Hey guys

I know as people think about the episode they will start to realize that it seems like Juilet leaving Jack made no sense. Why hook up with Kate when she just should have woke up Jack?

But it seems clear to me that they were showing that Juilet misread Jack

She thought Jack was stuck on Kate and now that the Others were gone he would ditch her and gravitate toward Kate--thats why she told Kate to wake up Jack..she was affraid of Jacks reaction and threw Kate a bone for all her deception

But as the scene played out ---it showed Jack loves Juilet and he even treated her better than Kate. You can see Kate realize Juilet was mistaken when Jack asked about Juilet. Kate knew she was off the hook (she didnt break Jacks heart)and that Juilet had misread Jacks feelings

This is all so crystal clear when you consider the scene where Juilet spouts out Jacks height and weight and all these other "stats" as if that shows what a person feels. A folder of Jacks life actually taught Juilet nothing about Jack

So her leaving Jack there may have seemed puzzling at first...but I think the script accounted for Juiet's bizzare choice

BTW
many themes tonight

Banishment--Sawyer/Juilet
Forgiveness---.Kates father's treatment of her mother/Juilets treatment of Jack(all a signal for Kate to not harm Juliet )
Accepting people for who they are---Sawyer/ Juilet
Misreading peoples feelings---Kate misreads her mother/ Juilet misreads Jack

I am confused when did Juliet leave Jack?

I know as people think about the episode they will start to realze that it seems like Juilet leaving Jack made no sense. Why hook up with Kate when she just should have woke up Jack?

But it seems clear to me that they were showing that Juilet misread Jack

She thought Jack was stuck on Kate and now that the Others were gone he would ditch her and gravitate toward Kate--thats why she told Kate to wake up Jack..she was affraid of Jacks reaction and threw Kate a bone for all her deception

But as the scene played out ---it showed Jack loves Juilet and he even treated her better than Kate. You can see Kate realize Juilet was mistaken when Jack asked about Juilet. Kate knew she was off the hook (she didnt break Jacks heart)and that Juilet had misread Jacks feelings

This is all so crystal clear when you consider the scene where Juilet spouts out Jacks height and weight and all these other "stats" as if that shows what a person feels. A folder of Jacks life actually taught Juilet nothing about Jack

So her leaving Jack there may have seem puzzling at first...but I think the script accounted for Juiet's bizzare choice
Juliet knew exactly what she was doing and she certainly accomplished what she set otu to do. She absolutely had help carrying Kate out into the junge. She was not gassed. She intended to divide and conquer. She needed to keep things tense between Kate and Jack so they wouldn't compare notes. When she told Kate about the cage sex, like any skillful manipulator, she wove both truth and fabrication together to paint the picture she wanted seen. She said that she was with Jack when he saw the video feed. She was NOT. Ben was with him. Why would she lie? Hmmm. Then when she was reciting everything she knew about Jack, she was starting to plant the jealous seed in Kate. If Kate would have thought about it, she would have known that the Others know quite a bit about all of them - that Sawyer's name is James, that they told Locke what she did. Why wouldn't they have "facts" on Jack, too? Kate could have said something that she knew from being around Jack, but she was too ashamed by then to say anything. Juliet needed time to work her magic on Kate (Kate's fb reveals a bonding with Cassidy, that she was somehow comparing with her experience with Juliet). So, Jack was gassed more than once (multiple canisters in his house). Then when they return, Kate is hesitant to say too much to Jack because she doesn't know what to say. Jack, for his part, feels responsible for Juliet being left behind by her people - because, he thinks, of her helping Kate and Sawyer escape. He is basing his newfound trust in Juliet on the branding and the apparent abandonment of her. He doesn't love Juliet, but he is beginning to trust her because he thinks Kate has made her choice and doesn't have his back anymore. He, too, isn't thinking clearly and so is in reality leading her back to camp - where the Others want her to be. Hopefully Sayid will be able to save the day.

Sayid may be out of the torture business after his last flash back -

many themes tonight:
Banishment--Sawyer/Juliet
Forgiveness--Kate's father's treatment of her mother/Juliet's treatment of Jack
Accepting people for who they are--Sawyer/ Juilet
Misreading people's feelings--Kate misreads her mother/ Juilet misreads Jack

I'm so glad you mentioned these themes, as I noticed several parallells, too.
When I saw Juliet with Kate, I said, Ha! Juliet got "voted off" too, just like Hurley had said to Sawyer.

I also thought that maybe the one "Left Behind" wasn't just Juliet, but Kate too, because of the way Jack & Juliet fell into step together so easily, without a backwards look at Kate. Essentially saying to Kate, "We don't need/want you."

Maybe they are trying to exploit Kate's weakness - she seems to be forever in need of the love of the man she can't have -
the old boyfriend was married she couldn't be with him - she seems to want only the ones she cannot have - and suddenly she cannot have Jack where before she could pick between him and Saywer -
Now she will feel left out - left behind more in a emotional way rather than physical way

juilet is going to let kate have a chance at getting jack back. or it was a mind game.

Originally Posted by John Burger
many themes tonight:
Banishment--Sawyer/Juliet
Forgiveness--Kate's father's treatment of her mother/Juliet's treatment of Jack
Accepting people for who they are--Sawyer/ Juilet
Misreading people's feelings--Kate misreads her mother/ Juilet misreads Jack

add one more theme: betrayal

Juliet knew exactly what she was doing and she certainly accomplished what she set otu to do....She intended to divide and conquer. She needed to keep things tense between Kate and Jack so they wouldn't compare notes. ...like any skillful manipulator, she wove both truth and fabrication together to paint the picture she wanted seen. ...Juliet needed time to work her magic on Kate (Kate's fb reveals a bonding with Cassidy, that she was somehow comparing with her experience with Juliet).

great catch laurie p.
and good insight.

i like the part about the parallel flashback
and her (kate-the-flake's) walk with blondie.

But as the scene played out ---it showed Jack loves Juilet

I'm going to quote him and say: "what am I, in junior high?"

He's known her for two weeks, for crying out loud! Most of that time she's spent it being his captor... sure, she's his ally now or that's how he sees it, but love? Jack? I'll go with no on that one.

It's a rehash of last year's Ana Lucia story and he's about as in love with her as he was with AL.

add one more theme: betrayal

Absolutely...but it was forgiveness of betrayal
kat/mom
Cassidy/saywer
jack/juilet

By the way--this was in direct contradiction to the Others---who dont forgive-- as Locke said.

There was also Good people..Bad people
And Sawyers son mentioned---then he holds Aaron

Left behind--Rapture. Sounds weird but the book is about Christians(good people) vanishing into thin air--as syaid said. Bad people left behind. Thats not a guess.People who have read the book and noticed the Lost title were waiting for reference to vanishing. ( BTW..it would wrong not to point out the rapture vanishes believers..not good people...Christians dont believe they are saved by being good..but by faith in Gods promise)

about somone elses comment about Juilet being a plant. that doesnt fit the story in anyway, shape, or form. There are plenty of cons on lost but 99% of them are resolved in the episode they're introduced. I think that will be even clearer next week. But honestly, its pretty clear right now.

Ben's Henry Gale con took several episodes to be revealed and since Juliet is just as good at conning as he is, I suspect hers will take at least as long.

As for Jack being in "love" with Juliet, I'd say that's a stretch. He may be beginning to trust her but love, no way, or at least not yet. It was only a few days ago that she ordered his friends to be killed if necessary.

add one more theme: betrayal

Ben's Henry Gale con took several episodes to be revealed and since Juliet is just as good at conning as he is, I suspect hers will take at least as long.

As for Jack being in "love" with Juliet, I'd say that's a stretch. He may be beginning to trust her but love, no way, or at least not yet. It was only a few days ago that she ordered his friends to be killed if necessary.

Hey

about the love thing..your right..it is maybe too strong a word. but I think we will see it is accurate in the end.

Benry was thought to be an Other right from the start. It was hardly a con. Many things take weeks and even years to be revealed. But if you truly think about the type of things I mentioned that people deny..they are obvious...yet they are denied anyway.

Ben, being an Other, fit the story--thats why we thought he was an Other and the Losties did too. Juilet is an Other who had her husband killed, was tricked to get to the island and forced to stay there, tried to kill Ben, killed pickett, was almost excecuted by them, was banished, and now is a lostie. A plant doesnt fit unless the others want to spy on how Sawyer cooks fish.:)

And Sawyers son mentioned---then he holds Aaron


Cassidy had a girl, Clementine.
Sawyer has a daughter.

Hey

about the love thing..your right..it is maybe too strong a word. but I think we will see it is accurate in the end.

I highly doubt that. If anything, it will turn out as a replay of what happened with his ex-wife. He will be betrayed by Juliet and feel like an idiot for it. Either that, or he will have realized she is a spy and will have seen it coming before he lets himself have any true deep feelings for her. I like Elizabeth Mitchell as an actress and I think she does a great job of being an unreadable character, but I just don't see her lasting till the end of the show.

Juliet already knew Jack would be on her side. She probably read Sayid as a potential enemy but one who would listen to reason. Kate was the person she needed to bring around to at least a neutral stance given her past treatment of Kate and her coming between Kate and Jack. I think her attempt to forge a bond with Kate makes sense, Juliet doesn't need/want an armed enemy walking behind her. She needed to defuse the situation with Kate even if she didn't become friends with her.

Hi!

In my humble opinion, I think Juliet allowed herself to be handcuffed to Kate, and do the whole jungle routine,...because Ben wants Juliet and Jack to 'get together'.

Think about it. If Jack remains with the Others, harboring unanswered feelings about Kate, Juliet and Jack could not become a couple. Jack would not be able to commit. Jack probably would continue to lament over Kate, think about 'what could have been', and presumably, how angry and hurt he was over Kate and Sawyer's trist in the cage.

Ben would not want Jack harboring unresolved feelings of love,...or whatever it was between him and Kate,....because, as we all know, Jack is a lose canon when he's in love, and especially when that love implodes, as did his marriage to Sarah, which Ben knows all about,....

Remember, Juliet told Kate, in the jungle, that they knew everything about Jack,...everything.

I believe Ben is evaluating certain Losties,....mainly Jack and Locke, for entry into his 'society'. Kate would not be deemed suitable,...she is not a 'good' person, she killed; but Jack and Locke, are 'good' people, as they fit that specific profile of the Other's group.

Locke is a good person because he never killed anybody,...neither did Jack. I think it's that simple,...good -v- bad,...live and let live -v- murder.

I do not believe Jack loves Juliet,...not yet. He is just now resolving the whole Kate thing, with her interference in his returning home on the submarine. If Kate had not returned to get Jack, Jack would be at home now,....Jack believes,...

And, Jack believes that Kate was playing him, in light of the 'trist' between Kate and Sawyer.

Do not be surprised to see Kate gravitating to Sawyer, now that Jack has hurt her feelings, and cut her to the quick. Instead of holding Kate, and forgiving her, when she found him on the floor, in Othersville, passed out,...and the whole Kate confession came out,....he asked about Juliet, I believe in order to hurt Kate, in return for her sleeping with Sawyer, and leading him on, etc.

The triangle/quadrangle is heating up, and the beach should get very interesting in this regard.

I believe that Ben is manipulating Juliet, and that he wants her to pretend to fall for Jack. He wants Juliet to remain cool, and controlling, which I doubt she will be able to do, as time goes on. Jack is the kind of man most women desire. He's handsome, highly intelligent, and modest,...with leadership qualities, and he's a 'good' person. Jack is what the Others want, and Ben will do anything to get him,...even using Juliet.

Just a guess, but I get the distinct impression that Ben and Juliet had a history,....a romantic one, in which Juliet discovered that Ben was only pretending his affections for her. That's why all the snarling between them that we see on screen.

Juliet is an Other, she knows the 'routine',...and she has agreed to secure Jack, for the Others. She has agreed to try to get Jack to fall for her. I predict that she will fail,....Jack's too smart not to see through the con,...as long as he sees the con, before he falls for Juliet.

I hope Jack still loves Kate,...she could be the only thing standing between Jack, and his future as an Other.

When she told Kate about the cage sex...She said that she was with Jack when he saw the video feed. She was NOT. Ben was with him. Why would she lie?Juliet never says anything about being there with Jack. She simply tells Kate that Jack saw her and Sawyer.

[QUOTE=Laurie P;1472224] She said that she was with Jack when he saw the video feed. She was NOT. Ben was with him. QUOTE]

Not to be all picky but she actually said that she was right there when Jack told Kate NOT to come back for him, not when he saw the video. But everything else you said was right on. I totally agree that Juliet is a master manipulator (learned from Ben no doubt) and that she knew exactly what would happen when they got back to the barracks. I notice she didn't respond to Sayid but let Jack defend her. That was another blow to Kate. Juliet is so working the good doc. I just hope Sayid continues to see through her and gets to the truth.

I think Jack is in on the "con" too, it didn't take much for them to convince Locke and they had more time with Jack and he was already feeling betrayed by Kate, etc.

I believe Ben is evaluating certain Losties,....mainly Jack and Locke, for entry into his 'society'. Kate would not be deemed suitable,...she is not a 'good' person, she killed; but Jack and Locke, are 'good' people, as they fit that specific profile of the Other's group.

Locke is a good person because he never killed anybody,...neither did Jack. I think it's that simple,...good -v- bad,...live and let live -v- murder.

But Locke has killed someone. He killed Patchy in cold blood and then bragged to Ben about doing it. I just don't understand the Others definition of "good".

Locke is usually one of my favorite characters but I could have smacked him upside the head for what he told Kate. He was so self-righteous. :mad: Come to think of it I could have smacked Kate too. She killed an abusive father to spare her mother. He killed Mikhail in cold blood. Kate should have thrown that back in his smug face but instead she just took it.

Ben:cool: will have to re-evaluate the Losties. His supply of people just dried up and he can no longer be as picky as he was. Maybe he can poach people from another group of Others. Maybe he can get the island to return their fertility.

I know as people think about the episode they will start to realize that it seems like Juilet leaving Jack made no sense. Why hook up with Kate when she just should have woke up Jack?
Juliet knows what she's doing. What's the point in trying to connect with people you've already connected with? Kate was the person Juliet had to win over. It was the smart thing to do.

about somone elses comment about Juilet being a plant. that doesnt fit the story in anyway, shape, or form. There are plenty of cons on lost but 99% of them are resolved in the episode they're introduced. I think that will be even clearer next week. But honestly, its pretty clear right now.

If 99% of the "cons" introduced on the show are resolved that same episode (I'd put it at closer to 60%; after all the Henry Gale con lasted forever, and one could argue that we still haven't moved past the original Others con) this is not one of those cases.

You're right that it doesn't make sense for Juliet to decide to "bond" with Kate instead of just going and getting Jack, who she at least has a working relationship with. But I think you're overestimating the importance of this in relation to everything else. Having noticed this anomaly in Juliet's behavior doesn't make everything "clear".

The fact is that everything Juliet did in this episode is anomalous. The handcuff thing just reeks. If she was gassed, she wouldn't have had the cuffs with her. So if she wasn't gassed, that suggests that the left The Others willingly, as she presumably took Kate out into the jungle, and they were already packing up to leave before Kate left. Don't you think Juliet would have said "Hey guys, where are you going?:" I'm certain that she knows a lot more about Smokey that she admits. I'm also thinking that she let Kate beat her up, probably just to seem less threatening after she beat the crap out of Kate earlier.

It's impossible to tell what's going on exactly, but I think most of us can agree that she's not being truthfull. I'm not certain if she is a plant or not, but if she isn't that means that she's doing all this lying on her own, just to further some personal agenda.

I also have a gut-feeling that Jack is in on it too. It doesn't make any sense why he was asleep for 24 hours longer than Juliet or Kate. Also, I'm thinking that Juliet sending Kate in to talk to Jack was actually a set up that she and Jack had worked out before hand. Jack was planning on saying "where's Juliet?" and they wanted Kate to see them exchange "heys" in the front yard. The obvious reason would be to just make Kate leave Jack alone, but like Sawyer says "who knows why the hell those people do anything".

Oh yeah I almost forgot:

The "snake in the mailbox" centers around Jack. Given the "cobra" reference last week, I think this actually adds some credence to my last theory.

John Burger - I really like your strict-Occam's razor philosophy. It's really a breath of fresh air in these forums, where crazy-complicated theories inevitably arise (not saying those are bad). But I really have got to say dude, even though sometimes you hit the nail on the head, sometimes you over-simplify things and as a result ignore some important elements to the show.

It's a rehash of last year's Ana Lucia story and he's about as in love with her as he was with AL.

I read somewhere that the love interest bit with AL was scraped when it became obvious there was no chemistry between the actors. I think there is chemistry between the actors here due in large part to the fact that Elizabeth Mitchell can act. You can see many emotions run across Juliet's face in a short period of time yet when it comes time for her to take action she becomes very calm and very detached. That is the part that makes me mistrust her. She might be very attracted to Jack and even come close to loving him but if he doesn't help her to advance her agenda he is toast.

In time Jack will come to appreciate Kate as a friend and understand that she is not responsible for Locke blowing up the sub. (Locke led Kate to the Flame station not the other way around.) But Kate feels so guilty about Sawyer she is apologizing for things she did not do. Loyal Kate will be there to help Jack pick up the pieces of his heart after Juliet rips it up with her bare unfeeling hands.