The tragedy of the John Locke story is that he is, and always has been, a man of faith. In the real world, that faith was rewarded with tragedy after tragedy. Losing his kidney. Being completely spurned by his father. Losing Helen. Trusting Eddie.

And just when he feels like life can't possibly take anything more away from him, his father pushes him out a window in an attempted murder.

I think it was important that Locke doesn't even mention Cooper's name after the incident. He simply breaks down in tears in the hospital. He has nothing, nothing left at that point. No family, no future, and even his own body has been heartlessly mutilated. If it really is Cooper in that chair, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes now.

I think that the person in that chair is an image made for healing.

all i have to say is that after watching this episode, I can't help but say aloud "ohhhh, poor Locke....." every time i see him.

my heart just breaks seeing all of this tragedy in his life. :(

I find it utterly amazing that Locke kept his faith that long after all this tragedy.

He sorta went nutty there with the button, but as mentioned in a previous thread he was probably manipulated.

John's fight with his faith has always been extremely interesting to me as part of the show. And now that "The Island" has given him this "gift" of having Cooper right in front of him, so that he may get whatever kind of revenge he wishes, I'm really hoping that he does what he did when he thought Cooper was dead.

I hope that he just forgives him.

I love the struggle that is John Locke's character (and the fact that TOQ is brilliant at bringing him to life).. The fact that he continues to have faith in anything is a miracle after all he's been through.. At this point he is nearing martyrdom...

I loved the fact that he even continues to have faith in his fellow man... He said to Sayid (something like..) "It's Jack - this is someone who when I first saw him was pulling people out of a burning airplane... "

However it should be pointed out that post-crash, the faith he has is really in the island. From a religious standpoint this could be considered idolatry - or praying to false gods... I've wondered for some time if this will come back to haunt him...

Faith is not his tragedy. Faith is his strength. Like ame said, without it, he would have ended his life long ago. Something inside him, a belief that his life had meaning which is essentially what faith is, kept him going and got him through despite his hardships. Sometimes blind faith has led him into trouble, but when he keeps the balance, he is stronger. Faith will save Locke in the end.

Well, his faith in itself is not tragic. But it was rewarded with tragedy, sort of like the old saying that "no good deed goes unpunished." That was before the island. The transformation on the island is that now his faith is what gives him purpose and a spiritual connection to the world. The island "works" for Locke for this reason, which is why I don't believe he'll ever want to leave it.

Well, his faith in itself is not tragic. But it was rewarded with tragedy, sort of like the old saying that "no good deed goes unpunished." That was before the island. The transformation on the island is that now his faith is what gives him purpose and a spiritual connection to the world. The island "works" for Locke for this reason, which is why I don't believe he'll ever want to leave it.

I think that all depends on how you look at it. Does God make bad things happen or does He give us the strength to overcome them? (Actually both, but I won't go into that here). Were the bad thngs "a punishment" like some people believe or just some incomprehensible act of the universe at work? Personally, I don't believe Locke's tragedies were a kick in the teeth for having faith. I believe tragedy strikes everyone, but a person without faith might have been completely struck down and Locke persevered. He's no different now than he ever was, he just appears to be having less tragedy so he thinks he is now being rewarded. This concept of reward and punishment is a very paganistic view of faith.

I don't know if anyone else has posted about this, but every Locke-centric episode I am astounded by the two completely different personas he has. There is his doormat, pushover, easily gullible, Real World John. Then there is the leader, philosopher, guru, and all around handy-man Island Locke.

Now, Island Locke still has some of the easily gullible qualities that Real World John had, only they are geared more towards the possibilities of the island, and not the people inhabiting it. Until he meets Ben, who uses this flaw against him, as his father did.

I'm not quite sure what I am getting at here so feel free to elaborate on my idea, but I feel that this sort of dual-personality he has will definitely come to a head when we are allowed to see what happens when both personalities clash upon speaking with his 'father' in an upcoming episode

I don't know if anyone else has posted about this, but every Locke-centric episode I am astounded by the two completely different personas he has. There is his doormat, pushover, easily gullible, Real World John. Then there is the leader, philosopher, guru, and all around handy-man Island Locke.

Now, Island Locke still has some of the easily gullible qualities that Real World John had, only they are geared more towards the possibilities of the island, and not the people inhabiting it. Until he meets Ben, who uses this flaw against him, as his father did.

I'm not quite sure what I am getting at here so feel free to elaborate on my idea, but I feel that this sort of dual-personality he has will definitely come to a head when we are allowed to see what happens when both personalities clash upon speaking with his 'father' in an upcoming episode

I think that no matter how together and confident a person is out in the real world, when a person gets together with their parents, they are 12 again. Parents have the ability to tap into all of our insecurities about ourselves. Locke will regress, but I don't think it's a matter of there being two Lockes. Like all of us, we have many aspects but on the whole are more than the sum of our parts. Locke's faith will get him through like it always has. He hasn't changed.

I think that all depends on how you look at it. Does God make bad things happen or does He give us the strength to overcome them? (Actually both, but I won't go into that here). Were the bad thngs "a punishment" like some people believe or just some incomprehensible act of the universe at work? Personally, I don't believe Locke's tragedies were a kick in the teeth for having faith. I believe tragedy strikes everyone, but a person without faith might have been completely struck down and Locke persevered. He's no different now than he ever was, he just appears to be having less tragedy so he thinks he is now being rewarded. This concept of reward and punishment is a very paganistic view of faith.I think you're taking a more religious view of it than I am. I'm more or less just taling about a series of coincidences, because I think a major dichotomy in the series is randomness vs. meaning.

Everything related to the Island has specific meaning, which is why the Losties have all the connections in real life-- they were meant to end up on the Island, they are connected to it and thus to each other. But the world itself is chaotic, which is why the Losties don't fit in it. The Island makes order from chaos, almost like a deity (and indeed, it is increasingly treated like a deity by Locke, the man with the most faith on the show).

So in my view, Locke has a series of tragedies pre-crash because he is trying to apply his faith to the world at large, and the world rebuffs him again and again. But his faith WORKS on the Island, because the Island functions on the power of belief. Only when Locke begins to lose his faith does a disaster happen on the island. So you have the opposite situation of the rest of the world.

I don't know if anyone else has posted about this, but every Locke-centric episode I am astounded by the two completely different personas he has. There is his doormat, pushover, easily gullible, Real World John. Then there is the leader, philosopher, guru, and all around handy-man Island Locke.I think you're right about this, but again, it's more about the dichotomy between the Island and the rest of the world than it is about two sides of Locke's personality. His personality "meshes" with life on the Island because faith is rewarded on the Island, whereas the rest of the world is chaotic and random, leading Locke's faith to cause a series of tragedies for him.

I think you're taking a more religious view of it than I am. I'm more or less just taling about a series of coincidences, because I think a major dichotomy in the series is randomness vs. meaning.

Everything related to the Island has specific meaning, which is why the Losties have all the connections in real life-- they were meant to end up on the Island, they are connected to it and thus to each other. But the world itself is chaotic, which is why the Losties don't fit in it. The Island makes order from chaos, almost like a deity (and indeed, it is increasingly treated like a deity by Locke, the man with the most faith on the show).

So in my view, Locke has a series of tragedies pre-crash because he is trying to apply his faith to the world at large, and the world rebuffs him again and again. But his faith WORKS on the Island, because the Island functions on the power of belief. Only when Locke begins to lose his faith does a disaster happen on the island. So you have the opposite situation of the rest of the world.

I think you're right about this, but again, it's more about the dichotomy between the Island and the rest of the world than it is about two sides of Locke's personality. His personality "meshes" with life on the Island because faith is rewarded on the Island, whereas the rest of the world is chaotic and random, leading Locke's faith to cause a series of tragedies for him.


I guess that works if you really believe the world off the island is chaotic and random. That's where we take different views. If you believe as I do that there is order everywhere, Locke is just learning a lesson through the demonstration of miracles on the island that he can then apply to his real life. Some people need very large and obvious miracles to believe.

I guess that works if you really believe the world off the island is chaotic and random. That's where we take different views. If you believe as I do that there is order everywhere, Locke is just learning a lesson through the demonstration of miracles on the island that he can then apply to his real life. Some people need very large and obvious miracles to believe.Keep in mind too that I'm not necessarily talking about my views of the real world, but just the difference between the rest of the world and the Island as they are depicted on the show. I'm not going to delve into my personal religious or philosophical beliefs, but I just wanted to make that distinction.

I'm genuinely curious to see if what has happened and is going to happen to Locke post-crash is some sort of reward he's getting from the island, or if it's just another, possibly the longest, con.

Rick

Keep in mind too that I'm not necessarily talking about my views of the real world, but just the difference between the rest of the world and the Island as they are depicted on the show. I'm not going to delve into my personal religious or philosophical beliefs, but I just wanted to make that distinction.

Sure. But it's still hard to not see things from your own perspective.

Faith is not his tragedy. Faith is his strength. Like ame said, without it, he would have ended his life long ago. Something inside him, a belief that his life had meaning which is essentially what faith is, kept him going and got him through despite his hardships. Sometimes blind faith has led him into trouble, but when he keeps the balance, he is stronger. Faith will save Locke in the end.


Excellent post. I agree. After all that's happened to him, and all he's lost or never had in the first place, he should have killed himself a long time ago, but he didn't. And that's what's miraculous about John Locke. His perserverence. Even though he seems to hate life pre-island, he keeps moving along. And then he is suddenly exponentially rewarded. I don't think Locke's story is a tragedy. I think part of it is, but it takes a major turning point. I think it's inspirational. He has his obstacles and issues with moving on on the island, just like anyone else, but ultimately he will make things good in the end. You can just feel it. Or at least I can. Not sure whether this point is relevant to the OP or not, but you decide.

I think that no matter how together and confident a person is out in the real world, when a person gets together with their parents, they are 12 again. Parents have the ability to tap into all of our insecurities about ourselves. Locke will regress, but I don't think it's a matter of there being two Lockes. Like all of us, we have many aspects but on the whole are more than the sum of our parts. Locke's faith will get him through like it always has. He hasn't changed.

No, no. I lost my meaning I think. I wasn't alluding to there being two Lockes, what I meant was I was intrigued at how differently he acts in the two different points in his life. To me he seemed like more of a follower pre-island, determined to accept the rotten things thrown at him and live with it, and the present day Locke, who seems to make his own paths for others to follow. That is why I say Ben exploited the weaknesses he knew locke had beforehand, and probably why Patchy was also about to say something about the "Locke he knew"

No, no. I lost my meaning I think. I wasn't alluding to there being two Lockes, what I meant was I was intrigued at how differently he acts in the two different points in his life. To me he seemed like more of a follower pre-island, determined to accept the rotten things thrown at him and live with it, and the present day Locke, who seems to make his own paths for others to follow. That is why I say Ben exploited the weaknesses he knew locke had beforehand, and probably why Patchy was also about to say something about the "Locke he knew"

He was about to say the Locke he knew was paralyzed. I understood what you were saying but I don't believe that the Locke we see on the island is fundamentally any different than pre-island Locke. He is still highly amenable to suggestion and coercion. He always had faith that he was destined for greatness, even when he was suffering hard times. I think that's what pulled him through. He still has the same weaknesses he's always had though.