Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.

Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.
Good post, John. While I haven't quite gotten my mind around everything they showed tonight (I'm here reading & thinking instead of sleeping), you make some very good points. And i think your best one may be that so many of us refuse to take some things at face value, and forget about Occam's razor. Now if I could just cram my brain back into my skull and get some rest... :)

I just wanted to comment on the Time LOOP thing some people are mentioning.

There is no Time Loop

If it was a time Loop he wouldnt have asked to go back

Plus..if you think because they showed the scene where Charlie is asking him about the premonition and calling him a coward **again at the end--that is a Lost editing technique they use all the time. In fact, they did it in the prior episode with Jack in the operating room.(Kate RUN)-- Was that a loop too? They repeat scenes to highlite context all the time.

Desmond also made it clear that the flashes of the future are continuing. As he got another flash which caused him to run a mile to the beach to save charlie from going in the water. He said the flashes wont stop.

Its no Loop. He was knocked back in time ONCE..because he was next to the reactor when it overloaded--thats why he was naked(Terminator used as a reference to the audience to explain Time Travel has happened). He got flashs of his entire future life then --and continues to get them as events are changed

I just wanted to comment on the Time LOOP thing some people are mentioning.

There is no Time Loop



Be careful with that... I've beenc atching a lot of heat here by saying there's no loop. :)

On a different note, some people are saying that what Desmond experienced was a dream... that he never went back in time, he just had a vivid dream and maybe "the island" was talking to him through the old woman. What do you think about that?

Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time. They purposely created doubt in the story in order to debunk it. A device used all the time in dream sequences. Character hits his head--questions whether he is dreaming---seems to find proof..then events totally debunk that its not a dream. They did all that

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

About the idea that the *Island is on a loop. This is another case of leaping to conclusions that are not on the screen. This is a case of a person wanting to be creative..when thats the job of the actual writers

About the woman/monster implanting a dream. Well thats possible. But think about this logically--Is that what the episode tried to show us? NO..it showed us that he went back in time.

We shouldnt base opinions on the opposite of what they showed us --especially when the writers are in a stage of trying explain what is going on to viewers--some of which are getting bored with being stringed along as of late

Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time. They purposely created doubt in the story in order to debunk it. A device used all the time in dream sequences. Character hits his head--questions whether he is dreaming---seems to find proof..then events totally debunk that its not a dream. They did all that

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

About the idea that the *Island is on a loop. This is another case of leaping to conclusions that are not on the screen. This is a case of a person wanting to be creative..when thats the job of the actual writers

About the woman/monster implanting a dream. Well thats possible. But think about this logically--Is that what the episode tried to show us? NO..it showed us that he went back in time.

We shouldnt base opinions on the opposite of what they showed us --especially when the writers are in a stage of trying explain what is going on to viewers--some of which are getting bored with being stringed along as of late

I agree completely. If it was all a dream then the entire episode (or at least the parts off-island) become pretty meaningless. I don't think TPTB would waste a great long flashback like that for nothing.

I just want to know who that woman was. I wonder if we'll ever see her again.

I agree completely. If it was all a dream then the entire episode (or at least the parts off-island) become pretty meaningless. I don't think TPTB would waste a great long flashback like that for nothing.

I just want to know who that woman was. I wonder if we'll ever see her again.

No, it does not automatically become meaningless. For all we know, this dream sequence sould have been similar to what we have seen Eko, Locke, Claire, Hurley, Charlie, and Jack experience... something trying to manipulate them. The whole fate vs. free will debate is definitely a major theme of this show, and Ms. Hawking's conversation with Desmond was a great way to revisit this theme. Heck, if we are going by what "the writers want us to understand", didn't Desmond say that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"? That is the way he now interprets what happened to him once the failsafe key was turned. And now he is still seeing those flashes... why, no one knows. But psychic phenomena has been a subject on the show before... maybe now we will learn much more about it in the context of Lost.

If it were a dream, why would TPTB have put the easter egg in last week about not being enslaved by time and space. Clearly, something is going on with time and it's not what we would expect. I'm wondering whether all the flashbacks might be instances of people going off the island briefly, then returning. That might explain how Kate's horse ended up on the island, just like Desmond's picture.

No, it does not automatically become meaningless. For all we know, this dream sequence sould have been similar to what we have seen Eko, Locke, Claire, Hurley, Charlie, and Jack experience... something trying to manipulate them. The whole fate vs. free will debate is definitely a major theme of this show, and Ms. Hawking's conversation with Desmond was a great way to revisit this theme. Heck, if we are going by what "the writers want us to understand", didn't Desmond say that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"? That is the way he now interprets what happened to him once the failsafe key was turned. .

Your forgeting he says "send me back"..and just about everything else I just said.:)

This is what is happening. People are not remembering the episode exactly or they dont want to accept what they showed us. They clearly showed this was not a dream. You dont ask to get sent back to a dream so you can change that dream.

In fact the writers said before they episode "When is a flashback Not a flashback".. Damon also said . "It'll either blow people's minds or chase them away for good." . Now , do you really think a dream would do this?


You said--Desmond said that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"?

and then what does he say?

He says...and then I was back. Back in the Jungle.. here on this island.

Dont get stuck on the woman/entity. It surely seems like the monster/island because of what I said in the first post.. This part is not clearly spelled out like the time travel was though.

There are a huge number of possibilties. The entity could have been thrown back with desmond or may not be bound by Time and space at all in the first place. In any case, it could have taken the form of that woman to manipulate or teach Desmond.

What people seem to be missing is the woman had 2 messages--
Time cannot ultimately be changed.
And if the button is not pushed WE all will Die

One or both could be a lie. We dont know.
But we do know Desmond is given the Superman death paradox....save the girl or save the people. It seems like he weeps that we couldnt do either when he gets back

when Desmond gets back--he looks at the destroyed hatch and weeps --knowing the button can no longer be pushed--
Watch it again and look at his reaction to the hole where the hatch was. Its not clear to me if the woman and/or Desmond thought they could prevent the failsafe.

Its no Loop. He was knocked back in time ONCE.

I *think* I believe the time travel thing. But how could he have only gone back once?

First time -> Saw Charlie get struck by lightning

Which leads us to the second time back, because otherwise how would he have known Charlie had been killed by lightning?

Second time -> Saved Charlie from lightning and saw him drown
Third time (we see this one?) -> Saved Charlie from drowning and lightning.

But if this is true, then how did he go back after the first and second times, given that both were after the hatch implosion?

Or maybe Desmond doesn't actually know that Charlie would have died in both of those events... I don't know, just a possibility.

Hey

Its because there are 2 elements here...the flashes of the future and the time travel. He still gets the flashes.

--thats why he was naked(Terminator used as a reference to the audience to explain Time Travel has happened).

Okay, that's just hilarious.

Audience asks: "Well how do we know Desmond was time traveling?"
Answer: "Because he is naked, duh. Remember Terminator?"

How dumb of me to not understand the writer's clear explanation of the situation.

Did you see the flaming tire streaks of Desmond's Delorean? That's actually when it clicked for me.

[quote=John Burger;1380447]Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

quote]

That can be said to be equally true of the non- Time Loop camp! There is evidence (which I have mentioned in numerous threads) for both theories, no doubt intentionally because look at the debate it has sparked :biggrin: :biggrin:

Hey

Its because there are 2 elements here...the flashes of the future and the time travel. He still gets the flashes.

So then the flashes are completely unrelated to the time travel.

But then what was the point of the time travel... for him to learn that the course of nature shouldn't be changed?

Okay, that's just hilarious.

Audience asks: "Well how do we know Desmond was time traveling?"
Answer: "Because he is naked, duh. Remember Terminator?"

How dumb of me to not understand the writer's clear explanation of the situation.

Did you see the flaming tire streaks of Desmond's Delorean? That's actually when it clicked for me.

Its just a small piece of the puzzle. Its not dumb not to understand that writers use elements from other TTravel stories. This is very common in Sci-fi. Star Trek terms and happenings are the most commonly used.

It is quite puzzling, however, to reject something so blatently clear as desmond going back in time just because you dont want it to be so. All I can say is a lot of crow is going to be eaten here :)..because this isnt a theory. It was right on the screen as plain as day.

Yes, but how can you be so sure that whatever is going on is going to follow a rigid set of rules based on things that have happened in other dream sequences. It seems to me that by wanting this show to be different, that they would try to use similar devices in a new way, to create a new kind of experience for the viewers.



Logically? The show doesn't always follow what the viewer thinks is going to be logical. I think that what the show intended was that the island is in control of more than we know. It can control what they see and maybe even a little of what they think/remember.

I'm likin' what your saying John. I also believe there's something going on with Time, and that Desmond actually went back in time (whether physcially or mentally, I can't quite place it), and I certaintly don't believe in the time loop theory, in the way people are putting it across anyway (That the entire island, and everyone on it, has gone back in time and everything will now loop- ie. Dharma will arive, refurbish the hatches, Danielle will arrive with her team and kill them etc...).

I do think the issue of time will have more of an impact on the entire island and what's going on then just Desmond travelling back after turning the key and gaining pre-cognitive abilities, but again, I can't quite place what that might be. But I keep going back to the Adam & Eve skeletons and the possiblity that there 2 of the Losties (most likely Jack and Kate, after recently reading that Javi once gave a cryptic response where he indicated that Adam & Eve could very well be Jack and Kate... But again, that lends heavilly on the time loop theory, and I'm just not sold on that yet. Too many inconsitencies. If this is the first time it's looped, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have been there. If it's not the first time, shouldn't there be 2 of every person. At least. 2 Danielle's, 2 Juliet's etc...)

I'm likin' what your saying John. I also believe there's something going on with Time, and that Desmond actually went back in time (whether physcially or mentally, I can't quite place it), and I certaintly don't believe in the time loop theory, in the way people are putting it across anyway (That the entire island, and everyone on it, has gone back in time and everything will now loop- ie. Dharma will arive, refurbish the hatches, Danielle will arrive with her team and kill them etc...).

I do think the issue of time will have more of an impact on the entire island and what's going on then just Desmond travelling back after turning the key and gaining pre-cognitive abilities, but again, I can't quite place what that might be. But I keep going back to the Adam & Eve skeletons and the possiblity that there 2 of the Losties (most likely Jack and Kate, after recently reading that Javi once gave a cryptic response where he indicated that Adam & Eve could very well be Jack and Kate... But again, that lends heavilly on the time loop theory, and I'm just not sold on that yet. Too many inconsitencies. If this is the first time it's looped, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have been there. If it's not the first time, shouldn't there be 2 of every person. At least. 2 Danielle's, 2 Juliet's etc...)


No, you've got to think of the time loop like groundhog day except with people repeating their whole lives not just one day and generally having no real memory of previous loops. I think the explosion blew desmond out of the loop and back to a former bit of his life and because of this he retained flashed of his memory.
100%
consarnit! i dislike you. vincent!

:confused:

Its just a small piece of the puzzle. Its not dumb not to understand that writers use elements from other TTravel stories. This is very common in Sci-fi. Star Trek terms and happenings are the most commonly used.

It is quite puzzling, however, to reject something so blatently clear as desmond going back in time just because you dont want it to be so. All I can saw is a lot of crow is going to be eaten here..because this isnt a theory. It was right on the screen as plain as day.

LoL, I'm not rejecting anything. I never said he didn't time travel. But it definitely is NOT blatantly clear that he did. If you think the writer's wanted this to be blatantly clear that he time traveled, then WHY would they have him go unconscious and get hit in the head. Because that certainly sets the situation up to argue that he was just imagining what we saw. They made his concussions quite clear. They left time travel and imagination rather vague. We are to believe what we wish.

[QUOTE=Dark Angel;1380898]No, you've got to think of the time loop like groundhog day except with people repeating their whole lives not just one day and generally having no real memory of previous loops. I think the explosion blew desmond out of the loop and back to a former bit of his life and because of this he retained flashed of his memory.
100%/QUOTE]
Wait, let me see if I can get my head around it. Are you saying: there's a time loop happening on the island, and for everybody on it? So everybody on the island is simply re-living their life (without memory of having lived it) but the reason Desmond can see these "Flashes" is because when he turned the key, he was knocked out of THIS time loop (or iteration or whatever people have been calling it) and since he came back, he's still getting glimpses of the other time loops (or iterations)?

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

What makes it very difficult to accept that Desmond actually went back for a second chance is Ms. Hawking. It is very weird and surreal and very Smokey-like (Yemi and Christian's on-island appearences, for example) that she knows it all about him and everything around him and the future.

The other aspect is: if the Failsafe and the implosion sent him to the past for his second chance, how being hit by a bat could have got him back to the present?

I really, really wanted him to have returned and relived the WHOLE period until the failsafe key. But his "return" was interrupted by a bat? How ridiculous is that? Waking up after being hit in his vision is a huge clue that it was all in his mind (lucid dream, if you will).

Nice debate, by the way. :D

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

Yeah sort of, I think the show is about redemption, all the characters have been given the opportunity to relive their lives over and over until they get it right. It's all kind of Buddhist (which fits in with the show) . Some characters might find redemption very quickly whilst others may never get there just making the same mistakes over and over again

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

This is something interesting...if the losties destinies lie 'on the island', does it mean they'll never leave? When put like this, it sounds like the island is the end of the road.

What makes it very difficult to accept that Desmond actually went back for a second chance is Ms. Hawking. It is very weird and surreal and very Smokey-like (Yemi and Christian's on-island appearences, for example) that she knows it all about him and everything around him and the future.

The other aspect is: if the Failsafe and the implosion sent him to the past for his second chance, how being hit by a bat could have got him back to the present?

I really, really wanted him to have returned and relived the WHOLE period until the failsafe key. But his "return" was interrupted by a bat? How ridiculous is that? Waking up after being hit in his vision is a huge clue that it was all in his mind (lucid dream, if you will).

Nice debate, by the way. :D


I think Desmond was only thrown back into his past momentarily, maybe his concious thought held him there and when it was broken (by the Cricket Bat) that he snapped back to the correct time.

I think with Mrs Hawkins we don't know enough to figure out who she is yet.

Yeah sort of, I think the show is about redemption, all the characters have been given the opportunity to relive their lives over and over until they get it right. It's all kind of Buddhist (which fits in with the show) . Some characters might find redemption very quickly whilst others may never get there just making the same mistakes over and over again
So just running along with this time loop theory and throwing a few things out there (which may make it seem like I'm not following you at all, but you know :biggrin: )

If they are re-living their lives (flashbacks) and have the opportunity to redeem themselves, what happens if they do? Aren't they "destined" to end up on the island anyway, as the lady said, the universe will find a way of putting them on the island (correcting them if they change their path). So if Kate, for example, didnt blow up her dad and wasn't on the run (and thus not on the plane), somehow she would end up on the island, no? Does the fact that she has now re-deemed herself in her past life (that she has re-lived and changed/redeemed) change anything.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

And another thing, with the time loop, does every LOOP (or iteration) over-lap one another. For example, will Dharma see the hatches they already built when they arrive to the island (if the time loop goes back to before Dharma arrived)? I think that complicates matters (to me anyways). Using Danielle as an example, she arrives once, and if the Time Loop over-laps, then shouldn't she see herself when she arrives again?

Sorry mate. I suppose this is the reason why I'm struggling to believe in the time loop theory. It's just not clicking. But right now, I think that's the point. It'll all come clearer in the future.

Nice discussion though.

I think Desmond did time travel - witness the first scenes of his "flashback" when he clearly was puzzled as to why he was back with Penny. That's why he touched her face and said " you're here" or something like that. He actually looked rather astonished; it was also clear to me that although Desmond was in his past, he had the consciousness of future Desmond, like he knew that he was reliving things over again. Just the looks on his face.......great acting by HIC. This time travel was imperfect, however, as he lost some of his memories -he knew he knew Charlie, but he couldn't remember where. He also mistook the date on which the soccer team made their miraculous comeback...........nonetheless, I think he did go back in time.

The original post still confuses me,though - as do most posts regarding the time travel/time loop issue...I feel like a bit of a dummy, having to reread posts over and over again to be sure I'm understanding things. Nonetheless, I am enjoying this Lost puzzle ; not many shows make you think anymore.

OK,

I'll try to explain.

The survivors are reliving their whole lives over and over again, they are born, live for the span of their lives and then start again back at the beginning. There is no duplication of bodies etc as they are reliving their lives again - nothing physical travels back in time - just their minds/souls etc. - like Groundhog day - except they don't remember. Its an eternal cycle of death and rebirth - this was what the Ouboros (the broach Mrs Hawkins was wearing) symbolizes. Being reborn they don't rememer the last loop but each time round things start to get more familiar so they might get flashed of inspiration, things seem familiar and this enables them to avoid making the same mistakes. It seems however Desmond was blown back ito a previous part of his life by the hatch explosion and as such can remember flashes from his previous lives.

Just to make it clear the flashbacks we have seen (excluding Desmond in FBYE) are just that, memories of what happened years earlier

So what happens when they are finally redeemed - well that probably depends on your own religious beliefs ;)

OK,

I'll try to explain.

The survivors are reliving their whole lives over and over again, they are born, live for the span of their lives and then start again back at the beginning. There is no duplication of bodies etc as they are reliving their lives again - nothing physical travels back in time - just their minds/souls etc. - like Groundhog day - except they don't remember. Its an eternal cycle of death and rebirth - this was what the Ouboros (the broach Mrs Hawkins was wearing) symbolizes. Being reborn they don't rememer the last loop but each time round things start to get more familiar so they might get flashed of inspiration, things seem familiar and this enables them to avoid making the same mistakes. It seems however Desmond was blown back ito a previous part of his life by the hatch explosion and as such can remember flashes from his previous lives.

Just to make it clear the flashbacks we have seen (excluding Desmond in FBYE) are just that, memories of what happened years earlier

So what happens when they are finally redeemed - well that probably depends on your own religious beliefs ;)
I think I'm finally starting to follow you now! :cool:

And if I'm not mistaken, what you just said is very similar to what Stephen Hawkings talks about in A Brief History of Time (from what I read from another poster in another thread, I wouldn't actually know).

With the Lost Time anagram, Stephen Hawkings book showing up, and the backwards message on that trippy mind-control movie that says "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from last eppy; and the whole time-travel issue with Desmond this eppy and the lady being name Ms Hawking ... Well, don't mistake co-incidence for fate, eh?

Quickly scanning these posts there are 3 theories:
1). Time travel
2). Time loop
3). Dream
The dream theory is the weakest of all for a number of reasons. It doesn't serve to answers any questions - and the writers want to give us answers, rather than draw this out any more. That has been stated in previous posts. If it was a dream - what events were historical fact and what were influenced by what he experienced on the island? Meeting with Widmore? The ring lady? The bar scenes? The discussion with Donovan about time travel? Accosting Charlie? The references to the island throughout (picture in Widmore's office, microwave sound, etc.)? Isn't it a stretch to think that Desmond merely dreamt all this while coincidentally (but unknown to him at the time) interacting with the very person who may be involved with the Island (Widmore and the Hanso Foundation)? Doesn't make sense.

I think I'm finally starting to follow you now! :cool:

Brilliant, I've got to do a podcast on this later :biggrin:



And if I'm not mistaken, what you just said is very similar to what Stephen Hawkings talks about in A Brief History of Time (from what I read from another poster in another thread, I wouldn't actually know).

With the Lost Time anagram, Stephen Hawkings book showing up, and the backwards message on that trippy mind-control movie that says "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from last eppy; and the whole time-travel issue with Desmond this eppy and the lady being name Ms Hawking ... Well, don't mistake co-incidence for fate, eh?

Exactly :)

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. .

No I think it's a great theory, it reminds me of Billy Pilgrim in Slaughter House 5, or a book I read by Fred Hoyle (who was an eminent physicist and novelist).

I think however you might have difficulty explaining it to those without a physics background, you analogy was good though

Oh and WELCOME TO THE FUSELAGE :biggrin:

Thanks. That was the only way I could come up with that would allow for Desmond to have flashes of the future, which as far as we know, he has never lived.

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life.

Exactly!!! But... read about David Hume's Theories think of the implications of that sort of foresight! Could that foresight be used to split time off from itself? To make it diverge from the original outcome? I try to explain it here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1381160&postcount=32. I say to forget the "Time Loop Theory", but that doesn't mean I don't see some great things about it (especially those mentioned in this thread).

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.
:blowup:

Never mind the emoticon, excellent first post!

And while I haven't read Hawkings book, what I have read from other posters who have, your theory works very nicely.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.

What if she's doing/done the same thing as Desmond? What if she actually knows how to control it?

Quickly scanning these posts there are 3 theories:
1). Time travel
2). Time loop
3). Dream
The dream theory is the weakest of all for a number of reasons. It doesn't serve to answers any questions - and the writers want to give us answers, rather than draw this out any more. That has been stated in previous posts. If it was a dream - what events were historical fact and what were influenced by what he experienced on the island? Meeting with Widmore? The ring lady? The bar scenes? The discussion with Donovan about time travel? Accosting Charlie? The references to the island throughout (picture in Widmore's office, microwave sound, etc.)? Isn't it a stretch to think that Desmond merely dreamt all this while coincidentally (but unknown to him at the time) interacting with the very person who may be involved with the Island (Widmore and the Hanso Foundation)? Doesn't make sense.

The time travel explanation is the weakest because it just doesn't work that way. If time travel were possible and you went back... you'd be there. There's no rewind button where you live it over again that makes no sense. His mind got transported to an earlier point in his life? They've had some doozies on this show but that's beyond farfetched. You can be induced to recreate a past memory IN YOUR MIND. This nonsense about your mind getting thrown back is so far off course. It just doesn't make sense and it would be a lofty idea on the writer's part's.

I think there are two possibilities.

1) He DID time travel. If that's the case, then I think the "failsafe" works as a sort of "do-over" that sends the user back in time to try and alter the events that led up to its being used. But the Island/Fate intervened and sent him back because what he was doing was so important.

2) If he DIDN'T time travel, then I don't think it was a dream. I think it was a vision from the Island. And I think the whole point was to convince him that he couldn't use his ability to see the future to change it. How? By taking him back to the one thing he most desperately wishes he could change and making him unable to change it. And the only reason I can think of why the Island would want him to think that is if he CAN change things, but the Island doesn't want him to.

The time travel explanation is the weakest because it just doesn't work that way. If time travel were possible and you went back... you'd be there. There's no rewind button where you live it over again that makes no sense. His mind got transported to an earlier point in his life? They've had some doozies on this show but that's beyond farfetched. You can be induced to recreate a past memory IN YOUR MIND. This nonsense about your mind getting thrown back is so far off course. It just doesn't make sense and it would be a lofty idea on the writer's part's.

i'm not intending to be rude, but where did the "rules" for time travel originate? is there canon when it comes to time travel? i understand that other books, movies, comics, etc. have leaned on a few accepted rules...but, maybe LOST is redefining the boundaries of it. that's what it's all about, right? encouraging outside-the-box thinking? creating truly orignial television? and, consequently, blow our minds?

it's just that, because time travel, IMO, is far-fetched, i find it silly to quickly dismiss someone else's theories becuase they don't fit into the accepted definition.

“Woman was the Island, Flashbacks are memories, Desmond did Time Travel”
That starts with the assumption that this was a flashback not a dream or alcoholic hallucination. It also assumes memories are accurate not subjective in order to conclude time travel happened.
1. If flashbacks are memories why would Desmond remember the island as a woman? In a dream that makes sense but as a memory shouldn‘t an island have been remembered as an island?
2. If Desmond did time travel then the woman he met at the jewelry store would have been in the past and should not have had memories of the future or do we say she is also a time traveler? Do we say she has the power to view the future? If she is the island inserting her view of events into his mind, then wouldn't that blow the time travel theory and make this a mind manipulation episode?

Did the PTB have Desmond time travel and set up an alternate past only to have the flow of time remerge his alterative into the mainstream? Wouldn’t that mean they are saying you can change the past but not the future? Umm isn’t that the opposite of what we see in reality and in most scientific theories? Butchering Chaos theory here but If a butterfly flaps its wings you eventually get a storm in the future in a distant location - Are we now seeing a theory that if you time travel to the past and swat the butterfly before it can flap, you still get the storm. So the past has no meaning?

I don’t see time travel. Instead I see: stressed out Desmond gets drunk and escapes into a dream about what might have been only to have the dream turn into a nightmare where he wakes up still in the same stressful situation.


Do any of the threads on this come up with a theory that Desmond somehow connected with another version of himself in an alternate universe where events followed another pattern?

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.
Good first post, Atticus. While I'm not on the time travel bandwagon, IMO, your ideas are much more likely than any of the crazy time-loop ideas being put forward. Personally, I think the ring lady was a manifestation of the Island/Smokey (think Eko/Yemi, Kate/horse, Jack/Jack's dad, Locke's visions) and may indicate that he didn't physically travel. Either way, she is certainly an enigma!
100%
i'm not intending to be rude, but where did the "rules" for time travel originate? is there canon when it comes to time travel? i understand that other books, movies, comics, etc. have leaned on a few accepted rules...but, maybe LOST is redefining the boundaries of it. that's what it's all about, right? encouraging outside-the-box thinking? creating truly orignial television? and, consequently, blow our minds?

it's just that, because time travel, IMO, is far-fetched, i find it silly to quickly dismiss someone else's theories becuase they don't fit into the accepted definition.
If--and this is admittedly a HUGE "if" at this point--but if we take the producers/creators' statements that the show was not going to be science fiction but would be based around "science or pseudo-science" (they also said at one point they they weren't going to do time travel, but who knows if they've changed their minds, it's certainly their prerogative) than I would tend to think they wouldn't go the time-travel route. If they are indeed looking to at least pay attention to plausible science, then the "rules" (ie, physics, Einstein's relativity) say that time travel to the future is theoretically possible (as one approaches the speed of light, time slows relative to someone remaining stationary--see the "twin paradox) but going back in time is scientifically impossible. Of course, it seems like the story is already playing loose with science (it looks like there is certainly some kind of time anomaly/dilation/distortion at some point), but time travel to the past would be a pretty blatant violation of physics, and I don't know that they would go to that extent. But who knows anymore!

I wonder if maybe this wasn't more of a "glimpse" than anything else.. sort of like "The Family Man". Desmond seemed, to me anyway, to be surprised at waking up in his flat, he said it straight out, "This is my flat!" Maybe Desmond was given the chance to "re-play" the game of his life starting from the red paint spill... and so he tried other things like asking Widmore's permission to marry Pen at the job interview. Because somehow I just don't think he would have done that the first time.

John - I think you're right. The writer's made it pretty clear that Desmond did go back in time. I think the implicaitons of this episode are huge, and a lot of people are trying to explain away these implications with the dream theory.

This is just like thinking that Alex is Ben's biological daughter. She obviously was just raised by him, but people want to believe otherwise, because... I don't know

G33K3Z01D - I agree that only his consciousness going back in time is a very improbable way of time-traveling, which itself is implausible.. but I think my suspension of disbelief can compensate

Atticus - I like your idea - Desmonds' time travel to the past does not explain his prescience about the future; having him experience existence at all times simultaneously reconciles the two.

but if we take the producers/creators' statements that the show was not going to be science fiction but would be based around "science or pseudo-science" Science fiction is fiction based on science or pseudo-science. Hard sci-fi often uses good science and soft sci-fi often uses pseudo-science. So the statement that the show will not be science fiction but will instead be fiction based on science or pseudo-science doesn't make sense to me.

The writer's made it pretty clear that Desmond did go back in time.Well that explains why so many people support the dream theory, they just can't see clearly. LOL I wear glasses so I can see clearly and I support the dream theory. I also feel the time theorists are the ones who don't clearly see the writer's obvious intent.;)

LoL, I'm not rejecting anything. I never said he didn't time travel. But it definitely is NOT blatantly clear that he did. If you think the writer's wanted this to be blatantly clear that he time traveled, then WHY would they have him go unconscious and get hit in the head. Because that certainly sets the situation up to argue that he was just imagining what we saw. They made his concussions quite clear. They left time travel and imagination rather vague. We are to believe what we wish.

Hey Kevn

You didnt read my post. I explained that

" Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious"

I dont know how many movies you have seen but someone getting a bang on the head and then questioning whether its a dream or real has been done about 200 times in the last 70 years. Its a writing device to make you wonder WHILE your watching. Did you keep watching till the end? Because like almost all such devices..they answered it in the end.

Hey Kevn

You didnt read my post. I explained that

" Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious"

I dont know how many movies you have seen but someone getting a bang on the head and then questioning whether its a dream or real has been done about 200 times in the last 70 years. Its a writing device to make you wonder WHILE your watching. Did you keep watching till the end? Because like almost all such devices..they answered it in the end.



Sorry I just would love to meet the cricket bat that doubles as a time machine. Please knock me in the head with it so I may wake up in another time.

We saw nothing that transported Desmond from one time to another. What we were shown was something that flipped his consciousness. I therefore cannot reject the explanation of it being Desmond's imagination.

Sorry I just would love to meet the cricket bat that doubles as a time machine. Please knock me in the head with it so I may wake up in another time.

We saw nothing that transported Desmond from one time to another. What we were shown was something that flipped his consciousness. I therefore cannot reject the explanation of it being Desmond's imagination.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.

His mind is the time machine, not the cricket bat.

Science fiction is fiction based on science or pseudo-science. Hard sci-fi often uses good science and soft sci-fi often uses pseudo-science. So the statement that the show will not be science fiction but will instead be fiction based on science or pseudo-science doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I guess that sounds pretty ridiculous, LOL! :redface: I guess I stated that pretty poorly, allow me a second attempt? I should search and find the quote... but it was to the effect that the story would be explainable within the bounds of science and/or pseudo-science, that it wouldn't violate known science. Now of course, we already know that there are things that--at least so far, without the final chapters of the story being revealed--certainly do not appear to be backed up by sound science. But with time travel to the past being a clear violation of physics, I'm inclined to think they wouldn't go there--even if not real science, it would be difficult to pass off as pseudo-science because of that.

but it was to the effect that the story would be explainable within the bounds of science and/or pseudo-science, that it wouldn't violate known science.

Pseudo-science does violate known science... if it didn't then it's just be "science" and not "pseudo", right?

TPTB have since gone on the record and stated that "Lost" is science fiction, and that they were trying to hide that at first. But, a mind-reading monster comprised of smoke, a Scotsman who repeatedly sees the future and a teleporting Walt kind of throw all that out the window. There's no way to explain all of this without veering into pretty Heavy sci-fi, it's just a matter of When they choose to lift the veil.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.
I realize I'm seeking speculation here, but if Desmond had lived through it all before, and Ms Hawking was indeed real... why do you guys think he would stay in the hatch pushing the button for three long years, knowing he's going to "blow the dam" in the end? If he's done it before, he knows it's inevitable, and Ms Hawking told him it was his destiny to turn the key. Why put himself through those years of isolation and torture, instead of accomplishing the task more immediately?

Actually, this would open up other questions too... when he killed Kelvin, we saw that it was an accident. If he's repeating the loop, would he kill him again? Would he continue to be duped by Kelvin about the quarantine every time through? (I hope I don't read like I'm being argumentative, just intrigued by the possibilities and enjoying the debate.)

I realize I'm seeking speculation here, but if Desmond had lived through it all before, and Ms Hawking was indeed real... why do you guys think he would stay in the hatch pushing the button for three long years, knowing he's going to "blow the dam" in the end? If he's done it before, he knows it's inevitable, and Ms Hawking told him it was his destiny to turn the key. Why put himself through those years of isolation and torture, instead of accomplishing the task more immediately?

Actually, this would open up other questions too... when he killed Kelvin, we saw that it was an accident. If he's repeating the loop, would he kill him again? Would he continue to be duped by Kelvin about the quarantine every time through? (I hope I don't read like I'm being argumentative, just intrigued by the possibilities and enjoying the debate.)

This was inevitable I guess.
I noticed in one of your other posts that you were "anti-time loop" and I figured that you'd think I was in favor of it...
I don't think there is a time loop that's going on. I think that Des had an incident where he saw backwards in time, and then after he got hit with the bat, came back to the island and now has "flashes" of the future. That's it. I don't think that he's living a "loop" over and over again (and in fact, your points are very good and I shall bring them up in the other threads where I am discussing why there can be no "loop".)

So, I think that if he had a loop, it was when the Hatch blew, and he's out of it now.

This was inevitable I guess.
I noticed in one of your other posts that you were "anti-time loop" and I figured that you'd think I was in favor of it...
I don't think there is a time loop that's going on. I think that Des had an incident where he saw backwards in time, and then after he got hit with the bat, came back to the island and now has "flashes" of the future. That's it. I don't think that he's living a "loop" over and over again (and in fact, your points are very good and I shall bring them up in the other threads where I am discussing why there can be no "loop".)

So, I think that if he had a loop, it was when the Hatch blew, and he's out of it now.
You are correct, I misunderstood your position--thanks for clarifying that. I can stomach your idea much easier than the repeating loops. Though I'm still leaning heavily the other way due to the surreal elements (and the Wizard of Oz parallels--specifically Dorothy getting knocked on the head, and waking up to find it was just a fantasy) in the flashback/time-travel, but I could see them going in the direction you describe. And they have certainly made enough references to the time issue for a Desmond trip to the past to be a feasible plotline.
100%
Pseudo-science does violate known science... if it didn't then it's just be "science" and not "pseudo", right?

TPTB have since gone on the record and stated that "Lost" is science fiction, and that they were trying to hide that at first. But, a mind-reading monster comprised of smoke, a Scotsman who repeatedly sees the future and a teleporting Walt kind of throw all that out the window. There's no way to explain all of this without veering into pretty Heavy sci-fi, it's just a matter of When they choose to lift the veil.
I should probably just shut about about the 'based on science' comments by now... ;) I'll probably just dig my hole deeper, but I would have put time travel to the past into the anti-science category, not pseudo-science, viewing things through the lens of the show being science/pseudo-science based.

I wasn't at all aware that TPTB had made opened the scifi door, I completely missed or overlooked that. Mind you, I'm not at all anti-scifi, but I was operating under the prior assumption. And being an accountant, I tend to be a wee bit on the analytical side, it's in my nature...

...but I would have put time travel to the past into the anti-science category, not pseudo-science, viewing things through the lens of the show being science/pseudo-science based.


Basically, none of these "rules" are set in stone... so, is telepathy "pseudo-science" or "science fiction"? Telekinesis? Time travel? Aliens? It's just too hard to judge. I guess all that matters is they are going to use some elements that don't exist in "science" as we know it today. How far "over the line" something is is purely in the eye of the beholder. Me, I'm like you... moving back and forth in time in your mind is fine... time Machine? No.

So, in the end we'll just have to wait and see where TPTB put the line and see how many people it turns away.

Basically, none of these "rules" are set in stone... so, is telepathy "pseudo-science" or "science fiction"? Telekinesis? Time travel? Aliens? It's just too hard to judge. I guess all that matters is they are going to use some elements that don't exist in "science" as we know it today. How far "over the line" something is is purely in the eye of the beholder. Me, I'm like you... moving back and forth in time in your mind is fine... time Machine? No.

So, in the end we'll just have to wait and see where TPTB put the line and see how many people it turns away.
Either way, I think TPTB and the writers are brilliant in how they leave these things so wide open, leaving easter eggs that point to several possibilities. As frustrating as it can be to not get the "answers", they have been remarkably good at generating controversy like this... it's good to see that three years in they still have the ability to do this and to keep the story fresh. This is the kind of stuff that sucked me into Lost, and I love it.

Funny thing... my younger brother got me started on Lost. I tend to think too much TV is a bad thing, and for a few years post-college didn't even own one. I only watch a few shows regularly...currently Lost, 24, The Office. Still mourning the hastened departure of Arrested Development... So I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon with a new show, and wasn't going to get roped into Lost. The first episode I actually saw was Exodus! So then I was in and following Season 2 until the S1 DVDs let me catch up. I'm still kicking myself because I wasn't able to watch the mysteries unfold from the beginning, and knew some of the stories and twists before seeing the foundation laid for them. I think the Lost pilot might be some of the most compelling, revolutionary television I've ever seen, and I didn't get the chance to experience it until I had already seen them hanging out in the hatch!

And now that I'm hooked, my brother has fallen off the bandwagon (this is the same kid who proudly brags that he hasn't read a book since graduating college, so... the complex storylines wore him down and the long fall hiatus did him in, apparently.) I think it's an absolute travesty that he's lost interest, but if he wouldn't have badgered me into watching it, I'd still be missing out.

I am with this theory. The Old Woman is definitely The Island(or Smokey) :scared:

We don't know for sure what happened.

However, at this point, which is more likely?

A) Desmond gets knocked unconscious and has a long dream, which explains how the woman knows so much about him and the island (because it's really him just thinking about it), and seeing Charlie and knowing about him (because he knows him from the island), and hearing 4,8,15 and remembering them (because he remembers from the island), and general feelings of remembering stuff that have happened before in his normal life, because he is just reliving it in his head.

Or

B) He travels back in time. The claim that it must be time travel because he is naked is flawed because he is not naked when he goes 'back in time'. He wakes up wearing whatever he was wearing at the time.

Certainly, Desmond believes he has travelled in time. I think the notion of time travel is pretty far-fetched, and it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing the writers would do, from what they've said about the show before. Seems too cheesy. There's so many holes in any time travel idea (if you really do 'travel back in time', then you wouldn't have the memories of the future, because at the time in the 'past' you would only have your past memories ETC).

I wouldn't say for sure though, like I said, we don't really know one way or the other. It just seems more likely to me that Des just had this strange dream experience.

There are still more questions; how did he survive the implosion? How did he get his power of premonition? It could be argued that if he travelled in time, it would explain how he survived the implosion. But Eko and John and Charlie all survived it too, did the all travel in time? It seems like they didn't, so it seems that you can survive an implosion without time travelling. And time travel doesn't explain how he got his powers particularly well. I think future answers will be necessary to untangle all this, there's still key pieces of info missing to us.

I think it's possible that somebody or some thing was talking to him in his dream state, 'the island' or 'smokey' or whatever, who knows, giving him suggestion. He as given the power to see the future in smal ways, I imagine it was triggered some how by some one.

Long thread, read it to the fourth page...

There's one thing speaking against time travel: CHARLIE.

In REAL time (before they all went to the island, not in Desmonds dream/time travel) everything we saw in Desmonds dream happened, we all can agree on that, eh? So he fell down a ladder, went to mr. Widmore, went to buy a ring but changed his mind, saw Charlie playing on the street but didn't recognize him then (probably also not even thinking about him, maybe putting a dollar in his guitar case), taking the pic with Penny, going to the bar, going to race around the world, ending up on the island and so on.

Now, if he would have gone back in time when the hatch imploded, he would have changed a lot of these things. He spoke to mrs. Hawkings (after WANTING to buy the ring), he made a fool of himself at the bar (the first time), but most important of all, HE SPOKE TO CHARLIE ABOUT THE ISLAND!

Logically, if you go back in time and change stuff, the future is changed, in this case that would mean that Charlie would have a memory of Desmond, buried deep inside his mind. It doesn't pop up when the plane crashes on the Island, but IT REALLY SHOULD RING A BELL when he is down in the hatch with Desmond, the hatch exploding, having to press a button, SEEING DESMOND. Charlie really should remember all this. Some people on this board say that it's the heroin. Nah, I don't think so.

Well, of course if Desmond altered the future WHEN he traveled, Charlie wouldn't remember him BEFORE the hatch imploded, but instantly after Desmond spoke to him in his journey through time, Charlie should get a memory of Desmond.

If you are not convinced, let's look at when Jack met Desmond. That was small. Didn't mean anything. Jack was just running at the stadium, and met some other dude also running. Fairly normal, nothing big. Still, JACK REMEMBERED DESMOND WHEN HE SAW HIM! When Desmond said one of his "Brother" sentences, even that rang a bell for Jack!

So IF Desmond really went back in time, and spoke to Charlie, thus altering the future ("implanting" a memory in Charlies mind) Charlie should remember him on the beach in this weeks episode. I don't believe in the time travel, and there's lots of ways for the dream to answer questions without it being a travel back in time.

Long post, thanks for reading.

Logically, if you go back in time and change stuff, the future is changed, in this case that would mean that Charlie would have a memory of Desmond, buried deep inside his mind. It doesn't pop up when the plane crashes on the Island, but IT REALLY SHOULD RING A BELL when he is down in the hatch with Desmond, the hatch exploding, having to press a button, SEEING DESMOND. Charlie really should remember all this. Some people on this board say that it's the heroin. Nah, I don't think so.

good point!!!!

It seems to me that there is a strong temptation to apply rules of "time travel" and "time loops" a bit too rigidly. TPTB have given us strong evidence for the fluidity of the space/time continuum. There have been 2 major references to Stephen Hawking's work. It makes sense that the writers would plant alternative possibilities (dream, altered memories, crack to the melon) so that we could play at this, but the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Desmond and Ms. Hawking has become more consciously mobile and in touch with the fluidity of time.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.


Want to know what makes more sense? replacing "time travel' with imagination.

Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.

I have to agree with you, at the moment it's the only thing that makes sense and the old lady reminded me of Smokey in Yemi's form too. Great episode.

He travels back in time. The claim that it must be time travel because he is naked is flawed because he is not naked when he goes 'back in time'. He wakes up wearing whatever he was wearing at the time.
Excellent point, and one that hadn't even hit me!

Certainly, Desmond believes he has travelled in time.I'm in agreement with you that it wasn't time travel, but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us:
When I turned that key...my life...flashed before my eyes. And then I was back in the jungle. Still on this bloody island. But those flashes, Charlie? Those flashes...they didn't stop.100%
It seems to me that there is a strong temptation to apply rules of "time travel" and "time loops" a bit too rigidly. TPTB have given us strong evidence for the fluidity of the space/time continuum. There have been 2 major references to Stephen Hawking's work. It makes sense that the writers would plant alternative possibilities (dream, altered memories, crack to the melon) so that we could play at this, but the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Desmond and Ms. Hawking has become more consciously mobile and in touch with the fluidity of time.
I think they will definitely be going somewhere with all the time references... some kind of time dilation or with island time somehow behaving differently, which are all pointed to by the Hawking allusions. Somebody even posted the page of Hawking's book that Aldo was reading, it was about black holes and event horizons, I don't know that there is anything in there about time travel of the sort people are claiming Desmond did. Hawking would have a good laugh.

The thing is, in order to accept that Desmond traveled back in time, there there are just so many bizarre things we have to accept. How can Charlie not remember their meeting, as mentioned by a few posters on the last few pages? Certainly when he sees him in the hatch, he would recall that! Jack remembered Des, and they only ran into each other on the steps. In addition to that, based on the time frame they showed us, there's an age issue: Charlie was likely still in high school at the time of Desmond's flashback, it looked to me like they showed us the current-island Charlie. You've got Tom's painting in Widmore's office... the painting that Tom had in Claire's flashback when she was pregnant (2004), but Des has been on the island since 2001, since this island was pre-army and prison for Desmond, it took place a few years before that. You've got the blinking poster. The time not changing on Big Ben and the clocks in the jewelry store. And so on... I still believe they were telegraphing to us, "this isn't reality, people..."

And a clue that I feel they just about tried to hit us over the head with, the Wizard of Oz reference with the red shoes. What happened to Dorothy? Took a hit on the noggin and lived a whole fantasy episode in her head, then woke up in her own bed with the people she saw in her vision all around her. Desmond said it all, his life flashed before his eyes, and he woke up, still in the jungle...

To believe he time traveled, IMO, requires accepting that Desmond's time in London in the late 90's was more like some kind of twilight zone than reality...

Either way, I think TPTB and the writers are brilliant in how they leave these things so wide open, leaving easter eggs that point to several possibilities.
Exactly.
None of these hypotheses are "obviously" correct. That would only be the case if the writers had screwed up, and I don't think that is likely. They want us to think "OK, I understand now. Its ..." and then ten minutes later think "BUT WAIT A MINUTE! That can't be right!"

My take on it is this: none of the writers or producers have a science background, so you can forget the objection "that explanation can't be right: it's not scientific". They clearly are fans of scifi, however, so anything in the scifi world (including Doc Brown's Flux Capacitor) could potentially be involved.

Another interpretation of this week's episode is that, since the island can clearly make people see anything it wants to (e.g. Charlie's "Madonna on the Beach" vision, Locke's sweat lodge experience) then perhaps Desmond's experience was the island (personified by Mrs. Hawking) trying to convince him to "stay the course" and keep believing that he has an important job to do on the island.

His apparent ability to fortell the future might go like this:
1. island decides it needs to impress Desmond, so gives him a
vision that warns about an upcoming lightning strike killing Charlie
2. Des gets Charlie out of the way, and sets up lightning rod
3. Island create lightning bolt, right on cue
Similarly, the "undertow" that pulled Claire out to sea may also have been the island trying to fulfill the Charlie-drowning vision it has given to Desmond, since it knows that Charlie would dive right in, even though he is a sucky athlete.

BUT WAIT A MINUTE! ....

Want to know what makes more sense? replacing "time travel' with imagination.

So... would he be "imagining" see the future also? He used the same word "flash" to describe what he saw in the past, and what he sees in the future... so, first he started Imagining the past then legitimately seeing the future through the same type of "flashes"? Nah, since it's established that he Does catch glimpses of the future, I can't see anything to discount that he caught a longer glimpse of the past first.

I'm in agreement with you that it wasn't time travel, but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us

Oh yes, you're quite right

Re-watching the show really helped and I do think that Desmond did go back in time........or at least his consciousness did. When he regained consciousness from his concussion, this was the future Desmond's mind inside the past Desmond's body. Otherwise, why would he have touched Penny's face and looked at her with wonder? IMO, it was because he's seeing her again after so many years...........yet, Desmond didn't understand why he felt this way. This is not time travel like in the movie Somewhere in Time, where Christopher Reeve's character physically and mentally travels back to 1912 while retaining memories of his past (yet future) life in the 1980's. Desmond doesn't retain his memories of his future (past?) life on the Island, only glimpses of it. In his first go round, he probably passed Charlie without a second look, but the part of his mind that does remember the Island recognizes Charlie now.

I do think Ms. Hawking is a manifestation of the island; the first go round, Desmond did not buy the ring, did break Penny's heart, did end up on the Island and pushing the button. The Island needs Desmond to end up there again so naturally this woman does not want to sell the ring to Desmond because if she does then he will be with Penny and everything will change. I wonder if the man who was crushed in the construction accident even died during Desmond's first go round; I suspect not. I suspect that this is the Island's way of convincing Desmond that his fate/destiny can not be altered. I wonder if Dharma built the island - there are man-made islands around the world- and somehow imbued it with this mystical power. That would explain why the Island seems to have a stake in all of these people getting to and remaining there.

It really creeped me out when Ms. Hawking said that "all of us are going to die".....if Desmond buys the ring and proposes to Penny. Like one big guilt trip.......and I'm not sure who US is, but I don't think she meant mankind in general, probably the creators of the Island (Dharma?).

It's been a while since my last post over here, but after the last episode, I felt I would like to share my ideas with you.

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers. Second, in most sci fi media, everytime somebody travels back in time, he is able to see himself as he was in the past. Where was the Desmond from that period of time? He didn't see himself running in the streets or at the pub. It was more like his conciousness from the future possesed his body from the past. And this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling. And I believe TPTB did that for a reason. The whole episode was very ambiguous as to let us know if he did traveled back in time or not. They love doing that with us poor viewers! Don't they?

So if he didn't go back in time, what happened to him then? Ok. I think one of the answers might come from Ms Hawking's intentions. It seems she was very interested in Desmond going to the island and not marrying Penny. She also let us know the importance of pushing the button, once again. In other words, she wanted the button to get pushed. Now who else wanted that button pushed? The Others? No. Remember Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button? So who else wanted that button to get pushed? What about Yemi? Yemi wanted Ecko to keep pushing that button because that was very 'important'. Now it is widely accepted that Yemi was a Smokie's manifestation. right?

We know how vivid and powerful Smokie's hallucinations can be. So why not to believe the whole Desmond reliving his past was in fact a very strong and lucid hallucination-manifestation?

We also know that it can read people's memories, as he did with Ecko. So perhaps he read Desmond's memories at some point and based on those memories it build an alternate past for Desmond to live in for a while for some unknown purpose for now...
If you think about it, Smokie may have done the same thing to Ecko and even Locke. We know for a fact that it read Ecko's mind and it may have done exactly the same thng with Locke during their first encounter. So why not to think that during the Swan implosion all three of them went through very similar experiences? Ecko may have failed the relive-your-life 'test'. That's why he was killed.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

Did anyone think that Mrs. H "changed her tune" in the store? She was nice and willing to help Des find an inexpesive ring. She went to the trouble to walk to another counter for the ring. When Des decides he likes it, she becomes a different person as if smokie took over. Who knows?

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers.

1. I don't recall where they said there wouldn't be any time/space warping... where was that? I remember them saying there was no time travel, but as you mentioned, "this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling".

2. TPTB also said early on that "Lost" was not sci-fi but admitted later that it really was, but in disguise.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

That's a very interesting theory. If Desmond really Didn't warp into the past, then I could definately see Smokey causing the hallucination for his/her/its own agenda.

It's been a while since my last post over here, but after the last episode, I felt I would like to share my ideas with you.

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers. Second, in most sci fi media, everytime somebody travels back in time, he is able to see himself as he was in the past. Where was the Desmond from that period of time? He didn't see himself running in the streets or at the pub. It was more like his conciousness from the future possesed his body from the past. And this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling. And I believe TPTB did that for a reason. The whole episode was very ambiguous as to let us know if he did traveled back in time or not. They love doing that with us poor viewers! Don't they?

So if he didn't go back in time, what happened to him then? Ok. I think one of the answers might come from Ms Hawking's intentions. It seems she was very interested in Desmond going to the island and not marrying Penny. She also let us know the importance of pushing the button, once again. In other words, she wanted the button to get pushed. Now who else wanted that button pushed? The Others? No. Remember Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button? So who else wanted that button to get pushed? What about Yemi? Yemi wanted Ecko to keep pushing that button because that was very 'important'. Now it is widely accepted that Yemi was a Smokie's manifestation. right?

We know how vivid and powerful Smokie's hallucinations can be. So why not to believe the whole Desmond reliving his past was in fact a very strong and lucid hallucination-manifestation?

We also know that it can read people's memories, as he did with Ecko. So perhaps he read Desmond's memories at some point and based on those memories it build an alternate past for Desmond to live in for a while for some unknown purpose for now...
If you think about it, Smokie may have done the same thing to Ecko and even Locke. We know for a fact that it read Ecko's mind and it may have done exactly the same thng with Locke during their first encounter. So why not to think that during the Swan implosion all three of them went through very similar experiences? Ecko may have failed the relive-your-life 'test'. That's why he was killed.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

This is the best analysis I've read! Great job! This is a great discussion by the way. It's nice to read a thread without people attacking the show with every other post and actually discussing the show. :)

I really don't think Charlie would have to recognize Desmond. I know that Jack and Desmond recognized each other, but I felt that that was supposed to be kind of remarkable, that that was the whole point.

Doesn't a rambling crazy person approach everyone once in a while (seriously)?? I don't think I could remember the face a single one, let alone the conversation.

Betsy - Spot on, that's exactly what I got out of it.

I don't think Thomas' painting is a good arguement for a Dream Theory, because, well, Desmond has nothing to do with Thomas. Why would the painting be in Desmond's memory? In response you could say "well, it's Lost, the characters are all interconnected..." but if you are going to make that argument, then it's just as likely that there's a Widmore-Thomas connection....

but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us:..When I turned that key...my life...flashed before my eyes. And then I was back in the jungle. Still on this bloody island. But those flashes, Charlie? Those flashes...they didn't stop. .

Why didnt you highlight BACK in the jungle? To be back-- is to be somewhere else before you got back

He also says "send me back" "Let me go back one more time"

So by your logic you disregard everything he says except the one word "still"? :) Then by your logic Desmond meant that when he was interacting with people in the past--that was one of the flashes he talked about. That doesnt fit with his flashes one bit. We saw what the flashes looked like because they showed him having them in the Past. Those are the flashes..not the trip in time.

Some of the other points you made are good. I know all of these. The biggest clue to a dream is the reversal of Widmore's room when Des looks at the painting. But when you considers writers purposely cast doubt on Desmonds original thought( that he pleaded to his scientist friend) that he had time traveled---you must also honestly say that was debunked in the Bar when the goal was scored.

Desmond himself proclaimed it and was estatic he was not crazy..he was back in time..and now he can go attempt to change things..this is what he said. Then when he gets BACK to the jungle..he keeps saying it. Send me back..just one more time

To deny that that is what happened, right on the screen, is to project your own bias and wishes upon the story.

Now all the weird things do leave room for a dream or vision. But that is not what Desmond believed--and that was not ending moral of the story. They wanted us to think it was time travel. If you think its a dream because your think your being con'd or by the other weaker evidence..fine..thats honest and not impossible-- knowing Lost. :) But this flat out denial from people about the evidence for time travel doesnt make sense.

The last things I'll say on my point of view is

What was the original question that was asked in this episode by Charlie and us?

How is Desmond preventing events?

Now, as writer, how would you go about answering that question?

Well, I would setup a fake trip back in time that was only a dream.

..yeah right

Now what in the world would that prove? That explains nothing about how he prevented Charlies death. It has no meaning whatsoever to the question. In fact..it completely debunks that Time is involved

So the strength of the TT theory far outweighs a dream. Like I said..knowing Lost..that could be a reason to reject it. And if it turns out to be a dream..then the writers learned nothing about the viewers frustration for answers.

Did anyone think that Mrs. H "changed her tune" in the store? She was nice and willing to help Des find an inexpesive ring. She went to the trouble to walk to another counter for the ring. When Des decides he likes it, she becomes a different person as if smokie took over. Who knows?

She did that because she knew that the first time Desmond lived through this, he didn't buy the ring. Mrs. Hawking did everything she could to get him not to take the ring so that everything that happened before would happen again. If Desmond bought the ring and proposed to Penny, the future would be altered.

Ok, a few thoughts on this. How about if the woman in the shop was Carol DeGroot. And the time thing is directly related to the numbers, trying to solve the death of everything, (trying to avoid your path so to speak) and the reason she is in Desmond's flashes is because she was previously involved in a similar incident that displaced her in space time in an attempt to solve the problems of humanity etc. The way she was talking about "course correcting" and the like made it sound like she had been trying to save people like the man who got hit by the scaffolding for a long time. I don't think it was a dream, it too flagrantly ignored the majority of Lost flashback rules. At the very least it had a basis in time, as being different and able to manipulate to a certain degree. Probably a combination of the Island talking to Desmond, like Locke, like Jack et al. with the idea of time traveling. My guess is that this is just the culmination of things that have been happening all along on the island. This is not an idea or a concept in a vacuum, it has a basis in what has been happening already, most probably with the black smoke.

And if it turns out to be a dream..then the writers learned nothing about the viewers frustration for answers.
Only if you consider it an ordinary dream. If it is in any way influenced by the island/smokey--which we've seen several examples of with other characters in various visions (did Eko travel back in time? After all, he was conversing with his dead brother and being attacked by gangsters he murdered years earlier)--then not only is it completely consistent within the Lost universe, but it serves as further exposition of the visions/flashback phenomena. The guy didn't take a siesta and have a little dream... he experience an incredible physical, mental, and emotional trauma. A near-death-experience of that magnitude--complete with the Wizard of Oz allusions--and a very close brush with arguably the most mysterious and powerful force on the island, perhaps in the world--is hardly just a dream.

And if what we see in Des's flashback was reality in London in the late 90's, then I want some of what he's having! There are too many easter eggs planted there for them to be production errors, and some are too poignant to be red herrings... it's just what Desmond and TPTB told us it was... Flashes Before Your Eyes!

eta: as for Desmond's quote, and my highlighting "still"... that word supercedes the statement before it. He had a very vivid, very real-feeling experience, and woke up "back in the jungle. STILL on this island." Still, as in, he never went anywhere, he was still there. He couldn't be "in London" or "in the past" and "still" be on the island... we'd have to reinterpret the English language, or the rules of logic, or something, I don't know... but "still", by definition, means he never went anywhere. That's why I highlighted that one. From dictionary.com:

still [stil] adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb, conjunction, verb –adjective
1.remaining in place or at rest; motionless; stationary: to stand still.
10. at this or that time; as previously: Are you still here?
17.Archaic. steadily; constantly; always.

It seems a bit weird to me, to be asking if "this is a vision or did Desmond travel time?". The reason being that it doesn't matter either way. TPTB were being purposely cryptic and vague about it as the answer to "When is a flashback not a flashback" is both. They've left clues that support both sides of the argument.

It's mental time travel because: Desmond was able to recall is 'current' life on the island, Desmond was able to predict the outcome of the soccer game, remembered Charlie, etc.
It's a dream/vision because: well... the exact same reasons with the addition of The Ring Lady and the blow returning him to current time.

I think that the only obvious thing about this sequence is 1) They'd like us to form our own idea about what happened and 2) That the future cannot be changed, obviously to be used as a plot device in further episodes. Just for the record though, I believe that it was a vision given to him. And in said vision, he was reliving this short period of his life. If it was indeed a bout of time travel, then the show would have to involve so much more with the Ring Lady has some sort of "guardian of time" or what have you. It'd be a long and far departure from the small steps and nagging mysteries of the past. It's the difference between showing an oddly-toed statue and the alien-walking-across-the-street scene in Signs.


Edit: I don't use the word dream for a specific reason. It'd imply that the entire experience was all some imaginative result of a concussion. There was definitely an outside influence involved, no matter what you saw it as, manifested in the ring lady.

And one last thing
It seems as if everyone here doesn't watch the "scenes from next weeks Lost" immediately after the show. Anyone else catch a glimpse of a certain enigmatic ring lady on the island? I sure did.

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time.

Why did they ?

If Desmond travelled back in time, why is the old lady talking to him ?
Desmond being nude is obviously a nod towards Terminator but i have yet to see proof that he time travelled and there is no ' loop ' as i've seen nothing to indicate that either, only evidence to the contrary.

Another dimension ? Possibly but previous history on Lost would suggest not.
The island talking to him ? Well we've had implications of that before with Jack, Locke, Shannon etc.
Time travel ? I seriously doubt it. Charlie's presence in the flashback, singing Wonderwall suggests to me that the likeliest outcome was that it all happened in Desmonds head.

Or maybe Desmond doesn't actually know that Charlie would have died in both of those events... I don't know, just a possibility.

It seems that some type of deja vu, or vision comes to Desmond now that helps him predict the time frame around Charlie's danger zone = ) Desmond gets that vision face then starts building the lightening rod, then he gets that vision face and runs off to the beach. Just and idea.. :undecide:

I've not read through this entire thread, but I've read enough of it that I was compelled to dig up something from nearly 2 years ago. This also goes a long way toward proving that TPTB do, in fact, have a plan and it's the same plan they've had all along. They're NOT making it up as they go along.

Here is a link to an old thread about an interview with David Fury where the issue of time comes up. I'll spoiler font it to be safe, since there is one aspect which has not yet made it into an episode yet ...

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=11552&highlight=fury

There's the link to the thread, but here is the particularly interesting quote from David Fury ... DF:Who knows what's possible on the island? There was something that was cut from the episode I did in which Sayid was captured by the French woman Rousseau, and tortured. She said she was with a science team, that she had come from a research vessel. There was a line that was cut from an earlier draft where he said, " What were you studying?" and she said "Time."

It sounds to me like time has been a big deal all along, but they decided not give it away back in season 1.

So if Danielle's research team was researching time, isn't it interesting that they ended up on this particular island when they followed the numbers transmission. OR ... was she lying about that and they actually came to the island on purpose? And what has she (or did they) discover about time properties on the island that would be really helpful to our lostaways if they only knew?

I've always been under the impression that they've known most of the big picture the entire. They're just connecting the lines as they see fit while they go though.

For all the references to the similarities of time traveling in other pieces of work and this episode, there is the one main fact that contradicts all those similarities. This is the fact that the future goes unchanged despite any altered actions in the past. And honestly, Charlie would remember Desmond. If I ever encountered a seeming psychopath who right on cue predicted the rain, I'd probably remember it.

So either Desmond didn't go back in time, or he did and it made no difference whatsoever to him just imagining it, because nothing that happened affected anything but his own thought.

Thanks, ForgivenTheWarLord and Brermike! Glad you find my little explanation interesting!
Now I would like to expand it a little bit more...

Following my idea from a couple of posts above, we could even understand how Smokie could determine if a person is 'good' or 'bad'. First, it chooses its target, then it reads his/her memories searching for 'key points' in the person's past. Points in which he or she may have been forced to make difficult decisions. Now Smokie, based on this information, recreates a sequence in the target's past life and lets this person relive that part of his/her life again. What for? To see if this person makes the same mistake/decision twice. Let's take Ecko's case. Perhaps during the implosion, Ecko was transported to the time in which he was a young boy and killed a man to save his brother. He may have done it again in Smokie's test. This was definitely wrong according to Smokie's beliefs, so it gave Ecko a last chance to redeem himself by 'regreting his sins' in front of his brother Yemi. Ecko didn't, so he was erradicated.
But what is Smokie? How on earth can it do the things it does? Well, if we ruled out Time Travel, which could easily explain it, and we accept they are still living in 2004-2005, there's only one explanation left for me... 'Paranormal phenomena'.

This 'not science-based' idea has been brought up in the show several times: Claire's psychic, Walt's specialness, Desmond's flashes of the future and in the Orientation film itself. Let's not forget there might be a whole station dedicated to study parapsycology phenomena. Is it the Flame, by the way? Is Patchy involved or related to the Black Cloud in some way? There's definitely some religious connotations in the way Smokie judges people. So whoever is 'controling' it might be some kind of religious 'freak'. And who could this person be? There has been a very mysterious biblic name showing up in the last few episodes that may hold the answer: Jacob. He is our man.

I've not read through this entire thread, but I've read enough of it that I was compelled to dig up something from nearly 2 years ago. This also goes a long way toward proving that TPTB do, in fact, have a plan and it's the same plan they've had all along. They're NOT making it up as they go along.

[/spoiler]

They are making up huge chunks of it as they go along. In Season 2, they basically rewrote Desmonds history from " man in bunker scared of sickness, the button and nthe outside world " to " man in bunker who knew there was no sickness, knew there was a failsafe and ventured outside...and he has a love story ".

They've also had to write out characters like Libby ( we'll never know about the institution now - big hole ) and Ana Lucia ( more unanswered questions ).

Through being forced by unforseen circumstances and on audience figures and their reactions to certain characters, TPTB are making up huge parts of this as they go along.

What about The Pearl with the tubes that just end up in a pile in the middle of the island where people can see them ? What's that about ?!!!

My big problem with the 'time travel is guaranteed' idea is exactly for the reasons of what was shown.

We clearly see that Desmond believes he knows the outcome of a soccer game, before it happens. But it doesnt. They dont score, the cricket guy doesnt pound on the barkeep.

BUT, the next day, he gets to watch the same match AGAIN? That makes no sense, but it does fit with the idea that he's having a crazy, intense dream-like revisiting of a traumatic time in his life.

Now, why can he glimpse flashes forward? The only thing I can think of is something we learned about Dharma. They were studying a number of things, including remote viewing.

Remote viewing, if it really exists, is a study of the mind's ability to 'see' what the eyes could not possibly. Remote viewers also claim that they have a skill that allows them to draw a picture of an object you will show them in a hour.

I wonder if Desmond's 'flashes' are a sort of 'remote viewing gone wild', where he can see something, wether he concentrates or not. This is a weird place afterall

My big problem with the 'time travel is guaranteed' idea is exactly for the reasons of what was shown.

We clearly see that Desmond believes he knows the outcome of a soccer game, before it happens. But it doesnt. They dont score, the cricket guy doesnt pound on the barkeep.

BUT, the next day, he gets to watch the same match AGAIN? That makes no sense, but it does fit with the idea that he's having a crazy, intense dream-like revisiting of a traumatic time in his life.


It was explained in the episode that he got the the game mixed up with the one he 'remembered'. He did remember the events (the team coming back to score twice late on and the guy coming into the bar to attack the barman) but they didn't occur on that particular evening.

It's not clear that the next occasion, when he saw the other match, was only one day later but it doesn't really matter. He was remembering an evening in a pub watching a football match many years in the past.
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For all the references to the similarities of time traveling in other pieces of work and this episode, there is the one main fact that contradicts all those similarities. This is the fact that the future goes unchanged despite any altered actions in the past. And honestly, Charlie would remember Desmond. If I ever encountered a seeming psychopath who right on cue predicted the rain, I'd probably remember it.

So either Desmond didn't go back in time, or he did and it made no difference whatsoever to him just imagining it, because nothing that happened affected anything but his own thought.

If Charlie had been busking in London for some time chances are that he would see a fair share of weirdos. No reason to link a well dressed guy in a suit with a dishevelled 'wild man' who shows up on the Island many years later. Jack didn't seem to remember Desmond right away - or at least couldn't be sure - nor did Desmond seem to remember Jack immediately.

For me, the blinking poster kills the time travel theory, unless you want to say Desmond traveled back to a time and place where objects no longer behave the same. I favor the lucid dream theory, with the Island making an appearance in the form of the ring lady trying to influence Desmond's actions.

[quote=Quinch;1385009]It was explained in the episode that he got the the game mixed up with the one he 'remembered'. He did remember the events (the team coming back to score twice late on and the guy coming into the bar to attack the barman) but they didn't occur on that particular evening.

It's not clear that the next occasion, when he saw the other match, was only one day later but it doesn't really matter. He was remembering an evening in a pub watching a football match many years in the past.
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That could explain it, but the key here is as you said...he was remembering long ago events, not re-living them. If you re-live events, you dont need a good memory.

If Charlie had been busking in London for some time chances are that he would see a fair share of weirdos. No reason to link a well dressed guy in a suit with a dishevelled 'wild man' who shows up on the Island many years later. Jack didn't seem to remember Desmond right away - or at least couldn't be sure - nor did Desmond seem to remember Jack immediately.

Jack did remember Desmond but said nothing probably because he was of the opinion that they were there by accident and didn't want to lend any substance to Locke's argument that they were there for a reason.

If Charlie doesn't remember Desmond then he's even more annoying. As it stands, i don't think that incident ever happened. Nor do i think Desmond was hit by the bat.

Okay, still trying to somewhat understand this... If desmond did really time travel, how does it make sense that the ring shop lady was Smokey? Did he time travel along with Desmond? If not, what is Smokey doing in London? These questions of course become invalid if one argues that Desmond only "mentally" time-travelled, so is that perhaps what's being said?

They're probably dumb questions, but hey. Damn you, lost.

They are making up huge chunks of it as they go along. In Season 2, they basically rewrote Desmonds history from " man in bunker scared of sickness, the button and nthe outside world " to " man in bunker who knew there was no sickness, knew there was a failsafe and ventured outside...and he has a love story ".

They've also had to write out characters like Libby ( we'll never know about the institution now - big hole ) and Ana Lucia ( more unanswered questions ).

Through being forced by unforseen circumstances and on audience figures and their reactions to certain characters, TPTB are making up huge parts of this as they go along.

What about The Pearl with the tubes that just end up in a pile in the middle of the island where people can see them ? What's that about ?!!!

No offense, but that is a lot of speculation. Plus, they have said on numerous times that Libby's story will be continued in other characters's flashbacks - specifically why she was in an institution. Even so, what you describe aren't "huge parts." If they know the answers to the island's mysterious and the Others/DHARMA, but are writing and/or changing some of the character stories, then I'm fine with that. Who's to say a new idea isn't better than an original idea? Why does their plan have to be set in stone? What kind of creativity does that produce?

No offense, but that is a lot of speculation. Plus, they have said on numerous times that Libby's story will be continued in other characters's flashbacks - specifically why she was in an institution. Even so, what you describe aren't "huge parts." If they know the answers to the island's mysterious and the Others/DHARMA, but are writing and/or changing some of the character stories, then I'm fine with that. Who's to say a new idea isn't better than an original idea? Why does their plan have to be set in stone? What kind of creativity does that produce?

Strange post - questioning my opinion and then basically agreeing.

Strange post - questioning my opinion and then basically agreeing.

You are right, I was basically agreeing with your point :) Sorry if it sounded argumentative. The only part I was questioning were the terms "huge parts" and the stuff about Libby. I hear this frequently on this board, and stated like fact that we will never find out about Libby and the mental institution. TPTB have stated in interviews that the original plan was not to kill off Libby but they had a better story in mind that included her death and that we would get the rest of her story in other character's flashbacks. There is even a comment on the S2 DVD on Cynthia Watros's last day of filming that "we haven't seen the last of her". I just wanted to re-iterate that we have been told repeatedly that we will find out. Not that any of this is really relevent to this topic but I had to chime in :redface:

You are right, I was basically agreeing with your point :) Sorry if it sounded argumentative. The only part I was questioning were the terms "huge parts" and the stuff about Libby. I hear this frequently on this board, and stated like fact that we will never find out about Libby and the mental institution. TPTB have stated in interviews that the original plan was not to kill off Libby but they had a better story in mind that included her death and that we would get the rest of her story in other character's flashbacks. There is even a comment on the S2 DVD on Cynthia Watros's last day of filming that "we haven't seen the last of her". I just wanted to re-iterate that we have been told repeatedly that we will find out. Not that any of this is really relevent to this topic but I had to chime in :redface:

Ah, well i did not buy the Season 2 dvd but i stand by " huge parts ". Killing characters off or filling them out requires changes in storyline etc
Killing Libby off and deciding that we will find out about the institution through other people requires a fair amount of rewrite, additional backstory does it not ?

But back on topic :biggrin: i do not think Desmond travelled through time

Ah, well i did not buy the Season 2 dvd but i stand by " huge parts ". Killing characters off or filling them out requires changes in storyline etc
Killing Libby off and deciding that we will find out about the institution through other people requires a fair amount of rewrite, additional backstory does it not ?

But back on topic :biggrin: i do not think Desmond travelled through time
I just figured Libby is going to be involved with another character. They've given her a pretty important point, having provided Desmond with boat. And what with Hurley and the numbers... she's obviously deeply intertwined with the mysteries of the island, and I wouldn't be surprised to find her in another crossover in one of the Others' flashbacks. I think they can handle her without some kind of drastic rewrite... I think her part is just going to become more important, and therefore, more tragic.

I don't like that they killed her off, though... I enjoyed her on the show, as well.
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What about The Pearl with the tubes that just end up in a pile in the middle of the island where people can see them ? What's that about ?!!!
Do you think it might have just been evidence that it was the Pearl station inhabitants that were the subjects of the experiment? Kind of showing us that Desmond was right about that whole twist with Locke and the Pearl orientation video kerfluffle? Who knows though, there's probably yet to be another twist on that one... :biggrin:
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Ah, well i did not buy the Season 2 dvd but i stand by " huge parts ".
I don't mean to take this off-topic again, but here's my take on the "huge parts" missing and whatnot...

Docarzt over at thetailsection.com posted an article the other day, discussing the media's take on Lost's ratings dip. I thought he made an interesting point in it, saying that Lost is like a novel, and making the analogy that we're only a few chapters into the story. And if one were reading a novel, it would be unrealistic to expect that major mysteries would be resolved in the first or second third of the book.

I may be proven in the end to have been naive, but I think I have faith in the writers that the major holes that they open up will eventually be closed. We know Lost will go to a fourth season, and likely five or six. Even if it ends after just four, then we're only just approaching the 2/3 mark through the whole series. Trust me, I'm not in any way criticizing people for complaining about plotlines that seem to have been dropped or altered or long ago-asked questions that haven't been answered--I have found myself very frustrated as well--but I'm holding out hope that when they open those holes, even if it was the result of a change in the story, that they have a blueprint for how they're going to wrap it up on the other side.

That said, I'm DYING to understand Ben's motivation back when we first met him. Here's the leader of our antagonists caught in a trap. Tells Locke he was coming to take him away, and had no interest in the surgeon. He pushes the button when Locke is trapped--and lies to Locke about it (we know he pushed it, since we've seen what happens when it's not pushed.) Desmond isn't around, and we've seen that Ben didn't know about his boat... so we can assume he probably didn't know about his failsafe key. He tells Locke the whole hatch is a joke, setting in motion the chain of events that leads to the S2 finale and the hatch implosion. We know Ben values his life (they took Jack to save him), and considering the implication that not pushing the button would have killed everyone, likely destroyed the island, and possibly the world--and definitely have killed Ben, why would he appear to be manipulating Locke to stop pushing it? Even the events following the failsafe don't seem to have been anticipated by him, as we've seen problems for the others--it appears they've lost communication with the outside world, their comms are down... and the implication seems to be that they once could leave the island, but can't "since the sky turned purple."

That's the one that really grates on me... I realize they had to alter Ben's storyline, since he was originally a temporary addition (IIRC) for 3 eps, then 6, before he was signed as a series regular. But I can't seem to find a logical way that the writers can explain his motivations there--that's my big one that I hope they eventually let us in on!

Just thought I'd give my quick thought on this time travel/dream business.

My opinion is that a dream and time travel happened! My first thought is that when the implosion ocurred he was actually arriving back from the future. Surely if he knows what's going to happen to Charlie then he needs some information from the future, so this can't be gained by travelling back to a time before the implosion.

Each time he travels back to the implosion point the timeline goes off at a different tangent.

I think the "dream" was just his mind readjusting to the current time frame.

That said, I'm DYING to understand Ben's motivation back when we first met him. Here's the leader of our antagonists caught in a trap. Tells Locke he was coming to take him away, and had no interest in the surgeon. He pushes the button when Locke is trapped--and lies to Locke about it (we know he pushed it, since we've seen what happens when it's not pushed.) Desmond isn't around, and we've seen that Ben didn't know about his boat... so we can assume he probably didn't know about his failsafe key. He tells Locke the whole hatch is a joke, setting in motion the chain of events that leads to the S2 finale and the hatch implosion. We know Ben values his life (they took Jack to save him), and considering the implication that not pushing the button would have killed everyone, likely destroyed the island, and possibly the world--and definitely have killed Ben, why would he appear to be manipulating Locke to stop pushing it? Even the events following the failsafe don't seem to have been anticipated by him, as we've seen problems for the others--it appears they've lost communication with the outside world, their comms are down... and the implication seems to be that they once could leave the island, but can't "since the sky turned purple."

That's the one that really grates on me... I realize they had to alter Ben's storyline, since he was originally a temporary addition (IIRC) for 3 eps, then 6, before he was signed as a series regular. But I can't seem to find a logical way that the writers can explain his motivations there--that's my big one that I hope they eventually let us in on!

You want to understand Ben's motivations? Here's my guess:

The DHARMA Initiative has been judged a failure. No core value of the Valenzetti equation has ever been changed. The end of humanity is considered inevitable.

So rather than continuing to try, it has been decided to create on the Island a last outpost of humanity. It is hoped that the extreme isolation of the Island will shield its inhabitants from the calamity to come.

Because the Island isn't just hidden--the powerful magnetic fields emanating from it enclose it in its own "pocket Universe"--it exists outside of normal time and space. From time to time throughout history openings have appeared and people have gotten stranded there, but these openings have been infrequent and perhaps irregular--until fairly recently, with the creation of the Swan.

The purpose of the Swan Hatch was to hold open a "crack" to the outside world, allowing electromagnetic communication and even travel in and out if one knows precisely where to go. For some reason the builders of the Swan hatch wanted to make sure that a deliberate act of will was necessary to keep that crack open--the computer used to input the numbers was, after all, perfectly capable of inputting them itself every 108 minutes.

It appears that whatever has followed the DHARMA Initiative has been co-opted by descendents of people who crashed on the Island long ago. Whatever powers of manipulation and control Ben uses to keep the Others under his thumb are most likely held in even greater measure by his father Jacob. It is unclear whether the Hanso Foundation and whoever else may be backing the project are aware of Ben and Jacob and any other Island natives.

Now the Others are tasked with preparing for a large influx of people coming to escape the inevitable humanity-ending calamity that is fast approaching. That's what Sawyer and Kate were working on... probably a landing pad or housing or something.

But Ben likes being in charge and doesn't think he still will be once all those new people arrive. So he decides to close the door to the outside. Because he's lived on the Island all his life, he knows more about it than the Others, including the purpose of the Swan. He knows if the button isn't pushed the Island will be all alone again.

He goes to the Pearl to spy on the Swan, get the lay of the land. He realizes Locke is the key. He heads out to kidnap or kill Locke but gets captured.

He wants the Swan destroyed, but he doesn't want to be in it when it happens. So he pushes the button but tells Locke that he didn't, planting the seed of doubt in his mind and knowing that eventually Locke will have to see what happens when the button isn't pushed. He also knows that one way or another his buddies will get him out of there soon.

I think the "End of the World" if the button isn't pushed doesn't mean that the Swan will blow up the planet. I think it either means the End of (access to) the Outside World--which it did--or it means that the DHARMA Initiative is the only way of saving the world (from the Valenzetti Equation), and they can't save the World if they're cut off from it.

I don't think the failsafe kay changed anything about how the Swan imploded. I think it either sent Desmond back in time to give him a chance to change the events that led up to the Swan implosion or it simply somehow saved the lives of the people inside.

If it didn't send Desmond back in time (and I'm leaning that way in my opinion), then his flashback was a vision from the Island that seemed to have the sole purpose of trying to convince him that he can't use his ability to see the future to change things. And the only reason I can see why the Island would want to do that is because he CAN change things, but the Island doesn't want him to.

So rather than continuing to try, it has been decided to create on the Island a last outpost of humanity. It is hoped that the extreme isolation of the Island will shield its inhabitants from the calamity to come.

The purpose of the Swan Hatch was to hold open a "crack" to the outside world, allowing electromagnetic communication

I think the "End of the World" if the button isn't pushed doesn't mean that the Swan will blow up the planet. I think it either means the End of (access to) the Outside World--which it did--or it means that the DHARMA Initiative is the only way of saving the world (from the Valenzetti Equation), and they can't save the World if they're cut off from it.

Hey that's some fine theorising. This may interest you (sorry to pimp) http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=69945

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Back on topic: I am personally against the idea of Desmond time travelling and lean towards the dream/vision.

Time travel and a self-correcting universe imply two things - that the Losties are in a Multiverse and that it/they/god are a conscious entity with a set goal who like to "course correct".

If Desmond travelled back into the past and moved even one quantum particle different than what he did originally than he cannot live in a single timeline Universe as he would be instantly annihilated. This would be due to the Butterfly Effect and the fact that any system tends towards chaos, not order - hence no self-correction. And we know he did things very, very differently and not only did he affect himself but Charlie as well.

However, if he lives in a Multiverse he could have in theory gone back into the past and forced a shift into a slightly different timeline. Still, why would this Multiverse then try to move back onto the original one? Is it conscious and aims to achieve something? Then why not just will it - it is the Multiverse after all. Why have so much trouble in killing a single person? Or is there some massive, secret organisation with advanced technology that monitors all the information in the world and nudges events towards some grand finale... Theoretically possible, but very, very unlikely due to the level of complication involved.

The argument for a dream/vision has been already made many times and I cannot at the moment think of anything to add. Too many things in the episode looked like it was Des's mind filling in the blanks for me though...

Finally, I am interested to hear what you think of this. When Desmond had a vision of the lightning strike, did he see it hitting the hut or did he see it hitting his DIY lightning rod? Have fun ;)

Arguing that time travel didn't happen because of the blinking poster/namaste painting/other easter eggs in the episode does not make any sense!!! If easter eggs mean the entire reality/environment is inside the protagonist's mind, then any scene with an easter egg can be inside the protagonist's mind (or anyone else's)!! The whole season, for that matter, all of Lost is therefore fake.

wtec - I really like the idea of the crack for electromagnetic transmissions. In the series Star Trek Voyager the voyager crew communicates with starfleet while they're an entire galaxy away by bouncing subspace transmissions off of black holes; your idea reminds me a lot of this...(snorts and adjusts pocket protector)....

mprose - sorry buddy but you're not right about the ring lady:


First of all she's not even English, but also if you look you'll see that the actresses are different.

Arguing that time travel didn't happen because of the blinking poster/namaste painting/other easter eggs in the episode does not make any sense!!! If easter eggs mean the entire reality/environment is inside the protagonist's mind, then any scene with an easter egg can be inside the protagonist's mind (or anyone else's)!! The whole season, for that matter, all of Lost is therefore fake.
The fact that there are easter eggs isn't what invalidates the time travel idea. They were elements of surrealism to indicate just that--it wasn't real. To use just one of those items as an example, you are then endorsing a reality that says Big Ben doesn't tell time, it's always on 4:04. To use another, the painting that Claire's boyfriend was working on in 2004 already hangs on Widmore's wall when Des is there, which is sometime prior to 2001. Too tired to run through the others... but those aren't easter eggs for fun, they are indicators that it's not real.

One last thought: did Eko travel back in time? He had several conversations with his long-dead brother. Of course, that would be a preposterous idea. I only suggest it is very likely that the very same mechanism is what happened to Desmond. It's more suggested by the evidence provided and requires less speculation to get there.

and one last, last thought. If it was time travel, what is the purpose of the obvious Wizard of Oz reference within the flashback, and the parallel structure throughout? I guess it could be a red herring, but it struck me as such a huge theme that I can't see it not having a purpose.

They were elements of surrealism to indicate just that--it wasn't real.

No amount of easter eggs or production errors make the above statement anything other than an opinion. Time travel is not "invalidated" in any sense because we have all beenw atching "Lost" long enough to know that TPTB made that scene so that it could be interpretted either way. It's strongly Hinted that it was more than just a dream (Desmond says he wants to go back) but we'll not know one way or the other until we find out if time travel is really something that's being presented on the island. If it is, then we'll know that Des went back... if it isn't, then we'll know it was a dream.

TPTB have said that there are two twists coming up... a character twist that's huge and a plot twist that will make people think "Lost" has "jumped the shark". Time travel sounds like it could be that plot twist... but only time will tell.

Sometimes I think that TPTB love to play around with us viewers hinting at theories that have long ago been debunked by themselves:
After 'Dave' lots of viewers were sure that everything was in Hurley's head...
Now after 'Flashes Before your Eyes' lots of viewers believe Time Travel is involved...

I'm sure we are gonna keep seeing this kind of stuff until the show ends...I'm expecting an episode in which we are hinted at the idea that aliens are
involved, another episode in which we are led to believed Smokie is made of nanobots, another one in which everybody will start thinking they are in a
reality show (this one would be so funny) and the biggest one af all: I can even predict the tittle of the episode... RIP, after this one airs, we all are
gonna be so sure they are all dead and in PURGATORY!!!

No amount of easter eggs or production errors make the above statement anything other than an opinion. Time travel is not "invalidated" in any sense because we have all beenw atching "Lost" long enough to know that TPTB made that scene so that it could be interpretted either way. It's strongly Hinted that it was more than just a dream (Desmond says he wants to go back) but we'll not know one way or the other until we find out if time travel is really something that's being presented on the island. If it is, then we'll know that Des went back... if it isn't, then we'll know it was a dream.

TPTB have said that there are two twists coming up... a character twist that's huge and a plot twist that will make people think "Lost" has "jumped the shark". Time travel sounds like it could be that plot twist... but only time will tell.
Of course I agree that it's open to speculation as to what happened, as events are quite often in Lost. It's part of what makes the show special and keeps us intrigued. But you're taking me a bit out of context, Forgiven--I wasn't saying the easter eggs are the be-all-end-all in the debate, I was countering Admiral's contention that it was nonsense to even consider them clues.

We have seen over 50 episodes of Lost to date. All have easter eggs. NONE have been like FBYE. In another thread, somebody is arguing they are all just continuity errors. If that's the case, and it's all unintentional, then it's the sloppiest work they've ever done, and isn't consistent with the careful production they have done in every other episode. That's not saying that there haven't been continuity errors prior, but honestly--like in FBYE? And even if all of the easter eggs are discounted as production errors, it doesn't address Charlie or the Wizard of Oz. Desmond is Dorothy.

We have seen over 50 episodes of Lost to date. All have easter eggs. NONE have been like FBYE. In another thread, somebody is arguing they are all just continuity errors. If that's the case, and it's all unintentional, then it's the sloppiest work they've ever done, and isn't consistent with the careful production they have done in every other episode. That's not saying that there haven't been continuity errors prior, but honestly--like in FBYE? And even if all of the easter eggs are discounted as production errors, it doesn't address Charlie or the Wizard of Oz. Desmond is Dorothy.

Then who's the scarecrow, tin man and cowardly lion? I don't think that the "Oz" thing is much more than a cute reference thrown in by the writers. Although, to be fair the "red shoes" scene has much more in common with a scene in "Schindler's List" than "The Wizard of Oz". In that movie Spielberg had a little girl wear a red dress so that the audience would recognize her later when we see her dead body... that's the exact same use that the red shoes had in this case.

And about the "number" of easter eggs... Hurley's episodes used to have the numbers Everywhere. These eggs could be there for the same reason.

Then who's the scarecrow, tin man and cowardly lion? I don't think that the "Oz" thing is much more than a cute reference thrown in by the writers. Although, to be fair the "red shoes" scene has much more in common with a scene in "Schindler's List" than "The Wizard of Oz". In that movie Spielberg had a little girl wear a red dress so that the audience would recognize her later when we see her dead body... that's the exact same use that the red shoes had in this case.

And about the "number" of easter eggs... Hurley's episodes used to have the numbers Everywhere. These eggs could be there for the same reason.
I mean no disrespect, Forgiven, but you're being absurd.

That's like saying that Sawyer using Star Wars references means we should be looking for Wookies and light sabers to show up.

We're both smart enough to know how literary references work, and how thematic elements are borrowed. Paralleling another story, or paying homage to it as an influence does not necessitate plagiarizing the entire thing.

As for it being closer to Schindler's list, please. Shoes are closer to shoes than to a dress. And the girl did not have a house fall on her, as the witch did similar to the construction site collapsing on the guy, both with red shoes sticking out. Spielberg also used a red dress as the only color in a black and white scene, did he not? You're really reaching there, Forgiven. You're also not acknowledging the similar structure of the story. A parallel can be drawn between Desmond and Dorothy. Certainly you are not suggesting that a historical drama about the holocaust borrows from Dorothy's fantasy in the Wizard of Oz?

As for Hurley's numbers, you help prove my case with that. You are saying on one hand the the easter eggs are just that, eggs, and not of any importance. The numbers, on the other hand, have considerable importance. They originated from the radio tower on the island. Got to Hurley in the institution. Won the lottery with them. Found them on the hatch. Been putting them into that computer for years and years and years... The numbers may not have significance outside of the story, but to say they were just easter eggs is false. Yes, they do appear as easter eggs in virtually every episode. But they were very much real in the stories occuring in the reality of the island as well. If the eggs in Des's flashback are there for the same reason as Hurley's numbers, like you say, then they would certainly be pointing something out to us and not be random occurrences.

We're both smart enough to know how literary references work, and how thematic elements are borrowed.


Shoes are closer to shoes than to a dress.

Yes, we are both smart enough to realize how literary references work, therefore we both know that the Intent of the scene is more important than the "shoe or dress" aspect. The episode prior to this made a reference to Star Wars when Kate and Sawyer faked being prisoners to get into the facility where Karl was being held. No "droids" or "wookies"... not even the same number of "prisoners", but the scene worked because the intent was the same.

The intent of the scene in "Schindler's List" is exactly the same as the red shoes in FBYE. The old woman's remark about his bold fashin choice serves the Exact same purpose as Spielberg making the entire movie in black and white, but having this one color of red stick out... it's to make that person Known to the viewer.

You're also not acknowledging the similar structure of the story. A parallel can be drawn between Desmond and Dorothy.

You're right, I'm not acknowledging it. Why? Because the "similar story structure" only exists if you Assume beforehand that it's all a dream for Desmond. If you don't assume that it's a dream then there's no similarites in story structure at all.

The intent of the scene in "Schindler's List" is exactly the same as the red shoes in FBYE. The old woman's remark about his bold fashin choice serves the Exact same purpose as Spielberg making the entire movie in black and white, but having this one color of red stick out... it's to make that person Known to the viewer.
I think we had agreed elsewhere that intentions were cleverly left open to interpretation by the writers, partly to stimulate this kind of interest. Likewise, there may be more than one intention... Lost has always been multi-layered. It sounds to me, in that statement, that you are claiming to know the only intent of the storytellers.

You don't have to abandon your time travel position to see the scene is a more exact (to use your word) reference to the Wizard of Oz scene. I don't deny that one intent is the same as Spielberg's, it's the same point the jewelry lady made about Fate, and I don't discount that. That doesn't preclude that it also points to something bigger. If the guy got hit by a bus, would it not have served the same purpose as in Shindler's list? What if he were mugged and shot, would that not serve the same pupose? Yet they chose red shoes, as opposed to some article of clothing, and they had a building fall on him. A very dramatic and unusual act, no? And, IMO, something that should not be ignored--how can you deny out of hand that it may have another, possibly grander, intent?


You're right, I'm not acknowledging it. Why? Because the "similar story structure" only exists if you Assume beforehand that it's all a dream for Desmond. If you don't assume that it's a dream then there's no similarites in story structure at all.In other words, you ignore anything that doesn't fit your preconceived idea of what happened? Again, this is absurd. How do you have to assume it was a vision in order to acknowledge that both Dorothy and Desmond took knocks on the head? The similarity between a violent act such as a tornado and the hatch implosion? The fact that elements of both realities are present in the other? No, you absolutely do not have to assume it was a vision to be able to acknowledge a similar theme or structure. I see a similarity, I certainly did not sit down to watch the show expecting to see a parallel to Dorothy's fantasy. I observed and noticed facts and allusions that pointed me in that direction. Which I think is generally how most theories and interpretations of the show come about... not from having a certain idea and then only acknowledging the elements that support that idea.

We've discussed differing views on this in a few threads now. While I hold a different view of what happened, I do respect and appreciate your insight. You've given a lot of careful thought to this, and I've said before that I think your ideas re: the time travel theory are plausible. Since we've gone back and forth over several threads, I just wanted to say that in case I appear argumentative or difficult. I've just been enjoying the discussion.

I had another, related thought this afternoon, as well. I don't know if you participate in the Theories forum here or not, Forgiven. Prior to this episode I only lurked in the spoilers forum, but I was reading some of Lostsanity's posts in the theory forum today. He has an interesting idea--I don't have an opinion on it--involving some kind of virtual reality therapy. The idea that struck me is that while everyone is debating whether Desmond had a near-death experience or traveled back in time, there is a very good chance that neither one is reality. It is always possible that we still haven't seen the true reality of the show, which may be yet to be revealed.

You don't have to abandon your time travel position to see the scene is a more exact (to use your word) reference to the Wizard of Oz scene. I don't deny that one intent is the same as Spielberg's, it's the same point the jewelry lady made about Fate, and I don't discount that. That doesn't preclude that it also points to something bigger. If the guy got hit by a bus, would it not have served the same purpose as in Shindler's list? What if he were mugged and shot, would that not serve the same pupose?

Yes, it would have served the same purpose, that's correct. I'm not saying that the red shoes sticking out from under rubble don't evoke a Visual from "The Wizard of Oz"... just that from an "intent" standpoint, if you look at the scene with No preconception about whether it's a dream or time travel, then that scene has more in common with the red dress from "List". I mean, they named Henry Gale after "The Wizard of Oz" also, so does that mean that his kidnapping was a dream also? This program references "Wizard of Oz", "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" on a consistent basis, and those references are just there as a wink to the audience... we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.

In other words, you ignore anything that doesn't fit your preconceived idea of what happened?

No, I looked at everything with no preconceived notion and only saw a reference of a scene from "The Wizard of Oz", but since "Oz" was not a recurring theme in Desmond's "experience" I didn't see it as any more than that.

I had another, related thought this afternoon, as well. I don't know if you participate in the Theories forum here or not, Forgiven. Prior to this episode I only lurked in the spoilers forum, but I was reading some of Lostsanity's posts in the theory forum today. He has an interesting idea--I don't have an opinion on it--involving some kind of virtual reality therapy. The idea that struck me is that while everyone is debating whether Desmond had a near-death experience or traveled back in time, there is a very good chance that neither one is reality. It is always possible that we still haven't seen the true reality of the show, which may be yet to be revealed.

That's an interesting thought... I don't know how I would feel if I found out that the island was a "Matrix" type construct. I do, however agree wholeheartedly that Whatever Desmond experienced, it probably wasn't as cut-and-dry as a "dream" or a "time loop". It was probably a combination of the two, or something else entirely.

I'm also certain that TPTB is getting a kick out of all these conversations... I'd bet anything this was intentional.

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.

Atticus has stated what I feel most have missed. For a "time loop" to exist, one has to agree with the premise that time is LINEAR, running through a "timeline" like the one we made in elementary school regarding history, lineage, or any number of other examples (i.e., if one "goes back in time", one would relive one's entire life again, beginning from that point). That premise is common, for most agree that "time marches on." In modern physics (and certain eastern religions), however, that premise is generally dismissed. A common belief of the non-linear concept of time thinkers is that of simultaneity - that is, that all possible realities coexist AT THE SAME TIME. Which would implicate that one could "slide" in or out of separate realities or portions of one's life without having to "start over (if one were capable, or somehow pushed)." I believe the "Heidegger's cat" thought experiment is indicative of this theory, and has been mentioned in numerous threads over the last two years. We have already been warned that "only fools are enslaved by time and space." And most of us are. About two years ago, I read of an atomic particle that "time traveled" - so experiments are ongoing in this fascinating field. Physicists, please help flesh this out.

Atticus has stated what I feel most have missed. For a "time loop" to exist, one has to agree with the premise that time is LINEAR, running through a "timeline" like the one we made in elementary school regarding history, lineage, or any number of other examples (i.e., if one "goes back in time", one would relive one's entire life again, beginning from that point). That premise is common, for most agree that "time marches on." In modern physics (and certain eastern religions), however, that premise is generally dismissed. A common belief of the non-linear concept of time thinkers is that of simultaneity - that is, that all possible realities coexist AT THE SAME TIME. Which would implicate that one could "slide" in or out of separate realities or portions of one's life without having to "start over (if one were capable, or somehow pushed)." I believe the "Heidegger's cat" thought experiment is indicative of this theory, and has been mentioned in numerous threads over the last two years. We have already been warned that "only fools are enslaved by time and space." And most of us are. About two years ago, I read of an atomic particle that "time traveled" - so experiments are ongoing in this fascinating field. Physicists, please help flesh this out.


Do you mean Schrödinger's cat, Heidegger was a philosopher? Schrödinger's cat that attempts to illustrate the incompleteness of an early interpretation of quantum mechanics when going from subatomic to macroscopic systems. It really has nothing to do with time.

Do you mean Schrödinger's cat, Heidegger was a philosopher? Schrödinger's cat that attempts to illustrate the incompleteness of an early interpretation of quantum mechanics when going from subatomic to macroscopic systems. It really has nothing to do with time.

Oops. Should have googled that. I believed that particular exp. related to reality having to be observed to exist, which I fell could relate to time. Thanks for the correction.

Oops. Should have googled that. I believed that particular exp. related to reality having to be observed to exist, which I fell could relate to time. Thanks for the correction.

Yes, you are correct. The theory deals with sub atomic particles and their behaviour and postulates that they exist in all possible states until observed. The experiment (this is a thought experiment only) has a cat in a box (which is isloated from the rest of the universe) with a gieger detector, an atomic nucleus and a gas cannister. If the nucleus decays, the geiger counter will sense it and trigger the release of the gas. In one hour, there is a 50% chance that the nucleus will decay, and therefore that the gas will be released and kill the cat.


According to quantum theory, after an hour the cat is in a quantum superposition of coexisting alive and dead states. Yet when we look in the box we only see one of the states, not a mixture of them.

Theres a better description in Wikipedia, but basically quanta (sub atomic particles) co-exist in all possible states until observed. So the cat is both dead and not dead until observed at which point it will either be dead or alive. Of course presumable the cat can observe it's own state of mortality :biggrin:

Please note this is a hypothetical scenario - no cats have ever been gassed :)

Please note this is a hypothetical scenario - no cats have ever been gassed :)

That's because getting cats into boxes against their will is almost impossible.

Oops. Should have googled that. I believed that particular exp. related to reality having to be observed to exist, which I fell could relate to time. Thanks for the correction.it does... and although it doesn't directly relate to time, the implications of the "thought experiment" have shaped contemporary theories of quantum mechanics, which do indeed relatate to time (and space... and not being trapped by it). anyway, check out Many-worlds interpretation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many_worlds) or Multiverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) info for more on that (and then check out David Hume's ideas about free-will and determinism and think about how alternate realities might affect Lost).

anyway... i think a lot of the cutting-edge quantum mechanics fit really well with what's happening on Lost. even the healing stuff sort-of fits: some crack-pots beleive that certain properties of quantum mechanics can be harnessed to gain healing properties. that's definately getting away from real science and heading off to pseudo-science, though.

It was no flashback....this was something like the movie"The Butterrfly Effect".....kind of looks like that time traveling situation...

Thanks for the help, everyone. Physics is not my forte (more of a literature person, which also keeps me busy in this show :biggrin: ), but I knew there would be some help out there. That's why I like the 'lage so much! Since TPTB have indicated that the show is based on known science, I try to keep up a little. Lex

According to the just-released podcast, Desmond DID travel back in time.

So my theory is that the failsafe is designed to send whoever turns the key back in time to correct whatever events led up to the failsafe being used. But the Island/Ring Lady sent Desmond back (when he got hit on the head) because it was Important for him to be on the Island.

Discuss.

exactly... and they also say that in a "different incarnation" Penny gets the photo... is this confirmation of the time loop concept or the many worlds/multiverse concept?

sounds to me like they're saying he went back in time and changed things which resulted in multiple outcomes... one in which only he got the photo and another in which both get it (in a "twofer"). sounds like mutiverse to me (but i'm a proponent of that explanation anyway). although, "incarnation" could be time loop. maybe some sort of hybrid of both?

no word on his preminitions of the future, though.

I'm not sure it's either a time loop or a multiverse. If the failsafe sent him to the past to fix whatever went wrong, but he was then sent back to the Island (just after the implosion) by Ms. Hawking (or whatever force(s) she represents), then his original picture would be on the Island, but Penny could have gotten it the second time around.

In a quick TiVo review, Desmond's holding the picture when he breaks up with Penny but doesn't seem to be holding it after she walks away. I didn't see him give it to her, though.

Hi (first post, so be gentle).

On either view, the 'Time Loop' theory or 'Multi-Universe' theory, there are substantial difficulties.

Time-Loop.

- If Desmond travelled back to the past, then he had already been there, there should not have been any different events. Everything would have been identical, no qualms about buying the ring for instance. To think otherwise is to commit the second time around fallacy. The original 2000 (or whatever year it was) and the 2000 that Desmond finds himself in are one and the same, there is no 'second chance', and if Desmond did not buy the ring the first time round, he didn't buy it the second. To think otherwise flies in the face of physics. And as Scotty put it, "Ya Can't change the laws of physics, laws of physics, Jim!"

Multi-Verse.

- What would be the POINT? So, Desmond goes back, finds himself in a parallel universe, marries Penny, all is well. Unfortunately, this doesn't change anything for Desmond and the others back on the original time-line. You might reasonably wonder what his motivation is? Suppose Desmond knows that in a multi-verse scenario, his 'original' self is doomed to end up on the Island, then it's certainly odd to think he would want to change things in another universe.

The episode certainly LOOKED like time-travel, but the writers seem to have fallen prey to the second-time around fallacy. Yes, I know it's a t.v show, and hey, I like being entertained, but I'm also a philosopher for a living, and that means I'm prone to pedantry, and when some pretty big problems stand out, well ......

Hi (first post, so be gentle).

On either view, the 'Time Loop' theory or 'Multi-Universe' theory, there are substantial difficulties.

Time-Loop.

- If Desmond travelled back to the past, then he had already been there, there should not have been any different events. Everything would have been identical, no qualms about buying the ring for instance. To think otherwise is to commit the second time around fallacy. The original 2000 (or whatever year it was) and the 2000 that Desmond finds himself in are one and the same, there is no 'second chance', and if Desmond did not buy the ring the first time round, he didn't buy it the second. To think otherwise flies in the face of physics. And as Scotty put it, "Ya Can't change the laws of physics, laws of physics, Jim!"


Hi Barcode , welcome to The Fuselage, good first post. :biggrin:

I think what we have to take into acount is that the whole concept of travel in time brings together a number of conflicting viewpoints both in classical and quantum physics, philosophy, theology and god knows what other fields. I think we need to step outside the current thoughts of what is and in not possible and look at what the writers believe is possible in the lostiverse.

I'm not a physicist or a philiosopher (I'm a zoologist who works in insurance!). I think Lost is about redemption and that this is the point that desmond was given a second chance. The very fact that Desmond was aware that he was reliving the past, changed it regardless of any actions. His neural patterns would have been different, so if one thing has changed then why not everything. The problem I have with your point that if we travel back in time nothing can change is that if that were the case we could never therefore be aware we had travelled back in time.

In the context of Lost Desmond is aware he has travelled back in time and therefore it is possible in the Lostiverse at least to change things. He clearly tries and as Mrs Hawkins explains this is futile as the Universe course corrects its self. This suggests that minor changes are possible but the overiding forward momentum prevents the consequences and pulls the tangent time line back into the main stream. I think ultimately it is more about the dicotomy of fate versus free will that quantum mechanics.

It does of course also raise some interesting questions of who decides the course of the universe, God? Are there auditors (very Terry Pratchett / Red Dwarf) or is the universe ultimately sentient (a position which suits a good old fashioned pagan like me :) )

The fact that there are easter eggs isn't what invalidates the time travel idea. They were elements of surrealism to indicate just that--it wasn't real. To use just one of those items as an example, you are then endorsing a reality that says Big Ben doesn't tell time, it's always on 4:04. To use another, the painting that Claire's boyfriend was working on in 2004 already hangs on Widmore's wall when Des is there, which is sometime prior to 2001. Too tired to run through the others... but those aren't easter eggs for fun, they are indicators that it's not real.

One last thought: did Eko travel back in time? He had several conversations with his long-dead brother. Of course, that would be a preposterous idea. I only suggest it is very likely that the very same mechanism is what happened to Desmond. It's more suggested by the evidence provided and requires less speculation to get there.

and one last, last thought. If it was time travel, what is the purpose of the obvious Wizard of Oz reference within the flashback, and the parallel structure throughout? I guess it could be a red herring, but it struck me as such a huge theme that I can't see it not having a purpose.

The problem here is your not letting THEM tell the story--you want to tell the story

And thats why so many people flat out rejected what was in the script and on the screen. You mention Dorothy as if she is the only one to ever get hit on the head. Its a story device--its used all the time to place DOUBT whether its a dream or real.Am I concious or awake..the end of the story shows which.

They used this device along with all the other eggs to cast doubt...but then as with most of these type of stories--they DEBUNKED it in the end..its like no one wanted to accept the end so they just forgot the fact that they clearly debunked that it was a dream. You dont throw away the totality of a story, including its very clear ending, in favor of a clock that doesnt change or a pair of red shoes. Thats not seeing the forest through the trees

You mention OZ..but there were 3 movies referenced. The red shoes were a nod to OZ but also as a device to indentify the man that got killed. The Matrix(destiny, freewill) bench scene was clearly referenced with the chestnuts replacing the candy and Final destination with the course correction.

About the other comment you made suggesting they didnt craft the story right---that was a masterpeice in writing. Almost every word said something important

I will bet many people didnt even notice the significance of when the woman said--"First time..I can always recognize the first timers"

I would bet many people didnt notice all the reversals--like when Desmond couldnt tie his tie in the mirror and then Penny couldnt either--then right after that(many people noticed this) the room reverses

There was such depth to the writing I think it was one of the best epi's they ever wrote. 12 monkeys was very similiar, with every scene rich with meaning, in which he was questioning whether he was crazy or really back in time--Peggy Sue got married also had her Faint/experince mind timetravel as well/ enlist a Time travel buff for answers/ and relive an important part of her life.

anyway...Im glad they cleared it up. Because it may be lesson to just enjoy the show and except the story as They tell it.

The problem here is your not letting THEM tell the story--you want to tell the story

And thats why so many people flat out rejected what was in the script and on the screen. You mention Dorothy as if she is the only one to ever get hit on the head. Its a story device--its used all the time to place DOUBT whether its a dream or real.Am I concious or awake..the end of the story shows which.

They used this device along with all the other eggs to cast doubt...but then as with most of these type of stories--they DEBUNKED it in the end..its like no one wanted to accept the end so they just forgot the fact that they clearly debunked that it was a dream. You dont throw away the totality of a story, including its very clear ending, in favor of a clock that doesnt change or a pair of red shoes. Thats not seeing the forest through the trees

You mention OZ..but there were 3 movies referenced. The red shoes were a nod to OZ but also as a device to indentify the man that got killed. The Matrix(destiny, freewill) bench scene was clearly referenced with the chestnuts replacing the candy and Final destination with the course correction.

About the other comment you made suggesting they didnt craft the story right---that was a masterpeice in writing. Almost every word said something important

I will bet many people didnt even notice the significance of when the woman said--"First time..I can always recognize the first timers"

I would bet many people didnt notice all the reversals--like when Desmond couldnt tie his tie in the mirror and then Penny couldnt either--then right after that(many people noticed this) the room reverses

There was such depth to the writing I think it was one of the best epi's they ever wrote. 12 monkeys was very similiar, with every scene rich with meaning, in which he was questioning whether he was crazy or really back in time--Peggy Sue got married also had her Faint/experince mind timetravel as well/ enlist a Time travel buff for answers/ and relive an important part of her life.

anyway...Im glad they cleared it up. Because it may be lesson to just enjoy the show and except the story as They tell it.

How about Thomas painting in Widmore's office? How is that possible?

How about Thomas painting in Widmore's office? How is that possible?

What like it isn't possible for a painter in the US to sell his painter to a dealer that sells it someone in the UK.

It is another egg that just says the world is full of random collections. It is also a useful way of reusing props as the average (ie not us) viewer will not notice. My wife is a clever lady (did post-grad work at Cambridge) and she never notices any of the eggs - like John Burger said - she just watches the show :)

The problem here is your not letting THEM tell the story--you want to tell the story

And thats why so many people flat out rejected what was in the script and on the screen. You mention Dorothy as if she is the only one to ever get hit on the head. Its a story device--its used all the time to place DOUBT whether its a dream or real.Am I concious or awake..the end of the story shows which.

They used this device along with all the other eggs to cast doubt...but then as with most of these type of stories--they DEBUNKED it in the end..its like no one wanted to accept the end so they just forgot the fact that they clearly debunked that it was a dream. You dont throw away the totality of a story, including its very clear ending, in favor of a clock that doesnt change or a pair of red shoes. Thats not seeing the forest through the trees

You mention OZ..but there were 3 movies referenced. The red shoes were a nod to OZ but also as a device to indentify the man that got killed. The Matrix(destiny, freewill) bench scene was clearly referenced with the chestnuts replacing the candy and Final destination with the course correction.

About the other comment you made suggesting they didnt craft the story right---that was a masterpeice in writing. Almost every word said something important

I will bet many people didnt even notice the significance of when the woman said--"First time..I can always recognize the first timers"

I would bet many people didnt notice all the reversals--like when Desmond couldnt tie his tie in the mirror and then Penny couldnt either--then right after that(many people noticed this) the room reverses

There was such depth to the writing I think it was one of the best epi's they ever wrote. 12 monkeys was very similiar, with every scene rich with meaning, in which he was questioning whether he was crazy or really back in time--Peggy Sue got married also had her Faint/experince mind timetravel as well/ enlist a Time travel buff for answers/ and relive an important part of her life.

anyway...Im glad they cleared it up. Because it may be lesson to just enjoy the show and except the story as They tell it.

You're talking as if Lost had never shown a dream sequence in which future information was revealed. Locke seeing the drug plane crash, Eko seeing Ana-Lucia telling him to find Locke and "bring the axe", Locke seeing Eko climbing the cliff-face before finding The Pearl, Locke seeing Boone, etc etc.

It's not a case of the audience not letting the writers tell their story, it's a case of the audience remembering stuff from previous episodes and using that to decode this one. Not to mention the fact that Damon Lindelof who co-created this show explicitly stated "there is no time travel" in Lost.

But Desmond apparently did time travel, so whatever. Anything's possible on this show, no matter what the producers tell us. Can't wait for the aliens to arrive.

Can't wait for the aliens to arrive.

Who say's they haven't - according to the insiderscoop spoiler/foiler on Dark UFO's blog Jack's tattoo means "although he walks among us, he is not one of us"

Aaaaargh Jack's an Alien - run to the hills :biggrin:

What like it isn't possible for a painter in the US to sell his painter to a dealer that sells it someone in the UK.

It is another egg that just says the world is full of random collections. It is also a useful way of reusing props as the average (ie not us) viewer will not notice. My wife is a clever lady (did post-grad work at Cambridge) and she never notices any of the eggs - like John Burger said - she just watches the show :)

The problem is Thomas painted it in 2004 and Widmore had it in 1996 :confused:

The problem is Thomas painted it in 2004 and Widmore had it in 1996 :confused:

Um, OK maybe the one he painted in 2004 was a copy of the one he did 10 years earlier.

Or maybe we're not meant to notice stuff like that :biggrin:

Well, I'll admit that I was wrong then because I totally believed it was a dream influenced by the island, and all the little easter eggs made me believe it.

But now, if he really DID time travel, I guess that the ramifications of that fact is that this is probably how Penny knew to look for the island. I am guessing that after Desmond was conked on the head by the cricket bat in the new timeline, perhaps he forgot about his island memories and knowledge of the future, and he was doomed to make the decisions from the old timeline from that point forward? Perhaps this is how the universe course corrected, and prevented him from changing anything else.

Or, the failsafe sent his consciousness into his body in the past for a certain amount of time (Like in the movie, The Butterfly Effect), and the cricket bat to the head put him back in his present body. Cricket bat to the head is still the universe's way of "course correcting", insuring that not too much got changed.

Perhaps Penelope got clued in to Desmond's fate on the island after he left for his solo race around the world. Maybe Donovan (Desmond's friend who he told his story to at the pub) told Penelope everything after Desmond disappeared, causing her to put together the team to look for electromagnetic anomolies.

So confusing.

I agree with the part about the Jeweller being The Island. Or how "Isla" for short? :)

nice discussions.

also, lindelof and cuse said in the last ew issue that and i quote "he (desmond) is also the subject of a flashback device employed ''in a way we never have before and never will again,'' hints Lindelof. ''It'll either blow people's minds or chase them away for good.'

so it means that they will never use the time travel "
flashback" again?

I agree with the part about the Jeweller being The Island. Or how "Isla" for short? :)

But asuming Darlton are telling the truth and Desmond really did relive that part of his life and it was not 'in his mind' then how did the monster get off the island travel 10,000 odd miles to London and then set up a Jewelry shop, or did it kill the real Mrs Hawkins first (or was she just on holiday somewhere :) )

There seems to be a tendency to blame everything on the smoke monster, people were sure it took down the plane. I just don't buy it.

But asuming Darlton are telling the truth and Desmond really did relive that part of his life and it was not 'in his mind' then how did the monster get off the island travel 10,000 odd miles to London and then set up a Jewelry shop, or did it kill the real Mrs Hawkins first (or was she just on holiday somewhere :) )

There seems to be a tendency to blame everything on the smoke monster, people were sure it took down the plane. I just don't buy it.


The only explanation i can come up with is that it travelled with Desmond's consciousness. Why it ended up in the jewelry lady is anyone's guess...

The jewelry lady is definitely a puzzler.

The only explanation i can come up with is that it travelled with Desmond's consciousness. Why it ended up in the jewelry lady is anyone's guess...

The jewelry lady is definitely a puzzler.

Either it came back in his consciousness or it is possible that smokie is controlled by psychics in which case they could manipulate remotely anything anywhere(according to the Hieronymus Machine) in the world or possibly take control of someone(Mrs. Hawkings). Maybe only desmond could see her and a Psychic was inside his head messing with him.

The only explanation i can come up with is that it travelled with Desmond's consciousness. Why it ended up in the jewelry lady is anyone's guess...

The jewelry lady is definitely a puzzler.

If we assume that Desmond's travel through space and time has happened for other people also, then it could explain what the brain-washing video said backwards, Walt's "appearances", the jewelry lady and maybe even the "whispers".