This is starting to make sense to me now. If you allow that Locke's father may have not been "really him" but Smokey, then the next step is to assume that the Others control/work with Smokey.

This could explain why they know everything about the Losties.

Why would anyone think that Locke's father is actually 'Smokey' pretending to be so? Seems like a stretch doesn't it?

Smokey has already been proven to take the shape of a person (Ecko's brother). What's more likely to be true:
A) That the Others have a 30 page personnel file on every surviving member of the flight and that Ben tracked down, bound and gagged Locke's Father to manipulate Locke? Manipulating Locke is too easy to go through all of that.
B) That Ben really has a "magic box" that makes all of your wishes come true?
C) Or, that the Smoke monster who takes the form of people/animals, and has the ability to "read" people is a tool of Ben's group and was staged like Locke's father?

For now I'll take C. But if anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears.

I think it's far more likely to be true that Cooper is on the island tied to a chair, whether he's there because of Locke/Swyer or some other reason there are plenty of theories in other threads. It's no more fanciful than Jack and his half sister being on the island at the same time. Everyone is connected according to this show and coincidence is the norm.

I don't remember Smokey taking corporeal forms, I think he can conjure up apparitions for people, based on their memories, but I don't think we've seen any evidence that Smokey can actually change himself into a guy tied to a chair.

From lostpedia:
"Carlton Cuse (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Carlton_Cuse) says, "Well then, Yemi [/URL]might be a manifestation that the island has generated. Perhaps an incarnation of the Monster?" to which [URL="http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof"]Damon Lindelof (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Yemi) replies, "All of the manifestations seem to have come from Eko's memory. So, could one assume that when they last faced off, that all those flashes that happened in the Monster cloud, that it was sort of 'downloading information' that it might want to use at a future date?"

It's still possible I suppose but I don't think it's been confirmed at all. Personally I don't think anyone else can see those apparitions, I doubt anyone else could see Yemi but Eko.

Right now I'm of two minds as to the mysteries surrounding all of this:

1. Smokey is all over the place. It was the Horse Kate saw, and the cat that Sayid saw. It was Eko's brother, and (may be) Locke's Father (although he could just as legitimately have been there through a number of other means.) This would lead me to believe that Smokey is a product of the Island for analyzing and manipulating its inhabitants. Whether the others have control of this, or just an understanding of it is hard to guess at.

2. Smokey has nothing to do with it, and there is some kind of manifestation "device" or "portal" (we already know that there was some crazy stuff happening in the hatch, who's to say that the other (6?) hatches aren't even crazier?

Either way is somewhat crazy. My question has always been what smokey represents to the writers. It is obviously a metaphor for some greater idea, as this show is often so well written.

I mentioned this in another post as to why the others have so much info on the losties. Since suppoedly what patchy said was true (except that he was Dharma), perhaps the others thought that after the so called purging, that the losties were dharma repalcements. They infiltraded them to find out who they really were to make sure that it was just a random plane ccident and not dharma spies...

also, although anything is possible in Lost, I can't believe that good old smoaky is locke's dad. as someone said early, I think smoaky just manifests itself and appears to certain people in that form......



Smokey has already been proven to take the shape of a person (Ecko's brother). What's more likely to be true:
A) That the Others have a 30 page personnel file on every surviving member of the flight and that Ben tracked down, bound and gagged Locke's Father to manipulate Locke? Manipulating Locke is too easy to go through all of that.
B) That Ben really has a "magic box" that makes all of your wishes come true?
C) Or, that the Smoke monster who takes the form of people/animals, and has the ability to "read" people is a tool of Ben's group and was staged like Locke's father?

For now I'll take C. But if anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears.

The horse was just a horse wasn't it? Both Kate and Sawyer saw it and she petted it. The cat Sayid saw was Mikhail's cat, everyone else saw it.

That's very different from the encounters we've seen with apparitions like Jack's Dad or Locke seeing whatisname pointing.

I think the monster creates the apparitions but I don't think they're actually physcially real. I think the horse was just a horse. We've see other horses on the island, we've seen polar bears for that matter.

The cat and horse are just dramatic devices to tie in with a character's flashback.

I think it's Smokey taking on the form of many things on the island, including the horse, jack's dad, yemi, perhaps even vincent.

The fact that Kate pet the horse doesn't exclude it from being Smokey in my mind, since we know that Eko handed Yemi his cross necklace back and he held it, indicating physical form.

Eko handed Yemi his cross necklace back and he held it, indicating physical form.
But no one saw him do it, which doesn't mean it *had* to be real, he could have just been standing there staring into the distance if anyone else had been watching. Sawyer was there watching Kate interact physcially with the horse (along with the guy holding the reigns ;))

I'm not convinced that anything Smokey conjures up is physical. It's possible, but so is anything on the island, and I've not seen any evidence of it. All of Smokey's apparitions have had this mysterious purpose and behaviour.

Smokey has already been proven to take the shape of a person (Ecko's brother). What's more likely to be true:
A) That the Others have a 30 page personnel file on every surviving member of the flight and that Ben tracked down, bound and gagged Locke's Father to manipulate Locke? Manipulating Locke is too easy to go through all of that.
B) That Ben really has a "magic box" that makes all of your wishes come true?
C) Or, that the Smoke monster who takes the form of people/animals, and has the ability to "read" people is a tool of Ben's group and was staged like Locke's father?

For now I'll take C. But if anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears.
I like choice "A" above. Is manipulating Locke that easy if Locke is in a wheelchair? What if you use Cooper's read on Locke to reproduce or 'smoke-out' walking Locke? Then you have this powerful tool, Locke's mobility, to manipulate him with. You can even temporarily take it away, as happened once.

But no one saw him do it, which doesn't mean it *had* to be real, he could have just been standing there staring into the distance if anyone else had been watching. Sawyer was there watching Kate interact physcially with the horse (along with the guy holding the reigns ;))

I'm not convinced that anything Smokey conjures up is physical. It's possible, but so is anything on the island, and I've not seen any evidence of it. All of Smokey's apparitions have had this mysterious purpose and behaviour.

Of course it's possible that since no one saw him do it that nothing was there, but you could say that for every single thing then.

Plus, if Smokey takes on Vincent's form (as I suspect it might) then that would say for sure that others can see/touch/feel him.

As you say, there is no absolute proof either way, but I think Smokey can take physical form. We already know that it can grab onto people (both Eko and Locke) so I don't think it's that far of a leap to think that the shapes it takes would also be physical in nature.

We know that the others have a file on Jack(and presumably on all the Losties). Why is so inconceivable that the others kidnapped Cooper(Locke's dad), for future Locke manipulation.

After the Eko death episode people were jumping all over the theory, that everything on the Island is a manifestation of Smokey. The only manifestation that seems most clearly to be Smokey is Yemi.

I don't think so. We know from one of the posted "whispers" transcripts (specifically, the one wherein the Oceanic 815 pilot is eaten) that the Whispers seem to control or exert some amount of influence over Smokey, and I'm getting the feeling that the Whispers are working AGAINST the Others. Or at least against Ben's group. Rousseau claimed that the Whispers ARE the Others but we now know that isn't true; she's just crazy. :biggrin:

Evidence: 1. The Whispers warned of an impending Other attack on the Tailie party right before Cindy was snatched.

2. Smokey tried to warn Jack, Kate & Locke about Walt's abduction by showing images of Tom's motor boat and its occupants. (To no avail, they were on the ground and didn't see it.)

It is possible that the Whispers right before an Other attack are an attempt at warning; it seems more likely now that we know that the Others are human beings and not mystically-charged or anything.

When did #2 occur...? when did smaoky try and warn them about Walt??


I don't think so. We know from one of the posted "whispers" transcripts (specifically, the one wherein the Oceanic 815 pilot is eaten) that the Whispers seem to control or exert some amount of influence over Smokey, and I'm getting the feeling that the Whispers are working AGAINST the Others. Or at least against Ben's group. Rousseau claimed that the Whispers ARE the Others but we now know that isn't true; she's just crazy. :biggrin:

Evidence: 1. The Whispers warned of an impending Other attack on the Tailie party right before Cindy was snatched.

2. Smokey tried to warn Jack, Kate & Locke about Walt's abduction by showing images of Tom's motor boat and its occupants. (To no avail, they were on the ground and didn't see it.)

It is possible that the Whispers right before an Other attack are an attempt at warning; it seems more likely now that we know that the Others are human beings and not mystically-charged or anything.

Of course it's possible that since no one saw him do it that nothing was there, but you could say that for every single thing then.
You could yes, but it could also be true. Sawyer and Kate saw the horse, the cat was seen by several people and picked up by Mikhail. The other 'apparitions' weren't shared by anyone.

I don't see why 'Smokey' would be Vincent, that just seems fanciful.
100%

2. Smokey tried to warn Jack, Kate & Locke about Walt's abduction by showing images of Tom's motor boat and its occupants. (To no avail, they were on the ground and didn't see it.)

Yeah, when did that happen?

We know that the others have a file on Jack(and presumably on all the Losties). Why is so inconceivable that the others kidnapped Cooper(Locke's dad), for future Locke manipulation.

After the Eko death episode people were jumping all over the theory, that everything on the Island is a manifestation of Smokey. The only manifestation that seems most clearly to be Smokey is Yemi.

While not inconceivable, it's just that I don't think that's what happened. I think that the whole idea that Smokey scans people's memories and we have seen it do it to both Locke and Eko and then Yemi appeared to be Smokey-generated, I just don't think Cooper is really there. Also, I give Ben a lot more credit than having to actually produce Cooper in order to manipulate Locke. He seems to be able to do a decent enough job of that without the help. Maybe Locke is more on top of his game than he was back when Ben was pretending to be Henry, but at the very least Ben was playing Locke like a fiddle when they were in the Swan. In fact, if they could just kidnap people in order to manipulate them, why didn't Ben just kidnap Sara so he could manipulate Jack to perform his surgery?? The counter to that is, why not just have Smokey conjure her up? Beats me!!

Cooper may very well actually be on the island, I'm just saying that it is possible that he is not.

While not inconceivable, it's just that I don't think that's what happened. I think that the whole idea that Smokey scans people's memories and we have seen it do it to both Locke and Eko and then Yemi appeared to be Smokey-generated, I just don't think Cooper is really there. Also, I give Ben a lot more credit than having to actually produce Cooper in order to manipulate Locke. He seems to be able to do a decent enough job of that without the help. Maybe Locke is more on top of his game than he was back when Ben was pretending to be Henry, but at the very least Ben was playing Locke like a fiddle when they were in the Swan. In fact, if they could just kidnap people in order to manipulate them, why didn't Ben just kidnap Sara so he could manipulate Jack to perform his surgery?? The counter to that is, why not just have Smokey conjure her up? Beats me!!

Cooper may very well actually be on the island, I'm just saying that it is possible that he is not.
Behind all this is the fact that Locke can walk, although he was in a wheelchair on the plane. This puzzle hasn't been solved, and in some way seems to be connected to Cooper being on the island.

Behind all this is the fact that Locke can walk, although he was in a wheelchair on the plane. This puzzle hasn't been solved, and in some way seems to be connected to Cooper being on the island.


That just raises another interesting question, and it may be getting off topic a bit. The other puzzle that remains unsolved is how Rose was rid of her cancer on the island. Rose knows that Locke was in a wheelchair pre-crash, but does Locke know about Rose?

How does Cooper being on the island cure Locke's paralysis?

That just raises another interesting question, and it may be getting off topic a bit. The other puzzle that remains unsolved is how Rose was rid of her cancer on the island. Rose knows that Locke was in a wheelchair pre-crash, but does Locke know about Rose?

How does Cooper being on the island cure Locke's paralysis?
This is a stretch, no doubt. Cooper's memories of Locke are of a walking Locke, not a paralyzed Locke. I've noticed that the smoke monster seems to read character's minds before it manifests things--the manifestations aren't randomly produced, they each have a purpose. So the only explanation I see for Locke's cure so far, given what we know, is that Locke's change is actually a planned manifestation of the Locke before the fall. The real Locke is still paralyzed, which is why in one episode Locke almost reverts back to that state. So Ben has used Cooper to manipulate Locke, which seems to have worked. What other explanations are there for Locke's cure? If true, we may never know, since Ben would want to keep it a secret.