Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
Alfred Tennyson


From the Spoilers we know that in the upcoming episode Juliet is going to reveal how she was recruited and brought to the island exactly 3 years, 2 months and 23 days ago. And as I'm sure you've all already read, doing the maths, this takes us back to the 9 / 11 terrorist attacks.

But, from the numerous Spoilers that have come out, it would appear that there is no reference to the tragedy itself in the episode.

So, what was the point of specifying a date for us to do the math and think, Wow, that was the same date as the 9 / 11 attacks, if it then doesn't appear within the show?

I think there has to be a part of the overall storyline which this would form part of.
So, my theory is that whoever brings these people to the Island, Juliet included, for one of several reasons I can think of, can only bring people who were going to die anyway, and Juliet was going to die in the terrorist attack.

The reasons could be the typical Time Travel issues of not changing anything that could affect the course of humanity - the Butterfly Effect and all that. Think "A Sound of Thunder" when they could only kill dinosaurs that were about to die anyway.
And / Or it could be more to do with tiny factors that will eventually lead to a given outcome, i.e. the Valenzetti Equation.

The problem is that Juliet was in Miami. But she had just made a major scientific breakthrough, so a trip to New York, had these people not turned up and offered her the job in "Portland", would not be out of the question.
(And I say "Portland" is going to be a play on words with "Ports" or "Portals", but let's not get into that now.)

The interesting thing with this possibility is the other "arrivals". They've all arrived from precarious situations - Rousseau said their boat was being smashed against rocks; Desmond we saw in that massive storm, and then washed up on the beach; and the Losties, well we know what happened there - perhaps that is why in the original transmission Boone picked up it said "There were no survivors of Flight 815" : they're not dead (as TPTB have said over and over) they were saved right before they would have died anyway, but that's why the rest of the world would think they're dead as opposed to missing. They were clutched from the Jaws of Death.

This is an interesting topic, Luc. I think that someone more intelligent than I am could give a better, more intriguing answer, but...here are my ramblings...notice that I said "ramblings" verus answers...by the way, awhile back, Todell posted her thoughts on 9/11 and LOST and although there were a lot of people that thought it was a great post, there were a lot of people who took offense to it. I thought that it was a great theory. I should PM her to get her ideas. I think that I will...

I don't know if I would have come up with the idea that you did for the reason that Ethan the other guy (It's supposedly someone that we haven't seen or met, yet. I wonder what role that he will play in the show? By making him someone that we haven't seen or met, yet, it keeps things about Ethan and why he wanted to recruit Juliet a secret. Maybe, the episode will reveal more about Ethan and the other guy...) wanted to bring Juliet to the Island. What I know from the spoilers, or what I think that I know from the spoilers, is that she had just discovered how to get a male mouse pregnant. That is quite a discovery, I must say! As other people have said, it makes me think that the Others had some problems with fertility on the Island. Did Ben want Juliet to come to the Island and impregnate him and the other male Others? What was wrong with the females and the old-fashioned way of reproducing? Obviously, the Others wanted Juliet on their team, so to speak...unless Ethan and the other guy were from another group that's on the Island...as for why she has been on the Island the amount of time that she has and its connection to 9/11, I'm LOST. How did she get to the Island? Private jet? She must have taken off before the news of the event became known worldwide. She probably doesn't know that it even happened. One thing that just jumped into my mind is that, like you said, some kind of time warp was involved, and the Others wanted to get her out of the country before 9/11 happened because they wanted her and her skills on the Island before anything more happened. Maybe, in some dimension, more than what happened happened? I don't think TPTB will get into that...it's too tough a topic for most people. I think that it might be that TPTB just wanted to bring a focus of some sort back to 9/11. Maybe, when she tells Jack how long she's been on the Island, he'll bring up 9/11? I don't think so, though. She's possibly going to be a person that we get to know on the show that doesn't have a frame of reference for 9/11. I don't know how that will play into the show, though...

Hey Junie and Lucidity, and thanks for the heads-up about this thread, J. I have been trying to avoid spoilers, but, you know, sometimes it's worth it.

Here's the 9/11 thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=38878) Junie was referring to earlier. A couple things:

1. My thread is more about how I think the writers formulated Lost as a myth for 9/11 and the post-9/11 world (thanks to CrimsonRabbit's wonderful Watchmen thread that put words to what I had been trying to say for some time).

In that vein, I don't know that, having learned the painful way, that we'll ever really learn what the connection is between Juliet being recruited and sent to the island that day, and 9/11. I suspect the date is given to us as one more little clue that will never be answered fully. Instead, it will be one more arrow pointing our attention to that awful date, and keeping some part of our focus on the event.

There have been a handful of other events on the show that took place in 2001: namely, Kate blew up her dad, Desmond crashed into the island, Jack met Sarah, and according to the blast door map, there was a failure of the Dharmatel intranet. It could just be one more (albeit more blatant) 9/11 allusion, intended to catch the attention of those of us who pay attention to such details, but to soar above the heads of most people. If it is simply a 9/11 allegory, perhaps it could be a suggestion that The Others = Al Qaeda, and Juliet was recruited and sent on her mission that day.

2. However, all that said, I really dig the idea of taking people who were supposed to be dead already. Don't forget, "dead already" (http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/recurring_themes/recurring_phrases/otherphrases.htm#dead%20already) is a phrase that has been repeated on the show. Additionally, it fits neatly into all those maddening purgatory allusions that litter the show.

Interesting thought, Lucidity!

I cannot wait to find out how and of course why juliet came to be on the beloved island.soooooo excited.

TPTB could just never refer to the 9/11 attacks. I would never put them to that. Maybe if in one of the flashbacks they made a time reference to it or something with a character, it would be one thing, similar to the Red Sox baseball game. But it is just just a sensitive and complicated allusion... Lost could never bring the mythology down to symbolize or reference a parallel storyline.

annie_monica >
TPTB could just never refer to the 9/11 attacks. I would never put them to that. Maybe if in one of the flashbacks they made a time reference to it or something with a character, it would be one thing, similar to the Red Sox baseball game. But it is just just a sensitive and complicated allusion... Lost could never bring the mythology down to symbolize or reference a parallel storyline.


I've always said the exact same thing, both about 9 / 11 and Tsunami suggestions, but the Spoiler doesn't leave much room for doubt - 9 / 11 IS going to be referenced.

And that's the point I was going to make to Todell and Juniebun, as well.
One thing is to use 9 / 11 as any part of the Dharma / Hanso story, which would most definitely, in my opinion, be totally wrong, or even as a basis for the human element (as, I think, Todell's thread suggested), but another is to make a reference to it as no more no less than a historical event.

The very inspiration for my theory is precisely the point that TPTB seem to be referencing 9 / 11 (through the time period Juliet gives) but without actually making a direct, overt reference within the show. I wondered what the point would be, and that is what lead me to this theory - that Juliet was taken to the Island because she was going to die that very day anyway, so her abscence wouldn't affect any Butterfly Effect / Valenzetti Equation type of thing.

And remember Juliet is just one character. I think it would be a very subtle inclusion of 9 / 11. I mean, if ALL the Losties appeared on the Island and it later turned out they had all been saved from one of the hijacked planes, that would be a major incorporation of the events. But this Juliet thing, I see it as more of a "nod of the head", a recognition of the fact that it was a world-changing moment and event.

I think that the fact that they can make such an inclusion is also a demonstration of the level of social reference that Lost has come to represent.


Juniebun >
She must have taken off before the news of the event became known worldwide. She probably doesn't know that it even happened. One thing that just jumped into my mind is that, like you said, some kind of time warp was involved, and the Others wanted to get her out of the country before 9/11 happened because they wanted her and her skills on the Island before anything more happened.


That's how I'm picturing it. That she left before it happened. But if we assume the Others have contact with the outside world I'd guess she found out eventually.
Just a total shot in the dark, but maybe that's what she was crying about that day before the bookclub.
But I think it could be that the Others and Craphole are in the future, and that's how they knew what was going to happen, or, what I think is more likely, that they're only able to see the future (sometimes) and that's how they knew they could take Juliet.


Todell >
2. However, all that said, I really dig the idea of taking people who were supposed to be dead already. Don't forget, "dead already" (http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/recurring_themes/recurring_phrases/otherphrases.htm#dead%20already) is a phrase that has been repeated on the show. Additionally, it fits neatly into all those maddening purgatory allusions that litter the show.

Interesting thought, Lucidity!


Thanks. And that's the point here, or the suggestion I'm making. Simply that the people brought to the Island were clutched from the Jaws of Death. They were about to die anyway.
And thanks for the "already dead" reminder. I hadn't associated that with this idea.


In conclusion I'd just say that, if possible, I'd like to avoid the issue of whether or not TPTB are right to be referencing 9 / 11 or not. You can check my posts on the various threads regarding the Tsunami and 9 / 11, and I have always been very vocal in my statements that Lost couldn't go there. But first, this isn't my idea, it's fact - Lost has "gone there", but second, I think it has done it in a very subtle way.

So, what was the point of specifying a date for us to do the math and think, Wow, that was the same date as the 9 / 11 attacks, if it then doesn't appear within the show?

I think it might just be another hidden clue/strange coincidence like all the others that are intended to clutter up our brains and divert our attention from the real clues...:)

More seriously, though, I think TPTB have only specified a date for us, the spoiler fans and theory lovers rather than us, the general Lost viewing public. All the 'non-internet' Lost viewers will see is Juliet saying she's been on the island for 3 years, 2 months, and 23 days. They aren't looking for a link to a 'world catastrophe' like we were. Unless they specifically mention it in the episode, I don't think everybody would remember the current Lost date is early Dec 2004. Some people might think to do the math, but alot of people (myself included) wouldn't. If they wanted to make 9/11 a plot point at this stage, I think they would make it more obvious.

(of course, all my ideas tend to be wrong, so this one probably is too....:) )

ETA:

............. TPTB seem to be referencing 9 / 11 (through the time period Juliet gives) but without actually making a direct, overt reference within the show

I think you've just managed to say what I tried to but more eloquently and in just one sentence....:)

Luna,
I think the inclusion could have two goals.

First, us Lost Geeks worked it out in like 2 minutes, and so it's something for us to work with, and, for the non-obsessed TV viewer, if and when the 9 / 11 reveal happens, Juliet's reference is there as a cool "Hey, it was there all along and I didn't spot it" moment.
I'm 100 % sure that there are Foilers hidden within the show, otherwise known as Sawyer's Fish Biscuits / Red Herrings. But I bet there are also loads of clues that will only make sense at the end. And when we do get the final answer(s), it'll be just as much fun watching it all again spotting the ones we didn't pick up on.

But remember that Juliet has given a very, very specific date, and TPTB know full well we keep track of the date, so there's no coincidence, or reading too much into things. They've given us that date for a reason.

I think it might just be another hidden clue/strange coincidence like all the others that are intended to clutter up our brains and divert our attention from the real clues...:)I like this line of thinking, Luna. It could just be an interesting diversion to get our attention away from the real clues, like you said...that's definitely something to think about. I wouldn't be surprised if after Juliet mentions the dates, there is no more reference to 9/11...

By the way, thanks for your input, Todell...

I think that's very likely - that we'll hear no more (or little more) about 9 / 11.

But it was still there for a reason.

That's why this thread isn't about 9 / 11.

It's about whether or not the Losties, Desmond, Juliet, Rousseau and her crew, Henry Gale, were all able to be brought to the island because they were about to die.
We assume they were all in a similar geographical location when they were in their respective crashes and storms, but maybe they weren't at all.

The inspiration for the theory was the 9 / 11 Spoiler, but that's the extent of its involvement.

Oh course TPTB *KNOW* we will examine everything with a magnifying glass.

Giving us a very specific date could be something so obvious that it has to be a red herring. The ordinary viewer will miss it but only us geeks will get it. It could be a very specific foiler aimed at only the geeks.

TPTB are a real sneaky lot ... remember they are also responsible for many of the foilers that are out there just to keep us slightly disoriented.

I really can't see this being a red herring though.

For them to touch upon 9 / 11 wouldn't have been a simple decision, I'm sure, and it must have involved a lot of debate and decision making.
They will have had to explain in great detail to their bosses how they were planning to go about it, and to what extent.

So, personally, I'm sure they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble just to put it in there as a Foiler.

And I think that also means it must have a significant part to play in the story, otherwise it just wouldn't have been worth risking any potential backlash.

But I think everyone is focusing too much on the 9 / 11 part of this theory.
As I said before, that's not what this theory is about.

We saw the Losties on board a plane that had just been split in two.
Think about them, and the possibility that were saved from certain death.

Or Desmond on his boat in the storm - even before I thought of this possibility, I had always thought it was strange how they cut from that storm scene to Desmond on the beach.

Rousseau described something very similar.

Juliet's "event" would just be one small part of the theory.

I usually agree with a lot that you post, Lucidity, but I don't think that I agree that the Losties (or some of them) were put on the plane because they would have died in 9/11 or in another situation around that timeframe. I think that some of the Losties are connected to the DI and THF or their parents were connected. I think because of that connection and that they have special abilities is why they were brought to the Island.

Speaking of LOST Geeks, I think that TPTB would be right here with us, in the trenches, if they weren't TPTB. I have a feeling that they have crafted all kinds of details behind the various storylines that don't necessarily show up on the boob tube. They might show up in things like TLE or, if LOST Geeks like us work hard enough to dig them up, though...

Juniebun,
I understand you not agreeing about the Losties being saved, because you see their connections and pasts as more important to the story.
But just to claify a point, I'm not suggesting the Losties were saved from 9 / 11, or that they were put on the plane to be saved. My suggestion here is that, for whatever reason, they were on the plane, there was a mid-air break-up and THAT is what they were saved from.

Whether certain people knew the plane would break up that way, and perhaps knew these people would be saved is still open for interpretation.

But, yeah, just wanted to clarify that the only person who I think was saved from 9 / 11 is Juliet, and that part is based purely on the Spoilers we've seen. The rest of them were going about their lives when 9 / 11 happened, and flight 815 came much later.

Juniebun,
I understand you not agreeing about the Losties being saved, because you see their connections and pasts as more important to the story.
But just to claify a point, I'm not suggesting the Losties were saved from 9 / 11, or that they were put on the plane to be saved. My suggestion here is that, for whatever reason, they were on the plane, there was a mid-air break-up and THAT is what they were saved from.

Whether certain people knew the plane would break up that way, and perhaps knew these people would be saved is still open for interpretation.

But, yeah, just wanted to clarify that the only person who I think was saved from 9 / 11 is Juliet, and that part is based purely on the Spoilers we've seen. The rest of them were going about their lives when 9 / 11 happened, and flight 815 came much later.Ah...okay...I thought that you thought that the Losties would have died in 9/11 (or another event in that timeframe) and that's why it was okay for whomever to put them on the plane and bring them to the Island for whatever reason. So, if someone or a some group of people wanted to save the Losties from the plane crash that was known as flight 815, that means that they had to have known about it ahead of time (obviously, I guess). This sounds callous, but why this group care? Most people feel bad when they hear about a plane crash or something similar, but why did this group of people (The Others or the other group on the Island or someone else entirely?) become so interested in the Losties? Was it just a random plan crash with people on board that had no connection to the DI or THF and Ben (or whomever) saw that it would happen and wanted to save them so that they could help repopulate the Island? Someone obviously knew that Juliet was special, at least in terms of being a great scientist and brought her to the Island...so they did their homework there. Did they know who every Lostie was, too? I have always thought so, more or less, but this has given me something to think about in terms of I could believe that Ben or the other group on the Island knew through their special abilities that the plane was going to crash and they also knew that they could someone save them from dying in the crash...or at least somehow make the crash less devasting...or make the landing/crash start to happen closer to the water, thereby saving more lives...:confused:

Well, the way I see it there are two ways they could get their information and there are two reasons they could be taking the Losties in this way. There are sure to be more possibilities, but these are the ones I see as most interesting and valid.

Information :
As I said in my original post, either they are taking these people from the past, right before they were going to die. This wouldn't be "time travel" in the usual sense, more like a time portal (Not in PORT land) that they can pull these people through.
Or, they have the ability to foresee these events and that's how they do it.
What I find interesting about the time portal idea is that these people didn't die sat on the toilet, they would have died in ways that would have appeared in newspapers, etc. making them easy to track down.

Reason for taking them this way:
It could be that they're taking them right before they were going to die, so as not to interfere with the natural course of events - avoiding the Butterfly Effect.
Or, not as interesting, but it could simply be that they're doing it this way so as to avoid attention being drawn. If that were the case they could have deliberately got these people on the plane that they knew was going to crash, but just as a cover.


In general, I've always thought the Others were only interested in a handful of the Losties.

There is nothing from any coach 'passengers' indicating that they know of 9/11
The vague references Shannon not even directly reporting bags left alone by "an Arab" but only to show Boone she could cause a commotion.
Boone referenced The Patriot Act but he is painted as a flakey character with not the best record for getting things right. He could have been refering to another legislation
What would you have done in Shannon's situation in a post 9/11 airport?
I don't accept the info from the computer because it could be controlled.
Now are we to take Juliets word for a time frame?

It's strange that the Losties haven't mentioned 9/11 in some way since the show began. If the plane crashed on September 22nd, 9/11 was very new. I don't remember anyone talking about it...ever. I know it seems naive, but I think that I believe Juliet about the timeframe.

ETA: Just for the hallibut, I'm posting a link to where there is a list of why the Losties weren't meant to be on the plane. The reasons for each person not to be on the plane are somewhat open to interpretation, though. Hmmm...I wonder if the reasons that the Losties weren't supposed to be on the plane is because Fate knew that it was going to crash and Fate didn't want the Losties to die so it did what it could to try and stop them from getting on the plane. Maybe, Fate isn't the right word here...

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Flight_815

coupons,
I think you might have misunderstood. There's no suggestion that the Losties were in any way connected to the 9 / 11 events, not even in terms of the year in which their crash happened. Only Juliet.
As I Keep saying, this thread isn't about 9 / 11, it's about the possibility that those that are brought to the island were about to die - but each in their own circumstances.


Juniebun >
It's strange that the Losties haven't mentioned 9/11 in some way since the show began. If the plane crashed on September 22nd, 9/11 was very new. I don't remember anyone talking about it...ever. I know it seems naive, but I think that I believe Juliet about the timeframe.


Well the date was close, but three years had passed since the 9 / 11 incidents.
And Sawyer did accuse Saydi of being a terrorist, so that was also a vague allusion.

Oh God. I've just realised that's going to get people thinking I'm saying the answer to lost is 9 / 11-related again. I'm not, people, okay? ONLY JULIET.

coupons,
I think you might have misunderstood. There's no suggestion that the Losties were in any way connected to the 9 / 11 events, not even in terms of the year in which their crash happened. Only Juliet.
As I Keep saying, this thread isn't about 9 / 11, it's about the possibility that those that are brought to the island were about to die - but each in their own circumstances.


Well the date was close, but three years had passed since the 9 / 11 incidents.
And Sawyer did accuse Saydi of being a terrorist, so that was also a vague allusion.

Oh God. I've just realised that's going to get people thinking I'm saying the answer to lost is 9 / 11-related again. I'm not, people, okay? ONLY JULIET. My point was that there is relatively nothing that gives support to the time we have been given only a computer print out and maybe things Oceanic.
We have seen a sample of how The Others treat guests, would be inductees or prisoners. We have seen the real time is at minimum vailed or distorted. This holds some/much value to TPTB. So why would real time info be made available to this 'home' sick detainee?

I have thought in the past that people like Chistian, Yemi and even Rutherford were 'pronounced ' dead inorder to not be missed and to come to the 'Island'. It may prove interesting to see who 'died' on Hurley deck folding.
Also there have been references to these Deaths in absentia
1937Amelia Earhart - Famous American aviator; disappeared in the South Pacific (along with her navigator) while attempting to circumnavigate the globe
1913Ambrose Bierce - American author and journalist, disappeared without a trace during travels in Mexico. Last confirmed alive December 26, 1913 in Chihuahua. An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge
Glenn Miller - popular American jazz musician and bandleader. Disappeared on December 15, 1944, en route from England to Paris to play for troops in the recently liberated city. Neither his remains nor the aircraft in which he was riding were ever recovered.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List+of+people+who+have+disappeared

coupons >
My point was that there is relatively nothing that gives support to the time we have been given only a computer print out and maybe things Oceanic.


I'm basing Juliet's calculation on her counting the days, and ours, like the Losties, is based on the same thing. It could be that days aren't passing at the rate they appear to be passing, but that's just a theory, we can't apply that theoretical logic to all other theories. We have to assume, I think, that the days we've seen pass are the number of days that have passed.

And the starting day isn't based on a computer printout or even Oceanic. It's based on the knowledge the Losties have of the date they went to the airport. It could be that their memories were altered and the date they remember isn't the real date, but, as with the days passed, that's just a theory that can't be applied as fact.

I think we can assume for the purposes of this thread that the Losties and Juliet do know the date they arrived and the days that have passed.

Also, as I said before, Why would TPTB allude to such a sensitive date, just to turn around later and say"Ha ha, it wasn't 9 / 11 at all, it was the 5th of March".

And thanks, coupons, for the "deaths in absentia". I seem to remember there were some theories about Eve (of the caves' Adam and Eve) might be Amelia Earhart.
Was there any suggestion that might be the case, or was it just a stab in the dark?


In general,
I really do appreciate the input. I mean that - this thread has gone down like a lead balloon, and it's only still going because a few of you have taken the time to comment.
But, two pages in and we're still arguing over whether or not 9 / 11 will be referenced. Based on the numerous Spoilers that have confirmed it, I am working on the assumption that 9 / 11 IS referenced as the date Juliet came to the Island, and so the question shouldn't be WHETHER it is referenced, but rather WHY it was referenced.

And I think if you see it in those terms, as I came to, this theory makes a lot of sense.

I wonder if there's something about coming and going from the Island that causes the release of pent-up psychic energies. These energies then manifest as terrorist attacks like 9/11 or natural disasters like the tsunami. Could this be why the Others don't leave the Island even though it seems they can?

I wonder if there's something about coming and going from the Island that causes the release of pent-up psychic energies. These energies then manifest as terrorist attacks like 9/11 or natural disasters like the tsunami. Could this be why the Others don't leave the Island even though it seems they can?That's a cool idea. It makes me think of the spoiler about the mind-melding video that Karl is supposed to be watching in one of the upcoming episodes and Kate, Sawyer and Alex rescue him from it. With any extremist group, there has to be a lot of some kind of mind-melding, doesn't there? Whatever Ben's ultimate goal is, these mind-melding videos have to be something that can help him accomplish it. How can we look at videos like these as "good"? Forcing someone to think your way so that they can help you do whatever it is that you want to do? That doesn't sound that good to me. I wonder if the other Others have watched this video and who might be next to see it? It reminds me of Cindy's comment that she and the rest of the group by the cage that Jack was in in one of the promos were "there to watch..."

bigmouth >
I wonder if there's something about coming and going from the Island that causes the release of pent-up psychic energies. These energies then manifest as terrorist attacks like 9/11 or natural disasters like the tsunami. Could this be why the Others don't leave the Island even though it seems they can?


Personally, I can't see them going down that road because we'd be back to them suggesting the Island / Dharma was the cause of all those deaths. And that would be extrememly offensive to anyone that lost someone in either the 9 / 11 attacks or the Tsunami.

My suggestion here is that they are only going to reference 9 / 11 as a historical moment, and then later reveal that Juliet would have died in the attacks had she not been brought to the Island. And the overall implication is that all of the Losties would have died had they not been brought to the Island (but NOT that their deaths had ANYTHING to do with 9 / 11). And perhaps back in the real world they ARE dead. Maybe that's why they can't leave the Island and go "home" ?

And remember what Todell kindly reminded me of - the times they have said they're "dead already". TPTB have said they're NOT dead, but this would be the explanantion - they should be dead, but they were saved by the Island.

Well, if this group of people was saved by the Island, what were all the people on the plane who died - chopped liver? All the other people had to die because this group had to be saved? And what do all the Island deaths mean? Boone, Shannon, Libby, Ana, etc. plus the other less important survivors who died (Artz, Joanna, etc.) ... what's the point of those deaths?

I hope they referenced 9/11 for some reason, though I can't imagine what it could be. It's quite offensive to have it bandied about as some kind of little hidden 'gotcha', and right now it almost sounds like what it is.

Duffy,
I agree that there has to be a reason and I'm also of the opinion that in no way can they suggest the cause had anything to do with anything related to the show.

And so I tried to think of a reason for them including it and this is what I came up with,

Why weren't all of them saved, and why were some that were saved later allowed to die? You got me. I don't know. I'm guessing that will form part of a much more complicated scenario. This would just be a small element of the story, the explanation for how they survived the crash and came to the Island. Perhaps whatever saved them wasn't able to save any more of them. Or perhaps it was only interested in certain Losties and some of those around them were saved by proximity. Smokey certainly seemed in a hurry to remove the Pilot, so maybe he wasn't supposed to survive for some reason.

Smokey certainly seemed in a hurry to remove the Pilot, so maybe he wasn't supposed to survive for some reason.

Not that much of a hurry, it was 16 hours (I think) before Jack, Kate & Charlie went to find the transceiver, maybe he wasn't a problem until someone turned up he could talk too?

Smokey sure put on a hell of a show when they got there though didn't he.

SMOKEY: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I really, really, really miss that noise.

Okay, he didn't die no sooner had he landed, but I'm betting in those 16 hours he didn't get his life flash before his eyes, the manifestation of a dead brother, and the opportunity to repent.

Smokey has only, that we know of, killed one other person, Eko, and he took 72 days to do it. And there appeared to be a process leading up to his death. The pilot's death seemed a whole different kettle of fish. I would say there's a strong possibility he wasn't supposed to be a part of whatever "it" is.

And yeah, that foghorn noise was too cool. :toot:

I remember awhile back someone suggesting that Kelvin and the military set up Sayid so they can blame him for a terrorist attack and bringing the plane down. Personally, I didn't believe it then and still don't now, but it would be an interesting tie in to the whole 9/11 theme. I can't really see TPTB going that route, however. What do you think?

Right at the beginning I thought it would be a cool twist for Sayid to be the bad guy.
It would be a sort of double bluff
Everyone sees the Iraqi and thinks it would be prejudiced to suggest the Iraqi was the bad guy, so they assume he's not the bad guy, but then in the end it turns out he is. That he planted a bomb which split the plane in two.

But I don't really think they'd do that. It was just a little thought I had back in the first few eps. But, in any case, there's no connection between the Losties and 9 /11 - It was 3 years later.

The ONLY connection I am suggesting here is that Juliet was going to be a victim of the attacks, the Others somehow knew this, and were able to use that fact to bring her to the Island.

I do believe that back in the world (if the world still exists, which at this point it seems it does), journalists, bloggers and conspiracy theorists are having a field day. So many of those on Flight 815 had murky or criminal backgrounds: the former Republican Guard with an unexplained penchant for wandering the world and a suspicious choice in friends, the LA cop who resigned under a cloud and went to work for the TSA, the con man with a long record in multiple states, the fugitive daddy-burner/bank robber and the marshal who seems to have been playing out a three-year vendetta, the Korean hit man for a crooked industrialist, the Nigerian drug lord/fake priest. Others are notorious for their wealth (principally Hurley, but also Boone, Shannon and Sun) or their proverbial 15 minutes of fame (Charlie). One was instructed to get on the flight by a mysterious fortune-teller (a fact easy to unearth with a perfunctory best-friend interview). All those biographies, together with the fact that the plane disappeared from radar and no wreckage was ever found, surely make this crash a worldwide sensation.

One would certainly expect the "real world" would be buzzing about the missing plane. But remember, this is Lost. what if the "real world" asked the same amount of questions that the lostways do ... nobody would notice.

Maybe the missing plane has been removed from the greater consciousness of the "real world" through some of the mind-control techniques used during the Karl spoiler.

The problem is that we know nothing of the "real world" except for the brief clip of Ice Station Zebra and Penny's bedroom. Remember the bookclub looked like it was held in a "normal" home until the camera panned back.

Okay, Not in Portland has happened, so we can now get past the "possibility" of the 9 / 11 reference and concentrate on WHY it was in there.

So, basically, my suggestion is that those who are brought to the Island were going to die otherwise, and that is what makes it possible. This could be because whatever it is on the Island that brought them there "chooses" to only bring those who were going to die, or perhaps is only able to do it that way, OR that someone who controls the selection of those brought to the Island makes sure they only bring people who were going to die so as not to influence the natural course of events, i.e. the future.

Could it also be what Desmond experienced when they were saved from the Swan implosion?

And as I have said too many times already, but just to be on the safe side, the ONLY person that I think was connected to 9 / 11 is Juliet - that is how SHE was going to die. But our Losties were obviously about to die in a plane crash - nothing to do with terrorism. Desmond was about to die in that storm. Rousseau and her crew, Yemi and co., Henry Gale, each with their own causes totally unrelated with 9 / 11.

Put simply, this thread is NOT about 9 / 11, but rather if they were all saved from certain death.

Another element that has come up in Not in Portland is the question of time - the Mittelos anagram seems to mean "lost time". Could that explain HOW this process is possible. Maybe they can avoid death by making little jumps back in time or something - like that Prince of Persia game ! Or maybe that is connected to how they are able to foresee these deaths.

I think this might have something to do with the lost time thing.

Does time pass differently on the island than off the island?

LINDELOF: That's a really perceptive question. We know that the Others taped the Red Sox win the World Series in 2004... so that would seem to indicate that time flows the same both on and off. But then again, when the sky turns purple and the ground shakes... wait. Hold on. Carlton is wringing my neck.

He seems to be implying that this lost time thing, whatever it is, is connected to a SYSTEM TERMINATION.

How many times has that happened?

It seems very unlikely, given the failsafe key detonated the anomaly, that it's ever happened before.

So if something is now funked with time on the island I'd say there is a good argument to be made that it's happened after the SYSTEM TERMINATION key was turned.

Richard,
I wasn't sure, so I've been looking at other threads, and I THINK quotes from TPTB that aren't about upcoming eps aren't considered Spoilers.

I agree about the System Termination implication, but perhaps also System Failures? Do we know what the effects of a System Failure are outside of the hatch?

However, I'm afraid I'm not seeing the connection here. What are you suggesting?

Richard,
I wasn't sure, so I've been looking at other threads, and I THINK quotes from TPTB that aren't about upcoming eps aren't considered Spoilers.

I agree about the System Termination implication, but perhaps also System Failures? Do we know what the effects of a System Failure are outside of the hatch?

However, I'm afraid I'm not seeing the connection here. What are you suggesting?

I tagged it anyway just to be on the safe side...

It's been said that if the key hadn't been turned eventually everything would have been sucked into The Swan, sort of like a black hole.

I know nothing of the science but from a purely TV angle....

The stronger the pull of the magnet/the slower the flow of time.

Maybe a SYSTEM FAILURE could eat up fractions of a second, but the fact that Locke and Desmond gave the same date suggests to me that no great ammount of time has been lost as yet.

If it had would Juliets departure date still fall around 9/11.

Does it fall around 9/11, I've not worked it out yet.

Presuming time runs at the same rate both on and off the island, and not taking into account the SYSTEM TERMINATION (which seems now crucial), then Not in Portland would have taken place on Friday, December 3, 2004.

She said she had been there for 3 years, 2 months and 28 days.

:confused:

Right, I see. You're thinking in terms of the "lost time" angle.
Along the lines of what you're saying, I am now wondering if the honking great magnet isn't designed with the purpose of slowing down time, when necessary. That would be really cool.

In terms of the dates - I'm sure it's a 9 / 11 reference. Because if it wasn't, for whatever reason, TPTB would simply have picked a different period of time. They knew that THAT period of time would lead us to 9 / 11 and a big can of worms. As I said to a poster earlier on the thread, I can't see them going anywhere near 9 / 11 just as some kind of Red Herring. It was that idea that got me thinking about this theory that they were all about to die in their different circumstances.

i like this idea, Lucidity

it would fit in with the way the island ( or whatever ) can seemingly bring people back to life. and how it seems to want to change people who have 'lost' their way by sort of making them relive their bad choices.

and how often when people have come to terms with their past - they die anyway !

In terms of the dates - I'm sure it's a 9 / 11 reference. Because if it wasn't, for whatever reason, TPTB would simply have picked a different period of time. They knew that THAT period of time would lead us to 9 / 11 and a big can of worms. As I said to a poster earlier on the thread, I can't see them going anywhere near 9 / 11 just as some kind of Red Herring. It was that idea that got me thinking about this theory that they were all about to die in their different circumstances.

My assumption, without knowing the precise date on which Juliette is speaking, would be that the date was September 22, 2001 -- the same date on which Flight 815 crashed 3 years later, implying that there are certain points in time that the island is accessible. Is that ruled out by the "count" of days on the island thus far?

BlackLotus >
i like this idea, Lucidity

it would fit in with the way the island ( or whatever ) can seemingly bring people back to life. and how it seems to want to change people who have 'lost' their way by sort of making them relive their bad choices.


Exactly. At first glance it sounds way over the top, but it's not hard to see how it would fit very neatly into a lot of the theories on this board.


Tramp >
My assumption, without knowing the precise date on which Juliette is speaking, would be that the date was September 22, 2001 -- the same date on which Flight 815 crashed 3 years later, implying that there are certain points in time that the island is accessible. Is that ruled out by the "count" of days on the island thus far?


Even though it would totally contradict this thread's premise, I really liked that idea. But I've checked the dates and it doesn't match. According to LostPedia's calculations the date Juliet has referenced is precisely the 5th September 2001, and Flight 815 was the 22nd.


I've been thinking about the whole thing more and more, and I really like the way these possible time issues that have come up could tie in with this idea of something saving the Losties from certain death. I've never played the game, but, as I mentioned earlier, there was a Prince of Persian game (Sands of Time, I think it was called) in which he could basically do the same thing, from what I understand. If he was about to die he could use a potion or something and go back in time a few moments and try and save himself. Maybe Lost is a Video Game after all !

As Damon pointed out, the most recent "outside world" event confirmed on the island was the Red Sox winning the series, which was on October 27, 2004, not long after the crash. But still, I think it's significant that the world went on as normal (at least normal enough for the World Series to be played) for more than a month after the crash. Also, the date Ben confronted Jack could not have been earlier than 10/27/04 (unless the Others can videotape the future--which is an interesting thought).

I guess I'm just too literal-minded to wrap my head around "lost time" theories. What is a day? The sun rises, the sun sets. How can there be fewer sunrises and sunsets in this little patch of the South Pacific if they're observing the same sun we are? Unless they're NOT on Earth, in which case all bets are off. Or unless this is the "damn the science, full speed ahead" version of science fiction.

Sorry, I think I've strayed a bit from the "we who are about to die" theme of this thread.

LostMyMarbles,
The kind of time thing I'm wondering about isn't so much time constantly passing at a different rate, it's more like Superman flying backwards around the Earth or whatever that was. The idea would be that they can bend things, slow them down, etc., move them back a few days, using the huge magnet, but not all the time. Just on birthdays and other special occasions, or when people they need for "the cause" were going to die anyway.

So, basically, my suggestion is that those who are brought to the Island were going to die otherwise, and that is what makes it possible. This could be because whatever it is on the Island that brought them there "chooses" to only bring those who were going to die, or perhaps is only able to do it that way, OR that someone who controls the selection of those brought to the Island makes sure they only bring people who were going to die so as not to influence the natural course of events, i.e. the future.

I read this and had a flash of deja vu, check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28novel%29

I read this and had a flash of deja vu, check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28novel%29 it would be highly disappointing if they based LOST on a very mediocre Kris Kristopherson and Cheryl Ladd movie.

Comfortably Numb,
That is so cool, and exactly the sort of thing I was imagining. Wouldn't that be too cool? Don't think there's too much evidence to support the idea, but I think it's a possibility.

danl08,
The fact that it was made into a lame movie (assuming it was lame, haven't seen it) makes the possibility more real than if the story had already been made into some amazing blockbuster, i.e. it hasn't been done (well) before.

Just been looking at the movie page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28film%29) too :

"Bill and Louise step through and disappear into The Gate, which takes them to another time and another place, in order to save their lives and fulfill a destiny much like that of Adam and Eve."



And they've got "The Gate" and I think Lost may have "Ports" (clues : PORTland, PORTugal, NewPORT, The Pala Ferry)

And this idea of them replacing the bodies would also explain the original transmission Boone picked up : "There were no survivors of Flight 815"

This just came to me quick and I don't know if it will make any sense or not, but it sounds good in my head...

Desmond now has some ability to forsee the future. Jack and company have turned the tables on the others. From what we see, the others aren't as intimidating in numbers or in resources as we might have first suspected. Let's move ahead a little, possibly to another season...

With the help of Desmond, Jack and company are able to learn a bit more of the others and what they are up to, maybe they take control of certain aspects of the island. If the others are/were able to manipulate time and Jack and Desmond learn how, this scenerio could play out...

Desmond and Jack decide to "experiment" with this new found ability. Desmond goes back in time to when Jack is running at the stadium. They meet. This is how Desmond knows that Jack has actually healed is soon to be wife. At this point, Penelope finds Desmond, not from when he was let out of jail, but she has been able to locate him from after the hatch explosion. Desmond realizes that he needs to make the trip around the world or else all of this will be for nothing. He needs to take down Penelope's dad who might have everything to do with what is going on at craphole island. Plus, he tells Jack that he will see him in another life because he knows that they will meet again.

Back on the island, when they first enter the hatch, Jack and Desmond look at each other with a weird connection. neither of them can figure out why, but Jack is able to remember meeting Desmond at the stadium. Desmond can't forsee the future yet because the hatch explosion hasn't happened, so both are unaware that they both planned their previous meeting together.

I haven't gone back to look at previous episodes because I don't own them. I'm sure that there is proof that can tear my theory apart, but I thought I would post it anyways while it is still fresh in my mind.

Wait...

Sorry, I just thought of something else. There has been a lot of talk about 2 factions. These factions could be Dharma vs. Mittleos (not sure if this is correct). We know from the lost experience that Dharma was corrupted by Mittlework. What if the Losties end up joining forces with Dharma somehow in the past as a way to take down the others. Dharma could be convinced to make frequent food drops and to provide weapons, etc. in order to help the Losties. The Losties are unaware of this plan because it is all new to them, but they were actually part of forming the plan. Maybe the eye patch man will turn out to be a connection between the Losties and Dharma. He may be a prisoners of the others (aka Mittleosians). He could be the key to taking down the others.

I've lost my train of thought. Let me know if any of this makes sense.

lost34,
I like the idea of Desmond forming part of some kind of time anomaly. His apparent clairvoyance could explain the "What if you DID fix her?", but it's harder to see how it might explain the "See you in another life" or what on Earth "You've got to lift it up" might mean. So yeah, the idea that he was somehow "sent" back to lead Jack down a certain path is interesting. However, TPTB have said that Desmond is being honest with us, so how could it be that he doesn't know what he did?

But the idea of certain people being "sent" would explain all the Island people who have popped up in pre-Island flashbacks.

And that aspect might tie in with the idea of this thread. Perhaps when these people are saved from certain death and brought to the Island, someone actually has to go back and do the saving, like in the book / film Comfortably Numb posted about earlier.

Here is another idea. Desmond was able to see the very close forseeable future to begin with and this is how he knew Jack would save his wife. Maybe he has no control over it though. I bet being on the island has cured him of this "curse" just like it has cured Locke's legs and Rose's cancer. I bet that the explosion of the hatch and the purple sky has caused things to go back to the way they were. I bet Rose's cancer is coming back. I bet Locke's legs are fine though because he has rehabilitated them and built the muscles back up. I bet that this is why Ben all of a sudden has a tumor and needs surgery. He was fine as long as the powers of the island were still at work.

Going back to what Juliet said about how long she'd been on the island...This is the only tie-in I can find with Lost and 9/11. I posted this on the names thread and decided to re-post it here. It deals with Sayid Jarrah's name and I thought it was sort of interesting but I don't know what to make of it. Let me know what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziad_Jarrah

Apparently one of the hijackers of United Airlines 93 (Shanksville) on 9/11 was "Ziad Jarrah." There was some speculation as to whether or not he was really on the plane. It was later confirmed that he was. The following quote comes from the same article. It appears that Ziad was in the cockpit of Flight 93 with a man named "Saeeed." Here you go:

"The 9/11 Commission stated that Jarrah was the pilot. The flight transcript, however, might indicate that Saeed al-Ghamdi, who also trained in flight simulators, could have been the pilot or a co-pilot. Two of the hijackers are heard calling the pilot "Saeed".

alohamonkey,
That's an interesting connection.
However, as I have said too many times now - this thread isn't about 9 / 11. I don't think for one second there will be any more connection to 9 / 11 than that which Juliet has given us.

The thread is about the possibility that everyone that is brought to the Island was snatched from a situation that would have meant certain death. And Juliet's, but ONLY Juliet's would have been 9 / 11 related.

But as I say, it is an interesting connection, and not one I had seen mentioned before, and it would probably be VERY relevant on a more 9 / 11 related thread.

Time to revisit this theory after the Jeweler's talk of course corrections and the inevitability of death...

Time to revisit this theory after the Jeweler's talk of course corrections and the inevitability of death...

indeed, this inevitability of death if you were supposed to die and the fact that they were snatched from the jaws of death gives me a thought.

if Kate was the only one who remained conscious throughout, perhaps she will be the only one to survive at the end of it all.

all the rest must have woken up post crash (like jack in the jungle) - they were given their life back by the island ( hence locke could walk, rose was cured )
-and for them it is only a stay of execution until the 'course correction'.

but kate actually did survive the crash - she was the only who escaped the jaws of death upon arrival.



sad thought .

Finally got to see FBYE yesterday, and I can see what you guys are talking about now with the "course correction" connection. My initial thought was that maybe the Island is somehow immune to this course correction. Hawking said : "Had I warned him about the scaffolding, tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck." Maybe the Island is the one place where the universe can't get to them?

And BlackLotus, interesting thought about Kate being in a different situation to the rest of the Losties. Everyone's always commented on how she might be a mole because of 101 different things she says and does - maybe a lot of those things have to do with this possibility of yours. Maybe she was the one person that wasn't actually supposed to be on that plane - the universe didn't expect her to save Ray or something, and didn't have time to "course correct".

In Stranger in a Strange Land there was a comment from Karl that seems to suggest something along these lines : "You shouldn't fight because you're lucky to be alive".

Of course, it might just be that they're lucky to be alive simply because they survived the plane crash. But the way in which he said it seemed more poignant than that.

The thing that is interesting to me is that if you need to be "already dead anyway" to gain entry to the island, then this would imply that they can never leave unless they die first. So the only way Ben is going to send anyone home is in a body bag...

What if 9/11 was the course correction that resulted from Juliet killing Edmund prematurely?

So, what is or was Edmund connected to that made 9/11 have to happen (according to the Universe)?

I personally don't think the 9 / 11 reference is going to be anything like that.

My suggestion here was just that maybe all of those brought to the Island, for one of several possible reasons, had to be about to die in the "real world" anyway. So, Juliet would have died 9 / 11. But the Losties would have died in the plane crash.

And I still think the possibility is very likely - after all, there has to be an explanation for that 9 / 11 reference.

Apparently . . .

we're going to see HOW Juliet came to the island in an upcoming episode, so that might give us more information to work with.

alohamonkey,
That's an interesting connection.
However, as I have said too many times now - this thread isn't about 9 / 11. I don't think for one second there will be any more connection to 9 / 11 than that which Juliet has given us.

The thread is about the possibility that everyone that is brought to the Island was snatched from a situation that would have meant certain death. And Juliet's, but ONLY Juliet's would have been 9 / 11 related.

But as I say, it is an interesting connection, and not one I had seen mentioned before, and it would probably be VERY relevant on a more 9 / 11 related thread.

OHHH now I get what you mean, ONLY JULIET, It's a very interesting theory but I cannot see the a connection apart from the date, unless we find out she was supposed to be speaking at some fertility doctor conference in Manhattan and got recruited by Mittlelos and sent to the island I don't buy it.
I think it would be in bad taste to reference Juliet getting whisked away by the Others and thus surviving 9/11. Lost does not need to reference real life tragedy.

I personally don't think the 9 / 11 reference is going to be anything like that.
Okay. But wouldn't a more faithful parallel to the survivors of Flight 815 be if Juliet miraculously survived the collapse of the Towers? I also think you're dismissing an interesting connection between disasters and course corrections. If 9/11 is ever referenced on the show, I feel like that's an intuitive way of doing so.

bigmouth,
Yes, you're totally right about the parallel between Juliet's potential survival and that of the Losties' survival of Flight 815 - that was the inspiration for this thread / theory. It was the "Course Correction"-Connection possibility that I don't see, personally.

It's just that my feelings about 9 / 11's possible involvement in Lost are very clear - I think it will be 100 % Passive, 0 % Active. By this I mean that it might be the case that Juliet would have been a victim of those attacks (Passive), but that in no way will the writers suggest that anything going on within the story (Good / Evil, Dharma / Hanso, Valenzetti, Course Correction . . .) had, in any way, shape or form, anything to do with the CAUSE of the tragedy (Active).

And I'm very sorry, if my response yesterday seemed dismissive. I hope you know how much I respect your opinions (by the way, congrats on your new-found fame). It's just that I really like the possibility I've raised with this thread, but I think it is buried under the misconception that I'm saying Lost is all about 9 / 11, or something along those lines.

ComfortablyNumb posted this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28novel%29) a couple of pages back, and that's much more the sort of thing I envisage.

A bit of a Spoiler regarding the parachutist from the upcoming episode :

According to "Kristin" the parachutist will be telling Hurley "the fate of the real Oceanic Flight 815". So, my thoughts - along the lines of this thread, Flight 815 crashed and there were no survivors (as the original radio signal picked up by Boone stated). However, TPTB have stated that the Losties aren't dead, etc. So . . . they were somehow clutched from the Jaws of Death and brought to the Island.

I think it's probably something to do with not affecting the natural course of humanity (Butterfly Effect, and all that) and that's why when they need people for the Island they can only bring people who were going to die anyway.

The latest Spoiler confirms the speculation part of yesterday's.


From this page (http://lostrumours.blogspot.com/2007/04/oceanic-flight-no-survivors.html) :

"At the close of the episode our beloved cast aways will inform the parachute girl that they're survivors of Oceanic flight 815. The parachute girl will give them the unfortunate news that what they've just told her is impossible seeing as how the wreckage of that flight was found and recovered, and that there were no survivors. The episode promptly ends thereafter."

Third time lucky ?
The speculative Spoiler, which later became a more specific Spoiler has now happened.
There were no survivors + the Losties aren't dead (TPTB) = someone or something snatched them from the situation right before they were about to die.
And purely as a support idea (NOT the actual topic of this thread), Juliet's 9 / 11 connection would be the same thing = someone or something brought her to the Island before she could die in the attacks.
And that would also explain why they can't let them leave.

someone or something snatched them from the situation right before they were about to die.

That "someone or something" went to a lot of trouble to make them appear dead to the outside world. If the wreckage was found and all the bodies were declared dead, then it is possible there was some forensic evidence that was evaluated.

Is this why the combs and brushes were taken from the Losties plane? Did someone plant DNA evidence in the found wreckage to lead investigators to declare the Losties dead?

I struggle a little bit with a conspiracy that vast, and that well organized. But, we know from TLE that the Hanso Foundation/Mittelwerk has been involved in organ harvesting and full blood transfusions. Whether or not that is sufficient evidence to suggest they could create mock-corpses of the Losties, I don't know.

hv,
Kind of you to respond. I figured eventually someone would, if only out of pity ! :biggrin:

I guess a lot of the HOW it could be done depends on the extent things can just be "made to happen" on the Island. Perhaps the Island or someone on it simply has the power to take the flight and duplicate it, or one I'm not sure of but like the idea of, perhaps it's about slowing down time or doing Prince of Persia style little jumps backwards in time, allowing for someone to nip in and snatch people.

But also, more down-to-Earth, I'd guess if they found enough remains and wreckage in a burnt enough state and in a remote enough place then they would come to the conclusion they were all dead. But that would still mean someone or something were able to pull them out of the situation, because if there were "normal" means for survival then it wouldn't make sense that they declare them all dead.

Oh, and Lindelof has apparently reiterated the following :

The following two facts are true. I swear it.
A. They're not in purgatory.
B. They're not dead.
If we did such a thing after repeatedly stating otherwise, we'd be tarred and feathered!

I'm leaning toward what seems to me the simplest explanation: the parachutist lied. She's feeding this info to the Losties to keep 'em quiescent. That supports the Others' apparent imperative to keep the island secure and unvisited. The mystery then is what is the parachutist's connection to the surrounding plot. But, I suppose, that's easier to explain than staged crashes and/or multiple realities.

If Lost were really happening, if we were really there seeing and hearing these "clues" as they happen I'd agree. But as a TV show, and especially one that isn't known for giving away information, I don't think they'd give a clue like that just to take it back again next week.

I don't think they'd give a clue like that just to take it back again next week.

I'm gonna bet they don't "take it back" for quite a while. This is a long con, IMO. ;) At least four seasons!

yes the parachutist really just could have lied and thats frustrating:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/...03#post1517403

From former Spoilers: "Meanwhile, (parachutist) will return to the beach with some alarming information concerning flight 815, but can she be trusted?"

So, has Jack given us another clue as to what is going on?

Jack : I've been flying a lot.
Kate : What ?
Jack : Yeah, the Golden Pass that they gave us - I've been using it. Every Friday night I fly from L.A. to Tokyo or Singapore, Sydney. And then I get off, and I have a drink, and then I fly home.
Kate : Why?
Jack : Because I want it to crash, Kate. I don't care about anyone else on board. Every little bump we hit, or turbulence, and I actually close my eyes and I pray that I can get back.


They've got a "Golden Pass", so Oceanic are somehow aware that they're back - which, for me, rules out alternate timelines, the crash never happened, etc.
And Jack's "sick of lying", so I guess the rest of the world aren't aware of either where they were, or what they did to get back.

But the main thing is that Jack, in his efforts to get back, wants a plane to crash.
Surely, if it were simply a question of geography he would be out in a boat combing every stretch of water trying to find the Island. But no, he's hoping for a planecrash, and he doesn't even seem too bothered WHERE it crashes - so I think it's fairly safe to say that that's how you gain access to the Island, in Jack's opinion, at least.

Also, the fact that he says he doesn't care what happens to the other passengers would imply that the crash would need to be fatal for those who aren't saved.
So, all in line with my idea that those taken to the Island have to be about to die.

Another possible clue was right at the beginning of the episode when he tells the stewardess that "20 minutes is a long time". Combined with the Mittelos / Lost Time thing, might that be a clue that when they do get back to the real world it's as if only 20 minutes had passed?

Could it be that Jack is wondering if you can go there from ANY near-death experience, and that's why he was contemplating suicide? Maybe he's realised that whoever's funeral it was has actually gone back to the Island.
Think how cool it would be if every time Alpert travels to the Island he has to shoot himself or something - perhaps that's why he doesn't seem to age, something to do with the fact that he travels back and forth so much.

Of course, all of this would also tie in with the whole theme of "See you in another life" and "See you on the other side".

I'm pretty much talking to myself on my Threads recently :biggrin:, but, as I always say, I like to keep them completely up to date with any new clues, connections, etc. anyway, so I'm going to add this SPOILER taken from a section on the new S3 BluRay :

There's a section in which Darlton give answers on different aspects of the story and The Odi (and later Dark) has posted a summary (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=80503210&blogID=337626045) of what's on there. The relevant part here is the following :

The Others are responsible for bringing Anthony Cooper to the island. Drugs + Accident = arriving on the island.


Now, it depends on Odi's interpretation / wording, but it seems to me that in the basic equation of how to get Anthony Cooper to the Island Darlton are saying that the Accident is half of it.


So, are we slowly moving towards my suggestion that you have to be near death to be brought to the Island?

It makes sense to me, Luc. I mean, if people think you're dead, they're not going to go looking for you, are they?

It's interesting you bring this up in this thread in particular, which began with speculation that Juliet's trip to the Island coincides with 9/11. I can think of at least four "reasons" why TPTB picked that date, albeit in an obscure way.

First, and perhaps most insignificantly, on 9/11 the "Twin" Towers fell. There's an awful lot of "twinning" references in the show, and this just adds to them.

Second, as you keenly point out, if people are going to the Island and possibly not coming back, taking them during "accidents" - especially where the body can't be easily identified - keeps suspicions from being aroused. This theme is also explored in John Varley's book, "Millenium", which was subsequently rendered in a poorly executed (imo) movie by the same name.

Third, 9/11 happened in 2001, the turn of the millenium. In TTLG, there's a scene where Charlie is tied to a chair, and Bonnie and Greta go into that control room and close the door, so Charlie can't listen. He can only see them through the porthole, and all we see is their lips moving. This shot is constructed in much the same way as the scene in 2001 Space Odyssey, where HAL reads the lips of Poole and Bowman through a similar porthole in their EVA, while they discuss their own suspicions of HAL. All this to say that 2001 ASO may be another "literary" or cinematic reference which ties into the show - possibly an allusion to Smoky being analagous to HAL?

Finally, 9/11 happened because of religious literalism. I think Lost has been designed in such a way as to help us break down thinking in such "literalist" ways, which come from the idea that there's only one way of looking at things, only "One True Path." This notion, I think, is at the heart of why so many religions can't stand each other. Yeesh, even some of the core of "objectivism" and the race to develop a unified "Theory Of Everything" in science depends on the notion of a "god's eye view" of the Universe, but without God - and isn't that ironic?

Yeah, that Millenium book has been brought up here a couple of times. I had never heard of it before starting the Thread, but it's practically the same Story / Theory.

I think by referencing 9/11 as they did they touched upon some very delicate territory, and so I'm convinced there is one clear, specific reason that the reference was made. Something that, had the reference caused any kind of backlash, they could demonstrate. Obviously, my thinking is that that "something" is what I describe in this Thread. But if it's not this then I'm sure it's something else equally direct.

I think by referencing 9/11 as they did they touched upon some very delicate territory, and so I'm convinced there is one clear, specific reason that the reference was made. Something that, had the reference caused any kind of backlash, they could demonstrate. Obviously, my thinking is that that "something" is what I describe in this Thread. But if it's not this then I'm sure it's something else equally direct.

What makes you think that?

Well, why reference it at all if all they're looking to do is, just as an example, give another Twin reference? It's obvious that it's a volatile area, and so why go there at all? I think that first off, there'd need to be a good reason, something specific and worthwhile for the storyline. And second, I think it would have to be something they could explain very clearly and simply.

Well, why reference it at all if all they're looking to do is, just as an example, give another Twin reference? It's obvious that it's a volatile area, and so why go there at all? I think that first off, there'd need to be a good reason, something specific and worthwhile for the storyline. And second, I think it would have to be something they could explain very clearly and simply.

Well, you make some great points. Because it is such a volatile subject, I think that's why they reference it obliquely, so as not to stir up anyone that doesn't really want to think about it, it being such a fresh wound. I mean, one of the purposes of the TV show is simply to entertain, yes?

That said, isn't it possible they have more than one idea they want to communicate about that event, or possibly many "conversations" they want to encourage about it? I mean, on the one hand we can look at the Causes of the event, which in my mind seems to point to the problem of "literalism" in religion, especially in religions which posit they're "the only way"? Don't you think? Not to mention the role of colonialism.

On the other hand, 9/11 has really had an Effect on the United States as well as other countries, and I think that's worth looking at too. And really, more than one Effect. It really polarized a lot people, it led to the Iraq invasion, it continues to reverberate in politics...

What do you think?

So, any takers yet?

We have Oceanic 815 sat at the bottom of that trench, and yet we also have it scattered over the Island. We saw the Pilot die on Craphole, and yet there he was at the bottom of the sea.

The Freighties come to the Island, but, hey, what a surprise, on their way to the Island their helicopter is struck by lightning. Chaos ensues. Then they're on Craphole. All scattered about. Helicopter's right as rain.
My suggestion : they didn't crash on their way to the Island, the crash itself was the way to the Island.

Remember, none of the arrivals have ever arrived safe and sound. There's always a crash or accident. And I remind you all that we saw in Looking Glass that Jack feels the best way back is for a plane to crash.

Also remember that Miles, who had been so concerned about Naomi, says of her dead body "that's not Naomi it's just meat". I would even go so far as to say he was angered by the idea of taking the body with them.
My suggestion : he knows that isn't Naomi, it was just some kind of copy of Naomi, a vessel Naomi was passed into.

And then Abaddon and Naomi discuss their mission to the Island. We know they're not there for the Losties. And certainly not there for the plane. And so, why would they discuss the possibility there might be survivors of 815 on the Island? They're all supposed to be dead. They're not going after the plane. What other connection could there be?
My suggestion : Flight 815 has gone missing recently, and they know how the Island works, saving people from crashes and the like, and that's why she suspects they will encounter a lot of survivors.

The Freighties come to the Island, but, hey, what a surprise, on their way to the Island their helicopter is struck by lightning. Chaos ensues. Then they're on Craphole. All scattered about. Helicopter's right as rain.

Very similar to Desmond's arrival. He thought his ship had sunken when he washed up on the beach. Well, something violent must've happened to the ship. But there it was in a secluded bay - hardly damaged at all. Kelvin claimed he repaired the ship. I suspect he didn't do much repairs, but just told Desmond he did.

My suggestion : they didn't crash on their way to the Island, the crash itself was the way to the Island.

You mean death is the way to the island?

Remember, none of the arrivals have ever arrived safe and sound. There's always a crash or accident.

Except for the Dharma- and the Others'-recruits and employees.

We know they're not there for the Losties. And certainly not there for the plane. And so, why would they discuss the possibility there might be survivors of 815 on the Island? They're all supposed to be dead. They're not going after the plane. What other connection could there be?

They're after Benjamin Linus. Perhaps when the hatch exploded, the two portugese speaking guys weren't the only ones who noticed the island...

Thanks for posting, het. :thumbsup:

Good point about Desmond's "Elizabeth". Exact same thing.


You mean death is the way to the island?


Exactly !


Except for the Dharma- and the Others'-recruits and employees.


Well, we saw Juliet in the build-up. It wouldn't be out of the question to think that OJ killed her rather than put her to sleep.

Makes you wonder even more what happened to the Black Rock...

I suspect the people on the island might be dead for a number of reasons (Sayid told Ana-Lucia "we're dead allready",Mikhail shot Bea without hesitation or even a flinge when she asked for it: life doesn't matter much when you're dead allready.).

But then there's this (alleged?) remark by TPTB about the island not being purgatory...

I don't think they're actually dead. What I'm thinking is that someone is about to die in the real world, but just before they do some kind of copy is made of them and their "soul", their "consciousness" is passed into that copy, leaving the body that is about to die empty. This would explain the dead bodies on the plane they've found, but wouldn't mean the Losties are dead.

It could also explain this business of the pilot's wedding ring. Perhaps certain objects like that can't be copied and have to be physically taken off and placed on the copy?

I don't think they're actually dead. What I'm thinking is that someone is about to die in the real world, but just before they do some kind of copy is made of them and their "soul", their "consciousness" is passed into that copy, leaving the body that is about to die empty.

I can go along with that up to the point that copies are made of people. I can imagine this was done with Juliet, but with the Losties? I think it's more plausible that the island is some sort of anomaly where time has different proporties, which allow the inhabitants to move through time in alternative ways. "Only fools and slaves...", remember?

The people on flight 815 (and the other castaways as you pointed out) did crash and did die, but during the crash they entered the anomaly and lived - in another dimension if you will. That would also explain the dead bodies on the plane they've found.

Yeah, that would work too, The actual "mechanics" of how it might happen are still up in the air for me, but I'm more convinced than ever that something like this is happening. We've also got Bunny 15 to throw into the equation. I envisage something like that being involved. We saw the second copy of the bunny popping up out of nowhere, so that same concept can be applied here. And perhaps Time is an element of it all as well. For starters, "it" or they would have to know when someone was going to die in order to pull it off, so that requires either seeing the future or going back into the past.

And there's Locke's father. He thought he died and went to hell. We know he wasn't in hell, but he might have died: Christian Shephard died and walked the island as well.

Of all the things Locke could will into being (at least according Ben it was up to Locke to think something up in that magic box) he came up with his father? I never really bought it was Locke who wanted him there. The psychologic behind it doesn't add up. My bet it was the island/Jacob or Ben who "summoned" Locke's father -- to see if Locke could kill him (as Ben did his dad).

Of all the things Locke could will into being (at least according Ben it was up to Locke to think something up in that magic box) he came up with his father? I never really bought it was Locke who wanted him there. The psychologic behind it doesn't add up. My bet it was the island/Jacob or Ben who "summoned" Locke's father -- to see if Locke could kill him (as Ben did his dad).

I thought that's who Ben was talking about when he asked Richard to...

BEN: ...bring me the man from Tallahassee.

ALPERT: What do you need him for?

BEN: Just do it. Now.

Of course how they got him to The Island is still unclear, we only know what Cooper himself told us...

SAWYER: How did you get here, to the Island?

COOPER: Island? OK. I'm driving down I10 through Tallahassee when bam, somebody slams into the back of my car. I go right into the divider at seventy miles an hour, the next thing I know, the paramedics are strapping me to a gurney, stuffing me into the back of an ambulance and one of them actually smiles at me as he pops the IV in my arm. And then, nothing. Just, black. And the next thing I know I wake up in a dark room tied up, gag in my mouth, and when the door opens, I'm looking up at the same man I threw out a window, John Locke. My dead son.

Yet another traumatic entrance to The Island!

About the bodies on-board 815, can we be sure that the R.O.V saw them all or did they just see the "pilot" and assume that they were all still on-board, I mean, where else would they be, right?

het,
Yeah, Locke's father came right out and said he had died.

As for who "willed him into being", Sawyer is another candidate, I'd say. His greatest desire at that time was to confront the man he blamed for everything.

Richard,
I think the bodies aboard 815 is sort of a given. If at some stage they turned around and said no-one had checked inside that would be a massive, massive cheat, don't you think? It would just defy logic to say that they found the plane but didn't arrange for burials and the like, that they didn't even check further than the cockpit.

I think the bodies aboard 815 is sort of a given. If at some stage they turned around and said no-one had checked inside that would be a massive, massive cheat, don't you think? It would just defy logic to say that they found the plane but didn't arrange for burials and the like, that they didn't even check further than the cockpit.

I just watched the episode again and I was forgetting that we see the plane in three distinct parts so there were places where the R.O.V could presumably go right up and look inside, but it's very suspicious to me that the bodies will never be recovered, the little snippets of info that you hear on the radio in MIles flashback and on the T.V in Frank's are quite interesting...

With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all three hundred and twenty-four passengers dead.

We wanna caution our viewers that the images they are about to see are graphic in nature. Viewer discretion is advised. Authorities have released dramatic footage of the sunken remains of Oceanic Flight 815. The National Transportation Safety Board has set up a hotline for family members of the Oceanic victims. The NTSB has begun the victim identification process. We have confirmation that this is the pilot, Captain Seth Norris. In a statement, the NTSB said that quote. The recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims. Unquote.

I have to wonder if they'd be able to visually identify all 324 people on board or whether some relatives would just have to take for granted that their loved ones were in that plane, the O6 for example can't have been identified in the same way as Seth Norris (shown on T.V) or they would never be able to have gone back to normal life, would they?

In fact that would be a creepy scene and very LOST-like, set it up as if it's all a conspiracy to get someone (namely Sam Thomas) to accidentally find the wreckage of 815 only to end an episode with R.O.V camera close-ups of the O6's decaying faces.

Hmmm. It's interesting that they make such an obvious point of saying the bodies won't be retrieved. I missed that. As I was saying before, for me the logical thing would be for them to bring all the bodies up for burial, but the Writers have given themselves a get-out with that news report. So, the question is why do the writers want to cover their backs on that point?

As you say, Richard, it could be so that they're free to have the Losties return to the real world. Or it could be something to do with the bodies not being very real, something like that.

I'm trying to figure out how the Pilot's missing ring could factor into all of this. I suggested earlier that perhaps such items can't be copied in the same way as the bodies, but it sounds a bit flimsy.

I guess the big divide in this Theory of mine would be whether the whole process is instantaneous and "magical" - the Island created the copy in the blink of an eye, or if it's "manual" - people board the plane, perhaps time is slowed down or stopped or something, and they manipulate events, people, objects, etc. That second version would be along the lines of the book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28novel%29) and film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_%28film%29) Millennium.

Hmmm. It's interesting that they make such an obvious point of saying the bodies won't be retrieved. I missed that. As I was saying before, for me the logical thing would be for them to bring all the bodies up for burial, but the Writers have given themselves a get-out with that news report. So, the question is why do the writers want to cover their backs on that point?

I'm not so sure. The plane ended up in a deep trench (up to 7,725 meters deep, according to Lostpedia), it's plausible the bodies won't be retrieved, because it would be next to impossible to do so. Remember the discovery of the Titanic - that was a huge feat. Finding it was a tough nut to crack, but actually sending down ROV's to the ship was in the same league of space flight. In all likeliness, I think that ROV's might explore the plane for clues why it crashed, but I don't think that in the real world bodies would be recovered from a wreck so deep down. The passengers and crew would be given a sea burial or memorial.

As you say, Richard, it could be so that they're free to have the Losties return to the real world. Or it could be something to do with the bodies not being very real, something like that.

It could also be that the writers just don't want to give it away yet. And, how long since the crash was the wreck discovered? Wouldn't the bodies be decomposed/eaten yet? I know it takes longer in the water, but would the bodies still be recongnizable? The pilot and crew probably would (by their clothes), but the passengers?

I'm trying to figure out how the Pilot's missing ring could factor into all of this. I suggested earlier that perhaps such items can't be copied in the same way as the bodies, but it sounds a bit flimsy.

It does. Because the pilot's clothes and wings we're copied.

I guess the big divide in this Theory of mine would be whether the whole process is instantaneous and "magical" - the Island created the copy in the blink of an eye.

I'm going for that option.

I guess the big divide in this Theory of mine would be whether the whole process is instantaneous and "magical" - the Island created the copy in the blink of an eye

I was talking to another Lost fan, recently. She brought up something that Carlton said awhile back regarding the plane wreckage. He said something like...."think about it, who would have the means and reason to fake a plane crash?" I immediately said, "the island", she laughed. I then said, "you think I'm kidding, don't you?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I should add the edit that I think that there's something similar to the "force" in SW's involved which is described as a "living force".

het,
I guess you're right about the bodies.

Regarding both het's and cq's comments,
The thing about the wedding ring compared to, for example, his "wings", I'm not sure, but perhaps a ring is somehow something that you'd remember more lucidly, while the uniform they can put you in any old uniform and the mind fills in the gaps.

I don't have a clear answer, but I think that aspect of the story is unavoidable, and so it's just a question of working out the hows and whys.

And I can't help thinking that that business with the ring was put in there as a clue to what might have happened.

Also, if the Island is what duplicated the flight, etc., why would the second plane be there at all? Surely the Island has no need to do a cover-up. It would make a lot more sense, if it were the Island itself, to just snatch the plane from our world and take it into the Island's, with no need for a second plane.

The other factor is the fact that the plane is broken up in the same places.

Also, if the Island is what duplicated the flight, etc., why would the second plane be there at all? Surely the Island has no need to do a cover-up. It would make a lot more sense, if it were the Island itself, to just snatch the plane from our world and take it into the Island's, with no need for a second plane.

That could tie in with the argument you made in the Dnasli eht-thread; the plane was in the collective minds of the Losties, so the island produced it.

The other factor is the fact that the plane is broken up in the same places.
That's is an important factor. I can't really think of anything that could explain that, yet.

het_genie >
That could tie in with the argument you made in the Dnasli eht-thread; the plane was in the collective minds of the Losties, so the island produced it.


True. It's really weird at the moment - so many of my Theories are starting to overlap, and on the one hand that's good news because, in my mind, that reinforces the possibility that there's something to them; but at the same time, it all becomes very confusing.

Merry Christmas, everyone ! :a046:

Merry Christmas, everyone ! :a046:

No Christmas for me ~~ I celebrate Festivus!

What on Earth is "Festivus", het ? Is that a religious thing?

No Christmas for me ~~ I celebrate Festivus!

Merry Festivus het!

Is it Dec 25th on craphole already?

What on Earth is "Festivus", het ? Is that a religious thing?

More like a Seinfeld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus) thing...

Frank Costanza: Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way.

Cosmo Kramer: What happened to the doll?

Frank Costanza: It was destroyed. But out of that a new holiday was born: a Festivus for the rest of us!

Now, where's my Festivus! pole?

:biggrin:

What on Earth is "Festivus", het ? Is that a religious thing?

LOL

It's a Seinfeld thing. It's a holiday George Costanza's dad invented. "A festivus for the rest of us!". This is the abridged episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-wm9N0KiAs&feature=related

Sorry for this OT-stuff, but I got confused by your Christmas wish.

Yep, tonight we get to see a Very Merry Craphole Christmas.

What's the betting? Do people think there'll be :
a) No reference made.
b) A slight one.
c) A major point made - a conversation, christmas present, etc.

I think it'll be a). No mention whatsoever.

I've never watched Seinfeld. I've seen snippets but it just never appealed to me.

Yep, tonight we get to see a Very Merry Craphole Christmas.

What's the betting? Do people think there'll be :
a) No reference made.
b) A slight one.
c) A major point made - a conversation, christmas present, etc.

I think it'll be a). No mention whatsoever.

I've never watched Seinfeld. I've seen snippets but it just never appealed to me.

I'm guessing a) too, I imagine they'll be too occupied to notice it's Christmas.

If I had to pick someone on The Island to make a comment it'd be either James or Hugo, the people on the freighter might have put some tinsel up though, you never know!

Perhaps that's what Minkowski was up to? Decorating the tree?

ETA: I just remembered, Rose is keeping track of what day it is...

ROSE: Don't pay him any mind, honey. He's just mad at the world because he forgot my birthday.

BERNARD: I didn't forget. I don't even know what day of the week it is, Rose.

ROSE: It's Saturday, Bernard.

So it's quite likely that she knows what date it is too.

Richardstone >
Perhaps that's what Minkowski was up to? Decorating the tree?


:rotflmao2:

Seriously, though. What was up with that? Any ideas why he wouldn't be waiting for their call?

I go for option (a) as well.

Altough, we've had a lot of references to Christianity...

I was just thinking, talking about religion, in one of the Sneak Peeks we saw . . .
Sayid praying.

:rotflmao2:

Seriously, though. What was up with that? Any ideas why he wouldn't be waiting for their call?

Only idea I have is that Minkowski is Ben's "man on the boat"?

I can't wait to see him...

George Minkowski is played by the excellent Fisher Stevens (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Fisher_Stevens)

Although the Losties can be forgiven for forgetting Christmas, it's unlikely the Freighties would. After all, they can still get phone calls, emails, presents even, from their families, and no doubt there's a calendar on the ship somewhere.

One thing though - if "Even God can't see this island", can Santa?

kitdavis >
Although the Losties can be forgiven for forgetting Christmas, it's unlikely the Freighties would. After all, they can still get phone calls, emails, presents even, from their families, and no doubt there's a calendar on the ship somewhere.


True. So perhaps one of them will mention it. Charlotte seems the type. :d038:

About Minkowski not being available, I was trying to think of an explanation and something crazy came to me. I wasn't going to post it, but I've weakened. It is Christmas, after all.

Could it be that Ben's "man" is Jacob / Smokey / whatever, pretending to be Minkowski? I had been thinking it would make sense if there were one of the Losties that had been away and was back in some scene or another at the time Minkowski wasn't available. And then it hit me . . . Vincent was back !

No? Okay. But let's come up with something better.

I just came upon this thread when I was reading your sig, Lucidity, and I think the premise makes even more sense given some of the things we have seen in season four. I think you are spot on about the Lostaways being rescued from the "jaws of death". It certainly seems that many of those who find themselves on the island have been given a new lease on life (both literally and figuratively), and that paradox has been neatly averted by starting their "new life" at a time when they were on the brink of death at the hands of some catastrophe, often one which would have destroyed the "evidence" (plane crash, shipwreck, and in Juliet's case possibly even 9/11).

Hurley's comment to Jack at Santa Rosa, "Cause we're dead, all of us", echoed something Jack said to Kate on the beach, "Three days ago we all died...we should all be able to start over". It seems, however, that starting over needs to happen on the island. The lostaways have come to see that, although rescued, they are still dead inside. When Charlie told Hurley that he was "dead, but also here", I have a feeling he was not just speaking for himself. I believe Locke when he told Jack that they were never supposed to leave the island, that they were brought there for a purpose.

Now...what exactly is that purpose? I'm thinking it is twofold. The first purpose may be to give the lostaways a second chance to get some things right in their personal lives, a chance they would not have had otherwise. The second purpose, and this is purely speculation on my part, could be to play a part in averting some yet unseen catastrophe. Time travel, IMO, has been introduced for a reason. Perhaps we will come to find out that powerful forces with some knowledge of the future have been "summoning" people to the island in an attempt to further their particular agenda, covering their tracks along the way (using the "jaws of death" to avoid paradox).

Thanks for posting, Bickle. This is actually one of my favourite theories, but there's rarely much to add or discuss. I think we're going to get confirmation one way or another when we see the O6 return - if they pull up on shore in a boat, fine, but I'm guessing we're going to see another crash. They might even deliberately crash the plane, if Ben explains how to get back.


Bicklefitch >
The second purpose, and this is purely speculation on my part, could be to play a part in averting some yet unseen catastrophe. Time travel, IMO, has been introduced for a reason. Perhaps we will come to find out that powerful forces with some knowledge of the future have been "summoning" people to the island in an attempt to further their particular agenda, covering their tracks along the way (using the "jaws of death" to avoid paradox).

That's pretty much my thinking. As I've posted elsewhere recently, this idea of the people being put on the Island for later use seems to fit perfectly with Tom and Kate's "Time Capsule". They've even both got a plane.

I was posting before about the idea that some of the Losties might be able to avoid Course Correction and break away from their predestined path. Well, now reading your post, Bickle, I'm just wondering . . . could it be that now the Losties have died, in some sense at least, that they're no longer subject to Course Correction? That somehow they can now "fly under its radar"?

Richard,
Just saw the little birthday cake icon, Happy Birthday if you're on today. :cheers:

So Ben tells Jack to say goodbye to this life, and he's rounding up the O6 in a van with Reincarnation (http://node4.nirvanix.com/polldaddy/polldaddy/images/4e88466b-ab42-462d-8669-89c70b33a6a3.jpg) on the side.
Anyone else buying into the idea that they have to die to get to the Island yet?

it seems that they are teasing about both reincarnation and resurrection and it will be interesting to see which way it goes. what i cant get my head around is the idea that locke will get back the island and come back to life as somebody different to who he is - i just cant see how they would play that dramatically (especially as the actors are kept in the dark about the big picture). also christian shephard seems to be the same person as he always was. I feel the reincarnation angle will be more the tibetan buddhist model where locke has always been the reencarnation of somebody.

Yeah, I agree Locke is already someone's Reincarnation. As I keep saying, the beauty of Reincarnation PLUS Time Travel is that he could be the Reincarnation of anyone - dead, alive, or not yet born.

Christian, I don't think is Reincarnated. Perhaps he has reached the end of his "cycle" and has achieved Nirvana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana) - we did get the Nirvana song, Scentless Apprentice; a small clue? It was heard when Jack was on his way to Locke's funeral, so certainly at a time related to death.

The other big question is, how would this Reincarnation take place, because my idea right now is that we will be seeing two kinds - one through death and birth, but another which perhaps returns the soul to the same body at the same stage of their life, which would be how certain people are able to come and go from the Island.

Yeah, I agree Locke is already someone's Reincarnation. As I keep saying, the beauty of Reincarnation PLUS Time Travel is that he could be the Reincarnation of anyone - dead, alive, or not yet born.


thats a good point.

i think we may be seeing both resurrection and reincarnation themes going on.
i suppose reincarnation is lust like resurrection but you get a different body instead of the same one!

BlackLotus >
i suppose reincarnation is lust like resurrection but you get a different body instead of the same one!


Oh yeah, doh ! :doh:
I read "Reincarnation" and "Resurrection" in your earlier post and the distinction didn't really dawn on me.

So yeah, as you said, maybe we'll be getting both.

the common theme must be the soul living on after death - we have resurrection, reincarnation themes. we have miles who can speak to people after they are dead, we have the whispers, we have manifestations of dead people,

and libby says hi....

the common theme must be the soul living on after death - we have resurrection, reincarnation themes. we have miles who can speak to people after they are dead, we have the whispers, we have manifestations of dead people,

and libby says hi....

Despite Darlton's denial that the island is purgatory, I'll bet that Lucidity is right...all of the island arrivals have been clutched from the jaws of death. It would seem that this is supposed to be an island-only phenomenon. The recently deceased we have seen off-island have primarily been focused on "rounding up their own" and bringing them back. I'm thinking that someone (or more than one someone) has found a way to open a door between two worlds, and is trying to use it to their advantage.

I averted my eyes as quickly as I could, but does this thread begin by referring to a spoiler???????????? (if it's spoiler fonted, great, but I looked away in order to avoid knowing something about juliet i do NOT want to know!) can someone tell me if it's safe for me to read this thread, or if it contains a spoiler?
thanks--

Margalit >
I averted my eyes as quickly as I could, but does this thread begin by referring to a spoiler????????????

It was originally a Spoiler Theory, but when the Ep the Spoiler covered had aired I asked the Mods to move it over to General Theories. So don't worry, you're still Spoiler-free.


Bicklefitch >
I'm thinking that someone (or more than one someone) has found a way to open a door between two worlds, and is trying to use it to their advantage.

Yeah, I think that's what all of the "port" references are about - Mittelos was in PORTland, Libby's boat is from newPORT, the Black Rock is from PORTsmouth - there's the direct means a lot of people came to the Island. Then the restaurant Sayid was working in was called le PORTail. And there's also Paolo being from PORTugal - weaker, I know. I think there's another that I'm forgetting.

And not a direct "port" reference, but a very similar idea, and my favourite - Jin's "Seoul / Soul Gateway" hotel.

I'm pretty sure we'll get a definite answer to this question in the next Ep, when Hawking explains what they have to do to get back.

and of course the porterhouse!

The porterhouse, bl?

edit :
It's alright. I just looked it up on Lostpedia - Jill mentioned it to Ben, right?

We're getting there . . .

In the latest Promo we see Jack, Kate and Hurley on a plane which is apparently about to crash or something, and Hurley says "You might want to fasten your seatbelt". Oh, and Hawking says "Windows provide a route back" ("Event Windows", obviously).

So I'd say, from Hurley's comment, that they are forewarned there will be plane trouble, and I see two explanations - one is that the plane trouble is simply a result of entering the Island's "snowglobe", the other, my suggestion here, that the plane has to crash and they have to be about to die for the Island to pull them in. On that evidence alone I'd say the first explanation is more probable, but I'd say the theory's in with a chance when you consider how other people have arrived on the Island.

Here's Dark's page (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2009/02/episode-5x06-316-canadian-promo.html) for the Promo.

We're getting there . . .

In the latest Promo we see Jack, Kate and Hurley on a plane which is apparently about to crash or something, and Hurley says "You might want to fasten your seatbelt". Oh, and Hawking says "Windows provide a route back" ("Event Windows", obviously).

So I'd say, from Hurley's comment, that they are forewarned there will be plane trouble, and I see two explanations - one is that the plane trouble is simply a result of entering the Island's "snowglobe", the other, my suggestion here, that the plane has to crash and they have to be about to die for the Island to pull them in. On that evidence alone I'd say the first explanation is more probable, but I'd say the theory's in with a chance when you consider how other people have arrived on the Island.

Here's Dark's page (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2009/02/episode-5x06-316-canadian-promo.html) for the Promo.



Lucidity,

I don't think this theory actually hinges on whether the O6 die on their return to the island or not. To me, it seems likely that the O6 were snatched from the jaws of death the first time around. Since they were never "supposed" to get off the island in the first place, why should they have to die again (if that's even possible)? Destiny bought them a one way ticket to begin with...IMO they really shouldn't have to pay twice (and besides, I think Locke-in-the-box is picking up the tab on this flight).

Yeah, I think that's what all of the "port" references are about - Mittelos was in PORTland, Libby's boat is from newPORT, the Black Rock is from PORTsmouth - there's the direct means a lot of people came to the Island. Then the restaurant Sayid was working in was called le PORTail. And there's also Paolo being from PORTugal - weaker, I know. I think there's another that I'm forgetting.

And not a direct "port" reference, but a very similar idea, and my favourite - Jin's "Seoul / Soul Gateway" hotel.
And the people speaking Portugese, and Jin's being taught the word "port" (a weak one because he also learned "starboard"). This is a good one, which even with the Porterhouse, slipped by me completely.

Assuming it doesn't refer to the nautical way of saying "left", it must refer to carrying something. (Maybe Rousseau mentioned something about disease carriers too.) I'll take it as a clue to carrying a blood line.

Robert in the Bronx

Bickle,
You could be right, that it's accessing the Island for the first time that requires death or near-death situations, and that once on, certain people are allowed back through more simple means. But I actually think we're going to see the O6ers in an extreme situation, black out, and then wake up on the Island. And there's also a very real possibility that Hawking will actually tell them that they have to go "through" death to get there. Remember Ben telling Jack to basically say goodbye to that life.


Dr. Suds >
I'll take it as a clue to carrying a blood line.


You get that from the word "port" ? :ermm:

Soooooo, what's the consensus of opinion? Was the plane trouble a side-effect of entering some kind of portal, or was it a plane crash that Hawking knew was going to happen, and our Losties were plucked away just in the nick of time, which has always been my suggestion here.

I think this comment from Hawking :

If you have any hope of the Island bringing you back, it must be that plane. You all need to be on it. It must be that flight.

is too similar to this one from Malkin :

It has to be this flight. It can't be any other. They're already scheduled to meet you when you arrive. Flight 815. Flight 815.

to be a coincidence. I reckon they both knew the planes would crash, and that that's the key to getting to the Island.

And the people speaking Portugese, and Jin's being taught the word "port" (a weak one because he also learned "starboard"). This is a good one, which even with the Porterhouse, slipped by me completely.

Assuming it doesn't refer to the nautical way of saying "left", it must refer to carrying something. (Maybe Rousseau mentioned something about disease carriers too.) I'll take it as a clue to carrying a blood line.


You get that from the word "port" ? :ermm:
Maybe Dr. Suds is alluding to the verb (but also noun) "portage" (although I didn't find that "port" is a variation of "portage"; they obviously have the same Latin root).

From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage)
Portage refers to the practice of carrying a canoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canoe) or other boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat) over land to avoid an obstacle on the water route (such as rapids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid) or a waterfall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall) in a river (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River)), or between two bodies of water (such as over an isthmus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmus)). A place where this carrying occurs is also called a portage, while a person doing the carrying is called a porter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter)."portage" definitions (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=portage&search=search) at dictionary.com.

"port" definitions (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=port&search=search) at dictionary.com.

I didn't know that "port" is an informal synonym for "airport". ;)

Hi, me again...showing up to bother you on another one of your threads.:)

--
Part of my post from the "All my pasts and futures" thread that directed me here:

I definitely think Locke has a new body, and I like your comment that if Ben's analogy is supposed to work that he would have something to show he is the same body we saw when he was killed. Locke was beat up so much over the course of "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" that he should have wounds or something to show for it.

There is the oddness that some people showed up with wounds in both crashes, so it seems this body replacement thing isn't happening to everybody. Also, at least in 815 (not sure about 316 yet) some people were dead from the get go. (Did they just skip "island stage")? We did have some people who had wounds in the first crash...and Jack was the one with wounds on his torso reminiscent of Christ's wounds.

As for everyone who crashed on the island is supposed to be dead, this reminds me of in many books where aliens or time travelers from the future recruit for their population from dead people, because it doesn't create a paradox that messes with their time. The people are supposed to be dead, so the time travelers can't save them without changing history--but the time travelers can remove them right before their death and replace their bodies with other bodies without changing history. Isolated completely from the main course of space-time, they can presumably live out happy, healthy, and productive lives. (Also, if we assume course correction, if the time travelers do let the people live, they will eventually die in another way so that the time travelers can still exist).

If they were supposed to be dead or never exist in the first place--Walt, Aaron, and Ji Yeon all have to come back. Ben was unconcerned when he sent of Michael and Walt, as well as the helicopter folks, because he knew that they would either come back or die. Hurley claiming, "we're all dead" and Charlotte claiming "this place is death."
--

Two thoughts: Walt was supposed to die. Therefore, if we take course correction to be valid, he is going to die out in the real world...or he is going to need to return to the island.

Were Claire and Aaron originally going to be killed (either on the plane or elsewhere, since it seems the were manipulated to get on the plane)? If so, Aaron also needs to return or will die off island. Ji Yeon, in my opinion, wouldn't have even existed in the real world ever had Sun and Jin not boarded that particular airplane.

This might fit into the time police references, such as Jughead references to time police: Jughead's Time Police (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=107601)

Juliet helping them try to fix fertility problems might be connected with the idea that Richard's crowd actually are humans from the future that are really old (life extension).

I don't know how it works, but somehow water seems to be important to reincarnation/resurrection...CS's coffin is at the caves where the water is... Locke was found in the water... Kate and Hurley too. Desmond washes ashore, Jin washes ashore, Rousseau and her team wash ashore...

When Colleen Picket dies the Others send her out to sea on a burning raft wishing her a good reincarnation.

Charlotte Malkin nearly drowned and went to the place between.

As we have seen desert (earth) is the exit. Perhaps water is the entrance?

simone5p, I have kind of been looking at water in connection to something I've been calling an "island baptism." I have this idea that whenever a character swims or bathes on the island, they are reborn and wiped clean of all of their past life ("tabula rasa"). Therefore, any bad choices they have made disappear once they have bathed in the water (assuming the water is "clean").

I wonder if the idea of "island baptism" or "island Mikvah" in living water as some sort of rebirth connects with your idea.

Water is a reflective surface.

Water is a reflective surface.

Jane, are you suggesting that my "island baptism" idea might be actually a switching to a mirror version of the self?

Jane, are you suggesting that my "island baptism" idea might be actually a switching to a mirror version of the self?

Who knows. She likes to be vague and cryptic.

Who knows. She likes to be vague and cryptic.

I know, but it's always worth reaching out someone, no matter how cryptic they might be.:)

water is also a magnifier...

Wet Walt and Wet Harper?

I'll take it as a clue to carrying a blood line.
You get that from the word "port" ? :ermm:
Not without context. From what I've already deduced about Lost, a clue referring to the carrying of something most likely refers to that.

I don't know how it works, but somehow water seems to be important to reincarnation/resurrection...CS's coffin is at the caves where the water is... Locke was found in the water... Kate and Hurley too. Desmond washes ashore, Jin washes ashore, Rousseau and her team wash ashore...

When Colleen Picket dies the Others send her out to sea on a burning raft wishing her a good reincarnation.

Charlotte Malkin nearly drowned and went to the place between.

As we have seen desert (earth) is the exit. Perhaps water is the entrance?

There is also the shot (in White Rabbit I believe) where Jack sees a figure standing in the water facing the ocean just like Locke when the woman, Ilana?, come to question him. Also, there's the painting in I think Kate's house with a lone figure, I believe there is also one (or the same painting) at Jack's first apartment, with a figure standing in the water in that position... as an aside... did Jack paint that picture from his memory or subconscious... his psyche working out something important rather like you sometimes do with a dream?

squid

Bumping this excellent thread for Jimmy is Lost.

Bumping this excellent thread for Jimmy is Lost.

thaaaaaaaaaaanks

i have seen this thread.....but wanted to avoid posting spoilers as i know the first page contains one :biggrin: so i left out the 9/11 stuff......
it was this thread that gave me the idear for the jaws of death threat i have now started......and has now got my thinker ticking even more...........

~runs to up-date his other thread~

thanks again big mouth