View Full Version : The "definitive answer" on why 815 crashed?
05-24-2007, 09:04 AM
Carlton said something that frustrated me a bit, but I'm telling myself that it is okay (*lol*) because I'm not sure that by "definitive answer", it still doesn't leave room for more to be revealed. What I'm talking about is when he said that Desmond's failure to press the button within 108 minutes the day he chased after Kelvin, which resulted in the system failure that in turn resulted in unleashing the magnetic anomaly is the "definitive answer" as to why Oceanic 815 crashed. Don't get me wrong, I can totally buy that as the cause of the crash itself. But I even though that could well be true, imho, there has to be more to it. As was pointed out later in this episode, there are a lot of relationships between the passengers of Flight 815, such as that Clarie and Jack are half brother and sister. Also, imho, there was a lot of off-island manipulation of our LOSTaways, in many cases for years, all leading up to getting them onto that fateful flight. In other words, as my fave Locke said long ago, "We were all brought here for a reason."
Now, that doesn't preclude that Desmond accidentally caused the plane crash by failing to press the button in time on that date. But I don't think it was as "accidental" as Desmond believes. Because then it would have meant that a totally random series of events led up to the crash, whereas I believe that, just as our LOSTaways were manipulated to one degree or another off-island to get them onto that plane, Desmond was manipulated to miss pressing the button. Remember that Kelvin had a tear in his supposedly protective suit and I remember thinking at the time that it seemed intentional the way he made it obvious and gave Desmond a chance to get a good, long look at it. Is it just me, or do you guys think it is plausible that Kelvin led/lured Desmond purposefully away from the hatch so that he would miss pressing the button?
I guess what is bugging me about Carlton's comment in "The Answers" regarding the system failure being the definitive answer about why the plane crashed, is that, on the surface, it would seem to clash with Locke's view that "we were all brought here for a reason". So I guess what I'm saying is, okay, the system failure was the immediate cause of the crash, but I think that other things were intentionally done to lead up to that system failure, then. Because I do believe from everything we've seen thus far that they were all brought to the island for a reason. Maybe it was some good, redemptive reason and it was the power of the island itself that brought them there, which could be what Locke meant. Or maybe it was something ominous and Otherly and planned for years by the off-island Others. Or maybe there is some of both mixed in. But whatever the reasons they were brought there, I don't believe it was as random as it seems that it happened to be at that exact time that Desmond trailed off after Kelvin and "stayed too long at the fair", so to speak.
What do you guys think?
05-25-2007, 03:58 AM
The magnetic anomaly caused the plane to crash. It wasn't the reason they were all brought there, though. That was fate. See, science and faith are both at play here.
05-25-2007, 01:01 PM
It's just that I think there was some human intervention involved in getting them all onto that plane, that particular flight, specifically to get them to the island. So the general concept of "fate", although I think that might have been at play, too, doesn't do it for me because there are just too many interconnections between the passengers of Flight 815. And too much went into each of them getting on the plane that day. So I don't think it was random that Desmond happened to not input the numbers at that exact time. If the system failure is indeed what crashed the plane (and Carlton said it was in "The Answers", hence this post *lol*), then I think Kelvin purposely led Desmond after him (getting him curious by giving Des a clear view of the rip in his protective suit) so that he'd miss inputing the numbers just at the time the plane would be overhead. The timing of the whole thing would have to be just so, therefore I'll grant that it seems a tad far-fetched. So I can see why one would think, well, if the chance happening of Des not inputing the numbers is the definitive cause of the crash, it must simply have been "fate" that they were all on that flight, versus a result of human intervention. But I still have to believe it was the latter. Again, there are too many coincidences and intersections in the pre-flight lives of the LOSTaways. It couldn't all just be the LOST creators' fascination with the concept of "six degrees of separation", which granted is there, too. They have said they like to explore that in LOST. But there is too much interconnection for it all to be that. The LOSTaways have far less than six degrees of separation between them in their pre-island lives.
No, something/one/entity is helping fate along. And, if so, then they must have planned for Des to go missing from the hatch at the critical time.
05-26-2007, 12:31 PM
The pilot said:
"Six hours in, our radio went out. No-one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji. By the time we hit turbulence, we... we were a thousand miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place."
They were way off course. The radio went out. They hit turbulence (I assume this is how he interpreted the system failure caused by Desmond) and crashed on the island.
Why were they off course? Why were they in the vicinity of the island?
There may have been powers at work that we haven't seen any clues about at this point. The "course correctors" may have been influencing things as well, to make sure the plane was in the right place at the right time.
How and why the plane broke up and crashed are only the tiny end of the mystery regarding the crash of Flight 815.
05-26-2007, 06:57 PM
Murdock and Lostefan: I agree with you both. The castaways were brought together for a reason and their plane was crashed for a reason. Whether there was scientific intervention; fateful intervention; supernatural intervention is a question that might not be solved till the end of the series. The pieces fit too neatly, and the coincidences have been overwhelmingly frequent. One thing, since the writers are playing with flashbacks, that plays into this: do you think that the episodes we've been watching, centering on one character, could be flashbacks too? In other words, all of the surviving characters are off the island, and each episode is a recounting to some kind of authority as to who he or she is, his or her past, and what happened from his or her perspect, on the island. I rather like this idea: I remember at the end of Lord of the Flies, when the plane rescues the boys, we were left wondering just how much, and from what angle, each boy would present his account of the island.
05-27-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this but....
Has anyone discussed how Walt fits into all of this? The only person that had "special powers" off the island was him. In season 1's "Special" episode, we see that when he wants Bryan's attention as he tries to show him a bird a bird just happens to crash into the window of the house and die. A coincidence, surely, since a billion things would affect the way the bird was flying and the fact that it hit the window at that particular moment, but a telling one at that. Besides, as we hear from Bryan later on that episode, things "happen around [Walt]". When Bryan says this, he sounds frightened.
The reason I mention this is to make this point: As murdock mentioned, the pilot of the plane says that they were very off course before actually crashing. The plane just happened to act up and lead to be on top of the island. The magnetic disturbance actually makes the plane crash. At first glance disparate things that lead to the end result of a plane crashing on the middle of an island. Much like the bird flying into the window.
So what actually caused all of that? I think it was Walt. He "makes things happen"; he didn't want to go back home with his father biological father. And much like the bird incident, in which he doesn't necessarily intend to make it crash and die, it does.
And why do I focus on Walt, as opposed to Ben, or even Locke? Because they are just pawns here. That is obvious with Ben, and now there is some evidence that it is the case with Locke. Walt comes back to Locke to tell him that his work is not finished; to make him get up and to actually do something.
Ultimately, I don't think this is the solution to the puzzle. But working within the larger schemes that have already been set in motion I think its a good theory. I would love to discuss it.
06-02-2007, 02:48 PM
I have never felt confortable with the answer they give of the plane crash..
and of course the body language and actions of walts adopted father.
he never even turned over walt to michael in person.. he let michael show up alone and take him.. no good byes or hugs or i love you... too creepy for me..
ms clue's questions were odd too...
06-03-2007, 08:26 PM
I agree totally. I've been making that exact same point for some time now - that the System Failure was the cause of the crash doesn't mean that those events weren't orchestrated. I've got a very long thread on it, if you're interested : "Was the crash planned?" (link's in my sig thing).
The main points I see are :
1) The whole "goodbye" thing, which was what sparked Desmond's curiosity in the first place.
2) Inman said he didn't think Des would have the stones to follow him, which might imply someone had suggested the plan and Inman wasn't sure it would work.
3) From Des's comment about the Swan computer's communication, I think Inman was communicating in secret. Otherwise, how would he know? (Inman WAS communicating), and Why wasn't he sure? (and he did it in secret).
4) Assuming Des did cause the crash, it's one hell of a coincidence that the plane came down right AFTER Des got back in the hatch, otherwise he'd have seen it.
06-07-2007, 03:59 PM
As was pointed out later in this episode, there are a lot of relationships between the passengers of Flight 815, such as that Clarie and Jack are half brother and sister. Also, imho, there was a lot of off-island manipulation of our LOSTaways, in many cases for years, all leading up to getting them onto that fateful flight. In other words, as my fave Locke said long ago, "We were all brought here for a reason."
So are you saying that powers we haven't seen yet,or maybe we have, manipulated these specific people to board that specific plane, on that specific flight, on that specific day? At the same time manipulated Desmond all those years just so he can basically wash ashore on the island just to miss punching in the code at that specific time? Thats a lot of balls to be juggling at once. Not to mention the things that can't be controlled. Lockefan, don't get me wrong I believe what Locke said and I'm not doubting your theory, but how could all of that have happened?
Even if this powerful entity wanted these specific people, how do you crash a jetliner and only have the people you want walk away with just a few bumps and bruises, while the crash actually killed other people? This is the question that bakes my noodle.
I do believe Oceanic was somehow involved. How else does a modern day jetliner go off course a thousand miles to conveniently be over the island at the right time? I don't know how just a gut feeling. On a side note, I think in season two we see the room where Claire was kept during her abduction and over the crib is a mobile made up of Oceanic planes. Weird. My guess was this was just an Easter Egg.
06-19-2007, 02:23 AM
OK. Here's what I got so far that shows something more than coincidence playing into things here. That maybe someone planned all these people to get on that flight or to the island.
Someone could have planned/forced these people to be on the flight:
1. Sun and Jin. - Mr. Paik sent that creepy white guy who spoke Korean to make sure they both got on the flight.
2. Claire - Malkin, the psychic, gave Claire tickets for the flight.
3. Sawyer - he was deported and given tickets for his flight.
4. Michael and Walt - they were given tickets by Brian.
5. Kate - she was forced to fly back to America with the Marshal.
6. Sayid - he was given tickets on that flight the previous day. But they may have expected/predicted he would change to the following day to make sure his friend got a proper burial.
Here are the maybes:
Not confirmed to be influenced by others into taking that specific flight, but they have special circumstances that might have indicated they would take that flight.
1. Jack - almost couldn't board the plane with his father's body, but the death of his father and the schedule of the funeral back home motivated him to get home on that flight.
2. Hurley - his mother's birthday was the next day and he had to take that flight to make it home on time.
3. Eko - Malkin may have influenced his investigation in order for him to take that flight, just as he influenced Claire.
4. Locke - he may have been set up to take that flight back home. He himself definitely wasn't planning on going home that early until he was refused for the walkabout tour.
Not accounted for:
Charlie, Boone and Shannon, Anna Lucia, Libby (we don't even know why she was in Australia), Rose and Bernard, etc.
Coincidence? They've been playng the whole "connections" thing since the beginning. And this is a fairly large chunk of the main cast of losties.
06-19-2007, 10:52 AM
Rather than their presence aboard 815 being contrived, I see that as an example of the coincidences (read: fate) in LOST.