlling this Island scenario, or they might have been created along with it.

My suspicion is that some of the Losties are real, the main characters. They were put into this situation for some reason, but that a large part of the Island mystery was simply created as part of this idea that things on the island, the very island itself, is taken from different elements of the Losties memories. I think that the background Losties are just part of the set-up.

Well, I do like the idea that the Others didn't exist before the "crash". They think they did, they have memories of what happened before, but the truth is they were created along with everything else.

This would tie in with one of my favourite quotes, from Bertrand Russell :
"How can we be sure that the world was not created five minutes ago, and our memories with it?"

However, there was a Tom line way back at the end of Season 1 (when they took Walt from the raft) that I think will prove to be imporant :


Michael > Are we glad to see you!
Bearded Man > What's going on? What are you folks doing this far out here?
Michael > We were, we were... the plane crashed. We were on the island for months, man.
Bearded Man > Plane crash, huh? Well, how about that?


Even before season 3 people said I was mad for thinking that was a suggestion that there was no plane crash, that the Others know these people are brought to the island, but that each time they're given a different story. And that's why he sounds amused by the idea of a plane crash. People said it was just his tone.
I was thinking like in the film The Island, where each of the clones is given one of a set number of childhood memories.

But, even now, after seeing the crash in the Season 3 opener, I think there might be an element of that somewhere.


More important, is the fact that we've got a Juliet flashback coming up, so I assume that means they're real.

And why can't anyone wish themselves off the island?

Perhaps if they want it enough...Like Michael and Walt did?

Maybe they couldn't leave on the raft because Jin and Sawyer subconsciously didn't want to leave the island? Jin can finally have a child with Sun, and Sawyer has found Kate and can finally be himself. It's not too unreasonable to suggest that all the major losties have some reason to want to stay on the island.

jabboy,
Definitely, one of the theories that was being knocked about way back was that none of the major Losties really had any place to be. It sounds outrageous, but stop and think about it. Jin and Sun are finally safe from Paik. Charlie had escaped the lifestyle that was killing him. Locke finally has a family. Claire didn't know what to do with herself or her child. Rose is alive, and that's obviously what Bernard wanted too. Kate doesn't have to run any more. Sawyer has found acceptance from others and from himself. The only one that runs against this trend is Sayid, who probably still wants to find his Nadia.


Getting back to the original point a moment, there are some other, smaller things that could also tie in with this idea that the island is a manifestation of their memories.

Remember the lava lamp in the Hatch. Everyone thought it might mean Tom was Ben, etc. Change your perspective - it's there because Claire remembers it.

We have the Geronimo Jackson album. People wondered if the guy at the commune who said it was a cool T-Shirt might be Dharma now or something. Think backwards. It's there because of Locke's memories.

There was that painting on the wall during the op scene in The Staff. I remember there was a thread about the artist and I liked it so I did some investigation and showed that it was the same artist as the painting on the wall at Anthony Cooper's house - can't remember if it was the same painting or just the same artist, but it could mean the same thing.

Jin and Sun have never seen the Orientation films. I bet Candle is like Jin's brother or something.

Another important one might be the Hatch computer itself. Over on the Hatch Computer thread I was always trying to work out how Michael got his knowledge of the computer. Might it be that he had used one exactly like it before and that's where it came from?

Another clear example that I forgot to include earlier was the food drop. No sooner has Hurley got rid of his food stash there's a food drop.


It was at this exact moment....... when I seriously started to wonder if the island was providing for them.

seaquelost >
It was at this exact moment....... when I seriously started to wonder if the island was providing for them.


Totally. It was also when I started to wonder about Libby.
Her line : "Pretty weird, huh? So the island won't let you lose weight... you destroy your stash, then bang... more food falls from the sky."
Yes, it makes perfect sense, but the tone in which she said it always made me think she was challenging Hurley to think, to see what's really going on, to "change his perspective".
In the same way Ben challenges Locke and Jack to think about where all that food comes from.

Wow - what a fascinating thread. I can see a lot of truth in this.

I too don't think the island is the product of someone's memories, a bad dream if you like - but certainly there seem to be projections which can only be explained as some form of telekinetic energy manifesting itself materially.

And it is interesting how there is a sort of intertextual template in play so that scenes, objects, pictures from Losties' past are materialised on the island too.

More worrying then is the lack of curiousity the Losties display over the mutliple moments of serendipity they keep encountering ... who's urged others to be curious so far? Ben, Bernard, perhaps Libby, probably Locke to a small degree?

Personally I think the coincidences, the visions, ARE projections in part, and that what the Others call 'the good ones' are in fact those Losties most able to engage in psychic-paranormal activity/communications, even though they have no idea of their own powers. In fact, apart from Sayid I think, all of the main A-List Lostie characters have experienced some form of psychic/paranormal experience so far. Actually, scrub that, Sayid was one of the first Losties to hear the 'whispers' so he too must be susceptible.

So, for example, the smoke monster is often seen as shape-shifting into personalised visions/hallucinations, but maybe this is only feasible with a very few people, and those are the 'good ones' the Others want to get hold of.

The problem with this theory is Jack, who was not on 'Jacob's list' but has experienced a hallucination (his father in White Rabbit). Of the other A-List Losties, I'm not sure Charlie has had a psychic experience either, aside maybe from his strange dreams, but then again, there is no evidence he is wanted by the Others. The same can be said of Sun and Jin. Perhaps Bernard and Rose too (although I'm not sure about Rose here - she seems quietly knowing). Ana Lucia was very removed it seemed from 'psychic forces', the most prosaic of all perhaps.

Eko was very in touch with his 'psychical' side, and it is clear (or at least I think it is!) that the Others tried to get hold of him on the first night of the crash. Ben calls Locke 'good' and Locke is certainly open to paranormal energies. The Others wanted Kate and Sawyer who seem remarkably mundane in many ways, except both have had visionary episodes - the black horse and the boar respectively. Hurley has been re-visited by Dave of course. Walt was a strange kid from the outset, and kids in general are seen as better conductors of telekinetic energy. Hence the Others wanting Claire so badly, although I wonder if Claire herself has had psychic experiences, through her dreams.

I often wonder if the whole Dharma project is about building a utopia akin to the Chrysalids, as in the John Wyndham book, where telepathic communications has become the norm. The Losties are perhaps suitable research subjects - maybe because former subjects have died or mutated or simply escaped, hence the need for cages and the presence of other 'Others' somewhere on the island.

Remember the lava lamp in the Hatch. Everyone thought it might mean Tom was Ben, etc. Change your perspective - it's there because Claire remembers it.


Maybe the island is a giant Sims-type game and there's an outside player in God-mode who can supply or deny the needs/wants of those inside the game. (It was the lava lamp that inspired that thought) The needs/wants of the Losties are met/denied because an outside god-like person can hear their wishes.

Incidentally I can imagine a "Lost" version of The Sims :rolleyes:....I think it would sell quite well! lol

pleasance >
Incidentally I can imagine a "Lost" version of The Sims :rolleyes:....I think it would sell quite well! lol


Oh my God. I've just realised how much I'd LOVE to have my own hatch to fill, SIMS-style.

gallivant, great, great post - welcome to the Fuselage. There's a thread slightly related to your last paragraph you might enjoy. Pearl and the Power of Empathy (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66331).

Okay, just another little example that I remembered.
Hurley says they need something to entertain themselves with, and then along comes Ethan with the bag containing the golf clubs.:golf:

I often wonder if the whole Dharma project is about building a utopia akin to the Chrysalids, as in the John Wyndham book, where telepathic communications has become the norm. The Losties are perhaps suitable research subjects - maybe because former subjects have died or mutated or simply escaped, hence the need for cages and the presence of other 'Others' somewhere on the island.

haha, finally, i've made so many comparisons between Lost and the chrysallids, follow Luciditys post down the rabbit hole to take you deeper into that line of discussion

Luc: Awesome thread! A few more possible what ifs:

...Rose's fear of flying caused the plane to break up in mid-air?

...Shannon's language phobia caused the distress signal to be in French?

...Michael's fear of going to look for Vincent caused the rain to stop in S1?

...Charlie's desire for his guitar caused it to reappear?

I wonder, though, do the Island's manifestations include people? Des does, after all, seem to have memories of his past life.
Greg Nations has confirmed that Solaris is one of the influences on Lost, and in solaris, the planet "reads" people's minds and "guesses" their deepest wishes and brings them to life. The same goes to Sphere. Indeed, some of what lucidity states is clearly the authors intention, but not everything. Not everything on the island is in someone's collective or individual minds.
annie: I strongly agree with the Solaris connection -- recall that a character named Kelvin figures prominently in both. I'd caution you, however, against using human concepts like "reading" and "guessing" to describe the mysteries of Solaris. The main theme of the book is that efforts at communication fail precisely because we keep trying to anthropomorphize Solaris.

I tend to think of it (in both Solaris and Lost) as reflecting their subconscious fears and desires. Fits well with the Lord of the Flies analogy, which Nations has also mentioned.

Totally. It was also when I started to wonder about Libby.
Her line : "Pretty weird, huh? So the island won't let you lose weight... you destroy your stash, then bang... more food falls from the sky."
Yes, it makes perfect sense, but the tone in which she said it always made me think she was challenging Hurley to think, to see what's really going on, to "change his perspective".
In the same way Ben challenges Locke and Jack to think about where all that food comes from.You know, in some weird way, this makes me think of how intensely Ben wanted Jack to want to do the operation. He wanted it to be Jack's choice. Juliet has wanted Jack to act and respond in a certain way, too. What's the significance of the Losties changing their ways of thinking? Yes, it would help the Others seemingly get what they seemingly want, but...how does the Losties' wants, needs, decisions, etc. affect what happens on the Island? Are their thoughts individually or collectively making their own destiny more literally than we think? Maybe, the reason that Ben wanted Jack to really want to do the operation is because there is someone on the Island wishing the opposite thing...or wishing for Ben to die? This brings me to a strange question: What if two people on the Island want the opposite of a situation to happen? Who "wins"?
100%
Hey! I just had a weird thought: I wonder how, in this line of thinking, that people's deaths happen? Was Shannon so mad at Boone that she said something stupid like, "I wish he was dead, that jerk!" Did Locke's thoughts about looking for meaning in his life come into play with Boone's death, too? What about Shannon's death? That doesn't make sense. What about Ana and Eko?

There's a great thread just kicked off on why Locke had one black and one white eye in Claire's dream (and the black/white theme is used elsewhere, with the Adam and Eve corpses for example) - basically the OP posits the view that Locke's eyes symbolised his 'role' as a 'piece' on a backgammon board. In this instance, the backgammon board is the island, and he is a piece, a pawn, who is 'used' by other external forces on the island to achieve their aims. I think this theory meshes very well with what THIS thread is describing too, as it would seem that the Losties own psyches and mental powers can be harnessed and utilised to influence circumstances, perhaps as part of a broader strategic game in play, beyond their control or knowledge.

I really am beginning to think that the psychic/paranormal aspect of Lost is all-important and was a hugely important area of research undertaken by Dharma - before the initiative appears to have foundered (we don't yet know why, but it could be due to the infection or incident?). The Others (and their descendants/allies) are maybe divided, acrimoniously - again, for purposes we don't yet know, but it would be fun to speculate - and vestiges of their research interests remain, perhaps explored still, utilising different methods.

Maybe the Losties - and indeed any other intruders and/or 'guests' to the island - are appropriated or at least utilised by the opposing camps, either through physical coercion, social assimiliation and/or are stragically controlled using telepathic/telekinetic energies and forces; including psychic-material manifestations, visions, dreams, pre-cognitive powers. Thus the Losties are pawns in a wider battle and many - those with strong psychic/telepathic abilities - could be 'recruited' for more direct hostile purposes, in addition to research.

There is no doubt I think that the mystical/psychic/paranormal experiences in Lost are genuinely shaping the plot, because they influence people's actions, again and again. It would be even more interesting if there was a genuine battle between the 2 'Others' camps, with potentially different approaches, to secure influence?

I wonder then if the Others we might not have seen yet, are more advanced in this field, as Ben and Co. seem to be pretty reliant still on using force and verbal persuasion rather than telepathic communications. Maybe they are more akin to Men of Science, than Men of Faith ...

If this was all true, then we could find multiple examples where Losties have already experienced psychic events which have proved vital in determining events, and perhaps the pre-cog abilities now demonstrated by Desmond might further substantiate this theory, as his visions become an overt example of undue external influence shaping events and opinion, if Desmond gains respect and awe from his fellow beach-dwellers because of his abilities. This might be the new and 'dangerous' leadership amongst the Losties we have been warned of as one camp of 'Others' is able to take greater control, upset the balance of power on the island, through Desmond's impressive powers.

And BTW, thanks Lucidity for your kind words. Am off to check out your thread recommendation!

Along these lines, what if the reason that the Others are wanting the Losties to make certain decisions, to want to do things, etc., is because they are trying to influence the outcome of everything somehow? In regards to Hurley's comment of, "Loop, dude!", what if, like someone else suggested somewhere on the Fuselage, what we are seeing has already happened in somewhere else in a Wrinkle in Time and the Others didn't like the Outcome? Are they trying to influence this loop, the one that we are seeing right now, so that it comes out the "Right Way" this time? Maybe, they can't have a direct influence on chaning things, but the Losties can?

bigmouth >
Luc: Awesome thread!


Thanks a lot.


bigmouth >
A few more possible what ifs:

...Rose's fear of flying caused the plane to break up in mid-air?

...Shannon's language phobia caused the distress signal to be in French?

...Michael's fear of going to look for Vincent caused the rain to stop in S1?

...Charlie's desire for his guitar caused it to reappear?

I wonder, though, do the Island's manifestations include people? Des does, after all, seem to have memories of his past life.


Rose's fear : that's a great one. I've been wondering recently if the crash and island might have been caused by a unique combination of fears and desires, and perhaps the catalyst was Walt's "ability", and maybe Hurley's "luck". As you say, Rose's fear of flying; but also Walt not wanting to go to LA; probably Kate thinking the same, and wishing for once she could stop running (think Jack in the Pilot "You're not running now", and the look on her face); Jack not wanting to have to face his family, perhaps. Maybe it all just came together.

And can the island form people too? Well, that's where it all started. We "know" the island / smokey / someone caused Yemi to come into being, taken direct from Eko's sub-conscious, so, from that, I wondered if other things on the island had come into being in the same way.


Juniebun >
Are their thoughts individually or collectively making their own destiny more literally than we think?


This is VERY much where my brain's at at the moment.

Gallivant,
In terms of "sides", I'm putting together what I believe is going to be an important thread right now, and this area overlaps that thread, so I'm not going to put MY OWN thoughts on that matter down just yet. By that I don't mean it's off-topic or anything, just that I'm keeping quiet for now.

The idea of psychic powers at work, etc., has picked up weight in the last couple of weeks, I know, but personally that's not quite what I envisage happening. I think there's a connection there, but not that there are entire groups using these abilities.
Just my opinion, nothing to back it up.


Juniebun >
Along these lines, what if the reason that the Others are wanting the Losties to make certain decisions, to want to do things, etc., is because they are trying to influence the outcome of everything somehow?


That statement reminds me very much of the talk on het's Fate thread. The idea I was pushing there was that if you had enough knowledge, by controlling small, seemingly unimportant factors, you could basically control the future.

That idea was in reference to the idea that the Losties were manipulated into boarding flight 815 through a trange series of circumstances, that might have been anything but circumstance.


Juniebun >
In regards to Hurley's comment of, "Loop, dude!", what if, like someone else suggested somewhere on the Fuselage, what we are seeing has already happened in somewhere else in a Wrinkle in Time and the Others didn't like the Outcome? Are they trying to influence this loop, the one that we are seeing right now, so that it comes out the "Right Way" this time? Maybe, they can't have a direct influence on chaning things, but the Losties can?


Again, I've been thinking about these things recently too.
Over on the Soul Catcher thread I've always thought that Lost might be one huge Groundhog Day, where every now and then these people crash on the island and it all starts over again. And, yeah, Hurley's "loop" comment, and also the way with the Lost logo at the beginning of each ep it closes in on the "o", and how that might refer to a circle, i.e. a loop. Everything going full circle.

Well, maybe Ben and co. are just trying to influence the Losties in such a way as to get them to finally make the right decisions so they can ALL escape this Groundhog Day :


Jack : If you could leave this island why would you still be here?
Ben : Yes, Jack, why would we be here?
Jack : You're lying. You're stuck here just like we are.





Another possible example of the Island being a manifestation of the Losties' sub-conscious that came to me the other day was the Others' video cameras and how much they remind me of the camera outside Locke's father's house. A time of his life that probably haunts him. His dad's camera has got the little red light and everything.

You know what's weird? Although I suppose it's up to your interpretation, but I just had the thought that Jack's relationship with Ben is sort of like the one that he had with his father, in some ways. Ben is very controlling with Jack, but does it almost in a passive-agressive way. He never says what he really wants, but he demands so much of Jack. Both men, Christian and Ben, definitely have ego complexes and while they profess to care a lot about people, they have a strange way of showing it. Also, there's a cryptic blonde in the middle of Jack and Ben, just like there was with Jack and Christian. Ben has asked Jack to save him and, in a more passive aggressive way, Christian was kind of asking Jack to do the same, but both men aren't 100% clear are why they need Jack to help them and what's going on in their lives. Jack reacts aggressively and defensively to both men and doesn't understand them most of the time. I don't think that Jack knew that Christian was asking him for help, in a way. Funny how now that he knows that Ben wants his help he's resistant, doesn't think Ben deserves it, but he will probably end up doing it...

Well, maybe Ben and co. are just trying to influence the Losties in such a way as to get them to finally make the right decisions so they can ALL escape this Groundhog Day :


And when they do make the right decision which is to face the problem that has traumatized them in the past, they die, thus completing their program. Sounds like therapy to me.

Juniebun >
You know what's weird? Although I suppose it's up to your interpretation, but I just had the thought that Jack's relationship with Ben is sort of like the one that he had with his father, in some ways.


Now you mention it, yeah, there are definitely a lot of parallel issues there.
Maybe next ep we're going to get Juliet saying to Jack "Has it not occurred to you that Ben bears a striking resemblance to your father." :shock1:


LostSanity >
And when they do make the right decision which is to face the problem that has traumatized them in the past, they die, thus completing their program. Sounds like therapy to me.


I know what you're getting at, but that wouldn't really be the case we're talking about here. The idea would be that the Others are as trapped as the Losties are, and the only difference is they have the benefit of experience. What you're suggesting is, I think, more along the lines of The Others being the "therapists". And also I really don't think that death being a good thing could ever make for good television.

I honestly do see a lot of validity to your VR Therapy theory. And I certainly wouldn't be that surprised to discover that's the answer - it would explain a lot of the stuff that I question most (access to memories, etc.), but, personally, I just don't LIKE it as an answer. You certainly can't ASSUME the Lost answer is going to be something that fits into your area of interests, but you can HOPE.:wink3:



(Soul Catcher (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=55990) :borg:)

I know what you're getting at, but that wouldn't really be the case we're talking about here. The idea would be that the Others are as trapped as the Losties are, and the only difference is they have the benefit of experience. What you're suggesting is, I think, more along the lines of The Others being the "therapists". And also I really don't think that death being a good thing could ever make for good television.


If this is trauma therapy then death is a necessary ingredient since most trauma is caused by the death of someone near and dear. The death of one person on the island plays into the therapy of another. For example Shannons fake death played into Boones therapy. Then Boones gruesome death was a reenactment of Shannons fathers death which left Shannon without a protector on the island as in real life. Then Shannons real death was part of both AL and Sayids therapy. Then ALs death was significant in the Michael/Walt therapy and Libby's death part of Hurley's therapy and so on. It shows that they are all interconnected in each others therapy. The person actually dying does not have to experience death if a VR environment is assumed. They can be pulled from the program and either another person or simply a program can take over their avatar.

The others may not all be therapists, many might be former patients who chose to live in this environment similar to what Captain Pike chose in the Star Trek episode The Menagerie. Desmond may be an example of a patient who turns into a therapist helper who chooses to stay. Trauma can take many forms such as disabling injuries due to war which might explain so many military people among the others.

All of the things that are expressed in this thread are quite valid and significant as are those in many other threads but the only question that seems to be lacking is why all these things are the way that they appear. I'm just offering one possible answer.

I definitely can see how someone might see symbols of therapy with regards to what's happening on the Island, but wouldn't there be an easier way? A more helpful way? I know that some people need tough love, but this goes way beyond tough love...

LostSanity,
I agree totally.
As I said before, I REALLY do think your theory is a good one. That isn't just a patronising, friendly line - I'm not like that. As I said right back at the beginning on your thread - it's just not PERSONALLY what I would LIKE to see happen. Not that I don't see how it could, or anything like it.

I definitely can see how someone might see symbols of therapy with regards to what's happening on the Island, but wouldn't there be an easier way? A more helpful way? I know that some people need tough love, but this goes way beyond tough love...

Not really that tough. The problem with trauma therapy is that in order for it to be effective the patient has to be able to reexperience the cause of trauma which is traumatic in itself and most people are unwilling to do it. By having this indirect means of reexperiencing the event they are still traumatized somewhat but not quite as much and the expectation is that they might adjust and actually face their experience. Here is one example that shows what I think is a prototype of what is happening. VR Therapy for Combat Stress (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4806921)

That statement reminds me very much of the talk on het's Fate thread. The idea I was pushing there was that if you had enough knowledge, by controlling small, seemingly unimportant factors, you could basically control the future.

That idea was in reference to the idea that the Losties were manipulated into boarding flight 815 through a trange series of circumstances, that might have been anything but circumstance.


Again, I've been thinking about these things recently too.
Over on the Soul Catcher thread I've always thought that Lost might be one huge Groundhog Day, where every now and then these people crash on the island and it all starts over again. And, yeah, Hurley's "loop" comment, and also the way with the Lost logo at the beginning of each ep it closes in on the "o", and how that might refer to a circle, i.e. a loop. Everything going full circle.

Well, maybe Ben and co. are just trying to influence the Losties in such a way as to get them to finally make the right decisions so they can ALL escape this Groundhog Day :


I know some people here aren't so keen on it, but this sounds eerily like Day Break. Hopper changes seemingly insignificant things after every clue, and ends up changing his future. It seems like DB is like a smaller scale idea of Lost (and may be why we get our little sneak peeks between this particular show's advert breaks) This could be TPTB trying to change our perspective prior to Feb? :biggrin:

pipsteruk >
I know some people here aren't so keen on it, but this sounds eerily like Day Break. Hopper changes seemingly insignificant things after every clue, and ends up changing his future. It seems like DB is like a smaller scale idea of Lost (and may be why we get our little sneak peeks between this particular show's advert breaks) This could be TPTB trying to change our perspective prior to Feb? :biggrin:


Wow, I just wikied Day Break and that really is Groundhog Day - the Detective Series.

If anything, though, I'd imagine such a story being included in a Lost hiatus show would rule out the possibility of something similar happening within Lost, wouldn't it?
I mean I don't know how American TV works, but it strikes me they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to do something like that.

I don't know. Maybe the opposite is true, somehow, and it really is a clue. I suppose by the time they finish Lost and explain the mystery no-one's going to remember Day Break anyway. Or maybe one of the Lost writers saw Day Break and called ABC and said, "Are you crazy? - That's the Lost ending!" and that's why it got canned.

I've been wondering recently if the crash and island might have been caused by a unique combination of fears and desires, and perhaps the catalyst was Walt's "ability", and maybe Hurley's "luck". As you say, Rose's fear of flying; but also Walt not wanting to go to LA; probably Kate thinking the same, and wishing for once she could stop running (think Jack in the Pilot "You're not running now", and the look on her face); Jack not wanting to have to face his family, perhaps. Maybe it all just came together.
Yes, yes, yes! Think about it -- this also explains why Desmond failing to push the button brought down the plane! The shield kept the Island's influence contained. When it began to falter, the Island started manifesting their collective fears and desires. Kablammo!
And can the island form people too? Well, that's where it all started. We "know" the island / smokey / someone caused Yemi to come into being, taken direct from Eko's sub-conscious, so, from that, I wondered if other things on the island had come into being in the same way.
Right but Eko seemed to recognize it wasn't really his brother -- just something pretending to be. Desmond really seems to be Desmond. The big clue (ala Solaris) is that his memories are his own. There's no one we've met on the Island whose memories could form the basis for Desmond's flashbacks.

bigmouth >
Yes, yes, yes! Think about it -- this also explains why Desmond failing to push the button brought down the plane! The shield kept the Island's influence contained. When it began to falter, the Island started manifesting their collective fears and desires. Kablammo!


Hey, bm,
I think we've got something here.
I had just been thinking of the people on the plane and what might have been going through their mind, and that Walt might have been the catalyst that turned those memories, fears and desires into a reality. But yeah, of course, it was more likely the island itself, or whatever power is hidden within the island, that took those thoughts and mixed them (putting them on the same "wavelength" as you've been saying on your Pearl thread) and then put the whole thing into overdrive.

I always think that Lost likes to show us small examples of things that might be going on on a grander scale, and there was that time that Locke gave Boone his wacky paste and later asked "Is that what it made you see?". So that sort of might be what's going on in the big picture.

What I wonder though is to what extent?
Was the island itself brought into being?
Was the island there, but all the Dharma stuff was created by this "Kablammo" moment?
Or was Dharma already there, perhaps responsible for some "technology" that can make all this happen, and it's just the details that were brought into being?

The Desmond stuff is cool too. As I've always said on Was the Crash Planned? (vers. 42) (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=63806) I don't think Desmond caused the plane to come down, only for it to be able to enter the island area. But, of course, that brings us back to the question of was that stuff real anyway? I mean, did it really happen, or was it just "created" by this "Kablammo" incident?

I know there's a clear answer here, but I'm not seeing it right now.

Some thoughts off the top of my head . . .
If we assume Desmond's arrival was real, then somehow he was "allowed" to enter the island area, etc. So, was that a 108 failure, or Inman deliberately letting him in?
But, more interesting, is it coincidence that flight 815 had Walt, who is apparently able to make things happen, and Desmond apparently has the ability to see the future?

We know we've also got the big incident in 1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985), could that have been a major reality change or something? The letters marked on the blastdoor map are AH/MDG. AH, everyone assumes is Alvar Hanso, but not necessarily. A world event maybe? Perhaps that's why Ben and co. follow the news? To see if anything has been changed.






__________________________________________________ ___

Further "confirmation" just in . . .


According to the Spoilers section, an official source has given a press release about some upcoming episodes and Hurley is going to find a smashed-up car on the island.

I think we're supposed to be seeing a Locke ep soon, and rumours are rife that we're going to see how he ended up in a wheelchair. I'm putting my money on the car on the island being the same one that was in the accident that caused his paralysis.

But either way, a car on the island.

Wow, I just wikied Day Break and that really is Groundhog Day - the Detective Series.

If anything, though, I'd imagine such a story being included in a Lost hiatus show would rule out the possibility of something similar happening within Lost, wouldn't it?
I mean I don't know how American TV works, but it strikes me they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to do something like that.

I don't know. Maybe the opposite is true, somehow, and it really is a clue. I suppose by the time they finish Lost and explain the mystery no-one's going to remember Day Break anyway. Or maybe one of the Lost writers saw Day Break and called ABC and said, "Are you crazy? - That's the Lost ending!" and that's why it got canned.

Yeah thinking about it, it probably does rule it out....although they are screening the new previews during Grey's Anatomy, and I don't actually watch it, but i've heard about the love triangles that are very similar to Lost :eek: he he just kidding! :biggrin:

I've been thinking about "the loop" some more (and I decided to watch Groundhog Day again - so long since I saw that, and it is such a cool film), and I reckon most people wouldn't associate a potential "loop" in Lost with this Day Break show, because although the loops would be similar, Day Break is more like Groundhog Day, where the loop goes full circle every day, while this idea of Lost would be, for example, every 108 days.

So, we've got Hurley's "The loop, dude, the loop", and I recently read somewhere (I think bigmouth said it) that the working title for Lost was "The Circle".
Could it be that every time there's an "arrival" the Island re-invents itself?

There was one line from the Season 3 opener that has always bugged me : Ben's "Don't get involved".
I know there are numerous interpretations, but I always took it as a sign that Ben knew there would be madness over there, but that it had nothing to do with them.
Might that comment be a clue to this sort of idea?

We know TPTB love Stephen King, and we have the hell references (Cerberus and Underworld) well Stephen King once said that "Hell is repetition".

I've been thinking about "the loop" some more (and I decided to watch Groundhog Day again - so long since I saw that, and it is such a cool film), and I reckon most people wouldn't associate a potential "loop" in Lost with this Day Break show, because although the loops would be similar, Day Break is more like Groundhog Day, where the loop goes full circle every day, while this idea of Lost would be, for example, every 108 days.

So, we've got Hurley's "The loop, dude, the loop", and I recently read somewhere (I think bigmouth said it) that the working title for Lost was "The Circle".
Could it be that every time there's an "arrival" the Island re-invents itself?

There was one line from the Season 3 opener that has always bugged me : Ben's "Don't get involved".
I know there are numerous interpretations, but I always took it as a sign that Ben knew there would be madness over there, but that it had nothing to do with them.
Might that comment be a clue to this sort of idea?

We know TPTB love Stephen King, and we have the hell references (Cerberus and Underworld) well Stephen King once said that "Hell is repetition".
Luc: Have you read the Dark Tower series? I don't want to give away the ending, but for those who are familiar, the idea of an endless loop is highly relevant. I wonder if this connects at all with reincarnation.

On a tangential note, I'm really pissed they cancelled Daybreak...

As a kid I used to love going to my Dad's Encyclopedia Britannica, grabbing a volume randomly and just skimming through for articles that looked interesting. These days I love doing the same with Wiki, and that's probably why I love this board so much - so many links to articles waiting to be read.

Anyway, going link by link, page by page through some Wiki "Time" stuff, I stumbled upon this :
"- All You Zombies -" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22)
The storyline is crazy, but here's the Wiki synopsis :


It tells the story of a young man who is taken back in time and tricked into impregnating his younger, female self (before he underwent a sex change), and who turns out to be the offspring of that very union, with the paradoxical result that he is both his own mother and father. In fact, as it turns out, all the major characters in the story are the same person, at different stages of her/his life.


So, there's no obvious Lost link, except, and I know this is silly, but I can't get it out of my head, "Zombies". And I keep wondering if something, not quite so wacky is going to happen in Lost. I mean, who didn't wonder if Adam and Eve are going to turn out to be Jack and Kate?

Oh, and bm, no, the only King book I've ever read was The Shining, and that was years and years ago. I tend to read recent classics rather than modern literature. But, surprise surprise, I've Wikied most of King's books just to see if there were any Lost clues. The big one I've seen so far was Dreamcatcher and its links to my Soul Catcher thread - I mentioned it there a few weeks ago. Oh, and The Stand, obviously.
The "hell" quote I posted earlier came from another King page on Wiki. A short story with a great title : "That Feeling, You Can Only Say What It Is In French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Feeling%2C_You_Can_Only_Say_What_It_Is_in_Fre nch)". A couple being made to relive everything over and over as their own personal hell.

Getting back to the original thread premise a moment, I was thinking about this possibility that things were WILLED into being, and a very simple and obvious example I had overlooked might be Locke's ability to walk. Could it be so simple as that? Locke's biggest wish was to be able to walk, and so that's what happened.

Another one I've been thinking about is the way Alex seems to be such a deadly shot with her catapult, and the other Others seem so deadly with those rock things they throw - could it be that they've simply mastered what Walt was doing when he pictured the knife hitting the tree in "his mind's eye"? Perhaps this "something" about the island plays with these wishes and probabilities, and the Others know it and use it.

I think this is a really interesting theory. The explanations are very good and i understand them. Especiallly the heiroglyphics and claires song...hmmm. I could picture this being the answer to everything. But i think that the answer will be something no one could have thought about. Good theory though!:)

"- All You Zombies -" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22)
No relevance AFAICT, but Heinlein could sure knock 'em out.

Another one I've been thinking about is the way Alex seems to be such a deadly shot with her catapult, and the other Others seem so deadly with those rock things they throw - could it be that they've simply mastered what Walt was doing when he pictured the knife hitting the tree in "his mind's eye"?
What Walt was doing was impressing Locke with his newfound ability to throw a knife into a tree that had a powerful electromagnet in it, switched on by someone watching the scene. Like Leisure Suit Larry cheating at horseshoe throwing.

Robert

lovelost >
I think this is a really interesting theory. The explanations are very good and i understand them. Especiallly the heiroglyphics and claires song...hmmm. I could picture this being the answer to everything. But i think that the answer will be something no one could have thought about. Good theory though!:)


Thanks. But that seems a rather pessimistic philosophy, to assume that the answer will be "something no one could have thought about". I'd like to think even myself alone, I've got a REASONABLE chance of getting close to the correct answer or answers. And you mutliply that by the number of people using this board, and I'd say it's not just a possibility, it's a probability that someone at some point has hit the nail on the head.
Even just in terms of monkeys on typewriters that will eventually type a Shakespearean Sonnet, we've got to have hit upon it at some point - the thing is it's probably a thread someone started that got no more than 5 responses.


Dr. Suds >
No relevance AFAICT, but Heinlein could sure knock 'em out.


As I said myself, the only vague connection was their obsession with "the Zombie Season", and, from what little I've gathered on their personalities, even if this isn't the one, I wouldn't put it past them to be waving a clue of some kind around under our noses in just such a way.
The story itself (- All You Zombies -) could obviously have no dierct link, I was just wondering in terms of it, from what I've read, being considered one of the earliest works on this type of temporal paradox, and therefore a sort of epitome for that story-type.


Dr. Suds >
What Walt was doing was impressing Locke with his newfound ability to throw a knife into a tree that had a powerful electromagnet in it, switched on by someone watching the scene. Like Leisure Suit Larry cheating at horseshoe throwing.


You've got such a strange view of the show, and yet you're so convinced. You speak, or write, in such a way that it makes you sound like an authority, and before you write "Hey, Dr. S., you're a nutter", you stop and think "Hmmm, maybe he knows something". But, right now, I'm afraid I'm erring on the side of you being a nutter.

So, go on, explain, why would "they" do that? What purpose would there be to making Walt, or Locke, think he (Walt) was "special"?
And when did they put the electromagnets inside all the trees? Or did they know which tree Locke would be using? Aha, I've got it, you're of the opinion that the trees ALL contain electromagnets and that's how the Smokey "illusion" is performed. Am I right?
But either way, Walt - Special, why?

Oh, and I hope you don't take the "nutter" line seriously, I'm just joking around. I always read your posts keenly, even though a lot of them sounds "nuts" to me, because of the intelligent way in which you express your "nutty" ideas.

What purpose would there be to making Walt, or Locke, think he (Walt) was "special"?
The purpose was not to make anyone think Walt was special, but to make Locke think Locke was special. Season 1 was full of incidents arranged to build up Locke's ego & confidence as a teacher, leader, and lucky guy. In this case, it was arranged to make Locke think he had great "touch" as a teacher -- that he just had to coach Walt once, and whammo, instant knife thrower!

And when did they put the electromagnets inside all the trees? Or did they know which tree Locke would be using?
They made that little voice in Locke's head say, "Use this tree."

It also happens to be consistent with the UK Channel 4 dance video, which showed Locke as an orchestra conductor, and then later revealed Walt to be a conductor too, as if he were conducting Locke. However, my hunch is that the Channel 4 video was made without spoiler knowledge, so just coincidental; still, it might be with knowledge.

Robert

The purpose was not to make anyone think Walt was special, but to make Locke think Locke was special. Season 1 was full of incidents arranged to build up Locke's ego & confidence as a teacher, leader, and lucky guy. In this case, it was arranged to make Locke think he had great "touch" as a teacher -- that he just had to coach Walt once, and whammo, instant knife thrower!
Doc: Interesting notion but what about Boone, who remained incompetent despite Locke's best efforts?

Also, we've got Walt's "ability" to thow dice and get whatever number he wishes for.
That could be >
a) Dr. Suds' electro-magnets
b) Walt really is "special"
c) Another example of the Island fulfilling wishes

I'm really into this idea now that that is how the Others are such keen shots with their catapults and rocks, that they know how to wish things into being, at least on a small scale. They are aware of the Island's version of the "Infinite Improbability Drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improbability_drive)" and they therefore know how to use it to some degree.

Not really that tough. The problem with trauma therapy is that in order for it to be effective the patient has to be able to reexperience the cause of trauma which is traumatic in itself and most people are unwilling to do it. By having this indirect means of reexperiencing the event they are still traumatized somewhat but not quite as much and the expectation is that they might adjust and actually face their experience. Here is one example that shows what I think is a prototype of what is happening. VR Therapy for Combat Stress (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4806921)I agree, LS, but dumping these people on a remote island is very intense. I have heard of several types of therapies for people with past traumas, including EMDR. With EMDR, the patient relives the experiences with the help of the therapist...http://www.emdr-therapy.com/. I suppose that could be what the Losties are doing, but I don't think that the Island is intentionally about therapy, per se, although the Losties are kind of experiencing therapy in some ways...
100%
Also, we've got Walt's "ability" to thow dice and get whatever number he wishes for.
That could be >
a) Dr. Suds' electro-magnets
b) Walt really is "special"
c) Another example of the Island fulfilling wishes

I'm really into this idea now that that is how the Others are such keen shots with their catapults and rocks, that they know how to wish things into being, at least on a small scale. They are aware of the Island's version of the "Infinite Improbability Drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improbability_drive)" and they therefore know how to use it to some degree.IMHO, the magnetic properties of the Island are powerful, but I don't think that they are the end all-be all behind Walt's "Special powers". I think that it's a possibility that the magnetic properties of the Island enhanced or helped bring out Walt's special abilities - and those of other Losties. I also think that some of the Losties had special abilities before they landed on the Island, but may not have been aware of them. The whole thing is somewhat circular. The Losties may have special abilities. The Island may have magnetic properties that enhance the Losties' special abilities. These two things probably work together to create different things that the Losties want to happen. How often does this happen, though? How often can it happen? Is the Island a thinking being? What does it think about the Losties and what's happening? Not new questions, but interesting ones...

I'm really into this idea now that that is how the Others are such keen shots with their catapults and rocks, that they know how to wish things into being, at least on a small scale. They are aware of the Island's version of the "Infinite Improbability Drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improbability_drive)" and they therefore know how to use it to some degree.
luc: I've been thinking about this analogy too, all the moreso after reading Dan Simmons' books Iliad and Olympos. One of the more interesting aspects is the pseudo-scientific explanation for the warrior Achilles' legendary invulnerability. Basically, the gods warped the quantum probabilities surrounding him, making it nearly impossible to kill him. There's also references to black holes having a similar distortive effect on probabilities, and Damon did refer to the phenomenon behind the concrete in Swan as being like a black hole.

Do you suppose Dharma was trying to influence the probabilities associated with humanity's imminent demise?

I agree, LS, but dumping these people on a remote island is very intense. I have heard of several types of therapies for people with past traumas, including EMDR. With EMDR, the patient relives the experiences with the help of the therapist...http://www.emdr-therapy.com/. I suppose that could be what the Losties are doing, but I don't think that the Island is intentionally about therapy, per se, although the Losties are kind of experiencing therapy in some ways...


EMDR sounds quite interesting, I haven't heard about it before but then again I haven't heard of VR Therapy (http://www.vrphobia.com/therapy.htm) either until I started exploring what Lost might be about. While I think that VR Therapy is a main theme on the island I think that the overall show is more about exploring the practical uses of Virtual Reality technology and how it can be applied to solve various real world problems. For example, Otherville may be an example of a virtual community of people who are disabled through either injury or disease or some genetic disorder. I guess this would be an example of utopian social experiment. Or genetic engineering of the polar bears to adapt them to tropical environment by creating a genetic based computer model of polar bears and inserting them into a virtual reality tropical environment and accelerating their evolution to see how their genes adapt and using this information to modify real polar bears. But mainly in the case of the Losties, how various traumatic problems can be handled in a VR environment. For example dealing with multiple personality disorder by creating a different virtual character for each personality so that the core personality can interact with their other personalities. I cover this in the Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505) thread.

Anyway, maybe it's time to change our perspective about what the island is and what it's all about.

EMDR sounds quite interesting, I haven't heard about it before but then again I haven't heard of VR Therapy (http://www.vrphobia.com/therapy.htm) either until I started exploring what Lost might be about. While I think that VR Therapy is a main theme on the island I think that the overall show is more about exploring the practical uses of Virtual Reality technology and how it can be applied to solve various real world problems. For example, Otherville may be an example of a virtual community of people who are disabled through either injury or disease or some genetic disorder. I guess this would be an example of utopian social experiment. Or genetic engineering of the polar bears to adapt them to tropical environment by creating a genetic based computer model of polar bears and inserting them into a virtual reality tropical environment and accelerating their evolution to see how their genes adapt and using this information to modify real polar bears. But mainly in the case of the Losties, how various traumatic problems can be handled in a VR environment. For example dealing with multiple personality disorder by creating a different virtual character for each personality so that the core personality can interact with their other personalities. I cover this in the Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505) thread.

Anyway, maybe it's time to change our perspective about what the island is and what it's all about.I like the idea that Smokey might be being controlled in a VR or video game type scenario, although that does seem to trivialize the deaths that have happened via Smokey (Is Mr. Eko's the only death that we definitely know was at the hands of Smokey?). I wonder if this happens in the room that Mrs. Klugh talked about and the kids are controlling Smokey via remote control, like a video game? With regards to the Losties and different personalities, do you think it might come to close to the movie "Identity"?

I know LS doesn't agree, but for me the Spoiler I posted over on Was the Crash Planned? means that the VR Therapy option has been ruled out.


The Spoiler was that Michael Emerson said in an interview that we'd soon be seeing why certain Losties "were brought to the Island". He was obviously (because of the timing) referring to Jack and the tumor. So, for me , that means it can't all be therapy or VR. The island has to be real and certain Losties really were selected to be taken there.


And also TPTB have specifically referenced "Identity" and ruled out that the show has anything to do with it.

I like the idea that Smokey might be being controlled in a VR or video game type scenario, although that does seem to trivialize the deaths that have happened via Smokey (Is Mr. Eko's the only death that we definitely know was at the hands of Smokey?). I wonder if this happens in the room that Mrs. Klugh talked about and the kids are controlling Smokey via remote control, like a video game? With regards to the Losties and different personalities, do you think it might come to close to the movie "Identity"?

I think MPD is just one example but each of the Losties has a different trauma related problem they are dealing with. For example Jack is dealing with False Memory Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory) as I describe in Jack's Story (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=44734).

I don't think the deaths are trivialized in that each persons death is part of anothers therapy and it has a real life effect on those people. Like Boones death reenacted Shannons fathers death in an accident and Shannons death effected AL and Sayid and AL's death palyed in Michale and Walts therapy and Libby's death reenacted Hurleys experience with death and Eko's death will probably play a role in Locke's therapy. So the deaths are meaningful in a very real sense, after all in the real world all we know about death is how it effects others. However I don't think that this is a game, as Yemi said: "There is important work going on here".

I know LS doesn't agree, but for me the Spoiler I posted over on Was the Crash Planned? means that the VR Therapy option has been ruled out.


The Spoiler was that Michael Emerson said in an interview that we'd soon be seeing why certain Losties "were brought to the Island". He was obviously (because of the timing) referring to Jack and the tumor. So, for me , that means it can't all be therapy or VR. The island has to be real and certain Losties really were selected to be taken there.

luc: Good point but what if one is related to the other? That is, VR therapy is necessary because the Island allows thoughts to manifest -- your unresolved issues come to life. Maybe they weren't brought to the Island for therapy but now that they're here, therapy is required to prevent our Losties' subconscious manifestations from getting out of control...

I know LS doesn't agree, but for me the Spoiler I posted over on Was the Crash Planned? means that the VR Therapy option has been ruled out.


The Spoiler was that Michael Emerson said in an interview that we'd soon be seeing why certain Losties "were brought to the Island". He was obviously (because of the timing) referring to Jack and the tumor. So, for me , that means it can't all be therapy or VR. The island has to be real and certain Losties really were selected to be taken there.


And also TPTB have specifically referenced "Identity" and ruled out that the show has anything to do with it.I agree with you, Luc, in terms of the Island's main purpose not being therapy for the Losties. I think that the Island is really there, although some of the things that the Losties have seen might not really be there - if that makes sense - and have appeared due to hallucinations or the Island or Smokey creating these images somehow. Therapy is probably going to be an end result, like we will see how much some of the Losties have changed, for the good, as a result of being on the Island, despite all the hardship. On a side note, I like the idea of the kids controlling some things on the Island, although the idea of the kids controlling Smokey and eventually killing Eko and possibly other people bothers me. If we are to think that the kids are in a better place, per Goodwin, and kids are the only real human blank slates, it doesn't seem right that they'd be killing someone or even tormenting them via Smokey. Aren't they supposed to be the Good Ones? I think that the kids are being held in a sort of captivity and that they don't have that much control of what is going on in their lives, even if some of them have special powers...

In terms of Jack, Ben and the tumor, I think that Jack ending up on the Island wasn't as miraculous as Ben's "You fell from the sky..." story. I think, as many people have said in the past, that the Losties, or maybe just some of them, are on the Island for a reason. However, wouldn't it be strange if Jack not being on Jacob's List meant that he wasn't one of the people that Jacob and the Others wanted to land on the Island? I am also one of those people that thinks that the plane probably was meant to land on the Island, but it ended up crashing on it accidentally. The ultimate question, though, and probably my very first question, is: How did the Losties that survived the plane crash walk away from the plane crash?

I agree that the Losties' personal demons are an issue that needs to be resolved, and quite possibly as a direct part of whatever it is they're going to need to do to get off the island, escape the cycle, whatever.
I just don't agree that that is WHY they're there, as Junie has just said.

I know LS doesn't agree, but for me the Spoiler I posted over on Was the Crash Planned? means that the VR Therapy option has been ruled out.


The Spoiler was that Michael Emerson said in an interview that we'd soon be seeing why certain Losties "were brought to the Island". He was obviously (because of the timing) referring to Jack and the tumor. So, for me , that means it can't all be therapy or VR. The island has to be real and certain Losties really were selected to be taken there.


And also TPTB have specifically referenced "Identity" and ruled out that the show has anything to do with it.

Ok, I listened to the whole interview and frankly it wasn't all that clear that he was talking about the main island or the Alcatraz island where Kate, Sawyer and Jack were brought.

But even if it was about the main island:

It doesn't mean that other eople were not brought there for other reasons and those reasons are related to their therapy. In Jack's case the therapy is to recreate Sarah's operation and they are using Ben for that. Since it's VR his tumor was created for the purose of the operation and Jack was brought there to operate. Kate/Sawyer were brought there for other reasons because they have a different problem they are dealing with and the same is true for every person. The therapy is different so on the surface they are there for different reasons. But so far that we have seen they are all victims of trauma with different symptoms.

I agree that this is nothing like Identity but that doesn't mean that at least one person can't be dealing with MPD.

Getting back on topic. We've got these "manifestations" (Eko's Beechcraft, Hurley's numbers, Shannon's song lyrics, etc.) (Oh, and I also thought of another interesting one the other day - when Locke sees the hatch computer he says he hasn't seen one of those in 20 years, but he HAD seen one before - could that be where the computer came from?).
So these are "things".
We've also seen "people" - Yemi, Christian, Dave, etc.
But there are also "actions" - Walt's knife and dice throwing, the rain stopping, the Others and their rocks, and the very survival of the crash.

So the question I see is, Is all of this a result of wish fulfillment or luck?

Wish fulfillment :
There is a power at work on the island (either the island itself, a technological device, or people with this ability) that can read the Losties' thoughts, memories, fears and desires, and manifest them on the island. Either in reality (the people and things really are there on the island), or as an illusion.

Luck :
The power at work doesn't read and then manifest, it just plays with probabilities.

Taking one example. There was a computer, and six numbers had to be entered, and the numbers could have been anything. Are they Hurley's numbers because someone or something wanted them to be Hurley's numbers, as part of a game or test or whatever? OR, are they Hurley's numbers because there was a one in a million chance of them just happening to be Hurley's numbers, and something plays with this probability and the numbers just pop in? This idea would also tie in with their survival of the crash. Just did a search on the word "luck", and it's been said 66 times so far. It's a common word, I know, but there's certainly some empthasis on it. Walt said his dad said he was the luckiest person in the world, the Orientation films end with Good Luck, Locke tells Claire he believes in Luck.

Is Luck really just the fulfillment of Fate?

I was going to word it as Fate - there are obviously a lot of Fate references in the show.
I remember on het_genie's Fate thread (speaking of which, it's been a while since I've seen him around the Fuselage) one of the things I suggested was that there might be an element of Fate vs. Luck. That someone or something is controlling, or trying to control, certain outcomes, but that maybe Fate, or particularly Destiny, can't be altered. A clear example of this would be the way Hurley seemed destined to board the plane in spite of all the bad luck, which in hindsight would have been good luck, trying to prevent him from boarding.
There was also Sun's suggestion that they are all being punished by Fate.

I saw something interesting on Wiki the other day. It's called the Predestination Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox). It basically suggests that even changing events in the past through time travel can't override destiny. If you do something in the past it's because you were destined to do it in the first place.

I was going to word it as Fate - there are obviously a lot of Fate references in the show.
I remember on het_genie's Fate thread (speaking of which, it's been a while since I've seen him around the Fuselage) one of the things I suggested was that there might be an element of Fate vs. Luck. That someone or something is controlling, or trying to control, certain outcomes, but that maybe Fate, or particularly Destiny, can't be altered. A clear example of this would be the way Hurley seemed destined to board the plane in spite of all the bad luck, which in hindsight would have been good luck, trying to prevent him from boarding.
There was also Sun's suggestion that they are all being punished by Fate.

I saw something interesting on Wiki the other day. It's called the Predestination Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox). It basically suggests that even changing events in the past through time travel can't override destiny. If you do something in the past it's because you were destined to do it in the first place.This is a very cool topic, IMHO. I like the "PP" theory; it kind of suggests that no matter what roads you travel, you will always end up where you were destined to be. Not much Free Will here. Well, I suppose, depending upon your perspective, there could be Free Will along the way being exercised, but not in terms of where you end up ultimately. Day to day Free Will would exist. Kind of like we all die, but what we do in our lives is up to us. If you took this theory too seriously, you could probably go insane, saying, "Why should I do this or that, I'm only going to end up where Fate wants me to be..." The one interesting point in that comment is that you don't know what your ultimate Fate is...unless you're Locke, I suppose...;)

Or Desmond, who, in accordance with his Dickens, may know when he's going to die.

Free will, Destiny . . .
as the Beatles said - "There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be".
I think, basically, Destiny doesn't eliminate Free Will, it just "predicts" it.
If you're in a certain situation and you do a certain thing then that is simply a result of who you are at that moment in time - the sum of your DNA, experiences, memories, etc. So if you were destined to do that, it's not because you had no choice, it's because everything that has happened to you in your life prior to that moment was necessary to make you the person you are.

But it's interesting that you mention Free Will, because from what Juliet said that is obviously an issue on the Island too. Most people thought that was a reference to Ben's tyranny, but perhaps it's got more to do with something like this.

The Spoiler was that Michael Emerson said in an interview that we'd soon be seeing why certain Losties "were brought to the Island". He was obviously (because of the timing) referring to Jack and the tumor. So, for me , that means it can't all be therapy or VR. The island has to be real and certain Losties really were selected to be taken there.



I don't know what VR means.

Talk about pseudo-science! The crash planned? "certain Losties....?"
If -for example - the crash WAS planned I would love to see how they could seat everyone so that only certain ones would live and certain ones would die. Thats insane!
It's a plane crash...think about the beach. Was the guy who got pulled through the spinning turbine supposed to live?

If people were brought there for a reason...To me it's more realistic that they selected a Group of individuals with a common factor hoping some would survive. So what is a common denominator of the Losties - other than them all being liars/murderers/sinners except Jack (and in most respects, Locke, aka the two leaders)
Sorry if I'm a bit off subject for this thread.
It's funny the Free Will vs. Destiny thing. Growing up in a Catholic church, I always was questioning this. If everything is planned...how can our feelings and wills be real and true to us and our experiences? Is there several sets of destinies that could play out? How do accidents, and incidents, affect the plan?

It's like a short story I read by Ray Bradbury A Sound Of Thunder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder)
He goes back in time and accidently steps on a butterfly...he comes back and the entire English language, and the air, are different - but by just a little bit.
So does that mean he screwed up destiny? Are things set in stone? Or are they molded to "perfection" by our environment and actions?

I believe (for the show as well) that there is a path...there is a destination...but things could be completely skewed and different than what was expected by the time they reach it.
100%
Or Desmond, who, in accordance with his Dickens, may know when he's going to die.


this is very interesting.

annie_monica >
I don't know what VR means.


VR = Virtual Reality. That talk was about an idea of LostSanity's that Lost is basically a VR world created to provide therapy to help the Losties get over their different traumas. Personally, although I can see a lot of validity in the ideas, I don't agree, myself. However, as a lot of the areas his / her ideas cover overlap with mine, every now and then there's a bit of a debate about whether it's possible, etc.

Re-reading these recent posts about Free Will vs Destiny, and Juniebun says "no matter what roads you travel" and annie_monica says "I believe there is a path", it reminded me of Locke's "all paths lead here" when he wanted to get into the hatch, and how he was very much of the opinion that his Destiny was waiting for him inside.


Going back to the original point again, I think perhaps the best episode for analysing what it is exactly that the island, or someone on the island, DOES, is Maternity Leave. I re-watched it this morning and the nursery provides some serious food for thought.

Basically, we have several levels of evidence that something strange is going on.

1st > Where did they get those nursery items from?

2nd > How did they know about "Catch a Falling Star"? Or was it just Luck / Fate / Coincidence?

3rd > When Claire goes back the room is clearly not how she remembered it. Is this simply because they've emptied the room, or because it was never really how she was being made to see it? "Perception" / "Magnetic Resonance ImagINing")
It could be that they emptied the room, for starters, but why would they? Were they short of furniture at Othersville? But also look at the condition of the walls, for example. Claire left the nursery on Day 27 and went back on Day 59. These before (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=980&pos=368) and after (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=980&pos=616) pics look like more than 5 weeks of aging - maybe the nursery was already in the condition it was in in the after pic, but somehow Claire was made to see it as she saw it in the before pic.
The only thing she "used" was the rocking chair (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=980&pos=507), and that was the only thing there when she went back. Could the rest of it have been an illusion? But then we've got the patches of faded paint where, apparently, the animal decorations used to be.

4th > The fact that EITHER some of it was real, or the "illusion" can be maintained, as evidenced by the fact that the blue sock she knitted for Aaron was still there and she later gave it to Aaron. This, of course, is very reminiscent of Hurley's Dave shoe.

5th > When Claire asks Ethan where it all came from his response is : "I'd love to explain everything to you, Claire, but I'm afraid it would be a little overwhelming right now."
"A little overwhelming" means there has to be something going on - of course, it could be any number of "overwhelming" explanations, but it proves the situation isn't normal.

Getting back to the original thread premise a moment, I was thinking about this possibility that things were WILLED into being, and a very simple and obvious example I had overlooked might be Locke's ability to walk. Could it be so simple as that? Locke's biggest wish was to be able to walk, and so that's what happened.


Would also explain why Locke occasionally briefly loses the ability again - usually when he has been unconscious or subject to stress, in other words, distracted from believing he can walk.

Something that may or may not be connected to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation

"In spirituality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality) and personal development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_development), including groups such as Theosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy), an affirmation is a form of autosuggestion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosuggestion) in which a statement of a desirable intention or condition of the world or the mind is deliberately meditated on or repeated in order to implant it in the mind. Affirmation could be viewed positively as a mobilization of one's inner resources, or negatively as a kind of self-induced brainwashing. Believers advise a general approach to self-improving statements; for instance, "I am making more room in my life for success every day" is considered a much wiser affirmation than "I will win the lottery today!" Affirmations are supposedly an effective method of programming or reprogramming the unconscious mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind). They appear to be most effective when repeated in a quiet and restful state of mind and body. Other groups which use affirmations and "decrees", a related activity, include Church Universal and Triumphant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Clare_Prophet), and the I AM Activity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_AM_Activity),as well as Alcoholics Anonymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous).

Perhaps the most often used and well-known affirmation is the word "Amen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen),"which can be translated simply, "so be it," affirming the truth of whatever was written or said immediately prior. While often used to conclude prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer), the word itself is neutral as to its context and exemplifies a logical affirmation more than a spiritual one."

Just a thought on the apparent link between faith and action in Lost.

jabboy,
Thanks for that.
The "amen" / "So be it" thing reminded me of Star Trek The Next Generation, and how Picard always said "Make it so". Perhaps a clue that they really are all on the holodeck !

But seriously, Locke being able to walk could be the biggest clue that it's all about willing things to happen - he seemed to lose the ability to walk when he started to doubt his "purpose". And there's also the fact that his losing the ability to talk would appear to have been purely psychological too.

Just noticed that you quote Palahniuk in your signature. Props.

VR = Virtual Reality.
Going back to the original point again, I think perhaps the best episode for analysing what it is exactly that the island, or someone on the island, DOES, is Maternity Leave. I re-watched it this morning and the nursery provides some serious food for thought.


2nd > How did they know about "Catch a Falling Star"? Or was it just Luck / Fate / Coincidence?


Thank you so much for explaning VR, feel kind of silly now heh:lookarn:

I agree very much that Maternity Leave, to date, could be considered one of the most revealing episodes.
Interesting that she may be imagining her memories skewed. I believe the room they return to is the same. But why did they leave some things behind?
Catch a Falling Star always got to me, as well as the plane mobile (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=980&pos=378) above the baby's crib that says Oceanic, just like in her dream.
Another thing that bothered me was why Locke was in her dream in Raised By Another. Sorry if it's been discussed on another thread, but perhaps Locke knows "danger surrounds this baby?" Especially in S2 when he becomes closer with Claire.
Locke losing his abilities - and he had been able to talk before the island - shows he is extremely perceptive and sometimes he doesn't know where it's leading him. The small leaps of faith he takes, the things he opens his mind/body/soul to, allow him to both see things clearly and be controlled at the same time.
Now he knows Benry's tactics because he opened up to him, was conned by him, and now he has knowledge as to how his mind works.
Although it could have turned out much worse, and he could be stuck with JKS. But Jack didn't fall for Benry at the hatch and he's imprisoned. These Others - who were going to kill Claire after they cut her baby out of her according to Alex - really are "animals." Any one-up on them would help.

I think its interesting how Benry asks Locke who's in charge, and Jack asks Juliet who's in charge, and both responses are "we make decisions together."
Also, speaking of "Coincidence" vs. Fate, it's coincidental Alex and Danielle brushed so close to each other in that ep.

I do not believe an illuson was being put on for Claire because if they were going to kill her why would they need to lie to her?
The most interesting part is how the Others wanted the baby so badly before it was born from Claire.

P.S. Lucidity, like the Palahniuk quote as well, love his works, plus he extremely handsome in person (sorry):blshing1::in_love:

annie_monica >
I do not believe an illuson was being put on for Claire because if they were going to kill her why would they need to lie to her?
The most interesting part is how the Others wanted the baby so badly before it was born from Claire.


That would APPEAR to be the case, on both counts (that they planned to cut the baby from her, and that they wanted the baby), but I'm not entirely convinced.

I think, first off, Claire's time in the Staff was a set-up on many levels - the way Ethan and Tom had that discussion about the list right in front of her. It reminds me a lot of Colleen's funeral when Ben and Juliet do the same thing. It could be bad writing, but it just strikes me as a very infantile mistake, especially for these people who seem so in control. Next, that Alex was able to get in there and get Claire out, when Claire was being far from quiet, without anyone seeing or hearing. Then, once Claire was outside and shouting for Ethan that they couldn't catch up with her, a heavily pregnant woman. But also, as you mention, why would they put that nursery stuff in there, and, apparently, wipe her memory, somehow, if they planned to let her die on the operating table.
Call me paranoid, but I don't buy any of it. In the same way, even after seeing the promos for the upcoming eps, I don't buy Ben's operation.

In summary, I don't think they were planning to kill Claire, and that's why they created the illusion. Oh, and the before and after pics, the wall is definitely a lot dirtier than it was before, and there are marks and imperfections. The room wasn't only empty, in my opinion, it wasn't how Claire remembered it at all.
And I think Alex was given the rôle of "saving Claire" - if she really did set Claire free against the will of the Others, why was she still working with them at "the line they mustn't cross"?

But, in any case, the most important thing, I think, is the fact that their memories appear to have been wiped somehow - Claire was on some kind of drugs and she did regain partial memory, but how is it that Charlie couldn't remember anything either?



Oh, and a couple more things for my ever-growing list of Island madness . . .

Eko's Jesus stick - if the island isn't making things appear, etc., how is it possible that just as Locke wakes up, the Jesus stick falls from the tree?

And an interesting one, I think, it occurred to me that there are two key moments, (pardon the pun) in Locke's life that have been determined by keys. The key that his father gave him to get the money was, basically, the cause of the end of his relationship with Helen. And then we have the hatch key, and how it "ends" everything in the Swan. I know it's not the same result, exactly, and the second key wasn't even used by Locke, but it might be another example of this Swan set-up being built around the Losties.

I think, first off, Claire's time in the Staff was a set-up on many levels

I've never bought the nursery/delivery room charade either, and I'm still wary about Alex.

The surgical tableau, imo, was staged. We've since seen that Ben & co. aren't exactly eager to perform medical procedures. Kate's finding theatrical costumes in that particular hatch was a clue, too. I think the conversation about the "list" was real, though, and Ethan had brought Claire in earlier than planned.

My pet theory is that Claire was born on the island and spent her toddler years there. Her behavior, speech, and reactions during the fb were consistently child-like.
The new/old nursery disconnect was caused by her drug-addled memories of her abduction getting mixed with her toddler memories. Claire had been in that nursery as a toddler, when it was new, and it was there that she first heard the song. In actuality the nursery WAS aged and shabby during her kidnapping. Ben & Co -(who might not have been the original creators and users of the ML hatch and the nursery) - utilized it as a prop setting for their performance.

Claire's earlier nightmare about the crib, which some called prophetic, could have been triggered by her memories. Ditto her nightmare about the Black Rock, that she mentioned in her diary.

still thing ML is about two different time period in Claire's recollections. One when she was first on 'the island' She was still of the mind set of making the best deal for herself not the baby. Even when Ethan introduces it must be your choice, giving them the baby, its what about me for Claire. So some other buy out must have been made, I think she had the baby and they kept it. She was impregnated or implanted with another embryo and at the right time was set up on the beach with the others. Obviously they needed something from her so Ethan had to bring her back or somewhere else where the others could get it.
(how choice works out in that don't know) Whatever was needed was done and along come Alex; a rebel or a good soldier only time will tell. She drugs Claire and sets her up for the journey back to the beach.
On the Lost Media shots you can see that her rings and ring fingers change.
If the above turns out to be true, it would give more depth to Charlie's dream. That he has to find the original baby that is being raised by an Other

Claire's earlier nightmare about the crib, which some called prophetic, could have been triggered by her memories. Ditto her nightmare about the Black Rock, that she mentioned in her diary.

Interesting you recalled that. Claire's diary of he first days on the island will be so important down the road...she seemed very sunny back then. I don't think this nightmare was ever mentioned again?
Charlie has always been hesitant about telling the truth about the ongoings of the camp to Claire, since the first weeks.

I've never bought the nursery/delivery room charade either, and I'm still wary about Alex.

The surgical tableau, imo, was staged. We've since seen that Ben & co. aren't exactly eager to perform medical procedures. Kate's finding theatrical costumes in that particular hatch was a clue, too. I think the conversation about the "list" was real, though, and Ethan had brought Claire in earlier than planned.

My pet theory is that Claire was born on the island and spent her toddler years there. Her behavior, speech, and reactions during the fb were consistently child-like.
The new/old nursery disconnect was caused by her drug-addled memories of her abduction getting mixed with her toddler memories. Claire had been in that nursery as a toddler, when it was new, and it was there that she first heard the song. In actuality the nursery WAS aged and shabby during her kidnapping. Ben & Co -(who might not have been the original creators and users of the ML hatch and the nursery) - utilized it as a prop setting for their performance.

Claire's earlier nightmare about the crib, which some called prophetic, could have been triggered by her memories. Ditto her nightmare about the Black Rock, that she mentioned in her diary.

While I don't think that the nursery setting or surgery were staged, I've always thought that Claire (and Kate, and possibly a few others) spent time on the island in very early childhood. The mystery of her father, the recurrance of the song (which I also think is an allusion to some kind of meteor connection to the island's power source and possibly the real Black Rock), her dream, and possibly the importance of Aaron suggest this, I think. But I don't think they ever intended to kill Claire; I think Alex's naiivete led her to misunderstand the nature of a C-section. I think you're exactly right about her intermingled memories and the ongoing theme of memory's subjectivity and revisionism.

I continue to believe that the Black Rock (the real one that I believe is related to the anomalous properties of the island) is connected to the children somehow, and to the radio tower and its power.

On another note, I think that the word "imgtative" in the center of the crossword puzzle (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=820&pos=225) Locke was working on in Collision is a clue, along the same lines as "Magnetic Resonance Imagining." It combines "imagine/imaginative" with "imitative" and speaks to the theory here somehow, I think.

On the Lost Media shots you can see that her rings and ring fingers change.
If the above turns out to be true, it would give more depth to Charlie's dream. That he has to find the original baby that is being raised by an Other
I hope Alex isn't lying but you're right only time will tell...she did ask Michael about Clairon during the Don't Cross The Line night.

Definitely, all of Charlie's dreams, especially with his mother and Claire. The dove flying through is very symbolic of peace and higher wisdom (it is a religious symbol but also metaphoric). Dishing up lines, I'll add;
MALKIN: This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you -- danger surrounds this baby. . .

MALKIN: It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.

Lucidity you've done it again, great thread.

I think the "island" is some "location" somewhere. That is probably why no one can find it. We know Penny is looking for something, somewhere "out there". One "outside" moment that does throw a monkey wrench into all of this is the World Series win by the Red Sox. It may have been a "wish" by Jack, but it happened for real in the real world... unless Boston fans can thank Jack for erasing the Curse!

Could Damon and Carlton be thanking all of us for giving them great ideas for future stories?

lostmio >
The surgical tableau, imo, was staged. We've since seen that Ben & co. aren't exactly eager to perform medical procedures.


I hadn't thought of that. We saw all those "surgeons" in Maternity Leave, and exactly, from what we've seen from Colleen's shooting, the only one with any medical knowledge is Juliet. That would definitely suggest it was staged.
Good thinking. I'll have to post that point on my Deception thread too.


lostmio >
My pet theory is that Claire was born on the island and spent her toddler years there.


I have always wondered if the word LOST (I'm 100 % sure in the end we'll see that the title has a double meaning) might refer to "the LOST children". That they were all Dharma or something, but were dispersed around the globe, and now someone or something is trying to gather them again.
Perhaps it was a result of "the incident"? And in the same way Walt could appear in different places, something happened and all the Dharma children appeared all over the world?
I'm just writing silly thoughts off the top of my head, but, yeah, "LOST children", definitely.


coupons >
On the Lost Media shots you can see that her rings and ring fingers change.


That's the first I've heard about that. Is there a thread, or can you give us some screenshots?
It sounds really interesting - Have you all noticed how a lot of them seem to have one specific item of jewellery, etc.?

lucky4me8,
The weird thing about that crossword (I hadn't really looked before) is that most of the words are invented. It might have just been to make the Gilgamesh answer stand out, but, at that stage, it can't have been because they didn't think anyone would notice.
But look at the words - GHARE, ACOLNS, ...ISMSKEET, ...AGHR.
So, maybe the IMGTATIVE, was a clue to a related phenomenon that has always fascinated me, where you see something that is in some way incorrect but the brain corrects it automatically and you don't see the error. The classic example of this is a text in which the last word of every line is repeated as the first word of the following line, and yet the person reading the text fails to see anything wrong with it. The brain compensates. Perhaps that is what is happening on the island in a more visual sense.
I'd love to link a Wiki page, but I can't think what it's called. The other classic experiment is when a person is talking to someone, something blocks the line of vision momentarily, and then the person is totally different, but the person they are talking to doesn't even notice.

annie_monica,
Your Malkin comment reminded me of something I've always wondered - could it be that his daughter really did die, but a Sarah-style miracle was offered to him in return for getting Claire on that flight?


TestMemberSubject >
Lucidity you've done it again, great thread.


Thank you very much.


TestMemberSubject >
I think the "island" is some "location" somewhere.


Totally. As I said from Page 1, although this suggestion sounds an awful lot like the whole thing being VR, that's not what I'm thinking. I see it as a real place somewhere, just a place that's able to reflect ("Mirrors" tie-in) the fears, wishes, etc. of those who inhabit it.
Someone pointed out at the beginning that there was a Stephen King book about a house that did something similar and, of course, the house wasn't VR or imagined - it was very real, and had a very real location, it was just what happened inside that was strange. So, outside events, such as the Red Sox, would still be going on as normal. And it's not even like EVERYTHING that goes on inside has to be affected either.



Great posts everyone, thanks for the input.:41:



Ooh,
I've just had another thought. And, even if I say so myself, this is a good one :
This possibility that things on the Island were WILLED into being.
Well, there's a good chance that's how Jack fixed Sarah - that he wanted it so badly that he willed it to happen.
And then there's Ben . . .
Remember the conversation :
Jack "You want me to save your life?"
Ben "No, I want you to want to save my life."

Perhaps that's what all the charade was about. It wasn't enough for Jack to do the operation, Ben needed Jack to really WANT to "fix" him. Perhaps Jack has the ability to "will" people better - think Charlie, and how Jack appeared to, well, bring him back to life. There was some serious determination there - perhaps that's what it was.

her rings and ring fingers change.


As do her bracelets. Claire was with the others for - what? - 9-10 days?
If memory serves, the rings and bracelets switched between the two shots of the bootie she was knitting, but so did the size/shape of the bootie itself.

I took all that to be one way of showing passing time. A bootie CAN be knit in one sitting, but normally it's not.. and Claire was quite proud when she had finished the one, which to me meant it had taken her awhile. Been there, done that - but not while drugged :biggrin:.
100%
I've always thought that Claire (and Kate, and possibly a few others) spent time on the island in very early childhood..

Ditto.
Until Two for the Road, I had always thought Kate & Claire were the separated siblings. I'm ~almost~ ready to let that go but I still think Kate & Claire are the most likely Losties to have been on the island before.
100%

That they were all Dharma or something, but were dispersed around the globe, and now someone or something is trying to gather them again.


Yep, that's the one theory I'll hold 'til TPTB prys it from my cold dead fingers. Not sure how Dharma fits in so I just call them "special". Claire, Kate, Jack, Locke, and Walt are the most likely to be in that group, imo.
The rest of the original 14 - Sawyer, Sayid, Hurley, Charlie, Jin, & Sun - are in a different category. There for other reasons but not necessarily in the "special" group. Michael was there because of Walt, and Shannon & Boone were glorified red shirts and red herrings.

Until Two for the Road, I had always thought Kate & Claire were the separated siblings. I'm ~almost~ ready to let that go but I still think Kate & Claire are the most likely Losties to have been on the island before.

Me too.
100%


Yep, that's the one theory I'll hold 'til TPTB prys it from my cold dead fingers. Not sure how Dharma fits in so I just call them "special". Claire, Kate, Jack, Locke, and Walt are the most likely to be in that group, imo.
The rest of the original 14 - Sawyer, Sayid, Hurley, Charlie, Jin, & Sun - are in a different category. There for other reasons but not necessarily in the "special" group. Michael was there because of Walt, and Shannon & Boone were glorified red shirts and red herrings.
I'm right there next to you clutching onto this like a dog with a bone. Although I'm not quite sure about Sawyer.

Although I'm not quite sure about Sawyer.

He's one of the only two who see & call 'em like they are (the other's Charlie); he's the con artist whose skills are needed by someone, he's the whipping boy, and he's the anti-hero destined to become the hero. That's more than enough for one character. To have him be one of the "special" kids would be overkill..
100%

And an interesting one, I think, it occurred to me that there are two key moments, (pardon the pun) in Locke's life that have been determined by keys. The key that his father gave him to get the money was, basically, the cause of the end of his relationship with Helen. And then we have the hatch key, and how it "ends" everything in the Swan. .

There were at least two more key Locke moments: Helen's gift key to Locke, and the car keys Helen threw over the gate.
Non-Locke keys include the one Kate had to the sd box, the one to the Marshall's case (which Jack wore 'round his neck waaay longer than necessary), the keys that Kate asked Tom for, and Brennan's keys.
And that's just off the top of my head.

He's one of the only two who see & call 'em like they are (the other's Charlie); he's the con artist whose skills are needed by someone, he's the whipping boy, and he's the anti-hero destined to become the hero. That's more than enough for one character. To have him be one of the "special" kids would be overkill..
100%
True. But possibly some of the "special" kids brought back were ones whose development or potential went awry. I used to think that they were children whose parents got them off the island during or because of one of the incidents (circa 1985), but I admit there's nothing concrete to substantiate that. Nor is there really anything that suggests a past link to or experience on the island with Sawyer. So you may be right.

lostmio >
Yep, that's the one theory I'll hold 'til TPTB prys it from my cold dead fingers. Not sure how Dharma fits in so I just call them "special". Claire, Kate, Jack, Locke, and Walt are the most likely to be in that group, imo.


I think, if the idea that there are some Losties with "powers" comes about, that Sun is going to be in there too. Just thinking about "powers" - perhaps, as I was getting at earlier, Jack has a healing power. Anyway, Sun, I've always wondered if she has some kind of telekinesis and that's how the Glass Ballerina got broken, and that's why she was too scared to tell her father.
Oh, and if powers are being handed out, I'd say Hurley might have the power to control luck / fate / etc. As I was talking about a few pages back, I wonder if they survived the plane crash through a combination of Hurley's luck - his luck made him survive, and so, naturally, some of the people around him would survive too. And most survived with very few injuries, perhaps thanks to Jack's healing. Maybe it was Jack that healed Locke and Rose. I think the Island, or perhaps Walt, acted as a catalyst for their powers. And Sawyer, maybe his conning prowess has an element of a "power" involved, likewise Sayid's ability to know if someone is not telling the truth.


lostmio >
There were at least two more key Locke moments: Helen's gift key to Locke, and the car keys Helen threw over the gate.
Non-Locke keys include the one Kate had to the sd box, the one to the Marshall's case (which Jack wore 'round his neck waaay longer than necessary), the keys that Kate asked Tom for, and Brennan's keys.
And that's just off the top of my head.


Good point. Of course, as everyone knows, I'm sure, "Brennan" taking the keys rang all kinds of alarms about the possibility of Brennan being Kate's Tom Brennan, or related to him, at least.


I really like the direction we're taking this thread in.
I always find most threads are either good or bad, and that's it - they don't tend to evolve (not saying that's always the case, but you know what I mean), but this one really has taken on a whole new shape thanks to everyone's input. I always remember het_genie's "Fate" thread fondly, because a very similar thing happened.
So, let's keep it coming, guys and girls.

:thumbsup:

Oh, and if powers are being handed out, I'd say Hurley might have the power to control luck / fate / etc. As I was talking about a few pages back, I wonder if they survived the plane crash through a combination of Hurley's luck - his luck made him survive, and so, naturally, some of the people around him would survive too.
Luc: I'm totally thinking the same thing! Theory forthcoming, but the basic premise is that guys like Hurley, Walt, and Jack make their own luck, just like Martha Toomey said. I think Dharma was trying to aggregate this power to make luck and thereby change the Valenzetti's core factors. The problem is that luck can be good and bad -- it's Hurley's belief in the Numbers' curse (combined with his ability to make luck) that makes it a reality. I think a lot of our Losties are the same way, which is why they've experienced such radical shifts in luck throughout their lives.

What's really interesting is that we've already had two luck-making throwdowns -- Hurley vs. Walt (backgammon) and Jack vs. Sawyer (poker). Walt and Jack won their respective matches...

Luc: I'm totally thinking the same thing! Theory forthcoming, but the basic premise is that guys like Hurley, Walt, and Jack make their own luck, just like Martha Toomey said. I think Dharma was trying to aggregate this power to make luck and thereby change the Valenzetti's core factors. The problem is that luck can be good and bad -- it's Hurley's belief in the Numbers' curse (combined with his ability to make luck) that makes it a reality. I think a lot of our Losties are the same way, which is why they've experienced such radical shifts in luck throughout their lives.

What's really interesting is that we've already had two luck-making throwdowns -- Hurley vs. Walt (backgammon) and Jack vs. Sawyer (poker). Walt and Jack won their respective matches...Just to play devil's advocate here: What if the winners were just better than their opponents in their respective games?

Just to play devil's advocate here: What if the winners were just better than their opponents in their respective games?
Junie: Like Sayid and Hurley have both said in different contexts, "No one is that lucky." Stay tuned!

The beehive.
What if . . .
. . . the only reason it was there is because Charlie is allergic to bees.



I really like you theory Lucidity. I also found the beehive Charlie was standing on to be symbolic. I'm a big A.A. Milne fan, and Winnie the Pooh was always after the honey as he tried to elude the bees, and always saying it's "time for a little smackerel of something", singing songs about it...it was always on his mind like a Junkie. The fact that Charlie is allergic to bees makes it all the more interesting...

it's Hurley's belief in the Numbers' curse (combined with his ability to make luck) that makes it a reality.
Would that mean the dude who shot his head off controlled luck too? I dunno.
I'm thinking loosely that maybe the losties are somewhat results (not RESULTS, but affected at least) of/by the Island's strange energy (of which dharma explored, as said on the hatch map painting) or by some sort of dharma expirament. Either way, the losties are linked to all of this, but they don't see it and won't believe it since they're too glued to their past and their 'realities' (you know, where someone being able to tell the future is absurd). Maybe this is what the others are trying to get them to know... maybe. Who knows. :biggrin:

bm,
Yeah, we've seen a lot of games on the island, and, of course, the biggets element of most games is luck. And Sayid's line HAS to be significant. If Hurley's given all the lines relating to the viewers' comments and complaints, Sayid is definitely the barer of clues.


TheMe >
I really like you theory Lucidity. I also found the beehive Charlie was standing on to be symbolic. I'm a big A.A. Milne fan, and Winnie the Pooh was always after the honey as he tried to elude the bees, and always saying it's "time for a little smackerel of something", singing songs about it...it was always on his mind like a Junkie. The fact that Charlie is allergic to bees makes it all the more interesting...


That's so funny, because it totally reminded me of Winnie the Pooh too. Charlie being British, and, not wanting to sound too effemenite here but, Charlie has got a sort of "cuddly" quality to him.
But I must say, although Winnie was the star, and Tigger was the cool one, my fave was always Eeyore.


Carlo210 >
Would that mean the dude who shot his head off controlled luck too? I dunno.


First, I've always seen that as a possible connection between Radzinsky and Sam Toomey too, and, second, in any case, I've always wondered why, exactly, would Radzinsky kill himself. That could be a very interesting explanation.

Would that mean the dude who shot his head off controlled luck too?
Carlo: Careful, I don't think we're suggesting this is something they control. And don't forget, luck can be both good and bad.
If Hurley's given all the lines relating to the viewers' comments and complaints, Sayid is definitely the barer of clues.
luc: What an interesting character analysis! I hadn't thought about it that way, but those do seem to be their respective roles on the show.

Kate had better 'luck' in the golf match with Jack

I thought of that too, but there wasn't any strangely good or bad luck. But maybe that's because they were playing for fun - neither of them were really willing it to go either way.

What HAS always bugged me about that game though, is . . .
When the hell did Kate learn to play golf ?
Think about it, she's pretty young (27 / 28), and she's been on the run for the last 3 years.
So, while living wherever she lived with Wayne and her mum working as a waitress, at 20-something, with her motorbike and rock-chick look, she found the time, place and money to take up golf?
Memory implants, I tell you ! :golf:

That's so funny, because it totally reminded me of Winnie the Pooh too. Charlie being British, and, not wanting to sound too effemenite here but, Charlie has got a sort of "cuddly" quality to him.
But I must say, although Winnie was the star, and Tigger was the cool one, my fave was always Eeyore.




and not to get off-topic, but I've always felt pooh, tigger, eyeore, piglet and the rest, were all elements of the same psyche (perhaps of Christopher Robin, or that of the author himself). but maybe I'm reading too much into it, much like Lost! ;)

"The more he looked inside, the more he found Piglet wasn't there.' Milne

Anyway...I'm digging your thoughts.

Okay, thinking about this possibility that certain Losties are "special" and have the ability to WILL certain things to happen, I was just thinking about Christian and Jack's little father-son chats.
In general his attitude was always along the lines of his "making soft metal into steel" philosophy, but there were also two specific comments that struck me as particularly strange.

"I've had to sacrifice certain aspects of my relationship with you so that hundreds and thousands of patients will live because of your extraordinary skills."

and, regarding Gabriela,

"It may be okay for some people, Jack, but not for you."

And, as I mentioned on another thread very recently, there was Jack's comment about talking in his sleep, and that whatever it was he was saying his girlfriend hadn't liked it.

Oh, and, at "the line", there was Tom's "Sit down, Jack. No-one's going to hurt you."

And Rose's "You have a nice way about you. A good soul, patient, caring. I suppose that's why you became a doctor."

And then we have the fact that Sarah suddenly left Jack because "It doesn't matter who he is, it just matters who you're not".
and Christian had been in communication with her at this time.

Could it be that Christian had told her something about Jack's "origins"?

She meant it doesn't matter who my boyfriend is, it matters that you aren't my boyfriend. There could be a lot going on there, though.
I still think the thing he said in his sleep were things about their relationship that he wasn't comfortable with, or key medical failures that he's depressed about (like the one with his father - maybe he feels guilt over what happened to Christian), but we'll see.
Also, the lawyer asked if Walt ever appeared in places he shouldn't be. I don't even know what a person would say that for. Coincidence, it happens areound the same time that Walt starts appearing places. Some people may know more than others.

I must have read this somewhere else (another thread)....... it seems to fit here. Regarding the different variations of the book, Carrie. Perhaps there were different copies of the book because the Island manifested them from different memories of the Others in the bookclub. (For the life of me, I can't remember what thread I originally read this was.) I found this very interesting, because I truly think that the Island is manifesting a lot of these things. Even cheeseburgers....maybe. :biggrin:

sequelost,
Another good point.
I mentioned the different copies of the book on "Was the Crash Planned?", suggesting if the books were supplied in a normal sense they'd all have the same copy, and that maybe they've gathered the different copies from various crashes. But I really like the idea of them somehow being a reflection of each Losties' memory of the book.
And the cheeseburger is one I should have brought up here already. It's an obvious example of something strange going on. Cheeseburgers and the ingredients for making Juliet's muffins !

JACK: [Laughing] You people have cheeseburgers?

JULIET: You have no idea what I went through to make this for you. I killed the cow, processed the meat, baked the bun. And the fries... try rendering animal fat.


Okay... this is far-fetched. Maybe Juliet actually had to read/learn each "process" to create this burger before the Island could replicate it from her memory?

It's hard to know what the "process" might be, but a cheeseburger certainly entails more than a simple "food drop".

But there are all kinds of things that the Others have that strike me as strange - Orange Juice, for example. Or the rabbit. Everyone assumes it's from some research lab, but what research lab? Have we seen anything in working order yet?

Okay... this is far-fetched. Maybe Juliet actually had to read/learn each "process" to create this burger before the Island could replicate it from her memory?

Or maybe it's just a hamburger...

Or maybe it's just a hamburger...


Indeed, it's so much easier to keep things simple. I kinda' like throwing wild ideas out there on occasion.....never know where it might lead. :)

seaquelost,
Exactly.
That is the point of the board, after all. To come up with theories, rather than just state the obvious.
Some people just seem to get a kick out of pointing out that "the obvious" is more likely. Some do nothing but go thread by thread making flippant comments about how nothing means anything. But hey, if that's what makes them happy.
Personally I enjoy theorising, even if I do run the risk of being wrong.

I enjoy theorising too, but sometimes I think it's easy to visualize the writer's and plot-placers saying "Whatever we do, some guy is gonna think this (insert random prop) is something vitally important".

I'm more of the kinda guy who watches the show and sees certain clues, connects dialogue to other dialogues, etc and tries to make a connection (black and white, Yemi and smokey, Black horse and smokey, Whispers, powers, etc).
Maybe it's cause I'm really aware that no show is flawless in it's design and that writers and directors can sometimes 'goof' something miniscule up, making it seem like something special to those who dig deep into the roots (us! :D ). The writers have come forth to admitting to certain mistakes (such as different furniture/appliances/lights/etc in the hatch) and many simple coincidences.
I can, though, make connections between the dialogue-revealing 'unknown Apollo bars and musical artists'. This is something that has a good chance of being constructive to the story/mythology/secrets/etc of LOST since it's 100% there.

But hey, that's me.

Just a small thing to add.

On the recent Lost Panel thing Lindelof said :

TPTB know WHAT the island is and what its NATURE is.

I think that would suggest the Island DOES have some mysterious quality of its own, as opposed to just being the location of Dharma's experiments, or Smokey.
I know a lot of people were already pretty clear on that point, but, personally, I was still unsure if it was the Island itself or a power ON the island.


And I'm not saying this comment confirms the suggestion made in this thread (that the Island manifested the Losties' thoughts, fears, desires, etc.), but I think it does at least give support to this TYPE of theory.

I think Dr.Candle made it pretty clear that the island had special qualities in The Swan Orientation film...

...the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island...

Plus we learnt from TLE...

That the islands location has been known to the Hanso family for generations

I think what the island is must have been one of the first things discussed by JJ and Damon, I'm pretty sure they've said as much, no point doing a "creepy-island show" without knowing exactly what the nature of that creepiness is.

But I don't think Lindelof was just talking about Electro-magnetism.
And we certainly didn't know of anything more than that.

And "creepy island show" doesn't mean the island itself is creepy.
Until I started this thread I was totally of the opinion that the island was a regular island and that it was what was ON the island that made it "creepy".
I may well be wrong, but I don't know of any specific comments from TPTB suggesting the island was in any way special . . .

. . . prior to this one.

Until I started this thread I was totally of the opinion that the island was a regular island and that it was what was ON the island that made it "creepy".[spoiler]

But doesn't a big thing that goes WHOOOOOOOO and knock down trees move a regular island into creepy territory?

That, the polar bear plus the weirdness with the weather, I can't say I've ever considered the island or the things on it as regular.

I've often said the island is my favourite character.

Imagine a horror film about a dark forest where cute little children get deaded.
Two possibilities :
1. There is a mysterious / murderous / kind but misunderstood group of people living IN the forest.
2. The forest itself is mysterious / murderous / misunderstood.

Both are possibilities, and both are possibilities on Lost.

That there's Smokey, polar bears, weird weather, doesn't mean the island itself is weird, it could just be the things ON the island.
There's a clear difference, and the Spoiler I posted is in reference to that distinction.

Just seems an odd division to make is all, I'd say the forest becomes creepy by association.

I'm not arguing with you, you seem like your gearing up for a fight.

:cool:

No, not at all. :hypocrit:


:chair:
( joke )

And I know what you mean by "association". I meant to say that in my earlier post but forgot. That both possibilities (mysterious powers of the forest itself or mysterious people living IN the forest, but the forest being an ordinary run of the mill forest otherwise) would lead to the forest being called "mysterious".

For me it's a fundamental difference, that of whether the weirdness we see is a result of the island itself or something or someone that is simply on the island and the day they or it leave Craphole will be a normal island again.
Not just in terms of the distinction itself but because of the implications of the distinction in terms of the explanation.

Okay, a HUGE Spoiler that MIGHT be related to "willing things to happen".

But, seriously, this isn't your normal, run of the mill Lindelof says such and such. According to the Spoiler source this is a scene from the upcoming Not in Portland, and I'd say it probably constitutes the biggest shock of the episode.
You have been warned . . .


Taken from this Spoiler thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67493) :

Juliet: the flashbacks are hers, and the ep opens on her, giving her apparently sick sister an injection of some kind of experimental drug. Juliet is living in Miami, working in a lab for her sadistic (my word) ex-husband. She gets a job offer from a firm "in Portland" that had been impressed by the fact that she had impregnated a male field mouse. I won't give away my "holy s---" moment, but suffice to say she sells her soul to take the job. After hearing the company isn't quite in Portland, she agrees to a six-month commitment.




I think Juliet has sold her soul because in her initial interview she said her ex-husband would have to be hit by a bus before she would be able to take the job ... and then he is. And then these people — a guy we haven't seen before and Ethan — show up in the freaking morgue to renew their offer. She must have an inkling that they were somehow involved, even if the bus seemed purely accidental.


I really think this is a major clue that "willing things to happen", or at least something very similar, is the mysterious force at play in Lost.

Luc: You have once again set my face to stunned!

Awesome. Kinda saw that connection going on (I told ya so! Juliet ain't happy!).

I don't like filling this thread up with Spoilers, but there's not much talk happening so it's better than nothing . . .


A couple of weeks ago I posted a Spoiler about Hurley finding a car on the island, and I suggested it was very likely a car that one of the Losties recognised from pre-island.

I think if this happens it will be very relevant to this thread because, in my mind, it puts the Beechcraft into a very different light. Okay, it was waaaaay off-course, but it was a possibility that it just happened to crash there. But a car couldn't end up on the island by accident, and I think that will prove the beechcraft didn't end up there by accident either.

And so we'd have two huge "objects" on the island that were there as a direct result of the associated Losties being there. I know this doesn't necessarily prove the Island was able to manifest them from the Losties' memories, but I think it's a very big step in that direction.

Anyway, the new Spoiler is at this site (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/), under the heading Lost Moment 10.
Basically Vincent turns up (at last !) with a rotting / burnt arm in its mouth, and hanging from the hand is what looks to me like a key, with a rabbit's foot keyring.
Hurley seems to recognise it and then chases after the dog, so I'm guessing it's Hurley's car and carkeys.

What's cool about this is that it also coincides with Eko's cross, i.e. that they both had a personal item associated with their discovery.

And what could be cooler?
A rabbit's foot keyring (Todell will be happy), and they're supposed to bring GOOD LUCK, Luck - Hurley . . .

Okay, a HUGE Spoiler that MIGHT be related to "willing things to happen".

But, seriously, this isn't your normal, run of the mill Lindelof says such and such. According to the Spoiler source this is a scene from the upcoming Not in Portland, and I'd say it probably constitutes the biggest shock of the episode.
You have been warned . . .


Taken from this Spoiler thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67493) :



I really think this is a major clue that "willing things to happen", or at least something very similar, is the mysterious force at play in Lost.

Yeah, imagine her saying something like, "Wow! That sounds like a great job offer, but my husband (Ex-husband that she still works for???) would never let me do it. The only way that I could go is if he got hit by a bus or dropped off the face of the earth...". Then, it happens. Does it happen because deep down Juliet wanted it to happen or did Ethan and the other guy facilitate it? Maybe, when we see it, it will be clearer...or...maybe...it will be like the Walt and his mother and the bird situation and we may never know...

I don't like filling this thread up with Spoilers, but there's not much talk happening so it's better than nothing . . .


A couple of weeks ago I posted a Spoiler about Hurley finding a car on the island, and I suggested it was very likely a car that one of the Losties recognised from pre-island.

I think if this happens it will be very relevant to this thread because, in my mind, it puts the Beechcraft into a very different light. Okay, it was waaaaay off-course, but it was a possibility that it just happened to crash there. But a car couldn't end up on the island by accident, and I think that will prove the beechcraft didn't end up there by accident either.

And so we'd have two huge "objects" on the island that were there as a direct result of the associated Losties being there. I know this doesn't necessarily prove the Island was able to manifest them from the Losties' memories, but I think it's a very big step in that direction.

Anyway, the new Spoiler is at this site (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/), under the heading Lost Moment 10.
Basically Vincent turns up (at last !) with a rotting / burnt arm in its mouth, and hanging from the hand is what looks to me like a key, with a rabbit's foot keyring.
Hurley seems to recognise it and then chases after the dog, so I'm guessing it's Hurley's car and carkeys.

What's cool about this is that it also coincides with Eko's cross, i.e. that they both had a personal item associated with their discovery.

And what could be cooler?
A rabbit's foot keyring (Todell will be happy), and they're supposed to bring GOOD LUCK, Luck - Hurley . . .


Double whoah!

PS: It is...
...indeed a rabbit's foot and key. You can see the screen caps on Dark UFO's spoiler site (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/).

Lindelof said recently :
"This show is about people who are metaphorically lost in their lives, who get on an airplane, and crash on an island, and become physically lost on the planet Earth. And once they are able to metaphorically find themselves in their lives again, they will be able to physically find themselves in the world again. When you look at the entire show, that's what it will look like. That's what it's always been about. "


Do we assume this is a "human" story that lies beneath the science story?
Or could it be that this idea should be taken literally, and the Losties really do need to "find themselves" before they can be found by the outside world?
Ages ago (my very first post, I think) I suggested that Craphole might be Purgatory, but a man-made, science-based Purgatory.

If Lindelof's statement were taken literally, that's more or less what he would be describing.

Do we assume this is a "human" story that lies beneath the science story?
Or could it be that this idea should be taken literally, and the Losties really do need to "find themselves" before they can be found by the outside world?
Ages ago (my very first post, I think) I suggested that Craphole might be Purgatory, but a man-made, science-based Purgatory.

If Lindelof's statement were taken literally, that's more or less what he would be describing.Yes, I think that ultimately, TPTB have created LOST to be a story about humanity and human nature above everything else. To make a story interesting, whether it's a book, a tv show or a movie, it's always good to through in a little mystery, a little action and aventure, etc., but if the characters aren't interesting, no one is going to be interested in the story or whatever else that you're trying to say. I think that TPTB might have been a little sneaky in their denial of the Island being Purgatory. I don't think that the Island is literally Purgatory, but anyone's experiences on it have a cleansing and renewal sense to them. I don't think that anyone can come to Craphole Island and not be reborn, in a sense. When you are forced to examine yourself to the very core and everyone around you and life in general, you will come out of the experience cleansed and reborn. Sometimes, I get the feeling that Ben is testing Jack, but maybe, that's because I favor Jack. I dont' think, though, that the DI or THF made the Island out to be some kind of man-made Purgatory. I think that's just how things kind of evolved, especially when you through humanity and human nature in the mix...

Lindelof said recently :
"This show is about people who are metaphorically lost in their lives, who get on an airplane, and crash on an island, and become physically lost on the planet Earth. And once they are able to metaphorically find themselves in their lives again, they will be able to physically find themselves in the world again. When you look at the entire show, that's what it will look like. That's what it's always been about. "

Do we assume this is a "human" story that lies beneath the science story?
Or could it be that this idea should be taken literally, and the Losties really do need to "find themselves" before they can be found by the outside world?
Ages ago (my very first post, I think) I suggested that Craphole might be Purgatory, but a man-made, science-based Purgatory.

If Lindelof's statement were taken literally, that's more or less what he would be describing.


If taken literally this is a description of therapy. After all isn't the objective of therapy to help people to find themselves and adjust their lives? Not to purge their sins as in purgatory.

Lucidity.

i have to say that this idea ( in the OP), although i don't think it is correct, makes you look at Lost events from a whole different angle, and in many ways it could fit.
but im not sure it stands up to much scrutiny.

i wonder, for example, how you would fit the Lost Experience into all this - i havent read the whole thread so apologies if it has been mentioned before.

The LE is said to be a true, if non-essential, part of the story, and here we have a film made off the island about how the hatches were installed and everything, with the background and reasons behind it all, citing things such as the cold war and stuff thats happened in the real world. and then we are given a present day clip about how the DI failed.
i just dont see how the swan hatch could have been created from locke's supposition or hope of what it was - given the amount of exposition that we have.

but as i said - a really interesting way round to look at it. :)

Juniebun,
Thanks for getting back to me on Lindelof's statement.
I'm feeling very ignored lately - I've posted all sorts of interesting things that have had no response at all - hint hint, people. :renske:
I posted a new thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67760) this afternoon that hasn't even got the usual mandatory criticisms - someone pleeeease at least criticise it for me !

edit : just thought, I should tell you the above thread is a Spoiler theory, for those who aren't into Spoilers. Nothing huge, but a Spoiler nonetheless.


Juniebun >
I think that TPTB might have been a little sneaky in their denial of the Island being Purgatory. I don't think that the Island is literally Purgatory, but anyone's experiences on it have a cleansing and renewal sense to them. I don't think that anyone can come to Craphole Island and not be reborn, in a sense. When you are forced to examine yourself to the very core and everyone around you and life in general, you will come out of the experience cleansed and reborn. Sometimes, I get the feeling that Ben is testing Jack, but maybe, that's because I favor Jack. I dont' think, though, that the DI or THF made the Island out to be some kind of man-made Purgatory. I think that's just how things kind of evolved, especially when you through humanity and human nature in the mix...


That's what I'm thinking - those Purgatory references (Gary Troup, etc.) must have been there for a reason, unless TPTB really were just cruel enough to put them in there to confuse our poor Lost-abused brains even more. But no, for me, it's Purgatory but not in the literal, Heaven / Hell sense.


LostSanity >
If taken literally this is a description of therapy. After all isn't the objective of therapy to help people to find themselves and adjust their lives? Not to purge their sins as in purgatory.


I definitely thought of your theories when I read that quote. It's very, very related, isn't it?

BlackLotus,
First off I'm not a big follower of the LE stuff, so I'm not really sure how it might fit in or not, and whether it even needs to. But if I'm not mistaken there was no specific mention of what would be found in each hatch. So, maybe the hatch is real and was there pre-crash, but what was inside was not. The hatches would act as a sort of mirror reflecting whoever entered.

Juniebun,
Thanks for getting back to me on Lindelof's statement.
I'm feeling very ignored lately - I've posted all sorts of interesting things that have had no response at all - hint hint, people. :renske:
I posted a new thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67760) this afternoon that hasn't even got the usual mandatory criticisms - someone pleeeease at least criticise it for me !

edit : just thought, I should tell you the above thread is a Spoiler theory, for those who aren't into Spoilers. Nothing huge, but a Spoiler nonetheless.

That's what I'm thinking - those Purgatory references (Gary Troup, etc.) must have been there for a reason, unless TPTB really were just cruel enough to put them in there to confuse our poor Lost-abused brains even more. But no, for me, it's Purgatory but not in the literal, Heaven / Hell sense.

I definitely thought of your theories when I read that quote. It's very, very related, isn't it?

BlackLotus,
First off I'm not a big follower of the LE stuff, so I'm not really sure how it might fit in or not, and whether it even needs to. But if I'm not mistaken there was no specific mention of what would be found in each hatch. So, maybe the hatch is real and was there pre-crash, but what was inside was not. The hatches would act as a sort of mirror reflecting whoever entered.Well, don't take it personally. Some people have easy access to the Fuselage and some don't. I am lucky that my job gives me a lot of freedom. I could be on here all day. Well, I am off and on...;)

Yeah, while I don't think the Island was designed, per se, to be a Purgatory-like place and I don't think that it is literally Purgatory, I think that the experience functions like Purgatory. I thought that I read somewhere, sometime, that the Gary Troup thing was thrown in the mix as nothing serious and more as something to say that the Island was not literally Purgatory. I also think that I read that although the LE was about the same things that LOST was about, it was not considered canon in terms of what we see on the show. I think it was for uber fans, like us. I think it was like "summer homework" in between grades that was designed to keep us busy over the breaks and keep our interest in the show. By the way, I'm off to read your new thread. I'm great at reading and critiquing other people's threads, but I haven't started one in months...

I definitely thought of your theories when I read that quote. It's very, very related, isn't it?


Actually, I am quite surprised that Lindelof stated the plot of the show so bluntly, it doesn't leave much for the imagination. Ever since the last episode of season two LTDA I have come to believe that almost everything related to the losties needs to be interpreted metaphorically rather than literally. For example the Island is a metaphor for the mind with it's Dark Region that is protected by a security system much like a troubled mind might have a dark region that a person would not want to confront and when they do alarms go off -- to protect the mind (Island). Or even Smokey, who most people assume scans minds, but I believe is a mechanism to trigger forgotten memories of ones past. As for the technology that makes this all possible, pick one. If you don't like VR, which I know you don't, then pick something you do like. In the end it doesn't matter how it's done as long as it accomplishes the objective of the stated plot; that they may be able to find themselves. As Lindelof said; "That's what its always been about."

LS,
Why don't you bring up one of the your threads again with that Lindelof quote, or start a new one as a summary for the earlier ones. The 'lage Old Boys are all still here, but there's very much a large "New Batch" of 'lagers who probably haven't seen your theories. And on that note, I'd say we really have got some good new blood round here, wouldn't you agree? A lot of cool new ideas on old themes.

As I've said on many occasions, while I don't actually LIKE the idea of what you're explanation is, I can certainly see how it would explain an awful lot. And a lot of the areas I believe most strongly in overlap with your theories too.


Junie,
:thumbsup: Thanks so much for posting on my new thread and telling Todell about it. There's a bit more movement there now.


I am lucky that my job gives me a lot of freedom. I could be on here all day. Well, I am off and on...;)


I'm the same at work. I'm on the computer anyway, so I just flick over every time I get bored and see what's being said.

BlackLotus,
First off I'm not a big follower of the LE stuff, so I'm not really sure how it might fit in or not, and whether it even needs to. But if I'm not mistaken there was no specific mention of what would be found in each hatch. So, maybe the hatch is real and was there pre-crash, but what was inside was not. The hatches would act as a sort of mirror reflecting whoever entered.

although TPTB said that TLE wasnt essential to understand the TV show. they did say it was cannon as part of the larger storyline, and thus it has to be taken into account if we are to draw proper conclusions from all the evidence.
the research goals were outlined - i.e. what was in the hatches. also the numbers were defined.
so your idea that the numbers were in/on the hatch purely because of hurley's complex about them cannot be true

although TPTB said that TLE wasnt essential to understand the TV show. they did say it was cannon as part of the larger storyline, and thus it has to be taken into account if we are to draw proper conclusions from all the evidence.
the research goals were outlined - i.e. what was in the hatches. also the numbers were defined.
so your idea that the numbers were in/on the hatch purely because of hurley's complex about them cannot be true

And someone who has seen Not In Portland had this to say...

Nothing about the plot is revealed, this is just barely a spoiler...

We've waited, we've waited and we've waited. And it's seemed like forever. But "Lost" will return on Wed. Feb. 7 with an action-packed Juliet-centric episode that picks up where "I Do" left off.

"Not in Portland" does a bang-up job of answering a question or two (about Juliet) while deepening a couple of related mysteries involving Ben and the Ben-folk.

To date I've watched this episode three times, and no, I'm not about to spoil anything for you, although I WILL say that I did hit a few nails on the head at the beginning of Season Three with some of the theories I floated in my October and November posts. (Have some time on your hands? Re-read them in the archives section, at right.)

I'd also like to say that "N.I.P." -- the first new episode of 2007 and the first to air in the series' new 10 p.m. timeslot -- does contain some cool special effects. Three, in fact.

The episode also references material that appeared in last summer's "The Lost Experience." So, you may want to brush up on your L.E. lore, or wait for me to do it for you.

And, if you're in the mood, you may also want to rent a copy of Warren Beatty's conspiracy-thriller "The Parallax View."

Oh, don't ask why. Just do it.

http://njmg.typepad.com/lost/

I know some people are not not going to like that.

BL and Richard,
Okay, so it seems the LE will come into play more.
I remind you both, I never said it wouldn't - I just wasn't really sure because I never really followed it.

However, although I accept that it flies in the face of the logical, I am still more inclined to stick to my theory than believe the LE. First, because from what I've seen of the LE stuff I just don't see those explanations fitting in to what I see happening in Lost, and so I tend to see it in the same way as I see the Orientation stuff, i.e. all a lie.

And second because I'm totally convinced it was no coincidence that Hurley was chanting the numbers on the way back from the Black Rock, before opening the hatch. It could have just been the writers reminding us of the association, but that seems uncharacteristic to me.

And a question . . .
Wasn't the LE stuff dated AFTER what we're seeing happening on Craphole now, and therefore after Hurley went into the hatch?
I'm not suggesting you buy into that explanation, just wondering myself.

Oh, and on a different point . . .

Based on the Spoilers about the Losties finding a car, I suggested it might be an old car of Hurley's, i.e. along these lines of the Island manifesting things from their thoughts and memories.
However, according to the latest rumours it would appear it's a actually a DHARMA van, so nothing to do with Hurley.
Unless, Hurley used to work for DHARMA . . . (joke)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071970/

Here's a link to the movie...Warren Beatty was a looker, that's for sure...did flashback Jack get his hair from him in this movie, though??? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parallax_View

Also...here's Wikipedia's take on the movie (With some spoilers, apparently, in the description, so beware...)

Apparently, there is a big, sinister corporation that does whatever it wants and can do to influence world events, including brainwash people and make them do bad things...this reminds me of the spoiler that said that Karl is going to be found watching a mind-melding movie like Clockwork Orange - or something like that...I think that I heard that it's about violence...

And a question . . .
Wasn't the LE stuff dated AFTER what we're seeing happening on Craphole now, and therefore after Hurley went into the hatch?
I'm not suggesting you buy into that explanation, just wondering myself.

Rachel Blake, Mittelwerk, The Hanso Foundation site...

All of those things take place in 2006 and outside the TV series.

I've always felt that the only real thing of major value plot-wise from TLE was DHARMA Orientation film, that dealt with mythology that directly relates to the show, though we learnt some other minor stuff too outside that, about The Black Rock for example...

I don't think you can dismiss the things we learnt about the numbers, the island, the food drops and The DHARMA Initiative as lies.

That is what this show is about for me.

And second because I'm totally convinced it was no coincidence that Hurley was chanting the numbers on the way back from the Black Rock, before opening the hatch

This is after Arzt blew up, Hurley is convinced this is his fault because he's cursed by the numbers, that's why IMO he's chanting them like Lenny used to at that point.

Can you explain a little more what you mean when you say it was no coincidence.

:confused:

Juniebun,
That Parallax stuff is interesting.
From the title I thought it was going to be more Sci-Fi.
And the "influence world events" thing reminds me of some of the stuff talked about on het_genie's Fate thread, which, funnily enough, has just come up on a new thread : The Other See the Future.

Richard,
I agree that elements of the LE are interesting, but I don't believe in the overall idea, basically.
What came up about the Black Rock? I've seen stuff about Hanso ancestors. Is that it?


Can you explain a little more what you mean when you say it was no coincidence.


Well, that's basically the idea of this thread - that none of it is a coincidence, or any sinister pre-Island connection, it's just the Island manifesting the Losties thoughts and fears.
Read page 1, if you haven't already, but some examples were the Numbers, Claire's nursery hanger, the Beechcraft, the Polar Bears, Shannon's song lyrics, etc. But relating specifically to the hatch was the conversation Locke and Hurley had right before heading back and blowing it open :


Hurley > So, dude? What do you think is inside of that hatch thing?
Locke > What do you thinks inside it?
Hurley > Stacks of TV dinners from the 50's, or something. And TVs, and cable, some cell phones, clean socks, soap, Twinkies... you know, for dessert, after the TV dinners. Twinkies keep for like 8000 years, man.
Locke > I like Twinkies, too.
Hurley > C'mon really, what do you think is inside?
Locke > Hope. I think hope is inside.


And as I posted on Page 1 : "So, what do they find? A room full of strange food. And what is the one thing that stands out among all this food in its plain packaging? Apollo bars. Okay, they're not Twinkies, but they're not far off either. And what does Locke find? Desmond, and with him, the computer - something to believe in, something that gives him purpose. 'Hope'."

and then later, as I said earlier, Hurley was chanting the numbers. It could all be a coincidence, but there's a lot of it in a very small hatch.

That's the thing I guess...

I feel like I know (roughly) why the numbers were on the hatch becuase of what I learnt from TLE.

I don't think it's a manifestation of anything myself, I believe it was really there.

I believe in the DHARMA stuff at the moment.


Richard,
I agree that elements of the LE are interesting, but I don't believe in the overall idea, basically.


What was the overall idea?

You've lost me there, I didn't think it was something that you could believe in?

Do you still not think TLE has anything to do with the show even after all the confirmations we've had?

To say it's interesting sounds like you're dismissing it completely.

I may have just misunderstood.

As I said before I've never taken much notice, so my stance isn't based on anything other than what I imagine and would like to see in the show.

But, basically, I just see the LE as a fictional entity within Lost-reality.
I mean, obviously it's all fiction, but within the idea that what we're seeing on Craphole is real, I think the Dharma stuff is largely fake. "Largely" because within the lies there might be clues as to the purpose of the lies, and that purpose would be real.

And this is pretty much how I see the Orientation stuff too.
On my Deception thread I always called that side of things the façade, the "cover story".

But like I say, there's no serious grounds at all for this idea. Just my take on things.

Just out of interest, have you ever watched the DHARMA film?

It's not very long, four minutes max, you don't need to watch the Mittelwerk sections at all.

But, basically, I just see the LE as a fictional entity within Lost-reality.

I mean, obviously it's all fiction, but within the idea that what we're seeing on Craphole is real, I think the Dharma stuff is largely fake. "Largely" because within the lies there might be clues as to the purpose of the lies, and that purpose would be real..

Rachel Blake met Jorge Garcia and DDK, not Hurley and Jin, and from that point on things became incredibly confused and tough to explain.

But....

The information in The DHARMA Orientation film, if you ask me that's 100% canon.

What Alvar Hanso says about the numbers, etc. I believe to be the truth.

With the two Orientation films we've seen on the island (in the show), clearly there is some sort of deception at play here, but I think it was the people in The Pearl who were being decieved, and I think the reasons for that deception are fairly clear.

I believe the button was real and the consequences of not pushing it have yet to reveal themselves.

Thankfully there's not long to go before we get more answers, and more questions.

:cool:

Oh, yeah, I've seen the film. The Sri Lank video, right?
I just didn't "follow" it. Just waited for a nice, neat LostPedia summary.

But it's that side of things at that Comic Meet PodCast thing that make me choose to ignore it all, because for me, I fear the alternative is not watching Lost any more.

It's a TV show. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a TV show. But it's a TV show that I like to take seriously.
I like The OC too. And this Season they've gone all weird and started doing dream episodes and things. But for me it's all good, because the elements I like in that show aren't affected by that sort of thing. I like to look at the pretty people and laugh at Seth's jokes. No investment. But Lost, no. I don't like all that business. And so I prefer to think of the LE as just a bit of fun, as opposed to a serious element of the story. And as such, although some of it gives some addtional information, I wouldn't use it as a basis for a theory or grounds to stop believing in a theory.
Not while Rachel Blake is running around talking to actors as actors.

The information in The DHARMA Orientation film, if you ask me that's 100% canon.

What Alvar Hanso says about the numbers, etc. I believe to be the truth.

With the two Orientation films we've seen on the island (in the show), clearly there is some sort of deception at play here, but I think it was the people in The Pearl who were being decieve, and I think the reason for that deception are fairly clear.

I believe the button was real and the consequences of not pushing it have yet to reveal themselves.

I agree 110%.

I need to dig up the quotes where Gregg Nations and Javi basically say TLE is canon.

I wouldn't group the Sri Lanka video together with TLE as a whole, in fact I would forget the whole thing but for those four minutes when we got to see Alvar Hanso for the first time and he told us all about DHARMA.

That was the payoff. The rest was a game.

You can ignore Rachel Blake, Mittelwerk, ROT and THF...

But to ignore, amongst other things, what the numbers really are (and what we got in the video is it, that's the explanation) seems a little odd.

You seem to have dismissed it in it's entirety.

What element of TLE do you think might be referenced in Not in Portland?

:confused:

CR,
Something being "Canon" doesn't mean it's "Real", just that if it's a lie it's an official one.

Was that Spoiler question for me?

I said that I've got a new thread in the Spoiler Section about Juliet's 9 / 11 reference. And someone, BlackLotus, I think, posted a quote from TPTB that said there'd be some kind of LE incorporation in the next ep.



Oh, and ignoring the LE explanation for the numbers? Well, each to his own, I suppose. You choose to consider some aspects valid, and others like Rachel Blake talking to the staff as irrelevant. I choose to take that whole "experience" with a big pinch of salt.

Was that Spoiler question for me?

Yup.

I said that I've got a new thread in the Spoiler Section about Juliet's 9 / 11 reference. And someone, BlackLotus, I think, posted a quote from TPTB that said there'd be some kind of LE incorporation in the next ep

What has 9/11 got to do with TLE?

And that was me I think, I posted something from a blog that says something from TLE comes up in Not in Portland, I've heard nothing about it from any of TPTB.

My point was...

If LOST is real and TLE is canon (ie, official but not real) how can it be referenced in the show?

CR,
Something being "Canon" doesn't mean it's "Real", just that if it's a lie it's an official one.

So basically you think it's all a lie and if Gregg and Javi tell us (on numerous occasions) it's canon they're lying too?

Because canon doesn't mean real?

:confused:

Taken from DJ Javi's LJ Link (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=58409) thread...

Q - Will the Numbers be explained in the show?

A - they have been explained already in the experience so they don' thave to be explained in the show - that was the point of the experience

The explanation for the numbers from TLE is real, or canon, whatever you want to call it that's the answer.

Q - Now, a lot of the stuff revealed is, I'm sure (I never watched Lost) very relevent to the plot of season 2. Now, my friend didn't play, and wont let me tell her anything that happened in the game.

I was just wondering how the revelations about the numbers, etc, would be handled in the show. From the characters point of view, surely they should know, yet from a viewers point of view, you wouldn't want to hear something twice.

So sorry for rambling but basically - will telling a Lost fan anything that happened in the ARG, spoil anything at all?

A - well, the prupose and origin of the numbers are very important but not necessarily something that would be easily revealable on the island, so it was revealed in the experience. you can expect some of this mythology to cross pollinate with the show, but how and to what extent...i dunno, i don't work there anymore!

telling alost fan what happened in the arg will answer a lot of their questions... like "what are the numbers."

Canon means Official.
But, within the Lost story, there can be lies. But those lies, if they happen within the show, are, of course, still Canon. If Lindelof says tomorrow that Jack is a robot. Then that's canon. But it doesn't have to be true.

TPTB confirming the LE was Canon is just to clarify that it was official, unlike, for example, the Driveshaft site.

This sums it up...

Oh, and ignoring the LE explanation for the numbers?

It's not TLE explanation, it's the explanation.

That's clearly your opinion.
I think I'm entitled to my own.


What has 9/11 got to do with TLE?


Nothing, as far as I'm aware. At the end of your post you asked me about my "Not in Portland" reference and I suggested you might have read a post of mine about that. Nothing to with the LE. As I've been saying all along, I didn't follow it, and therefore don't take it into account.

That's clearly your opinion.
I think I'm entitled to my own.

No, it's fact I'm afraid, not just my opinion.

Q - Will the Numbers be explained in the show?

A - they have been explained already in the experience so they don' thave to be explained in the show - that was the point of the experience

And I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion.

But you can't dismiss the facts.

This 9/11 thing...

Nothing, as far as I'm aware. At the end of your post you asked me about my "Not in Portland" reference and I suggested you might have read a post of mine about that. Nothing to with the LE. As I've been saying all along, I didn't follow it, and therefore don't take it into account.

I never asked you about your Not in Portland reference?

I asked you what TLE reference in Not in Portland would be?
I didn't even mentioned your thread?

:confused:

Richard,
Let's just agree to disagree.
I totally understand that to you it seems absurd that I am willing to dismiss the Lost Experience. But, not trying to provoke, just explain, for me it's equally absurd that you choose to believe some aspects and not others. It's just a difference of opinion - not over the details of the LE but over its nature.

For me it's either all real or none of it is.
And for you, the numbers explanation was real while the Rachel Blake talking to the actors isn't to be taken seriously.
It's not a question of knowledge or understanding - we both, I think, agree, that the Rachel Blake stuff was a bit ridiculous, and it's just a difference of how we chose to treat the LE.
Within YOUR final interpretation of the LE I totally understand that the numbers explanation is fact, but within MINE none of it is.

And the person that you're quoting regarding the LE being the explanation for the numbers isn't one of the writers, and so I don't see how his or her opinion is any more valid than yours or mine.

And the 9 / 11 stuff, it was obviously just a misunderstanding.
I was having trouble with my internet connection yesterday and it was taking like 5 minutes to load a page and some of our answers were coming up around the same time, so it all got a bit muddled for me.

I don't pick and choose what to ignore, I ignore the stuff that happens in 2006, there's a good reason for it seing as LOST takes place in 2004.

And the person that you're quoting regarding the LE being the explanation for the numbers isn't one of the writers, and so I don't see how his or her opinion is any more valid than yours or mine.

I was quoting Javi.

He was defintely one of the writers, a producer even, his opinion matters and is much much more valid than mine.

In fact I believe it was he and Damon who came up with the numbers in the first place, I wasn't just quoting some random person who says that the LE explanation for the numbers is the explanation, I was quoting the person who helped come up with that part of the plot to begin with, you can't really go to a higher source.

I linked to CrimsonRabbits LE thread where he answered all our questions in a previous post.

Within YOUR final interpretation of the LE I totally understand that the numbers explanation is fact, but within MINE none of it is..

Which is why I asked...

...what element of TLE (If none of it is fact) do you think may be referenced in Not in Portland?

:smile:

Oh, I thought it was that DJ Dan guy. You posted something he'd said earlier and I thought the other stuff was from him too. I don't even know if that guy is a fictional character within the LE or if he's just a fan. But, yeah, if it was Javi I can see your point. I'll think about that some more.


I don't pick and choose what to ignore, I ignore the stuff that happens in 2006, there's a good reason for it seing as LOST takes place in 2004.


And I don't want to be argumentative, but you ARE still choosing what parts to ignore. You're just doing it with a specific criteria. But I still say that if parts of the LE need to be ignored, then the whole thing, for me, loses significance.

_______________________________________

And, as I just posted on another thread :
Totally off topic, but in case people haven't see it. There's a brilliant Lost parody thing here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bbWF_F8-s&eurl=). It's a joke, but filmed by Disney with the actual actors and actresses. I love Sayid's last line.

Oh, I thought it was that DJ Dan guy. You posted something he'd said earlier and I thought the other stuff was from him too. I don't even know if that guy is a fictional character within the LE or if he's just a fan. But, yeah, if it was Javi I can see your point. I'll think about that some more.

Javi played the character of DJ Dan during TLE.

All the stuff I quoted was from Javi, I've not quoted any DJ Dan stuff.

Not to fan the flames of dispute, but I note there are many fans who believe TLE material is spoilers and should be segregated accordingly. I basically stopped posting on another site (lost-tv) because they wouldn't let me make references to TLE material in my general theories. IMO, it was just insane...

Also, I actually think it's entirely reasonable to treat some aspects of TLE as canon and ignore the rest. My general rule of thumb is that most of the information that predates the crash of Flight 815 (i.e., Magnus Hanso, the Numbers, etc.) has literal relevance to the show. Everything after (Rachel Blake, Mittelwerk, etc.) may be relevant but only metaphorically. The line is somewhat arbitrary -- it always is -- but has the virtue of being clear and easy to enforce.

Lastly, a friend of mine had the pleasure of meeting Javi at a party in LA and proceeded to describe his obsessed friend (i.e., me). Javi told my buddy to ask me if I knew who DJ Dan was (which would confirm I was in too deep) so I'm assuming his info is credible.

Well... I think TLE (outside the meaning for the NUMBERS) is irrelevant to the show, but that doesn't mean its's irrelevant to the greater LOST universe. I've concluded that what makes LOST work is a franchise of concepts and themes that could really take place anywhere and everywhere. So the NUMBERS will always be the same unchaging constants of bad fate in a LOST video game/novel or show set in 1500 as it would be in 2500. So in terms of Jack and the Losties story, TLE is largely irrelevant, but in terms of understanding how the Lost universe works, it's fundamental. But really, all the Valenzetti Equation does is force people to question how science and mathematics can address something largely theoretical, just as the Equation's real life inspiration the Drake Equation does.

To somewhat get back on topic, the Equation challenges people to redefine their perspectives of science in relation to faith and the imagination -- much as people believe in string theory despite it being untestable.

Then again there's the "time thing" Damon and Carlton keep alluding to that may eventually make the distnctions between when the show takes place in 2004 and the game taking place in 2006 irrelevant.

wow, looks like i opened up a whole hatch o' worms by bringing up the LE on this thread :biggrin:

imo, the alvar hanso orientation vid, which is independent of the island, could surely not be a deception, because if so it would be a direct deception of the biggest fans of lost rather than a deception of the losties ( a deception once removed )

and i doubt if TPTB would risk alienating those die-hard fans.

Well, I still go with the numbers being Hurley's as opposed to the LE explanation, i.e. that Hurley used the numbers and won the lottery by blind luck, later became obsessed with their "power" and the numbers being on and in the hatch is nothing more than a manifestation of that fear.

But in any case that was only one part of my overall suggestion, so I suggest we agree to disagree on the numbers and get back on topic.

In summary, the topic being that the different bits scattered around the Island are manifestations of the Losties memories.

A silly, but easy to understand example - the Geronimo Jackson album.

We have heard Hurley (who clearly likes music) and Charlie ("an expert in all things musical") say they've never heard of them, and yet we've seen the T-Shirt in Locke's flashback. Now, it could be that TPTB are just having some fun and thought it would be cool to put it in the hatch and then put it on Eddie's T-Shirt. But even though, according to TPTB, the band does exist, the fact that neither had heard of them means that it popping up in the hatch was very strange. A lot of theories came out that the guy at the commune was Tom, or that he was a part of Dharma, etc.
My suggestion is that Eddie represented a traumatic time in Locke's life, and THAT is why the album is in there.
It was a direct manifestation of one of Locke's memories.
Remember the album cover was even the exact same thing that appeared on the T-Shirt.

And that was my idea of looking at the Island backwards, as opposed to trying to find sinister connections and explanations. The same idea can be applied to loads of things that we've been trying to find human explanantions for - Claire's lavalamp, Rousseau's song lyrics, Claire's nursery hanger, Charlie's guitar, maybe Vincent even.

I also think the Island changes "real time", and that was why Sayid hadn't seen that rope bridge before, and, many disagree, I know, but I think the ground opened up and then closed again when Smokey tried to drag Locke down that hole.

And an area I'm not 100 % convinced about, but I'm definitely keeping open as a possibility, is that these manifestations instantly formed part of the history of the Island too. An example being the Polar Bears. Walt had the comic and Michael gave Walt the stuffed Polar Bear. So, in accordance with this overall theory, maybe they were manifested on the Island as part of this memory thing, but, at the same time then came to form part of the whole Dharma mythology, with the cages and the blastdoor map.
But, as I say, that's something I'm less convinced by.

But definitely things like the hanger, the guitar, the record, etc. I think were taken direct from the Losties' memories.

The information in The DHARMA Orientation film, if you ask me that's 100% canon.


the alvar hanso orientation vid, which is independent of the island, could surely not be a deception,

The Hanso video is extraneous information to the show, until and unless it's written into the script.
That it's canon doesn't mean it's not deceptive.
The Orientation film and Pearl video are canon. Are they deceptive, to us and the Losties? Many folks think so..

lostmio >
The Hanso video is extraneous information to the show, until and unless it's written into the script.
That it's canon doesn't mean it's not deceptive.
The Orientation film and Pearl video are canon. Are they deceptive, to us and the Losties? Many folks think so..


Thanks for posting that.
That's the point I was trying to make earlier about Canon not necessarily meaning Real.
The thread's off topic again, but thanks.

I think we might be looking at The Island all wrong.

As Ben put it, we need to "change our perspective".

All of this stinks of VR, of course, which, personally, I hope ISN'T the explanation. But there are other possibilities. In the same way most of us, I think, imagine someone put that mobile in Claire's nursery on purpose - either through reading memories, Soul Catcher style, or through very in-depth research - this would just be an enormous extension of that same idea. After all, where did all of that baby furniture come from? And where did they take it between Claire's stay and her return? I think most likely it was never even there and they just have the power to make it appear to be there - remember the sign on the hospital door > "Magnetic Resonance Imagining".

It could still all be real, somewhere, somehow. But not all of what they're experiencing is.

I haven’t replied to this thread earlier. I was a regular lurker though. Some of this stuff is in the same league as my Fate-thread and I like this a lot.

Going with this idea, virtual reality might be an explanation. But that’s not all. As you said, it could be real, but not all of what they’re experiencing.

Take Hurley’s imaginary friend. Only Hurley himself could see him. And Sawyer being possessed, seemingly, by Kate’s father. These things didn’t happen in reality. It took place inside the heads of Hurley and Kate. To them, it seemed real. These kind of things happened quite a few times. Visions, dreams and the lot. To the receiver, they are so real, it can’t be seen apart from reality.

Oddly, the imagined people know things about the island (Christian leads his Jack to a safe place with flowing water, Yemi leads Eko (indirectly) to the questionmark). I argued before that that was proof of mindreading and telepathy. But that’s not the only explanation.

Have you ever been in the situation you think of something and the next second it happens? That you walk into a room you never seen before, but your sure it’s your very own living room? I have – in dreams.

What if the Losties are sharing a dream. That would be a good explanation for the dnalsI ehT theory.

I’m not saying this is the (or a) satisfactory explanation, but think about it. It would make sense to a lot of things – the things mentioned in the first post of this thread, for starters. Maybe the Others are aware they live in a dream – maybe they can tune in and out. Maybe they are lucid dreamers.

The focus on eyes could also hint at dreaming. The first shot in pilot is of Jack opening his eyes - is he entering the dream? Also eyes could point to rolling eye movements --> dreaming.

@Lucidity: I read your remarks about the Vanilla Sky-post. So TPTB ruled out a dream like state or collective mind... That would make this post kinda irrelevant...

did u include the reference to charlie finding his guitar its a really really good one. "you found it because you wanted to find it " or something


the island couldnt have 'created' the guitar from charlie's memory of it, imo.

the thing that makes each guitar unique is the sound box behind the strings, every single dimension of this, the density of the wood etc gives the nuances to the sound and a musician will know the individual sound of his guitar.

but the inside of the guitar is something that charlie would have never seen, so the island could not possibly recreate charlie's guitar and make it sound like charlie's guitar from his memory of it.

imo,
the guitar must have been charlie's actual guitar, the island just destined that it would be in the tree so as locke could show it to him at the moment he showed faith in the island. lock could have info on this from his connection to the island

I haven’t replied to this thread earlier. I was a regular lurker though. Some of this stuff is in the same league as my Fate-thread and I like this a lot.

Going with this idea, virtual reality might be an explanation. But that’s not all. As you said, it could be real, but not all of what they’re experiencing.

Take Hurley’s imaginary friend. Only Hurley himself could see him. And Sawyer being possessed, seemingly, by Kate’s father. These things didn’t happen in reality. It took place inside the heads of Hurley and Kate. To them, it seemed real. These kind of things happened quite a few times. Visions, dreams and the lot. To the receiver, they are so real, it can’t be seen apart from reality.

Oddly, the imagined people know things about the island (Christian leads his Jack to a safe place with flowing water, Yemi leads Eko (indirectly) to the questionmark). I argued before that that was proof of mindreading and telepathy. But that’s not the only explanation.

Have you ever been in the situation you think of something and the next second it happens? That you walk into a room you never seen before, but your sure it’s your very own living room? I have – in dreams.

What if the Losties are sharing a dream. That would be a good explanation for the dnalsI ehT theory.

I’m not saying this is the (or a) satisfactory explanation, but think about it. It would make sense to a lot of things – the things mentioned in the first post of this thread, for starters. Maybe the Others are aware they live in a dream – maybe they can tune in and out. Maybe they are lucid dreamers.

The focus on eyes could also hint at dreaming. The first shot in pilot is of Jack opening his eyes - is he entering the dream? Also eyes could point to rolling eye movements --> dreaming.

@Lucidity: I read your remarks about the Vanilla Sky-post. So TPTB ruled out a dream like state or collective mind... That would make this post kinda irrelevant...
It's all real. Sorry.

It's all real. Sorry.

I agree the dream-theory is a long stretch (especially if TPTB really ruled it out - they're often misquoted) but not everything is real. That can't be. Or do you think Christian, Dave, Yemi and Kate's father's ghost were real?

Hey, het,
Where you been?
I've mentioned your Fate thread like a hundred times in the last month. Make a post and bump it up the list. There's been loads of Season 3 stuff that is related.

Regarding your "Dream" ideas. The thing with "Dreams" and "Visions" is they're just the terms we use for seeing things that aren't really there. But, as I talk about on my Soul Catcher thread, through sensory control it would be evry simple to produce these effects at will and in a controlled way, i.e. controlling the content. As I mentioned in my last post on The Sewing Kit, there's more and more reason to think that the senses are going to form a large part of the Lost mystery. And in Briolette's Missing Toe (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66622) thread you can see the enormous list of references to the senses within the show.

So I see the Dreams, Visions, and Manifestations all as the same thing, with just different degrees and areas of sensory manipulation.

And, in general terms, I don't think it's VR, but I do think that elements of what the Losties are experiencing is being manipulated. As an example - not suggesting this is the case, just an example to explain the sort of thing I envisage - they could be on an Island just off the coast of a body of land that's in plain sight from the beach, but through a bit of sensory tinkering the Losties are unable to see it.

This also ties in with the Magnetic Imagine Resonancing thing that was on the door in Tom's hospital. Obviously they're not imagining everything ("obviously", because that would make for an awful ending) but maybe elements of it.

BlackLotus,
I assume you agree the Island or something on it was able to reproduce Yemi, so how could a guitar be harder to produce. The thing is that the power of suggestion is a very powerful force, and if Charlie is given his guitar and made to believe it is his guitar, then Charlie's mind would sub-consciously overlook a few technical differences.

Nothing major to add, but in that new "Lost Survival Guide" on abc.com they confirmed a large part of this theory. They said that we had seen things from the Losties' pasts like Christian Shephard, Yemi, and Kate's horse, and that's because the Island is able to manifest them, to help them on their journey. And they did actually specifically say "taken from their past" and "manifested".

I know a lot of people were already clear on that idea anyway, but there have been a lot of people on this thread that have said they didn't see it that way, so I just wanted to clarify things.

So the black smoke...

Is that the island in some way?

I would have said Yemi was manifested by the smoke.

I've not seen the Survivor Guide thingy yet, I might watch it on Sunday...

So the black smoke...

Is that the island in some way?

I would have said Yemi was manifested by the smoke.

They mentioned Kate's Horse in the same breath as Yemi and previously Gregg Nations has said that the previously unknown manifestation of Smokey was post-23rd Pslam, meaning Post-What Kate Did.

So the way I look at Damon and Carlton's comment was that the Island uses many various methods to accomplish its goals, one of them being Smokey, another that a horse ramarkably similar to the one Kate saw in her past happened to escape from the DHARMA zoo.

I hope what's taken from the "Survivor Guide" in relation to this thread is that indeed the human element of the story, the theme of redemption and second chances, is what leads to the Losties seeing things from the past on the Island.

I hope what's taken from the "Survivor Guide" in relation to this thread is that indeed the human element of the story, the theme of redemption and second chances, is what leads to the Losties seeing things from the past on the Island.

That, but there's more. The dreamt up/halucinated people lead the dreamer/the one with the vision. My guess is, that the island somehow taps into the subconscious of the Losties and use those people to convey a message or steer them in a certain way.

Jack found water and shelter through his dad. Why his dad? Because he was very strongly present in Jack's mind at the time.

Eko was given messages through visions of Yemi - his brother being strongly on his mind. There, the influence of the island (for lack of a better explanation) was very clear. Eko understood that Locke was supposed to lead Eko to the Question mark. Locke was given the final clue that led up to the discovery of Pearl Station also in a vision.

Later on, Boone pops up in Locke's vision quest. I guess he felt guilty for his death and that was the reason the island picked him/the message manifested itself through Boone.

Its all just a video game. We are going to see in the end it was just a kid playing a "sim city" like video game.

You'll seeeeeeeee


RJ

Very interesting theory.

Let me first say that I don't think that everything on the island will be explained in this way, that a person just has to will something to happen (either through their hopes or fears) and it happens, but I can see a similar idea being the explaination for some of the events on the island.

The Smoke Monster, for example, seems to be able to scan and read memories, but I wonder if it is partly made up of these memories. In otherwords, the more minds it scans and the more thoughts/memories/information it takes in, the more powerful it becomes. Maybe it has the power to bring these manifestations to life. Maybe after it scans the memories of those on the island, it has a connection to their thoughts, and if they want or fear something, it knows and can react accordingly.

Someone posted something to the effect that if everything is manifested by the thoughts of those on the island, who in their right mind was thinking about a huge pilot-eating smoke monster, but I feel that this fits right in with this theory. No one wanted to see a huge smoke monster, but it could definitely be a manifestation of their worst fears. [Like at night when everything is dark and quiet... every little noise can be heard and blown out of proportion. The house shifting slightly can be a burgler breaking in, etc...]

Someone else posted that if they can just think things and they happen, why haven't they been rescued yet? Hasn't someone wanted to be rescued bad enough for it to come true? Well, I was thinking this as well, but I wonder if the will of those who want to stay (Walt, Locke, Rose) was just more powerful than the will of those wanting to leave.

Also, to add to your list of "What ifs": What if...
Artz blew himself up because he was thinking/worrying about the dynamite going off.

I think that in this thread there is relevence to the quote by Ben, in which he says, "God doesn't know how long we've been here, John. He can't see this island any better than the rest of the world can." As much as he lies, there could be some truth to it, if applied within this thread. If everything that exists on the Island is build on the memories, wants, needs, wishes, and fears of those on the Island, then anyone outside the realm of the island would have no way of finding the Island because they wouldn't have those shared memories, wants, needs, wishes, or fears.

As far as the manifestations themselves, some are different than others, which could be used against this theory. Kate's horse, Eko's brother, Jack's dad, and Hurley's friend Dave have all been mentioned in this thread. However, there are differences to each.

Kate's horse was really on the Island, even though it was the same as one in her flashback. Sawyer saw it as well, so it was not just a vision.

Eko's brother, Yemi was seen by both Eko and Locke, but only in dreams, and then as a form of the monster, but only by Eko. I don't believe Yemi was real like the horse.

Christian Shephard was only seen by Jack, and seemed only to be a vision, so he was unlike the previous two.

Dave was different from them all in that he was the only one who appeared as a manifestation somewhere other than the Island. He was only seen by Hurley, and he had been seen in this way at the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute.

So what does any of this mean? Maybe nothing, maybe everything. Guess we'll find out eventually.



By the way, this whole theory reminds me of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes, Valley of the Shadow. A man becomes trapped in Peaceful Valley when he stops for gas and stumbles onto the secret of the town. They have the ability to make substances appear and disappear by moving matter, alter time to heal sickness and wounds, etc... with a device given to them by a wise man whose instructions were that the device (and it's secret) stays in Peaceful Valley. Once he learns the truth, he can never leave. The people try to allow him to exist as one of them in Peaceful Valley, but he only wants to escape. In the end...

the townspeople have his memory erased and he is taken back to just before the incident that started the whole process, and he is allowed to leave, never knowing what actually happened. (the viewer is led to believe that he will be killed as a last resort, but like most Twilight Zone endings, there is a twist)

By the way, this whole theory reminds me of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes, Valley of the Shadow. A man becomes trapped in Peaceful Valley when he stops for gas and stumbles onto the secret of the town. They have the ability to make substances appear and disappear by moving matter, alter time to heal sickness and wounds, etc... with a device given to them by a wise man whose instructions were that the device (and it's secret) stays in Peaceful Valley. Once he learns the truth, he can never leave. The people try to allow him to exist as one of them in Peaceful Valley, but he only wants to escape. In the end...

the townspeople have his memory erased and he is taken back to just before the incident that started the whole process, and he is allowed to leave, never knowing what actually happened. (the viewer is led to believe that he will be killed as a last resort, but like most Twilight Zone endings, there is a twist)
Dharmatologist: Whoah...very cool parallel!

That, but there's more. The dreamt up/halucinated people lead the dreamer/the one with the vision. My guess is, that the island somehow taps into the subconscious of the Losties and use those people to convey a message or steer them in a certain way.

Jack found water and shelter through his dad. Why his dad? Because he was very strongly present in Jack's mind at the time.

Eko was given messages through visions of Yemi - his brother being strongly on his mind. There, the influence of the island (for lack of a better explanation) was very clear. Eko understood that Locke was supposed to lead Eko to the Question mark. Locke was given the final clue that led up to the discovery of Pearl Station also in a vision.

Later on, Boone pops up in Locke's vision quest. I guess he felt guilty for his death and that was the reason the island picked him/the message manifested itself through Boone.

And by the way the writers refer to these 'apparitions'/visions, they seem as if they are indeed for influence and guidance. They say, paraphrased, "they see people from their past that drives them in certain directions to become better people". It seems as if this is correct.
I've had a similar outlook on these visions, along with some personal ideas of who's 'controlling' them and so forth.

It's coming together for me. While not knowing all of the secrets, I have a more grasped view on LOST rather than the skeptical confused view I had a month ago. :lipsseal:
100%
As much as he lies, there could be some truth to it,
I personally find Ben tells the truth more than he tells lies. :)
Whenever he lies, it is to trick/con/influence/guide the losties. As ironic as it may sound, he also tells the truth for the exact same reasons.

Richardstone >
So the black smoke...
Is that the island in some way?


I'm guessing so. Or, looking at slightly differently, perhaps the Island's only weirdness is Smokey, and so that's why they speak of what Smokey does as "the Island".


CrimsonRabbit >
I hope what's taken from the "Survivor Guide" in relation to this thread is that indeed the human element of the story, the theme of redemption and second chances, is what leads to the Losties seeing things from the past on the Island.


I know what you're getting at, but the base of this thread isn't the relationships, "journey", or "human element". It's what the hell is the explanation for all the stuff we're seeing that is clearly related to the relationships, "journey" and "human element".

To clarify further, I mean to say everyone knows that the show is about these people that are Lost and trying to find themselves, but the writers will, I'm sure, give us an explanation for all the weirdness that provokes this personal growth (Yemi, horses, etc.), and THAT is what I'm trying to find an explanation for here. And a big part of my theory for the explanation was confirmed in that statement from TPTB.

At its roots the show is probably about something else entirely, but I feel I was very right about at least one aspect of what is going on.

Dharmatologist,
Some very interesting ideas and questions. And glad you like the theory.
In general my idea of "willing things to happen" isn't that they can conjure up a can of Coke whenever they're thirsty. It's about SOME of the Losties possibly being able to will things to happen, but only when 110 % determined to do so - like Jack with Sarah.

But, in any case, the interesting question about Why haven't they willed a rescue plane into being? - Well, you tell me : Who wants to leave?
I think that is one of the biggest common factors between them all - none of them really had anywhere to go or, at least, didn't want to be where they were going. (except maybe Sayid).

And, like bigmouth, has said, love the Twilight Zone comparison. I believe that's one of the many cited inspirations for Lost, isn't it? The Twilight Zone in general.

But, in any case, the interesting question about Why haven't they willed a rescue plane into being? - Well, you tell me : Who wants to leave?
I think that is one of the biggest common factors between them all - none of them really had anywhere to go or, at least, didn't want to be where they were going. (except maybe Sayid).
Luc: I think you're right on target about them not wanting to leave. I note, however, that the standard objection to theories like this used to be: well, why don't they just manifest a boat to escape? Interestingly, that's precisely what happened -- Desmond brought them a boat. And don't be so sure they haven't willed a rescue into being -- i.e., Penny Widmore and the Portugese.

PS: Of all of them, I think Michael wanted to leave the most. And it appears that's precisely what happened...

You're right about the possibility of no one really wanting to leave. I mentioned Locke, Walt, and Rose who have all said at one point that they don't want to leave. You mentioned Sayid probably wanting to find Nadia, but there have been plenty of other people who want to leave... something usually winds up happening to them.

Michael, of course, wanted to leave with Walt so badly that he built two rafts, and then became a murderer to rescue his son and gain access to another boat that would get him off the Island... and now he's gone.

Jin wanted to leave so that he could come back and rescue Sun and get her off the Island.

Charlie's constantly talked about how famous he'll be once they're rescued.

Sawyer and Kate had a big feud over who would get the last spot on the raft, so they've wanted to leave (partly to get away from each other, I believe) at one time.

Jack said as much, when he told Ben, "I've got to get off this island."

But, I agree, many of them haven't just come out and said it, and many of the ones I mentioned above, may have changed their minds about the Island.

The thing is we go back to my 110 % comment before.
Who REALLY wants off the Island?
Going through some of the examples you talk about :
Jin and Sun - Jin may have been scared for Sun, but after his encounter at the airport with Shirty I'm betting a large part of him was wishing he and Sun could be free from her father. And on the Island they are.

Charlie might flirt with that idea. But he may also be afraid of what might happen if he goes back down that path - drugs, etc. He has become a man on the Island. And also there's the question of Claire - does he want to go back and see whether or not Claire stays with him?

Sawyer, like Jack, wanted off the Island because of their feelings for Kate and the idea that she was going to choose the other.
Kate only wanted on the raft because she was scared of getting caught - given the choice, I'm sure she'd rather just spend her life there, and finally be able to stop running. Think of her face in the Pilot when Jack says "You're not running now".

Michael may have been worried for his son on the Island, but I bet, on the plane, he was also petrified of what would happen back home with Walt. And Walt didn't want to move again. And, as you say, Michael might be the exception anyway because he appears to have left.

In general, I'm not saying they all CHOOSE to be on the Island, but do they really, really, 110 % want off ? I don't think so, personally.

I agree with all of that. I think that they've started to move past trying to find a way off the Island, and are now in survival mode, wanting to defend themselves against the Others so they can enjoy a more peaceful life on the Island.

I think it will be interesting to see how many of them choose to stay when/if rescue ever comes.

Nothing major to add, but in that new "Lost Survival Guide" on abc.com they confirmed a large part of this theory. They said that we had seen things from the Losties' pasts like Christian Shephard, Yemi, and Kate's horse, and that's because the Island is able to manifest them, to help them on their journey. And they did actually specifically say "taken from their past" and "manifested".

I know a lot of people were already clear on that idea anyway, but there have been a lot of people on this thread that have said they didn't see it that way, so I just wanted to clarify things.

Lucidity, as i have said before, i find this thread very interesting in the way it makes me look at things.

but i think that your statement that 'TPTB have confirmed a large part of this theory'
is rather misleading.
sure, yemi, kate's horse and Christian were visions - like you say a lot of people are clear on that.

but your Original Post says what if
The island itself, The hatch, The computer, Rousseau's map, the heiroglyphs on the countdown timer, the mobile in claire's nursery, the beehive, the polar bears and the Weather only exist because they are a
'manifestation of the Losties' thoughts and memories.'

im not sure your post about what TPTB said confirms all that.

has the theory changed as the thread has gone on ? - if so you should update the OP

as i said, i like this thread :), but i cant see how a large part of it has been proved.

BlackLotus >
Lucidity, as i have said before, i find this thread very interesting in the way it makes me look at things, but i think that your statement that 'TPTB have confirmed a large part of this theory' is rather misleading.



I don't understand why you think it's misleading.
As you yourself say, my initial premise was that these things were a "manifestation of the Losties' thoughts and memories". And TPTB have said EXACTLY that.

In what way is it misleading to say a large part of the theory has been confirmed?


sure, yemi, kate's horse and Christian were visions - like you say a lot of people are clear on that.


That's the point - a lot of people think they are "visions", but that's not the same thing at all as a "manifestation". And I have suggested here that they were manifestations, and TPTB have just said the exact same thing.

Just to clarify, in case anyone doesn't understand the distinction, put simply - a vision isn't real, it's just in the viewers mind / sight, while a manifestation is very much a real, physical form.

For me, there's definitely a confirmation that a large part of the theory is right. Not all of it, by any means. But certainly a large part of it, yeah.

I posted the Spoiler a while back but it has now happened for real. Juliet speaks of her ex getting hit by a bus, and then he gets hit by a bus.

I think what happened there in that spilt second is representative of 90 % of what is going on in Lost. So, how do we interpret this? Was it her sub-consciously "willing things to happen"?, or was it the "Mittelos" people directly?, or was it "Coincidence vs Fate"?

The other thing that came up AGAIN in NiP is the accuracy of the Others - shooting the walkie-talkie out of Kate's hand, Alex with her catapult. And as I mentioned earleir on, I think that might be very much along the same lines as Walt's knife-throwing abilities - Visualising something, and "willing it to happen".

Hard to say, Lucidity. I've always believed that the Island was responsible for the various happenings such as this. Now that this occurred off-island....I'm kinda' lost.

You can see the bus stopped at a bus-stop as Edmond is on his cell talking to his mother (Mom issues...I guess). I'd like to know how the bus gained speed so fast when it hit Edmond. Production flub?

I didn't notice any Mittelos people around during the bus scene. (Will have to rewatch.) Seems to me they'd have to be present to know exactly when they'd have a chance to set-up this bus-hitting-Edmond thing. Unless....they have some way to see in the future and set it up, somehow, through that.

Love this thread, BTW. Don't post much, but always check-in to read what's going on in here.

The other one we've got is another off-island connection. Was Ethan there in a sinister "Let's get her !" capacity, or was it just one of the many pre-Island link-ups?

The bus hitting Edmund. What I thought was strange was that when I saw the Spoilers it was through the people who do the stunts, and the stunt they showed was "Edmund" being thrown through the air. Did they decide the effect wasn't good enough (it looked pretty cool to me) or did they cahnge it because the "accident" had a very specific nature to it, and the stunt somehow didn't relfect that?

And the other interesting fact, in terms of whether it was real and what part Juliet played in it all, is that the Mittelos guy told her that he didn't even remember her saying anything about the bus. Was he just being kind? Or did that conversation not even happen? Perhaps that ties in even more with Juliet willing it to happen, as opposed to actually saying it. Or did she somehow fabricate the entire incident in her mind?
Oh, and glad you like the thread !

Oi! Nice theory here Lucid.
Read through a bunch of it (though not all 20 pages yet!). It seems to really fit all the instances of visons/manifestations. Makes me even more anxious to figure out what the heck Smokey is.

One thing it made me wonder about again was the giant statue foot that Sayid, Jin, & Sun saw. That indicated to me that there have been inhabitants of the island for a very long time. The Black Rock shipwreck also apparently happened a while ago. If we take this evidence at face value, then the Island/Smokey maybe has been messing with people's memories for a while.

So if Dharma found this interesting island that manifested things they would naturally set up shop here to do some of their research. And the electromagnet whatever that the hatch was built around was already here to also research? Or as others have hypothesized Smokey could be more closely related to the unique electromagnetic properties of the Island (they allow the manifestations somehow).

As usual more questions than answers.

And I got the impression that Mittelos was behind the bus business even though the Richard Alpert guy played dumb. Or it's still another interesting instance of fate/coincidence appearing to be caused by one of the characters thoughts/wishes.

I liked the idea that the Island just uses fate but cranks it into overdrive.

I'm sure that TPTB would make it seem more doable, but it seems like it would be pretty hard logistically for the Mittelos Bioscience people to make Edmund's accident happen the way it did, so smoothly, and when it did. The only way that I think that they could have done it so smoothly is if they could go back and forth in time and make things work out that way. As hokey as that is, I could go with that idea. On the otherhand, I also think that it seems like Juliet willed it to happen. I don't think that she is the type of person that would murder someone intentionally, but I think in the deepest part of her brain, and it was nothing that she would consciously act upon, she thought that her life would be better if Edmund did get hit by a bus and was dead...

Veridis >
Oi! Nice theory here Lucid.
Read through a bunch of it (though not all 20 pages yet!). It seems to really fit all the instances of visons/manifestations. Makes me even more anxious to figure out what the heck Smokey is.

One thing it made me wonder about again was the giant statue foot that Sayid, Jin, & Sun saw. That indicated to me that there have been inhabitants of the island for a very long time. The Black Rock shipwreck also apparently happened a while ago. If we take this evidence at face value, then the Island/Smokey maybe has been messing with people's memories for a while.


Glad you like the thread. What I think is interesting in the foot statue is that, IF there IS something that somehow created all these elements on the Island from a collective of the Losties' thoughts and fears, and that is what Smokey represents, perhaps that was what that statue represented to an ancient people that found themselves on the Island too.

I always think of Ghostbusters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters) (my favourite film as a kid - watched it like ten times at the cinema) and the Marshmallow Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:StayPuft.jpg). Basically the "Destructor" takes the form of whatever form they think of, and Ray thinks of the Marshmallow Man. So, could it be that in the 21st Century the Losties think up a Smoke Monster form, that makes sounds from their past. But hundreds of years ago a primitive people might have only visualised something like the statue.

I know it's a long shot, but I can't help coming back to the possibility.


Juniebun >
I'm sure that TPTB would make it seem more doable, but it seems like it would be pretty hard logistically for the Mittelos Bioscience people to make Edmund's accident happen the way it did, so smoothly, and when it did.


What bothers me is what I posted earlier :
"What I thought was strange was that when I saw the Spoilers it was through the people who do the stunts, and the stunt they showed was "Edmund" being thrown through the air. Did they decide the effect wasn't good enough (it looked pretty cool to me) or did they cahnge it because the "accident" had a very specific nature to it, and the stunt somehow didn't relfect that?"
Why would they remove that shot?

I also want to toss in a couple of other things here:

1. Kevlin wanted off the island and wanted to quick being a button-monkey and suddenly a sail-boat with a replacement button-monkey appears.

2. Could this be why the others are concerned about 'good' people. If the island has properties that enable people's desires to materialize, the last thing you want is people with 'bad' in them running around. This may be why Eko was killed.

dalbrect >
I also want to toss in a couple of other things here:

1. Kevlin wanted off the island and wanted to quick being a button-monkey and suddenly a sail-boat with a replacement button-monkey appears.

2. Could this be why the others are concerned about 'good' people. If the island has properties that enable people's desires to materialize, the last thing you want is people with 'bad' in them running around. This may be why Eko was killed.


Cool ideas.
The second one is especially interesting. That makes a WHOLE lot of sense.
As Kate once said : "Be careful what you wish for".

Maybe the "good people" are the people that can't will things to happen...

I agree that Juliet made the bus crash -- the copy of "Carrie" on the sister's nightstand was a dead giveaway, in my opinion. I think that the Mittelos guys knew it (and knew that she knew it) and used it as kind of a subtle blackmail. I think that the "I don't even remember you saying that" line was a way of implying, "Come with us, and we'll let this be our little secret." They played on her guilt, and her fear of her own power. I think they recruited her as much for her telekinetic ability as for her research.

lucky4me8 >
I think that the "I don't even remember you saying that" line was a way of implying, "Come with us, and we'll let this be our little secret."


Yes. That's it. I kind of had an idea in my head of what the tone was, but couldn't get it out. His "I don't remember" was exactly that, I think. "It'll be our secret", like you say, and also "We understand".

That would also explain better them turning up at the morgue - sort of confirming that they knew what SHE had done, and knew that it was the appropriate time and place to speak to her again. Maybe her mouse research drew their attention not because it showed her medical abilities, but rather because it showed her ability to make the impossible possible.

And yeah, Carrie again. And, as we know, that's Juliet's FAVOURITE book.

I really like the idea of Juliet having telekinesis - and yes, her love for Carrie supports that, and hints too at a fascinating, lonely woman who has always felt herself to be on the outside. I am convinced that the Others prize those who have the potential to develop paranormal powers - like Juliet.

However, in this one instance I am a little more prosaic, and actually think Mittelos staged the bus incident themselves, thereby feeding Juliet's own fears, insecurities and guilt; a form of emotional blackmail if you will.

Lucidity - in respect of your fascinating sewing kit thread, I think there is even more proof that this is the case, and Juliet was conned by Mittelos/Dharma (whoever this is!) into coming to the island, because of the large amount of red - signifying deception perhaps - which is featured throughout NIP. For example, when Alpert confronts her in the morgue, we see a red exit light in shot, behind Juliet, maybe indicating to us that he is deceiving her here?

Something that they all have in common: The Losties are all loners. Even though you'd think that some of them should be more involved in Life, they aren't. They are or had become introverts prior to the crash. Some very lonely and lonerish people.

Yes Juniebun, that is so very true. One of the most notable aspects of Lost has always been how few people would actually seem to miss them! And in some cases, Kate and Sawyer for example, their presence in 'civilised' society has seemingly become unwanted, superfluous even. Arguably Sayid is in a similar position. His cooperation with Allied Forces during the Gulf War would have rendered him a reviled figure by many in his homeland and yet he is regarded with suspicion and mistrust by Westerners, to be used as a tool only.

However, I'm not one who believes particularly that these folks have all been handpicked because of their social disengagement, and potentially, other attributes,(excepting someone like Juliet of course, who has been professionally headhunted).

So I have wondered if the Losties' social estrangement is more of a sad little comment from TPTB on how alienated and atomised the individual has become in modern society, how collective responsibility has faltered, or some such 'wholesome' social observation.

By the same token, TPTB have told us that we might never know why certain characters' paths in life have crossed in the past, so this would appear then to be a metaphor for the interrelation of the individual within the wider social web - affirming the 'six degrees of separation' mythology (I say mythology, because I've no idea if this is scientifically true, or simply a popular panacea for a lonely world).

I think that their sad pasts might well be a reflection of the fact that they have some kind of "power" and that distanced them from the rest of the world, even if only in their own minds. Think how Walt's "powers" affected him, and then imagine Walt as an adult - it's not hard to see how it could really mess you up.

Sort of like in the movie X-Men how they're all loners until they come together.
That's just made me see Sawyer as a sort of Wolverine character - disenchanted with life and using his "powers" for less than honourable ends, but once he becomes part of the group he opens up. And he has a beard. That's it - Sawyer is Lost's Wolverine.

I'm also convinced that the Glass Ballerina scene, where it span round and round and then fell to the floor, was Sun discovering her power to move things with her mind. And the fact that she lied to her father, and also that she hid that she spoke English, were clues to the idea that she has never admitted to anyone, probably even herself, that she is "special".

I don't understand why you think it's misleading.
As you yourself say, my initial premise was that these things were a "manifestation of the Losties' thoughts and memories". And TPTB have said EXACTLY that.

In what way is it misleading to say a large part of the theory has been confirmed?


That's the point - a lot of people think they are "visions", but that's not the same thing at all as a "manifestation". And I have suggested here that they were manifestations, and TPTB have just said the exact same thing.

Just to clarify, in case anyone doesn't understand the distinction, put simply - a vision isn't real, it's just in the viewers mind / sight, while a manifestation is very much a real, physical form.

For me, there's definitely a confirmation that a large part of the theory is right. Not all of it, by any means. But certainly a large part of it, yeah.

ok yemi and the horse were manifestations, because they were obviously physical. kate touched the horse, yemi torched eko's tent. They were also fleeting. they are not objects which have been around for whole seasons

but when you get onto things like the hatch, the computer, charlie's guitar, which i thought was mainly what your theory is about, wouldn't that would be a creation rather than a manifestation ? that, imo, hasn't been confirmed.

in the lost survivors guide that you cite, TPTB confirmed that Dharma set up shop on the island in the late 70's and built the hatches. they didn't say that it appeared to be the case, they said it was the case.

Things like Charlie's guitar, the beehive, the horse, etc. are what the theory started off about (it later also developed into Willing things to happen).
With regard to the Swan hatch it was more about what was INSIDE the hatch, as opposed to the existence of the hatch.

But the main thing they confirmed, for me, was that things like Yemi and the Horse were manifestations taken from their pasts / memories.
It's very easy for you to now say "of course" they're Manifestations, not Visions - but did you STATE that fact? I think it's fair to say that the majority of related threads have been more along the lines of them being Visions, i.e. all in their heads. There has also been a lot of talk of DNA - did Smokey take on Christian and Yemi because their bodies were on the Island? My take was that they were phyiscal manifestations and taken from their memories - a very specific statement which has been confirmed.

And, of course, that's a long way from Charlie's guitar being confirmed as the same thing, but it's still a "large part" of what I was saying, particularly, I think, the part about it being taken from their pasts / memories (I can't remember which word they used, I think it was "pasts").

So, if you think about it, the part I stated and "got right" wasn't so obvious. With all the threads going on the board, Can you think of 1 other that alluded to such a thing?

What happens is people ASSUME that we knew this all along. This effect even has a name : Hindsight Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight).


Hindsight bias, sometimes called the I-knew-it-all-along effect, is the inclination to see past events as being predictable and reasonable to expect, perhaps because they are more available than possible outcomes which did not occur. Subjects also tend to remember their own future predictions as being more accurate than they were after the fact. People are, in effect, biased by the knowledge of what has actually happened when evaluating the likelihood of what has already occurred.


And that's the beauty of this board - you put your ideas down in black and white and then there can be no question.

I think that their sad pasts might well be a reflection of the fact that they have some kind of "power" and that distanced them from the rest of the world, even if only in their own minds. Think how Walt's "powers" affected him, and then imagine Walt as an adult - it's not hard to see how it could really mess you up.

Sort of like in the movie X-Men how they're all loners until they come together.
That's just made me see Sawyer as a sort of Wolverine character - disenchanted with life and using his "powers" for less than honourable ends, but once he becomes part of the group he opens up. And he has a beard. That's it - Sawyer is Lost's Wolverine.

I'm also convinced that the Glass Ballerina scene, where it span round and round and then fell to the floor, was Sun discovering her power to move things with her mind. And the fact that she lied to her father, and also that she hid that she spoke English, were clues to the idea that she has never admitted to anyone, probably even herself, that she is "special".[/
quote]You know what? That first paragraph reminded me of the great movie "Unbreakable". That was such an intense movie! [quote]Look at Mr. Snakes On a Plane's character: Mr. Glass. He started out as such a sweet kid that was extremely intelligent and gentle. In the end, he pitied himself so strongly that it all turned inward on him and he became a villan. In a way, this could be similar to Ben's backstory... (Spoilerfonted in case someone hasn't seen the movie, but doesn't want to know anything about it...

Things like Charlie's guitar, the beehive, the horse, etc. are what the theory started off about (it later also developed into Willing things to happen).
With regard to the Swan hatch it was more about what was INSIDE the hatch, as opposed to the existence of the hatch.

But the main thing they confirmed, for me, was that things like Yemi and the Horse were manifestations taken from their pasts / memories.
It's very easy for you to now say "of course" they're Manifestations, not Visions - but did you STATE that fact? I think it's fair to say that the majority of related threads have been more along the lines of them being Visions, i.e. all in their heads. There has also been a lot of talk of DNA - did Smokey take on Christian and Yemi because their bodies were on the Island? My take was that they were phyiscal manifestations and taken from their memories - a very specific statement which has been confirmed.

And, of course, that's a long way from Charlie's guitar being confirmed as the same thing, but it's still a "large part" of what I was saying, particularly, I think, the part about it being taken from their pasts / memories (I can't remember which word they used, I think it was "pasts").

So, if you think about it, the part I stated and "got right" wasn't so obvious. With all the threads going on the board, Can you think of 1 other that alluded to such a thing?

What happens is people ASSUME that we knew this all along. This effect even has a name : Hindsight Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight).


And that's the beauty of this board - you put your ideas down in black and white and then there can be no question.

well, thanks for the diagnosis of what i thought, Lucidity. im not going to get all competitive about it, i was actually agreeing with you about yemi and the horse.

and if you want to claim ownership of that idea then go ahead, but a quick search of
smokey + physical + manifestation would prove otherwise.

what i was trying to point out was the difference between a short term manifestation and the creation of an object that we see all the time like charlie's guitar, or the interior of the swan hatch. . i don't think that they are manifestations from the losties' minds. i think that the interior of the hatches was fitted by dharma in the late 70's/ 80's and i think charlie's guitar was his guitar that the island led him ( through locke ) to find in return for his faith.

the only manifestation of smokey i can think of that possibly hung around for any length of time was dave's shoe.

Lastly, i would point out that whilst disagreeing with you i have always been polite.
may i suggest that you try and return that compliment :).

I really don't understand your reaction :

In what way did I diagnose your thought?

In what way am I being competitive?

Are you suggesting I've been rude?

And, I did the search you suggested and didn't find much.

And as to "claiming ownership", all I said was that a large part of the theory has been confirmed and that that part wasn't as patently obvious as you were suggesting it was. Not that I was the only one to say it, just that it wasn't something so obvious that it didn't need saying.
I remind you that your initial response was :
sure, yemi, kate's horse and Christian were visions - like you say a lot of people are clear on that
and I had to point out that they're not Visions, but Manifestations, so it couldn't have been that obvious.

Whether we call them manifestations or visions, are we agreed that Christian, the horse, and Dave were examples of Smokey at work? And if so, could that suggest our losties exert some control over it, even though they're unaware?

bigmouth,
The quote from TPTB was that Yemi and Kate's horse were examples of Manifestations taken from the Losties' pasts. And we've basically seen that Smokey was Yemi. So, I understood that to mean that Smokey has the capacity to read the memories and manifest itself in that form, as opposed to the Losties being able to project the form onto Smokey. That alternative is still a possibility though, I guess.

___________________________________

Just been looking at the Flashes Before Your Eyes board, and they're talking about Charlie's middle name : Hieronymus. And, as I just mentioned on The Sewing Kit, there's a Hieronymus Machine used for developing Psychic Abilities, and what caught my eye was : "From tests by Hieronymus and other independent researchers, the machine will work for 80% of the population. The percentage is even higher if you have the will and desire to be successful with the machine."
And of course "if you have the will and desire" reminded me of my idea of "willing things to happen".

b So, I understood that to mean that Smokey has the capacity to read the memories and manifest itself in that form, as opposed to the Losties being able to project the form onto Smokey. That alternative is still a possibility though, I guess.
Or what if it's a reflexive thing on both ends? That is, Smokey is a bit like a chameleon, blending in with the environment by adopting forms familiar to people...

I was talking the other day about how I always think of Smokey like the StayPuft Marshmallow man in Ghostbusters, where it takes on whatever form they think of. And looking at something totally unrelated I saw when Sawyer calls Hurley "Staypuft".
A clue?

I was talking the other day about how I always think of Smokey like the StayPuft Marshmallow man in Ghostbusters, where it takes on whatever form they think of. And looking at something totally unrelated I saw when Sawyer calls Hurley "Staypuft".
A clue?
I like that analogy!

bigmouth,
I've just remembered another similar case (of taking on a form projected by the person seeing it). On my Soul Catcher thread I mentioned the similarities between Lost and Stephen King's Dream Catcher book, and one of the things in that book is the exact same thing - the Alien takes on different forms depending on the person who is seeing it, or something along those lines.

After FINALLY seeing FBYE, I saw a lot of examples of things from the Losties' pasts (in this case Desmond, of course) which are later on the Island. I don't know if they've got nothing to do with this possibility of things being manifested on the Island, if they mean the memories / manifestations connection has more to do with the Losties living though all of this again and again, or if Desmond's "flashback" was fake somehow and the things on the Island really were just taken from his memory.

Anyway, most of the examples have been mentioned elsewhere, I'm sure, but I'm going to include them here as, in one way or another, it appears to be very relevant.

There was the Overalls Desmond was wearing to paint the flat which are then very similar to the Dharma overalls.
There was the 108 on the Alarm Clock which was clearly a reference to the hatch timer.
There was the fact that the beep in the Swan is identical to the one on Desmond's microwave.
And there was "Make Your Own Kind of Music" which just happend to end up among the Swan records too.

So, in accordance with my theory here, the idea would be that, somehow, in the creation of the Swan hatch (whether that "creation" was supernatural, deliberate, whatever) the noise for the countdown was taken directly from Desmond's memories, as was the number 108, the song, and the overalls.

And ON the Island, in my opinion we've got another example of the Island manifesting objects - Desmond's photo (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=738). Does anyone believe that photo just happened to survive the implosion? And I bet the two records that survived were "Make Your Own Kind of Music" and Locke's "Geronimo Jackson" !

So, in accordance with my theory here, the idea would be that, somehow, in the creation of the Swan hatch (whether that "creation" was supernatural, deliberate, whatever) the noise for the countdown was taken directly from Desmond's memories, as was the number 108, the song, and the overalls.

I got the feeling it was the other way around, to me it felt like this was Desmond projecting things he already knows are important, like the number 108, the hatch timer beep, etc, onto his memory.

I would think in reality the microwave timer didn't sound like the beep we know from the hatch and there would be countless times when Desmond looked at the clock when it wasn't 1:08, it's just that we saw him look when it's 1:08 because we know that it's important, and by the look on Desmundos face so did he.

All just IMO of course...

I agree it seemed he was getting flashes of the future which were caused by mundane things in the present (which was in fact the past !), but IF my theory of how certain things came to be on the island turns out to be correct then these memories could still be a part of it, even though when we saw them it was about something else entirely. The microwave beep for example - yes, it's possible that it didn't really sound the same and Desmond was just altering his own memory - but I think there's also a chance that it really did sound that way and that's where the hatch sound came from. Like when Rose said the Smokey sound was familiar to her.

What's your take on Make Your Own Kind of Music? Do you think it was actually a different song playing and he projected his favourite hatch song onto his memory? I can see how that works, but I actually think the other way round makes more sense.

Basically, either :
it was in his memory because it was in the hatch, or :
it was in the hatch beacuse it was in his memory.

And what about that photo? Coincidence?

What's your take on Make Your Own Kind of Music? Do you think it was actually a different song playing and he projected his favourite hatch song onto his memory? I can see how that works, but I actually think the other way round makes more sense.

Basically, either :
it was in his memory because it was in the hatch, or :
it was in the hatch beacuse it was in his memory.

And what about that photo? Coincidence?

I don't really think Desmond would have had any reaction at all to Make Your Own Kind of Music without first having lived through his experiences in The Swan, all the way up to turning that key, like you say it works both ways.

What about the photo? You'll have to jog my memory, I've only watched it the once so far...

Just that when he staggers through the jungle and finds the site of the Swan implosion, all that's left is his Photo and two Records (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=738).

Just that when he staggers through the jungle and finds the site of the Swan implosion, all that's left is his Photo and two Records (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=738).

And the exercise bike, the dartboard...

http://www.gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=729

He picks up a book too, so it's safe to assume some of those survived.

Also...

...the Ping Pong table survived because apparently Hurley sets up a tournament in an upcoming episode.

Plenty of stuff survived the implosion it would seem.

Oh, right. I wasn't able to see the last part of the ep and so I was basing it on the screencaps and the transcript.
But even then, it's a bit weird that what is essentially a piece of paper made it out - everything else looks pretty burnt up. And then somewhat "coincidental" that it was that precise bit of paper.

Oh, and could you tell what book he found. Not his Dickens, surely?

Oh, right. I wasn't able to see the last part of the ep and so I was basing it on the screencaps and the transcript.
But even then, it's a bit weird that what is essentially a piece of paper made it out - everything else looks pretty burnt up. And then somewhat "coincidental" that it was that precise bit of paper.

Oh, and could you tell what book he found. Not his Dickens, surely?

It was a blue book, didn't look like Our Mutual Friend but given that this looks like it could be a hardback with a dustjacket it's possible...

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Ourmutualfriend2.jpg

I don't think it's that weird the photo was unscathed, we saw it because it's an important object and it played a pivotal role in the episode, but because so much stuff made it more-or-less intact I couldn't say for certain that only objects that Desmond had a connection to survived.

Just that when he staggers through the jungle and finds the site of the Swan implosion, all that's left is his Photo and two Records (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=738).

And the exercise bike, the dartboard...

http://www.gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=729

Hey! The records, the dartboard, the excercise bike wheel.....all circles! Ms. Hawkins broach, the clock faces, the old scuba helmet, the globe in the antique store...all circles. Many....many references here indicating a "cycle" of some sort, don't you think?

Addition: Just remembered the ring Des threw into the water.....another circle.

seaque,
As I already said on the other thread you mentioned this, I definitely don't think this was a coincidence. Ms Hawking's "Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroborous)" brooch is obviosuly the thing that explains what the significance is, but very good catch on the other objects - that also puts the hatch implosion into the same realms. I'll have to mention it on the 108 Days thread too.

Getting back to the main topic of the thread - Richardstone and I were discussing yesterday Desmond's flashback and the fact that elements on the Island were present in his memory / fb, or, vice versa, elements from his memory were present on the island.

Richard suggested that Desmond was taking things from the island (like the 108 clock, the beep, etc.) and sub-sconsciously implanting them on his memory. While, along the lines of this theory, I suggest maybe the reason the Swan timer makes that precise beep is that the noise was taken from Desmond's memory. In the same way the reason Make Your Own Kind of Music was among the hatch records was because Desmond had a memory of it from pre-Island.

So, as I said then, I think there are basically two options :
These things were in his memory because they were in the hatch, or :
They were in the hatch because they were in his memory.

Another, more complex example of something that might have been taken from memory is Tom's picture in Widmore's office. In terms of timing Tom probably hadn't even painted it when Desmond was in that office, so there are only two explanations for me :
A time anomaly, or
The fb was a Smokey / Island induced Vision and the memory of that picture was taken from Claire's memory.

Maybe, the things that appear in Desmond's flashback and on the Island are some kind of example of a twist or wrinkle in time. Somehow, these items are in the past and present. Could there be many groups (or a few groups of people) of people on the Island, but separated by time? There was some discussion about things like this in the LOyal to the queST Thread when the old shows "Mirror, Mirror" and "Mirror, Mirror II" were brought up. I guess that what I mean is kind of connected to the idea that time is a straightline and the past, present and future of the Island, on the Island, is happening at the same time, but they're separated by the time that's between them? Well, an example of this is the Black Rock being around in 2004 on the Island. Possibly, the past and present have become tangled...

Juniebun >
Could there be many groups (or a few groups of people) of people on the Island, but separated by time?


I've often thought something similar. That there are 2 or more groups of Losties in terms of where or when they come from. The thing that got me thinking was Geronimo Jackson. It seemed significant to me that they put the two "music experts" in the hatch to have a conversation about how neither of them had ever heard of Geronimo Jackson, and then show us Locke's fb where (or when) Geronimo Jackson clearly DOES exist. The other similar example is Apollo bars. Kate and co. had never heard of them and yet both Juliet and Desmond have had Apollo bar adverts pop up in there fbs. So, I wondered if all this might be a clue to these possibilities of different timelines, parallel universes, etc.

I didn't notice the advertisements for the Apollo Bars in the fbs. That's a good catch. I like the idea that the reason that some things are shown in some scenes and not others is because they are things that only exist in different timelines or parallel universes.

Okay, I know there are loads of my threads on the list today, so I'm a bit embarrassed to post here too, but I just saw this and it's AMAZING.

This is a TOTAL Spoiler of the upcoming episode, you have been warned :


If this Spoiler is true I think it basically proves my theory that certain things on the Island were WISHED into being.
On this Spoiler page (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/03/insidercoop-man-from-tallahassee.html), it says the following conversation takes place between Locke and Ben :


Ben :
Let me put it in a way you’ll understand.
Picture a box. You know something about boxes, don’t you John?
Somewhere on this island there is a very large box.
Whatever you imagine, whatever you wanted to be in it,
when you opened that box there it would be.



and then in the end :


Ben : Are you ready to see what was in the box?

Cooper is sitting tied to a chair with duct tape over his mouth

Locke : Dad?

Yes, I saw it and I agree, Lucidity! *Runs off, face red, to go sit with the other bad kids that red the summary of tonight's show!* :redface: :redface: :redface:

Yes, I saw it and I agree, Lucidity! *Runs off, face red, to go sit with the other bad kids that red the summary of tonight's show!* :redface: :redface: :redface:
Me too!

Thanks, bm and junie.

When I saw it I just couldn't believe what I was reading.
Such a total confirmation of this sort of thing going on. TO WHAT EXTENT that is the explanation of things on the Island still remains to be seen - is it just a few bits and pieces, or practically everything? - but very, very cool either way.

I can't wait to see this ep. :jump1:

Okay, I know there are loads of my threads on the list today, so I'm a bit embarrassed to post here too, but I just saw this and it's AMAZING.

This is a TOTAL Spoiler of the upcoming episode, you have been warned :


If this Spoiler is true I think it basically proves my theory that certain things on the Island were WISHED into being.
On this Spoiler page (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/03/insidercoop-man-from-tallahassee.html), it says the following conversation takes place between Locke and Ben :



and then in the end :





Basically, this is what I meant in my fate-thread as well. I used, amongst others, the example with Hugo. When he gave up his stash of food, the food-drop came, because deep in his heart, he still wished to be satisfied/comforted with food.

I can't wait to see this epi!

Okay, I know there are loads of my threads on the list today, so I'm a bit embarrassed to post here too, but I just saw this and it's AMAZING.

This is a TOTAL Spoiler of the upcoming episode, you have been warned :


If this Spoiler is true I think it basically proves my theory that certain things on the Island were WISHED into being.
On this Spoiler page (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/03/insidercoop-man-from-tallahassee.html), it says the following conversation takes place between Locke and Ben :



and then in the end :





Yes indeed-ie! My few measly posts on this thread didn't have much to offer, but, I was totally on-board with your thoughts on this. (I soiled...I mean...spoiled myself too. :rolleyes: )

I still haven't been able to see the ep.
So, does it appear that Cooper really was "willed" into being?
Or did it look more like a con?

Over on the ep-specific thread there's mixed feelings - some saying Cooper was on the plane to begin with, others that it's just a Smokey con, and others that the Island does indeed have the power to manifest the Losties' thoughts, i.e. what this thread proposes.

I still haven't been able to see the ep.
So, does it appear that Cooper really was "willed" into being?
Or did it look more like a con?

Over on the ep-specific thread there's mixed feelings - some saying Cooper was on the plane to begin with, others that it's just a Smokey con, and others that the Island does indeed have the power to manifest the Losties' thoughts, i.e. what this thread proposes.

Ive just seen the ep, ( i actually managed to avoid reading the spoiler too ):angel:

its not really clear how he got there, what ben said about the box was whilst he was manipulating locke, but we have known for a long time that the island can manifest things from the losties memories so in a way we know it's true.

Cooper could have been a vision/manifestation
some people say he was on the plane ( we saw the back of his head )
or i spose he could have been an 'other' and part of the con.

need to see it again
my take on it was that the island bought cooper there after the planecrash. when smokey/the island met locke there was obviously a connection. perhaps that was the island's 'present' to locke.
does anyone remember a preview when we saw sawyer hiding and we heard a plane fly over really low ? im not sure it actually made it onto the episode but that could have been the plane with cooper in it coming down.

I still haven't been able to see the ep.
So, does it appear that Cooper really was "willed" into being?
Or did it look more like a con?

Over on the ep-specific thread there's mixed feelings - some saying Cooper was on the plane to begin with, others that it's just a Smokey con, and others that the Island does indeed have the power to manifest the Losties' thoughts, i.e. what this thread proposes.

Hi Lucidity,

First of all, big props on your theory seeming to have a lot of validity at this point! :biggrin:

About the episode... bascially, all we have to go on at this point is Ben's word. But IMO, he is telling the truth. We've already seen Kate's horse, Sayid's cat, Christian Shephard, and more. We know that Locke has been healed, and Ben appears to be genuinely baffled by this occurance. Ben knows the island is 'special' but he doesn't seem to understand the extent of it's powers - as Locke does.

So, IMO, the big questions at this point are...

1. How many of the things we've seen so far have come out of the Box? or... how many of them are only Smokey deceptions... or Is Smokey related to how the Box works?

2. We've seen that the island has healed John, Rose, (maybe Sun?) without using the Box per se. Does the island really "need" the Box, or can it give you your depest desires/fear without using the Box?

also, not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but this whole thing with "the Box" reminds me of The Mirror of Erised from the Harry Potter books, except that instead of showing you your deepest desires, it actually gives it to you.

By the way, I don't think that there is a literal box on the Island. I think that Ben, if he was telling the truth, was simplifying things for Locke and the box as an analogy was a cool connection to Locke's past for the writers to use. I think that if there is something on the Island that can do what Ben was telling Locke, well, it's the Island itself more so than a box somewhere on the Island that's capable of doing this stuff.

But...I wonder if Cooper was recruited by Richard Alpert to come to the Island and when he got there, things didn't happen as he thought that they would - meaning that what they supposedly wanted him for, well, didn't happen and he ended up how we saw him. I can't tell if there is a more pragmatic/practical reason for everything that has happened or if it's more mystical. Then again, we have seen all these crazy things on the Island...gah!

dz77,
You forgot question 3 : Will Jack be willing to do the surgery?
( Locke : "You want your damned 30 dollars back? I want my kidney back!" )

And thanks dz and BL for explaining the scene a bit better.
And thanks dz for the "props" too.

My take now, and as I say - I haven't seen the ep yet, is that what seems significant is that Yemi, Christian, etc. were from their pasts, but not necessarily something they might have desired. Whereas Cooper, knowing Locke's obsessive nature, I could imagine the opportunity to speak to him would be something very much in Locke's wishes. And Sawyer's too, right? We assume from the Tallahassee comment that he's the real Sawyer too, right?

And my thinking from the beginning has always been that the Island itself is what is able to make these things happen, so I'd GUESS "the box" was nothing more than a metaphor. I mean, obviously there's not really a box, but I mean I think it's a metaphor in the sense that there isn't any one thing that makes this happen, but rather the nature of the Island itself.

And my thinking from the beginning has always been that the Island itself is what is able to make these things happen, so I'd GUESS "the box" was nothing more than a metaphor. I mean, obviously there's not really a box, but I mean I think it's a metaphor in the sense that there isn't any one thing that makes this happen, but rather the nature of the Island itself.
Yes, Luc, that's how I took it and I saw it last night...;)

I think that you're right on here...

Yeah, Junie, we posted before at the same time, and I wanted to edit my post and mention that you'd just said the same thing but I'm having trouble editing today.

dz77,
You forgot question 3 : Will Jack be willing to do the surgery?
( Locke : "You want your damned 30 dollars back? I want my kidney back!" )

And thanks dz and BL for explaining the scene a bit better.
And thanks dz for the "props" too.

My take now, and as I say - I haven't seen the ep yet, is that what seems significant is that Yemi, Christian, etc. were from their pasts, but not necessarily something they might have desired. Whereas Cooper, knowing Locke's obsessive nature, I could imagine the opportunity to speak to him would be something very much in Locke's wishes. And Sawyer's too, right? We assume from the Tallahassee comment that he's the real Sawyer too, right?

And my thinking from the beginning has always been that the Island itself is what is able to make these things happen, so I'd GUESS "the box" was nothing more than a metaphor. I mean, obviously there's not really a box, but I mean I think it's a metaphor in the sense that there isn't any one thing that makes this happen, but rather the nature of the Island itself.

Right, Ben seemed to be using 'the Box' as a metaphor for something that is obviously beyond words to describe to Locke at this point.
But he did say "somewhere on this island is a very large box", which makes it sound like something real that is located at a specific place on the island. I don't think he was saying that "the Island is like a box"

Ok let's say, at this point, that the Box is real.

I would speculate that it was been around since ancient times, and that Dharma did not invent it, rather, that Dharma may have uncovered it in the process of doing their experiments. So that the box is not so much a technological invention, but more of a place where the islands powers are concentrated?? Perhaps Hanso even knew about the Box pre-Dharma, and used Dharma as a cover?

But...I wonder if Cooper was recruited by Richard Alpert to come to the Island and when he got there, things didn't happen as he thought that they would - meaning that what they supposedly wanted him for, well, didn't happen and he ended up how we saw him. I can't tell if there is a more pragmatic/practical reason for everything that has happened or if it's more mystical. Then again, we have seen all these crazy things on the Island...gah!

that would be deliciously ironic junie after what ben said to sawyer

to gain a con-mans respect, first you have to con him !

dz77 >
But he did say "somewhere on this island is a very large box", which makes it sound like something real that is located at a specific place on the island. I don't think he was saying that "the Island is like a box"


In that case, I agree, it probably is something actually ON the Island as opposed to the Island itself. And to be honest, I prefer it that way, in terms of the show and an explanation. It seems more sci-fi, less mystical.

Ok let's say, at this point, that the Box is real.

I would speculate that it was been around since ancient times, and that Dharma did not invent it, rather, that Dharma may have uncovered it in the process of doing their experiments. So that the box is not so much a technological invention, but more of a place where the islands powers are concentrated?? Perhaps Hanso even knew about the Box pre-Dharma, and used Dharma as a cover?

totally.

i agree that the box was a metaphor although it's likely that the islands powers arent evenly distributed ( like the em that dharma dug for at the swan )

on one of the dvd extras they said that dharma knew the island had 'unique' propererties and thats why they set up shop there ( not the exact quote )

BlackLotus,
Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense. Somewhere on the island there's a hatch that channels that aspect of the Island's powers. From the Sewing Kit, we've long imagined that the Hydra might be the station that channels (or at least studied) the Island's healing properties.

totally.

i agree that the box was a metaphor although it's likely that the islands powers arent evenly distributed ( like the em that dharma dug for at the swan )

on one of the dvd extras they said that dharma knew the island had 'unique' propererties and thats why they set up shop there ( not the exact quote )

Hmm, here's another take on it just to consider the other possibilities... sorry I'm kinda thinking out loud here and maybe contradicting earlier thoughts.

Let's say 'the Box' actually is a bit more metaphorical than I first thought. The Box gives you what you want, but things don't just "materialize" out of thin air... the Box actually brings the things you desire in more of a practical way.

Obviously, the Box is not so simple to use as 1-2-3, or Ben could have 'wished' for a spinal surgeon and popped one out of the Box. So, instead, Ben desires a spinal surgeon... and "the Box" arranges for one to fall out of the sky.

Bascially, I'm just restating Lucidity's original post here, but working in this Box idea. So that instead of 'the Island' making things happen, there is some mysterious "Box" that is making things happen on the Island?? (sorry if this sounds like nonsense:undecide: )

I literally just watched the episode and I definitely thought that was the real Anthony Cooper at the end, I don't think you would have to beat, bound and gag something the island manifested, Cooper was "The Man From Tallahassee" I guess...

The whole box thing has a grain of truth to it I suppose, we've seen things from memory appear on the island (Cerberus Related Activity?), but I think in this case Ben was using the things he knew about Locke (box factory) to trick him, just like Alex said, I don't think it's a case of "whatever you wish for" which is how Ben made it sound.