The scenes when Charlie dives down to the Substation made me cringe like only few visual effects in LOST so far. Soooo bad!

You clearly are able to see that they pasted a diving guy in the underwater background, noticible by his sped up movement and actual descent, especially while the station is in sight too. Plus the movement of the background layer and the diver's layer are horribly out of sync. They should have saved the money from the Special FX for the exploding tree and put it into post production for Charlie's dive.

Oh, and while I just watch the scene I see a logical error and a cutting error too. In the take right after jumping from the boat the stunt diver uses his arms to swim down and out of the frame. Doing that he flings the pack of stones that is supposed to pull him down like a weight belt around like the fake stones they are.
Just a second later he can be seen letting go of the "stones" and in the next scene he holds them in his hand like nothing happens.

This whole diving scenario is a complete mess.

I just needed to vent, because I think most of the rest of the episode was gold! :)

you're right for a second he does'nt have the stones in his hand he could of swapped but but yer bad mistake

I wouldn't call it the worst. It wasn't until I read the post and went back to check the scene that I really noticed anything, and even then I didn't think it was horrible. I did notice all the errors you pointed out, but the gravity of emotion in that scene just trumps everything else for me.

As a FX supervisor, who has worked on many episodics in the past, I know the budgetary and time constraints on the artists who actually do this type of work. I even know some of the guys who work on this show. And I can't figure out how some of these effects are soooooo, bad. Ok that is not entirely true, I can and it has a lot to do with the fact that the show is shot in Hawaii and the effects are done (for the most part) in LA. And under water is notoriously hard to do. And they are up against the end of the season which means that the amount of time for post production is very short. But wow that was, really really bad.

Well, I was bawling like a baby when he was swimming, so I really didn't notice anything.

So . . . Yeah. I might have to rewatch that sometime.

)This was bad, but I think the purple sky was worse. It was campy.

While on the subject, I don't think that the polar bear in Special looked all too good.

I'm willing to let it slide, because it looked good enough (comparatively for television) and we're actually getting a look at the infamous "underwater station." I personally expected that would be held off until next season. That's another budgetary factor they have consider. A lot more eyes are going to be focused on what happens inside that station next week, than the minute or so charlie spends swimming there.

Again, IMO, I'd rather see a couple more dud special effects if it means keeping a regular on the show or seeing guest stars more frequently (Rose/Bernard/Danielle).

Um.. many threads here may be highly theoretical (alternate-timeline people is one example) but it at least posits thinking and debate central to the storyline of the show itself. What exactly does a thread like this really contribute, other than complaining about something that has nothing to do with the story at all??? I'm sorry I just dont see the point of threads that complain about vfx (are you an expert? they have been time constrained you know, the finale wasn't even finished that long ago) or other technical "goofs." Sometimes I wonder if people are just trying to dig out reasons to tear apart the show, rather than tear into it with theories that make this message board worth visiting. Why don't we instead debate issues in the show that actually matter, such as mythology, DHARMA, the crash(es)...? I can't be the only one asking this question...

My guess is that this forum allows for threads about everything concerning the episodes. Including pointing out bad VFX, EmptyJar. I don't have to explain myself to you but just to make that clear: I love the show and I'm not one of the whiners that only point out the bad stuff to bring the show down. I'm quietly complaining about those people myself.

But those underwater scenes are so bad that they pull me out of the story and destroy the suspence for me. That is not a good thing. That's why I pointed it out.

drkollossus, interesting to read from people who can give an insight and know what they talk about! I just hope your last sentence was not meant sarcastic. ;)
I'm aware of budgetary and time constraints and the tricky logistics behind it all but still, this was something that was with all due respect a bad example of VFX.

I really liked the bear in "Special" and "Further Instructions" though, considering all the restraints and we all know how they struggled with the one appearance in the Pilot. :)

Eh, if this sorta thing bothers you, then I'm not sure why you're watching Lost. It really wasn't that bad at all - in fact you see worse in feature films. People always find something to complain about.

1. The show is not about special effects.
2. Scenes are filmed to show a sequence of events.
3. Special effects are used to enhance those events; however, most viewers are generally aware that what they are seeing is filmed, staged, not real - and that there will be many unrealistic things shown AND the reason for them to be shown is to move a story - a writing, fiction.. along in a somewhat linear way that appeals to people's imaginations.
4. Most viewers know that they are watching actors acting out a scene and that a lot goes into making that scene resemble what they are acting out - but sometimes ... well...
nevermind... we don't really have most viewers here.. we have viewers who disassemble scenes frame by frame and compare it to actual real life...

Yup, what LostPack said.

My guess is that this forum allows for threads about everything concerning the episodes. Including pointing out bad VFX, EmptyJar. I don't have to explain myself to you but just to make that clear: I love the show and I'm not one of the whiners that only point out the bad stuff to bring the show down. I'm quietly complaining about those people myself.

But those underwater scenes are so bad that they pull me out of the story and destroy the suspence for me. That is not a good thing. That's why I pointed it out.

drkollossus, interesting to read from people who can give an insight and know what they talk about! I just hope your last sentence was not meant sarcastic. ;)
I'm aware of budgetary and time constraints and the tricky logistics behind it all but still, this was something that was with all due respect a bad example of VFX.

I really liked the bear in "Special" and "Further Instructions" though, considering all the restraints and we all know how they struggled with the one appearance in the Pilot. :)

I just re-watched the scene and oddly enough I'm really not seeing that bad of an effects job. Now, granted I'm watching not watching in HD so maybe that would change things. Honestly, though, it looks all lot more "real" than some of the VFX I saw recently in Spider-man 3. And didn't Sam Raimi have like a gazillion dollars and a couple of years to tweak that stuff?

Again, I'm not really trying to dissect it on a minuscule level because I'm more interested in what's inside the Looking Glass and "if" Charlie is going to get there.

I honestly didn't notice any bad VFX when I was watching, I was too busy checking out the underwater hatch to notice any strange movement by charlie. On the other hand Locke's fall in TMFT did look noticeably strange from birds eye view.

I have to agree with most of what's been posted; the scene was just too... breathtaking for me to look for errors. But it can be interesting to discuss nonetheless.

Um.. many threads here may be highly theoretical (alternate-timeline people is one example) but it at least posits thinking and debate central to the storyline of the show itself. What exactly does a thread like this really contribute, other than complaining about something that has nothing to do with the story at all??? I'm sorry I just dont see the point of threads that complain about vfx (are you an expert? they have been time constrained you know, the finale wasn't even finished that long ago) or other technical "goofs." Sometimes I wonder if people are just trying to dig out reasons to tear apart the show, rather than tear into it with theories that make this message board worth visiting. Why don't we instead debate issues in the show that actually matter, such as mythology, DHARMA, the crash(es)...? I can't be the only one asking this question...

Last time I checked, people weren't forced to read every single thread on this board...
If you don't like the topic of a thread, please simply stay out of the thread and refrain from making posts like this one!

Actually I specifically remember while watching it that the scene looked surprisingly good and better than a lot of other VFX on TV.

If you want to see truly bad VFX ----------->24.

Actually I specifically remember while watching it that the scene looked surprisingly good and better than a lot of other VFX on TV.

I thought exactly the same thing, so I'm very surprised (to say the least) with a thread like this :confused:

I was too busy gawking at the wonderful underwater hatch then watching charlie or the stuntdiver swim, it really didn't seem that bad tbh. It's just one of those things that annoy you if you're an expert in that particular field.

Like for example if you were an expert in communication and transmission medias i'm sure you'd think that the satellite radio, and the previous radio in the first season looked stupid, and you could probably find flaws in how the messages are transmitted.

For example:

I know a lot about IT, so i was watching an episode of 8 Simple Rules and the dad encountered an error on his computer, and it was so obviously a scheduled macro on an excel document that ran, which came up with this cheap looking error userform pop up - after i thought it was absolutely pathetic.

You probably won't notice the errors unless you're an expert in the field or if you have considerable knowledge, i didn't see anything wrong with it personally - but then again what do i know?

Television isn't perfect, and all that jazz...yadda yadda yadda

VFX is a tool to create a virtual reality that supports or enhances the visuals of a movie or TV production.
If the VFX is subtle and blends into the scene it works as it's supposed to and it is good.
If it takes you out of the story because it stands out like a rusty nail from a Chippendale chair it's bad.

Some people are sensitive enough to notice rusty nails, others don't.
I'm very sensitive about those things. That's my gift.

VFX is a tool to create a virtual reality that supports or enhances the visuals of a movie or TV production.
If the VFX is subtle and blends into the scene it works as it's supposed to and it is good.
If it takes you out of the story because it stands out like a rusty nail from a Chippendale chair it's bad.

Some people are sensitive enough to notice rusty nails, others don't.
I'm very sensitive about those things. That's my gift.

I notice these things too, but the Charlie thing wasn't that noticable. Given the budget that a TV show has, I think it was quite good actually. Also, even if you notice one of these rusty nails, it doesn't necessarily ruin the scene, especially if the scene is as good as the one in question. Some people are very fastidious, but that's just sad when you're talking about a TV show.

Didn't notice, so it was good enough for me.

Personally I prefer one good effect over a bunch of supposedly mind-boggling Hollywood-action-movie style effects any day (the good effect being the underwater scene in this case).

If they were to put focus on the effects, the show we know as Lost would cease to be. I've got no complaints.

I didn't notice it at all, and I have watched it twice. For me it had a surreal quality, the tension of what is going to happen (but doesn't) was foremost in my mind. So they may not win any special effects awards, but it was fine on my tv. :-)

Well, ok then. since this thread seems to have caused a bit of backlash against those of us that do notice how poor the FX quality has been at times. I think we have all successfully lowered the bar... Next season, they can spend even less on effects. If you have no problem with this sequence, that is great for you, enjoy the story. But I think that Esrin has a very valid point. Some times the effect on this show are great, the plane breaking up at the beginning of the season, and sometimes they are not. On a show of this caliber and with such high production value, it is anomalous for something to be this bad. Please, you don't have to tell us you didn't notice, I assume that most people don't. As a Visual FX Supervisor, it is the sad reality of my job. If I do a good job no one will ever know... But when they are bad you notice. And this was noticeably bad, by at least the 3 out of the first 4 people that posted in this thread.
100%
If they were to put focus on the effects, the show we know as Lost would cease to be. I've got no complaints.So what your saying is that you don't mind bad effects work? The point of the show is not the effects, it's the writing. This show is totally about writing. But when they have an effects sequence, They Should put the focus on the Effects. Look, I know that I must be coming off as a jerk here, But you have to admit that there have been an awful lot of effects for a show about a bunch of people on a beach. Like Esrin said the FX are a story telling tool. They are a tool just as much as Script, Location, Casting, Costume, Hair and Make up, and Direction. If any one of those things are sub par the whole show suffers. Again I don't want to come off as a jerk here but there is a lot of folks here that seem to think that just because they didn't notice anything wrong that everything was just fine. You have no complaints, but i do, and I think my opinion is valid.

Again I don't want to come off as a jerk here but there is a lot of folks here that seem to think that just because they didn't notice anything wrong that everything was just fine. You have no complaints, but i do, and I think my opinion is valid.
Exactly, the majority of viewers enjoyed it the way it was. Why are you so destined to chage their minds, who made that your job? I thought you did special effects.

I think they did okay, I'm too wrapped up in the bigger picture of the show as most are to worry about whether they did a perfectly seamless job with special effects. It passed my test for story telling purposes.

Your not a jerk for pointing it out, and your opinion is valid but don't get mad because people who don't see it your way, don't see it your way.

Oh my crap i'm watching old CSI reruns and Juliet is on there!!

I liked it actually...

But I try not to pay attention to stuff like this, I just sit back and enjoy.

Exactly, the majority of viewers enjoyed it the way it was. Why are you so destined to chage their minds, who made that your job? I thought you did special effects.

I think they did okay, I'm too wrapped up in the bigger picture of the show as most are to worry about whether they did a perfectly seamless job with special effects. It passed my test for story telling purposes.

Your not a jerk for pointing it out, and your opinion is valid but don't get mad because people who don't see it your way, don't see it your way.

Oh my crap I'm watching old CSI reruns and Juliet is on there!!Thanks, I'm not mad becasue people don't agree with me, or see it my way. I'm upset becasue there were somany replys that dimissed the fact that this was even an issue worthy of discusion.

I just find it really weird that, here is a thread posted by someone who saw something of poor quality in a very high quality show, and pointed it out. A couple of people agreed with him, But Nearly 20 other people felt it was important to say they felt indifferent or that they don't care, or that it is totally acceptable.

I'm really glad that so many people had no problem with it. That is why this show is so popular. But if someone wants to discuss it shouldn't they be able to do so with out with out everyone else saying we are wrong. I don't want to change anyones mind. I just don't want them to try to change mine. Yes, my standards are high, and Yes I do work in Visual Effects and that is exactly why I posted on this thread. Why did everyone else? Ok, I'm Done now... see you all Next Season.

I don't think that the polar bear in Special looked all too good.


ha ha i thought i was the only one who thought that. thats funny:biggrin:

***Mod edited*** Of all times in a story to think about fx----that wasnt it----as the charlie and des scene was fantastic

AND..being fairly at good graphics myself, I would say your way off. Sorry.but you asked:)

It's got to be tough to be a VFX artist on Lost. I mean, here's a show where fans pull screenshots of 11 frames (that's less than half a second, there) to catch a shadowed glimpse of an invisible man. This level of scrutiny can't be something the VFX people are used to. And the way the viewing technology has advanced recently, what would have been plenty good enough just a couple of years ago is cheesy now. I remember, for example, when Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band first came out on CD, for instance, and you could hear people talking in the background. It just wasn't intended for that level of fidelity.

I agree that when the effects are sub-par, it can be distracting from the storyline, since the effects should be there to enhance the storytelling. But I wonder if we may not be approaching an impossible standard these days.

For me, the problem with the scene was that Charlie's playing hero and hitting Desmond with the paddle was cliche, like something out of a Lethal Weapon movie or something. :)

The only part that through me off at all was the under-the-moon-pool view right before Charlie surfaced. Apart from that I thought it was a very decent scene.

Wow, I really didn't even notice the bad FX.

It's got to be tough to be a VFX artist on Lost. I mean, here's a show where fans pull screenshots of 11 frames (that's less than half a second, there) to catch a shadowed glimpse of an invisible man. This level of scrutiny can't be something the VFX people are used to. (...)
Since the day Man was able to freeze a movie on VHS to have a closer look at an explosion or VFX the post production specialists had to work harder to convince viewers that that what they were shown was "real" and not just a guy with a red cape on strings or a 1:35 scale plastic miniature of Helm's Deep. I believe the people working on LOST know exactly what level of scrutiny they have to expect from the fans. But as it has been said before, there are also many kinds of restrictions they have to pay attention to which often keep them from doing their best possible work.

I agree that when the effects are sub-par, it can be distracting from the storyline, since the effects should be there to enhance the storytelling. But I wonder if we may not be approaching an impossible standard these days.
I have been troubled by said scenes immediatly the first time I saw the episode from a 350mb AVI file in below-TV quality on my 15" Laptop screen and I wasn't even consciously on the lookout for stuff like that. I didn't need a 70" Sony Bravia HD monster and frame by frame analysis to spot it. You see, even by applying possible standards people notice messy FX work, I'm certainly not the only one.

But I'm not here to bash on the show despite some people here thinking that. I thought it might be a good idea to point out a flaw and see if and how people react to it. I wanted to find out if I was the only one with that POV regarding those scenes. After all this forum or any fan community is no *** kissing board of sycophants, negative criticism is a part of dealing with someting.
Luckily drkollossus and others added valid points to the discussion and in addition to that we were able to open some viewers eyes concerning VFX work on the show and hopefully they will pay a little bit more attention to it in the future.

It can only improve if producers, creators and above all the pressing and parsimonious TV Networks realise that we are now able to detect the strings and miniatures even on a crappy AVI file. :)

Wow, I really didn't even notice the bad FX.

Me either, I thought it all looked pretty good. :shrug:
I guess I'm glad I'm not an expert.