In this episode, Locke demanded Alex take him to the sub. Which was in some dock on the shoreline. Right?

Ok so my question is, where the heck are they? They are in Other Villaige that we saw in the s3 premiere right??? (show in the link)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

So please explain how Alex took Locke to any shoreline on the island in what appeared to be minutes (definately less than hours since it's still nightfall) considering where other village is located AND considering how long it took the Losties to get there originally


Sorry folks, to me, this one is a little too big to ignore.

In this episode, Locke demanded Alex take him to the sub. Which was in some dock on the shoreline. Right?

Ok so my question is, where the heck are they? They are in Other Villaige that we saw in the s3 premiere right??? (show in the link)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

So please explain how Alex took Locke to any shoreline on the island in what appeared to be minutes (definately less than hours since it's still nightfall) considering where other village is located AND considering how long it took the Losties to get there originally


Sorry folks, to me, this one is a little too big to ignore.

Think about it from the opposite direction. We live in a 3D world, brotha, we don't know what's behind the "camera" in that shot. On top of that, look at this picture:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=89991&fullsize=1

Pay specific attention to the painting over Benry's head. It looks like the opposite side of the basin where the barracks are located, with shoreline clearly visible.

Think about it from the opposite direction. We live in a 3D world, brotha, we don't know what's behind the "camera" in that shot. On top of that, look at this picture:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=89991&fullsize=1

Pay specific attention to the painting over Benry's head. It looks like the opposite side of the basin where the barracks are located, with shoreline clearly visible.


I think you should look at my picture again
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

Those little patches are where the villiage is located as shown in "A Tale of Two Cities" We know from that shot the entire surroundings of that village. Assuming the water is right behind where the camera is taking that shot it would take a hella long time to get there. More than one night. Don't forget, Jack go to that dock too after talking with Ben. Again all within the night.

Your link is just to a painting. I'm not sure what significance that would have over what is presumed to be a real time shot of the village. (done with cgi of course)

You're taking this screencap from the season 3 premier as evidence in favor of your claim, but are omitting the lines from the very same scene which contradict it!

Ben - "If you run, you should be able to make that shore in an hour."

The real issue is how they got through the fence. I'm sure this discrepency was intentonal, because the orientatoin of the fence was just laid out in the previous episode. I think this is just another mystery, that will get an answer somewhere down the line.

You've got to be kidding me. You don't launch a sub from the ocean shore. There has to be some sort of canal that goes from the ocean to Othersville, probably too small or hidden by the trees to see in your screencap. Plus, it would make sense for the sub to be within the fence in order for it to be protected. Why is everything a plot hole when common sense works so well. :undecide:

Look at your picture again:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

Look at the hill directly behind the village, getting behind that hill would take about 20 minutes.
There's the beach we saw.

-Exodus

hmmmmmmmm not sure about this , seems big plothole if there isnt water near

Ben - "If you run, you should be able to make that shore in an hour."


That pretty much sums it up for me.

Let's consider things this way. Without the "aerial sequence" in A Tale of Two Cities, everything is fairly consistent. The Losties took long to reach Othersville because they were coming from inland, and the distance between the Barracks and the submarine may be short if the submarine's location is "behind" Othersville from the direction the Losties were coming.

Losties came from here - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> [Othersville] - - - - - - - - - -> [Submarine]


The "zooming out" scene in A Tale of Two Cities is meant to surprise the viewer, is meant to be a "whoa, I didn't see that coming" scene and, in my opinion, the only purpose it serves is to show that what we thought was happening in the outside world (Juliet's introductory scenes) was actually taking place in another region of the island. If we start considering that screencap as a starting point to draw a real map of the area, we're only going to be disappointed, because many details don't really add up. But if we think that the only function of the zooming out sequence in A Tale of Two Cities was to illustrate that the Others live on the opposite side of the same island where the Losties crashed, well, that was effective per se – and I wouldn't read too much into it.

Rick

Let's consider things this way. Without the "aerial sequence" in A Tale of Two Cities, everything is fairly consistent. The Losties took long to reach Othersville because they were coming from inland, and the distance between the Barracks and the submarine may be short if the submarine's location is "behind" Othersville from the direction the Losties were coming.

Losties came from here - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> [Othersville] - - - - - - - - - -> [Submarine]


The "zooming out" scene in A Tale of Two Cities is meant to surprise the viewer, is meant to be a "whoa, I didn't see that coming" scene and, in my opinion, the only purpose it serves is to show that what we thought was happening in the outside world (Juliet's introductory scenes) was actually taking place in another region of the island. If we start considering that screencap as a starting point to draw a real map of the area, we're only going to be disappointed, because many details don't really add up. But if we think that the only function of the zooming out sequence in A Tale of Two Cities was to illustrate that the Others live on the opposite side of the same island where the Losties crashed, well, that was effective per se – and I wouldn't read too much into it.

Rick


I think that's REALLY letting TPTB off easy on this. You are right the zoom out was a plot device meant to shock the viewer, but any good storyteller would tell you that you shouldn't use a twist simply for the sake of a twist. If you find you can't stay consistent to the new plot direction you have taken with this twist then you are, in essence, creating a slipperly slope that leads to poor/sloppy storytelling.

By your explanation, the writers can never address the Anthony Cooper situations again. Why? Because his appearance in 'the box' was only meant to shock the viewer and serve as a twist that most viewers didn't see coming. Same as the island zoom out. They made no promises to stay consistent with that story down the road.


I know its' an extreme (bordering on stupid) analogy but it is true. When I saw the zoom out in aToTC, I was surprised but also excited as we got this new answer, of a location for where the Others live. They were in a valley in the middle of the desert that is unlikely to have been discovered by our LOSTIES by the way the 2 sections of the plane crashed. This made sense to me and was phenomenal revelation. I think it is absurd to now deny this revelation now because it became inconvenient for their story.

I still don't see a problem with a canal from the northeast leading into the area behind the hill.

The second issue raised about that picture is where is the damn fence...
Fence is supposed to reach all around after all.
Personally i just don't see it as likely something like that not coming up in the writers room.
Ok I've never heard what goes on in the writer room of this show,
but listen to the ones from other shows like Battlestar,
every angle and viewer option is discussed to excess.

So referring to the fence that supposedly reaches all around Othersville,
but cant be seen at all on the areal photo.
When you think about it, it makes no sense for that fence to be inside the valley surrounding othersville, once u get in there you can see straight into the encampment after all, so the fence has to reach around outside of the hills.

-Exodus

You're taking this screencap from the season 3 premier as evidence in favor of your claim, but are omitting the lines from the very same scene which contradict it!

Ben - "If you run, you should be able to make that shore in an hour."



Here is where I stand with this. Writing that line for Ben, seconds before panning out to show the island, you tend to think there is a reason to explain this. Perhaps they have an underground system of tunnels or something. Whatver it is, no amateur, let alone a pro television writer would put in such a contradictory line mere seconds after zooming out. So I was giving them leeway on that, figuring there will be an explanation for why Ben predicted one hour.


However this is 13 episodes later. By a different set of writers. And no plausible explanation I can really see. I also don't buy the 'canal covered by the trees' thing because the dock was in wide open water, certainly visible overhead and not many tiny canals are deep enough to hold a submarine and not be seen overhead.

Covered by trees?

What trees?

Its behind the HILL!

-Exodus

Here is where I stand with this. Writing that line for Ben, seconds before panning out to show the island, you tend to think there is a reason to explain this. Perhaps they have an underground system of tunnels or something. Whatver it is, no amateur, let alone a pro television writer would put in such a contradictory line mere seconds after zooming out. So I was giving them leeway on that, figuring there will be an explanation for why Ben predicted one hour.


However this is 13 episodes later. By a different set of writers. And no plausible explanation I can really see. I also don't buy the 'canal covered by the trees' thing because the dock was in wide open water, certainly visible overhead and not many tiny canals are deep enough to hold a submarine and not be seen overhead.

A different set of writers means nothing. All the same writers work on each episode (breaking them down, etc.) but one or one pair writes the actual script, and usually the Executive Producers can then take a pass at it. It's not like the writers of this episode independently came up with this episode without the rest of the writing team. That's not how it works. Regardless, look how small the village is in that screen cap. Of course there could be a canal covered by trees. There could be a river, a dirt road, a whole lot could be covered by those trees considering how far away "the camera" is, or like the others who responded it could behind the hill on the right hand side of the screen. More importantly, don't you think the sub would be protected within the boundry of the fence? Why leave it unprotected sitting at a dock a mile away? I think the sub is supposed to be quite close to Othersville within the barricade and the sub can bypass it underwater or something along those lines. Until I'm shown otherwise, that's my thought on it. You have been given three possibilities, all of which you reject. That's fine, but to say there is "no plausible explanation" is just silly.

Pardon me, but the duh factor is overwhelming here. Please note the areas marked "subterranean passage" on the wiring map. Not having to navigate through jungle would allow someone to walk a mile in 20 minutes without breathing hard.

I've written this elsewhere, but by my best orientation from the overhead shot of Othersville and the wiring map, there is a subterranean tunnel that cuts almost straight to the left of the overhead shot and theoretically under the mountain range. How far as the bird flies would it take to cut under that mountain? If the camera panned left, would you see the ocean directly on the other side? Maybe.

The bottom line is that if you aren't navigating jungle and are having a gingerly stroll in an underground tunnel, you can cover much ground very quickly.

Good point about the underground passage way. I had forgot about that. Another possibility for sure. I think some people are looking at the areal view as if it was an overhead shotlooking straight down on the village. There is a mountain near the city I live in. If I go up to the top and look out across the land, all I see are trees (and high rises extending higher than the trees). I can see everything right at the base of the mountain, but I don't see the 3 different interstate systems that are quite close, the lakes, the rivers, high school football fields, etc. When you are down off the mountain and say on the interestate, which is quite wide, the trees don't seem to cover that much. What I'm trying to get at is, the at that height the view can be quite decieving. Think of the computer generated areal shot as if it were a real shot of that area, where everything would not be as easily visible as you might think. Obviously, it is computer generated and can be manipulated to show whatever they want but that would not be realistic. Again, I think people are just looking for things to complain about if this is truly an issue for them.

This discussion reraises another timeline question I had, but haven't found a related thread for.

Ben told Ethan that he can make the shore in an hour if he runs. (Tale of two Cities)

Ana told Ethan that he came out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash. (48 Days)

These are far from being insignificant scenes in the series and the writers didn't have to mention time in either instance, but they did and they don't jive. I'm totally fine with it if it's just a continuity error, but it seems like it might have been written this way on purpose.

Here is where I stand with this. Writing that line for Ben, seconds before panning out to show the island, you tend to think there is a reason to explain this. Perhaps they have an underground system of tunnels or something. Whatver it is, no amateur, let alone a pro television writer would put in such a contradictory line mere seconds after zooming out. So I was giving them leeway on that, figuring there will be an explanation for why Ben predicted one hour.


However this is 13 episodes later. By a different set of writers. And no plausible explanation I can really see. I also don't buy the 'canal covered by the trees' thing because the dock was in wide open water, certainly visible overhead and not many tiny canals are deep enough to hold a submarine and not be seen overhead.

That is actually a really (less the Writes being amateurs comment) nice observation, I completely disagree however hopefully this will help you with your question regarding the screencap.. :)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KHJk2O5rGw
100%
This discussion reraises another timeline question I had, but haven't found a related thread for.

Ben told Ethan that he can make the shore in an hour if he runs. (Tale of two Cities)

Ana told Ethan that he came out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash. (48 Days)

These are far from being insignificant scenes in the series and the writers didn't have to mention time in either instance, but they did and they don't jive. I'm totally fine with it if it's just a continuity error, but it seems like it might have been written this way on purpose.

This actually a much better question, why did Ana say that, perhaps that was mistake? However she was in the water for at least twenty minutes real time, lol tv real time....condensed into five....lol, I'll go with continuity error unless someone else come up with a better explanation. :)

This discussion reraises another timeline question I had, but haven't found a related thread for.

Ben told Ethan that he can make the shore in an hour if he runs. (Tale of two Cities)

Ana told Ethan that he came out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash. (48 Days)

These are far from being insignificant scenes in the series and the writers didn't have to mention time in either instance, but they did and they don't jive. I'm totally fine with it if it's just a continuity error, but it seems like it might have been written this way on purpose.

Do you mean Goodwin?? Because he was sent to Ana's section of the crash. Ethan was with the other Losties. (not that it makes a difference, I understand your point, just wanted to clarify :) )

MOD EDIT *** everyone always take the creators for idiots and tink that theyre smarter than them ... its a tv show dont overanalyze it

Using underground passages also explains why the Others don't leave footprints - which hasn't been mentioned for a while.

As for the sub, a canal into Othersville seems the most likely of the theories put forward.

Yeah, I meant Goodwin! I'm always getting those two backwards for some reason like Scott and Steve.

Using underground passages also explains why the Others don't leave footprints - which hasn't been mentioned for a while.

As for the sub, a canal into Othersville seems the most likely of the theories put forward.

I think a dry passage out to the dock (which is probably naturally deep water or dredged to support a sub) is more likely. This jibes with the map.

-AJF

What if the fence like the communications was deactivated?

http://http://www.questforanswers.longlostlist.net/viewtopic.php?t=279&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
(this way Patchy and artz could reappear)
This may not be Otherville but like a camp/kbutz(sp)/learning center. Ben may be there because there would be more help for him there in his present condition

I guess my point with the canals is that what they showed, that dock, looked very much, to me, like an opening into the ocean. Further, can Subs dock in small canals? They are generally not deep enough. Lastly, if it is in the North East corner over that hill, maybe it's just me, but that still doesn't look like a walk you can make in the span of what coudln't be more than a few hours.


Secondly, I am actually on board with the system of tunnels. I have said that since season 1 as a way to explain the whispers. However, I don't think it's a viable reasoning in this situation because it would be suggesting Alex took Locke to the Dock through the tunnels. And this juicy little fact was just conveniently left out of both the story and Locke's expression. Which doesn't fit at all.


So to me, a sub can't reside in a canal, it didn't look like a canal, a canal over the northeast hill is still too far, and it's unlikely locke went there through tunnels.


Plothole is still the explanation outweighing the excuses IMO

So to me, a sub can't reside in a canal, it didn't look like a canal, a canal over the northeast hill is still too far, and it's unlikely locke went there through tunnels.


Plothole is still the explanation outweighing the excuses IMO

I'm not sure where you are getting your knowledge about where a sub can or can't reside, but subs can move near surface in quite "shallow" waters. The water need only be 40 or 50 feet deep or so. Maybe even more shallow. Since we don't know how deep that water is, I'm not sure where you calculate anything about a plot hole.

Just a note about the fence. Rather than it being one that surrounds Otherville, couldn't it just divide their part of the island from the rest? Must it be circular?

no plot hole: It definitely took them longer to get to the sub than what they showed on the show...Ben did say it would take an hour if they hurried (which has already been talked about)..but Jack also said they were leaving "first thing in the morning" and then we see him show up at the sub. So they must have left late that night so they could get to the sub in time to leave first thing in the morning (without hurrying).

i think you're overestimating how long it takes to walk and run a certain distance.

and it's a tv show so an hour or two can pass in a minute.

Canals and rivers can be deep enought for just about any watercraft. The sub is a small one.

The sub in the episode looked a awfull lot like a German U-boat. This particular model was a little over 100 feet long, 12 feet draught with a crew of under 20 men.

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxiii.shtml

This sub would be able to maneuver up small deep canals and rivers to a dock facility inland without to much problem. Could not do it submerged, but could travel very easily in shallow waters.

Not saying that this is the exact kind that Ben had, but this type of small sub could operate in a manner to which we are discussing.

In this episode, Locke demanded Alex take him to the sub. Which was in some dock on the shoreline. Right?

Sorry folks, to me, this one is a little too big to ignore.

From what I have seen, time and time again, whenever a fan comes up with an idea that there is some glaringly obnoxious "plot hole" in Lost, it is actually due to the fact that the fan in question just doesn't have all the facts yet. One person's plot hole is another person's mystery-to-be-solved. If this sort of thing bugs you, don't watch the show. However, it is my opinion that this is precisely one of the big draws for Lost. People LIKE to be able to try to figure stuff out, and just because one of the characters doesn't just come right out every single episode and explain every last little detail to the audience of what is taking place does not mean that it is an "absurd" show. Just my opinion, of course. :rolleyes:

Plothole is still the explanation outweighing the excuses IMOPlothole, continuity error, whatever you want to call it, it's nothing new. Look at the wide shot from ToTC. The two smoke plumes are the fuselage and the tail section. Goodwin took 10 minutes to get to the tail section (the smoke on the right), and Ethan took an hour to get to the fuselage (the smoke on the left). Yet it took the Tailees several days to walk from the tail to the fuselage. And Kate, Locke, Sayid and Danielle took several days to go from Lostie beach to Otherville. So just like the distance from the Swan hatch to the beach, the distance changes as needed by the plot du-jour. So the distance from Otherville to the dock is just another example of this.

And please stop all the talk of there being a canal. The pictures of the sub clearly show this is not the case.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1267-754.html
Or else the Otherville canal is as wide as the Panama Canal. And let's not even discuss what an engineering feat cutting such a canal through a volcanic island would be. MOD EDIT *** Language

The real issue is how they got through the fence. I'm .


Maybe someone hit the "off" switch so they could go through - otherwise... how would the Others go to different parts of the island?

this might be a plothole. maybe? but even if it is, its one of the most minor, insignificant, plotholes MOD EDIT* rudeness
think about how miniscule this detail is.

Let me remind anyone who is posting in this thread that bashing another member will not be tolerated. If you disagree with someone's opinion, please feel free to post your thoughts, but do not bash another poster in doing so.

rudeness? come on. its a minor detail along the lines of the star trekkies who obsess over which button uhura pushed to access the main panel manifold in episode 215. calling such obsessions "nerdy" is putting it LIGHTLY to say the least.

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yeah, thanks for that.

Mod Edit***

To get back on topic and hopefully put some of the negative energy out of the equation, I'd like to point out that none of us here (unless someone has inside information) know exactly what the writers have in mind for each and every scene and/or plot point. Some things can be reasonably deduced with science and logic. Others cannot at this point due to insufficient evidence.

This argument is no different. Short of the camera following each footstep Locke and Alex made with no cut scenes, we just don't know how long it took and what route they took. This doesn't make it a plot hole, it just leaves the door open for interpretation and possibilities. It gives us something to talk about and have differing opinions about. Which, in my humble opinion, is one of the genius parts of the show. Even when secrets and facts are revealed, there is more beneath the surface that can be discussed, analyzed and enjoyed. But to follow and enjoy the show, one need not go that deep.

There could be an underground subway system for all we know. We've heard strange mechanical sounding noises in past epis. They could also have a large tunnel system with motorcycles to use. They could have a human teleporter system, ala "beam me up" or The Fly. We just don't know. The losties are always walking in rough terrain - which is the slowest form of transportation. Even if this is a plothole, have you ever heard of suspension of disbelief? Stop overanalyzing and try to enjoy the show for what it is. FYI, you can always stop watching if you hate the "plotholes" so much. Me, I'll watch the show until the very last epi, even if there's zombie's, dinasours or wormholes. I can't believe the ratings have slipped! This season has been phenomenal and is getting better every epi. The new time slot sucks, though.

Well here is another small point to argue about. Any geologist around? Otherville seems to be in the floor of a giant Crater, too large to be volcanic? If some one could bring up those whole island maps fans made back in season one you will see a Crater on a peninsula. And if I had all those boats to choose from I wouldn't be running through the island but motoring around it.

Who??????????????????????????????????

Cares???????

Locke blew up the freakin submarine or did he? He could have done it on while jet-skiing his way to wherever. it doesnt matter.

rudeness? come on. its a minor detail along the lines of the star trekkies who obsess over which button uhura pushed to access the main panel manifold in episode 215. calling such obsessions "nerdy" is putting it LIGHTLY to say the least.


I guess I'm a nerd then. To me the LOCATION of otherville is a major detail of this show. Further, the fact that it was hidden in this valley in the middle of the uncharted part of the island made a lot of sense as to why the LOSTIES hadn't discovered it.

Now they are moving the location (possibly) to a shoreline where it would be surely seen? conradicts a lot of stuff.



That is to say if it is a minor detail then what do you consider a major detail?

I hold fast, this is NO plothole.

First of all, if Alex took Locke through any kind of underground tunnel we would have seen it, its too big of an event to skip.
But if they went straight north, around the hill, or followed a pass across it, gettign behind that hill would not have taken much time, and there could easily have beena canal there.

Can a submarine move up a shallow canal?
I live in a country pretty close to the old USSR, and during the cold war we once got a submarine sighted in one of our RIVERS over 15 miles from the sea.



About the Tailies taking days to get from one end to another of the Island...
There is a BIG difference between trekking through terrain you know and terrain you don't, it just cannot be compared, going around will always take 4 times as much time as going straight through, and if u end up going back and forth (because you are trying to avoid moving along the shoreline so you wont get caught) thats gonna take alot longer time as well.




-Exodus

Again, who says it is the ocean shoreline? You see a body of water with a dock, no waves, no horizon line. How is this evidence of the ocean shoreline. Maybe not a canal (though it wouldn't have to be that deep and could be natural), but can't it be a river? It is definitely not the ocean shore for a variety of reasons seen on screen, but most importantly, why would they dock the sub outside of their perimiter. I would think it is within the fenced area in order to protect it. Like others have said, we have no evidence how far Alex and Locke walked, though I believe it was relatively close by. However, it takes an average of only 20 minutes to walk a mile so who knows. Just because something doesn't make sense initially doesn't mean it's a plot hole. I'm not trying to be rude but I don't get the hostility over something like this.

Just a note about the fence. Rather than it being one that surrounds Otherville, couldn't it just divide their part of the island from the rest? Must it be circular?

According to this map:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfnMqpBZNkI/AAAAAAAACeA/7EvXaEtt1Dc/s1600-h/map2.jpg

and assuming that the little dots surrounding the town are the pylons (which I think was mentioned in the episode as the point of the characters looking at the map) then they do completely surround the town.

But they probably don't reach underground, which is where a tunnel would be.

-AJF

Again, who says it is the ocean shoreline? You see a body of water with a dock, no waves, no horizon line. How is this evidence of the ocean shoreline. Maybe not a canal (though it wouldn't have to be that deep and could be natural), but can't it be a river? It is definitely not the ocean shore for a variety of reasons seen on screen, but most importantly, why would they dock the sub outside of their perimiter. I would think it is within the fenced area in order to protect it. Like others have said, we have no evidence how far Alex and Locke walked, though I believe it was relatively close by. However, it takes an average of only 20 minutes to walk a mile so who knows. Just because something doesn't make sense initially doesn't mean it's a plot hole. I'm not trying to be rude but I don't get the hostility over something like this.


if the sub is located on a small enclosed river then how does it get out into the ocean?
100%
Just to rule out this canal talk once and for all:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/guyavery/normal_talahassee-cap757_edited.jpg



That's the ocean folks.

The crater could be volcanic, or the remnant of a meteor strike.

if the sub is located on a small enclosed river then how does it get out into the ocean?
100%
Just to rule out this canal talk once and for all:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/guyavery/normal_talahassee-cap757_edited.jpg



That's the ocean folks.

Umm, rivers can go to the sea. And how is that the ocean? No waves, trees right up on the shore, a low lying dock? You see a body of water in the dark and it HAS to be the ocean. Come on. I give up - it's not worth arguing about. Your mind is set.

If the sub was parked in a protected lagoon, you wouldn't see harsh waves and the water would be rather calm.

If the sub was parked in a protected lagoon, you wouldn't see harsh waves and the water would be rather calm.

Excellent point. Plus, a protected lagoon could extend quite far inland.

Five pages for a thread that's topic is irrelevant to anything. At best you have picked up on a geographic anomaly, not a "plot hole". As someone that watches fictional television shows you have an obligation to suspend disbelief in certain situations and this is one of them.

Its not the ocean.
No horizon to call that an ocean.

Most likely, its a small lagoon surrounded by trees (but the far side cannot be seen since its too dark. And since its a sub, it could always use, assuming there are, underwater tunnels to get to the sea.

Just to rule out this canal talk once and for all:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/guyavery/normal_talahassee-cap757_edited.jpg



That's the ocean folks.



Canal/Lagoon, Potato/PotAto...
That screenie CLEARLY proves its not the oceanline,
no waves, no ocean.

-Exodus

I think someone said this somewhere earlier in the thread, and at the risk of starting another flame war, who says the compound where Jack et als were living and playing football is the same one we see in ToTC? Ben just underwent major spinal surgery on an island offshore of the "main" (for lack of a better word) island. Perhaps a trek through the jungle would have been too dangerous and this compound was much closer.

Just a thought, peeps, just a thought.

I find that you enjoy Lost more when you're not dissecting it, you see the plotholes and don't see the story, ya know?

To whoever asked about Ana saying that Goodwin came out of the jungle 10 mins after the crash. How did she know exactly when they crashed. It seems as though no one was concious directly after the crash and I believe she woke up just like everyone else. So she wouldn't have know exactly how much time had passed. I also don't think her sense of time would have been all that accurate at the time. So I don't think that comment is all that relevant except at the time to point out that he was an other. The other possibility is that he made it in less than an hour.

As for the title of the thread, I don't see this as a plothole either - it's another mystery but not a plothole. I'm sure the writers haven't forgotten about their shot of othersville...I agree that the perspective makes it difficult to tell how long it would take to get to the ocean from othersville and we can't see what's behind the mountains. It doesn't look like it would take very long to get to the water though. The only way that would be the ocean is if it was a very sheltered lagoon...If not, there would be waves, I've had some experience not only trying to land a boat on an island but also to take off again in the ocean and there are always waves and they are a huge hindrance so it wouldn't suprise me if this is either a very very sheltered lagoon or a river/canal of some sort. I lived by the ocean for many years as well and even in the marinas which are fairly sheltered there were waves...

Not that i'm too troubled by it, but I think Ana's 10 minute guess would have to be pretty close to accurate because just before following Goodwin into the jungle to find Bernard she was giving the little girl cpr. If the timeframe we're talking about weren't quite a bit less than an hour, She probably wouldn't have been able to revive the little girl.

Even if this is a plothole, have you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?Suspension of disbelief is absolutely necessary when watching any TV show, film, book, etc. It's necessary to tell a story. But it's something that has to be used judiciously. A writer has to be careful in demanding their audience suspend disbelief. Because if it's done too often it shatters the scenario and makes their story unbelievable. It's like the old story about the boy who cried wolf. If you do it too often, people don't take you seriously any more. And Lost has crossed this line long ago.

FYI, you can always stop watching if you hate the "plotholes" so much.
[SNIP]
I can't believe the ratings have slipped!Could be that people have taken your advise and stopped watching, and that's why the ratings have 'slipped' severely. It appears 10 million people aren't as tolerant as you for plot holes.

But if they went straight north, around the hill, or followed a pass across it, gettign behind that hill would not have taken much time, and there could easily have beena canal there.I've been to Hawaii several times, and when I was there I did a fair amount of hiking. I can say with a fair amount of certainty that hiking over that ridge behind Otherville would have taken a good deal of effort and it'd have taken them HOURS.

... but can't it be a river?In order to have a river, you first need a source of sufficient water running off to form one. That just doesn't exist on most volcanic Pacific islands. Here's a map of Maui, where I've visited several times.
http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#q1=lahainai,%20hawaii&trf=0&mvt=m&lon=-156.314163&lat=20.75804&mag=8
It shows several streams formed by runnoff from the rains on the mountains. I can say with absolute certainty that none of these streams on Maui (which is much bigger than Lost island) is large enough to float a submarine. In fact none of them is big enough to float a canoe. The idea that the submarine shown on MFT was moored along an inland river is absurd.

And how is that the ocean? No waves, trees right up on the shore, a low lying dock?I have seen the ocean as flat as glass quite often. And most often this is, wait for it, at night.

As someone that watches fictional television shows you have an obligation to suspend disbelief in certain situations and this is one of them.Unfortunately, Lost demands this in almost every scene.

It seems as though no one was concious directly after the crash and I believe she woke up just like everyone else.If they weren't conscious immediately after the crash, they'd have drowned.

to the people saying I need to just suspend disbelief I have a question for you.
(sorry to veer a bit off topic but it was my thread ;))


My question is, when is it ok to REFUSE to suspend disbelief? How far does a story have to go for it to make you go 'this is ridiculous?'

I'm sure this is a subjective answer but some people are saying you will just enjoy tv more if you go with whatever they are doing. Yet I wonder how many of you can watch things like WWE wrestling without rolling your eyes?


Now getting back to the topic, for me, things don't get much bigger than magically changing the location of Otherville to put it near an ocean. (again assuming they did which we are doing since I'm only speaking to those who say I should suspend disbelief if I'm right)


I enjoy this show. I enjoyed it a lot more when they had a logical, consistent progression. Why? Because it showed they knew where they were going.

If I am right and this is a plothole the larger implication is that when the writers were writing in the opening sequence for this season, they did not consider how the others would get there from the other island. So later when they reached that problem, they made it up and rewrote their own history.


So what's to say they won't do this later? we may come to find out

-Smokey doesn't kill and is benevolent (wait he has killed before! but we'll suspend disbelief)
-The plane was crashed on purpose by the pilot (wait the magnet crashed the plane, but we'll suspend disbelief)
-you can use a compass to navigate on the island (but wait in s1 sayid said you can't cuz it wont' point to true north but we'll suspend disbelief *NOTE THIS ONE HAPPENED*)
-Eko walks by the camp to get a banana from the pantry area (wait he's dead! but we should suspend disbelief)
-The others live no where near water but they can walk to the sub located in the ocean in a single evening, seemingly less than a few hours....(assuming it is a mistake which I still do)

Hopefully you get my point. If you allow the creators to undo major revelations they made in the past to suit the story they weren't prepared to tell back then, you are letting them cheat. Things like speculation and theory predicting are pretty much pointless if they can just make up things that contradict the past at will.
100%
To whoever asked about Ana saying that Goodwin came out of the jungle 10 mins after the crash. How did she know exactly when they crashed. It seems as though no one was concious directly after the crash and I believe she woke up just like everyone else.

true but if she took more than a min or two to 'wake up' she would have drown. I would say time estimate is pretty close considering she probably never lost consciousness (or very briefly) and because Bernard obviously knew how long he was in that tree before Goodwin passed by.

Bongo Fury, not sure why you even bothering watching???

I don't suppose you liked Lord of the Rings or X-men either.

We are talking about a show with polar bears on a tropical island...and you are discussing the actual topography of Hawaii. It's not supposed to be Hawaii...therefore no one knows what's behind those mountains. Not to mention a smoke monster that kills people sometimes. Oh yes and there's the fact that Locke can walk even though his back is broken. And you are dwelling on how far you think othersville is from a beach of some sort.

I have never seen the ocean look like that and have been around them most of my life so I guess there was a moment when I looked away or something. I have been to the beach at night too btw. There is a reason that people like to sleep near the ocean - the waves are soothing.

Sorry but I just don't understand the negativity, if you don't like it - don't watch. I have watched many movies with inconstistencies or mistakes - hell tv shows as well and sometimes you just have to go with the flow or you'll never enjoy anything. It is possible in the show that othersville is closer to the beach than it looks or there is a river or canal (it's not Hawaii - we don't know where it is....they are filming in Hawaii but it's not meant to be Hawaii!!)
100%
-Smokey doesn't kill and is benevolent (wait he has killed before! but we'll suspend disbelief)
-The plane was crashed on purpose by the pilot (wait the magnet crashed the plane, but we'll suspend disbelief)

what are you talking about here?

-you can use a compass to navigate on the island (but wait in s1 sayid said you can't cuz it wont' point to true north but we'll suspend disbelief *NOTE THIS ONE HAPPENED*)

I don't remember this one, can you please clarify...

-Eko walks by the camp to get a banana from the pantry area (wait he's dead! but we should suspend disbelief)

What??

-The others live no where near water but they can walk to the sub located in the ocean in a single evening, seemingly less than a few hours....(assuming it is a mistake which I still do)]

I think it's been pointed out that it's probably not the ocean...IMHO it's definitely not the ocean unless it's a very sheltered lagoon. We don't know if there are tunnels, we also don't actually know how far it is to the ocean. I guess you had trouble with the polar bear and Locke walking too??

On that note...back to Ana in the water - um Locke woke up and could walk so it's not unreasonable to assume that Ana could have survived being in the water for a while and could also have resuscitated the little girl. Think back to another rescuscitation scene involving Charlie...:eek2:

to the people saying I need to just suspend disbelief I have a question for you.
(sorry to veer a bit off topic but it was my thread ;))


My question is, when is it ok to REFUSE to suspend disbelief? How far does a story have to go for it to make you go 'this is ridiculous?'

I'm sure this is a subjective answer but some people are saying you will just enjoy tv more if you go with whatever they are doing. Yet I wonder how many of you can watch things like WWE wrestling without rolling your eyes? .

You answered your own question! The suspension of Disbelief tis purely subjective, and no Author nor Playwright, nor Screenwriter can ever NOR should they ever have that THOUGHT in their head while they are writing. I give you Bongo Fury credit you both seem to have a tad bit of schooling, but I am gonna make a guess, it is in Literature not Film? There is a huge difference! The suspension of disbelief according to most Scholars (again this subject is argued all the time) is based on rules, specific boundaries dicatated by the show and there have not been ANY rules set on this show yet. In otherwords, there are no such things as smoke monsters, yet it captavated an audience! Why? The tangible aspect of what it IS, has not been introduced thus far. See, as much as you may critique, it can't really be done, until the Serial is over by anyone who wants to retain any type of integrity. :)

I can find an explanation for any of your ATTEMPTS to illustarate mistakes on this subject...same thing with your commentary on plot holes.....and actually to be quite frank, I don't need to guess. I could just toggle down to a few other threads and just post the links to your examples of failure and show you how this show works and how many people enjoy it. But then again, you really don't care do you, so why should I waste anymore time?

Well and actually why should you?

Not only that but has anyone thought that maybe the so called "mistakes" are part of the plot - of course the criticizers haven't because you seem to think they are just making things up as they go along. Well only time will tell and as said above, we have to wait til the last show to find out.

what are you talking about here?



I don't remember this one, can you please clarify...



What??



What I am saying here is how absurd would the above examples be if they were to happen? Yet the same defense that is being used here (just go with it and suspend disbelief or stop watching) can be used in any of them. At one point does one say 'this is a tad absurd, they aren't even sticking with their own internal logic anymore'

For me, declaring where on the island the other's villiage is located, then moving it and pretending or renagging on their past revelation is where absurdity comes in and when I tend to lose faith in the writers possibly knowing where they are going. Ok if Locke was originally in a brown wheelchair and later he was shown in a black one, that's no biggie. If Charlie once claimed Driveshaft sold 2 mill albums then later said 4 million. again whatever. I am not holding it up to some unfair/unreasonable standard. But randomly changing the location of Otherville, going back on what is arguably on eof the top 3 biggest revelations in the shows history to date? sorry that's kind of big.

As for what you sought clarification for. In s1, Sayid pointed out that compasses dont' point to true north on this island. He found it peculiar. In Enter 77 or Par Avion, they are following a compass to navigate the island. If this is a plothole, it's rather large to me. If compasses started to work correctly after the magnet was set off in s2 finale, then that makes sense. I am willing to wait to find out more answers on that.

But if I'm right on Othertown relocation, that's just too much.
I think it's been pointed out that it's probably not the ocean...IMHO it's definitely not the ocean unless it's a very sheltered lagoon. We don't know if there are tunnels, we also don't actually know how far it is to the ocean. I guess you had trouble with the polar bear and Locke walking too??

If it's not the ocean and they give an explanation I'm fine with it and will retract my statements. At the same time would you agree if they don't offer an explanation and this is just a plothole you might probably admit this is a pretty huge and ridiculous one no?

To answer your question, I have no problem with the polar bear and locke walking. In fact Walkabout was the ep that sealed the deal for me as a huge fan. But your comparison is faulty.

The polar bears and Locke walking are analagous to The location of Otherville. They are huge events that make you very interested in the direction of the story with their unique presence

The possibly relocation of Otherville to get out of a problem is, to me, analagous to them not knowing how Locke got in his wheelchair, so to get out of that, they pretend he was never paralyzed to begin with.

Perhaps if that happened, you'd see my point. No doubt you'd still have fans who will love anything they do saying 'oh you have to suspend disbelief' lol

Not only that but has anyone thought that maybe the so called "mistakes" are part of the plot - of course the criticizers haven't because you seem to think they are just making things up as they go along. Well only time will tell and as said above, we have to wait til the last show to find out.


Absolutely agreed. :)

has anyone thought that maybe the so called "mistakes" are part of the plot...Just curious... Has this happened yet on the show? Has there ever been something people thought was a plot discrepancy, only to later have an explanation given?

DrUrbino, I think we are arguing two different things here.
this is a fictional story set in a sci fi, supernatural realm.
To know that and still enjoy the show IS suspension of disbelief. In your post you seem to be accusing me of not having this.

There is a difference however to employing a suspension of disbelief for a fictional story and bad storytelling. TPTB have been fantastic at setting up this show by telling an amazing story. However if their payoff, their climax, their denouement contradicts several of the arcs and facts they have set up along the way, then they have ended their story badly. They have told a bad story.

here is something I am sure you picked up in Film Class. It is the principal of the unwritten contract between player and playee. (there are many other terminologies for this)

In short, the idea is that a storyteller has an obligation to his/her audience to tell a story. To make an attempt to create a plot, a setting, characters, an introduction, a climax and a conclusion. In fulfilling the obligation, the audience grants any necessary requisites to get the story over. Examples of this are being silent during a live performance, paying full attention to the events in front of their eyes and in times of supernatural phenonena, to allow suspension of disbelief of these events occuring in reality.

If either side neglects the contract, the story will not be effectively told.

The argument to LOST is in the possibilty that several events that unfold down the line will be neglect things told to the audience thus far. If I tell you this person's name is John Smith, then later change his name to Bill Jones without any explanation or motivation, I am failing my duty as a storyteller.

IF (and again this is only assuming I am right here because the other presented options seem downright silly to me, if I am not I will take back any negative comments in this thread) The location of Othertown was moved simply to suit future events of the story without any motivation or explanation, the writers are presenting facts and changing them later to suit a story they hadn't intended on telling us earlier. This sets an allowance for them to change anything we've seen thus far. Maybe the hatch didn' implode. Maybe Eko is alive. maybe they will never talk to us about the Charlie death thing ever again because they didn' really know where they were going with it and would rather just pretend it never existed.


Would they really do these things? of course not. Why? Because that would be stupid. But according to your post it's fully within their right. We as viewers should either accept it or not watch. Your criteria leaves no alternative for voicing dissatisfaction with the presentation of a story that I, as the audience was finding to be one of the best ones ever told to me.

I refuse to accept that criteria.
100%
Just curious... Has this happened yet on the show? Has there ever been something people thought was a plot discrepancy, only to later have an explanation given?


no because TPTB have set it up perfectly. if it is a seeming plothole that they later reveal to have a storyline related explanatin they are hailed for their creative genius. As they should be.

If it is a plothole, fans will not voice criticism but instead come up with countless reasons as to how they could later reveal it to be part of their plan. Only at the end of the show will we find out what truly was a plothole thus sheltering them from any writing criticsms whatsoever.

DrUrbino, I think we are arguing two different things here.
this is a fictional story set in a sci fi, supernatural realm.
To know that and still enjoy the show IS suspension of disbelief. In your post you seem to be accusing me of not having this.

There is a difference however to employing a suspension of disbelief for a fictional story and bad storytelling. TPTB have been fantastic at setting up this show by telling an amazing story. However if their payoff, their climax, their denouement contradicts several of the arcs and facts they have set up along the way, then they have ended their story badly. They have told a bad story.

here is something I am sure you picked up in Film Class. It is the principal of the unwritten contract between player and playee. (there are many other terminologies for this)

In short, the idea is that a storyteller has an obligation to his/her audience to tell a story. To make an attempt to create a plot, a setting, characters, an introduction, a climax and a conclusion. In fulfilling the obligation, the audience grants any necessary requisites to get the story over. Examples of this are being silent during a live performance, paying full attention to the events in front of their eyes and in times of supernatural phenonena, to allow suspension of disbelief of these events occuring in reality.

If either side neglects the contract, the story will not be effectively told.

The argument to LOST is in the possibilty that several events that unfold down the line will be neglect things told to the audience thus far. If I tell you this person's name is John Smith, then later change his name to Bill Jones without any explanation or motivation, I am failing my duty as a storyteller.

IF (and again this is only assuming I am right here because the other presented options seem downright silly to me, if I am not I will take back any negative comments in this thread) The location of Othertown was moved simply to suit future events of the story without any motivation or explanation, the writers are presenting facts and changing them later to suit a story they hadn't intended on telling us earlier. This sets an allowance for them to change anything we've seen thus far. Maybe the hatch didn' implode. Maybe Eko is alive. maybe they will never talk to us about the Charlie death thing ever again because they didn' really know where they were going with it and would rather just pretend it never existed.


Would they really do these things? of course not. Why? Because that would be stupid. But according to your post it's fully within their right. We as viewers should either accept it or not watch. Your criteria leaves no alternative for voicing dissatisfaction with the presentation of a story that I, as the audience was finding to be one of the best ones ever told to me.

I refuse to accept that criteria.
100%



no because TPTB have set it up perfectly. if it is a seeming plothole that they later reveal to have a storyline related explanatin they are hailed for their creative genius. As they should be.

If it is a plothole, fans will not voice criticism but instead come up with countless reasons as to how they could later reveal it to be part of their plan. Only at the end of the show will we find out what truly was a plothole thus sheltering them from any writing criticsms whatsoever.

So now you have completely lost me...So you are saying it is up to YOU to save this show?

I am gonna rest with my previous commetns:)

Don't suspend disbelief, but don't assume that even IF this is an issue they did not consider, it cannot be explained in perpetuity.

I've been to Hawaii several times, and when I was there I did a fair amount of hiking. I can say with a fair amount of certainty that hiking over that ridge behind Otherville would have taken a good deal of effort and it'd have taken them HOURS.

That entirely depends on the size of the ridge.


-Exodus

So now you have completely lost me...So you are saying it is up to YOU to save this show?


lol no.
I am saying plotholes do happen. LOST is not inpervious to them and I believe this is one huge one that exemplifies the ever increasing laziness the writers have shown this season in comparison to season 1 and most of 2.

If I am right and it is a plothole, I don't abide by the 'shut up and take it or watch something else' theory. If I wish it can be better, if I think it has been better, and if I feel I have examples of why it's not better now, I think it's fine to point them out. I won't blindly just take whatever they serve up and continually say best episode ever week after week.

If I am wrong and there is a plausible reasoning behind this 'plothole' then I obviously am guilty of judging it too early and will take back my criticisms. However I won't give this show a free pass of all seemingly obvious plotholes simply because answers come in time. Because that would mean we don't criticize anything until the show is done, of course by then it is too late.

LOST is a show that, among few others respects and listens to it's fans. I love that and have no problem voicing concern in the hopes that if others feel the same way maybe the writing will improve and the carelessness with decrease.


My final point on this matter will hopefully lighten the mood in here
It is an exaggerated version of what I am saying and the frustration people like me have with the writing.

please keep in mind i said EXAGGERATED

http://thatvideosite.com/video/4073

Again, a lot of this is to do with having faith in the writers / team. After so many things which seem inconsistent, some of them quite big things, it seems kind of fan-boyish / ignorant to just assume that the writers know what they're doing 100% and not even accept the possibility that they did indeed screw up some aspects.

Having said that, many of the things which are confusing / seem like contradictions right now might well be explained. It really is a matter of time. But certainly, I am not 100% faithful in the writers / crew right now, because there do seem to be holes, which aren't interesting or intriguing, and which do not seem deliberate. If they were intended to mysteries that make us think which later get explained, they would have been presented as such - in my opinion. Other things like Locke's dad being on the island, or Locke suddenly being able to walk; it's shown as a big deal, it's shown as a mystery with accompanying music going 'bwaaaaahhh!'. But when these (assumed) mistakes crop up, it's shown as though they aren't mysterious, but factual - a sign that they have been missed by the writers / team. But that may be incorrect; I think people need to wait and see.

How many miles/kilometres can cover a man running for an hour? I made a brief search with Google and I found this interesting page:

http://www.runtheplanet.com/resources/historical/run1hour.asp

The best performances give numbers like 18-20 kilometres in an hour. Ethan and Goodwin are good, strong and fit men. They wouldn't be among the Others, would they? So it's safe to assume that they can at least cover 15 kilometres in an hour. They clearly know where to go and which paths to take. If they have an underground system, it's even easier, because the path can cut through surface obstacles, like the morphology of the land itself. Does it still look unbelievable they could reach the two sections of the plane crash?


As for the presence/absence of water in the aerial photo. It may be a continuity error, sure, but I wouldn't call it an "ABSURD plothole". The fact that Othersville may be closer to the ocean doesn't make it more easily reachable. It's still on the other part of the island (the northern part, if I'm not mistaken). How exactly the Others can be seen from the ocean by the Losties if the Losties don't have large boats to move en masse from a point to another in the island? (Now they don't have any boats except the small thing Kate and Sawyer brought from the smaller island).


Rick

As for the presence/absence of water in the aerial photo. It may be a continuity error, sure, but I wouldn't call it an "ABSURD plothole". The fact that Othersville may be closer to the ocean doesn't make it more easily reachable. It's still on the other part of the island (the northern part, if I'm not mistaken).

If it is a plothole / error, then the big problem I have with it is that it just shows that the writers aren't planning ahead. If they knew that the submarine stuff would be happening, and the Sonic Ring would be in place, then they would have made allowances for them in the opening shot; shown a small amount of water nearby or whatever, and had the open clearing which we later see in recent episodes where the Sonic Ring is - they didn't need to show the ring, as it could be zoomed out to the extent that they would be too small to see - but instead they have it just surrounded by forest.

It's not the absurdity of the plothole to me, it's just the worrying notion that the writers aren't prepared, and it makes me concerned that future episodes aren't being thought out right now, and so it makes for a disjointed and ill thought out story.

The most confusing thing to me is where the Sonic Ring went in this episode. It seemed to be suggested that the subnmarine dock was within the Sonic Ring, but the opening shot in TOTC doesn't allow for that.

Suspension of disbelief is absolutely necessary when watching any TV show, film, book, etc. It's necessary to tell a story. But it's something that has to be used judiciously. A writer has to be careful in demanding their audience suspend disbelief. Because if it's done too often it shatters the scenario and makes their story unbelievable. It's like the old story about the boy who cried wolf. If you do it too often, people don't take you seriously any more. And Lost has crossed this line long ago.
whatever

Could be that people have taken your advise and stopped watching, and that's why the ratings have 'slipped' severely. It appears 10 million people aren't as tolerant as you for plot holes.Again, whatever. If plotholes/suspension of disbelief is the reason people stop watching shows then shows like Prison Break or 24 which require 100x more SoD than Lost does would have no viewers.


In order to have a river, you first need a source of sufficient water running off to form one. That just doesn't exist on most volcanic Pacific islands. Here's a map of Maui, where I've visited several times.
http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#q1=lahainai,%20hawaii&trf=0&mvt=m&lon=-156.314163&lat=20.75804&mag=8
It shows several streams formed by runnoff from the rains on the mountains. I can say with absolute certainty that none of these streams on Maui (which is much bigger than Lost island) is large enough to float a submarine. In fact none of them is big enough to float a canoe. The idea that the submarine shown on MFT was moored along an inland river is absurd.Firstly your link proves nothing, any island even a small one could have a large lake with river flowing from it. The island could have formed a large hollow as result of tectonic uplifting of a hill or mountain range, that given area could store water from rain and through erosion form its way to the ocean over a period of years. The hollow could have also been created through a meteor strike, an earthquake or by pure erosion. Or the canal could have also been manually created by the other/Dharma to make transportation to and from the barracks a lot easier, imagine you are bringing 5 people with their stuff it would be a lot easier if the sub landed near barracks instead of having to hike through the jungle with all the heavy goods, we have seen that Dharma was trying to build a road what makes you think that they were not trying to create an artificial water body for the purposes of transportation?

I have seen the ocean as flat as glass quite often. And most often this is, wait for it, at night.And I have always seen rivers a flat as a glass and oceans as wavy. What's your point?


Unfortunately, Lost demands this in almost every scene.
Really? Please point SoD for all the scenes in this episode shut up.:rolleyes:

What I am saying here is how absurd would the above examples be if they were to happen? Yet the same defense that is being used here (just go with it and suspend disbelief or stop watching) can be used in any of them.

Yes, but you'll agree that the examples you made are way exaggerated. We are discussing on a freeze frame of something that has been on screen less than 2 seconds. Plot holes are really other things. Suppose in the following episodes we see that Cooper is never mentioned or seen anymore. That would be strange, absurd. Suppose in the next episode we seen Ben walking around. That would be absurd.

In every film, TV series, in any production there are going to be continuity errors. Great works by master directors have continuity errors, sometimes borderline goofs or actual mistakes like crew or equipment visible, anachronisms and the like. The majority of these mistakes do not harm the film or the TV series because they do not mess the plot, the action, the atmosphere up. They don't get in the way of the audience's enjoyment.

A serious fault in a plot means (to me, at least) something that is so contrived or overlooked as to interfere with the main course of the story. Characters disappearing, characters talking about something major regarding their past and then, in a flashback, we see something unexplicably different. Inconsistencies in their behaviour. Major continuity errors like a situation left in a way and resumed in an other, or not resumed at all. I could go on.

To me, the fact that we do not see water near the Others' village is a minor issue considering the big picture and, moreover, considering where the story is now and, possibly, where it is going from now. It doesn't interfere with how I'm following the story. It doesn't compromise the story, in my opinion. And surely it doesn't make me shout "poor writing!" or "incompetent writers!". By the by, I'm quite tired of reading things like "the writers don't know what they're doing / where they're going", "they're making up things as they go along". There is no such thing with something as big, new, and complex as Lost. There might be small production errors from time to time (different props in the same set, etc.) but huge plot holes? I'd wait for the actual end before speaking.


Rick

By the by, I'm quite tired of reading things like "the writers don't know what they're doing / where they're going", "they're making up things as they go along". There is no such thing with something as big, new, and complex as Lost. There might be small production errors from time to time (different props in the same set, etc.) but huge plot holes? I'd wait for the actual end before speaking.

Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think a conclusion can be made either way right now, we do have to wait to find out. But, on the flipside, there are a lot of people who are refusing to accept the possibility that maybe there are holes. I'm not saying there definitely are holes, just that it is possible.

With regards to referring to missing out the Sonic Ring and water for the sub as being small production errors, I don't know if that's the best way to describe it. If it is an error, then surely it's just more likely that they hadn't considered that there is a Sonic Ring, or a place for the Sub. Do you think it's more likely they they did already plan for those things, and just forgot, or it got to the special effects team and they made it and then the editors / producers looked at it and said 'well you missed out the Sonic Ring and a place for the sub, but it's too late now'. I really don't think that's likely. Instead, I think it will either be explained in future episodes, in which case it's not an error, or it is an error due to the writers not having planned ahead and known what would happen in subsequent episodes.

Sonic ring goes outside the valley, Sub is behind the ridge.
Even if its something they genuinely missed, at this moment there is nothing wrong with those theories and thus applying them in perpetuity.

-Exodus

I stole this from wikipedia

"Suspension of disbelief is an aesthetic theory intended to characterize people's relationships to art. It refers to the alleged willingness of a reader or viewer to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic, impossible, or contradictory. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid pro quo: the audience agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment.
Further, inconsistencies or plot holes that violate the initial premises, established canon, continuity, or common sense, are often viewed as breaking this agreement. For particularly loyal fans, these dealbreakers are usually accompanied by a sense of betrayal. However, the extent to which the suspension can be called compromised is often dependent on the beholder. A physicist, for example, may be more likely to question a fantastical breach of known physics, while an architect's suspension of disbelief may be damaged by being introduced to a building of unrealistic proportions. Similarly, 'common sense' is a relative term, and so the same piece of fiction may stand up or not, depending on the particular audience."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Its best to overlook small oversights in order to enjoy the fictional fantasy television show that is lost

Geography is important to me. Noticing discrepancies in direction or distance doesn't take thinking or analysis. They just rankle. On the other hand, I can see that for many people it isn't an issue.

There are so many open questions in this series that I am sure that in the end some will be left without adequate explanations, so don't take this as a blanket defense of the show's internal logic; but I am sure this is not one of them. We have been given many small maps over the years. Who doesn't think that the creative team has a big one?

This thread reminds me of an early review of Star Wars, pointing out all of the plot holes, including: Luke's father is supposed to be a farmer, right? But there's nowhere anywhere around where crops could possibly grow!

Plot hole? You decide...

I prefer a show written for someone smarter than me to one written for someone dumber. There are very few of the former.

--Väi

Bongo Fury, not sure why you even bothering watching???Might I ask? How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? How do my motivations alter the plot holes in Lost? It seems to me like you're raising a nonsequiter.

I don't suppose you liked Lord of the Rings or X-men either.Yes, I watched both, and enjoyed them both. I have no problem suspending disbelief in order to set the scenario for a story. The problem I have is continuing that suspension of disbelief when the writers change the facts they have already established. If a story remains true to itself, I can accept almost anything. But when a story betrays its own internal logic is where I draw the line.

We are talking about a show with polar bears on a tropical island...and you are discussing the actual topography of Hawaii. It's not supposed to be Hawaii...therefore no one knows what's behind those mountains.Hawaii is a volcanic island in the Pacific, as is Lost island. I'm making comparisons from my own experience based on what TPTB have established. They have establised the story taking place on a volcanic Pacific island, so I'm drawing comparisons based on a readily available example of same. Had the story been set in a desert it is reasonable to make comparisons based on that fact. This is what we are talking about, TPTB have set the scenario, and now they need to be consistent with that scenario in order for us to continue with that suspension of disbelief.

I give you Bongo Fury credit you both seem to have a tad bit of schooling, but I am gonna make a guess, it is in Literature not Film? There is a huge difference! The suspension of disbelief according to most Scholars (again this subject is argued all the time) is based on rules, specific boundaries dicatated by the show and there have not been ANY rules set on this show yet. In otherwords, there are no such things as smoke monsters, yet it captavated an audience! Why? The tangible aspect of what it IS, has not been introduced thus far. See, as much as you may critique, it can't really be done, until the Serial is over by anyone who wants to retain any type of integrity.Sorry, but I reject that. One doesn't have to wait till the entire show has been presented before we can judge it. It's not solely about the destination, it's about the journey too. If the journey isn't satisfying then regardless of how good the ultimate payoff is the show has failed. And I also disagree that nothing has been presented yet. The show is 2 1/2 years in (if a show can go on for that long and nothing has been established then that in and of itself is a strong indictment), many things have been established. The problem is that the writers betray that. As in the subject at hand, geographic settings that have been established are ignored/changes in subsequent episodes. It isn't solely about the big issues. Those need to be consistent. But so do the little things. Because if they are inconsistent, if they are sloppy, it does not bode well for the ultimate payoff to the show.

That entirely depends on the size of the ridge.Look at the picture linked previously in this thread from AToTC. Compare the size of Otherville to the ridge and the cliff face. That gives a pretty clear picture of the scale of things. That's what I did, and I feel confident in my estimation of what it would take to hike it.

Again, a lot of this is to do with having faith in the writers / team. After so many things which seem inconsistent, some of them quite big things, it seems kind of fan-boyish / ignorant to just assume that the writers know what they're doing 100% and not even accept the possibility that they did indeed screw up some aspects.Inconsistent and poorly concluded, you mean like Alias? Yeah it's tough to have faith, especially considering the track record.

I still enjoy watching the show, I think it's awesome and loved the last 3 episodes especially. These kind of perceived errors; if they really are errors; they're a step up from regular suspension of disbelief. If it's a limitation of the medium, or budget, or just something fantastical but intentionally written, then I think it's obvious to suspend disbelief. For example, a monster with wires clearly visible coming out of its head and arms. I wouldn't say 'It doesn't make sense, it has wires coming out of him'. I would just accept that you're not meant to see the wires, and it was a budget limitation. But, with errors which make it seem like there are writing errors, and a lack of vision from the team, then it does ruin the experience. As I've said before, I think a lot of it is down to people having blinkered faith in the writers, just because it's a great show and has lots of enjoyable qualities doesn't mean it is perfect. I am happy watching to see how it unfolds.

Sonic ring goes outside the valley, Sub is behind the ridge.
Check the map Sayid had last week, it's linked earlier in the thread. It clearly shows the sonic fence on the Otherville side of the ridge.

Check the map Sayid had last week, it's linked earlier in the thread. It clearly shows the sonic fence on the Otherville side of the ridge.

That's what I thought... the fence is pretty close to the village on that map, and where would the water be on that map? Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anywhere a sub could be.

I don't know if anyone has said it yet but there could be more than one othervill the Island was used for Social Utophian Engineering (making a perfect community) so if the sonic fence would kill things passing through it would keep them from danger and also if there community decided to "Purge" there would be other communites to keep doing research on. Just what I think

My theory for the communities is that there are 4 or more communites for them to do the Untophian Engineering in. As shown on the blast door map http://www.lostpedia.com/images/3/3c/Fullblastdoor.jpg if you look around the map there are 4 CV stations on the Island, the map was drawn by Rodrinzky and Inman who were stationd at the swan and began to travel the island. The two of them would see the fence and not want to risk there lives they would have just known it was a wall so they put it on the map as a square box and CV 1,2,3,4. according to the map they found the flame in the west part of the island but before they went ahead and crossed a river (also on the map) ruesso stayed behind and waited for them. than after the encounter with patchy they headed back south to the river to find ruesso and thats when the flame blew up. after that they talk about a ticket and it shows the picture of the town surrounded by a solid black line. than assuming they dont turn around and cross through the debris of the flame they continue on through across the river and than eventually they get to the town than they hop the fence and reach othervill and wait till night locke than goes over to the dock which is also the river just closer to the ocean so its bigger and on the map the fence does touch the river in the bottom left and in the top right. :)

Maybe I am wrong, but in Enter 77 when they showed Sayid consulting the compass it was not pointing north. It seemed as though they were compensating for the anomaly and had factored that in to the bearing they were headed on.

Well here is another small point to argue about. Any geologist around? Otherville seems to be in the floor of a giant Crater, too large to be volcanic? If some one could bring up those whole island maps fans made back in season one you will see a Crater on a peninsula. And if I had all those boats to choose from I wouldn't be running through the island but motoring around it.

This thread has been all over the place, but perhaps the way the sub gets out is through an underground cave system. Hybrida hints at it - inactive volcanoes can have flooded cave systems below them. Crater Lake (Oregon) is a flooded volcano that comes to mind....

The problem is that the writers betray that. As in the subject at hand, geographic settings that have been established are ignored/changes in subsequent episodes. It isn't solely about the big issues. Those need to be consistent. But so do the little things. Because if they are inconsistent, if they are sloppy, it does not bode well for the ultimate payoff to the show.

Let's leave the screencap that generated this thread apart for a moment.

Do we have a clear map of the island? Do we have a scale, exact size, topography, distances? If a character in a novel, film, on Lost, says that it takes 2 hours to reach place B from place A, and another says it takes 1 hour, is that an error? It might not be, because the two characters are different people, with different walking speeds, different states of physical fitness, they might be taking different paths to reach place B from place A, and one could travel in the evening, in a less fatigued state, and arrive even earlier.

If you find yourself in an unknown place and don't have any means to take exact measurements of distances, and you say, like "If you go in that direction for about three miles you'll reach the cliff", it is obvious that the actual distance may be less or more than that. It's an approximation.

What I'm trying to say is that from what I've seen so far in the Lost island setting, everything regarding distances is quite relative. I don't think it's arbitrary, mind you. There are episodes in which the characters seem to take long trips/hikes in the jungle, because that's what's important, that's what's in focus. In another episode, where nothing is planned to happen in the jungle, and makes no sense showing a character wandering around the jungle to reach the beach (because the important action is going to happen on the beach), the writers may choose to cut to the point. A character will leave place A at sunset and will reach place B at night, for example.

So yes, the direction of the story might, in some cases, reduce the importance of distances (told or assumed) or leave them blurred. Is that an unacceptable interference that prevents from enjoying the show? Not for me.

What exactly have the writers betrayed? What has been established so uncontrovertibly to speak about betrayal? I'm not saying that Lost is perfect. I can recognise inconsistencies and I'm still bothered by the timeline in Claire's past and her mum's conditions. The apparent inconsistencies between "Raised by Another" and "Par Avion" leave me a bit puzzled indeed. And that, to me, is more contradictory than geographical distances or settings we cannot establish with sufficient accuracy.

Sorry for the length.
Rick

I think it's feasible the Otherville from AToTC is not the same as the Barracks. In the Pearl Orientation Video, occupants are told at the end of their shift they are to return to the "barracks" via the Pala Ferry. This at the very least implies there is a water route to the Barracks; this was back in Season 2.

If Ben was unable to travel great distances over land (wheelchair, etc), it's feasible they chose not to return to Otherville after leaving the Hydra, instead opting to stay at the Barracks.

I think it's feasible the Otherville from AToTC is not the same as the Barracks. In the Pearl Orientation Video, occupants are told at the end of their shift they are to return to the "barracks" via the Pala Ferry. This at the very least implies there is a water route to the Barracks; this was back in Season 2.

If Ben was unable to travel great distances over land (wheelchair, etc), it's feasible they chose not to return to Otherville after leaving the Hydra, instead opting to stay at the Barracks.

that just prove's my theory even more concidering that there is water near the pearl a " stream" down to the corner of the CV 1 station

Ok I will get to map later but wanted to say that in enter 77 they were following Locke's directions according to what he saw from Eko's stick. I don't remember seeing any compass issues. They made a big deal out of Locke's directions in that ep.

Also wanted to say Ikon, you do make some good points and I you do have a right to voice something you're not happy with in an effort to have it explained. Hopefully it will be explained to everyone's satisfaction. Same goes for Bongo but you seem a little more adament that you are a stickler on this point and you seem to be one of the people who thinks the writers have no idea what they are doing. I am sure that's not the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
100%
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vakaruge.com/temp/LOST/Lost-Map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vakaruge.com/temp/LOST/&h=3044&w=6998&sz=1339&hl=en&start=24&um=1&tbnid=5Q6SeJslCcbmlM:&tbnh=65&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlost%2Bmap%2B%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D2 0%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Ok this is a pretty good map of the island but there is a better cap of the original that Sayid found with scale. I can't remember where I saw it and I saved the page somewhere but of course didn't label - really cool scale map of the island. Anyway all this talk of rivers and such got me thinking, hey I saw some rivers on that map. So the rivers and the ocean look a fair distance from camp but without a scale we can't tell. I promise to look for the map with scale on it and screencap it for you unless someone else knows where it is.

If it's been posted already can someone please direct me, I only found the one cap of the map and it's of Sayid holding it.

Ok more on this later :)
100%
http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~andorfc/paint.html

Ok you have to scroll down a little but now that I look again, the scale looks wrong?? It makes it look like the island is much smaller than I thought...let me know what you think. According to this map there are rivers quite close to othersville and it wouldn't take long at all to get to them or the ocean. Anyway like I said I don't know about the scale...

give me your thoughts

In this episode, Locke demanded Alex take him to the sub. Which was in some dock on the shoreline. Right?

Ok so my question is, where the heck are they? They are in Other Villaige that we saw in the s3 premiere right??? (show in the link)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

So please explain how Alex took Locke to any shoreline on the island in what appeared to be minutes (definately less than hours since it's still nightfall) considering where other village is located AND considering how long it took the Losties to get there originally


Sorry folks, to me, this one is a little too big to ignore.

I just hit reply, sorry but i didnt want to read through 9 pages....anyway, maybe someone already said this, but....remember sayids map, the one that showed the subterainean passages.....perhaps they walked out of the immediate area they were in, into one of the said passages, traveled through them...maybe on a rail system or something like that......exit out of it, then, we see them in the jungle right before alex says the subs rightover there.....maybe maybe not. Plus, they never really establish how long that took, or, how much later after locke left that jack and juliet came to see ben....

I don't understand why this is so confusing. The submarine was obviously located in a large body of water, river, lagoon, ocean, or whatever. The pull-back during ATOTC doesn't show any sort of body of water within immediate distance of Otherville.While it might be fun to speculate about 10 km long underground passages and the possiblity that the submarine navigates via an underground waterway, the simple explanation is that they made a mistake. If this were any other show, people would not be so quick to attribute such a mistake to a "master plan" or whatever. They simply used the shot in ATOTC to shock the viewer, but when it became a problem for the location of the submarine, they just ignored it.

I don't understand why this is so confusing. The submarine was obviously located in a large body of water, river, lagoon, ocean, or whatever. The pull-back during ATOTC doesn't show any sort of body of water within immediate distance of Otherville.While it might be fun to speculate about 10 km long underground passages and the possiblity that the submarine navigates via an underground waterway, the simple explanation is that they made a mistake. If this were any other show, people would not be so quick to attribute such a mistake to a "master plan" or whatever. They simply used the shot in ATOTC to shock the viewer, but when it became a problem for the location of the submarine, they just ignored it.

And I don't understand why it has to be a mistake. We're not just speculating about underground passages, Sayid's map shows a path clearly labeled "Subterranean Passage". Unless the map is wrong for some reason, there are underground passages connected to the Barracks.

I believe that they are walking passages leading to a sheltered lagoon where the submarine is (was?) docked.

-AJF

I want to restate that I have advocated the tunnel theory since season one. Whether you call it a subterranean passage or tunnel transit system or whatever. I've been saying it since they heard the whispers.


So I'm not saying that I disagree with the tunnel idea. I am saying do you really think Alex took Locke through a tunnel passage in this episode? And Juliet took Jack? And it was just a plot point they decided not to tell us about nor give any of the characters involved any expression of the fact they just went through a hidden transit system ??


Further, Danielle saw Alex near the dock. How did she end up there? It is safe to assume Danielle didn't wander several miles away above ground and then coincidentally see them when they got to the dock? The way it was portrayed showed the dock was not far from the villiage and neither was Danielle.

This wasn't shown in a way that can be ambigious that they can later say 'fooled you' like the great job they did with Locke's paralysis in Walkabout. It seemed like they just overlooked a piece of important canon they instituted only 13 episode ago


Agian if i'm wrong I will retract my statements. Until then, the criticism is warranted.

I'm not saying that I don't believe that there are underground passages, I just don't think one was used to get from the Otherville to the submarine. It wouldn't have been difficult to show us that in the episode, unless they wanted to trick people who are wondering why there wasn't a lagoon near the town in the opening of ATOTC.

:twocents:...

I didn't even think about it until I saw this thread, and I am someone who does a fair to heavy amount of analysis of the show. To me that says that no casual viewer is going to notice or care, and therefore it's really not that big of a deal, whether there is a rational explanation for the discrepancy or not.

no casual viewer is going to notice or care, and therefore it's really not that big of a deal, whether there is a rational explanation for the discrepancy or not.

I don't think that just because a casual viewer doesn't notice or care about something, it makes that thing not a big deal. There are lots of things which casual viewers don't notice or care about, which are very important to the show.

I don't want to sound condescending, but I'd suggest watching the last 2 episodes back to back - then it really makes it stand out. You see them walk through the ring, and approach the camp, then at the end of the next episode, Alex and John walk right out again, and the Sonic Ring is just ignored, it was a really obvious thing to me. When Alex took John out to take him to the sub, I was instantly thinking 'this will be cool, we'll see how the Others get out of the Sonic Ring!' then it just doesn't show anything and poof they are at the sub. It suggested to me that the sub was within the Ring, very close to the village - and that seemed even crazier, as we've seen wide shots of the village in TOTC and there was no water that close to be within the Ring.

For some odd reason I can't accept the idea that this is a plot error. Like others have mentioned, this episode came just after we were introduced to the fence and the Losties treck through the jungle. For the writers to suddenly forget that there are tunnels and fences that have to features seems unlikely.

On the other hand, I also am confused by the obvious issue of the sub being a little too close.

I don't want to sound condescending, but I'd suggest watching the last 2 episodes back to back - then it really makes it stand out. You see them walk through the ring, and approach the camp, then at the end of the next episode, Alex and John walk right out again, and the Sonic Ring is just ignored, it was a really obvious thing to me. When Alex took John out to take him to the sub, I was instantly thinking 'this will be cool, we'll see how the Others get out of the Sonic Ring!' then it just doesn't show anything and poof they are at the sub. It suggested to me that the sub was within the Ring, very close to the village - and that seemed even crazier, as we've seen wide shots of the village in TOTC and there was no water that close to be within the Ring.

Suppose the maps showing the ring were just plans that were never finished. There was a purge after all.
Just offering another "out" for the writers.

There is no way Alex and Juliet took John and Jack through an underground tunnel and we didn't see it.

However the Submarine having to exit the lake its being kept at through an underground, underwater tunnel explains why they need a submarine in the first place.

As I've said before they could easily have moved behind the ridge closest to Othersville,
which explains why we cant see this lake on the areal shot.
(thou its quite apparent on the swan map, directly north of the questionmark)

Last point is the fence, according to Sayids map there is a circle that goes around what seems to be the others barracks,
but we don't know if that was what they where looking at at all, when Mikhail told them to check their map.

I still believe the Fence is outside the valley.
When moving into the fence they seemed to be moving upward,
and if u place the fence inside the valley you can see the village from a high vantage point,
not good for security.
(plus from that position they should be moving down not up.)

-Exodus

I got the impression the sonic perimeter fence surrounded a very large area, not just the built-up area?

Ok first of all, why couldn't they have gone through a tunnel that we didn't see...as for Danielle, she could very well have found the same tunnel. I am still not convinced that she was not an other at one time or another.

Second of all, you can't see everything on that screencap of the map that was posted. And until we see the barracks key, there is no way to know which line represents the sonic fence. After looking at this cap however... http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfjTRZBZNSI/AAAAAAAACbw/glVgTlWsLwg/s1600-h/Image19.jpg and comparing with the other one of the full map it looks like there is a subterranean passage leading towards the flame station as well as another one heading in the other direction that branches off. I think that one of these leads to the submarine. I also think that the dotted line going in the direction of the flame is the sonic fence. This would make sense since this is the direction that the losties were coming from. There may be other security measures on the other sides or it may be just too difficult to traverse through the parts where there is no fence. I remember there being talk of going around the fence...no??

Ok I just compared the hatch maps to Sayid's map and it doesn't make sense. They can't be in the othersville that we saw at the beginning of Season 3 because the flame hatch is on the right and a bit north unless this map has north in a weird spot. Am I missing something here??? Besides which it says barracks which would indicate somewhere other than a home wouldn't it??

What's also confusing is it appears that the hydra is on the island just to the south of the losties beach so it looks like a long way to travel all the way back to othersville.

Like I said I could have completely missed something that has been discussed already. I didn't have internet for a long time...:eek2:

The Lost creators decided to just cut the part that takes us through an underground passage?
We have never seen any underground passages that wasn't a hatch on this Island yet, and they don't even show Locke exiting from it when he leaves Alex behind.
No that would be a very irresponsible move.

The notion that this is not in fact the same encampment of houses that we saw in the season opening is interesting though, have we seen anything else that could lead us to this conclusion ?

-Exodus

Good point about the underground passage way.

Ditto this. We know for a fact they have underground passageways (a la the hatch).

I'm just saying perhaps they didn't show it on purpose...they know we will be studying the map so maybe we are supposed to be trying to figure this out... :cool: I wouldn't put it past them.

Yes, I am very confused about the location of the barracks after looking at the hatch maps ...I am assuming of course that the Dharma symbol of the flame in the corner of Sayid's map is the flame station which would indicate that the barracks is southwest of that which also seems rather close to the losties camp. Tis strange... :eek2:

I saw somewhere as well that even though there is a scale on Sayid's map, Locke said it wasn't to scale??

I wish we could get a good shot of the barracks key on the map, that would tell us where the fence is exactly I bet. It looks like Sayid's thumb is purposely in the way in that shot.

Ok I just compared the hatch maps to Sayid's map and it doesn't make sense. They can't be in the othersville that we saw at the beginning of Season 3 because the flame hatch is on the right and a bit north unless this map has north in a weird spot. Am I missing something here??? Besides which it says barracks which would indicate somewhere other than a home wouldn't it??


I think what you're missing is the fact that the writers no longer remain consistent. Your confusion is making my point.

So you're saying that they have completely ignored a huge part of the plot ie. the hatch map and have switched the locations around. Highly doubtful. I won't say it's impossible but I really don't see how this could happen.

Are you sure that the others are in their original location?? If so, what makes you positive, if the evidence is to the contrary? If they are southwest of the flame then it's entirely possible they are much closer to a sheltered lagoon and I think there is a river nearby as well. Can't be sure on that one. I have to check out the screencaps of the barracks again.

Of course all this lagoon talk reminds me of Gilligan's Island...let's not talk about the plot inconsistencies on that show....:eek2:

I think what you're missing is the fact that the writers no longer remain consistent. Your confusion is making my point.

Well, to be fair, if the location of the submarine doesn't match up to information from previous episodes, that could be the locations manager's fault. We don't know what was written in the script.

Also, I think the fact that the scene took place in the dark of night was intentionally meant to obscure our view of the location, so it's impossible to tell if they're on the beach or on a small lake/river/whatever.

I have never seen the ocean look like that and have been around them most of my life
I have seen the ocean that flat at night and it was spectacular, the full moon reflecting off it lit up our entire cabin through the portholes. Seeing flat still water neither proves nor disproves the water is ocean or river or canal or lake or sludge pond.

However the Submarine having to exit the lake its being kept at through an underground, underwater tunnel explains why they need a submarine in the first place.Huh? Only if they insist on docking the submarine at the inland end of the underground passage instead of at the sea shore. A ship at an ocean dock works fine if you are willing to cross a little land area between Otherville and the dock. I don't think the existance of an underground water passage would be justification for saying they need a sub and can not use a surface boat. They certainly weren't taking the boat they gave Michael through an underwater passage.

Otherville in the aerial view did not appear to be near sea level in elevation. Rivers and or canals on the steep slopes this island seems to have, would need a system of locks. I vote against a canal system.

To me a lot of the arguments in this thread depend on having a fairly accurate time span for Alex & Locke’s trip to the sub combined with an assumption that they walked the entire distance i.e. no bikes or other transit devices. Does anyone have something from the show that can be used to calculate a reasonable estimate of the time frame involved. Perhaps one that gets within half an hour plus or minus? I think the need to haul cargo/supplies around argues for Otherville being close to the docks or for them to have an established transportation infrastructure. A system that we have never seen unless Smokey serves as their stevadore?:eek2: I think having Otherville close to an ocean dock would contradict the views we have had of it from the air.

Huh? Only if they insist on docking the submarine at the inland end of the underground passage instead of at the sea shore. A ship at an ocean dock works fine if you are willing to cross a little land area between Otherville and the dock. I don't think the existance of an underground water passage would be justification for saying they need a sub and can not use a surface boat. They certainly weren't taking the boat they gave Michael through an underwater passage.

Otherville in the aerial view did not appear to be near sea level in elevation. Rivers and or canals on the steep slopes this island seems to have, would need a system of locks. I vote against a canal system.


First of all, they would dock the sub closest to their base.
Good point on the rest, look at this:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg
and
http://www.lostpedia.com/images/3/3c/Fullblastdoor.jpg

Compare the two, lets imagine the the circle around the questionmark is the whole valley Othersville is in.
To the south, south-east theres a river passing by that forks off to the south-west, we cant see this river on the map because its below what we see from the camera.
(Assuming the camera is facing north)
Above the questionmark, north-east, there seems to be a lake with two smaller islands on it.
We cant see this lake on the areal photo because its behind the ridge, where the ground seems to descend alot.
That would be the closest body of water from the others camp,
and therefore the most likely place we saw in last weeks episode.
This lake could easily be a lagoon connected through natural underwater canals of water, something that is not uncommon on volcanic islands.
And for all we know its at sea level, barring the need for any kind of canal-locks.

-Exodus

After looking at this cap however... http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfjTRZBZNSI/AAAAAAAACbw/glVgTlWsLwg/s1600-h/Image19.jpg and comparing with the other one of the full map it looks like there is a subterranean passage leading towards the flame station as well as another one heading in the other direction that branches off.If you look at the top photo in linerk's link, you can see a large round thing just to the right of the circled "5". Find that round thing on the bottom photo. That looks to me like it could be water. And there appears to be an underground passage coming out of it. That would explain the sub being close, as well as not having to exit the fence.

Anyways, I'm becoming convinced that the barracks is not the same as Otherville. After all, if the Others were there before Dharma, would they not have their own village?
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I think what you're missing is the fact that the writers no longer remain consistent.Hmm. Have they actually said the Barracks is Otherville? Perhaps the assumption they are the same place is incorrect. As you pointed out, we have several indications they're not.

First of all, they would dock the sub closest to their base.That would be the most convenient thing to do if the transfer of cargo and people is the main consideration. But without knowing why they chose their housing site we can only assume it and the sub dock can be close to each other. The area of the sub dock could be unsuitable for foundationsetc.

That would be the closest body of water from the others camp,
and therefore the most likely place we saw in last weeks episode.
..................And for all we know its at sea level, barring the need for any kind of canal-locks. In which case all it would take is a developed pathway/road or whatever leading down the slope to lake/lagoon level which due to terrain is out of sight in the aerial shot. That could work and it could easily be a mile or more between the sub dock and the "town"

Anyways, I'm becoming convinced that the barracks is not the same as Otherville. After all, if the Others were there before Dharma, would they not have their own village? To me this town looks like a Dharma installation.

Hey - I've been comparing Sayid's map to the Blast Door Map, and i've got some ideas. If we assume that Sayid's map is oriented in the usual north-south direction (it doesn't affect my idea if it is or not; I just need a point of reference to work with) and look at the Dharmatel relays/tunnels leaving from the flame. they spread out in a general westerly direction. Now, if we look at the Blast Door Map, the Dharmatel relays/tunnels spread out towards the right. So, I submit that the Blast Door map is in fact "upside-down", which would put the barracks in the direction of The Staff and/or the scratched out station. Because there is no scale on the Blast Door Map, it's impossible to tell if the barracks are beyond these stations, or within the octagon formed by the stations.

Either way, the notes on this area of the Blast Door Map tell us some interesting stuff. First of all, I want to point out that putting the medical station close to the barracks would have been a logical thing for the Dharma-planners to do, and I think it very likely. There is also the mysterous scratched-out station. Could this station still exist, and if so, what's going on there?? Is it under the control of The Others?? Lastly, a note on the map says that travel to this area of the island should not be attempted, due to the 108 minute time limit. So this would help explain the little contact Kelvin had, if any, with The Others, and also the ambiguity of the scrached-out station.

Ya, the more I think about it, the more I think it isn't othersville. That would have been a very long trip for Ben to make in his state. Looking at the caps at the beginning of the ep with Jack playing football, this place looks like it could be much smaller than othersville. I could be wrong. The room that Ben is in may not be his room at all - maybe it's someone else's who lives at the barracks permanently. Or they have residences in both places. It would make sense for them to be able to move if one place was threatened...look at how many hatches there are, why not multiple camps as well??

Weird little thing I noticed...when Jack, Kate and Sawyer were being held captive on Alcatraz after Sun shot Colleen - Ben says "the sub is back" and then they bring in an injured Colleen. So obviously they took the sub out to attack Sayid/Jin/Sun on the sailboat - I hadn't noticed that before and had assumed that they took a regular boat. So they must have or have had a sub at Alcatraz - did they bring it back to the main island then?? Or are there two subs?? Just thought this was interesting and I'm not trying to add fodder for you doubters.

I also wanted to know if the OP (Ikon - I think that was you) or one of you other doubters has posted the question to the VIP's. I didn't see anything there...and if not, why not. I would like to know what they have to say about this.
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First of all, they would dock the sub closest to their base.


That would be the most convenient thing to do if the transfer of cargo and people is the main consideration. But without knowing why they chose their housing site we can only assume it and the sub dock can be close to each other. The area of the sub dock could be unsuitable for foundationsetc.

This got posted while I was posting and it bolsters my point about being in a place other than othersville. They had the sub at Alcatraz so they would have to bring it with them back to main island and if they had to stop at the barracks instead of othersville (assuming the two are different) then they would have it with them still. :biggrin:

There is no way Alex and Juliet took John and Jack through an underground tunnel and we didn't see it.

However the Submarine having to exit the lake its being kept at through an underground, underwater tunnel explains why they need a submarine in the first place.

As I've said before they could easily have moved behind the ridge closest to Othersville,
which explains why we cant see this lake on the areal shot.
(thou its quite apparent on the swan map, directly north of the questionmark)

Last point is the fence, according to Sayids map there is a circle that goes around what seems to be the others barracks,
but we don't know if that was what they where looking at at all, when Mikhail told them to check their map.

I still believe the Fence is outside the valley.
When moving into the fence they seemed to be moving upward,
and if u place the fence inside the valley you can see the village from a high vantage point,
not good for security.
(plus from that position they should be moving down not up.)

-Exodus

The whole point of Mikhail telling the Losties to check the map was to show them that the pylons indeed surround the entire Barracks...if you remember, they were talking about going around the end of the Pylon fence to get to the barracks.

If the fence is outside the valley, it wouldn't have showed up on the map, and a look at the map in this situation would have been meaningless.

It's not that odd to me that John going through the tunnel wasn't shown. The oddest part to me is the lack of guards. No one was guarding the submarine. If there was a tunnel, no one was guarding it. Wouldn't the sub be guarded to prevent homesick Others from stealing the sub and escaping from the island?

-AJF

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg


Everybody stumbled to explain how in the world they reached the sub so quickly? And that screen cap of yours made me dizzy. Go in whatever direction, however fast, you just cant make to the shoreline that quickly!!! N-O!

And Ben sayin run & u shall make the shoreline in an hour. THEY BETTER EXPLAIN THAT I didnt think of it that time cuz I was awwwwed by the zoom-out shot.

There is no way, tunnels or otherwise, Ethan or Nathan could reach there in an hour. AWFUL.

There is no way, tunnels or otherwise, Ethan or Nathan could reach there in an hour. AWFUL.
You're absolutely right.
I live in a location that has this kind of topography, with mountains zooming up not too far from the shoreline, and I can vouch that it would be extremely difficult for somewhere to make it to where the beach was in an hour. Even if they were in a car doing 40 mph, it would still take some time to get to where the debris fell.

This is to the OP. Buddy u have done great by pointing this out & bringin in the discussion about Suspension oif Disbelief. One point is, Lost has ruled our lives. So for many come as many plot holes or plot-craters, they would always be mysteries-to-be-solved & something that writers would eventually explain.

As someone said its the journey & not destination which makes for truly great experience.


I love LOST but it saddens me to see it being a object of ridicule by wirters on various sites & magazines. They site Lost as an example of how unwieldy a show can become under its own burden.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9351/craterev6.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9351/craterev6.jpg

Nice!

-Exodus

In this episode, Locke demanded Alex take him to the sub. Which was in some dock on the shoreline. Right?

Ok so my question is, where the heck are they? They are in Other Villaige that we saw in the s3 premiere right??? (show in the link)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/riverfr0zen/lost_other.jpg

So please explain how Alex took Locke to any shoreline on the island in what appeared to be minutes (definately less than hours since it's still nightfall) considering where other village is located AND considering how long it took the Losties to get there originally


Sorry folks, to me, this one is a little too big to ignore.

Not a plot hole. They knew there was a sub from the beginning of the season

You just cant see the canal in the photo just and you cant see many lakes rivers and streams when covered by trees. In fact, from the highest point on Long Island, I cant see any of the streams...not one..so dont let stuff lke this bother you

Also it seems the sub leaves through a subterranean passage(from the electrical map).

Arguing about how long it takes to get there is just about the most useless thing a person can do. Its TV people. I love ya..but your not meant to care about such meaningless stuff. When you do this--you miss the story in favor of the details. This is why plot points have to be explained on a regular basis here. If you concentrated on depth, and themes in Lost's writing, it would answer the questions you want to know

You want to talk about something interesting?..that electrical system is Lockes next target. There is no reason to show that system unless is it going to be screwed with. I explain my thoughts more here

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=73907

Compare the two, lets imagine the the circle around the questionmark is the whole valley Othersville is in.-Exodus


do we then ignore that the question mark was where Eko's brother's plane crashed? Or do we assume they were trying to get to the question mark and THOUGHT that pearl station was it and the GIANT QUESTION MARK burned into the grass was a coincidence???


or more plot inconsistencies?
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This is to the OP. Buddy u have done great by pointing this out & bringin in the discussion about Suspension oif Disbelief. One point is, Lost has ruled our lives. So for many come as many plot holes or plot-craters, they would always be mysteries-to-be-solved & something that writers would eventually explain.

As someone said its the journey & not destination which makes for truly great experience.


I love LOST but it saddens me to see it being a object of ridicule by wirters on various sites & magazines. They site Lost as an example of how unwieldy a show can become under its own burden.

I think I'm missing your point in this. I am fully aware of the journey, not destination ideal for watching this show and embrace it. Season 1 the journey was incredible. Season two wasn't far off. And again I am continuing to enjoy the story but, and touching on your second point I have always been burdened with inscrutable objectivity. On this board, about this show that isn't always a positive thing and I have no issue with that. This is a fan board. I too am a fan above all else

I guess that's why I have a problem with this. To me, I don't think I'm being over analytical by finding a problem with holes in their storytelling. I mean on the one hand I listen to them pat themselves on the back in yesterday's abc.com podcast because they revealed Danielle's map that Sayid found in season 1 actually had the Alcactraz island on it, proving they are thinking ahead. Then on the other hand you run into the debacle talked about in this thread. I'm the first one to give this show credit for being revolutionary, but that doesn't mean I"ll shut up when I think it deserves criticism.


I think the mainstream media has a very good point with their criticisms of the show in it's current incarnation. There are a lot of problems and a lot of great talents going to waste because they don't seem to be on the same page. And avid fans then refute mainstream critiques saying they don't get the show. Well when that mainstream was touting season 1 as genius, we all agreed with them and felt they knew what they were talking about then. So what changed? They got dumber? or we got more loyal? I'm voting for the latter

I am sick of plotholes because they hurt my enjoyment of the show. The crazy premise of this show was told in such amazing fashion that I found it totally believable. The implausible mysteries were intriguing because I wanted to know more and if they were able to make the premise believable then I had faith they could do the same with the rest. But like flight 815 i am seein gthings slowly come apart and crash. I hope I'm wrong. I thought that near the middle of season 2 too. then the final 3-4 episodes blew my mind.

I don't mind a wait and see approach, but in the meantime I will voice my criticisms...I don't think that makes me any less of a fan. Just more objective than most perhaps.
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I also wanted to know if the OP (Ikon - I think that was you) or one of you other doubters has posted the question to the VIP's. I didn't see anything there...and if not, why not. I would like to know what they have to say about this.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=73823

do we then ignore that the question mark was where Eko's brother's plane crashed? Or do we assume they were trying to get to the question mark and THOUGHT that pearl station was it and the GIANT QUESTION MARK burned into the grass was a coincidence???


Ah but u are right, I'm sorry.
The questionmark has already been covered.
THIS however:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9351/craterev6.jpg

Pretty much explains it all.

-Exodus

@ikonn


http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1454549&postcount=117
Sorry, I was in a hurry when I posted that.

Well, What I meant was that I, for one, appreciate your topic irrespective of what others might refer to as nitpicking. As a fan you have every right to voice your criticism just as you can adulate the show to high levels. Accept it or dont watch it is a statement in bad taste.

As for the journey, what I meant was the journey should be enjoyable. I wouldnt give a damn if after going through horrendous 6 seasons they make a FANTASTIC-GREAT-SUPERB revelation. The journey through the 6 seasons should be rewarding. Alas! the plot-hole-pile keeps on increasing.

No problems with being over-analytical! Aren't we exactly that when we discuss the plus-points?!

About the last podcast, the questions chosen were really lame. Boones hair were discussed just so that the fans dont scream about the discrepancy later. But, this hair thing is the PRIME EXAMPLE where a discrepancy has to be overlooked because it is really very trivial. And the pat on the back for Season-1 map? Yea that was a good one. But come on, there are many more serious inconsistencies & loose threads dangling. (What do you get for that, floggin on your back or jus suspension of our disbelief) Maybe, next time they will select better questions.

And yea, they did not forget to make a pre-emptive strike by saying it beforehand that many people might scream "lost jumped the shark" with Exposé. Smart move!

In the end, what I meant was that I appreciate your view points & of all those who point out major consistencies & discrepancies in the plot, since it is because of you guys that we are reminded that Lost is meant to be an intelligent show & how it respectively follows & diverges from that path!

You're taking this screencap from the season 3 premier as evidence in favor of your claim, but are omitting the lines from the very same scene which contradict it!

Ben - "If you run, you should be able to make that shore in an hour."

The real issue is how they got through the fence. I'm sure this discrepency was intentonal, because the orientatoin of the fence was just laid out in the previous episode. I think this is just another mystery, that will get an answer somewhere down the line.

They have underground passages. That was shown in another thread.

They have underground passages. That was shown in another thread.

Right; of course they do. How else would they have gotten through the fence so quickly?

The whole point of Mikhail telling the Losties to check the map was to show them that the pylons indeed surround the entire Barracks...if you remember, they were talking about going around the end of the Pylon fence to get to the barracks.

Does anyone remember exactly what was said?? Because as you just pointed out they were talking about going around the end of the fence....woudn't that indicate that it isn't a circle?? I remember them saying something about it being too hard to go around but I can't remember if he said it was in a circle...I will watch again and find out. They would have already consulted the map at this point and looked at the barracks key I assume.

Thanks Ikon, I didn't see your question there so thanks and I am waiting anxiously to hear the answer. :)

@ikonn

And the pat on the back for Season-1 map? Yea that was a good one.



So they had the Alcatraz plotline concocted back in Season 1? Yeah... More like they were looking at the Season 1 map, saw that there was another island drawn on it, and said, "well, let's do something with that other island since it's already there."

Ok I don't know if everyone's seen the new one yet or not so I will spoilerfont just in case.

We saw Juliet and Ben in the Pearl and they obviously didn't get there throught the hatch so I'm guessing underground tunnel. Of course we didn't see them use the tunnel but it must be there because if they came through the hatch they would have noticed it open and known someone else was there no?? Glad to see the writers proving that they do plan these things and aren't just flying by the seat of their pants. :biggrin:

Nope, haven't seen it yet and I am stopping myself from revealing the spoiler. I just hope this episode provides some explanations. Thanks for using the spoiler tags.

Pardon me, but the duh factor is overwhelming here. Please note the areas marked "subterranean passage" on the wiring map. Not having to navigate through jungle would allow someone to walk a mile in 20 minutes without breathing hard.

I've seen the map, but I can't read the words on it very well. Do you know where a good screen shot is for that?

If there are tunnels, then that would explain it. Alex would have been able shown Locke where the tunnel was and they could avoid the security fence that way.

Some thoughts:

1) the fence could have been shut off

2) "get there in an hour" could have been a statement and not a declaration of fact. Like how someone would say "In a minute." Do you really expect someone to be done at exactly 60 seconds? Don't take things too literally.

3) Just because we didn't see Locke and Alex use the tunnel doesn't mean they never did. Lost is a show that loves to expand on previously shown scenes with flashbacks/episodes expanding on a scene. For instance, remember the scene when they get into the hatch and only later reveal in that same sequence, Kate was in the opposite side behind the wall?

Ok I don't know if everyone's seen the new one yet or not so I will spoilerfont just in case.

We saw Juliet and Ben in the Pearl and they obviously didn't get there throught the hatch so I'm guessing underground tunnel. Of course we didn't see them use the tunnel but it must be there because if they came through the hatch they would have noticed it open and known someone else was there no?

A comment on your spoiler also in spoiler font just in case although I'm sure everyone has seen it by now.

Ben did notice it was open. As Juliet and Ben enter Ben says: "Who left this open?" Juliet: "Tom was down here a couple of days ago." Ben: "Have him cover it up with the plane." When Locke and Eko discover the hatch it is covered by the plane.
The fact is we don't yet know how the Others got to the sub or where the sub was docked. The picture we have of the crater is just too far away to show the presence or absence of a hidden channel/lagoon/river. Until we are told how or the series ends we can't say there is a plothole. The most we can say is we don't know or we suspect. TPTB like to save bits like this for a later reveal just like they saved the above bit for the last episode.

IMNSHO I think the fence surrounds the perimeter and can't be turned off. This means there are only a few underground entrances to guard. There was probably some sort of transport in the tunnel to bring the workers to the barracks from the dock. They weren't going to walk large distances after working all day.

crashgrab, I posted a close up of the map a few pages back. Here is is again... http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfjTRZBZNSI/AAAAAAAACbw/glVgTlWsLwg/s1600-h/Image19.jpg

Ok I rewatched the ep with the compass and Mikhail talking about the fence. Yes he did indeed say the fence goes around the entire barracks. So my only guess on that one is they used an underground tunnel. The reason that I think Juliet and Ben used one of these is because they only noticed the hatch being open as they were walking in. If they had used the hatch to come in, wouldn't Ben have pointed this out when they were outside?? It doesn't make sense to come all they way down and only mention it after they get inside. Besides which we see Juliet padding around barefoot. I know we saw them running around barefoot in season 2 but we don't know what kind of distance they were covering and the pearl seems like a long way to go aboveground barefoot.

As for the compass....Sayid actually points out that they are using a compass bearing set by what Locke saw on Eko's stick. They are simply using the compass to go in the same direction not necessarily the correct direction according to the compass.

Ikon, I think that the fans have become more loyal and are expecting a lot so when anything seems out of place it is immediately jumped on and picked apart. I will continue to have faith in the writers and let them tell the story. There is no irrefutable proof as of yet that they are
1. in othersville as seen in the photo
2. they didn't use some sort of underground tunnel
and 3. the writers don't know where they are going

I think they proved in the last episode that they did have plans ahead of time so I say just have faith.

The reason that I think Juliet and Ben used one of these is because they only noticed the hatch being open as they were walking in. If they had used the hatch to come in, wouldn't Ben have pointed this out when they were outside?? It doesn't make sense to come all they way down and only mention it after they get inside. Maybe they were in the middle of a conversation? If Ben was making a point about something, he may have finished that first and only then thought to ask about the hatch? Anyway, I suspect it was timed more for the audience's sake than reality's.

Also, why would Tom use the hatch if they had underground passages? The bare feet thing was part of their "costume" (note Juliet and Ben were both in rags). Why would they be in costume if they were tooling around underground?

Ok excuse my long post but I just remembered something from reading another thread. When Tom and the others come across the raft way back when - it's possible they are taking their boat from the barracks to Alcatraz or vice versa - they see the flare and go to investigate. Maybe they lucked out finding the raft with Walt aboard...

If that's the case, there's a strong case for the barracks being very close to lostie beach as it would be if the directions and the flame station are correct on the map. Alcatraz island appears to be south of the main island so it would be a rather long trek to go from the far north of the island to Alcatraz on that little boat. JMHO...just some thoughts. :)
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Maybe they were in the middle of a conversation? If Ben was making a point about something, he may have finished that first and only then thought to ask about the hatch? Anyway, I suspect it was timed more for the audience's sake than reality's.

Also, why would Tom use the hatch if they had underground passages? The bare feet thing was part of their "costume" (note Juliet and Ben were both in rags). Why would they be in costume if they were tooling around underground?

I still doubt they Ben wouldn't have mentioned it right away when they got to the hatch. Given that they know there are other people on the island now, I think it would have been checked first.

Tom may have been aboveground already tracking the tailies or keeping an eye out for our group. When Ben and Juliet look at the monitor it's most likely after Sawyer returns with the tailies and is sick in bed so it's not that long after Cindy was taken. They have the walkie talkies to communicate.

Also didn't look like they were in rags to me, I'm going to watch again later so I will look again but it looked to me like they came from a different direction than Paulo as well.

At least we definitely now know it wasn't a sub at the beach.
It was a sub at a secluded concealed lagoon.

Gregg also confirmed that the othersville is close to the ocean...so my theory of the other othersville was wrong but oh well...:biggrin: