Gregg Nations came back online this weekend... with a vengeance. Two posters over the last few months had made very detailed recountings of all the inconsistencies and contradictions regarding the flight time, the time of the crash and other time issues about Oceanic 815. Here's Gregg's response to Post 1 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67462):

Ironically enough, I just had this entire debate with a couple of the writers. Were you listening in? The one thing I can comment on and agree with is it's a mess.

There is one other element that no one has taken into consideration yet, and I'm certainly not going to tell you what it is. Good luck figuring out what it is.

And here's his response to Post 2 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67400):

This is a mess. I don't know if you had a chance to read my answer on another question like this, but I just had this conversation with the writers. Funny how these things come up like this, huh?

This is what I'll comment on. I think you can safely say the plane crashed at 4:16 island time. But there is one other thing no one has taken into consideration yet. And like I said in the other posting, good luck figuring it out.


And there you go, 'Lagers! The gauntlet has been thrown. Can you figure it out?

(And I think it's a strong possibility there's a big piece of evidence we don't have yet.)

I saw that too. But, off topic, but better still - he also went some way to dispersing the myth that is The Clue from the Pilot :

Kephren asked :

"Hi Gregg, is it true that the pilot episodes are 2 of the most important episodes till now? and are there hints that we haven't realized yet?"



And Gregg answered :
"Yes, just back me into a corner and make everyone hate me. If I say yes, everyone's going to spend hours going through the pilot frame by frame looking for any clue they can find. (And that's assuming they haven't already done that.) If I say no, it's going to fan the flames that Damon has no idea what he's doing and completely making it up as he goes along (much like I'm making up this answer as I type).

So... yes, no? Six of one, half a dozen of another? Maybe, maybe not? Can penguins really dance?"



But, yes, getting back to the topic at hand.
My suggestion is that they flew East not West.

But, yes, getting back to the topic at hand.
My suggestion is that they flew East not West.


Whoa, why do think they flew East instead of West? Do you think they were flying towards Africa or India instead of the U.S. or they flew East, all the way around the world, and then ended up in the Pacific?
That is an interesting idea.

I really have no idea about the time thing.

Before everyone goes pointing out how wrong I am, "East not West" was just my way of saying they flew in the opposite direction to whatever direction it is they're supposed to have flown in, that way flying in a different direction with regard to the Sun and timelines.
But I have no idea what direction they're supposed to have flown in, so it might be North not South for all I know.

I was hoping someone would start this thread. I'm dying to rewatch the pilot to see what we missed but I lent my DVD out to my niece and won't be able to get it back until summer. :(


The direction thing is an interesting thought...

Before everyone goes pointing out how wrong I am, "East not West" was just my way of saying they flew in the opposite direction to whatever direction it is they're supposed to have flown in, that way flying in a different direction with regard to the Sun and timelines.
But I have no idea what direction they're supposed to have flown in, so it might be North not South for all I know.

I wasn't pointing out that you were wrong. I just wanted to know more of your thoughts about that idea because it is interesting. But then the question would be, why were they flying east to west? Were the passengers messed with on the plane, so that they didn't realize that they had been flying for much longer than they thought they had been?

briar910 >
I wasn't pointing out that you were wrong.


No, I know. I wasn't suggesting you were.
It was just that when I was reading your post I suddenly thought Hmm, maybe I should have said West not East? And then I started thinking about how much Geography hates me. And so I thought I'd add a little disclaimer.

The idea came to me when I was reading Gregg Nations responses and that "there is one other thing no one has taken into consideration yet". I took that to mean one "normal" thing, not time travel, portals, etc. And then this idea came to me.

But there's probably some reason why that doesn't work as an explanantion either.
It seems too easy, given the time and threads that have been devoted to the question.

CR,

Interestin' comments by Gregg. I tend to agree that we're missin' somethin' fairly obvious. I also really think they did go east instead of west and are on an island similar to Desolation Island (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15206) (an old theory of mine).

I went back over to The big Lost Unanswered Questions List (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=24628) thread to see if it sparked any ideas. I'm not all the way through, yet, and so far I haven't found anything (that's a big list!) but I still wanted to post the link here in case someone else sees something I might have missed.

Oooh interesting. I still think there is something missing, there will be something, don't know how far in the future we will get it, but something that will stand out bigger than all other time hints.

(And I think it's a strong possibility there's a big piece of evidence we don't have yet.)

I think this is very likely as well, it would be the one way that Gregg can be certain we haven't and can't figure it out. There have been so many thoughts and posts about the plane and it's travels that I can't imagine everyone missing the clue/aspect if we have been given all the information.

People have been saying that the plane flew in a different direction for a long time, so even if that is the case, i don't think gregg would say we haven't thought of that idea yet because many people have.

Here's some random ideas,

(a) perhaps the plane didn't actually leave from Sydney.

(b) did something happen on the plane that none of the passengers have talked about yet, and we haven't seen in a FB. eg they went through heavy turbulence earlier in the flight, there was a half hour delay before the plane took off, it landed someone where for a quick refuel etc.

definitely probably gonna turn out to be some mundane detail that we're gonna look at and go wtf how come we didnt think of that

Here's a possibility.
When we see Desmond look at the pearl log (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1009), we interpret 922044:16 as September 22, 2004, 4:16. Month, day, year, time.
But then look at another page of the log (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1064&pos=410). Not only is there an extra digit in, say, 41602122:29, but it tells us that the format cannot be: month, day, etc., because there are too many numbers for it to be April 16, and 41 can't be a day or month.
So I'm thinking that the only way it can make sense is this:
the 021 in the longer log may mean 2021 (April 16, 2021, 10:29 pm))
and
the 922044:16 may mean September 22, 2044, at 12:16, or September 2, 2204, 4:16 pm.

OR, the September log is accurate, but the other page with the extra digit shows that time moves pretty darn quickly on that island

OR the September 22 log is doctored up for their benefiot- the real time would be in the future. It's the other log, with the extra digit, that shows us the island is in the future, it seems to me.
I'll go over this again, my math could be wrong.

Oh the other thing is what does Gregg mean when he says it's a mess?

Did the writers mess up and present contradictory facts?

Is the missing element too hard to explain without getting confusing and messy?

Is there in fact more than one theory going around the writing staff and they are debating which one to use?

the other thing is how does gregg really know all the crazy theories we've dome up with down the time

My suggestion is that they flew East not West.

Maybe they did. However, it was suggested in the post to which Nations was responding. Based on that, it should probably be ruled out as an element not considered.

Based on that 10 digit log, I'm thinking that it's 2021 on the island and that the crash-day log was doctored. I can't think of another way to understand it - why would there be ten digits, otherwise?

Based on that 10 digit log, I'm thinking that it's 2021 on the island and that the crash-day log was doctored. I can't think of another way to understand it - why would there be ten digits, otherwise?

The only thing about being in the future is that Jack would not be surprised about the red sox, he would know they won the world series, unless the losties moved forward in time and didn't know it.

Lucky4me, Gregg confirmed the time should be considered 4:16 island time. Not sure how that affects the other log entry, though...

This is a mess. I don't know if you had a chance to read my answer on another question like this, but I just had this conversation with the writers. Funny how these things come up like this, huh?

This is what I'll comment on. I think you can safely say the plane crashed at 4:16 island time. But there is one other thing no one has taken into consideration yet. And like I said in the other posting, good luck figuring it out.



Pen and Gus, good thoughts.


Lostmio, thanks for reminding me I need to go back and read the questions Gregg was responding to. LOL!

Based on that 10 digit log, I'm thinking that it's 2021 on the island and that the crash-day log was doctored. I can't think of another way to understand it - why would there be ten digits, otherwise?
lucky:) I remembered this was discussed back when that epi aired...check out posts #5, #8 and #10 in this thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=980866), by Sharon Alva. Basically, the premise is that the 10-digit count is minutes (or units) between "button pushings".
#5:

If the log entries are hours:minutes, they increment by 107 or 108 minutes, so that's consistent with a log of each time the Swan button is pushed. If the count started at zero, that would be about 4750 years.

#8:
The number before the colon (e.g., 41602100) is hours and the two digits after the colon are minutes. Each successive entry follows the preceding entry by 1:47 or 1:48. Unfortunately, you can't see that in the screen cap posted on Lost-Media.

#10:
Also, the entries go from 41602099:xx to 41602100:xx.
But unless there's somewhere odd about Time (or the units on the counter are not minutes, but something much shorter than a minute), the count wouldn't have started at zero. And if the units are much shorter than a minute, then the hatchies' and Losties' perception of time passage would be questionable.
Of course, there is that alleged dialogue that was cut, where Danielle was asked by Sayid what her team was studying, and she answered "Time". (per David Fury interview)

The only thing about being in the future is that Jack would not be surprised about the red sox, he would know they won the world series, unless the losties moved forward in time and didn't know it.

I guess I was thinking that maybe they had been kept somewhere in the interim, but even if they were frozen or something, that's a heck of a long time.

Gregg confirms the time, but doesn't confirm the year on the island, right? I kind of hate the idea of the island being in the future, however. Enough is enough with the conspiracies.

(a) perhaps the plane didn't actually leave from Sydney.
Hurley checked in at SYD and I believe there were other mentions of Sydney. The only way to make this work is if they bussed them to another city or ferried them to an outlying island or somewhere to take off the next morning.
Why would they transfer them to a smaller airport, and what plot purpose would that transfer serve?

(b) did something happen on the plane that none of the passengers have talked about yet, and we haven't seen in a FB. eg they went through heavy turbulence earlier in the flight, there was a half hour delay before the plane took off, it landed someone where for a quick refuel etc.
These would complicate and not fix the time discrepancies at issue. The flight time appears to have been shorter, not longer than previously presented. If it was longer, then it would have to be 12-18 hours longer, to account for the 4:16 PM daylight landing.
That's assuming the island is in one of the standard time zones, as we know them. If not, then right there's the explanation, we need look no further.
100%
Gregg confirms the time, but doesn't confirm the year on the island, right? I kind of hate the idea of the island being in the future, however.

Regardless of year, the time discrepancy still stares us in the face.

Perhaps it was just a really, really, really fast plane.:biggrin: Like it was some sort of experimental aviation that was being practiced (without passenger knowlege) on passenger jets.

I think that just confuses matters even more though.

If the plane was flying off course, another thing to take into consideration is that it would have to avoid the flight paths of other planes in the area, this could get really complicated and might require an odd flight path dodging and zig zagging to avoid other planes. That would change the distance and location the plane could be.

Also, why was Gregg just talking about this with the writers, is something about the plane coming up in an upcoming epi? Was he looking through the flight 815 bible and noticed a big discrepancy?

I guess I was thinking that maybe they had been kept somewhere in the interim, but even if they were frozen or something, that's a heck of a long time.

Gregg confirms the time, but doesn't confirm the year on the island, right? I kind of hate the idea of the island being in the future, however. Enough is enough with the conspiracies.

Only thing is the posters did ask him about the year, so he naturally wouldn't comment on it.

Perhaps it was just a really, really, really fast plane.:biggrin: Like it was some sort of experimental aviation that was being practiced (without passenger knowlege) on passenger jets..

Lol that's actually not a bad explanation!

heres my next possibility for things we may not have considered with respects to the flight time discrepancies, perhaps the times are not right because different people have different recollections of the events... for example check out this gregg Q&A http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66535

And lest we forget the 6 hour-2 hour discrepancy...

PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.
ANA: We were in the air for 2 hours -- I didn't see him once -- not once.

But this is something that many people have caught, and mentioned to Gregg.

This is what I'll comment on. I think you can safely say the plane crashed at 4:16 island time. But there is one other thing no one has taken into consideration yet. And like I said in the other posting, good luck figuring it out.
I think the phrase "island time," is curious. Perhaps as some have suggested, Island time moves differently than non-Island time?

Gregg could be messing with us, but I think "island time" just means whatever time zone the island is in, which we don't know. For example, there is Eastern Standard time, central/mountain time, West Coast time, Hawaiian time, etc.

I think the phrase "island time," is curious. Perhaps as some have suggested, Island time moves differently than non-Island time?


I think you nailed it. Why else would he say "island time", unless he's talking about the specific time zone, but i think that is irrelevant to the question being asked, correct?

I really think island time moves differently than non-island time. The question is, slower or faster?

the microchosm isnt really a new theory though

The other thing about there [allegedly] being something odd about Time on The Island, is that it could explain the much-complained-about behavior of the Losties in regards to events that have occurred. Examples are the things they haven't done, the things they haven't talked about (on camera), their alleged memory loss, their inexplicable dumb actions (Sayid's plan that resulted in Sun shooting Colleen on Des' boat...etc.).

If they have lost their "current Time marker", then they would be Lost In Time (in their minds). I've posted about this many times before. Obviously, not eloquently enough...but since everything about Time is relative...if they have somehow (insert scientific/pseudo-scientific/sci-fi explanation here) lost their ability to accurately reference the past, present and future...then they would be quite LOST.

I keep thinking that they're not just LOST on an Island...they're LOST in Time...LOST in their minds.

Perhaps it was just a really, really, really fast plane.:biggrin: Like it was some sort of experimental aviation that was being practiced (without passenger knowlege) on passenger jets.


It has nothing to do with the speed of the plane. The problems are with how long they were in the air, not how fast they flew.

To summarize:
The plane departed approx 14:15 Sydney time, and should have been heading generally westward.
Nations says they went down at 16:16.

Airline Pilot: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.14:15 + 6 hours = 20:15, 21:15, or 22:15, depending upon the time zone. That's 8:15 PM or 9:15 PM or 10:15 PM.
Doesn't work. Doesn't match the time Nations gave us OR the daylight crash.
The plane flying faster, or an in-air delay or wandering around doesn't change how long the flight lasted.

Cindy:
Before the crash, the pilot said we'd lost communication, we were turning back. We were flying for 2 hours in the wrong direction. They don't know where to look.
Previously we thought this 2 hours might mean the time after they turned around. But as we've seen above that doesn't work.

So take Cindy at face value, they were only in the air for 2 hours (which Ana L. claimed, twice):
14:15 + 2 hours = 16:15, almost exactly the time the plane went down.
But it would mean they lost comms & turned back immediately upon take-off, then inexplicably continued to fly for 2 hours, rather than land. This makes no sense at all.
Again, the plane flying faster or delays enroute doesn't change the time they were in the air.

edited to add: I haven't yet come up with an out-and-back formula or route that would cross a time zone going and coming, allow 2 hours for the return (per Cindy) and land them somewhere where it's 4:16 PM. Working on it.
TEven if that's possible, it's still contradicted by the script.
Here's a good time-zone map of the area (http://www.worldtimezone.com/time-oceania12.php).

I think you nailed it. Why else would he say "island time", unless he's talking about the specific time zone, but i think that is irrelevant to the question being asked, correct?

I really think island time moves differently than non-island time. The question is, slower or faster?


I think it would be faster if it was moving at all. This would perhaps explain why Walt seemed to grow up quickly.

But then again, he appeared to grow up faster when taken off the Island by the Others... so perhaps Island Time is slower.... Oh, the confusuion :confused: :rolleyes:

But if the plane was flying faster it could conceivably reach another area of the earth where it would be daylight. And the 4:15pm time could very well be a special time for the island.

yeah and its 4:15 island time which i would assume is not in the same time zone as Australia (2:15)

But if the plane was flying faster it could conceivably reach another area of the earth where it would be daylight. And the 4:15pm time could very well be a special time for the island.

Ah, thanks penyours. You made more sense of my theory than I did. :grin:

It seems that AL, Cindy, and the Pilot all contradict each other when it comes to how long they were in the air. If we knew which one was right, it might help. Or not. ;)

This is the best I can do, and it's still an hour off...

1. 16:16 Leave Sydney.
2. 17:16, after flying NE for approx 1 hour, lose comms in an area where "turning back to Fiji" is a viable fictional scenario. (maybe Solomon Islands area)
4. 17:16 - 19:16 fly blind, generally westward, for 2 hours (as Cindy said).
5. Go down in the vicinity of New Guinea at 19:16 Sydney time, 17:16 New Guinea time.

edit: Change #4 to one hour, and they'd hit New Guinea at 4:16 PM. Total flight time: 2 hours, like Cindy and AL said. !!!!!


But if the plane was flying faster it could conceivably reach another area of the earth where it would be daylight.

Even if they flew from Sydney to LA in one hour, they still wouldn't arrive in LA until 9:16 PM, well after dark.

Even if they flew from Sydney to LA in one hour, they still wouldn't arrive in LA until 9:16 PM, well after dark.

Not LA, the idea is that they fly to another destination where it would be daylight, if the plane flies faster than expected it could go to the other side of the earth for all we know. That's main point about the plane flying faster is that it could reach a region of the earth where it would not be nighttime.

Even if they flew from Sydney to LA in one hour, they still wouldn't arrive in LA until 9:16 PM, well after dark.


What if then they turned around and went east, where they would be gaining time and light?


Or, how about as Desmond says the plane was "stuck in a bloody snow globe"?
The plane was essentially flying in circles, just as Desmond was, and what the Pilot thought was a "1000 miles off course" is actually incorrect because the island messes with navigational systems?

Not LA, the idea is that they fly to another destination where it would be daylight, if the plane flies faster than expected it could go to the other side of the earth for all we know. That's main point about the plane flying faster is that it could reach a region of the earth where it would not be nighttime.

Two points:
1. If the plane was flying even fast enough to reach LA in one hour, the passengers couldn't stand up.
2. If they speed up, they'll still continue to travel deeper into the darkness. Pull out a globe or a world map with the time zones and you'll see what I mean. Have them cross 4 time zones every hour and they'd never find daylight. Ever. They'd circle perpetually in darkness. If they cross 6 time zones every hour, they'd be perpetually chasing sunset around the globe.
100%
What if then they turned around and went east, where they would be gaining time and light?


Yes, this has been proposed numerous times in the past as the "Indian Ocean" theory.
Also see my New Guinea example above.
One problem with this is that folks think the passengers would have noticed.

2. If they speed up, they'll still continue to travel deeper into the darkness. Pull out a globe or a world map with the time zones and you'll see what I mean. Have them cross 4 time zones every hour and they'd never find daylight. Ever. They'd circle perpetually in darkness. If they cross 6 time zones every hour, they'd be perpetually chasing sunset around the globe.

That's what the original point was if the plane flew really fast it would eventually hit the time zones with daylight, or because it flew faster it would reach parts of the world people didn't consider before, the plane doesn't have to fly eastwards either.

As a separate thought, if island time does follow a certain time zone, what time zone and parts of the world would be at 4:16pm according the various accounts of flight duration.

That's what the original point was if the plane flew really fast it would eventually hit the time zones with daylight.
No, they wouldn't. I'm not explaining it well, I'm sorry. Maybe someone else can.
Regardless, they didn't, it's impossible, they wouldn't have been talking and walking and drinking liquids on a vehicle travelling that fast. And why would they have chosen to overshoot LA and keep circling the globe about 28 times rather than just land?

As a separate thought, if island time does follow a certain time zone, what time zone and parts of the world would be at 4:16pm according the various accounts of flight duration.

See my post 36 above for one example.
Gregg's response helped lots but there are still variables and ambiguities and contradictions and at least one unknown element :).

If the plane could fly faster, it could fly west and be in daylight and could be farther away from australia then mentioned. It could fly north then west, it could fly south then west, it could basically be placed anywhere where it is daylight regardless of flight time, it's just a suggestion.

if you flew west you would stay in daylight but if you flew east you would have much shorter days either way you would be able to feel the g force of the flight

heres something with time zones http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/redwingspics/flight815.gif

if you flew west you would stay in daylight

You're right, I said it backwards, didn't I? SYD to LA is east.
Speed still doesn't help, though.

You're right, I said it backwards, didn't I? SYD to LA is east.
Speed still doesn't help, though.

omg thats why i was so confused wow

the thing that LOOMS out at me is the internatinal date line

omg thats why i was so confused wow

Sorry about that! And I corrrected my New Guinea post.

Your image has world wide time zones, but it doesn't show the quirks of the South Pacific time zone lines. They wander all over. This is a nice link: Oceania Time Zone Map (http://www.worldtimezone.com/time-oceania24.php).
It has color codes, which help.

JACK: What do you mean you won't put it on the plane?

AGENT: I'm sorry Mr. Shephard, but our policy is that the body must have the proper documentation. There's just no latitude.

JACK: ]No latitude? No latitude?
But what about longitude? See, the thing is, latitude is easy to figure out. You start from the equator and work up or down dividing up the space according to nautical miles. Furthermore, if you were on a 17th century ship, say, you could determine your latitudinal location based on the pole stars, or where the sun happened to be.

But longitude is trickier. There is no natural starting point from which one can begin, and there is no natural way to determine where you are--the stars and sun tell you nothing about your longitudinal location. Before the 1600s you had to rely on dead reckoning to determine your location. And this, in turn, caused a lot of shipwrecks.

So this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudesley_Shovell) created the Longitude Prize for anyone who could figure out how to determine longitude (kind of the X-Prize of its day). And John Harrison won the contest by creating the H-4 chronometer. It kept track of the local time in London as his son sailed (from Portsmouth (http://pub16.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=1299859001&img=95999), no less) to Barbados, whose longitude was already known. He was only off by 10 miles when he arrived.

But that's not the point. The point is that longitude is dependent on TIME whereas latitude is dependent on GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION:

Longitude at a point may be determined by calculating the time difference between that at its location and Coordinated Universal Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time) (UTC). Since there are 24 hours in a day and 360 degrees in a circle, the sun moves across the sky at a rate of 15 degrees per hour (360°/24 hours = 15° per hour). So if the time zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone) a person is in is three hours ahead of UTC then that person is near 45° longitude (3 hours × 15° per hour = 45°). The word near was used because the point might not be at the center of the time zone; also the time zones are defined politically, so their centers and boundaries often do not lie on meridians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_%28astronomy%29) at multiples of 15°. In order to perform this calculation, however, a person needs to have a chronometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronometer) (watch) set to UTC and needs to determine local time by solar observation or astronomical observation. The details are more complex than described here: see the articles on Universal Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Time) and on the Equation of time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time) for more details.And perhaps this is beyond my ken or ability to explain what it is that I'm trying to get at, but perhaps it isn't "latitude" that Oceanic Airlines didn't have, but longitude. Perhaps there was some sort of disruption of time (longitude) when the hatch exploded, albeit a brief one, and that can explain the 4 hour discrepancy in the pilot's and Cindy's stories? (Because, honestly, that is one of the biggest things that nags at me. There is no way you can mistake 6 hours for 2. Or 2 for 6. So which is it? Where are the other 4 hours?)

Maybe someone else can make something out of this?

I think think he mentions "the mess" possibly because something's about to happen that will make the mess irrelevant.

The other thing that stands out for me is the definitive "4:16 island time" thing... which means that in relation to the Island it is 4:16. But if time in relation to the Island is different than time in relation to the rest of the world then you've possibly got the seeds of the "brain frying moment" Damon has been hinting out since San Diego Comic-Con.

Huh? I think latitude is just another word for leeway. The agent was just telling Jack there was no loophole for putting Christian on the plane. There was no way around it because it was the airline's policy.

Huh? I think latitude is just another word for leeway. The agent was just telling Jack there was no loophole for putting Christian on the plane. There was no way around it because it was the airline's policy.

Obviously. I was attempting to extract something more interesting and/or metaphorical from that exchange. The writers often play with the language. I never meant to suggest that the ticket agent was saying that OA has no literal "latitude." I was simply exploring the phrase beyond it's idiomatic usage.

I think think he mentions "the mess" possibly because something's about to happen that will make the mess irrelevant.

The other thing that stands out for me is the definitive "4:16 island time" thing... which means that in relation to the Island it is 4:16. But if time in relation to the Island is different than time in relation to the rest of the world then you've possibly got the seeds of the "brain frying moment" Damon has been hinting out since San Diego Comic-Con.

CR: The "Island Time" business really stands out like a sore thumb to me, too. But then what to make of Ben's reveal of the Red Sox winning the World Series? Are they in the relative future? Or the relative past? And if in the relative past, then how does Ben have access to information about the future--unless they can somehow see into it. I think I'm beginning to develop a headache.

But what about longitude? See, the thing is, latitude is easy to figure out. You start from the equator and work up or down dividing up the space according to nautical miles. Furthermore, if you were on a 17th century ship, say, you could determine your latitudinal location based on the pole stars, or where the sun happened to be.

But longitude is trickier. There is no natural starting point from which one can begin, and there is no natural way to determine where you are--the stars and sun tell you nothing about your longitudinal location. Before the 1600s you had to rely on dead reckoning to determine your location. And this, in turn, caused a lot of shipwrecks.

So this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudesley_Shovell) created the Longitude Prize for anyone who could figure out how to determine longitude (kind of the X-Prize of its day). And John Harrison won the contest by creating the H-4 chronometer. It kept track of the local time in London as his son sailed (from Portsmouth (http://pub16.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=1299859001&img=95999), no less) to Barbados, whose longitude was already known. He was only off by 10 miles when he arrived.

But that's not the point. The point is that longitude is dependent on TIME whereas latitude is dependent on GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION:

And perhaps this is beyond my ken or ability to explain what it is that I'm trying to get at, but perhaps it isn't "latitude" that Oceanic Airlines didn't have, but longitude. Perhaps there was some sort of disruption of time (longitude) when the hatch exploded, albeit a brief one, and that can explain the 4 hour discrepancy in the pilot's and Cindy's stories? (Because, honestly, that is one of the biggest things that nags at me. There is no way you can mistake 6 hours for 2. Or 2 for 6. So which is it? Where are the other 4 hours?)

Maybe someone else can make something out of this?
You may be onto something, Todell. The multitude of globe and watch references on the show...actual globes...actual watches...

Oh, and the actual dysfunctional compasses...

That's all I've got right now...

True Briar, but TPTB have been known to use just that sort of dialog to give us their hints. They're sooo sneaky that way! :biggrin:

eta: does anyone remember any passenger looking at a watch during the pilot?

Try it going the other way.
Going to LA is northeast, fly southwest instead, 6 to 8 hours flight time at around 500 mph , 3 to 4 thousand miles, you cross 4 time zones on this heading. If you took off at 2:15pm local four time zones back the time would be10:15 am local, the flight takes 6 hours you cross through 4 time zones and travel 3000 miles kinda like flying from New York to LA 3000 miles 4 time zones.. so 2:15 +6 hours = 8:15pm local {SYD time}, 10:15 local +6= 4:15pm Antarctic time.

I haven't taken the time to read all the posts that has been submitted, but after reading what Nations said I couldn't but think of Umberto Eco's The Island Of The Day Before. In this novel the main character finds himself stranded alone in an island after a shipwreck, and thinks that he is in the International Date Line (an imaginary line which offsets the date as one travels east or west across it).

Just my two cents,

Obviously. I was attempting to extract something more interesting and/or metaphorical from that exchange. The writers often play with the language. I never meant to suggest that the ticket agent was saying that OA has no literal "latitude." I was simply exploring the phrase beyond it's idiomatic usage.



Oh ok. lol. That makes sense now, but I don't think there was any hidden meaning behind it. JMO :)

I think I'm beginning to develop a headache.

I think the more pertinent question would be if your brain is frying ;)

Yeah, my head hurts too and you guys know way more than me on this type of stuff. I may quit on this one and just wait it out. :)

But to be honest I think the 'snowglobe effect' has something to do with the time and space discrepencies that happened with the plane, just like how Desmond thought he should have been in Figi within two weeks, but it didn't happen for some reason. That's all I got.

Ok, I know this has been discussed in other threads, but I thought this was a good place to bring it up again:smile:

As we've already discussed, TPTB leave clues in dialog and props. Books have played a large role in the prop-type hints, Watership Down, Carrie, etc. A book mentioned in other threads is A Wrinkle In Time.

This brings me to my suggestion: what if 815 passed through some sort of tesseract? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension
In theory, a tesseract, or fold in space/time could explain some of the time "mess".
At one point one of TPTB said something about being able to explain Lost with science. Although tesseracts are just theoretical science, it still qualifies, (I think:) )

And lest we forget the 6 hour-2 hour discrepancy...

Quote:
PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.
Quote:
ANA: We were in the air for 2 hours -- I didn't see him once -- not once.
I haven't thought that to be problematic, because there's at least one easy way to interpret it that would not conflict with a 6 hour flight time. Ana didn't say they were in the air for only 2 hours. The above can be read as, "Out of the total time we were in the air, there was a 2 hour period in which I didn't see him once. Who spends that long in the toilet?"
Robert

I think think he mentions "the mess" possibly because something's about to happen that will make the mess irrelevant.

I hope so that would probably make things quite interesting.

Thinking about Desmond sailing around in circles...are they dealing with a sphere or whirlpool phenomina, be it magnetic or otherwise? What if, the island/sphere is like a planet, or somehow has planet orbit properties. When 815 came into contact with their orbit, the plane was 'captured', just as a planet will capture a comet and keep it in their orbit, what if they became part of the time equation on that planet? Planets, by nature of their orbits have different time zones, so to speak. They may have left Sidney at 14:15 and landed on the island in 'island time' 4:16. Sci-fi readers wouldn't blink, they know time is different on other planets. (I know, too far out.) The real problem I see, is if the writers try to sell it to us...as per the question about the little airplanes finding the island and the somewhat different circumstances flight 815 was meant to be given. How to explain that?
100%
I haven't taken the time to read all the posts that has been submitted, but after reading what Nations said I couldn't but think of Umberto Eco's The Island Of The Day Before. In this novel the main character finds himself stranded alone in an island after a shipwreck, and thinks that he is in the International Date Line (an imaginary line which offsets the date as one travels east or west across it).

Just my two cents,

Nice! I know we talked about the international date line and the poem about the lost day...
The possibility that the island is bobbing back and forth between the day before and the day after...such fun! But, I believe this is the first time anyone brought up Eco's book!

But Charlie wrote LATE on his hand...how is it that they could have been late?

I still say what I said at the beginning - they were flying in a different direction.
I think that the way Gregg said there was something that we weren't taking into account, I understood that to mean something normal. It wouldn't make sense if he was thinking of "Time Travel" or "Super-Planes", because that's not something you "take into account". "Take into account" means it's something we've forgotten, not something we haven't theorised.

And I think he's referring to the questions he's been asked in his section, not something that hasn't been brought up here in the General Theories section, because there can't be much that hasn't been suggested here, and, as someone pointed out earlier, he couldn't possibly know everything that has and hasn't.

And the "mess". I'm guessing they didn't plan on the different direction thing, but they've decided to use it as an explanation.

Speaking of which :

Comfortably Numb >
Try it going the other way.
Going to LA is northeast, fly southwest instead, 6 to 8 hours flight time at around 500 mph , 3 to 4 thousand miles, you cross 4 time zones on this heading. If you took off at 2:15pm local four time zones back the time would be10:15 am local, the flight takes 6 hours you cross through 4 time zones and travel 3000 miles kinda like flying from New York to LA 3000 miles 4 time zones.. so 2:15 +6 hours = 8:15pm local {SYD time}, 10:15 local +6= 4:15pm Antarctic time.



And regarding :

lostmio >
Maybe they did. However, it was suggested in the post to which Nations was responding. Based on that, it should probably be ruled out as an element not considered.


No, it wasn't mentioned in either of the questions.
What one of them DID say was about flying in the wrong direction for 2 hours, but that would be after flying in the assumed direction for 4 hours. Not the idea that they took off and simply flew in a different direction to the assumed one from the start.

And Ana Lucía saying 2 hours flight time, I'm going with it being a mistake. Cindy had said about 2 hours in the wrong direction and Ana Lucía had said about Nathan disappearing for 2 hours. I guess it was just a slip up.

The thing we havn't considered might be that although it was 4.15 island time, world time was still correct and running concurrently. So in fact the real time was 14:15 + 6 hours equalling 20:15, 21:15, or 22:15, depending upon the time zone. That's 8:15 PM or 9:15 PM or 10:15 PM.
So you're thinking why was it bright on the Island. Easy, the Island has it's own wheater systems.

What about.... a Time Bubble?

Now I have to be honest here; and say I've never heard of such a thing - but the two words have popped into my head together and I think they might at least be worth a Google.

*pops! off*

Obviously. I was attempting to extract something more interesting and/or metaphorical from that exchange. The writers often play with the language. I never meant to suggest that the ticket agent was saying that OA has no literal "latitude." I was simply exploring the phrase beyond it's idiomatic usage.


CR: The "Island Time" business really stands out like a sore thumb to me, too. But then what to make of Ben's reveal of the Red Sox winning the World Series? Are they in the relative future? Or the relative past? And if in the relative past, then how does Ben have access to information about the future--unless they can somehow see into it. I think I'm beginning to develop a headache. BEN: Your flight crashed on September 22nd, 2004 . Today is November 29th. That means you've been on our island for 69 days. (why include the year for the crash but not for the present date?) Yes, we do have contact with the outside world, Jack. That's how we know that during those 69 days your fellow Americans re-elected George W. Bush; Christopher Reeve has passed away; the Boston Red Sox won the World Series. [Jack starts laughing] What? The 3 events might have been thought unlikely to happen. The Red Sox because of 'The Curse'. Christopher because of having been 'Superman' or because of his miraculous recovery process. (Hurley , Sarah) The first would have to happen in the fall, the second could be any time.
The Presidential election could have been to Jack 2004 or 1992 because people in general don't pay attention to presidential middle names and there was no picture. Its far out but possible

If they ended up on an island moving towards Africa it would go far to expalin the finding of Eko's brother and the crashed plane. We have always wondered how that plane would have ended up in the south Pacific.

What about.... a Time Bubble?

Now I have to be honest here; and say I've never heard of such a thing - but the two words have popped into my head together and I think they might at least be worth a Google.

*pops! off*
That's sort of what I'm talking about, but I can't explain it well enough. Plus my link only deals with the geometry of tesseracts.
In theory a tesseract involving time is like a window curtain.
Normally we travel in time along the surface of the material (picture an ant walking from one side of the curtain to the other).
The tesseract is like the folds and pleats of the curtain. Where the folds touch it is possible for the ant to walk from one fold to another, skipping many inches of material.
My thought is that the Island is "between the folds". Outside of the normal flow.

Does that make sense to anyone? ( besides me!:rolleyes: ;) )

eta: the geometry of tesseracts could also explain how planes from different areas could end up on the Island.

I still say what I said at the beginning - they were flying in a different direction.

Interesting. That might also explain how a Beechcraft from Nigeria ended up on the island. No way it could make it all the way to the pacific, where we/the most of us assume the island is.

Oops... I now see Wanders posted the same thing... http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1358498&postcount=67

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-9676.html

another interesting link about time and related theories:smile:

The Beechcraft?

My money has always been on electronic fog.

The remarkable thing is that we did not come out of the storm 90 miles away from Miami as we should have. . . .We had traveled through 100 miles of space and 30 minutes of time in a little more than three minutes.

http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/bruce_gernon.html

Bruce Gernon (who I've seen interviewd on TV) is of the opinion that what happened to him was a natural weather phenomenom, just one we don't understand yet.

((happy birthday richardstone))

I'm still taking Greggs comment to mean we will be given another piece of the puzzle soon.

There is one other element that no one has taken into consideration yet, and I'm certainly not going to tell you what it is. Good luck figuring out what it is.

(And I think it's a strong possibility there's a big piece of evidence we don't have yet.)

From the Pilot Episode:

PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.

One thing about this statement by the pilot strikes me as inconsistent. If the radio went out - no one would be able to hear them. The plane should still be able to be seen on radar. Airliners are not tracked via their radios. It doesn't make sense.

Also, wonder if the '6 hours in' was a slip-up by the pilot - maybe they were only two hours in the air, but he was 6 hours into his 'mission'. Maybe he was killed because he slipped up.

Although, I tend to agree with CR - there's a strong possibility that there is a big piece of evidence we don't have yet.

Happy Birthday Richardstone !!! :)

I have often wondered if the Pilot was telling them what he was told to say. He wants them to believe that they are lost, they are without hope of being found. That sets the anticipation level higher and makes our LOSTIES just that much more on edge... I tend to agree with Punky that planes are tracked by radar, no radio communications, so unless they dropped below radar contact range, someone saw them up to the time they either exploded, or "fell" out of the sky...

From the Pilot Episode:
One thing about this statement by the pilot strikes me as inconsistent. If the radio went out - no one would be able to hear them. The plane should still be able to be seen on radar. Airliners are not tracked via their radios. It doesn't make sense.


I agree the pilot might be lying, or might be plain wrong. However, it is possible the plane wasn't tracked on the radar, at least not by civilian stations. Large parts of the pacific (and other vast stretches of wate?) aren't covered by radar - the way how planes are tracked.

You're right about the radio - being visible on radar has nothing to do with the radio - else Stealth-technology would be rather low-tech

please ignore the smile in the subject

lost like black box satellite tracking...

One thing about this statement by the pilot strikes me as inconsistent. If the radio went out - no one would be able to hear them. The plane should still be able to be seen on radar. Airliners are not tracked via their radios. It doesn't make sense.
Hey Punky...just a thought, but I always interpreted that statement to mean that both the radio and the radar failed. In the story, he meant "the radio went out...we weren't showing up on radar", or "the radio went out...the radar stopped working". So maybe just before the radio stopped working, he received word that they weren't showing up on radar anymore?.

I don't know what range radar has...but 6 hours in, would they be expected to be in range of an airport (whose radar would be picking them up)?

I just had a wild thought...maybe the pilot was in contact with the pilot of another plane! And they dropped off that plane's radar...

It would fit the twin theme:biggrin:..2 planes...one crashed...one landed (on The Island? in LA?)...?:eek2: :confused: Maybe flight815 was being escorted by another plane...

But IMHO, the writers deliberately worded that dialogue in such a way to make it "non-definitive".;)

Here's Gregg's response (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=52940&highlight=hour) about the 2-6 hour inconsistency:

The plane in the air... Hmmm... Now let's see -- Ana Lucia had a couple of drinks at the bar before she got on a plane, and who knows how many she had once on the plane. She had just been through an intense emotional journey and was probably exhausted. I would venture that Ana Lucia is not the character to fully trust on the time bit. I know she's a cop and all, but I think she was over generalizing to make a point when she said the two hour thing. Personally, I'd stick with the pilot's estimates.

So we're supposed to trust the pilot, and not Ana. Of course, Cindy backs up Ana's estimate, but we all know she's suspect.

That's sort of what I'm talking about, but I can't explain it well enough. Plus my link only deals with the geometry of tesseracts.
In theory a tesseract involving time is like a window curtain.
Normally we travel in time along the surface of the material (picture an ant walking from one side of the curtain to the other).
The tesseract is like the folds and pleats of the curtain. Where the folds touch it is possible for the ant to walk from one fold to another, skipping many inches of material.
My thought is that the Island is "between the folds". Outside of the normal flow.

Does that make sense to anyone? ( besides me!:rolleyes: ;) )

eta: the geometry of tesseracts could also explain how planes from different areas could end up on the Island.

Makes sense to me - the folds thing, because it puts me in mind of an animated wave I saw once; it was probably actually waves of waves - but the point being, that while the peaks and troughs were a consistant size, the interval between them could either scrunch (lovely scientific word that lol) up close - like your peak stepping ant would find useful - or s-t-r-e-t-c-h away from one another.

If you were on one of these waves... what would your perspective of your imediate vicinity be?

Me and my Other argue the whole 'one twin sets off in a space capsule' thing over and over; he insists one can travel to a place wher time slows down; returning to find his brother has aged while he has not.

I say: make them pregnant sisters then... and insist biological time is the constant and they'd deliver simultaneously...

But, I've taken a directional detour of my own from this threads original heading, and I haven't read half the links here :blushing: so I'll leave you with some confusing links on wave motion (the second one with the spheres rolling over and over in the waves has me thinking) http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html
http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es1604/es1604page01.cfm?chapter_no=visualization and set my mind to the original question.

Or not. I may settle for a spot of twiddling my hair round a finger and looking at pictures of kittens. :biggrin: Happy Birthday Richardstone!

the thing about waves is they have n effect on each other right so it wouldnt be very hard to find where one wave or pocket ... actual terminology trough is as in it wouldnt be invisible and it wouldnt always be a trough it would change to a crest...

also didnt cindy say they travelled two hours in the wrong direction..

But Charlie wrote LATE on his hand...how is it that they could have been late?
Perhaps as in "the late Dent, Arthur Dent".

:blowup: My head just blew up...

To quote Lewis Black, "Something is askeeewwwww." What is it we're missing? Of course, if it's some unknown variable that's going to blow our minds, the possibilities are endless. My need to swear is overwhelming.

Looking at it from one other angle, take into consideration the opening montage from TO2C. Granted, we're given little pieces of Juliet's day that go toward establishing this woman's existence on what turns out to be a nearby island community, NOT the real world. But what kind of time-line are we looking at?

It appears that the first shot is when Juliet is just out of bed. A sort of start-the-day-wipe-the-sleep-out-of-your-eyes moment. (OK, that's an assumption and doesn't lend any credence to it actually being morning, she could have been working a late shift and slept in:rolleyes: ) She chooses a certain CD case and plays the CD inside which we now know is not the one that belonged in that case. Music brings certain emotions and continues playing.

In the next shot she is dressed and is busy with book club preparations and burning her hand on the muffins she mixed up and baked. There's a knock at the door, and as she answers it the song is still playing in her house. Maybe she set it to repeat, and,I suppose that could just be for our benefit to keep mood/scene continuity seemless.

Doesn't the book club meet shortly thereafter? That's why the woman turned up with a book in her hand, I'm assuming. (BTW, does there appear to be any wrapping on Juliet's burnt hand at the time the book club gets underway?) Of course it's while the book club is in session that the Island rumbles and the plane comes into view, breaking apart. From the way they shield their eyes to look up at the airplane, I would guess the sun is quite high in the sky at the time. If that matters.

I dunno. Seems like it might still be morning. Yes, you could serve muffins and coffee at an afternoon book club, I suppose, but it sure seems like morning, island time, rather than late afternoon. Maybe Otherville Standard Time differs from Craphole Standard Time.:huh: Maybe it can be whatever time they want it to be, which means none of our calculations matter anyway.
sigh

The whole issue I have is "4:16 island time." The problem with the writers specifying it's "island time" is they can arbitrarily set the island time to whenever they want.

Maybe the island is using time from another country or part of the world instead of the actual time from the time zone it's in. Sort of like when you don't change your clock during the spring/ fall time change.

I think the faster plane approach is too silly (no disrespect intended). Could you imagine if the writers came out and said that time was fine it's just they were on a really fast plane. That's a band-aid explanation to clean up sloppy a story.

I tend to agree with Nations on one thing. At face value, we should take the pilots word over the cops word. The pilot was flying the plane, watching the instruments paying attention to the details required to fly a plane. Who knows if Ana Lucia fell asleep, daydreamed or otherwise lost track of time. The only thing that now comes into play is can we believe the pilot? Is he telling the losties the truth or is he lying?

I'm staying out of the discussion of worm holes, time warps and that stuff because it's hard to theorize about this stuff when one of the variables is "they flew into a worm hole and came out 20 years later."

yet its definitely 4:16 island time ... curse you gregg nations, curse you jk

One thing about this statement by the pilot strikes me as inconsistent. If the radio went out - no one would be able to hear them. The plane should still be able to be seen on radar. Airliners are not tracked via their radios. It doesn't make sense.

Is that true? If the plane was enough off-course, or flying too low, wouldn't they potentially be out of range of the nearest radar tower? I don't think there's blanket radar coverage of the entire Pacific, but I could be wrong. Of course, the Pilot's statement would still seem to depend on his knowing that they were in an area/situation where radar wouldn't pick them up.

I think Gregg's being honest when he says it's a mess; to some degree, they may have written themselves into a corner on this one and they probably can't totally resolve the inconsistencies. That's probably why he was having the debate with the writers. To me, the flashbacks are all consistent with passengers who have only recently settled in for a long flight -- Jack's had time for one drink, everyone's still awake, it's still light, etc. (remember, flying east from Syndey during September, which is the southern hemisphere's winter, you're not going to have much daylight past 6pm or so). That is, the two-hour story seems to "fit" with the flashbacks -- although not perfectly with the apparent time of the crash on the ground, unless they stayed in the Sydney time zone. You simply can't account for 6 hours of flight going east at that time of year.

So, the question to me boils down to how to explain the pilot saying it was a 6 hour flight and Cindy repeating that story, when everything else points to a short flight and crash? And why would the Tailies not question Cindy's story, and Jack/Kate not question the Pilot's story? That's what the "other element" Gregg's talking about has to resolve, IMO.

I'm in the camp that thinks Gregg's statements mean two things: (1) we're going to get another piece of the Flight 815 puzzle before long (perhaps as a direct result of his "debate" with the writers!); and (2) to the extent the discrepancies are resolved by something that happened in-flight, they are likely to be explained by something mundane rather than sci-fi.

I can come up with rational reasons for why the pilot and Cindy might lie. But I can't come up with a reason why these accounts wouldn't have been questioned.

Is it possible we should be focusing on who heard these statements by the Pilot and Cindy, and wondering why they didn't challenge them? As fodder, here are the exchanges:

Pilot:

PILOT: How many survived?
JACK: At least 48. Does anything feel broken?
PILOT: No. My head's a little dizzy, that's all.
JACK: It's probably a concussion.
PILOT: How long has it been?
JACK: 16 hours.
PILOT: 16 hours? Has anybody come?
JACK: Not yet.
PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.

48 Days:

ANA: We need to get off the beach. We need to find a safer place.
NATHAN: We've got kids and people that are seriously hurt. Where are we going to go? How are we going to move them? And what about the signal fire? How are we going to get rescued if we're off the beach?
GOODWIN: Nathan's right.
ANA: They have satellites -- the black box -- we don't need a fire for them to find us.
CINDY: Yes, we do. Before the crash, the pilot said we'd lost communication; we were turning back. We were flying for two hours in the wrong direction. They don't know where to look.

yet its definitely 4:16 island time ... curse you gregg nations, curse you jk
And they just had to choose the two numbers that bookend 8 and 15. Wait, could that be FLIGHT 815??? So, maybe the airplane (815) is lost in time (416)???:rotflmao2:

You've got the right idea gus, and Gregg should start wearing a garlic necklace. He knows not what he does when he toys with us in such a cavalier manner.:shifty:

Pilot:

PILOT: How many survived?
JACK: At least 48. Does anything feel broken?
PILOT: No. My head's a little dizzy, that's all.
JACK: It's probably a concussion.
PILOT: How long has it been?
JACK: 16 hours.
PILOT: 16 hours? Has anybody come?
JACK: Not yet.
PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.

48 Days:

ANA: We need to get off the beach. We need to find a safer place.
NATHAN: We've got kids and people that are seriously hurt. Where are we going to go? How are we going to move them? And what about the signal fire? How are we going to get rescued if we're off the beach?
GOODWIN: Nathan's right.
ANA: They have satellites -- the black box -- we don't need a fire for them to find us.
CINDY: Yes, we do. Before the crash, the pilot said we'd lost communication; we were turning back. We were flying for two hours in the wrong direction. They don't know where to look.


okay so looking at this all together if they both were telling the truth .... it was six hours into the flight that they lost communication and then they flew off course for 1000 miles which took another elapse of time which cindy says is two hours which is consistent for a 500 miles an hour flight to be 1000 miles off course that equals eight hours in the air which is alot...and would definitely be night time unless of course they left in the morning as opposed to later in the day ... a mess is right

yet its definitely 4:16 island time ... curse you gregg nations, curse you jk

I'm on the fence about that. On the one hand, yes, he may be implying that "island time" is somehow in a category unto itself. But OTOH, think about the most common way to refer to differences in time zones: (i.e. "You can't call him now -- it's 2 am London time," "The show's going to air at 9 pm Central time," "I'm still not over the jet lag-- it's only 5 am California time," "The shuttle takes off at 1 pm Greenwich Mean Time," etc.) There's no other way to refer to it without giving away the name or location of the island.

Still, there's something going on. The question I keep asking is, why is this important? What makes it central to the story? What would make it such a big deal? Is there a chunk of missing time? Are they in the future? I can't think of what it could be.

There is another explanation, wierd, but possible. We're talking of two different plane crashes. Could be the same plane, two different moments in time. Or two entirely different planes, at different times.

I'm afraid I can't explain this in a technical way and to be honest I'm not sure if it would work at all...

But what if, very early on in the flight they were already over the island going in circles, then they would only think that they were 1000 miles off course when in fact they had not gone anywhere, or at least not far enough for it to be dark when they crashed.

Basically the same thing that happened to Desmond, but in the air.

I'm sure there are more than a few reasons that won't work but I feel compelled to suggest it anyway, I could certainly suspend my disbelief enough to accept a scenario like that.

Still, there's something going on. The question I keep asking is, why is this important? What makes it central to the story? What would make it such a big deal? Is there a chunk of missing time? Are they in the future? I can't think of what it could be.

Is the sun their light source?

I guess it's important in that we want the central time-line to be accurate, and I think it's important to a lot of us that TPTB weren't being careless with something that feels like it should be written in stone. If there's a discrepancy, and it sure as heck seems that there is, I would like it to be due to some sort of anomaly or some other factor we haven't considered. But that's just my opinion.

I'm afraid I can't explain this in a technical way and to be honest I'm not sure if it would work at all...

But what if, very early on in the flight they were already over the island going in circles, then they would only think that they were 1000 miles off course when in fact they had not gone anywhere, or at least not far enough for it to be dark when they crashed.

Basically the same thing that happened to Desmond, but in the air.

I'm sure there are more than a few reasons that won't work but I feel compelled to suggest it anyway, I could certainly suspend my disbelief enough to accept a scenario like that.

granted, but it still puts them in the air for up to eight hours

Doesn't air traffic control radar depend on radio and other beacon devices on commercial airliners? If that's true, then they could have disappeared if their communications system failed. I know it's used for navigation but I don't know for ATC tracking.

i think this could all tie in with the whole time thing and the 'jump the shark' moment.

i would propose a couple of far fetched ideas ( although no more far fetched than a column of smoke chucking a hefty guy about like a rag doll because he refused to repent :) )

if the plane traveled really fast, approaching the speed of light, then according to the theory of relativity time would slow down for them.

also i think the 'vortex' theory is a possibility. the idea that the plane was transported to the island 's airspace instantaneously from somewhere else - maybe even traveling in time in the process
that could also explain the drug plane that not only left from nigeria, but still had maps of nigeria open in the cockpit.

whatever the button controls obviously has huge power and the time thing has been hinted at by danielle's deleted scene, the comicon comment, desmond's nakedness after he turned the failsafe, and that really old music (glen miller?) sayid picked up on the short wave radio. if you think about it, that about the only off island input that we have reliably witnessed.

Hey Punky...just a thought, but I always interpreted that statement to mean that both the radio and the radar failed. In the story, he meant "the radio went out...we weren't showing up on radar", or "the radio went out...the radar stopped working". So maybe just before the radio stopped working, he received word that they weren't showing up on radar anymore?

Tabby - yes, that's how I always interpreted that line. It kind of implied that the radar was out - or maybe we did.

I only point it out as Gregg says there is an element we have not taken into consideration - and the radio being out would not have anything to do with the plane not being seen.

But how does that fit into the time element? Dunno..

But, two different people coming up with two different time references - reminds me of the Circumnavigator's Paradox (http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm#The%20circumnavigator's%20paradox).

described how a traveller, depending on his direction of travel, would either lose or gain a day at the completion of his circumnavigation.

But, since they were all going in the same direction, it wouldn't apply here.

I'm going to stick with Gregg's thought that the Pilot's perspective of 6 hours is the way to go... until they straighten out the 'mess'. :biggrin:

but once again was it not six hours until they lost communications and then they kept flying for (provided by cindy) two hours

(taking a short break on the in-depth analysis for a quick grin)

I probably shouldn’t comment but I just think it’s kind of funny: Gregg admits the time thing is a mess and then goes on to say there is 1 other element contributing to the mess that no one has taken into consideration, yet. He threw down the gauntlet…

…and the great brains of this board (from the way I’m reading it anyway) in less than 24 hours have come up with not 1 but 3 more possible contributing factors.

1. The radio went out, not the radar. The plane should have been tracked to a point near the crash.

2. It’s not possible to be 1000 miles off course in 2 hours.

3. No matter how you try to look at the situation, there is no ordinary explanation for why it was daylight on the island at the time of the crash.

From my point of view, these are all valid contributing factors to “the mess“ --and if none of these are the one element Gregg is thinking about that means Gregg has come up with another, which would make 4 contributing factors. The point here, I guess, is I think it’s kind of funny that if Gregg ever finds this thread, he’s going to find more of a mess than he originally considered. :eek:)

(Ok, back to the in-depth analysis ;) )


Has anyone looked that the pilot’s statement about Fiji?
If the plane was on course for 6 hours before it ran into trouble, would Fiji be the closest place to turn? After 6 hours into a 12.5 hour flight, wouldn’t Hawaii be the closest safe haven?
I’m sure this has probably already been discussed somewhere but I just wanted to add it in as a possibility in this conversation.

1. The radio went out, not the radar. The plane should have been tracked to a point near the crash.

One question I have, would the radio going out mean the plane was essentially invisible?

Doesn't the plane transmit it's location rather than being tracked on the Air Traffic Control end?

:confused:

Boy, I'm not sure. I guess we need an expert on the subject. :shrug:




BTW - Happy Birthday! Hope it's a great one!!!

But, I believe this is the first time anyone brought up Eco's book!

I've brought up Island of the Day Before a couple of times. It's an incredibly dense and complex book, not easily summarized. Many who liked Eco's other books gave up on this one.
There are several parallels between it and the Lost story. Desmond imo is the character most like Roberto, the protagonist. His background, relationship with Penny, his letters to her, his being stranded and confined (Desmond in the hatch by the 'quarantine', Roberto on his ship because he can't swim). The novel also has an evil twin, an imaginary friend/antagonist, and a mysterious priest.

I wouldn't say the book provides any clues or helps predict anything in the show. The Lost writers may be drawing from the same well as the book but they're not copycatting it.

Some of us have long theorized the island is on the IDL. I like to think, that like Roberto, the Losties are ~ at least metaphorically~ stuck between yesterday and today (or today and tomorrow, or yesterday and tomorrow :)).

This is somewhat related, so I'll add it here.

Jack says: "Of course, this breaks some critical FAA regulations."

This comments seems to just be part of Jack's flirting. But if taken as a clue, it could be a significant one.

First, as far as I know, FAA regulations only apply in American airspace.

Second, is there actually a critical violation taking place?

(Trying to catch up!)
I remember thinking, way back when people were plotting the flight on maps, they were plotting with lines, flight occurs in curvatures.
...anyway, I do believe we have to take spheres into the equation somehow...not sure how at this point.

I've read all the posts, but they keep appearing faster than I can read them!

Nothing speculated here really hits the spot for me... mostly because I am telling myself the reasons it can't be a theory while I'm reading it.

A couple of ideas to keep in mind:

Remember the Sun: since we are seeing days and nights pass by, we can rule out an island location in the polar circles, unless as we approach the December solstice we will have one continuous day (or night) in the southern hemispheree (or nothern)

Desmond time vs. Jack time: Desmond and Jack met pre-island, and on island. There may be a "one-time" time effect while entering the island, so that each went through the same transformation. There cannot be a (significant) cumulative effect, or Jack time wouldn't equal (even remotely, considering Desmond spent 3 years on the island before Jack) Desmond-time.

Also: Happy Birthday RichardStone! It's my Birthday, too, yah!

Another incredible, thought-provoking thread -- great job CR! Just wanted to throw one further time wrinkle (ha, ha) into the mix. Ben ordered Ethan and Goodwin to make lists in "three days." We also know that Ethan kidnapped Claire prior to making his list.

Here's the problem: According to the lostpedia timeline (http://en.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:October_2004), Claire wasn't kidnapped until day 15. Why weren't the Others more phased by Ethan's failure to make a list in "three days"?

To quote Lewis Black, "Something is askeeewwwww." What is it we're missing? Of course, if it's some unknown variable that's going to blow our minds, the possibilities are endless. My need to swear is overwhelming.

Looking at it from one other angle, take into consideration the opening montage from TO2C. Granted, we're given little pieces of Juliet's day that go toward establishing this woman's existence on what turns out to be a nearby island community, NOT the real world. But what kind of time-line are we looking at?

It appears that the first shot is when Juliet is just out of bed. A sort of start-the-day-wipe-the-sleep-out-of-your-eyes moment. (OK, that's an assumption and doesn't lend any credence to it actually being morning, she could have been working a late shift and slept in:rolleyes: ) She chooses a certain CD case and plays the CD inside which we now know is not the one that belonged in that case. Music brings certain emotions and continues playing.

In the next shot she is dressed and is busy with book club preparations and burning her hand on the muffins she mixed up and baked. There's a knock at the door, and as she answers it the song is still playing in her house. Maybe she set it to repeat, and,I suppose that could just be for our benefit to keep mood/scene continuity seemless.
Yes, I think it was TV convention -- and it parallels the opening of season 2, about which the same objection was raised. The convention is that music can bridge a gap between our world and that of the characters. The picture can cut while the music doesn't, even though it would have to to stay parallel, considering that the music originated in the character's world.

Robert

Also: Happy Birthday RichardStone! It's my Birthday, too, yah!

I'm glad it's your Birthday, Happy Birthday to you!

:biggrin:

maybe times moving in a completely different direction opposite to that of the outside world? i dont know greggs messing with my mind.:67hissy:

I've read all the posts, but they keep appearing faster than I can read them!

Nothing speculated here really hits the spot for me... mostly because I am telling myself the reasons it can't be a theory while I'm reading it.

A couple of ideas to keep in mind:

Remember the Sun: since we are seeing days and nights pass by, we can rule out an island location in the polar circles, unless as we approach the December solstice we will have one continuous day (or night) in the southern hemispheree (or nothern)

Desmond time vs. Jack time: Desmond and Jack met pre-island, and on island. There may be a "one-time" time effect while entering the island, so that each went through the same transformation. There cannot be a (significant) cumulative effect, or Jack time wouldn't equal (even remotely, considering Desmond spent 3 years on the island before Jack) Desmond-time.

Also: Happy Birthday RichardStone! It's my Birthday, too, yah!

Happy Birthday RichardStone!
Happy Birthday Klalkis!

In reference to Desmond and Jack and their having met off island, presumedly before the island crash if time isn't messed up too bad, ha! Remember Jack telling Locke when they were watching the Orientation film that he had met Desmond...and Locke says that was impossible? I still don't understand why Jack didn't question his statement...and why there wasn't more discussion here about it...

Is it possible we should be focusing on who heard these statements by the Pilot and Cindy, and wondering why they didn't challenge them? As fodder, here are the exchanges:

Pilot:

PILOT: How many survived?
JACK: At least 48. Does anything feel broken?
PILOT: No. My head's a little dizzy, that's all.
JACK: It's probably a concussion.
PILOT: How long has it been?
JACK: 16 hours.
PILOT: 16 hours? Has anybody come?
JACK: Not yet.
PILOT: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.

48 Days:

ANA: We need to get off the beach. We need to find a safer place.
NATHAN: We've got kids and people that are seriously hurt. Where are we going to go? How are we going to move them? And what about the signal fire? How are we going to get rescued if we're off the beach?
GOODWIN: Nathan's right.
ANA: They have satellites -- the black box -- we don't need a fire for them to find us.
CINDY: Yes, we do. Before the crash, the pilot said we'd lost communication; we were turning back. We were flying for two hours in the wrong direction. They don't know where to look.

Re-reading these exchanges, some things (slight OT) really jumped out at me. First, the pilot asks, "16 hours? Has anybody come?" Seconds later, he tells Jack that of course no one is coming, they're 1000 miles off-course, they're looking for them in the wrong place. Why would he be wondering if someone had come for them, and in the same breath explain why no one is coming? I believe that when he asks if anybody has come, he is talking about the others/dharma/someone already on the Island.

The other thing that struck me was that Cindy and the Pilot's explanations for why no one will be able to find them sound scripted. They are both emphatic in the way they state that no one knows where to find them. But, surely it's possible that an investigator tracking this mysterious, disappearing plane could plot their course until they disappeared from communications, and then figure out the most plausible route to whichever Island makes the most sense for an emergency landing? With this information, they could send rescue missions over various potential flight paths to search for the wreckage.

I realize I didn't address the puzzle Nations layed out for us, but thought maybe it could be useful to reexamine these ideas in the context of this thread.

Re-reading these exchanges, some things (slight OT) really jumped out at me. First, the pilot asks, "16 hours? Has anybody come?" Seconds later, he tells Jack that of course no one is coming, they're 1000 miles off-course, they're looking for them in the wrong place. Why would he be wondering if someone had come for them, and in the same breath explain why no one is coming? I believe that when he asks if anybody has come, he is talking about the others/dharma/someone already on the Island.

The other thing that struck me was that Cindy and the Pilot's explanations for why no one will be able to find them sound scripted. They are both emphatic in the way they state that no one knows where to find them. But, surely it's possible that an investigator tracking this mysterious, disappearing plane could plot their course until they disappeared from communications, and then figure out the most plausible route to whichever Island makes the most sense for an emergency landing? With this information, they could send rescue missions over various potential flight paths to search for the wreckage.

I realize I didn't address the puzzle Nations layed out for us, but thought maybe it could be useful to reexamine these ideas in the context of this thread.

generally rescues happen not long after the actual crashes ... the pilot seemed to initially hold out hope that even though they lost communications someone may have been aware of them but sixteen hours later it would be apparent that having not been contacted by anybody that they truly are lost.

the other is a lot of guess work and assumptions

Also, it may be reasonable that when the pilot first gains consciousness he will be a bit disorientated and of course he would hope that they are saved. That is if he's just an innocent guy flying a plane :eek2:

Also, it may be reasonable that when the pilot first gains consciousness he will be a bit disorientated and of course he would hope that they are saved. That is if he's just an innocent guy flying a plane :eek2:

hurley checking if the marshall is awake "hey look a boat we're saved."

My suggestion is that they flew East not West.
Luc: Just like Magnus Hanso. Hmmm...

To quote Lewis Black, "Something is askeeewwwww." What is it we're missing? Of course, if it's some unknown variable that's going to blow our minds, the possibilities are endless. My need to swear is overwhelming.

Looking at it from one other angle, take into consideration the opening montage from TO2C. Granted, we're given little pieces of Juliet's day that go toward establishing this woman's existence on what turns out to be a nearby island community, NOT the real world. But what kind of time-line are we looking at?

It appears that the first shot is when Juliet is just out of bed. A sort of start-the-day-wipe-the-sleep-out-of-your-eyes moment. (OK, that's an assumption and doesn't lend any credence to it actually being morning, she could have been working a late shift and slept in:rolleyes: ) She chooses a certain CD case and plays the CD inside which we now know is not the one that belonged in that case. Music brings certain emotions and continues playing.

In the next shot she is dressed and is busy with book club preparations and burning her hand on the muffins she mixed up and baked. There's a knock at the door, and as she answers it the song is still playing in her house. Maybe she set it to repeat, and,I suppose that could just be for our benefit to keep mood/scene continuity seemless.

Doesn't the book club meet shortly thereafter? That's why the woman turned up with a book in her hand, I'm assuming. (BTW, does there appear to be any wrapping on Juliet's burnt hand at the time the book club gets underway?) Of course it's while the book club is in session that the Island rumbles and the plane comes into view, breaking apart. From the way they shield their eyes to look up at the airplane, I would guess the sun is quite high in the sky at the time. If that matters.

I dunno. Seems like it might still be morning. Yes, you could serve muffins and coffee at an afternoon book club, I suppose, but it sure seems like morning, island time, rather than late afternoon. Maybe Otherville Standard Time differs from Craphole Standard Time.:huh: Maybe it can be whatever time they want it to be, which means none of our calculations matter anyway.
sigh

Will have to rewatch that sequence again, I did assume that an indiscriminate amount of time had passed, but maybe it did encompass only the morning.

I'm afraid I can't explain this in a technical way and to be honest I'm not sure if it would work at all...

But what if, very early on in the flight they were already over the island going in circles, then they would only think that they were 1000 miles off course when in fact they had not gone anywhere, or at least not far enough for it to be dark when they crashed.

Basically the same thing that happened to Desmond, but in the air.

I'm sure there are more than a few reasons that won't work but I feel compelled to suggest it anyway, I could certainly suspend my disbelief enough to accept a scenario like that.

Well the radio did go out at some point and they continued to fly afterwards for 2 hours, did the radio actually go out when they approached the island and at that point they just kept circling the island until they crashed? It still doesn't completely explain the daylight and 4:16pm, but it's a possibility since we didn't know about the navigation and circling probelms with the island until more recently.

And Gregg if you are reading this thread, I imagine you are chuckling to yourself thinking how we still haven't found that missing element! :D

East and not West is the best!

ETA: chelle im going to watch TO2C and look for the burned hand during the book club session.

:biggrin: :biggrin: Gregg goes and starts this all over again.

I brought up the sunset in February of 2005

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=129581&postcount=35

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=486522&postcount=116 Some of the old research
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=938039&postcount=30

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=45708&highlight=sunset

I'm going to stick with Gregg's thought that the Pilot's perspective of 6 hours is the way to go... until they straighten out the 'mess'. :biggrin:

That's my persepective as well. It's kind of like the advice Javi gave us for determining how reliable information is, or whether it is "canon." The further you get from the source of the information, the less reliable it is. Therefore, the pilot is the most reliable source as far as we know. Cindy would have gotten her information second or third hand. The futher away you get from the pilot, the more likely information has been changed ie., minimized to reduce anxiety of the passengers, or altered by someone with an agenda imho.

Some of us have long theorized the island is on the IDL. I like to think, that like Roberto, the Losties are ~ at least metaphorically~ stuck between yesterday and today (or today and tomorrow, or yesterday and tomorrow :)).

Wow Mio I love this theory - really ticks my brain! That would explain so much!!!

The explanations we are eventually given turn out to be a lot more grounded in reality than some of the speculation here. Remember the preview when Ben showed Sawyer the main island, but we didn't get to see what it was? And all the speculation about worm holes and reality vortices?

We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course.Here's bit that makes it messier: Fiji lies directly on the great circle line from Sydney to Los Angeles. Turning back wouldn't take them off course. In fact, it's almost exactly 2000 miles from Sydney, so at 500 miles per hour, after two hours they'd be right over Fiji.

generally rescues happen not long after the actual crashes ... the pilot seemed to initially hold out hope that even though they lost communications someone may have been aware of them but sixteen hours later it would be apparent that having not been contacted by anybody that they truly are lost.

the other is a lot of guess work and assumptions

I agree, I think you're right about the pilot being generally disoriented. In fact, it's somewhat amazing that he was as coherent as he was, all things considered.

As to the second part of my post, yes, it is a lot of guesswork and assumptions. I'm not trying to lay down a concrete theory; rather, I think it is important to consider the fact that neither the pilot, nor Cindy, left open the possibility of rescue, even as an idea to inspire hope (granted, the Pilot didn't have much time to consider such things). If the Island really were just another island in the pacific, I think the possibility of rescue definitely would have existed. Imagine if a plane really did disappear into thin air somewhere over the pacific. Based on the passengers of 815, the American and Australian governments (and the real-life counterpart of Oceanic Airlines) would be turning over Heaven and Earth to find out what happened to the plane. For all we know, this could be happening in the Lost world. I just think it's significant that neither the pilot nor Cindy thought it was possible. This isn't proof of anything, but I think it points to something happening that we're not aware of, like the time issues.

Anyways, I'm sure these things have been thought over and discussed several times in the past. I just think the answer to the time issue will also involve some of the other mysteries associated with the flight.

Wow Mio I love this theory - really ticks my brain! That would explain so much!!!
annie m: It's a classic. Here's (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7474) one of my all time favorite takes on the subject by a poster named clayseason -- make sure you read the expanded version, too.

Yes, I think it was TV convention -- and it parallels the opening of season 2, about which the same objection was raised. The convention is that music can bridge a gap between our world and that of the characters. The picture can cut while the music doesn't, even though it would have to to stay parallel, considering that the music originated in the character's world.

Robert
Yes, that's understood. I'm sure they were thrilled with the reaction to the opening sequence of Season 2, and what better way to introduce yet another place in the world of LOST? That being said, my main point is that it looks and feels earlier than 4:16 p.m. in Otherville.

They also suggested it was morning when we met Desmond, through their choice of food and activities, not to mention we see him waking up to start his day. But his "morning" could have been any time at all due to the fact that he had an artificial light source.

We're out in the open in this sequence, so it's easier to establish some kind of time-line. But I do realize that none of this matters when the point is that it should be dark.

I just wanted to point out the possibility that Gregg's crash time and the time in Otherville when they see the plane break apart may not match. Maybe they do, I don't know. My head hurts. I'm just wacky enough to think that the concept of time on the Island may be a bit different from the norm, and that could be due to the anomaly or any number of cool reasons.

Also, I wanted to look at the equation backwards, not concerning myself with the time they left, how many hours they'd flown or which direction they were heading. That's all.

That being said, the only way it would have been that light (at all) after six hours is if they were heading in the opposite direction. In fact, it should have been --at the very least-- gradually getting dark as the flight continued on, but it never did. If it had, wouldn't someone have said, "Hey, wasn't it getting dark a couple of hours ago?"

The deception had to have occurred before take off. The idea that no one noticed the direction they were heading, or the fact that it wasn't getting a bit dusky at 8:00 in the evening...that's a real stretch of the imagination when people like Sayid were on board. People on flights DO look out the window and have some sense of direction, after all. Right? Assuming the sun is where it's supposed to be. The deception had to have occurred before take off. And I hope it did. I don't want this to be something that was over-looked by TPTB. It feels way too important.

The sun was high in Otherville, wherever that is. Or isn't.

Remember the Sun: since we are seeing days and nights pass by, we can rule out an island location in the polar circles, unless as we approach the December solstice we will have one continuous day (or night) in the southern hemispheree (or nothern)

The sun rises September 22nd over the South Pole. The Antartic circle at the same time has 12 hours of sunlight and 12 hours of darkness, then for the next 6 months sunlight 24 hours a day. The North Pole is the opposite, it has six months of darkness. Antartica or the Indian ocean is the only place on Earth they can be at 4:16 pm Sept 22nd 2004 if nothing Sci Fi is going on.

The sun rises September 22nd over the South Pole. The Antartic circle at the same time has 12 hours of sunlight and 12 hours of darkness, then for the next 6 months sunlight 24 hours a day. The North Pole is the opposite, it has six months of darkness. Antartica or the Indian ocean is the only place on Earth they can be at 4:16 pm Sept 22nd 2004 if nothing Sci Fi is going on.

are you saying that the rest of the world is in darkness a 4:16 pm Sept. 22nd 2004? because if you are , that is wrong. because the sun doesnt set here in canada until well after 7 pm in september ... I really dont understand what you mean.

are you saying that the rest of the world is in darkness a 4:16 pm Sept. 22nd 2004?

CN is saying that the North Pole is dark on that date.

North Pole: The sun is on the horizon at the North Pole on the September Equinox in the morning. The sun sets at the North Pole at noon on the September Equinox and the North Pole remains dark until the March Equinox.

Link (http://geography.about.com/od/physicalgeography/a/fourseasons.htm) that explains it all.

South Pole: The sun rises at the South Pole after the Pole having been dark for the past six months (since the March Equinox). The sun rises to the horizon and it remains light at the South Pole for six months. Each day, the sun appears to rotate around the South Pole at the same declination angle in the sky.

I understand that but the way CN explains it seems like hes saying the only places on Earth that have light at 4:16 are the indian ocean and antartic but time changes would say no

I understand that but the way CN explains it seems like hes saying the only places on Earth that have light at 4:16 are the indian ocean and antartic but time changes would say no

Gus, no the only place on Earth on that day or any day {Sept 22nd 2004} at 4:16 pm can be is in that time zone which falls in the Indian Ocean and Antartica if you use the Sydney 2:15 pm flight 815 take off time reference. If 815 flys northeast to LA they fly into darkness if they fly southwest to Indian Ocean or Antartica you fly into daylight from Sydney.

depending on the flight times and such, okay I understand that the sun rises in the east and flying east would reduce the time before darkness fall...and flying west would elongate it. This is really quite the conundrum ... yet if island time truly refers to what time it is on the island with relation to time zones then it would be light out at 4:16 the only thing is that that would contradict the normal route and time figures as stated by pilot etc.

then again if you add in something crazy like an artificial sun all hell breaks loose.

I'm afraid I can't explain this in a technical way and to be honest I'm not sure if it would work at all...

But what if, very early on in the flight they were already over the island going in circles, then they would only think that they were 1000 miles off course when in fact they had not gone anywhere, or at least not far enough for it to be dark when they crashed.

Basically the same thing that happened to Desmond, but in the air.

I'm sure there are more than a few reasons that won't work but I feel compelled to suggest it anyway, I could certainly suspend my disbelief enough to accept a scenario like that.You know, I hate to say this, but...if I was on a plane that was very cleverly going in circles, I don't know if I would know the difference. Does this idea mean that the Island is close to where the Losties took off from, Richardstone?

Tabby - yes, that's how I always interpreted that line. It kind of implied that the radar was out - or maybe we did.

I only point it out as Gregg says there is an element we have not taken into consideration - and the radio being out would not have anything to do with the plane not being seen.

I'm going to stick with Gregg's thought that the Pilot's perspective of 6 hours is the way to go... until they straighten out the 'mess'. :biggrin:I don't know anything about airplanes (or very little). Just because the radio is out, well, that doesn't seem like it would mean that the plane couldn't be seen on the radar screen - in real life, anyway. Even if the pilot couldn't talk to the air traffic controllers, it seems like they would have still been able to see the plane...

One question I have, would the radio going out mean the plane was essentially invisible?

Doesn't the plane transmit it's location rather than being tracked on the Air Traffic Control end?

:confused:Ditto. Is there someone out there that knows anything substantial about flying?

This is somewhat related, so I'll add it here.
Jack says: "Of course, this breaks some critical FAA regulations."
This comments seems to just be part of Jack's flirting. But if taken as a clue, it could be a significant one.
First, as far as I know, FAA regulations only apply in American airspace.
Second, is there actually a critical violation taking place?Unless flight 815 just crashed on the Island and that's the end all-be all of the story, something fishy had to have gone on...

Another incredible, thought-provoking thread -- great job CR! Just wanted to throw one further time wrinkle (ha, ha) into the mix. Ben ordered Ethan and Goodwin to make lists in "three days." We also know that Ethan kidnapped Claire prior to making his list.

Here's the problem: According to the lostpedia timeline (http://en.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:October_2004), Claire wasn't kidnapped until day 15. Why weren't the Others more phased by Ethan's failure to make a list in "three days"?Didn't Tom make a comment about this to Ethan in the medical hatch? Rather, what did Tom say to Ethan then? Something about the list not being made and that "He" would be mad...

maybe times moving in a completely different direction opposite to that of the outside world? i dont know greggs messing with my mind.:67hissy:Of course Gregg's messing with everyone's minds! ;) Speaking of time, I always thought that if Island time was different than regular, real-life time, it went by faster. Afterall, when we saw Walt last in terms of the storyline, he looked older and only a few months had past. Now that we know that there are two Islands, I remembered that when the Others kidnapped Walt, they probably brought him back to their Island. He was probably on the Other's Island most of the time that he was gone. He did his aging there. What does this say about how time goes by on the Losties' Island? Does this mean that time on the Losties' Island goes by slower than the Others' Island? How about how each Island's time goes by versus real life time?

Happy Birthday RichardStone!
Happy Birthday Klalkis!

In reference to Desmond and Jack and their having met off island, presumedly before the island crash if time isn't messed up too bad, ha! Remember Jack telling Locke when they were watching the Orientation film that he had met Desmond...and Locke says that was impossible? I still don't understand why Jack didn't question his statement...and why there wasn't more discussion here about it...Yes, happy birthday everyone! I wonder why Locke said that strange comment, Bri. Did he just mean that the coincidence was too high for it to happen (in his mind)? That the chances that someone in the Losties' group would know Desmond would be too small to be a possible reality?

That's my persepective as well. It's kind of like the advice Javi gave us for determining how reliable information is, or whether it is "canon." The further you get from the source of the information, the less reliable it is. Therefore, the pilot is the most reliable source as far as we know. Cindy would have gotten her information second or third hand. The futher away you get from the pilot, the more likely information has been changed ie., minimized to reduce anxiety of the passengers, or altered by someone with an agenda imho.But what if the pilot, aka the "Source", isn't an honest one?

They also suggested it was morning when we met Desmond...That being said, the only way it would have been that light (at all) after six hours is if they were heading in the opposite direction. In fact, it should have been --at the very least-- gradually getting dark as the flight continued on, but it never did. If it had, wouldn't someone have said, "Hey, wasn't it getting dark a couple of hours ago?"

The deception had to have occurred before take off. The idea that no one noticed the direction they were heading, or the fact that it wasn't getting a bit dusky at 8:00 in the evening...that's a real stretch of the imagination when people like Sayid were on board. People on flights DO look out the window and have some sense of direction, after all. Right? Assuming the sun is where it's supposed to be. The deception had to have occurred before take off. And I hope it did. I don't want this to be something that was over-looked by TPTB. It feels way too important.

The sun was high in Otherville, wherever that is. Or isn't.Who knows what time it really was in reality when we saw Desmond get up. I agree with you, Chelle. We were definitely supposed to think that it was morning. However, that being said, it's not like Desmond took days off and slept in. He was getting up pretty frequently thanks to life in the Swan Hatch. Maybe, he had to do the exercise bike to stay awake? I wonder how much time went by between when Desmond woke up and got on the exercise bike and when Kate and Locke entered the hatch? The reason that I ask this question is when we saw Kate and Locke lowering Kate down into the hatch, it was dark out. IMHO, it didn't seem like that much time passed between that timeframe and when Desmond was up and on the bike. If what we saw Desmond do was his "Morning Routine" (despite the fact that he didn't sleep many concurrent hours) and he believed that it was morning, why was it dark outside the hatch?

The hours of the flight and the time of the sunset should give you the location. They can't fly in circles for 8 hours because it would be dark when they crashed.

I have this SUN Clock on the dashboard of my mac

http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/information/sunclock.html I found it when all this started and it's really cool.

Who knows what time it really was in reality when we saw Desmond get up. I agree with you, Chelle. We were definitely supposed to think that it was morning. However, that being said, it's not like Desmond took days off and slept in. He was getting up pretty frequently thanks to life in the Swan Hatch. Maybe, he had to do the exercise bike to stay awake? I wonder how much time went by between when Desmond woke up and got on the exercise bike and when Kate and Locke entered the hatch? The reason that I ask this question is when we saw Kate and Locke lowering Kate down into the hatch, it was dark out. IMHO, it didn't seem like that much time passed between that timeframe and when Desmond was up and on the bike. If what we saw Desmond do was his "Morning Routine" (despite the fact that he didn't sleep many concurrent hours) and he believed that it was morning, why was it dark outside the hatch?
I think it's because they had an artificial light source in the Swan hatch. It shone through the window next to the breakfast nook's booth. And it's off-topic to wonder here about the huge hole in that window...but I think that's where Smokey escaped and/or blasted through...hehehe.

Maybe the artificial light source in the Swan was out of sync with the light source of The Island (which many assume is the Sun, but as _chelle_ asked: "is the sun their light source?")--either due to intentional experimentation/manipulation...or "something else".

I think it's because they had an artificial light source in the Swan hatch. It shone through the window next to the breakfast nook's booth. And it's off-topic to wonder here about the huge hole in that window...but I think that's where Smokey escaped and/or blasted through...hehehe.

Maybe the artificial light source in the Swan was out of sync with the light source of The Island (which many assume is the Sun, but as _chelle_ asked: "is the sun their light source?")--either due to intentional experimentation/manipulation...or "something else".Yes...I guess that I should have been clearer about what I was thinking. I was thinking that the artificial lightsource was tricking Desmond into thinking it was morning when it really wasn't. What the purpose would be for that trick, I don't know. I think that Demond probably figured that he needed something to keep him on track, considering, at the time, he didn't think that he could leave the Swan Hatch and experience the outdoors and natural sunlight anytime soon. I think that he knew that it was artificial, of course, but I don't know if he thought that the timeframe that it represented was wrong...I wonder if the artificial light had it's own day and night schedule? Then again, like you and Chelle suggested, maybe the Island's sun isn't the real sun at all and it's off in terms of when it's day and night in the real world, too...

Gus, no the only place on Earth on that day or any day {Sept 22nd 2004} at 4:16 pm can be is in that time zone which falls in the Indian Ocean and Antartica if you use the Sydney 2:15 pm flight 815 take off time reference. If 815 flys northeast to LA they fly into darkness if they fly southwest to Indian Ocean or Antartica you fly into daylight from Sydney.

So if it was the indian ocean or the antartic is the sun in the right position as seen in Tale of two cities.

Even though those are the only two places it could be sunlight at 4:15pm, whose to say 4:15pm island time corresponds to world time, it could conceivably be anywhere in the world with sunlight at that moment.




You know, I hate to say this, but...if I was on a plane that was very cleverly going in circles, I don't know if I would know the difference. Does this idea mean that the Island is close to where the Losties took off from, Richardstone?

I have been on planes that have circled around a location for hours and if the circle is big enough you won't really noticed it.




Of course Gregg's messing with everyone's minds! ;) Speaking of time, I always thought that if Island time was different than regular, real-life time, it went by faster. Afterall, when we saw Walt last in terms of the storyline, he looked older and only a few months had past. Now that we know that there are two Islands, I remembered that when the Others kidnapped Walt, they probably brought him back to their Island. He was probably on the Other's Island most of the time that he was gone. He did his aging there. What does this say about how time goes by on the Losties' Island? Does this mean that time on the Losties' Island goes by slower than the Others' Island? How about how each Island's time goes by versus real life time?

TPTB did say they were going to incorporate Walt's aging into the plot, what you have suggested would work. And if island time does move slower it would also explain why Jack's hair never grows :D

Okay, I don't have time to read all the pages, so I am just going to give my thoughts, and if it's been said, my apologies.

So Gregg said that they did indeed crash at 4:16. The flight should've lasted 8 hours, if the pilot was correct, 6 towards LA and 2 towards Fiji. So, they should've crashed at 10:16 Syd. time, because they left at 2 p.m. 2 + 8 =10, so they crashed 10:16 SYD time.

SYD is +10GMT.

So if Gregg said they crashed at 4:16 p.m., then the time zone they crashed in is +4 GMT because 10:16 - 4:16 = 6 hours difference. So +10GMT - 6 hours = +4 GMT.

So, it turn out that the place in the world where the time is +4 GMT is to the East of Africa, in the Indian Ocean. Of course, this only works if the island time is the same was world time, and nothing fishy is going on (besides the pilot flying in the wrong direction ;) )

Could this explain why there is a slave ship (possibly from Mozambique) and a Nigerian plane on the island?

Again, sorry if someone already brought this up, but this is what I thought when i read his post.

I
No, it wasn't mentioned in either of the questions.
What one of them DID say was about flying in the wrong direction for 2 hours, but that would be after flying in the assumed direction for 4 hours. Not the idea that they took off and simply flew in a different direction to the assumed one from the start.

Here's the reference to flying in the other direction, from Fourtoes' question: (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67462)
For a daytime crash at 6 or 8 hours of flying, the plane would need to be in the Indian Ocean, which we might think passengers would have noticed.

If the only place they could have ended up was the Indian Ocean, then they would have had to flown in the wrong direction from the start, and if they immediately
took off in the wrong direction then the pilot would have to have done this knowingly and the air traffic controller would know as well.

If the only place they could have ended up was the Indian Ocean, then they would have had to flown in the wrong direction from the start, and if they immediately took off in the wrong direction then the pilot would have to have done this knowingly and the air traffic controller would know as well.

Yes, this has been discussed many many times since S1.
I was just pointing out to Lucidity that it couldn't be Nation's ~~missing element~~, since it was mentioned in the very query to which he replied.

I don't think we can rule it out completely as a theory; it's just not the "figure out the time thing", re the thread topic.
100%
annie m: It's a classic. Here's (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7474) one of my all time favorite takes on the subject by a poster named clayseason -- make sure you read the expanded version, too.

And if you follow the discussion you'll see it's been one of my favorite topics for a long long time now. Clayseason and I readily admit to an obsession with the time and flight discrepancies. I was glad Gregg finally spoke out on it. His response considerably narrows the number of viable theories.

Lostmio We posted at the same time, I didn't even see your post when I made that comment :)

Yes, the plane flying in the wrong direction has been discussed, but have people suggested that the airport officials would realise immediately that the plane was going in the wrong direction. (just want to confirm this aspect)

Gus, no the only place on Earth on that day or any day {Sept 22nd 2004} at 4:16 pm can be is in that time zone which falls in the Indian Ocean and Antartica if you use the Sydney 2:15 pm flight 815 take off time reference. If 815 flys northeast to LA they fly into darkness if they fly southwest to Indian Ocean or Antartica you fly into daylight from Sydney.

YES!!! Other folks are getting it now!!!! The in-air time and crash time just don't work with the pilot's account.

I added the underline. Numb, you should properly add after the underline "and if we believe the pilot's account" (i.e., he's not lying and it's not a continuity error).
In an earlier post (#36), I believe, I found one way Cindy's account might work. I'm not claiming it's THE answer, just that it's plausible, if you throw out the pilot's account.

Oh, okay, I guess that makes sense, ya know, seeing the airplane go in the wrong direction. :rolleyes:

Other than that, I can only think of time moving slower/faster on the island, yet I've seen that discussed plenty of times and Gregg says it's something 'new'

I read some posts, and the words 'island time' struck out to me, like it did for others. I'm thinking there is more to this phrase, such as the island is in it's own time zone, or something to that extent.

Lostmio We posted at the same time, I didn't even see your post when I made that comment :)


Is this thread a hunk of fun or what?
It's not only a metaphor for the MESS to which Gregg referred, it's helping kill time as we countdown til Wednesday.
:) backatcha, and I need to go catch up with the Whispers thread. I still think it's important that so many of them are tied into radio or radio type transmissions!

Is this thread a hunk of fun or what?
It's not only a metaphor for the MESS to which Gregg referred, it's helping kill time as we countdown til Wednesday.
:) backatcha, and I need to go catch up with the Whispers thread. I still think it's important that so many of them are tied into radio or radio type transmissions!

Oh yeah go check it out I just posted 3 scenes this week, two of them are Danny walkie talkie radio scenes

QUOTE=_chelle_;1358757]To quote Lewis Black, "Something is askeeewwwww." What is it we're missing? Of course, if it's some unknown variable that's going to blow our minds, the possibilities are endless. My need to swear is overwhelming.

Looking at it from one other angle, take into consideration the opening montage from TO2C. Granted, we're given little pieces of Juliet's day that go toward establishing this woman's existence on what turns out to be a nearby island community, NOT the real world. But what kind of time-line are we looking at? Actually she in Lost gulch said to be on 'the lost island'

It appears that the first shot is when Juliet is just out of bed. A sort of start-the-day-wipe-the-sleep-out-of-your-eyes moment. (OK, that's an assumption and doesn't lend any credence to it actually being morning, she could have been working a late shift and slept in:rolleyes: ) She chooses a certain CD case and plays the CD inside which we now know is not the one that belonged in that case. Music brings certain emotions and continues playing. Maybe more to this, different specimens in different packaging

In the next shot she is dressed and is busy with book club preparations and burning her hand on the muffins she mixed up and baked. There's a knock at the door, and as she answers it the song is still playing in her house. Maybe she set it to repeat, and,I suppose that could just be for our benefit to keep mood/scene continuity seem less.

Doesn't the book club meet shortly thereafter? That's why the woman turned up with a book in her hand, I'm assuming. (BTW, does there appear to be any wrapping on Juliet's burnt hand at the time the book club gets underway?) Of course it's while the book club is in session that the Island rumbles and the plane comes into view, breaking apart. From the way they shield their eyes to look up at the airplane, I would guess the sun is quite high in the sky at the time. If that matters. (if the 'dome' was open. could be reaction to natural light.)

I dunno. Seems like it might still be morning. Yes, you could serve muffins and coffee at an afternoon book club, I suppose, but it sure seems like morning, island time, rather than late afternoon. Maybe Otherville Standard Time differs from Craphole Standard Time.:huh: Maybe it can be whatever time they want it to be, which means none of our calculations matter anyway.
sigh[/QUOTE] If it shook at ground level would it have been better or worse below ground level in a bunker?

There is another explanation, wierd, but possible. We're talking of two different plane crashes. Could be the same plane, two different moments in time. Or two entirely different planes, at different times. Would there have been another crash where the bodies were not recoverable but identified by DNA (brushes) and artifacts like cameras and photographs etc. Then at least 2 more planes if their flashbacks are true (different seats) that may have been used for the gathering

Is the sun their light source? If they can control the environment in the bunkers can they also control 'the islands'?

I guess it's important in that we want the central time-line to be accurate, and I think it's important to a lot of us that TPTB weren't being careless with something that feels like it should be written in stone. If there's a discrepancy, and it sure as heck seems that there is, I would like it to be due to some sort of anomaly or some other factor we haven't considered. But that's just my opinion.
A practical approach to flight duration. Charlie as a drug attic would know the count on the statues, Sawyer as a retriever would have a count on his booze collection, So too Hurley the foodaholic would have some kind of aprox on the meals that survived the 'crash' which would indicate by their type and count what phase of the trip they were up to?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=89

Although this is a mat painting, it doesn't look like morning to me.

I have a very simplistic offering...
Look at these screencaps:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=64

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=36

Now, from what we know from the crash, and now have seen in TO2C, how on earth did the wreckage land that way? It wasn't any type of crash-landing, t he plane ripped apart in mid-air and then the pieces plummetted to the earth. Now, wouldn't there just be giant chunks of metal, and not anear-perfectly formed piece of fuselage?

Maybe it wa sjust done for dramatic purposes, but that's one thing that has always struck me as odd. The plane didn't fly down, or float down... thousands of pounds of metal fell from miles in the air. Seems like it would me more of a mess to me.

I have a very simplistic offering...
Look at these screencaps:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=64

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=36

Now, from what we know from the crash, and now have seen in TO2C, how on earth did the wreckage land that way? It wasn't any type of crash-landing, t he plane ripped apart in mid-air and then the pieces plummetted to the earth. Now, wouldn't there just be giant chunks of metal, and not anear-perfectly formed piece of fuselage?

Maybe it wa sjust done for dramatic purposes, but that's one thing that has always struck me as odd. The plane didn't fly down, or float down... thousands of pounds of metal fell from miles in the air. Seems like it would me more of a mess to me.

S1E7 Sayid Not like this one. The tail section broke off when we were still in the air. Our section cart wheeled through the jungle and yet we escaped with nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?

S1E7 Sayid Not like this one. The tail section broke off when we were still in the air. Our section cart wheeled through the jungle and yet we escaped with nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?

LOL, that's what I'm sayin'... I hope that's something that's explained in some way.

The fact that it was addressed in the actual program makes me think that it will be.

What if it's a different plane? Look at Bernard's seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=814&pos=107) (plain blue, no red stripes on the fabric), then look at Rose and Jack's seats (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=399) (subtle, but there's a double stripe - dark blue, and a thin red on top of the blue).

But..."There may actually be survivors" of the decoy plane they crashed just to use the pieces, or what?
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
100%
Also:

-Sawyer in post-crash seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=62&pos=96)

-Locke's seat on 815 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=486&pos=896)

What if it's a different plane? Look at Bernard's seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=814&pos=107) (plain blue, no red stripes on the fabric), then look at Rose and Jack's seats (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=399) (subtle, but there's a double stripe - dark blue, and a thin red on top of the blue).

But..."There may actually be survivors" of the decoy plane they crashed just to use the pieces, or what?
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
100%
Also:

-Sawyer in post-crash seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=62&pos=96)

-Locke's seat on 815 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=486&pos=896)

Different scections in planes very often have different seats, 1st class, Business, Economy. We know Bernard was in the back of the plane.

Maybe it wa sjust done for dramatic purposes, but that's one thing that has always struck me as odd. The plane didn't fly down, or float down... thousands of pounds of metal fell from miles in the air. Seems like it would me more of a mess to me.
LOL, that's what I'm sayin'... I hope that's something that's explained in some way.

The fact that it was addressed in the actual program makes me think that it will be.

We are bound to accept the opossing forces of electromagnetism as the answer. The magnet engulfed the plane when it came within it's field, so the plane didn't fall to earth it was sucked to earth uintil such a time when it was outside of the main field of pull or until such a time that it had accelerated out of the field or indeed until such a time that the magnet was switched off/restarted(Desmond). This is why the tailies ended up on the other side of the isalnd. The magnet litreally sucked the plane to it s opposing sides, it's + and it's -(minus). The reason our losties didn't hit the ground with a bang(or fall simply straight down) was that the 2 main sections of the plane although falling descended angulary within the extreme pull of the magnetic fields almost like a landing.

call me nuts... (call me anything, I can't hear you :biggrin: ) but:

Might Time be sucked off one 'thing' - say an island - and wrapped around another 'thing' - say... another island - in the manner that celestial bodies are seen to do with matter? Think of a cassette/VHS tape revolving to get what I mean. Sort of. lol.

You can blame the poster somewhere above for setting me off on the 'two islands, two speeds of time' thing ...and the 'missing star' debete on other threads - I was happy to come and post this morning about REALLY BIG head or tail winds before I got reading.

But mad as that sounds; lets not forget how Henry Gale's niece arrived in Oz. ;)

~ nearly new epi time *relief* thank the Island gods! ~

Hmm I wonder how long this thread will get before we find out what Gregg was talking about, 100 pages, 200pages, do I hear 300 pages? :D

one offering this morning: How would a big honking magnet affect time telling devices? cause the isotopes to decay faster?

Gus good morning and I don't have a clue. We'll have to wait for someone else I guess.

GN’s comments definately seem to imply the time angle is important, but maybe we’re all thinking too small-scale by focusing on how many “hours” the plane was in the air before it lost radio contact. I wonder whether “island time” is years into the future, either because of some time-jumping wormhole or because the losties were drugged in-flight and then kept in hibernation as part of some experiment (take your pick although I favour the hibernation scenario). Here are possible clues:

1) Discrepancies over how long they were in the air before the plane lost contact seems to imply that there’s something significant but “off” about how much time has passed since the losties took off from Sydney. So far we’ve been focusing on hours because of varying accounts from the pilot and Ana-Lucia etc - but perhaps its years. You could also add to this queries regarding how just long it took Ethan and Goodwin to reach the plane after they saw it crash, and at what point Ana-Lucia saw Goodwin on the beach. All this seems to suggest that there’s something strange about how long between the flight, the crash and the losties waking up on the beach.

2) Staged theory: perhaps the plane wreckage they found on the island wasn’t the plane they took off in. For example, Jack uses a fire extinguisher to break into the cockpit, but I’m sure it isn’t on the wall in Charlie’s pre-crash flashback.

3) the Penny clue: I found a few spoilers about “Penny” with very ambiguous wording which made me wonder if perhaps it wasn’t actually Penny that we saw in the final scene of 2.24. Maybe it was Penny and Desmond’s grown-up daughter (which would tie in with Penelope/Odyssey parallels), meaning that “island time” is much later than 2004. I’ve used capitals here to emphasize my point:

“We have a flashback OR SO WE THINK TO PENNY watching the news just after the phone call she received from the arctic monitoring station ...”

Sorry I can’t remember where I found that, and I realise that as a spoiler it’s hardly reliable info. But here’s another more recent quote from Damon from http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/755/755527p4.html

“I think the idea that PENNY is looking for Desmond SEEMINGLY is something that comes into play very significantly in the eighth episode of the show.”

4) The Pearl print-out: timeline was ambiguous. Could’ve been any year ending in a “4”.

5) The Red Sox game: Ben had to replay the game on video so it wasn’t a live transmission. So it could’ve been taped years before. Perhaps the fact that Juliet pretended to show Jack a film (To Kill A Mockingbird) made many years previous was a clue to this.

6) The weird foot statue: obvious Planet of the Ape reference. When Charlton Heston sees the Statue of Liberty, he realizes he’s still on earth but it’s well into the future. I admit it seems too simple to be true here, but perhaps we’re just too busy focusing on hidden clues to recognize the blatant ones.

(Sorry if the above spoilers aren't hidden - I'm having trouble working out how to do them).

Different scections in planes very often have different seats, 1st class, Business, Economy. We know Bernard was in the back of the plane.

Yes, but the seat Sawyer's using on the beach is from the fuselage. :confused:

3) the Penny clue: I found a few spoilers about “Penny” with very ambiguous wording which made me wonder if perhaps it wasn’t actually Penny that we saw in the final scene of 2.24. Maybe it was Penny and Desmond’s grown-up daughter (which would tie in with Penelope/Odyssey parallels), meaning that “island time” is much later than 2004. I’ve used capitals here to emphasize my point:
“We have a flashback OR SO WE THINK TO PENNY watching the news just after the phone call she received from the arctic monitoring station ...”


The 'so we think' means the scene isn't a flashback, it happened in Lost present time.

I have a very simplistic offering...
Look at these screencaps:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=64

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=36

Now, from what we know from the crash, and now have seen in TO2C, how on earth did the wreckage land that way? It wasn't any type of crash-landing, t he plane ripped apart in mid-air and then the pieces plummetted to the earth. Now, wouldn't there just be giant chunks of metal, and not anear-perfectly formed piece of fuselage?

Maybe it wa sjust done for dramatic purposes, but that's one thing that has always struck me as odd. The plane didn't fly down, or float down... thousands of pounds of metal fell from miles in the air. Seems like it would me more of a mess to me.If it truly went from the sky to the beach, it had to do it somewhat gently (at least some sections of the plane) because people survived. If it smashed into the Island too hard, no one would have survived...in a normal, real life situation. If this isn't the case, then the Losties are "special", the Island brought them back to life (or never let them officially die in the first place) or...there's some hocus pocus going on and the plane never crashed...

S1E7 Sayid Not like this one. The tail section broke off when we were still in the air. Our section cart wheeled through the jungle and yet we escaped with nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?Yeah, how do you explain that?

LOL, that's what I'm sayin'... I hope that's something that's explained in some way.

The fact that it was addressed in the actual program makes me think that it will be.Oh, GOD! I hope so...

What if it's a different plane? Look at Bernard's seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=814&pos=107) (plain blue, no red stripes on the fabric), then look at Rose and Jack's seats (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=399) (subtle, but there's a double stripe - dark blue, and a thin red on top of the blue).

But..."There may actually be survivors" of the decoy plane they crashed just to use the pieces, or what?
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
100%
Also:

-Sawyer in post-crash seat (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=62&pos=96)

-Locke's seat on 815 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=486&pos=896)I've seen differently-colored seats in the same section. If one breaks at the last minute, the airline might not be able to fix it with a matching alternative...

So, lucky, you are saying that the Losties' plane was the decoy plane and that another plane also crashed on the Island that day, too?

The 'so we think' means the scene isn't a flashback, it happened in Lost present time.Hmmm...does this mean that the actress that's playing Penny is also playing her daughter and they look exactly alike? This reminds me of the whole parthenogenesis thing/discussion. Somehow, I think a clone of the mother is created in relation to...oh, well, whatever...:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

GN’s comments definately seem to imply the time angle is important, but maybe we’re all thinking too small-scale by focusing on how many “hours” the plane was in the air before it lost radio contact. I wonder whether “island time” is years into the future, either because of some time-jumping wormhole or because the losties were drugged in-flight and then kept in hibernation as part of some experiment (take your pick although I favour the hibernation scenario). Here are possible clues:

1) Discrepancies over how long they were in the air before the plane lost contact seems to imply that there’s something significant but “off” about how much time has passed since the losties took off from Sydney. So far we’ve been focusing on hours because of varying accounts from the pilot and Ana-Lucia etc - but perhaps its years. You could also add to this queries regarding how just long it took Ethan and Goodwin to reach the plane after they saw it crash, and at what point Ana-Lucia saw Goodwin on the beach. All this seems to suggest that there’s something strange about how long between the flight, the crash and the losties waking up on the beach.

2) Staged theory: perhaps the plane wreckage they found on the island wasn’t the plane they took off in. For example, Jack uses a fire extinguisher to break into the cockpit, but I’m sure it isn’t on the wall in Charlie’s pre-crash flashback.

3) the Penny clue: I found a few spoilers about “Penny” with very ambiguous wording which made me wonder if perhaps it wasn’t actually Penny that we saw in the final scene of 2.24. Maybe it was Penny and Desmond’s grown-up daughter (which would tie in with Penelope/Odyssey parallels), meaning that “island time” is much later than 2004. I’ve used capitals here to emphasize my point:

Spoilers

4) The Pearl print-out: timeline was ambiguous. Could’ve been any year ending in a “4”.

5) The Red Sox game: Ben had to replay the game on video so it wasn’t a live transmission. So it could’ve been taped years before. Perhaps the fact that Juliet pretended to show Jack a film (To Kill A Mockingbird) made many years previous was a clue to this.

6) The weird foot statue: obvious Planet of the Ape reference. When Charlton Heston sees the Statue of Liberty, he realizes he’s still on earth but it’s well into the future. I admit it seems too simple to be true here, but perhaps we’re just too busy focusing on hidden clues to recognize the blatant ones.

I'm genrally quite partial to the "they're in the future" theories because they some fun narrative doors and provide the writers plenty of options for dramatic reveals down the road. Of course, they might also may send a good portion of viewers packing (but not me).

Consider a 5-year jump in time between flight departure and crash; this would be enough to bring the island "in synch" with events in the real world in 2009, which would might make the show's conclusion more "relevant". A short jump -- less than a day -- combined with crossing the international date line, might explain the current dilemma. And as others have noted, such a short jump "in time" wouldn't even require actual time travel, but merely a drugging of all the passengers. ("Merely"!!)

A longer jump into the future -- for instance, into a post-apocalyptic world -- provides too many options for there to be any meaningful way to guess at what happened, given the limited information we have currently. I mean, if the answer is that the Earth has been shifted on its axis so that there are 24 hours of daylight in Fiji, then all bets are off.

If time travel plays a part in this, shouldn't the pilot's perspective be key? Assuming he wasn't in on any plot, then if the plane flew into a time "doorway", that ought to be the moment when the radio stopped working -- because it no longer was, in Star Trek terminology, "in phase" with 2004 (or under post-apocalyptic theories, because there are no other radios out there). But if that took place 6 hours in, then we still have the problem that the sunlight should have been failing by that point. Which points to the time travel happening earlier in the flight -- yet if the plane's radio was working for a number of hours after a jump in time, wouldn't the pilot/air traffic controllers noticed something funny? "Hey, Flight 815, you went missing yesterday! How the hell are you guys?"

Didn't Tom make a comment about this to Ethan in the medical hatch? Rather, what did Tom say to Ethan then? Something about the list not being made and that "He" would be mad...
Junie: Yep, he said Ethan was supposed to make a list before bringing Claire to them, but no mention of the three days. Maybe the plan changed, or maybe the three days was solely for Goodwin. Still, I've always been troubled by the timing of Ethan's arrival among the fuselage survivors...

The 'so we think' means the scene isn't a flashback, it happened in Lost present time.

The wording is very ambiguous and it could be taken either way. But why point out it happened in the present - I assumed the final scene in 2.24 had happened in the present anyway, didn't you?

We are bound to accept the opossing forces of electromagnetism as the answer. The magnet engulfed the plane when it came within it's field, so the plane didn't fall to earth it was sucked to earth uintil such a time when it was outside of the main field of pull or until such a time that it had accelerated out of the field or indeed until such a time that the magnet was switched off/restarted(Desmond). This is why the tailies ended up on the other side of the isalnd. The magnet litreally sucked the plane to it s opposing sides, it's + and it's -(minus). The reason our losties didn't hit the ground with a bang(or fall simply straight down) was that the 2 main sections of the plane although falling descended angulary within the extreme pull of the magnetic fields almost like a landing.
But Sayid demonstrated that the plane was made of non-magnetic material!

But Sayid demonstrated that the plane was made of non-magnetic material!When?

If you are talking about:

S2E4 Sayid Interesting. Good thing this is titanium... almost no magnetic attraction... but we're not going to get in up here.

There is no evidence that that piece of titanium was from the plane.

I'm genrally quite partial to the "they're in the future" theories because they some fun narrative doors and provide the writers plenty of options for dramatic reveals down the road. Of course, they might also may send a good portion of viewers packing (but not me).

Consider a 5-year jump in time between flight departure and crash; this would be enough to bring the island "in synch" with events in the real world in 2009, which would might make the show's conclusion more "relevant". A short jump -- less than a day -- combined with crossing the international date line, might explain the current dilemma. And as others have noted, such a short jump "in time" wouldn't even require actual time travel, but merely a drugging of all the passengers. ("Merely"!!)

A longer jump into the future -- for instance, into a post-apocalyptic world -- provides too many options for there to be any meaningful way to guess at what happened, given the limited information we have currently. I mean, if the answer is that the Earth has been shifted on its axis so that there are 24 hours of daylight in Fiji, then all bets are off.

If time travel plays a part in this, shouldn't the pilot's perspective be key? Assuming he wasn't in on any plot, then if the plane flew into a time "doorway", that ought to be the moment when the radio stopped working -- because it no longer was, in Star Trek terminology, "in phase" with 2004 (or under post-apocalyptic theories, because there are no other radios out there). But if that took place 6 hours in, then we still have the problem that the sunlight should have been failing by that point. Which points to the time travel happening earlier in the flight -- yet if the plane's radio was working for a number of hours after a jump in time, wouldn't the pilot/air traffic controllers noticed something funny? "Hey, Flight 815, you went missing yesterday! How the hell are you guys?"If this is it, how long does it take to jump five years into the future? Maybe, the plane's radio was too old-fashioned to work in the future and that's why it stopped working?

Junie: Yep, he said Ethan was supposed to make a list before bringing Claire to them, but no mention of the three days. Maybe the plan changed, or maybe the three days was solely for Goodwin. Still, I've always been troubled by the timing of Ethan's arrival among the fuselage survivors...There are so many questions out there about time and how it might or might now play a role in LOST and all of the possible discrepancies in the story that it makes me think that time has to play some sort of a role...and what role that is will become clearer this year, I hope...

The wording is very ambiguous and it could be taken either way. But why point out it happened in the present - I assumed the final scene in 2.24 had happened in the present anyway, didn't you?Yes, I did. I thought we were seeing Penny on the same day and year that we were seeing the Losties...until someone else asked, "What if that's Penny five years from now, still searching for Desmond?" that I thought about it...

Oh, my aching eyes and head...I love it...;)

awesome catch on the 10 digit thing. I can't see this as being a mistake, the writers are so good with the little details.

If you are talking about:

S2E4 Sayid Interesting. Good thing this is titanium... almost no magnetic attraction... but we're not going to get in up here.

There is no evidence that that piece of titanium was from the plane.
Do you have in mind any other plausible origin for that metal -- unless it was planted to appear to have been part of the "wreckage", but not actually be so?

So which is it:

The entire crash was simulated?
The crash was real, but that piece of metal, which someone figured out Sayid would use as a tool, was simulated wreckage?
The crash was real, but Sayid is an agent trying to get Losties to doubt that the crash was real?Robert

Do you have in mind any other plausible origin for that metal -- unless it was planted to appear to have been part of the "wreckage", but not actually be so?

So which is it:

The entire crash was simulated?
The crash was real, but that piece of metal, which someone figured out Sayid would use as a tool, was simulated wreckage?
The crash was real, but Sayid is an agent trying to get Losties to doubt that the crash was real?RobertSayid didn't get it from the wreckage. it was under ground in the area that he and Jack crawled into.

I think Sayid picked up something that was right by the cement wall to start hitting it. It was a spur of the moment thing. It would have required him knowing that there was a cement wall there with a powerful magnetic source behind it and he wanted to have something to break it in with.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=748&pos=360
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=748&pos=361

Jack and Sayid went down under the hatch.

5) The Red Sox game: Ben had to replay the game on video so it wasn’t a live transmission. So it could’ve been taped years before. Perhaps the fact that Juliet pretended to show Jack a film (To Kill A Mockingbird) made many years previous was a clue to this.

Your post just made me realise that the othes are using VHS tapes instead of DVD's or recordable DVD's that's a bit dated these days. Whereas they do have CD's. Just an observation.

If it truly went from the sky to the beach, it had to do it somewhat gently (at least some sections of the plane) because people survived. If it smashed into the Island too hard, no one would have survived...in a normal, real life situation. If this isn't the case, then the Losties are "special", the Island brought them back to life (or never let them officially die in the first place) or...there's some hocus pocus going on and the plane never crashed...

Yeah, how do you explain that?

Oh, GOD! I hope so...

I've seen differently-colored seats in the same section. If one breaks at the last minute, the airline might not be able to fix it with a matching alternative...

So, lucky, you are saying that the Losties' plane was the decoy plane and that another plane also crashed on the Island that day, too?

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: [/spoiler]


I posted a very possible explanation for the plane crash just a couple of posts above.maybe you missed it and then again maybe not....but just in case:)

I believe the missing piece is time. I don't know how people feel about the ARG but in the ARG, the numbers represented the valenzetti equation which was basically a calculation for the date of the end of time. DHARMA was on the island to find a way to change one of the variables in the valenzetti equation.

What could DHARMA be doing if they in fact knew the above information? Find a way to change the path to that point or MAYBE to never reach that point. In effect, roll back time. What would you do if you couldn't take your watch off but you knew it would explode on your wrist if it ever reached 12:00? Obviosuly, you'd turn the hands back every so often to ensure it never reached 12:00 and then get a good lawyer and sue the watch maker.

Perhaps when Flight 815 approached the island, they lost time or essentially went back in time. Maybe not years but maybe just hours. Maybe they flew for 6 hours but actually lost 4 of those once they entered the islands airspace. What should have been night was rolled back four hours so it was still afternoon. However, it can't be that simple since time has to always be adjusted to avoid ever reaching the end date of the valenzetti equation. You can't just roll back 4 hours because eventually you will reach that end point so I think time has to be rolled back by some increment on a regular basis.

This could completely explain the Swan as well.

I work with computers. When you have two computers linked together acting as one, it's called a cluster. They cluster has a heartbeat which is essentially a connection between the two where they talk periodically so they each individual computer knows the other is still there. They send a "keep alive" to maintain that heartbeat connection and if that keep alive stops coming, then the connection is severed.

I'm thinking that the Swan was a heartbeat connection with the outside world and that a keep alive had to be manually sent every 108 minutes so that the outside world knows there is still somebody on the island.

The failsafe that Desmond initiated broke that connection and that is why the others can no longer communicate with the outside world. The island is now truly lost in time.

I also believe that the mysterious whispers are a clue to the altered time on the island. Perhaps echos from time in the outside world Maybe different times coexisting in the same place. maybe there are people on the island that exist in outside world time and they have the technology to view what is happening on the island in the past where the others and the losties currently exist.

I also believe the watch that Jin was delivering somehow Keeps island time for the other end of the connection which exists in the outside world. Sort of like flying from LA to NY and leaving your watch on PST except the watch would have to have a mechanism to keep it in synch with the constantly changing island time.

I know crazy and probably more holes than a fine baby swiss...

Perhaps when Flight 815 approached the island, they lost time or essentially went back in time. Maybe not years but maybe just hours. Maybe they flew for 6 hours but actually lost 4 of those once they entered the islands airspace. What should have been night was rolled back four hours so it was still afternoon. However, it can't be that simple since time has to always be adjusted to avoid ever reaching the end date of the valenzetti equation.

Now that GN has confirmed the plane-down time, we can use that info to better refine our theories and specs.
Like you, I think in terms of hours. If they've quantum-leaped days or months or years into the future, then all the info about flight departure, arrival, and crash time don't mean anything. It's unlikely they would have presented that huge heap of info about the flight departure time window if it was just a red herring.

I've long favored the theory that they 'lost' a few hours. After 2.5 seasons, there's not much been shown to support that though. And believe me, I've avidly looked and listened for clues. I'm not giving up yet, but if we don't see anything by the end of S3, I'm burning my empty ~Lost lost hours~ cluebook. :biggrin:

I agree with your notion that the Swan computer was part of a network and there would have been some protocols to go along with that. That could have been the sole purpose of entering the numbers. It would disappoint some folks but imo the whole `press execute` thing was likely a macguffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin), anyway.

As were the numbers. I followed TLE (to my eternal regret) and I'll be surprised and disappointed if the valenzetti equation rears its cheesy head on the show. Imo, it was just a way to appease all the folks who demanded an explanation for the numbers. And I think Dharma's a lame duck on the island, if they're still there at all.

Do you have in mind any other plausible origin for that metal -- unless it was planted to appear to have been part of the "wreckage", but not actually be so?

So which is it:
The entire crash was simulated?
The crash was real, but that piece of metal, which someone figured out Sayid would use as a tool, was simulated wreckage?
The crash was real, but Sayid is an agent trying to get Losties to doubt that the crash was real?Robert

There's another option that all of the "electromagnetism can't pull down a plane" people keep ignoring. During The Lost Experience it was mentioned that DHARMA was trying to harness the energy to make a weapon that could pull the moon out of orbit. The moon! So, obviously this "electromagnetic energy" had some properties that allowed it to affect non-metallic substances. I suspect that the "energy" was actually something else, but electromagnetism was a Part of it, and that part can be tracked and identified so DHARMA just called it what they could see... electromagnetism.

In other words, this is different energy than what a lot of people think that it is. Look at the scene in the Hatch... records are flying off of shelves... how would electromagnetism throw records and plates?

If it truly went from the sky to the beach, it had to do it somewhat gently (at least some sections of the plane) because people survived.

Exactly... something else had to happen besides just a Crash.

For Hildy ~ I see you're in England, do you remember this? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Train your cryonics thought prompted me to share :smile: and this too; if enough time has elapsed, maybe we need look to nothing more miraculous to John and Rose's healing, than the advances in medical science the cryopreserved (cryonaghts?) are banking on?

I'll bet they remain in a legal limbo or something though - dead in the eyes of the Law; all too uncomfortably alive in someone's laboratory. :devil2: Mwa ha ha ha ha!

hey CR,, could this be nations missing link.. i lifted it from DR. SUDS writings...

Ben gave Goodwin one hour to get to tail beach. Ana spotted him ten minutes after the “crash”. What happened to the missing fifty minutes?

if its not, its still interesting as it relates to time

I believe the missing piece is time. I don't know how people feel about the ARG but in the ARG, the numbers represented the valenzetti equation which was basically a calculation for the date of the end of time. DHARMA was on the island to find a way to change one of the variables in the valenzetti equation.

What could DHARMA be doing if they in fact knew the above information? Find a way to change the path to that point or MAYBE to never reach that point. In effect, roll back time. What would you do if you couldn't take your watch off but you knew it would explode on your wrist if it ever reached 12:00? Obviosuly, you'd turn the hands back every so often to ensure it never reached 12:00 and then get a good lawyer and sue the watch maker.

Perhaps when Flight 815 approached the island, they lost time or essentially went back in time. Maybe not years but maybe just hours. Maybe they flew for 6 hours but actually lost 4 of those once they entered the islands airspace. What should have been night was rolled back four hours so it was still afternoon. However, it can't be that simple since time has to always be adjusted to avoid ever reaching the end date of the valenzetti equation. You can't just roll back 4 hours because eventually you will reach that end point so I think time has to be rolled back by some increment on a regular basis.

This could completely explain the Swan as well.

I work with computers. When you have two computers linked together acting as one, it's called a cluster. They cluster has a heartbeat which is essentially a connection between the two where they talk periodically so they each individual computer knows the other is still there. They send a "keep alive" to maintain that heartbeat connection and if that keep alive stops coming, then the connection is severed.

I'm thinking that the Swan was a heartbeat connection with the outside world and that a keep alive had to be manually sent every 108 minutes so that the outside world knows there is still somebody on the island.

The failsafe that Desmond initiated broke that connection and that is why the others can no longer communicate with the outside world. The island is now truly lost in time.

I also believe that the mysterious whispers are a clue to the altered time on the island. Perhaps echos from time in the outside world Maybe different times coexisting in the same place. maybe there are people on the island that exist in outside world time and they have the technology to view what is happening on the island in the past where the others and the losties currently exist.

I also believe the watch that Jin was delivering somehow Keeps island time for the other end of the connection which exists in the outside world. Sort of like flying from LA to NY and leaving your watch on PST except the watch would have to have a mechanism to keep it in synch with the constantly changing island time.

I know crazy and probably more holes than a fine baby swiss...


That is a cool theory. I like that a lot. I think, for now anyway, the "missing time" theory makes a lot of sense, even if there hasn't been a lot so far to support it.

Hi Gregg!

Well, how'd we do???


I haven't read this thread entirely, but I think I've seen at least 4 more "elements" among these posts to add to the "mess". So, did we find the one you had in mind? ;)

Hey Gregg. yes, yes let us know if we're close! :biggrin:

wait, watch, and see:rolleyes:

LOL!

Gus, you are a true protégé...well,except for that eye roll thing. ;)


Here's Gregg's response:

It's so cool you guys are this much into it. (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=68216)

hey CR,, could this be nations missing link.. i lifted it from DR. SUDS writings...

Ben gave Goodwin one hour to get to tail beach. Ana spotted him ten minutes after the “crash”. What happened to the missing fifty minutes?

if its not, its still interesting as it relates to timeOf course we know that A-L is: A) good judge of time or B) a bad judge of time. (There the "2 hours" on the plane and this.)

Maybe part of the time problem is that most everyone takes the date of the 'plane crash' to be the kick off point to figure time frames for Lostees past events. What if they were taken at different times and by different means? Some may well have arrived by plane and some might even have survived the crash but some might have been scooped up individually voluntarily or unaware. Put 'on ice' or put to use, till being implanted with airport and plane memories(and maybe other things). The big time question like Mars said to Kate [B]]"Why now?" [/B 'Now' being our introduction to the Lostees.

Look at the scene in the Hatch... records are flying off of shelves... how would electromagnetism throw records and plates?

Like this? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetic

how about this.

what if the valenzetti equation states that if a certain point in time is reached without factors changing then there is no stopping the end, sort of like a disaster event horizon.

So they come up with a way of harnessing gravity/magnetism whatever to bend time around the island. The swan is used to control this until the incident, in order to prevent it affecting the future every 108mins. (1hr:48mins) the core values of the equation are entered and some effect is made on the flow of time.

This would explain 2 things roughly the 2 missing hours making it still daylight when they crashed and why desmond can now see the future, time came rushing back to him and he saw the future if nothing changed.

So the bent time no longer exist and the losties must now change the core values to save mankind.

its full of holes but it can be vaguely tied to science and it appeals to the kind of heros saving the world mentality that all american sci fi is based around.

also it neatly ties up a few of the lose ends surrounding unexplained events

hey CR,, could this be nations missing link.. i lifted it from DR. SUDS writings...

Ben gave Goodwin one hour to get to tail beach. Ana spotted him ten minutes after the “crash”. What happened to the missing fifty minutes?

if its not, its still interesting as it relates to time

The scenes on the beach in T048D were not in real-time as far as I'm aware, plus telling exactly how much time has passed after such a catasrophic accident is almost impossible, your sense of time is one of the first things you lose...

i have read a lot of stuff about the philadelphia experiment and how a similar idea could have been used to make the island invisible. but on one of the tests that supposedly happened on the USS Eldridge,
"This time, Eldridge not only became almost entirely invisible to the naked eye, but vanished from the area in a flash of blue light." the US naval base at Norfolk, virginia just over 600 km (375 miles) away, reported sighting the Eldridge offshore for several minutes"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment

so perhaps the experiment / incident in the swan, rather than just make the island invisible, made it go somewhere else, or be between two places as it where.

and each subsequent system failure opened up some kind of portal where things such as flight 815 and the beachcraft got sucked through or transported to that place, which could be anywhere or in any time zone.
also the food drops may have required a controlled system failure in order to be delivered - hence the lock-down and benry's claim to have not pressed the button.

lastly, when the failsafe was turned, the sky turned purple - could that be a nod to the blue flash described above ?

again, it's far-fetched, but most of the proper scientific analysis of the flight time etc seems to have been covered.:)

Philadelphia Experiment was certainly not missed on the Fuselage.
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=7720

Just one of many threads mentioned.

The Wikipedia-article in fact states that Many fans of the ABC TV show Lost, with the season two finale, believe that characters on the shows are either intentionally or unintentionally repeating this experiment.

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment#Audio.2FVisual_Media).

This one is redundant, with all the already provided excerpts of characters stating a six to eight hour flight, but I'll add it anyway:

S1E3 Kate: Yeah, 6 hours in. He turned around and headed for Fiji.
Maybe it's just Kate reiterating what the Pilot said about the time in the air, but she doesnt dispute it (if it was already submitted, my aplogies).

For Hildy ~ I see you're in England, do you remember this? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Train your cryonics thought prompted me to share :smile: and this too; if enough time has elapsed, maybe we need look to nothing more miraculous to John and Rose's healing, than the advances in medical science the cryopreserved (cryonaghts?) are banking on?

Hi Liplocked, thanks for pointing me in the direction of The Last Train. Am ashamed to admit that I'd never heard of it, which is surprising because I usually love those type of things (Survivors was a major fave as a child and The Stand is an all-time fave book!). Interesting parallels with Lost including young pregnant survivor, wild boars on the loose, and animals unusual for the terrain (polar bears on Lost, panthers in Last Train's English setting). Very interesting - cheers, babe. Wish they'd release it on dvd so I could watch it.

I like my cryogenic theory because it could definately explain Rose and Locke's healing (perhaps they volunteered for the process precisely because of this). And of course, you usually have to be dead to be cryogenically frozen - which makes me wonder whether this is the real reason behind Christian's "death".

Finally, someone questioned why the Others would be using video rather than DVD. I wonder whether this signifies that they've been on the island for quite some time and are using the remnants of equipment from many years previous. Also, perhaps the sparkling new washing manchine in the Swan denotes that some other group of others (TPTB) is in overall control rather than the "Others" we know and "love".

I think this mechanical puzzle
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Letyourcompassguideyou.com
is still a good clue to where and when the island is located. Notice the 2 compass's on the page and how the inner mechanism moves from one picture to another. Also the dome over 75% of the compass. Its almost like a combination to a safe, enter all the numbers and the door opens.

After reading through this thread, and verifying some transcripts etc., I am leaning towards the hypothesis that the Tail and the Fuselage are different planes, and that the crashes are (at least) two different events.

Cindy was on both planes - but she's clearly something other than what she seems. Bernard too - if he was going to the restroom, then why was he strapped into a seat? Also, Bernard is a bit suspicious - his whole whirlwind courtship of Rose, plus taking her to the faith-healer, when we know there's some connection between those faith healers and... something.

In reading the transcript from "The Other 48 Days," there are some oddities - perhaps Ana-Lucia didn't see Nathan because they were on different planes / or "space/time continua" if you prefer? Or they were inhabiting different dimensions?

The references to "2 hours," which started this thread, are also a bit odd -- Ana-Lucia first accused Nathan because he was gone for 2 hours, he said he was "in the bathroom," and she didn't see him on the plane he also said because he was in the lavatory, she asked "for 2 hours?" But she does seem to confirm that hers was a 2-hour flight. (Speaking of lavatories, Bernard was supposedly in the lavatory, and Charlie had just been there. Maybe not relevant, but lots of bathroom talk here)

So it was Ana-Lucia's plane that crashed 2 hours after takeoff during the day. The Fuselage crashed after 8 hours (6 out, then it turned around back towards Fiji, because that would have been the closest airport on the great circle route, and flew 2 more hours) and therefore may have crashed at night.

Why did everyone see each other at the airport? Well how do we know that they did? Everything we know is from flashbacks, which we know are subjective.

Also, Bernard forgot Rose's birthday -- why? Perhaps because he was on a different timeline, and his flight had taken off a different day? (would have had the same flight number in that case) So the Bernard on Rose's flight was killed in the tail, the Bernard with the Tailies is either a different guy, or the same guy in a different dimension / space-time continuum, whatever. Assuming he was ever in the fuselage to begin with, we only have Rose's say-so on that.

--rTf

That's a great idea that there were two planes. I think that I've probably heard that before, but hearing it now makes me really interested. It would explain the time descrpeancies, especially if each plane took off from different places and went in different directions. It would also explain why some people didn't remember some people from the plane...because they were on two different planes. The question is: Was one plane not supposed to land or crash on the Island and the other plane was supposed to land there? Is this one giant experiment? Is someone conning the Others, too?

I like that theory.

Bernard could have been strapped in a different seat for the same reason Charlie ended up in the front of the plane. He was in the bathroom and came out when the turbulence began.

I guess this also ties into a theory by Dr. Suds that some of the survivors are fake survivors and other people are real survivors thus prompting Ben to say "There may actually be survivors" in ATOTC.

i dont think the idea of two planes is going to stand up to much scrutiny.
we've seen too much to say that
haven't we ?

I like that theory.

Bernard could have been strapped in a different seat for the same reason Charlie ended up in the front of the plane. He was in the bathroom and came out when the turbulence began.

I guess this also ties into a theory by Dr. Suds that some of the survivors are fake survivors and other people are real survivors thus prompting Ben to say "There may actually be survivors" in ATOTC.Okay. I get that a fake part of the plane could have been planted on the Island (somehow) with fake survivors, but what's the point of that stuff? So that they could join up under a false premise with the Losties and further Ben's cause? Are Nikki and Paulo fake survivors? That whole situation of planting fake survivors implies that someone really thought that there might be "actual survivors". If you thought that there were possibly going to be "actual survivors" from the plane crash, you're nuts...unless you knew more than we know and that there was something fake about the plane crash to begin with and you knew that...

I didn't read all 20 pages ( I tried, but I'm at work, so you know how it is...

But has anyone considerred the idea that perhaps time was passing differently in the cockpit than it was in the rest of the plane? For example, the pilot seemed to think that he had been flying around for 6 hours, yeat the people on the plane seemed to think that it had only been two hours.

Now consider this.

Many fans have postulated that time passes differently on the island. Some have also supposed that there is some sort of "field" or "dome" encompassing the island that is electromagnetic in nature. Now suppose both theories are true.

What would happen to a plane that encountered this electromagnetic dome? It would screw with the instrumentation, almost certainly yes, but what else? Have you ever seen one of those electro magnet thingies that they often sell in museum gift shops where a top is suspended above a magnet and it spins in place? Imagine if a plane passing near the dome got "stuck" like this. To the pilot, it might even seem as if he was still flying even if he was in fact stationary. Now depending on their exact position, suppose the plane was half in and half out of the dome. Perhaps the back of the plane was stuck in the dome and the front was stuck outside the dome. If time passes more slowly inside the dome and faster outside the dome then parhaps what seems like only 2 hours for the passengers was actually 6 hours for the pilot. Who knows how long the plane could actually have been stuck up there? Why did the plane suddenly dislodge? Well, Desmond pressed the button late of course. Not pressing the button somehow disrupts the field and the plane has freed.

I dunno. Was just a thought I had though. I certainly think that there is something going on that we are missing.

Edit:
A further thought I just had was that the plane did split into several sections, perhaps the splits had to do with where the plane was intersecting the "field" or "dome".

i dont think the idea of two planes is going to stand up to much scrutiny.
we've seen too much to say that
haven't we ?Well, we saw a regular-looking plane break into three pieces (I believe) above Otherville. Whose to say that the tailsection that some of the Tailies came from isnt' from another plane? AL was on Jack's plane. I can't remember if I ever saw her on the plane. It was insinuated that they were about to get on the same plane. Maybe, AL boarded another plane that was doing to the same destination (not the Island, but the real one)...and two planes were headed to the same place from the same place...

I didn't read all 20 pages ( I tried, but I'm at work, so you know how it is...

But has anyone considerred the idea that perhaps time was passing differently in the cockpit than it was in the rest of the plane? For example, the pilot seemed to think that he had been flying around for 6 hours, yeat the people on the plane seemed to think that it had only been two hours.

Now consider this.

Many fans have postulated that time passes differently on the island. Some have also supposed that there is some sort of "field" or "dome" encompassing the island that is electromagnetic in nature. Now suppose both theories are true.

What would happen to a plane that encountered this electromagnetic dome? It would screw with the instrumentation, almost certainly yes, but what else? Have you ever seen one of those electro magnet thingies that they often sell in museum gift shops where a top is suspended above a magnet and it spins in place? Imagine if a plane passing near the dome got "stuck" like this. To the pilot, it might even seem as if he was still flying even if he was in fact stationary. Now depending on their exact position, suppose the plane was half in and half out of the dome. Perhaps the back of the plane was stuck in the dome and the front was stuck outside the dome. If time passes more slowly inside the dome and faster outside the dome then parhaps what seems like only 2 hours for the passengers was actually 6 hours for the pilot. Who knows how long the plane could actually have been stuck up there? Why did the plane suddenly dislodge? Well, Desmond pressed the button late of course. Not pressing the button somehow disrupts the field and the plane has freed.

I dunno. Was just a thought I had though. I certainly think that there is something going on that we are missing.

Edit:
A further thought I just had was that the plane did split into several sections, perhaps the splits had to do with where the plane was intersecting the "field" or "dome".

I can see how EM would mess with insruments but with people's perception of time? I don't see how that is possible.

I can see how EM would mess with insruments but with people's perception of time? I don't see how that is possible.

re-read the part where I said :
Many fans have postulated that time passes differently on the island. Some have also supposed that there is some sort of "field" or "dome" encompassing the island that is electromagnetic in nature. Now suppose both theories are true.


I'm not saying that the EM messed with their perception of time. I'm just saying that there is an EM dome and the time on and in the vicinity of the island is not the same as time not on or near the island. Whether or not the EM field and the time thing are realated, no idea. Just basing my thoughts on both of the popular theories that I have read about.

It's funny what deumilcat and I started with our questions on this stuff. Have to appreciate Gregg giving us an answer.
For a fun spat over these issues elsewhere on the Web, try this site (where I'm "Fourtoes," name was taken when I got here) -- http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29514

By the way, Fusers, TPTB have answered the 2 planes question. It was parsed carefully, however, to say that there was only one Oceanic Flight 815. But even without their comments, you would need to find a way to deal with Cindy who was in the fuselage (drinks for Jack) and cockpit (what's Charlie doing?) but ended up with the Tailies, Bernard who started in the fuselage and went down with the tail, and Charlie whose drugs were in the cockpit bathroom while he ended up on the beach. Two planes looks like a loser unless you think the recent TPTB answer to the parallel universes question wasn't a snarky denial.

Regarding "only one Oceanic Flight 815," the dialogue from the transcipt of "The Other 48 Days" is a little subtle -- nobody actually says that the tailies were on *Oceanic* flight 815, Boone says "We're the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815" and Bernard says "We're the survivors of Flight 815", then he repeats "he said 815." Could be nothing, I suppose.

I already dealt with Cindy and Bernard - they were on both flights, because they aren't actually "survivors" they're something else. Also, clearly there are more categories than "survivors" and "others," so Cindy and/or Bernard might be from an entirely different contigent.

I think the fuselage & the cockpit were the same instance, so charlie's drugs aren't a problem.

We know from the flashbacks that the survivors have recollections of each other in the airport - but we don't know if those are reliable or not.

In fact we don't even know if there every actually was a crash -- it seems very unlikely that anybody would survive such a crash. It could just be poetic license, but Sayyid pointed that out as well. So perhaps there are actually other events over time that are causing groups of people to be injected into this environment, and the whole "plane crash" thing is simply how they're perceiving that event.

Regarding "only one Oceanic Flight 815," the dialogue from the transcipt of "The Other 48 Days" is a little subtle -- nobody actually says that the tailies were on *Oceanic* flight 815, Boone says "We're the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815" and Bernard says "We're the survivors of Flight 815", then he repeats "he said 815." Could be nothing, I suppose.

I already dealt with Cindy and Bernard - they were on both flights, because they aren't actually "survivors" they're something else. Also, clearly there are more categories than "survivors" and "others," so Cindy and/or Bernard might be from an entirely different contigent.

I think the fuselage & the cockpit were the same instance, so charlie's drugs aren't a problem.

We know from the flashbacks that the survivors have recollections of each other in the airport - but we don't know if those are reliable or not.

In fact we don't even know if there every actually was a crash -- it seems very unlikely that anybody would survive such a crash. It could just be poetic license, but Sayyid pointed that out as well. So perhaps there are actually other events over time that are causing groups of people to be injected into this environment, and the whole "plane crash" thing is simply how they're perceiving that event.

why was tailies luggage found on the beach?

why was tailies luggage found on the beach?
Because unless it was carry-on it was in the cargo hold of the plane. That could end up anywhere.

Because unless it was carry-on it was in the cargo hold of the plane. That could end up anywhere.

I was just pointing out that they were on the same plane...

I was just pointing out that they were on the same plane...


I agree with you. In my opinion, the evidence for a solo plane is overwhelming. Here are some facts I find particularly relevant:

1. In the wake of the fuselage crash, Rose expresses concern for the fate of her husband. She even asks Jack if he's seen her husband. If R&B weren't on the same plane, this makes absolutely zero sense.

2. The old hansofoundation.org used to have an easter egg where it gave a seating chart for flight 815. There were several tailies on that seating chart.

3. Cindy talked with Jack on the plane. Unless there are multiple Cindys, they have to be on the same plane.

Good point regarding the luggage, although was their luggage actually on the plane? We know that Libby said that Claire was wearing her dress, that's true, but there was something strange about Libby - could be she just lied, or maybe she's also a "something else."

I do have to say, though, that Javi's comment about there only being 1 plane has me thinking that I'm probably off-base with this whole line of inquiry.
100%
I agree with you. In my opinion, the evidence for a solo plane is overwhelming. Here are some facts I find particularly relevant:

1. In the wake of the fuselage crash, Rose expresses concern for the fate of her husband. She even asks Jack if he's seen her husband. If R&B weren't on the same plane, this makes absolutely zero sense.

2. The old hansofoundation.org used to have an easter egg where it gave a seating chart for flight 815. There were several tailies on that seating chart.

3. Cindy talked with Jack on the plane. Unless there are multiple Cindys, they have to be on the same plane.

Well, regarding points 1 & 3, I've addressed this several times -- I'm suggesting that Cindy and Bernard are, essentially, "ushers" -- their role is to guide "survivors" to the island. They've done this more than once, which is why Cindy and Bernard interact with both fuselagers and tailies. Note that Cindy disappears, and Bernard is confused about the date - he forgets Rose's birthday. Why? Because he made multiple trips -- once with Rose, when he disappeared before the crash, and a second time with the Tailies when he remained on the island.

Regarding point 2, that's much more compelling, and would lead me to believe that there is in fact only one plane. Although come to think of it, which tailies? As I suggested before, perhaps Ana Lucia and Nathan weren't on the same plane.

I agree with you. In my opinion, the evidence for a solo plane is overwhelming.

I completely agree. Also, Ana-Lucia and Jack had a drink at the terminal right before their flight departed. Ok, that doesn't 100% prove they were on the same plane, but it would be most likely.

The theories that the plane crash was faked or there might be two planes was definitely proven wrong when we were shown the crash from Ben&co's perspective. That left nothing to argue about on those two matters. The plane still could be crashed on purpose, that is still open for discussion imo (though I don't think so).

My guess is, the earthquake phenomena that struck the Other Village was a result of 815 hitting a time warp, fortunately, it was not the 'big one' and time got scrambled, but only in a very tiny time period in question, right before the 4:16 island time catch. No one and nothing was lost, (except for the hairbrushes), hence the fuselage section 'landing' with Charlie in that section and Cindy in the tail section, they didn't exactly mesh with time when they were pulled back through. (Not as bad as what happened in that Stephen King movie where the airplane hit a space rift...)

Don't forget there were no hairbrushes in the luggage which could point to tampering. And if there was time to tamper, then there was time to place luggage there that wasn't on the plane.

I completely agree. Also, Ana-Lucia and Jack had a drink at the terminal right before their flight departed. Ok, that doesn't 100% prove they were on the same plane, but it would be most likely.

The theories that the plane crash was faked or there might be two planes was definitely proven wrong when we were shown the crash from Ben&co's perspective. That left nothing to argue about on those two matters. The plane still could be crashed on purpose, that is still open for discussion imo (though I don't think so).

Well, I'm pretty much convinced that the 2 plane theory doesn't hold water, but these two items don't necessarily disprove it -- although a flashback strongly leads us to believe that Ana-Lucia and Jack had a drink together in the airport just before getting on the plane, we don't know that's actually the case -- it's at best one person's memory of what happened. (I think it probably is what it seems, I'm just saying it isn't necessarily what it seems)

Also, what Ben & co. saw was ONE plane crash -- they saw the Tailies crash, which occured 2 hours after takeoff during the day. Per the 2 planes theory, we don't have information about what they may or may not have seen during the 2nd crash, which was probably 8 hours after takeoff and likely in the dark.

Desmond THINKS he crashed the Oceanic 815 to crash at 4:15, but that doesn't prove that he's correct.

Still, as I said I'm leaning against this theory, just trying to reconcile the 2-hour flight that the Tailies experienced with the 6+ hour flight that the fuselage folk apparently had.

Two quick points: First, the "two planes" theory derives originally from the Oceanic Air website, which had a fake news story about a similar crash to 815 in the same area from around the same time -- maybe a year earlier? This was pre-TLE, but on an officially sanctioned site, so make of it what you will.

Second, someone once suggested an interesting theory of why the plane crashed that might explain the time discrepancy. Assume, for the sake of argument, that they went through a rip in the fabric of spacetime. Assume as well that time moves at a different rate (i.e., slower or faster) on the Island than the real world.

Perhaps the plane broke apart because it was in two different times simultaneously. The cockpit and fuselage went through first, which is why people in those sections experienced a different time interval than the tailies, who went through the rip last.

My guess is, the earthquake phenomena that struck the Other Village was a result of 815 hitting a time warp, fortunately, it was not the 'big one' and time got scrambled, but only in a very tiny time period in question, right before the 4:16 island time catch. No one and nothing was lost, (except for the hairbrushes), hence the fuselage section 'landing' with Charlie in that section and Cindy in the tail section, they didn't exactly mesh with time when they were pulled back through. (Not as bad as what happened in that Stephen King movie where the airplane hit a space rift...)

Two quick points: First, the "two planes" theory derives originally from the Oceanic Air website, which had a fake news story about a similar crash to 815 in the same area from around the same time -- maybe a year earlier? This was pre-TLE, but on an officially sanctioned site, so make of it what you will.

Second, someone once suggested an interesting theory of why the plane crashed that might explain the time discrepancy. Assume, for the sake of argument, that they went through a rip in the fabric of spacetime. Assume as well that time moves at a different rate (i.e., slower or faster) on the Island than the real world.

Perhaps the plane broke apart because it was in two different times simultaneously. The cockpit and fuselage went through first, which is why people in those sections experienced a different time interval than the tailies, who went through the rip last.
Big, I think you and Bri are onto something. I love it! It's the first I've seen of such an explanation for the "2 hours/6 hours" time discrepancy.

It might also explain how Ana-Lucia said that Goodwin came out of the jungle 10 minutes after the Tailies' crash, whereas Ben saw the plane break up in the air, after the "earthquake", and told Goodwin that he could make it in an hour if he ran.

I think that Time might have been rippling from the after-effects of the "earthquake", which was caused by the Time-Space fabric tear. So the Ana-Lucia/Ben time variances might be explained by time ripples....much like aftershocks of a "normal" earthquake...

If the above is true, then perhaps Gregg Nations had to try to throw us off track, with his comments about doubting Ana-Lucia's assessment of the timeframe.

Ha, yike-y. A time warp would also explain why they 'fell' virutally unhurt, the time period went forward a minute or so and by-passed the death-hitting impact and 'laid' the losties on the ground after the impact would have occured, thereby saving them.
100%
Ha, remember when Eko's 'Jesus stick' fell, looooong after the implosion? The time warp is right above the island. (Boy if that stick could talk!) (Waiting for the hairbrushes to fall.)

Yeah, I think that it seems more likely than the flight was tampered wtih versus there being two planes. I'm not saying that I think beyond a doubt that the flight was tampered with and the crash was faked somehow. I think that there was some tampering with the flight in that the plane was supposed to end up on the Island, but it wasn't supposed to crash. Then again, for me, I think that I want there to be some kind of tampering going on instead of the plane being a regular plane with a regular passengers' list and a regular crew that just happened to fly into a timewarp and end up on an Island that seems to have mystical powers and with a guy that seems to be a little mystical himself...I want the Losties to be special, too...

Ha, yike-y. A time warp would also explain why they 'fell' virutally unhurt, the time period went forward a minute or so and by-passed the death-hitting impact and 'laid' the losties on the ground after the impact would have occured, thereby saving them.
100%
Ha, remember when Eko's 'Jesus stick' fell, looooong after the implosion? The time warp is right above the island. (Boy if that stick could talk!) (Waiting for the hairbrushes to fall.)
I LOVE IT!!! :biggrin:

ETA It also gives another meaning to The Book Clubbers hanging on and bracing themselves during the "earthquake"...they might have been thinking "oh no, hold on, here we go again"...rippling through Time...

I still think The Others don't seem to have clocks and wear watches, and Juliet burned the muffins because Time doesn't flow consistently on The Island...

Ha, yike-y. A time warp would also explain why they 'fell' virutally unhurt, the time period went forward a minute or so and by-passed the death-hitting impact and 'laid' the losties on the ground after the impact would have occured, thereby saving them.
100%
Ha, remember when Eko's 'Jesus stick' fell, looooong after the implosion? The time warp is right above the island. (Boy if that stick could talk!) (Waiting for the hairbrushes to fall.)Why wouldn't time just skip to the time when the Losties died? Why would the timewarp happen just at the time that the Losties would have died versus another time, say five minutes later? Yeah, what was going on with the Jesus Stick? Did it really come from the sky? That's what it looked like...

Ha, remember when Eko's 'Jesus stick' fell, looooong after the implosion? The time warp is right above the island. (Boy if that stick could talk!) (Waiting for the hairbrushes to fall.)
Brilliant!

Why wouldn't time just skip to the time when the Losties died? Why would the timewarp happen just at the time that the Losties would have died versus another time, say five minutes later?
Well, they might be lucky...;) Or someone intervened on their behalf...;)

haha... you want me to imagine going through a rip in the fabric of time? I haven't done that since I was kid.

reminds me of a description i heard of a black hole on the daily show...pulling you through ...stretching you out. But very cool idea...could have effected desmond etc.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/handheld/30246.html

Damon's no time travel statement. (Someone else remembered this and now I can't remember who, from another thread.)

Still, as I said I'm leaning against this theory, just trying to reconcile the 2-hour flight that the Tailies experienced with the 6+ hour flight that the fuselage folk apparently had.

I think I just spent 20 proving that wrong. I created a map of what I think is pretty close to the usual flight plan and where the plane would have crashed using both the pilot and Ana lucia's version of events.

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/193399_lostflightplan.JPG.html

Resources:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/ (speeds gotten here)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0759496.html (distance from Sydney to LA)
http://kcm.co.kr/bethany/c_maps/fiji-1.gif (map of Fiji)
and http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/graphics/world.gif (map of the World)

NOTE: The places marked on the map are ESTIMATIONS, or ABOUT WHERE THE LOCATIONS WOULD BE ON A MAP (NOT EXACT).

The image quality is not the best due to the image hoster, and i'll try to replace it with a better quality image(if anyone has suggestions on a hoster, place tell me).

Anyway, hope this helps someone.

hmm thats an excellent map painki11er now you have me wondering what one heading in a westerly direction would look like

(greg grunbergs a liar!! and he can read your mind :biggrin:)

My guess is, the earthquake phenomena that struck the Other Village was a result of 815 hitting a time warp, fortunately, it was not the 'big one' and time got scrambled, but only in a very tiny time period in question, right before the 4:16 island time catch. No one and nothing was lost, (except for the hairbrushes), hence the fuselage section 'landing' with Charlie in that section and Cindy in the tail section, they didn't exactly mesh with time when they were pulled back through. (Not as bad as what happened in that Stephen King movie where the airplane hit a space rift...)

I was just thinking of that Stephen King movie and we all know what big fans TPTB are of Stephen King. I don't really remember it, except that it was bad. But I remember that it takes place on a plane and when they are finally able to land, they end up a little bit in the future and have to wait for "time" to catch up with them. What was the name of that movie anyway? Was it a book too?

I was just thinking of that Stephen King movie and we all know what big fans TPTB are of Stephen King. I don't really remember it, except that it was bad. But I remember that it takes place on a plane and when they are finally able to land, they end up a little bit in the future and have to wait for "time" to catch up with them. What was the name of that movie anyway? Was it a book too?
The Langoliers -- it's a novella and a film. I've always wondered if the Island was somehow quarantined "out of time," so to speak. That reminds me, has anyone read King's new book, Cell? There are ton of Lost references, including SYSTEM FAILURE in big bold letters on a computer screen.

The Langoliers -- it's a novella and a film. I've always wondered if the Island was somehow quarantined "out of time," so to speak. That reminds me, has anyone read King's new book, Cell? There are ton of Lost references, including SYSTEM FAILURE in big bold letters on a computer screen.

Ah yes, thank you. :) I actually haven't read any of King's books. :hide: But apparently TPTB and King are pretty good buddies now, so it makes sense that they keep putting easter eggs in each others work.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/handheld/30246.html

Damon's no time travel statement. (Someone else remembered this and now I can't remember who, from another thread.)


good find sam, but remember THEY did go back on their science fiction claim,,, i cant find thread right now but they are quoted that LOST is SCIENCE FICTION... i think clarency started a thread with the quote..

so things change.

in the quote they state that if they had said science fiction at the start, it would have narrowed their potential audience,,

all im saying is be careful of real old quotes

good find sam, but remember THEY did go back on their science fiction claim,,, i cant find thread right now but they are quoted that LOST is SCIENCE FICTION... i think clarency started a thread with the quote..

so things change.

in the quote they state that if they had said science fiction at the start, it would have narrowed their potential audience,,

all im saying is be careful of real old quotes
Yes, It was JJ and Damon about the sci-fi stuff but I guess we'll just have to "Wait, watch and see."

errr...another thing piled on topmittelos = lost time

Yeah, "lost time" is not necessarily time travel.

Yeah, "lost time" is not necessarily time travel.

Your alternate reality speculation awhile back is still a very strong choice on my list. Also Todell's Human Stash might have already happened. What did Christian say in the bar in Sydney " this is the closest place you can get to Hell".

Gregg Nations came back online this weekend... with a vengeance. Two posters over the last few months had made very detailed recountings of all the inconsistencies and contradictions regarding the flight time, the time of the crash and other time issues about Oceanic 815. Here's Gregg's response to Post 1 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67462):



And here's his response to Post 2 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=67400):



And there you go, 'Lagers! The gauntlet has been thrown. Can you figure it out?

(And I think it's a strong possibility there's a big piece of evidence we don't have yet.)

Could it be as simple as why the plane was not in the jet stream (35,000ft roughly) vs the relatively low alt. the plane was at when it broke up? I concede the magnet could be explained for some alt. drop - but to retain structural integrety it would not explain a drop of tens of thousands of feet.

Sorry if this was brought up already in this thread - missed it if it was :rolleyes:

The theory of two planes would only work if Lost is taking place in two or more realities/universes ( nottime continuums).

Both the tailies and fuselage survivors said they were on Oceanic 815. Two aircraft (in flight at the same time) can't have the same flight numbers.

ETA: I just finished reading all the posts. I guess I was a wee bit redundant:redface:

On the Sci-fi reference: If I remember correctly TPTB also said that Lost was science-fiction based on real science, or at least pseudo-science/theories.

The theory of two planes would only work if Lost is taking place in two or more realities/universes ( nottime continuums).

Both the tailies and fuselage survivors said they were on Oceanic 815. Two aircraft (in flight at the same time) can't have the same flight numbers.

ETA: I just finished reading all the posts. I guess I was a wee bit redundant:redface:

On the Sci-fi reference: If I remember correctly TPTB also said that Lost was science-fiction based on real science, or at least pseudo-science/theories.

It seems pretty clear to me that there was only one crash, that is, one terminal event. However, that doesn't mean there was only one initial event -- that is, takeoffs. There's probably an Oceanic Flight 815 taking off every day -- it's the route that gets the number, IIUC. What I was suggesting was something like a Hitchhiker's Guide Infinite Improbability Drive -- the system emergency event that Desmond accidentally triggered happened in one specific place, the Island, but it encompassed multiple times, so it affected ALL aircraft which were in that particular place over some length of time (or even all times, maybe)

The sequence is this: Oceanic Flight 815 from I think it would be Sept 22, 2004(?) -- which is Ana Lucia's flight -- takes off, and two hours later is over the Island. One year later, Jack's flight, Oceanic 815, takes off at 2:15 and 2 hours later is over the Island. The two planes are in the same physical location, separated by some period of time (about a year I think). What are the odds? Well if any plane is ever over that particular location, it would be an Oceanic Flight 815, wouldn't it? That's its route. Then ZAP -- the system failure, which sends a ripple through the space/time contiuum and causes both planes to get torn through some sort of wormwhole thingie, crashing them both (although at different rates -- Jack's plane takes 6 hours to "crash") and bringing them into the same space/time, the Island.

I don't know, it's a bit out there, and I don't think it's really well supported by the evidence we have, so actually I'm prepared to dismiss this idea, just wanted to fully develop it first.
100%
Yeah, "lost time" is not necessarily time travel.

I think this is a much more plausible concept than that 2 planes idea. Who suggested that nonsense anyway? Oh yeah it was me - sorry about that. :-)

We've seen examples of "lost time" throughout the series I think -- one case that I keep thinking of is how the nursery where Ethan took Claire was relatively shiny and new when she was there, but when they went back maybe a month later, probably less, it looked like it had been abandoned for years if not decades. Lost time?

So the application here would simply be that Ana Lucia "lost" the 6 hours between when she remembers being on the plane, and when it crashed.

Nice, simple solution -- I like it.

Here's my take on the lost time thing, I posted this in another thread too so rather than reword it I'll just copy & paste....

Does time pass differently on the island than off the island?

LINDELOF: That's a really perceptive question. We know that the Others taped the Red Sox win the World Series in 2004... so that would seem to indicate that time flows the same both on and off. But then again, when the sky turns purple and the ground shakes... wait. Hold on. Carlton is wringing my neck.

He seems to be implying that this lost time thing, whatever it is, is connected to a SYSTEM TERMINATION.

How many times has that happened?

It seems very unlikely, given the failsafe key detonated the anomaly, that it's ever happened before.

So if something is now funked with time on the island I'd say there is a good argument to be made that it's happened after the SYSTEM TERMINATION key was turned.

errr...another thing piled on topmittelos = lost time

Yeah, "lost time" is not necessarily time travel.

Ok, everyone seems to be on that "Lost Time" thing, but has anyone tried to find a reasonable anagram for the entire name "Mittelos bioscience"?

Here's the link for anagrams for Mittelos Bioscience...

http://www.lexigram.net/cgi-bin/agen.cgi?s=Mittelos%20bioscience&t=1000

Here's another site that creates words from the letters that you give it. I put in Mittelos Bioscience and it came up with some interesting words, including...

Telepathic...

http://www.easypeasy.com/anagrams/results.php

Mittelos Bioscience came up with this in the link Junie gave: cenobitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenobitic) eels is tom. Tom is the slippery one in the Others' community *L*.

It's OT, but I have to admit that I really like Tom. He was pretty funny when he had to be Jack's assistant during Ben's surgery. I would like to know how he got to the Island. Is he an old, retired military man? He is almost like an old Sawyer - very charming, entertaining, but can be intimidating if you don't know him that well...

Mittelos Bioscience came up with this in the link Junie gave: cenobitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenobitic) eels is tom. Tom is the slippery one in the Others' community *L*.

It's OT, but I have to admit that I really like Tom. He was pretty funny when he had to be Jack's assistant during Ben's surgery. I would like to know how he got to the Island. Is he an old, retired military man? He is almost like an old Sawyer - very charming, entertaining, but can be intimidating if you don't know him that well...

Ha, what better way to 'man' a secluded 'station' then with someone who has spent their life in a monastery!
I see the 'comm line' as a sort of umbilical cord to the island, perhaps KFZ was/is right about the space station?

not sure if it has any relevance or meaning but i thought it was worth pointing out

ben said to jack - "Your flight crashed on September 22nd, 2004. Today is November 29th. That means you've been on our island for 69 days and yes, we do have contact with the outside world, Jack. That's how we know that during those 69 days your fellow Americans re-elected George W. Bush; Christopher Reeve has passed away; the Boston Red Sox won the World Series"

the last of these things happened on november 4th ( George Bush re-elected )
which is only 44 days after september 22nd.

i doubt it's a clue but you never know ! - Lost Time, anyone :biggrin:

The theories that the plane crash was faked or there might be two planes was definitely proven wrong when we were shown the crash from Ben&co's perspective.
And the item the magician destroyed is the same item he made reappear?

I just realised why my map that i posted was in bad quality. You have to move the mouse wheel (the middle button) to zoom in and out, which makes it less blurry. Here's the link again:


http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php...tplan.JPG.html (http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/193399_lostflightplan.JPG.html)

Okay, nobody seems to have done this properly:

Okay, the time plane crashes will be:

flight_start + time_in_air = flight_crash

But the time moves through time zones, so we add on time zone difference:

flight_start + time_in_air + time_zone_difference = flight_crash

Time zone difference requires a little thought. We assume the plane flys in a straight line:

time_zone_difference = time_in_air*number_of_time_zones_crossed_per_hour

number_of_time_zones_crossed = speed*cos(theta*pi)/(40000/24)

Don't worry if you don't understand all this. The cosine is there because the number of time zones crossed is highly dependent on the heading the plane is flying at (note I am assuming that due east is 0, which is just to simplify thing - we can account for it later). (40000/24) is the width of a time zone in km.

Right, we have our full formula:

flight_start + time_in_air + time_in_air*speed*cos(heading*pi)/(40000/24) = flight_crash

I'm going to substitute these phrases for letters to make it clearer:

B + T + T*S*cos(H*p)/(40000/24) = C

The only unknown is H, the heading (I've got it here in radians, again, we'll worry about that later). So let us solve for H:

H = arccos[((C-B-T)*40000)/(T*S*24)]/p

I'm using the following values (time in hours, distance in kilometers - hours have been decimalised)

C = 4.25, B = 2.92, S = 990 (990kph is the cruising speed for a 777, again - this may not have been the case) (does not matter that times are not + 12)

Now, what is T (time of flight)? Either 2 or 6, depending on who you believe. Let us try both (I'll skip the calculations)

If T = 2, then the flight HAS TO HAVE FLOWN roughly 1980 kilometers from Sydney either at a heading of 214 degrees or 326 degrees. 214 would put you somewhere south of Australia - on the way to Antartica. Lame - that part of the ocean is totally empty. 326 would put you somewhere West of Cairns, in Australia. Also pretty lame.

But 326 is extremely close to the angle that's mentioned in the show isn't it?

But if T = 6, there is no solution. The flight time cannot possibly be 6 hours if the start/crash times we have are accurate.

Remember though, I'm assuming they flew in a straight line - which is not what the pilot said. Come to think about it, planes never fly in straight lines anyway (due to the curve of the earth). But with those flight times, it shouldn't make a huge difference - i.e., it wouldn't put us in the pacific.

In fact, the longest possible flight time is about 3 hours 15 minutes. This would put us on the west coast of Australia. Imagine an arc extending between the first two positions and this place - the plane could be somewhere along this line. I can't be bothered to work out the eastern limit.

These are slightly inaccurate, since time zones are not continuous.

To be honest, this probably doesn't tell us anything - I really don't think the developers sat down and worked this out. But the amount of blind speculation in this thread was staggering. AFIAK, nothing in the show takes place near these locations.

EDIT: Realised equation has two solutions for T = 2.

EDIT 2: Image is here (http://img.waffleimages.com/1f5e214eaec6a67078a090150fdab088d77d9f02/lost.png)

To be honest, this probably doesn't tell us anything - I really don't think the developers sat down and worked this out. But the amount of blind speculation in this thread was staggering. AFIAK, nothing in the show takes place near these locations.

EDIT: Realised equation has two solutions for T = 2.

EDIT 2: Image is here (http://img.waffleimages.com/1f5e214eaec6a67078a090150fdab088d77d9f02/lost.png)

Your calcs don't take into consideration that they may have flown in one direction and then turned back.

Your calcs don't take into consideration that they may have flown in one direction and then turned back.
for two hours no less

for some reason i dont think the missing perspective is trigonometry

All this math was done in the first season, many times, by many different people.

Yeah, "lost time" is not necessarily time travel.
I agree, but I'm not sure what TPTB consider time travel. If the "events" triggered some sort of time fold (tesseracts again!), would a jump in time be the same as time travel?
Imho they're different, but who knows? (I'm rarely right, I just enjoy the theorizing:biggrin:)

It's OT, but I have to admit that I really like Tom. He was pretty funny when he had to be Jack's assistant during Ben's surgery.
I like this other side of an Other that we're seeing, too! I wouldn't have guessed that Tom would have any endearing qualities, but I said above, I'm rarely right!:rolleyes:

I'm surprised this thread has died down considering the various references to time in NIP. I didn't see this in this thread yet, but there is the hidden audio in the brainwash scene, that is very clear and prominent that says: Only fools are enslaved by time and space.

audio file is here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1370019&postcount=1078