DocLover - when people say "control freak", to me, it's just another way of saying that Jack takes on too much responsibility for the actions and fates of others. It's part and parcel of the blaming himself thing. You're right, he doesn't try to control every little thing - but when it comes to the safety of the group, Jack takes on the responsibility. These are the times when Jack is most angry or frightened - when the safety of the group or an individual is endangered by someone's actions.

Dany,

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. Now, I understand much better what's being said. And I do agree with you that he does blame himeslf and take on too much when it comes to the safety of the group. This makes much more sense to me than just calling him a 'control freak', which I now understand. And I said that Jack is the only one who has stepped up since the very beginning and continued to do so, instead of going off after what he was interested in and forgetting the others. That's what I meant by that.

Again, thanks Dany.

Doc

Hello fellow FoxHussies!

Okay, about Jack being a control freak, I can honestly see that about him, but what he's trying to control is not people, but the situation that he finds himself in. Okay, Jack never wanted the power, he never wanted to be in charge, but since he's the doctor and since he is of leadership quality, Jack was the one that everyone went to for permission (in a sense), advice, guidance, etc. Jack is not trying to control anyone, but he's trying to control the situation for them all so that they can be safe. No one hung on Jack's every word and obeyed him without questioning him. Jack and Sayid have had their differences (going to live in the caves, the 'Henry Gale' situation, Juliet, Naomi's phone, etc), Jack and Sawyer have stood toe-to-toe (the guns, the medicine, etc.) and Jack and Locke have always been at odds with one another (the hatch, the button, Locke blowing up the sub, etc.) Jack may confront you about something that he thinks is the wrong move to make, but in that sense, he's not controlling, but he is trying to control the uncontrollable, which is so Jack.

As a matter of opinion, I think that Jack is even less controlling resulting in his stay with the Others. When he was with them, Jack wasn't in control of a damn thing. He was watched every hour on the hour, he wasn't the one making decisions, he wasn't the one telling everyone what to do, he wasn't trying to 'fix' anything (except for Ben, but that was different, he really didn't want to do that). All he had to do was take care of Ben and wait until it was time to go home. In that time, Jack relinquished any control that he had over anything. Now once he got back on the beach, everyone looked at him for answers to their questions, explanations in a sense as to why he wasn't there, why he wasn't back with Kate and Sawyer. I mean, all the survivors look at him as if he's the only one who can do everything about anything, not always, but usually. Once Jack got back, everyone started to distrust him because he wasn't upfront with certain information, and that he was including anyone in anything, and that he trusted Juliet. Well, as we saw, Jack enlisted the help of Rousseau in order to control the situation, not any one person or set of people. Jack had to get back to being in charge because that's what everyone looks for him to do. Being the leader and having a controlling nature go hand in hand. If you're going to lead, you have to be a bit controlling so that people know you mean business and that's what Jack does.

Erica -

I wanted to comment on this part of your post. I have always wondered how come Locke never told Jack that he was in a wheelchair before the crash. I mean he so badly wanted Jack to see that the island was special, and knowing that might have done something to change his mind. Why do you think that is? I mean, why do you think Locke kept that from just about everyone, especially Jack, with whom he's had this neverending 'science v. faith' debate with??

DL

Doc, I have thought a LOT about why Locke has never told a single soul about his disability previous to the crash. Rose knows about it, because she saw him in the airport yes, but she herself has been healed by the island. She too feels that the island is special, the same way that Locke does (even though Locke is more eccentric in his approach). It's very interesting, because in "Walkabout" [1x04] we see that Locke is completely hindered by the confines of that chair and now that he can walk again, now that he can do anything that he wants ("Don't tell me what I can't do"), why wouldn't he shout it from the rooftops that the island has fixed him, saved him, gave him life again. We've seen on many ocassions (even in the S3 Finale) that Locke has lost the ability to use his legs. In "Dues Ex Machina" [1x19], we see that Locke has once again flumbed because his legs have given out and he asks the island, questions the island.

Maybe Locke isn't supposed to tell anyone anything about his miracle. Maybe he's supposed to keep it to himself. But I believe that if he sat Jack down and told him about the fact that he was pushed out of an eight-story window that crushed his spinal column, and that he lived confined to a wheelchair for four years prior to the crash and when he woke up in the beach, he could walk again, Jack wouldn't have a real explanation for it (maybe an act of God...). Now, I can picture Jack's facial response to that. Jack being a established spinal surgeon who has seen many cases of paralysis and for Locke to tell Jack that he lived as a paralyptic up until the crash, would be the evidence of a miracle and Jack himself was a BIG part of a miracle (giving Sarah the ability to walk when there was no hope for her to ever regain that ability). So if Jack and Locke have another science vs. faith discussion, then maybe this time they can find a common-ground, but both men have to be open to it and I don't think either is there....yet.



Erica

Sorry, but I still don't see how you get 'control freak' out of what Jack does. I just don't see that at all in him. I think he has some issues with blaming himself for everything that goes wrong, but I don't see him wanting to be in control of everything going on. I see him as doing what he feels is for the best of all of them.

Being a control freak has less to do with actual exerting or achieving control than seeking control. Jack's overwhelming need to protect and keep safe all those around him -- manifests itself in a lot of different ways: self-sacrifice, concern, attention to the vulnerable, etc. It also manifests itself in that he seeks to impose order on chaos in ways that are doomed to fail, namely in trying to control people and assuming responsibility for external circumstances and then internalizing his failure to control them as some kind of reflection of personal inadequancy.

Kate bears the brunt of his need to control people most often, but he's not picky. He's big on telling people what they are and are not allowed to do, has done his share of planning for the group without consultation and just assuming that what he says goes, and has done his share of making people pay (usually emotionally, and again, almost always Kate) when they don't follow orders. These are the actions of a classic control freak -- desiring control over external forces, whether they are actually controllable or not. It's a kind of unreasoning knee-jerk reaction on Jack's part, and it is one of his defining characteristics.

It's interesting to compare him to Sayid, who is also an alpha male type, similarly competent anc ourageous, and community minded, but not in any way controlling. Would Sayid be as effective a leader as Jack? No, because sometimes Jack's crazier qualities are the very things that enable him to be heroic and keep everyone alive. Jack often tries to take control first, then thinks on the fly. Sayid thinks a lot first, then observes, then thinks some more, then plans, then acts. I think it'd be safe to say that Jack's way has resulted in more saved lives than Sayid's. He thinks too much and is a little too detached to feel the crazy urgency inspires Jack to some of his more heroic deeds.

At the end of the season, we see Jack starting to change, and become much more flexible in his attitudes towards himself and his relationship to his responsibilities. I thought these changes were subtle and very realistic, well written and portrayed.

TSTID

You say control freak like it's a bad thing... :hypocrit: I call myself a control freak and I'm proud of it! :biggrin:

Oh, hell yeah! Maja, we should form a club. :biggrin: I've been performing high-stress jobs since I was 19 and it's always helped so...

Btw, I can't agree with your analysis that Jack is the only one who cares for things and people that doesn't concern him. For example, I don't see where Boone only cared for himself? But this here is maybe not the right place to discuss this, so I won't go into detail.

Well, I don't know if you've missed all the Boone love we've been showering in here lately... He was a good kid and he tried. He's not the only one, I think they've all risen to the ocassion, whether grudgingly or not (I mean, hello... CHARLIE!) they just don't do it often enough, which from my experience with any given group that's supposed to work together... well... it's rather realistic.

TSTID, I don't think Jack has ever cared much about what people do, let alone allowing them to do it or not, but there's a line where what they want to do messes with everyone's safety or even their own (Charlie offering to sacrifice himself by swimming to the underwater hatch) and that's where he can't accept the things he can't control. He's usually the one who's left to pick up the messes so I can't say I blame him too much.

Sometimes, it makes the difference between life and death (running after Charlie in the jungle, blowing up Smokie and not letting Locke get sucked into that hole, etc), other times it's just annoying and done out of frustration (not letting Kate go on the trek... not that he wasn't right about the possible consequences). And other times it's just the smart thing to do from just knowing who he's dealing with (knowing Kate would run with dynamite and blow them all up and switching the backpacks.)

Being a control freak has less to do with actual exerting or achieving control than seeking control. Jack's overwhelming need to protect and keep safe all those around him -- manifests itself in a lot of different ways: self-sacrifice, concern, attention to the vulnerable, etc. It also manifests itself in that he seeks to impose order on chaos in ways that are doomed to fail, namely in trying to control people and assuming responsibility for external circumstances and then internalizing his failure to control them as some kind of reflection of personal inadequancy.

Kate bears the brunt of his need to control people most often, but he's not picky. He's big on telling people what they are and are not allowed to do, has done his share of planning for the group without consultation and just assuming that what he says goes, and has done his share of making people pay (usually emotionally, and again, almost always Kate) when they don't follow orders. These are the actions of a classic control freak -- desiring control over external forces, whether they are actually controllable or not. It's a kind of unreasoning knee-jerk reaction on Jack's part, and it is one of his defining characteristics.

It's interesting to compare him to Sayid, who is also an alpha male type, similarly competent anc ourageous, and community minded, but not in any way controlling. Would Sayid be as effective a leader as Jack? No, because sometimes Jack's crazier qualities are the very things that enable him to be heroic and keep everyone alive. Jack often tries to take control first, then thinks on the fly. Sayid thinks a lot first, then observes, then thinks some more, then plans, then acts. I think it'd be safe to say that Jack's way has resulted in more saved lives than Sayid's. He thinks too much and is a little too detached to feel the crazy urgency inspires Jack to some of his more heroic deeds.

At the end of the season, we see Jack starting to change, and become much more flexible in his attitudes towards himself and his relationship to his responsibilities. I thought these changes were subtle and very realistic, well written and portrayed.

TSTID

TSID - I really do appreciate this explanation of Jack. And while I do understand everything you have said, I just don't think that what Jack has done in this respect should be considered such a bad thing. He's trying to protect everyone there. Jack's done his share of planning without consulting the group because none of them EVER talk to one another about anything of importancen (except Kate, she has usually been the one to tell Jack whatever he needed to know). They are all about keeping things from each other. So Jack deciding to make a plan on certain occasions was the smart thing to do, imo. I guess I'm blinded by his greatness:biggrin:

Thank you though!!

Doc

TSID - I really do appreciate this explanation of Jack. And while I do understand everything you have said, I just don't think that what Jack has done in this respect should be considered such a bad thing. He's trying to protect everyone there. Jack's done his share of planning without consulting the group because none of them EVER talk to one another about anything of importancen (except Kate, she has usually been the one to tell Jack whatever he needed to know). They are all about keeping things from each other. So Jack deciding to make a plan on certain occasions was the smart thing to do, imo.

I think most of the more recent major decisions have been a joint effort with Sayid or simply following Sayid's plan. But. No, it probably hasn't always been the ideal decision, just making the best of a continuously horrible situation. He's a surgeon. Making life and death decisions in a split second is second nature and everyone expects that out of him. When was the last time something major happened that gave the losties ample opportunity to sit down, have a tribal council and ask Sullivan, Neil Frogurt, Claire and Aaron, etc. what they think the best course of action should be? When Juliet switched sides? The others were coming in what, 48 hours? Given that Sayid and Desmond and co. were keeping Naomi in their tent and acting all cloack and dagger-y, no, I can't say I would have gone straight to them, spend the night trying to convince them I'm not evil, out to kill Naomi and steal Sun's baby and then ask what to do. I would have gone straight to Danielle and figure out what to do when I knew I had the boom boom sticks to blow their :censored: up.

Craphole Island is not a democracy. Even democracies circumvent the rule of the people for the people in situations of crisis and the losties have been in one major snafu crisis since the day they crashed, 24/7.

Oh, hell yeah! Maja, we should form a club. :biggrin: I've been performing high-stress jobs since I was 19 and it's always helped so...


YAY! Let's form a club... that would be so German... :24:

(There's a saying in Germany that whenever 3 Germans meet, they form a club. It's got to be 3 ppl at last, because you need a president, a vice-president and a cashier. :71: )


Well, I don't know if you've missed all the Boone love we've been showering in here lately... He was a good kid and he tried. He's not the only one, I think they've all risen to the ocassion, whether grudgingly or not (I mean, hello... CHARLIE!) they just don't do it often enough, which from my experience with any given group that's supposed to work together... well... it's rather realistic.


I noticed his name mentioned a couple of times on the past few pages but I admit, I always skipped over the posts then because I was afraid you might say something not so nice about him which would upset me, and I didn't want to be tempted to write a lengthy defending post which would not be appropriate and generally off topic here.

And I know ppl get annoyed with my boonatic attitude and my refusal to "let go". :blushing:

TSTID, I don't think Jack has ever cared much about what people do, let alone allowing them to do it or not,

I think that if it's a topic he's concerned about, or a particular mission or project he's consumed with, he does care a great deal. Does he care about Claire and Charlie's ups and downs, or Bernard's SOS sign, or Sun and Jin's problems, absolutely not. But when Jack cares about something, he tends to obsess about it, and on those subjects he's absolutely a controlling type. It's all fear-based: fear of failing, fear of falling short of his own expectations even when he succeeds (this is a Jack specialty), fear of the consequences of failure, real or imagined. It's typical of someone with his personality type and it's very well done on the show.

TSID - I really do appreciate this explanation of Jack. And while I do understand everything you have said, I just don't think that what Jack has done in this respect should be considered such a bad thing.

Sometimes it's a bad thing, but more often than not, on the island it's been a very good thing. As I said, kick *** and take names later and to hell with people's feelings on the topic attitude has pretty much saved everyone's bacon.

I guess I'm blinded by his greatness:biggrin:

I am too...because I find his flaws, even his biggest ones, and dark corners of his personality intrinsic to his awesomeness. Without them, he'd just be some guy running around saving everyone. His flaws and quirks are what make his greatness shine.

Yay! A hardcore (and in a non-pornographic sense!) Jack discussion! Not that there's anything wrong with the other kind of discussion either.

And I know ppl get annoyed with my boonatic attitude and my refusal to "let go". :blushing:

Boone's death is one of the two major deaths on the show that I regret. Eko's is the other. I think both deaths were wastes of good characters.

TSTID

I noticed his name mentioned a couple of times on the past few pages but I admit, I always skipped over the posts then because I was afraid you might say something not so nice about him which would upset me, and I didn't want to be tempted to write a lengthy defending post which would not be appropriate and generally off topic here.

And I know ppl get annoyed with my boonatic attitude and my refusal to "let go". :blushing:Awww....Boone SO deserves to live on! There was lots of Boone appreciation going on, here and in other threads during the Rewind where it was sort of a "what would have happened if Boone hadn't dropped the flashlight at just the right time and clanked on the hatch" thing. We embrace his well-meaning, gorgeous ineptness. :biggrin: (We also take time out to embrace Jack's gorgeous well-meaning ineptness too.) The only thing foxhussies got annoyed with is when he tried to ream out Jack for saving his life when he was drowning.

Found a new Foxy article on LF. Don't think it's spoilery. Let me know if it is.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22120606-5006022,00.html

And uh....there's a typo in there. :lol:

Found a new Foxy article on LF. Don't think it's spoilery. Let me know if it is.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22120606-5006022,00.html

And uh....there's a typo in there. :lol:

Thanks, peach! What is it with the Australian press barrage this week? The reporter is a closet foxhussy, using phrases like "slamming into a wall of banality". And they used our old countdown picture!

I think MF sounds tired in this interview. Maybe he's just tired of answering questions about LOST and would rather talk about his new movies.

If wishes were horses... :whistling

I think that if it's a topic he's concerned about, or a particular mission or project he's consumed with, he does care a great deal. Does he care about Claire and Charlie's ups and downs, or Bernard's SOS sign, or Sun and Jin's problems, absolutely not. But when Jack cares about something, he tends to obsess about it, and on those subjects he's absolutely a controlling type.

I think that's basically what I (clumsily) said, since the group's safety/rescue/his friends' lives are things he tends to care about a great deal. :smile: I don't agree that he's big on telling people what to do though because THAT kind of personality type and the kind of disorder that lands you in the annals of the DSM does NOT differentiate between pulling Locke from Smokie's black hole of doom and telling Claire how to handle Charlie. It's all or nothing.

Not only that, but he didn't want to tell people what to do, told Charlie and Hurley to **** off (not in so many words) because he's not deciding anything. Once he commits to it though and once he becomes responsible for it, you're right, his obsessive personality kicks in and he doesn't hold back. I completely understand where he's coming from when he said "For 90 days people have been asking me to make decisions. There. I just made one."


It's all fear-based: fear of failing, fear of falling short of his own expectations even when he succeeds (this is a Jack specialty), fear of the consequences of failure, real or imagined. It's typical of someone with his personality type and it's very well done on the show.


Yes, yes it is. *cough*His personality type is familiar*cough*. I'm sort of sick of seeing words like crazy and obsessive equated (on the internet??? Pot/Kettle much? :lol1:) and the like thrown out there into a mishmash as horrible anathemas because while they screw with your head (and make for compelling drama), mental disorders they are not and they don't make you Norman Bates material. :crazy:

Er... right... rambling again... I was actually going to ask where the counting to 5 comes into this. Because he seems to have learned to conquer that fear in a crisis and cope with it much better than on a daily basis.

Yay! A hardcore (and in a non-pornographic sense!) Jack discussion!

Don't say things like that around me if you want to keep it that way. Don't you know how easily sidetracked Gutterland is? :biggrin:

The only thing foxhussies got annoyed with is when he tried to ream out Jack for saving his life when he was drowning.

Nah, I don't fault him for that at all. He's traumatized like all of them, he wants to prove himself and he's desperately looking for his role in the group. It makes sense and it comes from someone who's genuinely caring and decent.

Thanks, peach! What is it with the Australian press barrage this week? The reporter is a closet foxhussy, using phrases like "slamming into a wall of banality". And they used our old countdown picture!

Oh, she's not the only one. Julie from the Evi prank on the radio was all giggly talking about how "yeh, yeh... he's very sexxay and manlay and all dat". :biggrin: I think the finale airs in Australia this week so this is all part of the promo campaign.

I think MF sounds tired in this interview. Maybe he's just tired of answering questions about LOST and would rather talk about his new movies.

No doubt he can be a prickly interview (and not just because of the stubble) -- there's ample evidence of that. However, I think the interviewer is cheating because the prickly quotes are recycled from an earlier, totally unrelated interview. I hate it when they do that. I also am rather red-faced to acknowledge that I have committed his interviews to memory and that I recognize said quotes as recycled. :redface: :biggrin:

Not.

Anyway, given that he goes on to nerdily gush "Lost" and TPTB, I think your take is a bit off-base.

TSTID

I think ALL the actors are tired of trying to answer questions about LOST. All they can say is the same old thing because even if they do more about the ending, as Matt has often said he does, they can't really say anything that would give something away.

And reporters ask the same old questions over and over. That's why they all give the same answers over and over. I can see that someone like MF who has done a film he is really proud of would want to talk about that instead of having skirt around non-answers on LOST for the ten zillionith time. I mean, how many ways can you say, "I can't tell you anything"? :)

I would have liked to hear about the movies, actually, since he is involved in filming now. And perhaps what it is like to be living in Berlin. I could have asked much more interesting questions...as could any of you. (Now, now...not THOSE kind of questions!!!)

Yes, yes it is. *cough*His personality type is familiar*cough*. I'm sort of sick of seeing words like crazy and obsessive equated (on the internet??? Pot/Kettle much? :lol1:) and the like thrown out there into a mishmash as horrible anathemas because while they screw with your head (and make for compelling drama), mental disorders they are not and they don't make you Norman Bates material. :crazy:

As one who once tested out 14 out of 15 warnings signs of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, I can vouch for this. I've learned to mitigate the issues I can mitigate, make peace with the ones I have to live with, and exploit the ones that can be useful.

A fondness for taxidermy and attacking people in the shower were not among my symptoms, though.

TSTID

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JINXY AND TIFF! (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/Do%20No%20Harm/1x20_DoNoHarm_010.jpg)

You get a special song played on the piano by the world's most beautiful pair of surgeon hands and all our love and appreciation! :kisss:

Jinxy, you're easy to shop for, so I'm stealing this from flyer (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/hussies/BirthdayBoy2007.jpg) (feel free to place the bow wherever you want ;))

A fondness for taxidermy and attacking people in the shower were not among my symptoms, though.

You've just described a fellow hussy (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/hussies/Locke.jpg), you know that, right?

Happy Birthday to those guys whose birthday it is :biggrin: :bdaygrin:

Hope you have a fabulous day:bdaybigr:

I would be more creative but I'm too tired and too fat (yea...its still in there:undecide: ).

I'm still coming in here in the vain hope that either seeing or reading about the Fox or the bad good doctor might spur some sort of physical emotion and when usually you could count on it....today.....nothing. Oh well - I need to do some more research - what a shame:tongue1:

Awww....Boone SO deserves to live on! There was lots of Boone appreciation going on, here and in other threads during the Rewind where it was sort of a "what would have happened if Boone hadn't dropped the flashlight at just the right time and clanked on the hatch" thing. We embrace his well-meaning, gorgeous ineptness. :biggrin: (We also take time out to embrace Jack's gorgeous well-meaning ineptness too.) The only thing foxhussies got annoyed with is when he tried to ream out Jack for saving his life when he was drowning.


Nah, I don't fault him for that at all. He's traumatized like all of them, he wants to prove himself and he's desperately looking for his role in the group. It makes sense and it comes from someone who's genuinely caring and decent.

Claudia basically said what I wanted to answer you, mom. :biggrin: Boone wanted Jack to rescue Joanna first and he probably blamed himself for her death. He never thought much of himself and always put others first and rather put himself in danger then watch others suffer.

Jack's a little bit like that too, isn't he? ;)

Btw, have you seen this list: http://www.afterelton.com/people/2007/7/hot100

Claudia basically said what I wanted to answer you, mom. :biggrin: Boone wanted Jack to rescue Joanna first and he probably blamed himself for her death. He never thought much of himself and always put others first and rather put himself in danger then watch others suffer.

Jack's a little bit like that too, isn't he? ;)

Btw, have you seen this list: http://www.afterelton.com/people/2007/7/hot100


Wow Maj - Thanks for bringing that to our attention! Lots of lovely LOST boys on there, as well they should be! Great pictures of all of them too. And that is a really good picture of Ian!:biggrin:

Doc

Jack feels responsible for everybody and blames himself for everything that goes wrong. This attitude would drive everybody crazy. Very often I feel so sorry for Jack!

Btw, have you seen this list: http://www.afterelton.com/people/2007/7/hot100

Whew - is it hot in here???

Check out the picture of Hugh Jackman golfing in the towel. Such a Playgirl moment!:rotflmao2:

Btw, have you seen this list: http://www.afterelton.com/people/2007/7/hot100

Blimey... what alot of six packs in one article...phew...I need a lie down...in a dark room...alone. Just a little more chest hair would make me smile more:biggrin:

Jack does feel responsible for everyone and that's not a trait you find in just anyone. He wears it almost as a burden at times. To me he feels like he needs to be set free. Anyone wanna take up that challenge?;)

Whew - is it hot in here???

Check out the picture of Hugh Jackman golfing in the towel. Such a Playgirl moment!:rotflmao2:

Someone tell me why I am still at work? workaholism vs. hussydom... tough choice :confused:

Well, that takes care of it... Good thing we can do both type of hardcore around here. (Just in case the FBI asks, we should probably explain what we're talking about... nah... *covers Amy's eys* There!)

I've always wondered at Locke's motivation for never telling anyone that he's regained the use of his legs. Why is he guarding this secret? Rose knows because she'd seen him at the airport but no one else does. Yet, John spends a good deal of time trying to indoctrinate Jack into the Church of the Island. Our having really met Ben this season has cast a lot of light on John's past actions in the previous 2 seasons. John guards the secret of his healing jealously, like Ben has guarded his relationship with Jacob. John has tried to recruit "followers" to his church as Ben has. For the first time, John not only "belongs" to something, he's actually a leader. It must be heady stuff to someone who's been rejected his whole life and thought himself useless and powerless. I'm enjoying the "Darth"-ing of John Locke. I hope he resists and keeps to the good path but I'm fascinated when he's unable to because everything in this place calls to his most unfulfilled needs.

It's interesting that TSTID comments on how the island speaks to each of them differently. How it meets certain needs based on the person it's dealing with. With John, it seems to be embracing his weaknesses to turn him into a dangerous tool. Is the island feeding into Jack's need to "fix" people by providing opportunities for him to do so? I don't know. People say Jack is a control freak but the island is constantly challenges that aspect of Jack. Instead of giving him opportunities to control, it's constantly showing him the opposite - that he can't control one damn thing. Does this mean, then, that "the island" is trying to teach Jack something or does it mean, because he won't buy into the religion, that the island has decided he's an enemy? Does the island believe, like Christian, that Jack will crumble more with each failure and, in the end, it will destroy him?

I still can't decide whether the island itself is a benevolent entity or not. I see the majority of fans think Ben's the evil one who's trapping this mysterious powers and using it for his nefarious purposes, which would make Locke the island's tool to get rid of the bug eyed freak.

I hadn't considered it so far but if the island's the one telling Locke that Jack's "not supposed to do this" (the rescue) then it might have given Locke some of those precognitive abilities Des got when his clothes were arzted. So if the island doesn't want that noir future for the castaways and that's not Jack's destiny (Hey, I don't believe in it, but the writers apprently do) maybe it isn't evil after all.


Doc, I have thought a LOT about why Locke has never told a single soul about his disability previous to the crash. Rose knows about it, because she saw him in the airport yes, but she herself has been healed by the island. She too feels that the island is special, the same way that Locke does (even though Locke is more eccentric in his approach). It's very interesting, because in "Walkabout" [1x04] we see that Locke is completely hindered by the confines of that chair and now that he can walk again, now that he can do anything that he wants ("Don't tell me what I can't do"), why wouldn't he shout it from the rooftops that the island has fixed him, saved him, gave him life again. We've seen on many ocassions (even in the S3 Finale) that Locke has lost the ability to use his legs. In "Dues Ex Machina" [1x19], we see that Locke has once again flumbed because his legs have given out and he asks the island, questions the island.

Maybe Locke isn't supposed to tell anyone anything about his miracle. Maybe he's supposed to keep it to himself. But I believe that if he sat Jack down and told him about the fact that he was pushed out of an eight-story window that crushed his spinal column, and that he lived confined to a wheelchair for four years prior to the crash and when he woke up in the beach, he could walk again, Jack wouldn't have a real explanation for it (maybe an act of God...). Now, I can picture Jack's facial response to that. Jack being a established spinal surgeon who has seen many cases of paralysis and for Locke to tell Jack that he lived as a paralyptic up until the crash, would be the evidence of a miracle and Jack himself was a BIG part of a miracle (giving Sarah the ability to walk when there was no hope for her to ever regain that ability). So if Jack and Locke have another science vs. faith discussion, then maybe this time they can find a common-ground, but both men have to be open to it and I don't think either is there....yet.

Hm. It's interesting to think of that What If scenario. Maybe Rose can join in to tell him she has/had cancer. Locke didn't tell anyone because... well... these people aren't big on sharing info, but it's perfectly in character for Locke.

It's interesting to compare him to Sayid, who is also an alpha male type, similarly competent anc ourageous, and community minded, but not in any way controlling. Would Sayid be as effective a leader as Jack? No, because sometimes Jack's crazier qualities are the very things that enable him to be heroic and keep everyone alive. Jack often tries to take control first, then thinks on the fly. Sayid thinks a lot first, then observes, then thinks some more, then plans, then acts. I think it'd be safe to say that Jack's way has resulted in more saved lives than Sayid's. He thinks too much and is a little too detached to feel the crazy urgency inspires Jack to some of his more heroic deeds.

True. Another thing the rewind has reminded me of is that Sayid lost his cool in one of the very first days on the island by getting into a fight with Sawyer and Jack and Kate were the ones who broke up the fight. Humans are pack animals and their survival depends on defeating chaos. It's what they look for in a leader of the pack: the ability to bring order to chaos. So if this were a pack of wolves, that's where Sayid would have lost the Alpha Male position and not to the one who was fighting with.

Happy Birthday to those guys whose birthday it is :biggrin: :bdaygrin:

Hope you have a fabulous day:bdaybigr:

I would be more creative but I'm too tired and too fat (yea...its still in there:undecide: ).

I'm still coming in here in the vain hope that either seeing or reading about the Fox or the bad good doctor might spur some sort of physical emotion and when usually you could count on it....today.....nothing. Oh well - I need to do some more research - what a shame:tongue1:

Oh, hon. :hug: Let's see... What to do to help speed things along...

Hm... Like Jack Bauer, we solve our problems with violence (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/SGA/lorealcap12.jpg). Mmmmm (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/SGA/lorealcap10.jpg)... :biggrin:

Whew - is it hot in here???

Check out the picture of Hugh Jackman golfing in the towel. Such a Playgirl moment!:rotflmao2:

I don't know what it is about the "Eye of the Tiger" look some of the guys try to pull, but it just... doesn't come naturally (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)to some of them.

Someone tell me why I am still at work? workaholism vs. hussydom... tough choice :confused:

Perhaps you get a special kick out of Foxhussying at work. :D

Happy Birthday, Jinxy and Tiff! :birthday:

I don't know what it is about the "Eye of the Tiger" look some of the guys try to pull, but it just... doesn't come naturally (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)to some of them.

Ah, the Look That Knocks You Up. You know that there is a baby boom-let approximately 9 months after each incidence of posting this photo, right?

TSTID

Happy Birthday Jinxy and Tiff!!! :hapybday: :party: :birthday: :bdaygrin:

Happy Birthday Jinxy!! :bdaybigr: Miss you around here. Hope you have a great day today.

Take Care.

DL

Oups... guess I was so busy drooling over posting links to that list that I forgot to say:

Happy Birthday, Jinxy and Tiff!!! Have an awesome day!!!!

Perhaps you get a special kick out of Foxhussying at work. :D

Yep. You caught her... she's a big pervert that one... ;)

Ah, the Look That Knocks You Up. You know that there is a baby boom-let approximately 9 months after each incidence of posting this photo, right?

Well, I was hoping it would help kick off Helly's labor but yes, I'm well aware of its properties. :biggrin:

Happy Birthday to those guys whose birthday it is :biggrin: :bdaygrin:

Hope you have a fabulous day:bdaybigr:

I would be more creative but I'm too tired and too fat (yea...its still in there:undecide: ).

I'm still coming in here in the vain hope that either seeing or reading about the Fox or the bad good doctor might spur some sort of physical emotion and when usually you could count on it....today.....nothing. Oh well - I need to do some more research - what a shame:tongue1:

hellybongo - I'm sure you've heard a million ways to get things started but Mexican food worked for me twice! (and then there's always the way you got in the condition you're in - I've heard that works too, as exciting and comfortable as that probably sounds right now!!:biggrin: )

Good luck.

Doclover

and then there's always the way you got in the condition you're in - I've heard that works too, as exciting and comfortable as that probably sounds right now!!:biggrin:

*takes notes* Well, that's easy enough for me cause I have the tree blowing up on TiVo...

hellybongo - I'm sure you've heard a million ways to get things started but Mexican food worked for me twice! (and then there's always the way you got in the condition you're in - I've heard that works too, as exciting and comfortable as that probably sounds right now!!:biggrin: )

Good luck.

Doclover

Thanks darl. I do keep asking himself but he seems to fall asleep suspisciously everytime it comes down to it. Hhhmmm....could it be my extremely large belly? Nah....surely not.

Someone page the Doctor:biggrin:

Thanks darl. I do keep asking himself but he seems to fall asleep suspisciously everytime it comes down to it. Hhhmmm....could it be my extremely large belly? Nah....surely not.

Someone page the Doctor:biggrin:

The good doctor recommends repeated viewing of certain scenes from "Stranger in a Strange Land." He says the stork should arrive shortly therafter.

TSTID

Yep. You caught her... she's a big pervert that one... ;)


Moi? c'est impossible! You must have me confused for someone else :hypocrit: is it my fault that we schedule meetings at 7pm?a girl needs something to help get through the day

Thanks darl. I do keep asking himself but he seems to fall asleep suspisciously everytime it comes down to it. Hhhmmm....could it be my extremely large belly? Nah....surely not.

Someone page the Doctor:biggrin:


After he's heard enough complaining about how uncomfortable you are all the time, that belly won't bother him one bit - he'll want that baby out more than you do!!:biggrin: So start complaining!

Good luck.

Daphne

I should probably be a little worried that in the middle of a night spent with co-workers and friends I was so deathly bored that I kept thinking that I forgot the water running in the Den, ie there was something I really, really wanted to go back and read, but I couldn't remember what.

Eh, I don't care. I never pretended to like people in RL anyway. :biggrin:

Jack is already looked the surreal in the face in the pilot, and he knows about the polar bears. I think he knows he's in a rather peculiar locale. He just chooses to tend to the more practical aspects of the situation at hand, and put off that other goofy stuff as long as he can, because that's who Jack is. But I don't think Jack needs Locke to tell him that the island is weird.

No, given the propensity of running into people he's met before, people who have met his Dad, etc, I don't think he needs Locke for that. But we've seen the miracle theme in his story and Locke's miraculous healing would hit close to home so it's an interesting "What if" to ponder.

Add Rose to the mix too... We saw in Walkabout that Jack thought her husband was dead and she was in denial. He didn't want to give her false hope. Later on, it turns out her faith was rewarded and in TTLG we see Jack dreading the moment of having to tell Rose she lost Bernard again, this time for good. On that note, the finale and the last few episodes made me realize how much I'd missed Jack interacting with everyone, even though I was cruelly ROBBED of a Jack Daniels scene and the initial set up behind the boom boom plan. Dammit.


Since this season, I've looked at that scene as not only proof that Jack is capable of performing miracles of healing (which directly links him to...<da DUMMMM> the island), but also proof of Desmond's ability to see the future. I'm not sure Desmond knows he can do it at this point, but it's certainly something that he's openly predicting here, as if he has a feeling about it. And what do you know...he's right! I think his experience with the hatch implosion magnified some gifts he already had.


Yes, I think Dez had some flashes before the explosion... and I'm curious to see if Locke was given a gift as well. I don't know how Jack's healing powers work though... he desperately wanted to save Boone, so it's certainly not about wishing for it really, really badly and getting it out of the box.

There. I can finally go to bed now.

I believe that Jack has special gifts he is not aware of but nobody can save somebody the powers of the island want dead.

I was wondering, what do we Foxhussies think about our dear doctor's father? Sure, he was using Jack in ATBCHDI, but he was looking out for himself, you know? AND John Terry is awesome. And sexy. And he made our sexy doc a reality!

Christian is a fantastic character, IMO. I love the crap out of him.

I was wondering, what do we Foxhussies think about our dear doctor's father?

Oh no! Clauds will go nuts when she reads this. Because she hates Christian just that much and can't stand talking about him. You may have driven her away forever! :biggrin:

Sure, he was using Jack in ATBCHDI, but he was looking out for himself, you know?

This probably makes me an unethical scumbag, but if I'd been in Jack's place, I'd have signed the report contingent upon my dad arranging his retirement. If he leaves and remains out of practice, then he doesn't get reported and there's one less hubris-filled drunk in the nation's ORs. If he refuses, then I don't sign the report and destroy him with a clear conscience. As it was, Jack signed the report of his own free will, then turns his dad in, which makes him look to an outsider like he's a wee bit dodgy. I think if Jack had played it cooler, the situation could have ended more satisfactorily for everyone involved. But then, Jack was incapable of playing it cool, because his dad so pwns him emotionally that he's easily manipulated. Great stuff.

Christian is a fantastic character, IMO. I love the crap out of him.

As do I. He's one of my favorite characters on the show. Jack + Christian = great TV.

TSTID

Popping to say that I made a few new Foxy Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/14331.html#cutid1).

:redface:

I was wondering, what do we Foxhussies think about our dear doctor's father? Sure, he was using Jack in ATBCHDI, but he was looking out for himself, you know? AND John Terry is awesome. And sexy. And he made our sexy doc a reality!

Christian is a fantastic character, IMO. I love the crap out of him.

You should see John Terry in a Bruce Willis movie from the 80's "In Country" - he's HOTTTTT in that one. He's aged very well.

I think Christian loves Jack (I also think he's still alive - psst, don't tell Claudia...) but I think he's torn. On one hand, I genuinely believe that Christian is trying to help Jack in his own internal struggles. But, there is a part of Christian that I believe is jealous as hell of Jack because he thinks Jack is a better man than he could ever be. Every parent wants their kid to do better than him and there must be a lot of love and pride when that happens. But what if your kid really is better than you? How do you feel about that? Does parenthood erase competitiveness? Classic Oedipal - kill your father, marry your mother stuff.
100%
Popping to say that I made a few new Foxy Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/14331.html#cutid1).

:redface:

Beautiful Lulu. Where did you get the pictures?

Beautiful Lulu. Where did you get the pictures?

Thanks Dany :hug:

Lost-media (http://gallery.lost-media.com/thumbnails-1218.html) (We Are Marshall Premiere) :)

I believe that Jack has special gifts he is not aware of but nobody can save somebody the powers of the island want dead.

The Island sucks then. What, pray tell me, does it have against sweet metro guys with a big heart and a snarky sense of humor? Hm? Oh, I know... she was just jealous because of Locke.

Oh no! Clauds will go nuts when she reads this. Because she hates Christian just that much and can't stand talking about him. You may have driven her away forever! :biggrin:

:schmoll: Look what you've done, Remus!!! Bye everyone, nice knowing ya...

Popping to say that I made a few new Foxy Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/14331.html#cutid1).

:redface:

It would be a crime and a proof of supreme stupidity for Maybelline not to snatch Nestor Carbonell the way L'Oreal grabbed Foxy and used what Mother Nature created to their own advantage (and for our benefit ;)) I'm just saying... where's your business sense, people?

Mrs. B had some delightful visuals (http://upsa-daisy.livejournal.com/17724.html?#cutid1)waiting for me to come home as well. I don't usually wear emo icons, but you guys are just too good. :ntworthy: to all talented hussies.

Popping to say that I made a few new Foxy Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/14331.html#cutid1).

:redface:

Luka, those are GREAT. Fantastic!

Mrs. B had some delightful visuals (http://upsa-daisy.livejournal.com/17724.html?#cutid1)waiting for me to come home as well. I don't usually wear emo icons, but you guys are just too good. :ntworthy: to all talented hussies.

Those are great as well!

Today, I'm one happy hussy. This man makes me want to kill just to get next to him.

Erica

:schmoll: Look what you've done, Remus!!! Bye everyone, nice knowing ya...

NO! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1383.jpg) Come back, Claudia! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1385.jpg)

You only need the right person to ask. ;)

NO! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1383.jpg) Come back, Claudia! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1385.jpg)

You only need the right person to ask. ;)

Well, OK... but only as long as he doesn't ask nicely. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/Armpr0n/tellthem.jpg) :angelnot:

I haven't really had the time to answer your question properly because I have a love/hate relationship with Christian (the good kind of hate though) and well... he's one of my favorite characters.

He's aged very well.


Well, that's just more proof of realistic casting. :biggrin: I saw John Terry in Zodiac and I loved the way they used his voice and his commanding screen persona.

NO! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1383.jpg) Come back, Claudia! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1385.jpg)

You only need the right person to ask. ;)

Remus, Isn't that the truth.... Clauds will do anything with Dr. Jack asks of her.

Well, I've read the transcript from Comic Con over on eonline. No big news was revealed. (That wasn't revealed the day before, Michael's returning. Although they did speak to the fact that the flashback in TTLG was not the ending of LOST, and, the show was "never about getting off the island". The off-island stuff is just a "chapter" in the story. So, I'm speculating then that Jack (and Kate too) will somehow find his (their) way back to the island. Will Jack wake up in the middle of the bamboo forest again? Will we see that gorgeous whiskey colored eye open again? Is LOST island going to be Jack's Groundhog Day?

So, little news, is good news I guess.

I Choose Dr. Sexy (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/?action=view&current=mostgorgeousjackthemoth.jpg)!

:kiss: shoe

erm... did I miss something? Found this on wikipedia:

...Jack eventually agrees to operate on Ben after speaking with Kate and also after seeing her having sex with Sawyer, and he begins removing the tumor. During the surgery Jack insults Tom about his weight. However, he deliberately cuts open Ben's kidney sack, and radios to Kate and Sawyer that they have an hour before Ben dies. He tells Kate to repeat to him the story he told her upon their first meeting, so he knows they make it off in one piece...

wha?

*headdesk*

I don't know if the island will by Jack's Groundhog Day, but I think he will remain there once he gets back, and I don't think he'll be alone;)

Doc

It would be a crime and a proof of supreme stupidity for Maybelline not to snatch Nestor Carbonell the way L'Oreal grabbed Foxy and used what Mother Nature created to their own advantage (and for our benefit ;)) I'm just saying... where's your business sense, people?


:roflmao:
Oh, definetely. I find Carbonell so HOT.
Christian (John Terry) is HOT too, btw... Not as hot as Jack is, of course, but still hot... :redface:

Luka, those are GREAT. Fantastic!


Thanks Erica! :hug:

Remus, Isn't that the truth.... Clauds will do anything with Dr. Jack asks of her.

*nods*

Well, I've read the transcript from Comic Con over on eonline. No big news was revealed. (That wasn't revealed the day before, Michael's returning.

Well, there's a confirmation of a little something
That there's life after 2007... which... I know, I know... It's not a big shock around here but apparently it needed to be spelled out.

And last but definitely not least:

Will Jack and Claire find out they are related? Carlton rings the bell on Damon, but Damon nods furiously. Crowd goes wild.

I loved the "crowd goes wild" bit in particular. Of course, they're evil so they'll probably kill her off before that happens, but I'm still excited about it. :jump1:


erm... did I miss something? Found this on wikipedia:

During the surgery Jack insults Tom about his weight.

wha?

*headdesk*

:roflmao: That's funny because it's actually true, they just got the wrong episode. I could probably come up with my automatic software that produces Favorite Reasons To Hate Jack: In Par Avion, he sneakily tried to murder Tom by forcing him to exercise. Damn, I'm GOOD.

:roflmao: That's funny because it's actually true, they just got the wrong episode. I could probably come up with my automatic software that produces Favorite Reasons To Hate Jack: In Par Avion, he sneakily tried to murder Tom by forcing him to exercise. Damn, I'm GOOD.


I remember - that was great. Tom - If only he'd lost that weight he might have been a little quicker at the end of TTLG! (well, maybe not quicker than a bullet...);)

Let me ask you this - do you think that Jack was truly "befriending" Tom while he was in Othersville, or was Jack just playing along to find out information and maybe that Tom was the weak link? (Or was it at the end of TTLG when he said he was going to find Tom and kill him? - I forgot.) Thanks

DL

I haven't really had the time to answer your question properly because I have a love/hate relationship with Christian (the good kind of hate though) and well... he's one of my favorite characters.

You know, Christian's a bad dad, no doubt about it. But on the scale of Lost dads, he's not that bad. Locke's, Kate's, Sawyer's, and Sun's dads are all a lot worse. I still think Jack maybe could have finessed that medical hearing thing a little bit better, and there was absolutely no excuse for attacking him at the AA meeting...like any truly great monster, Christian somehow manages to elicit a certain degree of pity.

TSTID

Doc, Jack was very forthright with Tom when he was telling him just what he thinks about the Others in his glass cage and I don't think he made an effort to befriend him because he didn't need to. Tom was like a big, slobbering puppy. :biggrin: Ok, seriously... He was stuck with them in Otherville and Tom was one of the more humane jailers. They probably got to talk about football and hey... just because you're under surveillance in your quarters doesn't mean you can't exercise and enjoy being outside for the first time in weeks. We saw Jack do chin ups (that pervy, pervy Ben has that on tape) in his shark tank after all. But I don't think there was anything more behind it.

This probably makes me an unethical scumbag, but if I'd been in Jack's place, I'd have signed the report contingent upon my dad arranging his retirement. If he leaves and remains out of practice, then he doesn't get reported and there's one less hubris-filled drunk in the nation's ORs. If he refuses, then I don't sign the report and destroy him with a clear conscience. As it was, Jack signed the report of his own free will, then turns his dad in, which makes him look to an outsider like he's a wee bit dodgy. I think if Jack had played it cooler, the situation could have ended more satisfactorily for everyone involved. But then, Jack was incapable of playing it cool, because his dad so pwns him emotionally that he's easily manipulated. Great stuff.

Oh, absolutely. It's Christian's genius as a manipulator: he hits big. He promises never to do it again when he could have accepted that he just killed two innocent people and this might not be the last time. Had he told Jack about the baby and asked him to sign provided he retires... I don't know. Do you think Jack would have agreed? Because it's the LYING and the complete callousness on Christian's part that put Jack on the spot in that meeting. He already knew his dad manipulated him after he saw him in the hallway but he still went ahead until he found out about the baby. I think that if Jack had played it cool like that and he would have eventually found out about the pregnancy (the husband probably ended up suing anyway), his relationship with his father would have been destroyed all the same. While legally he would have had to shut up and bear it, I don't think Christian would have let this one go. "Thank God I have you and some anonymous nurse to rescue me". He needed to reach rock bottom in Australia in order to realize all those things he tells Sawyer about Jack.


I think Christian loves Jack (I also think he's still alive - psst, don't tell Claudia...)

*fingers in ears* La la la la la la la la...

but I think he's torn. On one hand, I genuinely believe that Christian is trying to help Jack in his own internal struggles. But, there is a part of Christian that I believe is jealous as hell of Jack because he thinks Jack is a better man than he could ever be. Every parent wants their kid to do better than him and there must be a lot of love and pride when that happens. But what if your kid really is better than you? How do you feel about that? Does parenthood erase competitiveness? Classic Oedipal - kill your father, marry your mother stuff.

At the point we got to (ATBCHDI), I don't think he's consciously jealous because he thinks of himself as Your Almighty Surgeon God who can handle anything despite empirical evidence to the contrary. But subconsciously... he basically tells Jack HE made sacrifices so he can save lives through his son. I'd really like to find out what made him this way.

You know, Christian's a bad dad, no doubt about it. But on the scale of Lost dads, he's not that bad. Locke's, Kate's, Sawyer's, and Sun's dads are all a lot worse. I still think Jack maybe could have finessed that medical hearing thing a little bit better, and there was absolutely no excuse for attacking him at the AA meeting...like any truly great monster, Christian somehow manages to elicit a certain degree of pity.

That's why I love his character so much. Because he truly can ellicit sympathy and is obviously a very twisted man himself. I don't want to feel for him, but I often do. Just not in this episode. :biggrin: And while I don't think he's as bad as some of the other daddies, I think that's mostly because he's a more complex character than all of them put together, has more screentime and more nuances. I've never found Cooper and Widmore anything more than one-note villains.

... just because you're under surveillance in your quarters doesn't mean you can't exercise and enjoy being outside for the first time in weeks. We saw Jack do chin ups (that pervy, pervy Ben has that on tape) in his shark tank after all. But I don't think there was anything more behind it.


Have I said recently how much I love Ben? That is one genius hussy. I'm still waiting for the dvd deleted clips of the chin ups he did in the cage when it was raining :hypocrit: (yes, they exist. no one burst my bubble with silly technicalities)

Doc, Jack was very forthright with Tom when he was telling him just what he thinks about the Others in his glass cage and I don't think he made an effort to befriend him because he didn't need to. Tom was like a big, slobbering puppy. :biggrin: Ok, seriously... He was stuck with them in Otherville and Tom was one of the more humane jailers. They probably got to talk about football and hey... just because you're under surveillance in your quarters doesn't mean you can't exercise and enjoy being outside for the first time in weeks. We saw Jack do chin ups (that pervy, pervy Ben has that on tape) in his shark tank after all. But I don't think there was anything more behind it.

One very well done element of Jack's captivity story was the effect he has on the Others. While they understand his failings very well, and try to exploit them in ways that make sense, they underestimate again and again what makes him strong. And one of the things that makes him strong is that, in certain situations, Jack may be relied up on to act selflessly and with honor. This is something they don't get, and something they react to with a mixture of curiosity, wonder and disbelief. They're all missing the chip that can conceive of and understand and appreciate human compassion. And it's ultimately their undoing where Jack is concerned.

This is especially true of Tom. He asks Jack why he gave himself up for his friends, they'll just leave and not come back. Tom doesn't get it but is really intrigued. He's really stunned by hearing Jack's story over the walkie as related by Kate. He's intrigued enough to ask Jack why he acted the way he did. He's sufficiently sympathetic to Jack to warn him about the cameras in the rec room when Jack visits Kate. I think Tom admires Jack and it certainly shows.

I'm halfway hoping Tom is not dead. I mean, he's a big guy...there's something to be said for a lot of extra padding when bullets are coming at you. I thought the Jack/Tom relationship was potentially very interesting.

Had he told Jack about the baby and asked him to sign provided he retires... I don't know. Do you think Jack would have agreed?

Yes. No problem.

I think that if Jack had played it cool like that and he would have eventually found out about the pregnancy (the husband probably ended up suing anyway), his relationship with his father would have been destroyed all the same.

Probably, but it's not the fact that his relationship with his father is kaputt that so deeply haunts Jack. It's guilt over the role he played (and it was a pretty direct one in bringing about his death. I think he'd be on the outs with his dad, but I think perhaps Jack might be better off himself mentally and emotionally.

While legally he would have had to shut up and bear it, I don't think Christian would have let this one go. "Thank God I have you and some anonymous nurse to rescue me".

True enough. But then, if Jack offers Christian a "deal," and Christian doesn't take it, I think some of the emotional burden is lifted from Jack anyway, especially when he finds out about the pregnancy.

He needed to reach rock bottom in Australia in order to realize all those things he tells Sawyer about Jack.

...and even when he is talking to Sawyer in the bar, he's still struggling. Like when he says, how grateful he is for what he did to him, then catches himself and says, "did FOR me." There's still a bit of unresolved hostility there, I'd say.

And yes, Christian is dead. DEADDEADDEADDEADDEAD.

Dead.

he basically tells Jack HE made sacrifices so he can save lives through his son. I'd really like to find out what made him this way.

Oh, I think he was BSing and spinning things to work Jack there. But he does say something interesting. He starts to say something about "with all that I've given..." and then cuts himself off. There is something else going on with Christian that I think we will find out. I really do think his role in the story is bigger than just being Jack (and Claire's) dad. At least I hope so, because then we will see more of him!

I don't want to feel for him, but I often do.

I don't have a hard time feeling for him because I don't see him as villainous, just sad. He's clearly a man who has profoundly let himself down and disappointed himself and can't get past it. There's a lot in him that's good, and he's got all the makings of a fine man and he knows it. But he's not, and he knows that too. And I also love the Christian/Jack relationship because in Christian you can see where Jack gets a few of his better qualities, and in Jack, you can see the shadows of Christian's darkness waiting in the wings. They're just fantastic, separately and together.

I've never found Cooper and Widmore anything more than one-note villains.

Cooper was just a really good portrait of a sociopath. I found him very disturbing. Widmore has the potential to be a really good baddie. I wouldn't mind seeing more of him. Also, I find Sun's dad intriguing. He doesn't have much screen time, but he's got plenty of nuance in his scenes that I like a lot.

TSTID

And yes, Christian is dead. DEADDEADDEADDEADDEAD.

Dead.


...lalalalalalalalalalalalala....(fingers in ears)

Popping to say that I made a few new Foxy Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/14331.html#cutid1).

:redface:

The Island sucks then. What, pray tell me, does it have against sweet metro guys with a big heart and a snarky sense of humor? Hm? Oh, I know... she was just jealous because of Locke.



:schmoll: Look what you've done, Remus!!! Bye everyone, nice knowing ya...



It would be a crime and a proof of supreme stupidity for Maybelline not to snatch Nestor Carbonell the way L'Oreal grabbed Foxy and used what Mother Nature created to their own advantage (and for our benefit ;)) I'm just saying... where's your business sense, people?

Mrs. B had some delightful visuals (http://upsa-daisy.livejournal.com/17724.html?#cutid1)waiting for me to come home as well. I don't usually wear emo icons, but you guys are just too good. :ntworthy: to all talented hussies.

Great icons, Luka and button:ntworthy::thumbsup:

Probably, but it's not the fact that his relationship with his father is kaputt that so deeply haunts Jack. It's guilt over the role he played (and it was a pretty direct one in bringing about his death. I think he'd be on the outs with his dad, but I think perhaps Jack might be better off himself mentally and emotionally.

I was in a rush and didn't have time to word it properly, but what I meant was that not only their relationship would have ended up being kaputt anyway, but Christian might have ended up the same way. I just don't see blissful retirement for him as long as he was forced into it and he couldn't be The Great Christian Shephard anymore.


...and even when he is talking to Sawyer in the bar, he's still struggling. Like when he says, how grateful he is for what he did to him, then catches himself and says, "did FOR me." There's still a bit of unresolved hostility there, I'd say.


But he's trying. In a way, it's like he's been relieved of a burden. I would love nothing more than to see him play a bigger part in the story because since the moment I saw him in WR I kept wondering what he was actually doing in Australia, why he didn't have any friends anymore (well, there's the obvious explanation), what the incident in the lobby was, etc...

But he does say something interesting. He starts to say something about "with all that I've given..." and then cuts himself off. There is something else going on with Christian that I think we will find out. I really do think his role in the story is bigger than just being Jack (and Claire's) dad. At least I hope so, because then we will see more of him!

Yes, that would be wonderful. I'm not getting my hopes up, but who knows.

There's a lot in him that's good, and he's got all the makings of a fine man and he knows it. But he's not, and he knows that too.

I always get that feeling whenever I rewatch White Rabbit and him giving Jack a lecture with one glass of whiskey in hand.

Also, I find Sun's dad intriguing. He doesn't have much screen time, but he's got plenty of nuance in his scenes that I like a lot.

There's a reason why I didn't put him on the list. We also have more info on him from outside the show.
...lalalalalalalalalalalalala....(fingers in ears)

THAT's the spirit! :p

This probably makes me an unethical scumbag, but if I'd been in Jack's place, I'd have signed the report contingent upon my dad arranging his retirement. If he leaves and remains out of practice, then he doesn't get reported and there's one less hubris-filled drunk in the nation's ORs. If he refuses, then I don't sign the report and destroy him with a clear conscience. As it was, Jack signed the report of his own free will, then turns his dad in, which makes him look to an outsider like he's a wee bit dodgy. I think if Jack had played it cooler, the situation could have ended more satisfactorily for everyone involved. But then, Jack was incapable of playing it cool, because his dad so pwns him emotionally that he's easily manipulated. Great stuff.




Well at the time ATBCHDI aired and thus what we knew about the situation it could have been a possibility but now let’s not forget about ATOTC.
Two things always puzzled me about ATBCHDI’s FB, Christian so called “manipulation” of Jack to sign the statement and Christian emphasizing the fact that the nurses called HIM for the operation, although he was at the restaurant, and NOT Jack who was in the hospital.
In ATOTC we see a very perturbed and agitated Jack after Sarah left him and a happy and relax Christian who has stop drinking and has a new mysterious lady friend!
Jack finds Christian’s phone number in Sarah phone and suspects she may be Christian new lady’s friend, but when Christian constantly eludes Jack’s suspicions instead of giving him a straight answer it’s only aggraded Jack agitated state and leads to his outburst in the AA meeting. And as a result Christian starts drinking again!
Now comes ATBCHDI: instead of calling Jack in the ER (who is upstairs) the nurses call Christian who’s in a restaurant WHY? My guess is, Jack is in the middle of his divorce and if he is as cranky as he was in ATBCHDI, well, if I was a nurse I would have call Christian instead too LOL. But the operation goes wrong because Christian is under the influence and the patient dies!
That puts the situation in a new perspective IMO:
Jack feels guilty because Christian started drinking again.
He feels guilty because the nurses didn’t dare to call him first in the ER.
Thus he feels guilty because the woman died!
That's why he signed the report, Jack let’s Christian play him because he feels guilty IMO.
It’s only when he learns about the baby and hears Christian trying to minimize his mistake once again, that Jack realizes that as guilty as he may feel about the ordeal, he can no longer let Christian get away with it because Christian will never face his responsibilities and will put other patients at risk.
Well, anyway that’s how I see it when we put all the FB in chronological order!

Freckles...your avi...:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Two things always puzzled me about ATBCHDI’s FB, Christian so called “manipulation” of Jack to sign the statement and Christian emphasizing the fact that the nurses called HIM for the operation, although he was at the restaurant, and NOT Jack who was in the hospital.
Jack seemed to be fully professional in ATBCHDI. Why didn't the hospital page him? Maybe it was a mix-up or maybe he wasn't on call or maybe he was scheduled for another imminent surgery. That (TV) hospital is a bit odd too, if in the ER they had only one person able to intubate a patient (Shannon's dad). Hell, I've watched enough ER that I could intubate a patient. In other words, all these "circumstances" were to set up the dramatic situation. Kind of like the early S3 plotline too. :rolleyes:

In ATOTC we see a very perturbed and agitated Jack after Sarah left him and a happy and relax Christian who has stop drinking and has a new mysterious lady friend!
Jack finds Christian’s phone number in Sarah phone and suspects she may be Christian new lady’s friend, but when Christian constantly eludes Jack’s suspicions instead of giving him a straight answer it’s only aggraded Jack agitated state and leads to his outburst in the AA meeting. And as a result Christian starts drinking again!

Well, it's only Jack's suspicions that Christian has a new lady friend, aka Sarah. Christian doesn't say that and we didnt' see that. Christian just seems the same as ever -- using every opportunity to emotionally manipulate Jack. He never did simply say "no, I am not seeing your wife." He just droned on with "Let it go, Jack." That would piss me off too.
I think it's really against the AA principles to blame Jack for Christian's resumed drinking. What he was learning in AA should have been that he is responsible for his own actions, not someone else who has "made" him do harmful things like drinking. Of course Sarah buys into the blame game because that's her style, and it's another opportunity to twist the knife.

Freckles...your avi...:biglaugh: :biglaugh:



I know:biggrin: I'm not sure who made it or where I found it though:confused:

Jack seemed to be fully professional in ATBCHDI. Why didn't the hospital page him? Maybe it was a mix-up or maybe he wasn't on call or maybe he was scheduled for another imminent surgery. That (TV) hospital is a bit odd too, if in the ER they had only one person able to intubate a patient (Shannon's dad). Hell, I've watched enough ER that I could intubate a patient. In other words, all these "circumstances" were to set up the dramatic situation. Kind of like the early S3 plotline too. :rolleyes:


Those are valid points LOL. But this is Lost! Where everything is left for interpretation LOL.
Mine, as I explained further in my post, was that it could have been Jack’s poor bedside manners at the time (because of his divorce) (and we all know how snappy he can be sometimes and how we ALL LOVE HIM FOR THAT LOL :hypocrit: tree-slapping anyone?) and not his professionalism or any mix-up that push the nurses to call Christian (who was outside) rather than Jack (who was apparently available).



Well, it's only Jack's suspicions that Christian has a new lady friend, aka Sarah. Christian doesn't say that and we didnt' see that. Christian just seems the same as ever -- using every opportunity to emotionally manipulate Jack. He never did simply say "no, I am not seeing your wife." He just droned on with "Let it go, Jack." That would piss me off too.
I think it's really against the AA principles to blame Jack for Christian's resumed drinking. What he was learning in AA should have been that he is responsible for his own actions, not someone else who has "made" him do harmful things like drinking. Of course Sarah buys into the blame game because that's her style, and it's another opportunity to twist the knife.


Well, Christian's behavior pissed me off big time too LOL and knowing Christian as well as he does and hearing him all flirty on the phone I totally understand Jack suspicions and that’s why I don’t feel sorry for Christian at all for Jack’s AA meeting outburst. Christian pushed him way to far just for the satisfaction of having the last word IMO, when a simple “no” I’m not the one sleeping with Sarah would have liberate Jack’s mind. Hell I even think that a “Yes” would have made Jack feels better at that point LOL.
And I don’t blame Jack for Christian’s resumed drinking either. Christian is a big boy nobody else but himself is to blame for that. BUT I also know Jack and I’m 100% sure that HE blames himself for Christian’s lapse and of course thank you so much Sarah for the knife twisting, Jack really needed that :rant:

That puts the situation in a new perspective IMO:
Jack feels guilty because Christian started drinking again.
He feels guilty because the nurses didn’t dare to call him first in the ER.
Thus he feels guilty because the woman died!
That's why he signed the report, Jack let’s Christian play him because he feels guilty IMO.

Thanks for bringing the timeline to our attention (as muddy as it is in places), oochie! It's great to see you in the rewind. :biggrin: Yes, I do believe Jack feels guilty and that's part of the emotional stronghold (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/ATBCHDI/jcmoment.jpg)Christian has on him. He looks so much like he's back in his father's office in White Rabbit and he's twelve and doesn't really want to be there. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/ATBCHDI/daddy-issues0474.jpg) He's about to kick his feet around in the ground (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/ATBCHDI/daddy-issues0473.jpg). (OK, so that second one was a totally gratuitous nose shot, but... oh, back off! I have issues, ok? :p)

I think it's really against the AA principles to blame Jack for Christian's resumed drinking. What he was learning in AA should have been that he is responsible for his own actions, not someone else who has "made" him do harmful things like drinking. Of course Sarah buys into the blame game because that's her style, and it's another opportunity to twist the knife.

If there'd be an axis of Responsibility and Feeling Guilty, Jack and Christian would be at opposite ends of the spectrum with equally devastating results for both their psyche. What I found interesting is that Jack says "you've done it before" and Christian promises never to do it again--it's a perfect example of the reversal of roles in dysfunctional families, part of the reason why children who grow up in that world do end up feeling uber-responsible, etc-- and while I don't think IT means killing a patient and covering it up (maybe Jack or someone else got there in time), it makes me think Christian's St. Sebastian "friends" might have known about his problem. In TTLG, Dr. Hamill tells Jack "We're aware of the issues" and obviously knows he's an alcoholic and yet he's still there.

The sad thing is, when Christian is finally capable of fully embracing the principles of AA and admitting he was wrong, he's in a seedy bar in Sydney, bottle in hand, drinking himself to death.

Well, Christian's behavior pissed me off big time too LOL and knowing Christian as well as he does and hearing him all flirty on the phone I totally understand Jack suspicions and that’s why I don’t feel sorry for Christian at all for Jack’s AA meeting outburst.

But Christian is not being flirty on the phone, at least not in any way that we can be sure of. He's chuckling at something someone is saying, and Jack makes a huge -- and unjustified, in the end -- assumption.

Christian pushed him way to far just for the satisfaction of having the last word IMO, when a simple “no” I’m not the one sleeping with Sarah would have liberate Jack’s mind.

Well, Christian isn't sleeping with Sarah, and he's shocked and hurt by Jack's accusations, and I think it's portrayed pretty clearly. Jack is absolutely and completely the party at fault in "A Tale of Two Cities." He's unreasonable, unbalanced, and commits assault. Worse, he commits assault on a much older man. This is shameful behavior. He is out of control and in the wrong. I think it's important that they have shown Jack to be capable of this behavior, because it's what makes his plaintive, quiet little "Is she...happy?" at the end of the episode so powerful, and such a meaningful step forward in the character's development. In ways, I find Jack in "A Tale of Two Cities" more painful to watch than the Jack in "Through the Looking Glass." In the latter, he's in the throes of addiction, and this fires much of his behavior in that episode. In the former, he's totally given himself over to his own obsession and rage, and he has no excuse for what he does. Absolutely none.

And I don’t blame Jack for Christian’s resumed drinking either. Christian is a big boy nobody else but himself is to blame for that.

I cut Christian the same slack I cut Jack in "Through the Looking Glass." They are indeed responsible for their own behavior, but there were also external triggers involved. With Jack, it's some horrible consequence of his phone call to the freighter. With Christian, that trigger is Jack, and nothing but Jack. So Jack is, in my opinion, partly to blame. If Jack doesn't attack his father, Christian's string of sober days continues. He may have relapsed later, but he would not have done so that night.

BUT I also know Jack and I’m 100% sure that HE blames himself for Christian’s lapse and of course thank you so much Sarah for the knife twisting, Jack really needed that :rant:

He's right to blame himself partly. His behavior was appalling. And as for Sarah -- Jack's a grown up. Sarah's an ice queen and not a particularly nice person, but he's a grown up man. The proper response to what she's doing is to divorce her and move on. Not turn into a stalker.

Again, I think Jack's unbalanced behavior is portrayed for a reason in this episode. Not to be excused because he's the hero and we love him and therefore it's justified. But to show that his profound goodness is mirrored in his personality by darkness, and to make his character breakthrough in the episode something very powerful. For me, it totally works. Which is why this episode is my favorite. "Through the Looking Glass" is a contender, but the fact that I have to fast forward through all of Charlie's scenes knocks it out of first place. :biggrin:

Anyway, I love me my Dr. Jack, in all his pure of heart, deeply troubled glory.

TSTID

I still can't decide whether the island itself is a benevolent entity or not. I see the majority of fans think Ben's the evil one who's trapping this mysterious powers and using it for his nefarious purposes, which would make Locke the island's tool to get rid of the bug eyed freak.

I hadn't considered it so far but if the island's the one telling Locke that Jack's "not supposed to do this" (the rescue) then it might have given Locke some of those precognitive abilities Des got when his clothes were arzted. So if the island doesn't want that noir future for the castaways and that's not Jack's destiny (Hey, I don't believe in it, but the writers apprently do) maybe it isn't evil after all.

I posted this in another thread, but I was curious as to why Ben would allow Michael to leave the island, yet allowing Jack to leave was out of the question. Why? Of course, it's possible that Michael didn't leave, but I have a feeling he did. Therefore, I have to wonder what is it about Jack, in particular, that makes his leaving against the island's wishes. Clearly, Locke shares this same attitude, otherwise why not just shoot Jack? Why can't he? Now, Ben does an about face when he's tied to the tree in telling Locke to shoot Jack. However, the more I rewatch the last few episodes, the more it appears that Ben is not the person who calls the shots. He's losing his grip on his power on the island, and Jack and Locke are at the core of this coup. Ben has become a miserly little dictator, and Jack and Locke pose a huge threat to that power.

Well, that's my opinion - at least until the next season :biggrin:

Hm. It's interesting to think of that What If scenario. Maybe Rose can join in to tell him she has/had cancer. Locke didn't tell anyone because... well... these people aren't big on sharing info, but it's perfectly in character for Locke.

I can't for the life of me figure out why Locke hasn't told Jack about his injuries. The fact that Jack is a spinal surgeon would help Locke's argument about the "mysteries of the island." Granted, Jack wouldn't believe Locke at first, but I'm sure Locke can spout a dozen medical terms and phrases to Jack that would be very familiar to a spinal surgeon. In addition, you have Rose's testimony that she SAW John in the wheelchair, and Jack does trust Rose. Lastly, didn't Jack see Locke carried on board the plane? I remember Jack putting something in the overhead compartment when Locke was carried on board or was Locke already in his seat? I can't remember. Either way, if Locke would SHARE some of the information he has contained in that loveable bald little noggin of his, it would help TONS with the lack of trust Jack has for this man - all of it well deserved, btw.

True. Another thing the rewind has reminded me of is that Sayid lost his cool in one of the very first days on the island by getting into a fight with Sawyer and Jack and Kate were the ones who broke up the fight. Humans are pack animals and their survival depends on defeating chaos. It's what they look for in a leader of the pack: the ability to bring order to chaos. So if this were a pack of wolves, that's where Sayid would have lost the Alpha Male position and not to the one who was fighting with.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence that Sayid is not the great, mighty, infallible person that seems to be the popular consensus among fans. Sayid screws up quite a lot, actually. He makes bad decisions, and he's just as emotional as anyone else, all of which makes him much more interesting.

Happy Birthday, Jinxy and Tiff! :birthday:

Yes, HAPPY BIRTHDAY JINXY AND TIFF!!

I believe that Jack has special gifts he is not aware of but nobody can save somebody the powers of the island want dead.

Wouldn't that be cool? God, that would completely freak out Jack.


I think Christian loves Jack (I also think he's still alive - psst, don't tell Claudia...) but I think he's torn. On one hand, I genuinely believe that Christian is trying to help Jack in his own internal struggles. But, there is a part of Christian that I believe is jealous as hell of Jack because he thinks Jack is a better man than he could ever be. Every parent wants their kid to do better than him and there must be a lot of love and pride when that happens. But what if your kid really is better than you? How do you feel about that? Does parenthood erase competitiveness? Classic Oedipal - kill your father, marry your mother stuff.

I agree. I think there is a big part of Christian that won't allow his ego to admit that his son has surpassed him, and yet, I think Christian is very proud of his son. I think that's part of Christian's inner conflict: The idea of showing genuine pride in his son's accomplishments and also not wanting to admit that he has been surpassed. Of course, it also doesn't help that these two men work at the same hospital. How can they not be compared?

(second part)


Let me ask you this - do you think that Jack was truly "befriending" Tom while he was in Othersville, or was Jack just playing along to find out information and maybe that Tom was the weak link? (Or was it at the end of TTLG when he said he was going to find Tom and kill him? - I forgot.) Thanks

I think Jack was simply observing everyone around him to find the weak links. Despite the fact that Tom seemed "nice" to Jack at times, Jack never forgot that he was constantly being watched and observed. In Alcatraz, he was under 24/7 observation. He was handcuffed and hooded with guns trained on him whenever they moved him. Jack observed how Tom was in the operating room with Ben, and I believe they deleted a scene when Tom told Jack that he's a dead man when this is all over. I could have sworn that scene existed and was posted during the hiatus. (Can someone verify?).

Regardless, even after Jack was moved to Othersville, he was still confined to his "house," under constant surveillance again. That scene when Kate came to rescue him and Jack was playing the piano, Jack was scared when Kate showed up. "Get out of here. Kate, they're watching me!" Seconds later, gunmen stormed through the door and pointed their guns at Jack and Kate.

I would love to know what happened to Jack during that last week in Othersville because I think there is more to the story. Jack wanted revenge big time when he got back to the beach.


Oh, absolutely. It's Christian's genius as a manipulator: he hits big. He promises never to do it again when he could have accepted that he just killed two innocent people and this might not be the last time. Had he told Jack about the baby and asked him to sign provided he retires... I don't know. Do you think Jack would have agreed? Because it's the LYING and the complete callousness on Christian's part that put Jack on the spot in that meeting.

I think the lying is what infuriates Jack more than anything, both in his flashbacks and his on-island experiences. He HATES being lied to, and although no one likes being deceived, for Jack, it's much more than that. His whole life with his parents is about manipulation, deception, and pretending. His mother knows her father is a cheat, I get that distinct impression from her. There's a reason she's such a cold witch, and there's a reason why she tries to hold on to Christian and ignore all his mistakes. The fact that she blames her own son for her husband's choices tells me that she has her head in the sand. "Your father was right about you." What the heck does that mean? Jack grew up in a house where alcoholism is observed but not discussed, and the lies and manipulations mount.

When Jack crashes on the island, he is faced with a whole new set of problems, and because he has spent a lifetime of dealing with master manipulators and deceivers, he can spot them when he hits craphole island. What hurts him most is when Kate does it to him (with the key/gun case). I completely understand Jack's outrage at Kate. She doesn't understand the intensity of it, but we do. Jack is still waiting for someone to trust, and it hasn't happened yet. He keeps hoping, but he's gotten body slammed so many times (mother, father, Sarah :mad:), and now from Kate and even the other Losties.

One very well done element of Jack's captivity story was the effect he has on the Others. While they understand his failings very well, and try to exploit them in ways that make sense, they underestimate again and again what makes him strong. And one of the things that makes him strong is that, in certain situations, Jack may be relied up on to act selflessly and with honor. This is something they don't get, and something they react to with a mixture of curiosity, wonder and disbelief. They're all missing the chip that can conceive of and understand and appreciate human compassion. And it's ultimately their undoing where Jack is concerned.

Well said, TSTID. Ben certainly had Jack well pegged after spending time with him and researching his life, but it's the little things in any human beings personality and moral center that can turn things on a dime. They were not expecting Jack to sacrifice himself, and I think Jack suspected that because he deliberately allowed Ben to think that he had turned: "I want what you promised me. I need to get the hell off this island." Ben believed, based on his research of Jack and his betrayal by Sarah, that if Jack saw Kate and Sawyer together, he might just crumble, and Jack allowed him to believe so. Jack's heroism took everyone off guard, not just Tom and Ben, but even Alex. She, too, questioned Jack about why he would save Ben, "after everything he did to you and your people." Jack's answer was short but effective, "Because I said I would." Jack is a man of his word. A man of honor. I don't think the Others have seen these attributes much, if at all.

This is especially true of Tom. He asks Jack why he gave himself up for his friends, they'll just leave and not come back. Tom doesn't get it but is really intrigued. He's really stunned by hearing Jack's story over the walkie as related by Kate. He's intrigued enough to ask Jack why he acted the way he did. He's sufficiently sympathetic to Jack to warn him about the cameras in the rec room when Jack visits Kate. I think Tom admires Jack and it certainly shows.

I think Tom began to really admire Jack too, which again makes me question the turn in their "relationship." I mean, Tom warns Jack about them listening in on him and Kate. Why would he do that and then turn around and want to murder the Losties? Ben instructed Tom to take his ten best men to the beach and kill the men if they got in his way. I wonder if Tom would have pulled the trigger on Jack.

I'm halfway hoping Tom is not dead. I mean, he's a big guy...there's something to be said for a lot of extra padding when bullets are coming at you. I thought the Jack/Tom relationship was potentially very interesting.

Yeah, I'm sad about it too. I'm also upset with HOW Sawyer killed Tom. It was just wrong.


In ATOTC we see a very perturbed and agitated Jack after Sarah left him and a happy and relax Christian who has stop drinking and has a new mysterious lady friend!
Jack finds Christian’s phone number in Sarah phone and suspects she may be Christian new lady’s friend, but when Christian constantly eludes Jack’s suspicions instead of giving him a straight answer it’s only aggraded Jack agitated state and leads to his outburst in the AA meeting. And as a result Christian starts drinking again!

Yeah, I don't see Jack as being the problem in ATOTC mostly because Christian and Sarah :mad: revel in manipulating Jack. The only thing Christian has to do in this episode is tell his son that he's not seeing Sarah. However, Christian KNOWS how this suspicion plays in his son's mind. He knows that Jack is insecure. He knows that Jack hates to fail. Christian knows all of this, and yet he pushes all of Jack's buttons. Sarah does the same by throwing her lover in Jack's face. She knows that Jack has a need to correct a wrong, to try and make things right, to "fix" things. How that became a high crime on Lost is beyond me, but there it is.

We're all familiar with a "Jack-in-the-box," right? Well that's what Christian and Sarah did to Jack. They crushed him into a small enclosed space, shut the lid, wound him up so tightly, and then waited until he exploded. And yet these two people have the nerve to act surprised like they are the wounded party. When someone you love asks you a direct question, answer it. Don't play him for the fool and then blame him because someone went back to the bottle.



Well, it's only Jack's suspicions that Christian has a new lady friend, aka Sarah. Christian doesn't say that and we didnt' see that. Christian just seems the same as ever -- using every opportunity to emotionally manipulate Jack. He never did simply say "no, I am not seeing your wife." He just droned on with "Let it go, Jack." That would piss me off too.

Exactly.

I think it's really against the AA principles to blame Jack for Christian's resumed drinking. What he was learning in AA should have been that he is responsible for his own actions, not someone else who has "made" him do harmful things like drinking. Of course Sarah buys into the blame game because that's her style, and it's another opportunity to twist the knife.

Agreed. Jack is not to blame for Christian's fall off the wagon. That's all on Christian, and Sarah is the worst kind of human being to throw that in Jack's face. She, too, knows how Jack blames himself for things, so even to suggest it to him as the reason for his father drinking again is another excuse to twist the knife. She is as much to blame for all her coyness in that whole debacle.

I really hope there is something in the upcoming seasons where Jack completely and utterly kicks Sarah to the curb, just squashes her like a bug on a windshield. "SPLAT*

Okay, I feel better. :biggrin:

He's right to blame himself partly. His behavior was appalling. And as for Sarah -- Jack's a grown up. Sarah's an ice queen and not a particularly nice person, but he's a grown up man. The proper response to what she's doing is to divorce her and move on. Not turn into a stalker.

Much as I hate her guts now, I agree. However...

Again, I think Jack's unbalanced behavior is portrayed for a reason in this episode. Not to be excused because he's the hero and we love him and therefore it's justified.


Yeah, I don't see Jack as being the problem in ATOTC mostly because Christian and Sarah :mad: revel in manipulating Jack. The only thing Christian has to do in this episode is tell his son that he's not seeing Sarah. However, Christian KNOWS how this suspicion plays in his son's mind. He knows that Jack is insecure. He knows that Jack hates to fail. Christian knows all of this, and yet he pushes all of Jack's buttons. Sarah does the same by throwing her lover in Jack's face. She knows that Jack has a need to correct a wrong, to try and make things right, to "fix" things. How that became a high crime on Lost is beyond me, but there it is.

We're all familiar with a "Jack-in-the-box," right? Well that's what Christian and Sarah did to Jack. They crushed him into a small enclosed space, shut the lid, wound him up so tightly, and then waited until he exploded. And yet these two people have the nerve to act surprised like they are the wounded party. When someone you love asks you a direct question, answer it. Don't play him for the fool and then blame him because someone went back to the bottle.

*rubs hands* Ooh, this is gonna be good. :popcorn:

For now, I'm going to comfortably plop myself in the middle of the road like any lazy bum (I'm such a coward :biggrin: ) and say that no, Jack being my adored pookie doesn't mean I give him carte blanche for his appalling behavior. I don't think anybody here does that. I can see the other perpective as well because I think of it in terms of who I think about Boone being a jerk in WR. He's wrong and my first instinct is to :headslap: him. Hard. But I know why he acts that way and I know who he is and where he's coming from. I treat Jack the same way. I treated Sarah the same way for a long time after THP actually because I wanted to see her side (ATOTC kinda killed that).

These are all profoundly screwed up individuals so... :headslap: Jack, :headslap: Christian in equal measure.


I think the lying is what infuriates Jack more than anything, both in his flashbacks and his on-island experiences. He HATES being lied to, and although no one likes being deceived, for Jack, it's much more than that. His whole life with his parents is about manipulation, deception, and pretending. His mother knows her father is a cheat, I get that distinct impression from her. There's a reason she's such a cold witch, and there's a reason why she tries to hold on to Christian and ignore all his mistakes. The fact that she blames her own son for her husband's choices tells me that she has her head in the sand. "Your father was right about you." What the heck does that mean? Jack grew up in a house where alcoholism is observed but not discussed, and the lies and manipulations mount.


Well, I'll get to WTCMB pretty soon because this is another episode that becomes more interesting in hindsight.

(Agreed. Jack is not to blame for Christian's fall off the wagon. That's all on Christian, and Sarah is the worst kind of human being to throw that in Jack's face. She, too, knows how Jack blames himself for things, so even to suggest it to him as the reason for his father drinking again is another excuse to twist the knife. She is as much to blame for all her coyness in that whole debacle.

Well, as long as we're holding people responsible for their behavior -- like Christian, for example, let's hold Jack responsible for his. Christian and Sarah are not to blame for Jack's behavior. Jack, and only Jack, is.

There are external triggers (there always are) -- Jack's assault of his father is clearly the precipitating incident in Christian's relapse, just as Christian's manipulations and Sarah's general horrid personality and lack of compassion are triggers of Jack. But as a big, grown-up man, Jack is the sole person responsible for his generally unbalanced, anti-social (stalking) behavior and violent (assault) in ATOTC. Otherwise, the episode's themes and dramatic breakthroughs have no lasting meaning for the character at all!

If Jack is simply some poor mistreated baby, some helpless sap/victim, then what's the big deal for him to "let it go" at the end of the episode -- it was never in his control in the first place? It means nothing to make the gesture he makes. If he was the one responsible, though, and his actions were his own choice, then it means a hell of a lot and making the gesture to let go constitutes a fundamental redefinition of his character (which is what I think it was).

I can see the other perpective as well because I think of it in terms of who I think about Boone being a jerk in WR. He's wrong and my first instict is to :headslap: him. Hard. But I know why he acts that way and I know who he is and where he's coming from. I treat Jack the same way. I treated Sarah the same way for a long time after THP actually because I wanted to see her side (ATOTC kinda killed that).

You mean treat him with sympathy and compassion? Hell yeah. I've got plenty of that. As you know, I'm feel both for Sawyer, and yes, even a little dollop for Sarah, even at this stage. So it goes without saying that I'm up to my eyeballs in sympathy for Jack, always. But in our discussions of his ATOTC antics, I always here, "Well, Christian did this to him and Sarah did that." Yeah, OK, true. He's been batted about emotionally...so? My heart breaks for him on that account. He deserves so much more from the people around him (on and off the island), in the present and in the "future." Everywhere, all the time. But this is no earthly excuse for his behavior, which is horrible throughout the episode.

And yeah, I love Boone, and think he's a brat there, but sympathizing with his being made to feel inadequate yet again, and his fear and shame at failing in his rescue attempt is not remotely in the same ballpark as what Jack pulls in ATOTC. So there's a little more for Jack to account for, and since his was behaving so disturbingly, and we know he's capable of infinitely better, he deserves harder scrutiny.

These are all profoundly screwed up individuals so... :headslap: Jack, :headslap: Christian in equal measure.

I think Christian wins that contest, simply because he has no powerful goodness in him to lift him above his own failings, as Jack does. Jack, for all his faults, and they are many, and some of them are great, is defined by the better angels of his nature (I don't think Mr. A. Lincoln would mind my applying his phrase to such a fine hottie as Dr. Jack) in a way that Christian simply is not. That's Christian's tragedy and that will ultimately be Jack's salvation.

TSTID

I hope for Jack´s salvation! He is a so much better man than Christian could have ever been!

But Christian is not being flirty on the phone, at least not in any way that we can be sure of. He's chuckling at something someone is saying, and Jack makes a huge -- and unjustified, in the end -- assumption.

Yes, but Christian is VERY much aware of what Jack is assuming. This is where Christian is in the wrong. Again, you don't hurt someone you supposedly love, and Christian is aware that Sarah left Jack, and that Jack is broken up about it. Why in the world would Christian then allow Jack to assume anything? I don't think Jack's unjustified. Christian walks in on Jack furiously calling every number in the book and Jack tells his father why he's doing it. When Jack finally dials one of the numbers and Christian's phone rings, THAT'S the moment when Christian should have sat down and answered his son's questions. He didn't. Why? Not only did Christian NOT answer Jack's questions, but he fed Jack's assumptions like a hungry shark.

Well, Christian isn't sleeping with Sarah, and he's shocked and hurt by Jack's accusations, and I think it's portrayed pretty clearly. Jack is absolutely and completely the party at fault in "A Tale of Two Cities."I disagree as stated above. If Christian was truly shocked and hurt, he would have answered Jack's questions. Now, Jack is certainly not innocent. He has to take responsibility for his actions, certainly, but Jack is not solely and completely at fault. Christian played a MAJOR role in what happened. He could have nipped it in the bud before it became a full blown problem during that very first conversation with his son. What is the big deal with telling Jack the truth? This is what I don't understand. Why couldn't Christian sit down, after Jack realized that Sarah was calling him, and answer his sons questions? Was Jack's questions so unreasonable? "Why is Sarah calling you, Dad?" All Christian had to say was, "Jack I've been attending AA meetings, and I've asked Sarah to be my sponsor." If Jack asks why his father didn't ask him, Christian might have said, "I was afraid that I wouldn't last, and I didn't want to disappoint you." My point is that Christian could have been a true father AND an adult. Instead, he played Jack using all of Jack's insecurities against him.

He's unreasonable, unbalanced, and commits assault. Worse, he commits assault on a much older man. This is shameful behavior. He is out of control and in the wrong. Yes, Jack completely lost it and attacked his father, and although I agree that a younger man should never attack an older man, I can also see understand how Jack snapped. This whole room of strangers knows intimate details of Jack's life. Yes, that's a big part of AA, but what gets Jack's goat is that his own father wouldn't open up to HIM about anything, but he would tell a roomful of strangers. It's another knife to Jack. Another deception.

I agree with you that assault on an older man is shameful, but I also know that Christian played a part.

I think it's important that they have shown Jack to be capable of this behavior, because it's what makes his plaintive, quiet little "Is she...happy?" at the end of the episode so powerful, and such a meaningful step forward in the character's development. Yeah, those three little words at the end were so heartbreaking because we saw the struggle behind them. Don't get me wrong, TSTID, I know that Jack is not perfect and is capable of being an ***. I just don't feel that what happened in ATOTC was ALL Jack's fault. Christian and Sarah played a part in all of it, and they too have to take responsibility for how things played out.

I guess you and I don't agree on this point at all, and we could both probably debate this for hours. That's okay. We DO agree on one thing: See below.


Anyway, I love me my Dr. Jack, in all his pure of heart, deeply troubled glory.

TSTID

There are external triggers (there always are) -- Jack's assault of his father is clearly the precipitating incident in Christian's relapse, just as Christian's manipulations and Sarah's general horrid personality and lack of compassion are triggers of Jack. But as a big, grown-up man, Jack is the sole person responsible for his generally unbalanced, anti-social (stalking) behavior and violent (assault) in ATOTC. Otherwise, the episode's themes and dramatic breakthroughs have no lasting meaning for the character at all!

If Jack is simply some poor mistreated baby, some helpless sap/victim, then what's the big deal for him to "let it go" at the end of the episode -- it was never in his control in the first place? It means nothing to make the gesture he makes. If he was the one responsible, though, and his actions were his own choice, then it means a hell of a lot and making the gesture to let go constitutes a fundamental redefinition of his character (which is what I think it was).

It's why I don't want the 2007 flashpresent erased and we've been over that. I'm glad there's a great chunk of the story set afterwards because I want Jack to be redifined yet again by where he goes from there on. I have no idea how. But I'm excited to see it.


And yeah, I love Boone, and think he's a brat there, but sympathizing with his being made to feel inadequate yet again, and his fear and shame at failing in his rescue attempt is not remotely in the same ballpark as what Jack pulls in ATOTC. So there's a little more for Jack to account for, and since his was behaving so disturbingly, and we know he's capable of infinitely better, he deserves harder scrutiny.


:lol2: I was just explaining my mental process (the same type of reasoning for two very different situations), I never meant to equate them. The Boone situation was fresh in my mind because I'd just explained how I felt about him the other day and I was too lazy to think of a more appropriate example.



I think Christian wins that contest, simply because he has no powerful goodness in him to lift him above his own failings, as Jack does. Jack, for all his faults, and they are many, and some of them are great, is defined by the better angels of his nature (I don't think Mr. A. Lincoln would mind my applying his phrase to such a fine hottie as Dr. Jack) in a way that Christian simply is not. That's Christian's tragedy and that will ultimately be Jack's salvation.


Oh, I meant in equal measure for ATOTC alone, not for their story in general. (And if I smacked him, don't worry... I'll be the first to kiss the booboo anyway. :kisss:) And since oochie brought up the timeline, I thought I'd take advantage of it... Because off the wagon or not, Christian is the one who can't be healed because he breaks the commandments of AA in ATBCHDI, ie NEVER blame someone else (fate in this case) and take responsibility for your actions. He thinks he can handle it and he's so damn sure of it, no remorse whatsoever. Jack says he's done it before and he's unapologetic about it because he has what it takes to handle it, etc (I don't know if he believes it or not, but it works for the ploy he sets up in that scene.)

Well, as long as we're holding people responsible for their behavior -- like Christian, for example, let's hold Jack responsible for his. Christian and Sarah are not to blame for Jack's behavior. Jack, and only Jack, is.

There are external triggers (there always are) -- Jack's assault of his father is clearly the precipitating incident in Christian's relapse, just as Christian's manipulations and Sarah's general horrid personality and lack of compassion are triggers of Jack. But as a big, grown-up man, Jack is the sole person responsible for his generally unbalanced, anti-social (stalking) behavior and violent (assault) in ATOTC. Otherwise, the episode's themes and dramatic breakthroughs have no lasting meaning for the character at all!

I agree, and I do hold Jack accountable for his actions. He is most certainly responsible for stalking Sarah. That lies on his shoulders and no one elses, and he is also responsible for his attack of his father. Where we don't agree is that everything that happened in ATOTC is Jack's fault completely. I disagree.

Yes, Jack is a grown up and an adult, but I know parents and their opinions can cut the deepest, regardless of how old you are. I'm 41, and my mother's criticisms or compliments mean more than anything from other people. My point is that Christian knows how to hurt his son, and he utilizes it often. Is Jack responsible for stalking Sarah? Absolutely. Is Jack responsible for attacking his father? Definitely. Is Jack responsible for not trusting his father? Nope. Is Jack responsible for being suspicious or assuming an affair between Sarah and his father? No again.

Overall, yes, Jack is responsible for his actions. We all agree on that, but I can't dismiss Christian's part in what played out in ATOTC. If Christian had sat his son down and answered all his questions and then Jack STILL decided to mistrust his father and assume the worst, then it would ALL have been on Jack. That's not what happened. Just because someone didn't actually pull the trigger doesn't mean they didn't help load the gun.

These are all profoundly screwed up individuals so... :headslap: Jack, :headslap: Christian in equal measure.

Very true, which makes both characters so interesting.

If Christian was truly shocked and hurt, he would have answered Jack's questions. Now, Jack is certainly not innocent. He has to take responsibility for his actions, certainly, but Jack is not solely and completely at fault. Christian played a MAJOR role in what happened. He could have nipped it in the bud before it became a full blown problem during that very first conversation with his son. What is the big deal with telling Jack the truth? This is what I don't understand. Why couldn't Christian sit down, after Jack realized that Sarah was calling him, and answer his sons questions? Was Jack's questions so unreasonable? "Why is Sarah calling you, Dad?" All Christian had to say was, "Jack I've been attending AA meetings, and I've asked Sarah to be my sponsor." If Jack asks why his father didn't ask him, Christian might have said, "I was afraid that I wouldn't last, and I didn't want to disappoint you."

Oh, I think I can try to answer that (though I should be somewhere else by now :biggrin: ). Because even in Sydney, when he's hit rock bottom, he has to fight with his old self to admit that he was wrong, that what Jack did in ATBCHDI was for him. Christian himself answers your question actually. "Because I'm weak." He can't bring himself to admit that to Jack, he's not there yet. Look where he is in ATBCHDI. That wasn't his first offense and yet, he says he can handle it. He's a very sad, twisted, screwed up man himself, so I don't expect him to be a functional adult and a good parent.

Is Jack responsible for being suspicious or assuming an affair between Sarah and his father? No again.

No, that one's on the writers. :biggrin: My very first post on The Fuselage was in a poll about Sarah's mystery lover in THP and A LOT of fans were convinced it was Christian.

Oh, I think I can try to answer that (though I should be somewhere else by now :biggrin: ). Because even in Sydney, when he's hit rock bottom, he has to fight with his old self to admit that he was wrong, that what Jack did in ATBCHDI was for him. Christian himself answers your question actually. "Because I'm weak." He can't bring himself to admit that to Jack, he's not there yet. Look where he is in ATBCHDI. That wasn't his first offense and yet, he says he can handle it. He's a very sad, twisted, screwed up man himself, so I don't expect him to be a functional adult and a good parent.

Yeah, but I don't think weakness had anything to do with it. Christian just DIDN'T want to tell Jack or answer his questions. Do you mean that he felt weak to admit he had an alcohol problem? If so, then I can see what you're trying to say. Maybe he didn't want to verbalize to Jack his weakness for alcohol, but then again, Jack is aware of his father's alcoholism. If anything, I think Jack would have felt some pride or connection to his father for trying and admitting his weakness.

I just don't understand Christian. He'll confess his weaknesses and his deepest feelings to a room full of strangers and to Sarah, but not to Jack. This may explain why Jack doesn't open up to anyone either.

I DO love Jack and Christian. :biggrin:

On a side note: Did you guys catch the new ABC promos for their shows? Guess who is shown front and center for Lost? Go ahead, take a guess. ;)

WOW! There's actual discussion going on.....and I missed out on it. :crybaby:

But I think I'll make it. I love the discussion of Jack/Sarah/Christian that's going on and if I wasn't so damn tired I would chime in. Maybe some other time.....

Forever Foxy's lady,

Erica

*trundles up the hill three hours late* I feel like Sullivan, finding out everyone's having a great time at a golf game. Can I play?

... Worse, he commits assault on a much older man. This is shameful behavior. He is out of control and in the wrong. I think it's important that they have shown Jack to be capable of this behavior, because it's what makes his plaintive, quiet little "Is she...happy?" at the end of the episode so powerful, and such a meaningful step forward in the character's development. In ways, I find Jack in "A Tale of Two Cities" more painful to watch than the Jack in "Through the Looking Glass." In the latter, he's in the throes of addiction, and this fires much of his behavior in that episode. In the former, he's totally given himself over to his own obsession and rage, and he has no excuse for what he does. Absolutely none. That's a great point about the emotional journey he took on-island in ATOTC.

... He's right to blame himself partly. His behavior was appalling. And as for Sarah -- Jack's a grown up. Sarah's an ice queen and not a particularly nice person, but he's a grown up man. The proper response to what she's doing is to divorce her and move on. Not turn into a stalker. Call me what you want, but I don't think his "stalking" of Sarah was all that reprehensible. Wrong, yes, but not criminal and pretty tame on the scale when compared to other Losties. Did he threaten her with violence or ever use violence on her? No. Did he harrass her on the phone or confront her publicly? No. Were any animals harmed in the making of this flashback? Again, no. :rolleyes:
He sat in his car and watched her place of work, and went thru their joint cell phone records and called to see who was on the other end. I know responsible parents who do the same with their kids who have problems at the suggestion of "experts".
Granted, there are thousands of real-life situations where this situation has escalated into violence, but that's not what we were shown. He was polite and civil to her at their every encounter, in the attorney's office and in the police station.

(second part)
I think Jack was simply observing everyone around him to find the weak links. Despite the fact that Tom seemed "nice" to Jack at times, Jack never forgot that he was constantly being watched and observed. In Alcatraz, he was under 24/7 observation. He was handcuffed and hooded with guns trained on him whenever they moved him. Jack observed how Tom was in the operating room with Ben, and I believe they deleted a scene when Tom told Jack that he's a dead man when this is all over. I could have sworn that scene existed and was posted during the hiatus. (Can someone verify?).

Regardless, even after Jack was moved to Othersville, he was still confined to his "house," under constant surveillance again. That scene when Kate came to rescue him and Jack was playing the piano, Jack was scared when Kate showed up. "Get out of here. Kate, they're watching me!" Seconds later, gunmen stormed through the door and pointed their guns at Jack and Kate. At that point he shouts "Don't hurt her!" Much has been made by some parties of how brutal it was of Jack to leave Kate handcuffed after he and Kate were allowed to meet in the pool room. Even though he didn't have handcuffs on, he was just as much a prisoner, as you illustrated above, Maxum. His next stop was to talk to Ben and get his word to let Kate and Sayid go free (he didn't know about Locke). He did everything he could, IMO, while still holding on to the plan to leave the island in order to return with rescue for all of the losties.



Ben certainly had Jack well pegged after spending time with him and researching his life, but it's the little things in any human beings personality and moral center that can turn things on a dime. They were not expecting Jack to sacrifice himself, and I think Jack suspected that because he deliberately allowed Ben to think that he had turned: "I want what you promised me. I need to get the hell off this island." Ben believed, based on his research of Jack and his betrayal by Sarah, that if Jack saw Kate and Sawyer together, he might just crumble, and Jack allowed him to believe so. Jack's heroism took everyone off guard, not just Tom and Ben, but even Alex. She, too, questioned Jack about why he would save Ben, "after everything he did to you and your people." Jack's answer was short but effective, "Because I said I would." Jack is a man of his word. A man of honor. I don't think the Others have seen these attributes much, if at all. Right! Ben underestimated Jack at every turn. Ben gave a lot of lip service to "giving his word" with his people, the Others, and that's what Jack counted on in extracting a promise to let his friends go. But the Others were probably accustomed to Ben's word being full of loopholes and double-crosses.


I think Tom began to really admire Jack too, which again makes me question the turn in their "relationship." I mean, Tom warns Jack about them listening in on him and Kate. Why would he do that and then turn around and want to murder the Losties? Ben instructed Tom to take his ten best men to the beach and kill the men if they got in his way. I wonder if Tom would have pulled the trigger on Jack.That's a really interesting question. I think Tom had found a new best friend but it didn't extend to any loyalty to the other Losties. And Jack trusted him only as far as he could throw him, which even for Jack's strong arms is not very far.


Yeah, I don't see Jack as being the problem in ATOTC mostly because Christian and Sarah :mad: revel in manipulating Jack. The only thing Christian has to do in this episode is tell his son that he's not seeing Sarah. However, Christian KNOWS how this suspicion plays in his son's mind. He knows that Jack is insecure. He knows that Jack hates to fail. Christian knows all of this, and yet he pushes all of Jack's buttons. Sarah does the same by throwing her lover in Jack's face. She knows that Jack has a need to correct a wrong, to try and make things right, to "fix" things. How that became a high crime on Lost is beyond me, but there it is. Well put. Yeah, why is that? But the barnyard animals resented the Little Red Hen too.

I really hope there is something in the upcoming seasons where Jack completely and utterly kicks Sarah to the curb, just squashes her like a bug on a windshield. "SPLAT*

Okay, I feel better. :biggrin: I second that. PS You forgot to put the little red angry-face next to Sarah's name in your last paragraph. It's so cute.

Yes, Jack completely lost it and attacked his father, and although I agree that a younger man should never attack an older man, I can also see understand how Jack snapped. This whole room of strangers knows intimate details of Jack's life. Yes, that's a big part of AA, but what gets Jack's goat is that his own father wouldn't open up to HIM about anything, but he would tell a roomful of strangers. It's another knife to Jack. Another deception.

I agree with you that assault on an older man is shameful, but I also know that Christian played a part. The behavior of the AA facilitator woman is deplorable too - taunting Jack "yes, we know all about you, Jack." I don't think that's in the AA handbook either. Maybe she was Helen's sister (who just wanted to stand up and scream something like "shut up you whiners" at her and Locke's group.)

At that point he shouts "Don't hurt her!" Much has been made by some parties of how brutal it was of Jack to leave Kate handcuffed after he and Kate were allowed to meet in the pool room. Even though he didn't have handcuffs on, he was just as much a prisoner, as you illustrated above, Maxum. His next stop was to talk to Ben and get his word to let Kate and Sayid go free (he didn't know about Locke). He did everything he could, IMO, while still holding on to the plan to leave the island in order to return with rescue for all of the losties.

Jack was under control as long as he knew Kate was not in the same mess he was in at that moment. He thought she was safe at the beach. However, the minute he sees Kate and the guns at her back, the control shifts right back to Ben and the Others.

Yeah, I know Jack took grief for leaving Kate and Sayid. What I found amusing was that Locke comes into the room that Kate is handcuffed in, he tells her that she's not the person he thought she was, and then leaves her to be gassed. That seemed to be okay. :rolleyes:

Right! Ben underestimated Jack at every turn. Ben gave a lot of lip service to "giving his word" with his people, the Others, and that's what Jack counted on in extracting a promise to let his friends go. But the Others were probably accustomed to Ben's word being full of loopholes and double-crosses. In the beginning, I thought Ben was a man of his word, but as more of his power was siphoned away, he began to resort to outright lying. He is not happy that Jack bested him at every turn, and he is not happy that Locke heard Jacob's voice.


That's a really interesting question. I think Tom had found a new best friend but it didn't extend to any loyalty to the other Losties. And Jack trusted him only as far as he could throw him, which even for Jack's strong arms is not very far. It would have been interesting to see their "relationship" play out. I think Tom had a lot more questions for Jack. I think Jack intrigued Tom on some level, and wanted to know more about what made him tick. Jack, on the other hand, just wants to find a way off the island for him and his people.

I second that. PS You forgot to put the little red angry-face next to Sarah's name in your last paragraph. It's so cute. I actually didn't. I wasn't sure if I was getting too repetitive, but I can't help that every time I type her name, I just see red. I actually wish I had this angry chain saw face that is available on other sites. It's my favorite for Sarah.:mad:

The behavior of the AA facilitator woman is deplorable too - taunting Jack "yes, we know all about you, Jack." I don't think that's in the AA handbook either. Maybe she was Helen's sister (who just wanted to stand up and scream something like "shut up you whiners" at her and Locke's group.)And that's my point. It's not that Jack ISN'T guilty of his actions, but there are a string of events that lead to that final confrontation between Jack and Christian. It was a slow build up, and for Jack to walk in and find out that his father is talking to strangers about him, when his own father won't talk to his son, must just kill Jack. "We know all about you, Jack." That's like Kryptonite for Jack. It just buckles him because Jack knows (or believes he knows) exactly what his father thinks of him, and for Jack, now everyone in the room knows how useless and worthless his father thinks he is. It's a humiliating moment for Jack, even if Christian shared nothing but good things about Jack with the group. The point is that Christian shows OTHER people one side of his personality, and he shows Jack a very different side. How am I suppose to blame all of Jack's reactions to his father solely on him? Yes, ultimately, Jack is responsible for HIS actions, and he must be held accountable. He chose to attack his father, but Christian could easily have deflected that anger before it spiraled out of control. He chose not to do so. In fact, he fed it. It's really sad. If you think about it, Christian shares his feelings with Sarah :mad:, with his AA group, and even with Sawyer - but never with Jack. He took his feelings, his love, and his pride in his son to his grave, and that's just sad.

Hello fellow Foxhussies!

Jack was under control as long as he knew Kate was not in the same mess he was in at that moment. He thought she was safe at the beach. However, the minute he sees Kate and the guns at her back, the control shifts right back to Ben and the Others.

Yeah, I know Jack took grief for leaving Kate and Sayid. What I found amusing was that Locke comes into the room that Kate is handcuffed in, he tells her that she's not the person he thought she was, and then leaves her to be gassed. That seemed to be okay. :rolleyes:

This is exactly my point as well as to why Jack was spending his time with the Others the way that he was. In the episode "I Do", Jack made Ben believe that he broke him (by seeing Kate with Sawyer), that he was done with the survivors and that he had him right where he wated him and we saw how that played out (a standoff in the middle of the operating room...). I believe Jack when he said, "You know I just, kept my head down, did what I was supposed to. Didn't ask any questions" about his time with the Others because he knew that Ben was under the impression that he was fed up and he wanted out for his own selfish reasons, which was not the case. Jack had to keep a straight face.

Kate showing up definitely shifted the power from Jack to Ben and the Others. Knowing that Kate was safe on the beach gave Jack some sense of control over something, but seeing that she completely defied his wishes and went after him anyway, got Jack worried and uneasy. She was right back in the line of fire and Jack was completely helpless against it. He couldn't do a thing because he too was a prisoner, he wasn't handcuffed or gagged, but he was a prisoner who was watched and observed day in and day out, but he was a prisoner that served a purpose for Ben.

Jack did take grief about leaving Kate and Sayid there alone with them, and he expressed that Ben keeping his friends would greatly affect him leaving on the sub. Jack said, "I need you to let my friends go after I'm gone..." Ben says, "And if I said no would that stop you from leaving?" and Jack says, "Of course it would". Now Locke didn't really seem to care what they did to Kate. He said that he knew about her, the things that she's done in her past and his last words were "Good luck..." Jack, before he left Kate, said, "But I will come back here for you..." and Locke gives a lousy "Good luck". Wow Locke, thanks for the backup. :rolleyes:

In the beginning, I thought Ben was a man of his word, but as more of his power was siphoned away, he began to resort to outright lying. He is not happy that Jack bested him at every turn, and he is not happy that Locke heard Jacob's voice.

Ben is very upset about the fact that Jack beat him at his own game. Ben feels very protective of his qualities and what makes him special and Jack and Locke have really broken him down and shown him that he's not as great as he thinks he is, that he's not as smart and manipulative as he thinks he is, that he's not as special as he thinks he is. Jack and Locke see right through Ben in a sense.

Jack can see when Ben is manipulating him and the situation, and Locke can sense that as well. When Ben tells Locke that he can't necessarily take him to their leader, to Jacob, Locke gets up to go and get someone who can take him to Jacob and Ben gets very aggressive and jealous, saying, "Why would Richard take you? He doesn't know where Jacob is, he doesn't talk to Jacob... " Locke can sense that Ben is lying (seeing that his hands are shaking...nice observation). When Ben and Locke return from seeing Jacob, Locke says, "There is no Jacob, Ben. I'm not gonna be taken in by the little show you put on last night. You're a fraud. And its time your people were told the truth." When Ben finds out that Locke can hear Jacob, that he is 'the chosen one', he has this uneasy and uncool way about him that he never really shows unless it's about Jacob and the island itself.

Jack besting him and Locke taking away what makes him 'special' to the island and to the group of Others infuriates Ben.

I actually didn't. I wasn't sure if I was getting too repetitive, but I can't help that every time I type her name, I just see red. I actually wish I had this angry chain saw face that is available on other sites. It's my favorite for Sarah.:mad:

SARAH IS THE DEVIL. I hate that woman. The sight of her makes my stomach churn. I want to torture that woman and make her as miserable as she made Jack. UGH. SARAH. IS. DEATH. :mad:


It's not that Jack ISN'T guilty of his actions, but there are a string of events that lead to that final confrontation between Jack and Christian. It was a slow build up, and for Jack to walk in and find out that his father is talking to strangers about him, when his own father won't talk to his son, must just kill Jack. "We know all about you, Jack." That's like Kryptonite for Jack. It just buckles him because Jack knows (or believes he knows) exactly what his father thinks of him, and for Jack, now everyone in the room knows how useless and worthless his father thinks he is. It's a humiliating moment for Jack, even if Christian shared nothing but good things about Jack with the group. The point is that Christian shows OTHER people one side of his personality, and he shows Jack a very different side. How am I suppose to blame all of Jack's reactions to his father solely on him? Yes, ultimately, Jack is responsible for HIS actions, and he must be held accountable. He chose to attack his father, but Christian could easily have deflected that anger before it spiraled out of control. He chose not to do so. In fact, he fed it. It's really sad. If you think about it, Christian shares his feelings with Sarah :mad:, with his AA group, and even with Sawyer - but never with Jack. He took his feelings, his love, and his pride in his son to his grave, and that's just sad.

I agree with all of this. Jack's rage towards Christian is the result of years of lies, manipulation and just complete lack of real and honest emotion. The fact that Jack is being talked about behind his back by his father who never speaks directly to him (more like down to him) must have snapped something within Jack. It must have made him feel even more worthless, dealing with the fact that his father would rather talk to a room full of recovering alcoholics, of strangers, than his own son. When Jack finds out that he's the point of discussion, he says, "What did you tell them about me, dad? That your son never really had it -- not like the old man. I didn't have the will to make it work? My life, my job, my marriage. What did you tell them about my marriage, dad?!! You want to know how he manages his marriage? A bottle of scotch every night before dinner." Jack has obviously been burned badly and repeatedly by his father and it was an accumulation of these things that made Jack blow his top. He mentioned the fact that Christian feels he doesn't have what it takes, his job, his marriage, his life in general. Jack has taken Christian's crap for years and nothing real came out of any of those hardships. Nothing.

We all know how Christian really feels about Jack. He told Sawyer in "Outlaws", "Right now, he thinks that I hate him. He thinks I feel betrayed by him. But what I really feel is gratitude, and pride because of what he did to me." Even then, Christian didn't have the guts, the courage to pick up the phone in that bar and tell Jack that he loves him and that he's proud of the man that he is, instead he confides in a total stranger (Sawyer), letting Jack think that he hates him, letting Jack go on believing that his father didn't respect him, didn't think he was a great surgeon, better yet, a great man. Christian's excuse for not telling Jack all these great things about himself is, "because I am weak..." (if you ask me, Christian is the one who doesn't have what it takes...). Jack is responsible for his actions, yes, for lunging at his father, but his father never steps up to correct Jack's thinking, he never rectifies the situation in the way a loving and caring father should. Jack asks and badgers Christian about sleeping with his wife and all Christian says is, "Let it go son." What kind of an answer is that? Why can't Christian just come out and say, "I'm not sleeping with Sarah son. I'm your father, I love you, I would never do that to you"? Why can't he, for once, console Jack instead of making him think that it's all in his head, perpetuating the doubt, screwing with him? Christian died a man that let his son live with the burden of his guilt and with the mindset that his father was ashamed and appalled by him, that he hated him and it makes me want to cry when I think of it. It's just unfortunate.


Erica

Kate showing up definitely shifted the power from Jack to Ben and the Others. Knowing that Kate was safe on the beach gave Jack some sense of control over something, but seeing that she completely defied his wishes and went after him anyway, got Jack worried and uneasy. She was right back in the line of fire and Jack was completely helpless against it. He couldn't do a thing because he too was a prisoner, he wasn't handcuffed or gagged, but he was a prisoner who was watched and observed day in and day out, but he was a prisoner that served a purpose for Ben.

Agreed. The minute Kate showed up at the house, even though I thought it was great of her to risk her life for him, it also rendered Jack helpless again. Not to say that Jack was probably not helpless before, but as you know, it's much easier to face adversity when it's just you taking the risks. However, when someone you love is ALSO being held prisoner, that person becomes a weapon to be used against you.

Jack did take grief about leaving Kate and Sayid there alone with them, and he expressed that Ben keeping his friends would greatly affect him leaving on the sub. Jack said, "I need you to let my friends go after I'm gone..." Ben says, "And if I said no would that stop you from leaving?" and Jack says, "Of course it would". Now Locke didn't really seem to care what they did to Kate. He said that he knew about her, the things that she's done in her past and his last words are "Good luck..." Wow Locke, thanks for the help. :rolleyes: :biggrin: That's funny, Erica.

We all know how Christian really feels about Jack. He told Sawyer in "Outlaws", "Right now, he thinks that I hate him. He thinks I feel betrayed by him. But what I really feel is gratitude, and pride because of what he did to me." Even then, Christian didn't have the guts, the courage to pick up the phone in that bar and tell Jack that he loves him and that he's proud of the man that he is, instead he confides in a total stranger (Sawyer), letting Jack think that he hates him, letting Jack go on believing that his father didn't respect him, didn't think he was a great surgeon, better yet, a great man. Christian's excuse for not telling Jack all these great things about himself is, "because I am weak..." (if you ask me, Christian is the one who doesn't have what it takes...). Jack is responsible for his actions, yes, for lunging at his father, but his father never steps up to correct Jack's thinking, he never rectifies the situation in the way a loving and caring father should. Jack asks and badgers Christian about sleeping with his wife and all Christian says is, "Let it go son." What kind of an answer is that? Why can't Christian just come out and say, "I'm not sleeping with Sarah son. I'm your father, I love you, I would never do that to you"? Why can't he, for once, console Jack instead of making him think that it's all in his head, perpetuating the doubt, screwing with him? Christian died a man that let his son live with the burden of his guilt and with the mindset that his father was ashamed and appalled by him, that he hated him and it makes me want to cry when I think of it. It's just unfortunate.
EricaVery well said! The bolded part is the point that is my biggest problem with Christian, and why I hold him partly responsible for the events in ATOTC. His actions in that episode can't be ignored, imho. You summarized it well.

I was wondering, what do we Foxhussies think about our dear doctor's father? Sure, he was using Jack in ATBCHDI, but he was looking out for himself, you know? AND John Terry is awesome. And sexy. And he made our sexy doc a reality!

Christian is a fantastic character, IMO. I love the crap out of him.
Remus, look what you started! Four pages later we're still rambling on! :biggrin:

I think Christian loves Jack (I also think he's still alive - psst, don't tell Claudia...) but I think he's torn. On one hand, I genuinely believe that Christian is trying to help Jack in his own internal struggles. But, there is a part of Christian that I believe is jealous as hell of Jack because he thinks Jack is a better man than he could ever be. Every parent wants their kid to do better than him and there must be a lot of love and pride when that happens. But what if your kid really is better than you? How do you feel about that? Does parenthood erase competitiveness? Classic Oedipal - kill your father, marry your mother stuff.
I wanted to touch on this too - The Hunting Party flashback brings that issue to the forefront, when the elder Busoni says to Christian: "I didn't come here for you, I came here for your son." (So did the lovely Gabriella, but that's a chapter cut short.) Christian was sort of taken aback but then deferred to Jack who took up the challenge. So professionally, Christian didn't openly show jealousy but being the way he was, he took it out on Jack in other devious ways.

Do you mean that he felt weak to admit he had an alcohol problem? If so, then I can see what you're trying to say. Maybe he didn't want to verbalize to Jack his weakness for alcohol, but then again, Jack is aware of his father's alcoholism.

That doesn't really matter if you're Christian and the weakness is exactly what I meant. I think Christian admires what he sees in his son, all the things he's not capable of finding within himself for some reason, but look at all his posturing about how he has what it takes (to fail, as TSTID so eloquently explained it), he can handle it, doesn't need Jack and some anonymous nurse to rescue him, etc. That's not a man who would easily admit to his son that he's weak and knows he has a problem. It's such a strong image that Christian projects on Jack that in WR he snaps at the hotel clerk guy for suggesting his dad's a pathetic drunk ("My father is a chief of surgery!") even though he's well aware of it.

All the things all of you have mentioned about what a normal, caring parent should have done... I know what you mean, but this relationship is everything but normal. Like I said, I often have a great deal of sympathy for Christian, just not so much in ATBCHDI.

On a side note: Did you guys catch the new ABC promos for their shows? Guess who is shown front and center for Lost? Go ahead, take a guess. ;)

Yay! Madison finally gets the recognition she deserves and Vincent is revealed as the REAL hero of the show.

Can I play?

We don't need to ask permission, we're the ones with boom sticks, remember? :biggrin:

Call me what you want, but I don't think his "stalking" of Sarah was all that reprehensible. Wrong, yes, but not criminal and pretty tame on the scale when compared to other Losties.

I didn't find it so much reprehensible when it comes to Sarah (because there was never a moment when he was ever violent or threatening like you said), I just found it unhealthy for Jack and thus plain wrong.

That's a really interesting question. I think Tom had found a new best friend but it didn't extend to any loyalty to the other Losties.

No, definitely not. To me, it seemed like both Tom and Alex watched Jack with a mixture of fascination and awe, like watching a caged animal at the zoo.



Jack besting him and Locke taking away what makes him 'special' to the island and to the group of Others infuriates Ben.

Oh, he's becoming a twitchy little dictator. Nice observations on him being hit from both sides.

I wanted to touch on this too - The Hunting Party flashback brings that issue to the forefront, when the elder Busoni says to Christian: "I didn't come here for you, I came here for your son." (So did the lovely Gabriella, but that's a chapter cut short.) Christian was sort of taken aback.

So was Jack. He has this cute little shocked look on his face. GAH! I will NOT skip ahead and make photoessay dedicated to that episode... must. be. patient. But there's SO much pretty in it, it's almost irresistible. :thud:

For now, I'm on WTCMB and I can't believe how many things I'd forgotten about this episode.

Sayid and Jack's conversation about math equations and tides is one of them.

SAYID: Everything is getting washed out to sea. This can't be normal. The tide shifting so suddenly, rising in so short a time.
JACK: There's a lot not normal around here.

He also tries to guilty Sayid into getting help from Danielle to find Claire and doesn't want to accept that he's supposed to just give up. :71:

I haven't really given it that much thought before, but Jack's been surrounded by a lot of funerals, coffins, graves, etc. on and now off the island. In this episode, we see him walk away from Kate after they dug up the Marshal... which for some reason makes me wonder... did she re-bury him by herself? What happened to poor Ed's body? :eek2: (It's late and I've been away from the internet for too long. Randomness is bound to happen. :biggrin: )

I haven't really given it that much thought before, but Jack's been surrounded by a lot of funerals, coffins, graves, etc. on and now off the island. In this episode, we see him walk away from Kate after they dug up the Marshal... which for some reason makes me wonder... did she re-bury him by herself? What happened to poor Ed's body? :eek2: (It's late and I've been away from the internet for too long. Randomness is bound to happen. :biggrin: )

I hadn't really thought about that either - just watching it again I wouldn't like to say who re-buried the Marshall. Should be Kate really, under the circumstances.
You notice that Jack does a lot of walking away from people in that epi. When Kate finally gets her wee plane back and is sitting bawling he walks away from her again. Almost like he's not sure what to do with the information she has just given him...the "It belonged to the man I killed..."conversation. He knew she had killed someone but to finally hear it from her lips seems to shock him all over again.
And then the when he walks by her while she's alone by the fire and looks back at her...the look on his face....boy needs a hug.;)

Not to change the subject, but having caught up with my viewing (I even may be ahead...I just finished "Numbers" not ten minutes ago), I feel the need to catch up reviewing. I had a lovely explication of "Confidence Man" done up not once, but twice, and both were poofed, very unexpectedly. I hear you all crying with grief...or maybe joy...I can't tell. It's as if it wasn't meant to happen. But I'm not going to be stopped, dammit. Here, short, sweet, and severely truncated, are my

Thoughts on "Confidence Man."

Likes.

Here is a still of Jack's fine butt (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-92.html) upstaging Sayid's very important discussion of somebutt...THING!!!!! Something.

"Waahmysisterwithbenefitsisallwheezyandsawyerjustbe atmeuuuuuuuup!" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-131.html)Grip that big manly arm, Boone, you shameless hussy!

Nosage (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-153.html)! Wonderful nosage! And all leading to this splendid reaction shot (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-159.html), which, in turn, leads to Jack ripping his arm out of its socket (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-367.html)playing Whack-a-Hick (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-374.html). It's all very special.

"Hey everyone, look at me! I am in the middle of everything all the time, like the spunky creature that I am!" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-191.html)
"Um...go away, we are talking about sports." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-192.html)
"Yes, and cars. No girls allowed. Get lost." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-193.html)

Princess Shannon's (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-448.html)asthma attack ensures that she keeps her mouth shut all through the episode, thus sparing us from hearing about whatever stupid thing is on her mind AND gives us a precious Dr. Jack Jedi Moment (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-449.html)(tm).

If you wake up to this (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-492.html), the next thing that happens will be bad. (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-550.html)

Put your hands together for Sun, and be grateful that Korean art history majors have to be well-versed in the ways of alternative medicine (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-726.html)to receive their degree. (Oh, and there's no way a California boy would need to sniff a eucalyptus to recognize it and its properties. They're weeds here. Just an excuse for gratuitous handporn (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-849.html) if you ask me.)

That's the problem with having even the little tatters of a conscience. It pops up at the most inopportune moments (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-769.html).

"My highly situtational sense of guilt for the atrocities I have committed has cropped up again. I'll walk it off and be back in a few (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-908.html)." I love Sayid when he is acting all tormented. He is so very unconvincing.

Dislikes.

"The Birth of a Hillbilly" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-31.html) by Billy Bob Botticelli.

Even when the hatch is opened and revealed as containing all the comforts of home, Sawyer does not use conditioner. Bad hair. Bad! (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-71.html)

"This unusually well-preserved letter is a somewhat trite symbol representing me (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-298.html). Please spend an inordinately long time reading it, very slowly so everyone will know where my emotional problems originate from."

And now, a little something for those pining for the glory that was a young Don Johnson (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-398.html)... <crickets> <more crickets>

When you respond to an exortionist's request for a kiss like this (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-661.html), you lose the right for me to ever have a smidge of respect for you ever again.

"Here is some invisible peanut butter (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-874.html)for you."
"Chunky or smooth?" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-876.html)
"Neither...cloying." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-885.html)
"How winsome we both are!" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-873.html)

TSTID

*trundles up the hill three hours late* I feel like Sullivan, finding out everyone's having a great time at a golf game. Can I play?

At that point he shouts "Don't hurt her!" Much has been made by some parties of how brutal it was of Jack to leave Kate handcuffed after he and Kate were allowed to meet in the pool room. Even though he didn't have handcuffs on, he was just as much a prisoner, as you illustrated above, Maxum. His next stop was to talk to Ben and get his word to let Kate and Sayid go free (he didn't know about Locke). He did everything he could, IMO, while still holding on to the plan to leave the island in order to return with rescue for all of the losties.




workingmom - I knew there was reason I liked you so much. I completely agree with your entire post and responses especially where Jack is concerned.

I don't understand the comments either about "how brutal it was for Jack to just leave Kate handcuffed in the poolroom.....etc". He would have NEVER left her if he didn't think he had a good plan to rescue her. And he was still just as much a prisoner as she was, not to mention that he had made sure she would be set free. That particular example of Jack really bothers me because that is not what Jack is about.......rescuing himself and forgetting about anyone else. The whole time he's been on the island he has been about the entire group and what he can do to help ALL OF THEM. What a selfish, contrilling,jerk!!!;)

Well, I need to say good-bye for now. I am off with my two boys and we are going to Chicago for a week. Does anyone of you live there? I have never been so I am quite excited.

I will miss you all - just when the conversation was really getting good too. I hope to find a computer somewhere up there to check in.

Take care everyone!!

Daphne
(DocLover)

He didn't. Why? Not only did Christian NOT answer Jack's questions, but he fed Jack's assumptions like a hungry shark.

He did answer, in his Christian-like manner. If that's me, I'd have picked up that that was a "no," and I barely know Christian at all. Just like I would have picked up that Christian very much was advising Jack against marrying Sarah in "Do No Harm." But Jack doesn't because the nuance detector in his brain was never installed in the factory, or the lab, or wherever he was created. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Christian should just say what he means (and mean what he says), he undoubtedly knows his son's quirks. But he doesn't. No one on the show does. That's why, when Desmond very directly tells Claire in Par Avion what the deal is with his visions, we all went "yay! finally!" :biggrin:

Jack and Christian's inability to really commulnicate meaningfully is a great sadness in their relationship. One gets the feeling that they are both adrift and could save each other, but neither understands the SOS signals the other is sending out.

Yes, Jack completely lost it and attacked his father, and although I agree that a younger man should never attack an older man, I can also see understand how Jack snapped. This whole room of strangers knows intimate details of Jack's life. Yes, that's a big part of AA, but what gets Jack's goat is that his own father wouldn't open up to HIM about anything, but he would tell a roomful of strangers. It's another knife to Jack. Another deception.

I can actually understand the stalking and following of his wife, the creepy calling of all the people on her bill, the accusations of his father cheating with his wife, and even the implied falloff of his work performance. I cannot understand the attack of an older man in a public place. That's scary. It's an AA meeting, Jack. Naturally they're gonna know about you. Deal. I don't blame them for calling the cops.

The thing no one has talked about here, is that clearly no charges are pressed, and that just as clearly Christian must smooth over things and enable Jack to continue to work at the hospital as chief resident, even after what has happened. Maybe arranges for some time off and things to blow over by sending him on a little vacation to Thailand or something. :biggrin:

I agree with you that assault on an older man is shameful, but I also know that Christian played a part.

Yeah, those three little words at the end were so heartbreaking because we saw the struggle behind them. Don't get me wrong, TSTID, I know that Jack is not perfect and is capable of being an ***. I just don't feel that what happened in ATOTC was ALL Jack's fault. Christian and Sarah played a part in all of it, and they too have to take responsibility for how things played out.

Indeed, direct parts. Just as Jack plays a direct part in his father's death. Or just as Jack's perhaps not being a particularly good husband plays a direct part in the dissolution of his marriage. There's lots of triggers and precipitating incidents for any such event in life. It's all tied up in an unworkable knot. These kinds of life events always are.

I guess you and I don't agree on this point at all,

I see common ground there. And in the end, it's not really all that material to appreciating Jack's story, which is so well-written that people respond to it as if it's a real-life incident instead of a story on television! :biggrin: Which says something about how awesome the character is, yes?

TSTID

I have to confess that there had been moments when I was really angry with Jack but selfish is the last word that I would ever use for him.

I hadn't really thought about that either - just watching it again I wouldn't like to say who re-buried the Marshall. Should be Kate really, under the circumstances.

Either that, or Ed ended up as birdfood.

You notice that Jack does a lot of walking away from people in that epi. When Kate finally gets her wee plane back and is sitting bawling he walks away from her again. Almost like he's not sure what to do with the information she has just given him...the "It belonged to the man I killed..."conversation. He knew she had killed someone but to finally hear it from her lips seems to shock him all over again.
And then the when he walks by her while she's alone by the fire and looks back at her...the look on his face....boy needs a hug.;)

Oh, he's in the middle of a guilt trip again and you're spot on re: not knowing what to do with the information. I don't think he knew she killed somebody, although since the Marshal kept on droning about how dangerous Kate was and she was handcuffed on the plane, I think he figured out she wasn't arrested for identitiy theft. The very next episode we see him apologize in his very Jack way with the guava seeds. Which is lovely of him, but in hindsight reminds me of him begging Sarah to come back to him even though she cheated on him and walked away acting as if she had nothing to do with it and is a poor victim.

One of those things I missed is that Sayid starts to make an effort to translate Danielle's maps only after Jack guilties him into helping to find Claire while hauling luggage from the rapidly erroding beach:

SAYID: Some things are better left untranslated.
JACK: Tell him that. (Shot of emo Charlie)

I think Sayid struggles with the whispers he heard and tries to rationalize the great deal of "not normal" on the island much like Jack. I hadn't realized before just how many little scenes they've shared where they're the Alpha Team, organizing things, working and schemming together.

This episode marks the debut of the dorky stripped shirt (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-60-34.html) that has endeared itself to me because just like Jack, it's all about hard work and inner beauty, so back off, haterz! :p I love the scene where he's so utterly confuzzled (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-60-36.html)by Sun but eventually manages to communicate his admiration for her herbalist skills with a Hurely-like "OK, cool..." that for some reason I find very adorable (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-60-38.html). :wub: So does Sun who once more proves what an unabashed hussy (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/hussies/thecase504.jpg)she is.

I had a lovely explication of "Confidence Man" done up not once, but twice, and both were poofed, very unexpectedly. I hear you all crying with grief...or maybe joy...I can't tell. It's as if it wasn't meant to happen. But I'm not going to be stopped, dammit. Here, short, sweet, and severely truncated, are my

Thoughts on "Confidence Man."

Oh, we're not going to be discouraged by such technical glitches, are we?


Here is a still of Jack's fine butt (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-92.html) upstaging Sayid's very important discussion of somebutt...THING!!!!! Something.


Sayid's in that shot? Huh.

"Waahmysisterwithbenefitsisallwheezyandsawyerjustbe atmeuuuuuuuup!" Grip that big manly arm, Boone, you shameless hussy!

*hates Boone out of jealousy for a second because... mmm... looks very squishable* Oh, but I'm proud of the boy. :clapping:

Princess Shannon's (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-448.html)asthma attack ensures that she keeps her mouth shut all through the episode, thus sparing us from hearing about whatever stupid thing is on her mind AND gives us a (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-448.html) precious Dr. Jack Jedi Moment (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-449.html)(tm). (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-448.html)

I don't know if you agree, but I'd say Jack and his nose share this Jedi Moment and should both get credit because it's rather obvious that Shannon found a fixed point on it and only then, mesmerized by the beauty of it, began breathing through her own cute nose as if in a trance. :ntworthy:


(Oh, and there's no way a California boy would need to sniff a eucalyptus to recognize it and its properties. They're weeds here. Just an excuse for gratuitous handporn (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-849.html) if you ask me.)


Not like we're complaining...


"The Birth of a Hillbilly" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-31.html) by Billy Bob Botticelli.


Oh, boy, this Billy Bob fellow is a keeper, if only for his name.


And now, a little something for those pining for the glory that was a young Don Johnson (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-398.html)... <crickets> <more crickets>

Pfft... Don Johnson was hotttt stuff! :24:

"Here is some invisible peanut butter (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-874.html)for you."
"Chunky or smooth?" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-876.html)
"Neither...cloying." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-885.html)
"How winsome we both are!" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-873.html)



I think their sharing a cup of tea in a lovely Commonwealth bonding moment (in a later episode after Claire returns... don't remember which) and Charlie's disdain at the damn yanks was much more genuinely endearing. I really liked that for some reason.

Ok,

So I didn't get a chance to do a wonderful pic review like TSTID of WTCMB, but I do have a favorite Jack screencap from that episode that just speaks "Jack" to me.

It's Jack's I've-caused-her-pain, I'm confused, how-do-I-fix-this-look (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/composition/?action=view&current=jackwtcmb.jpg).

Pretty soon that sexy neck is going to have a key dangling around it. Me wants to be the key! :smile:


I Choose Jack!

shoe

Just because someone didn't actually pull the trigger doesn't mean they didn't help load the gun.
.

Agreed 100%. I think Christian not only helped provide the ammo, he also provided the gun.

Yeah, but I don't think weakness had anything to do with it. Christian just DIDN'T want to tell Jack or answer his questions. Do you mean that he felt weak to admit he had an alcohol problem? If so, then I can see what you're trying to say. Maybe he didn't want to verbalize to Jack his weakness for alcohol, but then again, Jack is aware of his father's alcoholism. If anything, I think Jack would have felt some pride or connection to his father for trying and admitting his weakness.

I also think that Christian can quite reasonably assume that he might not get the most sympathetic response from Jack on the issue. Their relationship may most charitably be described as rocky, and even the occasional sincere and well-intended advice by Christian elicits defensiveness in Jack. Once bitten...you know the adage. And Jack has been bitten more than once.

I just don't understand Christian. He'll confess his weaknesses and his deepest feelings to a room full of strangers and to Sarah, but not to Jack.

Oh, it's much easier to talk to strangers in whom you have no vested interest, and who carry no emotional baggage towards you than to someone you've effed with emotionally for 40 years, and who you love and have wounded deeply and repeatedly failed in life.

This may explain why Jack doesn't open up to anyone either.

Yeah, Jack has trust issues. Can anyone blame him? Would you trust anyone if you were him?

Call me what you want, but I don't think his "stalking" of Sarah was all that reprehensible. Wrong, yes, but not criminal and pretty tame on the scale when compared to other Losties.

I think that when assessing Jack's actions, it's best not to compare him to inveterate scumbags like Sawyer, fugitive nutters like Kate, lifetime losers with cosmic "kick me" signs on their behinds like Locke, seemingly decent people with disturbing hobbies like Sayid, or some of the other assorted trust fund kids (Boone) or slackers (Shannon, Claire, Charlie), etc. Jack's made of infinitely better stuff, and thus the bar is a little higher. So when a guy of Jack's quality stoops to that kind of stuff...it's not a good thing, and it's very, very noteworthy because, frankly, it's way, way beneath him. Is it the same as pouring acid on some innocent woman's hands, or conning people out of their life savings? No, but then Jack isn't Sayid or Sawyer either. So why compare them?

Did he threaten her with violence or ever use violence on her? No. Did he harrass her on the phone or confront her publicly?

No. Isn't him sitting out there spying on her troubling enough? This is good, decent, kind, upstanding Jack we're talking about. Isn't this deviation from his normal behavior constitute enough of a red flag to find it troubling? How would you feel if it was you on the other end of that expression he shoots Sarah. I sure wouldn't. It's shown to us as a measure of how far he is slipping and how fast. As it should be, because it's a very disturbing change from the norm.

He sat in his car and watched her place of work, and went thru their joint cell phone records and called to see who was on the other end. I know responsible parents who do the same with their kids who have problems at the suggestion of "experts".

He was polite and civil to her at their every encounter, in the attorney's office and in the police station.

I think his change in mood and manner in the attorney's office is incredibly swift, and goes from "gee you look pretty" to "I'll give you anything just tell me his name." He's not being merely civil there. There's a desperate obsessiveness there and a certain lack of balance. Foxy plays it beautifully. I love to watch that scene over and over for the change that comes over his face as she talks on the phone. It's really quite extraordinary. I think just seeing that as a civil exchange doesn't touch on what the real meaning of his exchange with Sarah means.

And the police station...he'd sure as hell better be civil to her. She's come to bail his sorry butt out of jail.

The behavior of the AA facilitator woman is deplorable too - taunting Jack "yes, we know all about you, Jack." I don't think that's in the AA handbook either.

Now there was the person Jack should have clocked! :biggrin:

TSTID

I think that when assessing Jack's actions, it's best not to compare him to inveterate scumbags like Sawyer, fugitive nutters like Kate, lifetime losers with cosmic "kick me" signs on their behinds like Locke, seemingly decent people with disturbing hobbies like Sayid, or some of the other assorted trust fund kids (Boone) or slackers (Shannon, Claire, Charlie), etc. Jack's made of infinitely better stuff, and thus the bar is a little higher.

Pfft, you're just letting fame and adoration get to your head. :p

Ignore me, I'm just so tired I could fall asleep at my desk and I still have some six hours to go.

Yasy... WHERE'S MY PICSPAM??? :mad:

Pfft, you're just letting fame and adoration get to your head. :p

Absolutely. They had to remove the fancy drop ceiling from my office, well, the parts that hadn't already rotted and fallen down by themselves, because my head is so big now it won't fit.

But I also want the best for my honey, Jack. While I recognize that people may be victims of poor parenting or other life circumstances nothing gets my goat like the cult of victimhood, and I ain't having my honeysweetie defined as anything but a self-determining grown up hottie with the ability to both fall and pick himself up on his own. (Like you, it's for this very reason that I do not wish the flash-forward to be 'erased' -- I want to see Jack stand back up like a man, find his courage again, and do what he does best: the right thing).

And, as I have said elsewhere, I fully expect a special steaming bronzed goose turd presented to me at the next JACademy Awards ceremony. You'll recognize me. I'll be dressed like this (http://allergyasthma.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/bjork-s-swan-dress-2.jpg). :eek2: :biggrin:

TSTID

Pfft, you're just letting fame and adoration get to your head. :p

Ignore me, I'm just so tired I could fall asleep at my desk and I still have some six hours to go.

Yasy... WHERE'S MY PICSPAM??? :mad:

Don't yell! jeez. go to my lj :biggrin:

Absolutely. They had to remove the fancy drop ceiling from my office, well, the parts that hadn't already rotted and fallen down by themselves, because my head is so big now it won't fit.

Ah, the trappings of superficial celebrity! The high is so high and addictive, it's harder to kick than Oxy.


But I also want the best for my honey, Jack. While I recognize that people may be victims of poor parenting or other life circumstances nothing gets my goat like the cult of victimhood, and I ain't having my honeysweetie defined as anything but a self-determining grown up hottie with the ability to both fall and pick himself up on his own. (Like you, it's for this very reason that I do not wish the flash-forward to be 'erased' -- I want to see Jack stand back up like a man, find his courage again, and do what he does best: the right thing).


Amen. I think all he needs is one glimmer of hope that he can do it. What we saw in the finale was a pretty hopeless attempt based on wishing to crash back on the island. He needs something more tangible and as soon as he's given an out, he'll grab it and use his stubborness to go from there. (And it's been confirmed by the writers they've got quite a way to go after the FF.) If Charlie could detox in two weeks, so can Jack. At the moment he lacks motivation, but as soon as he's given a way, he'll come up with the will to be able to function enough to go back.

You'll recognize me. I'll be dressed like this (http://allergyasthma.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/bjork-s-swan-dress-2.jpg). :eek2: :biggrin:

I must remember to keep my shotgun pointing at the ground, lest we have a tragic friendly fire incident.

Don't yell! jeez. go to my lj :biggrin:

Grrr... I can't. It's blocked on this computer! (They can't take my Fuselage away, silly, silly employers!) Just give me a taste of it here.
100%
Guys... I'm not kidding...

I can't even keep my eyes open anymore. Help!

If you're out there... give me some eyecandy to keep me awake.

Random Picspam Monday.

C'mon... do it for momma.

Guys... I'm not kidding...

I can't even keep my eyes open anymore. Help!

If you're out there... give me some eyecandy to keep me awake.

Random Picspam Monday.

C'mon... do it for momma.

Oh, boy it is serious! This is what you get for staying up till 4am :p Dr. Jack can help you stay up (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/Teh%20Smile/Kimmel_006.jpg)
And if you get really really sleepy, he'll take you for a ride to get you all rejuvenated (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/Teh%20Smile/whoa.jpg) ;)

4:35 am if you want to get technical on me.

And thank you. I can see you all laughing at me like that, but it's OK...

Ah, the trappings of superficial celebrity! The high is so high and addictive, it's harder to kick than Oxy.

What? I'm not high. I'm totally fine (http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/580971/2/istockphoto_580971_crash_landing.jpg). OK, you know what? You call my Mother (http://eclipse.rutgers.edu/goose/about/files/mother_goose7.jpg)down here right now. And if she's more blitzed off her tailfeathers than me, you can fire me!

Amen. I think all he needs is one glimmer of hope that he can do it. What we saw in the finale was a pretty hopeless attempt based on wishing to crash back on the island.

In addition to being a pill-popping boozehound, Future Jack is a leeeeetle bit crazy. As you say, lack of hope is the problem. There's no hope of his undoing whatever it is he thinks he's done and the consequences have been so dire, he's become unhinged by guilt and hopelessness. But you called it: all he needs is a wee bit of hope and his innate strength of character will assert itself, and the light inside will blaze forth again. I am incredibly excited about Season 4.

(And it's been confirmed by the writers they've got quite a way to go after the FF.)

Was this ever in question? I just assumed that TTLG ends with a new beginning. Why ever would they show us the end of a show that has three more year to run? :confused:

If Charlie could detox in two weeks, so can Jack. At the moment he lacks motivation, but as soon as he's given a way, he'll come up with the will to be able to function enough to go back.

Yeah, he just needs some aspirin and a purpose. He can start by doing the dishes and cleaning up his apartment. By the way, I thought his overflowing sink was a wonderful bit of shorthand to describe his mental state. This is a guy who washes dishes instead of going to a shrink, after all.

I must remember to keep my shotgun pointing at the ground, lest we have a tragic friendly fire incident.

No shooting until after the presentation of the Bronze Turd. That way I can die happy.

TSTID

I think that when assessing Jack's actions, it's best not to compare him to inveterate scumbags like Sawyer, fugitive nutters like Kate, lifetime losers with cosmic "kick me" signs on their behinds like Locke, seemingly decent people with disturbing hobbies like Sayid, or some of the other assorted trust fund kids (Boone) or slackers (Shannon, Claire, Charlie), etc. Jack's made of infinitely better stuff, and thus the bar is a little higher. So when a guy of Jack's quality stoops to that kind of stuff...it's not a good thing, and it's very, very noteworthy because, frankly, it's way, way beneath him. Is it the same as pouring acid on some innocent woman's hands, or conning people out of their life savings? No, but then Jack isn't Sayid or Sawyer either. So why compare them? I know, I know, but there's the double standard again - this time being applied for a loftier reason. You expect more from Jack, and you usually get it. I sound like my high school principal that day I was caught ditching school. I got 7 detentions; the screwup kids who ditched all the time got one.

No. Isn't him sitting out there spying on her troubling enough? This is good, decent, kind, upstanding Jack we're talking about. Isn't this deviation from his normal behavior constitute enough of a red flag to find it troubling? How would you feel if it was you on the other end of that expression he shoots Sarah. I sure wouldn't. It's shown to us as a measure of how far he is slipping and how fast. As it should be, because it's a very disturbing change from the norm. Meh. I've seen much worse. But you're right, it is a good illustration of what he's going through.

I think his change in mood and manner in the attorney's office is incredibly swift, and goes from "gee you look pretty" to "I'll give you anything just tell me his name." He's not being merely civil there. There's a desperate obsessiveness there and a certain lack of balance. Foxy plays it beautifully. I love to watch that scene over and over for the change that comes over his face as she talks on the phone. It's really quite extraordinary. I think just seeing that as a civil exchange doesn't touch on what the real meaning of his exchange with Sarah means.

And the police station...he'd sure as hell better be civil to her. She's come to bail his sorry butt out of jail. I still say that any man, any person in that position deserves a certain minimum of information --an identity--about the person instrumental in the destruction of the marriage. Sarah decided to withhold this information to purposely goad Jack more and more. Divorce can be ugly.
OK, Maxum and I hereby appoint you honorary presenter of Sarah's :mad: point of view (since no one else will take it)



But I also want the best for my honey, Jack. While I recognize that people may be victims of poor parenting or other life circumstances nothing gets my goat like the cult of victimhood, and I ain't having my honeysweetie defined as anything but a self-determining grown up hottie with the ability to both fall and pick himself up on his own. (Like you, it's for this very reason that I do not wish the flash-forward to be 'erased' -- I want to see Jack stand back up like a man, find his courage again, and do what he does best: the right thing. Hear hear. Yes, everything's "wrong" in the flashforward, but I think it's part of the story and a point to move forward from - not a scene to be rewritten.

Guys... I'm not kidding...

I can't even keep my eyes open anymore. Help!

If you're out there... give me some eyecandy to keep me awake.

Random Picspam Monday.

C'mon... do it for momma.

Let me give this a shot...

Quick, name 20 things you like about this (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z66/wkgm/foxy44.jpg?t=1185825652).

And if you make puppy eyes (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z66/wkgm/Puppyaloeeyes.jpg?t=1185825748), they can't possibly droop shut.

4:35 am if you want to get technical on me.

And thank you. I can see you all laughing at me like that, but it's OK...
Laughing with you, sweetie. See, we can laugh at ourselves with ease. I feel sorry for those who don't understand what that is.


Yeah, he just needs some aspirin and a purpose. He can start by doing the dishes and cleaning up his apartment. By the way, I thought his overflowing sink was a wonderful bit of shorthand to describe his mental state. This is a guy who washes dishes instead of going to a shrink, after all.
That's right - that was a little easter egg for those who remember THP flashback in detail. Thanks for the reminder!

All the things all of you have mentioned about what a normal, caring parent should have done... I know what you mean, but this relationship is everything but normal. Like I said, I often have a great deal of sympathy for Christian, just not so much in ATBCHDI.

I have sympathy for Christian too. I just don't feel he deserves too much slack in this particular episode. He should have handled it much better, but as you so rightly pointed out, both these guys are so royally screwed up. (Love that about them.:biggrin:)

Yay! Madison finally gets the recognition she deserves and Vincent is revealed as the REAL hero of the show. :biggrin: You nut! I'll tell you, they picked nice "Jack" shots for those promos, although is there really a bad shot of Jack?

No, definitely not. To me, it seemed like both Tom and Alex watched Jack with a mixture of fascination and awe, like watching a caged animal at the zoo. Yes, they were both almost childlike in their curiosity about Jack. It's kind of scary that they never seemed to have witnessed self-sacrifice and honor before.

So was Jack. He has this cute little shocked look on his face. GAH! I will NOT skip ahead and make photoessay dedicated to that episode... must. be. patient. But there's SO much pretty in it, it's almost irresistible. :thud:I love that scene. He's practically looking behind him and then looking at Gabriella and her father going "Who me?"

Do you seriously need me to come find you before you will post some "pretty Jack pictures?" Help a girl out, will ya? :biggrin:

And now, a little something for those pining for the glory that was a young Don Johnson[/url]... <crickets> <more crickets>

Thank you! God, it's been bothering me who Sawyer reminded me of, and I can't believe I didn't put that together. Is it me or does Sawyer automatically look like a con artist in that suit with the slicked back hair? I mean, comon people! All the bells and whistles should have been going off like a slot machine in Vegas.

He did answer, in his Christian-like manner. If that's me, I'd have picked up that that was a "no," and I barely know Christian at all.

I didn't take it as a "no." Christian was being pretty smarmy about it, actually.

Jack and Christian's inability to really commulnicate meaningfully is a great sadness in their relationship. One gets the feeling that they are both adrift and could save each other, but neither understands the SOS signals the other is sending out. Well said. However, since Christian is the father and the man who is suppose to help nurture his son, the inability to communicate started with him. I think they both desperately want to connect on some level, but neither man knows the games rules, which is sad. There are no rules. Just talk to each other.

The thing no one has talked about here, is that clearly no charges are pressed, and that just as clearly Christian must smooth over things and enable Jack to continue to work at the hospital as chief resident, even after what has happened. Maybe arranges for some time off and things to blow over by sending him on a little vacation to Thailand or something. :biggrin: I don't think Christian needed to smooth anything over because I don't think it got that far. More than likely, the woman at AA called the police for a disturbance, Jack was brought to the police station and was later bailed out. I'm not sure the hospital even found out about it. Who would report it? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't know if it would have reached the hospital in terms of jeopardizing Jack's standing as Chief Resident.

Indeed, direct parts. Just as Jack plays a direct part in his father's death. See, I don't see Jack playing a direct part in his father's death at all. Jack played a direct part in Christian losing his job certainly, but Christian's decision to drink himself to death is on him. I don't think Jack should shoulder that guilt at all, but of course, he does. I guess you could say it's six degrees of Christian's death. Steps led up to it, but Christian made those decisions to drink. Frankly, I think Christian was destined to die of an alcohol related death. He really didn't need much of a push to send him falling off the wagon.

Or just as Jack's perhaps not being a particularly good husband plays a direct part in the dissolution of his marriage. There's lots of triggers and precipitating incidents for any such event in life. It's all tied up in an unworkable knot. These kinds of life events always are. Very true.

I see common ground there. And in the end, it's not really all that material to appreciating Jack's story, which is so well-written that people respond to it as if it's a real-life incident instead of a story on television! :biggrin: Which says something about how awesome the character is, yes?

Abso-friggen-lutely!! He really is an incredible character.

I also think that Christian can quite reasonably assume that he might not get the most sympathetic response from Jack on the issue. Their relationship may most charitably be described as rocky, and even the occasional sincere and well-intended advice by Christian elicits defensiveness in Jack. Once bitten...you know the adage. And Jack has been bitten more than once. I'm not sure that Jack would not have been responsive to Christian. I think Jack was dying to make a connection with his father, and just waiting for any morsel or crumb that his father dropped. I mean, that's why Jack signed that paper because he believed that his father was finally reaching out to him. Granted, Jack would be VERY leery of any overtures from his father, but I also think he's like a drowning man desperate for life jacket. He'd grab it if it was tossed to him.

Oh, it's much easier to talk to strangers in whom you have no vested interest, and who carry no emotional baggage towards you than to someone you've effed with emotionally for 40 years, and who you love and have wounded deeply and repeatedly failed in life. That's a very valid point and makes complete sense, but for Jack, it's a bit humiliating that a roomful of people knows his personal business, which triggers the outrage he's been keeping on tap.

And the police station...he'd sure as hell better be civil to her. She's come to bail his sorry butt out of jail. Okay, I think I'll just back away from the table very slowly . . . .

But I can't!!!

Sarah :mad: should not have bailed him out of jail, not when she brings her lover with her in order to do it. What? She's incapable of going to the jail to pick up Jack on her own? Jack could have spent the night in jail. He's a big boy, and he certainly didn't need to be bailed out by Sarah:mad: and have her lover be thrown in Jack's face. Sarah :mad: went for one reason, well two actually. She wanted to bail Jack out of jail and let him know that it was his fault that Christian fell off the wagon, which it wasn't, and that "Look Jack, see my lover came with me, and he's everything you're not." If there was any compassion on her part at all, I really didn't see it. She came to twist the knife.

The last thing I believe Jack needs to be is civil towards Sarah. :mad:

I know, I know, but there's the double standard again - this time being applied for a loftier reason. You expect more from Jack, and you usually get it. I sound like my high school principal that day I was caught ditching school. I got 7 detentions; the screwup kids who ditched all the time got one.

It is true, though. The good ones ARE held to a higher standard because they are good people. It's unexpected when the good guys or gals fall from grace. We don't like it. We want our heroes steadfast on their lofty perches. Of course, they are as human as anyone else, and there are always people below them pushing on that post wishing them to fall.

OK, Maxum and I hereby appoint you honorary presenter of Sarah's :mad: point of view (since no one else will take it). "Your mission, TSTID, should you decide to accept it . . . . " :biggrin:

:biggrin: You nut!

;)

I'll tell you, they picked nice "Jack" shots for those promos

I'm almost tempted to watch TV this summer just to see that.


Do you seriously need me to come find you before you will post some "pretty Jack pictures?" Help a girl out, will ya? :biggrin:


There you go... (http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/The%20Hunting%20Party/)just browse the whole page and come back to us when the feeling of dizziness goes away.

"Your mission, TSTID, should you decide to accept it . . . . " :biggrin:

I have defended her in the past *ducks* so if I put my mind to it I might be able to do it again... when I'm more awake and present...


Quick, name 20 things you like about this (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z66/wkgm/foxy44.jpg?t=1185825652).

Hmm... give me a couple of minutes...

;)



I'm almost tempted to watch TV this summer just to see that.

They tend to be on a lot during the afternoon. I tape GH, and the promo is always on during 3-4pm (EST). Basically, the one shot is of Jack in his blue t-shirt looking over at Kate and telling her "Because I love you," and then Kate's reaction shot. The next shot in the series of clips is just Jack in that lovely blue t-shirt.


There you go... (http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/The%20Hunting%20Party/) just browse the whole page and come back to us when the feeling of dizziness goes away. Thank you! Don't worry, I'm sitting.


I have defended her in the past *ducks* so if I put my mind to it I might be able to do it again... when I'm more awake and present... [Rolls up sleeves, cracks knuckles, flexes fingers] I'm a-ready. :biggrin:

Let me give this a shot...

Quick, name 20 things you like about this (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z66/wkgm/foxy44.jpg?t=1185825652).

1. The tropical foliage in the background. You know it was a hot, humid day at the beach...

2. The way he's leaning on that fence.

3. The casual grip on said fence.

4. The color of his tshirt.

5. That ideal hair length (although I'm not fussy)

6. The stubble.

7. The fact that he wears something around his neck that's just perfect for grabbing purposes. (I'm short... I've learned to adapt quickly ;))

8. The fact that he's v. v. mad at me but he won't give me the satisfaction of slamming me into that fence.

9.... instead he just stares...

10. Which gives me the inspiration to name the other version of this picture... what it's named in my pb account. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)

11. That even his nose exudes a sort of aloof anger... (but then again, we all know what an amazing acting range The Schnozz posesess)

12. Every little crease in that tshirt.

13. His perpetually misbehaving underwear.

14. His tan.

15. His wrists and how almost unaturally beautiful they are.

16. His hand shoved in his pocket.

17. The little blotches of red on his inner arm... :drool:

18. The scar on his hairline.

19. That minuscule patch of naked skin... :thud:

20. The fact that it makes you, the one in charge of hosing us down and keeping an eye on our dignity go :thud:

I think 20 may be my favorite.

You're beaming with pride right now, aren't you?


[Rolls up sleeves, cracks knuckles, flexes fingers]

Well, maybe when we get to those episodes on the rewind and I'm better prepared for an intellectual exercise. :biggrin:

Well, maybe when we get to those episodes on the rewind and I'm better prepared for an intellectual exercise. :biggrin:

Understood. I'm not up for it right now either because she does tax my brain.

Great list of Foxy reasons in that picture. I love the look in his eyes.

1. The tropical foliage in the background. You know it was a hot, humid day at the beach...

2. The way he's leaning on that fence.

3. The casual grip on said fence.

4. The color of his tshirt.

5. That ideal hair length (although I'm not fussy)

6. The stubble.

7. The fact that he wears something around his neck that's just perfect for grabbing purpuses. (I'm short... I've learned to adapt quickly ;))

8. The fact that he's v. v. mad at me but he won't give me the satisfaction of slamming me into that fence.

9.... instead he just stares...

10. Which gives me the inspiration to name the other version of this picture... what it's named in my pb account. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)

11. That even his nose exudes a sort of aloof anger... (but then again, we all know what an amazing acting range The Schnozz posesess)

12. Every little crease in that tshirt.

13. His perpetually misbehaving underwear.

14. His tan.

15. His wrists and how almost unaturally beautiful they are.

16. His hand shoved in his pocket.

17. The little blotches of red on his inner arm... :drool:

18. The scar on his hairline.

19. That minuscule patch of naked skin... :thud:

20. The fact that it makes you, the one in charge of hosing us down and keeping an eye on our dignity go :thud:

I think 20 may be my favorite.

Claudia, you are just hilarious and all 20 are very true. That smoldering, 'I'm gonna take you where you stand' look that he has in that picture just makes me blush and with my dark complexion, you can definitely tell. :biggrin:

Erica

1. The tropical foliage in the background. You know it was a hot, humid day at the beach...

2. The way he's leaning on that fence.

3. The casual grip on said fence.

4. The color of his tshirt.

5. That ideal hair length (although I'm not fussy)

6. The stubble.

7. The fact that he wears something around his neck that's just perfect for grabbing purpuses. (I'm short... I've learned to adapt quickly ;))

8. The fact that he's v. v. mad at me but he won't give me the satisfaction of slamming me into that fence.

9.... instead he just stares...

10. Which gives me the inspiration to name the other version of this picture... what it's named in my pb account. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)

11. That even his nose exudes a sort of aloof anger... (but then again, we all know what an amazing acting range The Schnozz posesess)

12. Every little crease in that tshirt.

13. His perpetually misbehaving underwear.

14. His tan.

15. His wrists and how almost unaturally beautiful they are.

16. His hand shoved in his pocket.

17. The little blotches of red on his inner arm... :drool:

18. The scar on his hairline.

19. That minuscule patch of naked skin... :thud:

20. The fact that it makes you, the one in charge of hosing us down and keeping an eye on our dignity go :thud:

I think 20 may be my favorite.

You're beaming with pride right now, aren't you?




Well, maybe when we get to those episodes on the rewind and I'm better prepared for an intellectual exercise. :biggrin:

Clauds Darlin'

I thought it was bad in the 90 degree Atlanta heat until I looked at that picture and read your top 20. For the bonus of the porsche and free kiss with Foxy next time your in his presence, Name 10 more!!!

I Chose Mr. Sexy Himself!

shoe

Hello All,

I'd like to say thanks to Claudia for extending an invite to me to join your discussion. After reading through for a bit I'd love to call myself a fellow F.O.X.
I was going to gie that 20 things you like about this list a shot but I don't think I can do any better than Claudia has done.

TOP JOB THERE GIRL.

:) Yummy Mummy who wants to be Lost with Jack.

1. The tropical foliage in the background. You know it was a hot, humid day at the beach...

2. The way he's leaning on that fence.

3. The casual grip on said fence.

4. The color of his tshirt.

5. That ideal hair length (although I'm not fussy)

6. The stubble.

7. The fact that he wears something around his neck that's just perfect for grabbing purpuses. (I'm short... I've learned to adapt quickly ;))

8. The fact that he's v. v. mad at me but he won't give me the satisfaction of slamming me into that fence.

9.... instead he just stares...

10. Which gives me the inspiration to name the other version of this picture... what it's named in my pb account. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/0725257E0.jpg)

11. That even his nose exudes a sort of aloof anger... (but then again, we all know what an amazing acting range The Schnozz posesess)

12. Every little crease in that tshirt.

13. His perpetually misbehaving underwear.

14. His tan.

15. His wrists and how almost unaturally beautiful they are.

16. His hand shoved in his pocket.

17. The little blotches of red on his inner arm... :drool:

18. The scar on his hairline.

19. That minuscule patch of naked skin... :thud:

20. The fact that it makes you, the one in charge of hosing us down and keeping an eye on our dignity go :thud:

I think 20 may be my favorite.

You're beaming with pride right now, aren't you?

Mais oui! *beams* I do have my ulterior motives. :hypocrit: But it kept you awake, no?

Hello All,

I'd like to say thanks to Claudia for extending an invite to me to join your discussion. After reading through for a bit I'd love to call myself a fellow F.O.X.
I was going to gie that 20 things you like about this list a shot but I don't think I can do any better than Claudia has done.

TOP JOB THERE GIRL.

:) Yummy Mummy who wants to be Lost with Jack.
Welcome Lost with Jack to the F.O.X. Den. We're glad to have you here. :Welcome:

Claudia and everyone here in the Den are great.

Who wants to be Lost with Jack? That's a rhetorical question. :biggrin: Again, WELCOME!

I will try this also, without repeating all of the incredibly true things that
Clauds has pointed out for us. Ahem...

1 -3. The Holy Trinity of the Upper Body - the arms, pecs, and shoulders. They're effing indecent is what. And, to squee a bit more on the subject...

4. Just the right amount of hand and arm veinage. Too little, and the arm looks like a featureless piece of sausage. Too much and you're into flayed anatomical model territory. Foxy strikes the right balance. And speaking of the arm, I can't believe I'm saying this, but:

5. The tattoo. I am second to none in my dislike of tattoos, but here, the less offensive-to-the-eye color inner arm tat goes very nicely with the slightly edge air imparted by the rusty chain-link fence. And while we're on that arm:

6 - 8 The bicep action going on there is quite wonderful, as is the unusual placement of the arm in a backwards grip on the fence. And also note the leaf touching the right arm. It's scorched on the edges from all of the hotness!!!

9. His hairline. Nothing ruins a good buzz cut like a messy hairline. This is a lovely, cleanly defined hairline. I'd comment on that neato scar, but Clauds has covered it already. And right below that we've got:

10 - 12. The baleful, "Ask me about that green face goo and its five magical skin-saving properties again and I will do something to you" glare, combined with the relaxed pose creates an enchanting sense of mystery and tension in the photo that makes me want to ask him about the green face goo and take him up on the threat.

13 - 15. The fact that the bristling, feral energy of the photo includes the presence of a wedding ring and a necklace with a picture of his kids on it. Why is this hot? Hell if I know. I just know that it is.

16. The gray in the beard. I find this to be lethally attractive. And also the gray he's got in his hair, which is not apparent here. But...dayum.

17. The bit of neck that we can see.

18. The thumb sticking out of his pocket. Why not put the whole hand in the pocket like everyone else? Only he knows the answer to this fascinating question, and frankly I don't care, because it looks good the way it is! And while we're down there:

19. The fact that he's not wearing a belt but needs one.

20 And not only is his undewear showing, but the waistband says something on it. So, I blew up the photo and tried to read it but couldn't really make any sense of what was there. Then I realized that by obsessively working to read the waistband of a guy's underwear, I have probably catapulted myself into some higher realm of FoxHussydom than I have heretofore experienced. So that metaphysical breakthrough is my personal number 20.

TSTID

5. The tattoo. I am second to none in my dislike of tattoos, but here, the less offensive-to-the-eye color inner arm tat goes very nicely with the slightly edge air imparted by the rusty chain-link fence. And while we're on that arm:


I'm so with you here, not really usually a big fan of tattoo's, I find this bad boy mark on Matthew to be very sexy. It says to me though Matthew would treat a woman like the refined clean cut gentleman he is, as a lover he would have a very raw passion
100%
Who wants to be Lost with Jack? That's a rhetorical question. :biggrin: Again, WELCOME!

Thankyou for the welcome, but if Kate won't go back to the island with Jack I will. LOL

:) Yummy Mummy who wants to be Lost with Jack.

OK. From now on, Mondays shall officially be RANDOM PICSPAM MONDAY where we express ourselves freely and challenge each other to new aesthetic heights. I used to do something similar in my days of studying Art History but it was never this much fun. Mom, I know you had a hidden agenda, but thank you nonetheless. :ntworthy:
Hello All,

I'd like to say thanks to Claudia for extending an invite to me to join your discussion. After reading through for a bit I'd love to call myself a fellow F.O.X.
I was going to gie that 20 things you like about this list a shot but I don't think I can do any better than Claudia has done.

TOP JOB THERE GIRL.

:) Yummy Mummy who wants to be Lost with Jack.

Welcome home! If you have a name we can use for you that'd be great cause Mom/Mommy is already taken. :biggrin: You will fit in quite nicely in Hussydom since your very first post edit is thus explained: "So as to not sound like a perv". Erm... if you're in this thread? No reason to worry about your reputation anymore. Embrace it! :biggrin:

6 - 8 The bicep action going on there is quite wonderful, as is the unusual placement of the arm in a backwards grip on the fence. And also note the leaf touching the right arm. It's scorched on the edges from all of the hotness!!!

It's this type of fine detail that our artsy RPM classes will try to analyze. Well done indeed.


16. The gray in the beard. I find this to be lethally attractive.


*nods for lack of words* (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/random/hititsmiley.gif)This little guy should do it.


20 And not only is his undewear showing, but the waistband says something on it. So, I blew up the photo and tried to read it but couldn't really make any sense of what was there. Then I realized that by obsessively working to read the waistband of a guy's underwear, I have probably catapulted myself into some higher realm of FoxHussydom than I have heretofore experienced. So that metaphysical breakthrough is my personal number 20.


Doesn't it feel wonderfully liberating?

Thanks Claudia,

I just didnt want one of my first posts to depict me of being a sex deranged pervert from Down Under. We really are normal over here, well I am anyway.

Lori, you guys can call me what my mother calls me with affection most of the time.

;) Lori who wants to be Lost with Jack.

[quote] It's this type of fine detail that our artsy RPM classes will try to analyze. Well done indeed.

I noticed it when I blew up the picture to try and read his underwear. There. That's a sentence I never thought I'd type.

I just didnt want one of my first posts to depict me of being a sex deranged pervert from Down Under.

Whyever not? Do you think you're better than the rest of us? :biggrin:

Welcome to the gutter Den!

TSTID

Lori, you guys can call me what my mother calls me with affection most of the time.


Nice to meet you. I hope you'll join us in our art appreciation, be it Lost or just... erm... art in general. ;)


I just didnt want one of my first posts to depict me of being a sex deranged pervert from Down Under.




Whyever not? Do you think you're better than the rest of us? :biggrin:



Well, the truth is I didn't discover my inner foxhussy perv until about my tenth post where I started to explain how I feel about his burgundy shirt in The Hunting Party and it's not like you were an early bloomer either so... :clapping: to the new hussies!

OK. From now on, Mondays shall officially be RANDOM PICSPAM MONDAY where we express ourselves freely and challenge each other to new aesthetical heights.


Coming out of lurkdom to tell you that I love you all - each and every one of you. Reading your "free expression" delights me and makes me feel slightly less crazy for loving Foxy/Jack as much as I do.

I salute you all on behalf of all lurking Fox Hussies everywhere. :biggrin:

it's not like you were an early bloomer either so... :clapping: to the new hussies!

Ssshhhhhhhh!!!!! Good grief, are you trying to out me as a recovering prude? :biggrin:

Lori, let your inner hussy shine!

TSTID

Coming out of lurkdom to tell you that I love you all - each and every one of you. Reading your "free expression" delights me and makes me feel slightly less crazy for loving Foxy/Jack as much as I do.

I salute you all on behalf of all lurking Fox Hussies everywhere. :biggrin:

Why thank you! You know what's even better than reading and makes you feel even less crazy? Destroying the oppressive shackles of your lurkdom and joining us in all things expressive... As you can see, we tend to ramble quite a lot and veer from daddy issues and disagreeing with each other over our beloved pookie to full blown depravity in the space of a few hours.

I'm sure you can find your niche here. You know you want to... :devil2:

We love you back!

Okay, I think I'll just back away from the table very slowly . . . .
But I can't!!!

Sarah :mad: should not have bailed him out of jail, not when she brings her lover with her in order to do it. What? She's incapable of going to the jail to pick up Jack on her own? Jack could have spent the night in jail. He's a big boy, and he certainly didn't need to be bailed out by Sarah:mad: and have her lover be thrown in Jack's face. Sarah :mad: went for one reason, well two actually. She wanted to bail Jack out of jail and let him know that it was his fault that Christian fell off the wagon, which it wasn't, and that "Look Jack, see my lover came with me, and he's everything you're not." If there was any compassion on her part at all, I really didn't see it. She came to twist the knife.

The last thing I believe Jack needs to be is civil towards Sarah. :mad:

:clapping: I see you programmed your auto-complete with the proper grammar for each iteration of her name.
"Hey everyone, look at me! I am in the middle of everything all the time, like the spunky creature that I am!" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-191.html)
"Um...go away, we are talking about sports." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-192.html)
"Yes, and cars. No girls allowed. Get lost." (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-193.html)
I believe that was in the salmon copy of the script, one of the earlier versions.

OK. From now on, Mondays shall officially be RANDOM PICSPAM MONDAY where we express ourselves freely and challenge each other to new aesthetical heights. I used to do something similar in my days of studying Art History but it was never this much fun. Mom, I know you had a hidden agenda, but thank you nonetheless. :ntworthy: My pleasure, as always. :biggrin: We also study Art History here. This is the Redneck Renaissance section in the next room:


"The Birth of a Hillbilly" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-70-31.html) by Billy Bob Botticelli.


Welcome, suzzette and Lost with Jack!
Welcome home! If you have a name we can use for you that'd be great cause Mom/Mommy is already taken. :biggrin: Eh, as Clauds can attest, there are lots of moms in the Foxhussydom. The more the merrier!

You will fit in quite nicely in Hussydom since your very first post edit is thus explained: "So as to not sound like a perv". Erm... if you're in this thread? No reason to worry about your reputation anymore. Embrace it! :biggrin: She's pretty quick, Lori, you have to watch out for her.

Lori, let your inner hussy shine!

Well I suppose a girl with 4 children all singleton births in three and a half years can't call herself a prude can she. LOL

I'm In ladies.

Lori:)

Well I suppose a girl with 4 children all singleton births in three and a half years can't call herself a prude can she. LOL

I'm In ladies.

Lori:)
YAY! Lori's IN! :rockon:

Let your Hussy-side show! We're all shameless about it, no reason for you to hold back!


Erica

Ok I'm going to admit I havent read ALL 88 pages of this thread so if I talk about something that has already been spoken about I apologise in advance.

I see some of you hate Sarah. I don't hate Sarah, I don't understand her (I'd try to make my relationship work if I was married to Jack) But I don't hate her. It may be because I love Julie Bowen (I don't know why I just do) but in saying that maybe she isnt a good enough actress to make me see past the fact she is Julie Bowen and make me believe she is Sarah. This is one reason I love Matthew Fox so much, I was an avid Party of Five Fan and since then have not been able to watch Neve Campbell or Scott Wolf without thinking of the show, but I don't feel that way with Matthew. He is Jack and I've believed it from the start.
I do however dislike Juliet and this is where my above apology comes in as I'm sure you guys have spoken about her in the past 88 pages. I don't think she is good for Jack at all, even after coming clean in the last few episodes of season three and really saving the losties butts I still don't trust her with Jack.
Maybe I'm just overprotective and I'm still under the Kate/Jack umbrella and hoping that will come around.

So I suppose at least you know where I stand with the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet thing.

Ok I'm going to admit I havent read ALL 88 pages of this thread so if I talk about something that has already been spoken about I apologise in advance.

I see some of you hate Sarah. I don't hate Sarah, I don't understand her (I'd try to make my relationship work if I was married to Jack) But I don't hate her. It may be because I love Julie Bowen (I don't know why I just do) but in saying that maybe she isnt a good enough actress to make me see past the fact she is Julie Bowen and make me believe she is Sarah. This is one reason I love Matthew Fox so much, I was an avid Party of Five Fan and since then have not been able to watch Neve Campbell or Scott Wolf without thinking of the show, but I don't feel that way with Matthew. He is Jack and I've believed it from the start.
I do however dislike Juliet and this is where my above apology comes in as I'm sure you guys have spoken about her in the past 88 pages. I don't think she is good for Jack at all, even after coming clean in the last few episodes of season three and really saving the losties butts I still don't trust her with Jack.
Maybe I'm just overprotective and I'm still under the Kate/Jack umbrella and hoping that will come around.

So I suppose at least you know where I stand with the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet thing.


Lori (L-I-J),

Welcome to the Fox Den!! And don't worry about where you stand with Jack and who you want him to be with romantically. We come in all shapes, sizes, nationalities, religions, and who-we-ship-Jack-with, here in the Den. And that doesn't stop any of us for talking about Mr. Sexy with each other. We know we all love Jack and Foxy, and we'll always have that in common! And we all tend to be Glorious Fox Hussys. (Well, except for our male Denizens.)

Glad to have you along.

:)

I Choose Jack!

shoe

My pleasure, as always. :biggrin: We also study Art History here. This is the Redneck Renaissance section in the next room:

We're all about intellectual pursuit here so ladies... you have six days to think of your favorite Jack/Foxy picture for our weekly Art Appreciation Monday class.

Ok I'm going to admit I havent read ALL 88 pages of this thread so if I talk about something that has already been spoken about I apologise in advance.

I see some of you hate Sarah. I don't hate Sarah, I don't understand her (I'd try to make my relationship work if I was married to Jack) But I don't hate her.

Well... hate is such a strong word... :biggrin:

And re: Jack's conversation when he begs her to come back... I too noticed how desperate he was and the change in tone and that's why it doesn't bother me because of something he did to Sarah (he didn't do much), it's what he does to himself that makes it so heartbreaking.

And re: Jack's conversation when he begs her to come back... I too noticed how desperate he was and the change in tone and that's why it doesn't bother me because of something he did to Sarah (he didn't do much), it's what he does to himself that makes it so heartbreaking.

Reading that just tore me up Clauds. i want to cry. You've hit it so hard on the head there.

Reading that just tore me up Clauds. i want to cry. You've hit it so hard on the head there.

Good lord - haven't you "popped" yet, helly?:biggrin:

Good lord - haven't you "popped" yet, helly?:biggrin:

:24:

I'm sorry, that was just too funny. or I am easily amused :p

Either way, c'mon kiddo, pop out already, we're all waiting to meet you, and mommy needs you to come on out :baby:

Reading that just tore me up Clauds. i want to cry. You've hit it so hard on the head there.

What she said. :frown:

And stop keeping us on pins and needles, helly! We've got cigars to hand out here, you know! We're JackHussies, we're impatient. We can hardly wait to slam each other into a wall and yell "CONGRATULATIONS!!!" :biggrin:

TSTID

Hehehe... Helly's first one was not an early bird either so... We'll hold on to those cigars.

And I'm sorry if I made you emo. We had quite a different mood yesterday, didn't we? :3:

My Catholic guilt is burdening my soul. I must repent (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/SGA/columbia2028529.jpg). :hypocrit:

You guys make me laugh:roflmao:

Thanks for your thoughts guys - no, junior is still sitting inside. We're keeping everything but legs crossed he comes out soon - if not I am booked into hospital for sunday so he SHOULD be here this time next week:biggrin:

And re: Jack's conversation when he begs her to come back... I too noticed how desperate he was and the change in tone and that's why it doesn't bother me because of something he did to Sarah (he didn't do much), it's what he does to himself that makes it so heartbreaking.

That's very true, you have worded it so exactly right there.

OHH A BABY, I love babies.

We're keeping everything but legs crossed

Well, I think we can manage that around here... :biggrin:

That's very true, you have worded it so exactly right there.

Thank you. It doesn't really work that well when I try to ramble in long paragraphs so maybe I should give it another try. Whatever The Case May Be... how ironic is that by the end of the episode Jack's the one who's on a major guilt trip for... omg!YELLING and causing discomfort to a person he cares for and who'd just got done using and manipulating him for a plastic toy. I find it ironic.

OHH A BABY, I love babies.

So does Jack. (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Promo%20Pics%20S3/jackaaron.jpg) (Today/yesterday has NOT been a good day so I need that kind of visual, mmmkay?) This one is kinda our baby too. :baby:

I am SORRY to interrupt but THIS???

We can hardly wait to slam each other into a wall and yell "CONGRATULATIONS!!!" :biggrin:


:rotflmao2: :biglaugh:
Perfect. Absolutely Perfect.

My Catholic guilt is burdening my soul. I must repent (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/SGA/columbia2028529.jpg). :hypocrit:

And that picture of the naughty choirboy has what-all to do with repenting one's sins again?

TSTID

I am SORRY to interrupt but THIS???



:rotflmao2: :biglaugh:
Perfect. Absolutely Perfect.

You're not interrupting, it's your duty as a foxhussy to be here. :p

But yes... From now, we shall no longer wish each other a wussy HAPPY BIRTHDAY. We shall slam the birthday girl against a wall instead.

And that picture of the naughty choirboy has what-all to do with repenting one's sins again?

:25: There I go with the unclean (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/dirrrty.jpg)thoughts again... I think this picture should be our next Art class subject...

I think this picture should be our next Art class subject...

Must we wait so long? I mean, it's Wednesday. Is there really a better way to celebrate Hump Day?

Just sayin.

TSTID

All the best, Helly! I keep my fingers crossed for you.

:25: There I go with the unclean (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/magazines/dirrrty.jpg)thoughts again... I think this picture should be our next Art class subject...

Oh, I think we could come up with 20 things easily about why we love this ARTWORK. And we just might get "dirty" as we examine the art up close and personal. I never thought I'd want a jeep until I saw this picture. Now, a jeep will probably be my next vehicle to buy. LOL.

I choose Jack!

shoe

Must we wait so long? I mean, it's Wednesday. Is there really a better way to celebrate Hump Day?

Just sayin.

Oh, by all means... When will you guys realize that this IS The World's Horniest Happiest Dictatorship? Go ahead and request to have your favorite work of art reviewed by your fellow hussies anytime.

I was just throwing that out there with the unclean theme, but lately this has been my favorite exhibit in our Hussy Gallery. So there...

Tell me TEN things that define this work of art for you. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/Collision/collision-promo01.jpg)

One hussy, one picture per day, first come, first served. Or y'know... whatever rocks your boat. :biggrin:

All the best, Helly! I keep my fingers crossed for you.

But remember... NOT our legs.

The Jack Show Rewind: The One With The Case And Maggie Grace Demonstrating She Has A Really Nice Voice And Jack Being A Big Scary Horrible Woman Abusing Bully... And... Some Other Things Happened Too... I Think...


SAYID: Everything is getting washed out to sea. This can't be normal. The tide shifting so suddenly, rising in so short a time.
JACK: There's a lot not normal around here. At the rate this beach is eroding this fuselage is going to be underwater in a matter of days. We need to get all this stuff off the beach before nightfall.


And there you have it. Jack knows all too well the Island is weird but that's not his problem, his problem is keeping the castaways alive despite its weirdness.

Team Jack&Sayid do the hard work again and I love that Sayid's the one who refuses to believe and Jack is the one who looks for any way to get Claire back. I have to say... from what I remember, he's the only one because when Claire finally does come back, Locke and Boone are out looking for the freakin' dog, not for the pregnant lady!

Although he's not very nice to her when they first meet, my Jack Daniels ship is nicely represented here with Jack aksing for Danielle's asisstance already. :biggrin: Speaking of which... am I hallucinating due to lack of sleep or does Jack translate something Danielle says in French at some point in Exodus? It's not an Esperanto-type phrase that everyone knows (such as voulez-vous couchez avec moi? ) Was I hearing things? I think it might have been the dark territory bit, but I'm not sure... anyway... if I'm not tripping, bad, bad, BAD continuity guy! Well, Shannon had to have her uses...

And oh, how I loved this one little line:

"You and Locke have been leaving before sunrise and coming back after dark for the last 4 days. What are you doing out there? Is he your new boyfriend?"

Oh, just wait until Locke ties him up next week...

I know they made Kate a Catholic in season three just for the TV Catholic Cool factor and it's rather out of the blue and jammed in there, but I find it funny now that she's this criminal mastermind with a passion for hagiogrpahy, much like Roger Moore (http://www.newvideo.com/images/boxart/AAE70933-03.jpg)in his days. So just for kicks and because I know Sister Mary Margaret is out there somewhere striking guilt into the hearts of future foxhussies...

Saint Lucy: patron saint of Italy, Belgium and blind people
Saint Joan: France, Opposition of Church authorities, prisoners and captives
Saint Maggie: England and Suffolk in particular, pregnancy, childbirth, pregnant women (she also escaped from the innards of a dragon, supposedly a python that swallowed her, which I always thought was just kick a**, in a Sigourney Weaver kinda way.)


SAYID: You worry about the French, I'll take care of the math.


Ahhh... memories! I used to write French lit essays for older math nerds who'd do my math homework.


JACK [pointing to one of her plants]: So, what is this? What is this for?
SUN: [Says something in Korean, then puts her hands to her temples and makes like she's in pain.]
JACK: A headache? [Sun nods] Oh, cool, alright.


I just want to tackle and squish him tight every time I watch that (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-60-33.html)for some reason. :crush:


JACK: So, what do you need me to do?
KATE: I know where the key is. The Marshal, he kept it in his wallet. In his back pocket.
JACK: I buried him, Kate.
KATE: I know. Where?
JACK: So, what else is in the case?
KATE: What?
JACK: What else is in the case, Kate?
KATE: Nothing.
JACK: That's the truth?
KATE: Just the guns.
JACK: If you want my help, we're going to open the case together.


Deal made...

Jack holds his end of the deal even if it means digging up the man he had to smother to death with his own two hands.

Deal broken...


JACK: Key isn't in here.
KATE: It isn't?
JACK: No, but that was real good sleight-of-hand distracting me with the wallet. [Jack grabs Kate's closed hand.] Open it. [Kate opens her hand to reveal the key which Jack takes.]
KATE: Jack, I. . .
JACK: Don't. Don't.


Funny how this reminded me of my reaction to the scene in Born To Run where Jack tells her he doesn't know what she's capable of. I was upset at him. "OMG, you're so mean, you big... MEANIE!!!" :mad: And I'd only watched WTCMB a few hours before so I really have no excuse. :lol2:

I felt incredibly stupid by the end of that episode. So unsurprisingly enough, I have no problems with Jack yelling at Kate here, even though he's all guilt tripping by the end of the episode. I enjoyed the angst of it when I first watched it, it was one of my favorites. I'd have needed to know too.


JACK: Cephalexin.
SAWYER: Yeah, go on?
JACK: That's the antibiotic I've been giving you for the knife wound in your arm. You're right in the middle of the treatment cycle now, if I keep giving you the pills you're going to be right as rain. But I'm going to stop giving you the pills. And for 2 days you're going to think you're all good, then it's going to start to itch. The day after that the fever's going to come and you're going to start seeing red lines running up and down your arm. A day or two after that you'll beg me to take the case, just to cut off your arm.
SAWYER: That's a nice story, Jack. And, even if it were true I don't think you could do it.
JACK: You're wrong.


Knowing what we know now, was Sawyer wrong?

Every now and then I pay attention to Sawyer and when he doesn't machinegun his way through some trite nicknames, he's got excellent lines.

SAWYER: I know you think you're doing her a favor. But however she talked you into doing this, she lied brother.

I think more than the betrayal of yet another human being he'd put his trust in, Jack hates that Sawyer was right here because he really, really wanted him (and probably his gut instinct) to be wrong.


JACK: We're going to do this together.
KATE: Why?
JACK: Because that's what I said we'd do.


That reminded me of Alex asking him why he saved Ben's life.

Here's the line that caught my eye this time around and I can't believe I didn't pay more attention earlier:


KATE [off camera, at first]: So, why didn't you put him with the others, when you burned the fuselage?
JACK: Because I needed to bury him.


So why did Jack need to bury the Marshall? (Sucks to be Ed, btw. Can't get a break, not even in the after life... I still wonder if Kate reburied him...)

Evangeline Lilly has very pretty eyes.

Erm... I guess I'm done with this episode.

Hey guys :hug:
Just to say that I made a few Shepard´s Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/)... :D

Hey guys :hug:
Just to say that I made a few Shepard´s Icons (http://lulinha-k.livejournal.com/)... :D

Luka, those are amazing! You ROCK. :rockon:

Hello All,

I'd like to say thanks to Claudia for extending an invite to me to join your discussion. After reading through for a bit I'd love to call myself a fellow F.O.X.
I was going to gie that 20 things you like about this list a shot but I don't think I can do any better than Claudia has done.

Welcome! I hope to see you post here often.

Claudia: Good to see your recruitment of Fox Hussies going nicely. :biggrin:

Coming out of lurkdom to tell you that I love you all - each and every one of you. Reading your "free expression" delights me and makes me feel slightly less crazy for loving Foxy/Jack as much as I do.

I salute you all on behalf of all lurking Fox Hussies everywhere. :biggrin:

Another lurker de-lurked! Welcome aboard the love train.

:clapping: I see you programmed your auto-complete with the proper grammar for each iteration of her name.

Yes, I can't help it. It just . . . happens. ;)

O
I see some of you hate Sarah. I don't hate Sarah, I don't understand her (I'd try to make my relationship work if I was married to Jack) But I don't hate her. It may be because I love Julie Bowen (I don't know why I just do) but in saying that maybe she isnt a good enough actress to make me see past the fact she is Julie Bowen and make me believe she is Sarah.

Oh, don't worry about posting your likes and dislikes. We debate, discuss, and disagree on various subjects, but we have one common viewpoint about a certain tall, dark and handsome spinal surgeon. :biggrin:

I actually love Julie Bowen, too, and I liked Sarah :mad: in the first two season. It was only after her treatment of Jack in ATOTC and TTLC that made me really hate her. I wonder if Julie is coming back next season now that she's been let go from Boston Legal. In a way, I hope so because I like the actress, but in a way, I hope not because I hate the character right now. Poor Jack can't take anymore from these "women" in his life.

I do however dislike Juliet and this is where my above apology comes in as I'm sure you guys have spoken about her in the past 88 pages. I don't think she is good for Jack at all, even after coming clean in the last few episodes of season three and really saving the losties butts I still don't trust her with Jack. Yeah, I'm not sure I trust Juliet either.

So I suppose at least you know where I stand with the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet thing. I steer clear of the shipperdom. Mostly because Damon and Carlton can flip things on a dime. I certainly have my opinions about various couples, but no preferences. The one who I want with Jack is the one who loves him and treats him well. (But Sarah:mad:'s out.)

O
And oh, how I loved this one little line:

"You and Locke have been leaving before sunrise and coming back after dark for the last 4 days. What are you doing out there? Is he your new boyfriend?"


That should have been Locke's line to Jack. ;)

I know they made Kate a Catholic in season three just for the TV Catholic Cool factor :biggrin:

Jack holds his end of the deal even if it means digging up the man he had to smother to death with his own two hands.

Deal broken...

THAT was the moment that just devastated Jack. He knew that there was something in the case that she wanted, and he gave her an opportunity to tell him the truth. When she didn't, he let it go. He digs up the body, and he again gives her another chance to tell him the truth, and this time, she completely tries to outwit him. Sorry Kate, you're dealing with a man who has been manipulated by far better than the likes of you.

That "Don't" line is really heartbreaking. He's crushed. I can completely understand his anger towards Kate later on. She got upset because she got caught.

Funny how this reminded me of my reaction to the scene in Born To Run where Jack tells her he doesn't know what she's capable of. I was upset at him. "OMG, you're so mean, you big... MEANIE!!!" :mad: And I'd only watched WTCMB a few hours before so I really have no excuse. :lol2:

I felt incredibly stupid by the end of that episode. So unsurprisingly enough, I have no problems with Jack yelling at Kate here, even though he's all guilt tripping by the end of the episode. I enjoyed the angst of it when I first watched it, it was one of my favorites. I'd have needed to know too. I think it dawned on Jack that he really doesn't know anything about Kate, and he doesn't know what she is capable of, but as always, he puts his heart out there, and it got crushed. Road kill. VRRRRROOOOOM!!

Knowing what we know now, was Sawyer wrong? At THAT point in the storytelling, I don't think Sawyer was wrong. Jack couldn't have gone through with it. Watching Sawyer suffer would not be an option for Jack.

However, I think Jack is capable of much more at the end of TLLG that he would never have considered when he first crashed on that island.

I think more than the betrayal of yet another human being he'd put his trust in, Jack hates that Sawyer was right here because he really, really wanted him (and probably his gut instinct) to be wrong. That's Jack's feelings with EVERYONE he cares about. He really wants to believe that they love him or that their intentions towards him are true, and he holds onto that hope even though he knows in the back of his mind that it's probably not. At least with the people he's had in his life so far.

That reminded me of Alex asking him why he saved Ben's life. Yes, Jack's "Because I said I would," is as much a part of him as his tattoos.


So why did Jack need to bury the Marshall? (Sucks to be Ed, btw. Can't get a break, not even in the after life... I still wonder if Kate reburied him...) I think because Jack, essentially, killed him. Jack felt responsible for him. He tended to the guys wounds, tried to keep him alive, and then was forced to end his life.

I think because Jack, essentially, killed him. Jack felt responsible for him. He tended to the guys wounds, tried to keep him alive, and then was forced to end his life.

Like I said, there's a recurring theme with burials and coffins around Jack. (I still thinks he asks for forgiveness from the man in the coffin in the finale when he's about to kill himself...) He tells Sayid later on that he never knows what to say and I was wondering if his need to bury his father played any part in his need to set the Marshall aside and bury him in the jungle. But it makes sense that he felt the Marshall deserved better because of the way he died and this was his responsibility. Oh, I think we could come up with 20 things easily about why we love this ARTWORK. And we just might get "dirty" as we examine the art up close and personal. I never thought I'd want a jeep until I saw this picture. Now, a jeep will probably be my next vehicle to buy.

Now there's an ad campaign I'd love to see... as long as it's that military issue type of jeep... ;)

Another lurker de-lurked! Welcome aboard the love train.


Thanks. I'll just put my feet up now and enjoy the ride. :biggrin:


I actually love Julie Bowen, too, and I liked Sarah :mad: in the first two season. It was only after her treatment of Jack in ATOTC and TTLC that made me really hate her. I wonder if Julie is coming back next season now that she's been let go from Boston Legal. In a way, I hope so because I like the actress, but in a way, I hope not because I hate the character right now. Poor Jack can't take anymore from these "women" in his life.


I can't even describe how much I hate Sarah. I hate her with the heat of a thousand suns. And, if she does come back, I hope its only so that she can be squashed like the bug she is.


I think it dawned on Jack that he really doesn't know anything about Kate, and he doesn't know what she is capable of, but as always, he puts his heart out there, and it got crushed. Road kill. VRRRRROOOOOM!!


That's what just totally sends me over the edge with love for Jack - even with all the anger, aloofness, ego, etc - underneath it all, he's just got this huge, completely pure and beautiful heart. Really unlike any character that I can think of. I'm a total Jater - so, I've got my fingers crossed that Kate can get herself together and give him the lovin' he deserves after that totally unselfish and heartfelt "I love you". I'd hate to see him get his heart crushed again.


And, as for Foxy - Matthew Fox just knocks it outta the park each and every time with this really complex character. Somehow he manages to get all the layers and just peel them back and nail every single emotion that's called for in a particular scene. I remember reading somewhere, I think it was the episode thread for I Do - I was shocked to see some people commenting that they thought Foxy didn't nail the scene where Jack sees Sawyer and Kate on the tv monitors. And I was just stunned to see someone say that because he blew me away in that moment. In just maybe 30 seconds you can see about a dozen different emotions flitting across his face - shock, hurt, resignation (almost as if he expected to get his heart broken - again), resolution (you can see the exact moment he starts to formulate the plan to save them in his head.) Foxy just blows me away every single time.

And, oh, yeah - he's so delicious I could lick him up like Kate's spoon. :dgrin:

Thanks. I'll just put my feet up now and enjoy the ride. :biggrin:



I can't even describe how much I hate Sarah. I hate her with the heat of a thousand suns. And, if she does come back, I hope its only so that she can be squashed like the bug she is.

Julie Bowen's hair probably just stood on end. LOL. I still still still don't get why Sarah-the-cute-but-evil-hag :smilie14: came to the emergency room in the TTLG flash forward. Even if she still was his "emergency contact". If she had no intention of taking him home, why show up, except to rub her current "life" in Jack's face. Or was she treating Jack like an "animal-in-a-cage". She was curious to see this guy she'd once been married to, who was back from some island, and who was obviously labeled a hero. Why Sarah Why?


And, oh, yeah - he's so delicious I could lick him up like Kate's spoon. :dgrin:

Welcome Suzzette. With comments like that, you'll be getting your official hussy membership book in the mail any minute now!

I Choose Jack!

shoe

Great review of WTCMB Claudia! :clapping:

And there you have it. Jack knows all too well the Island is weird but that's not his problem, his problem is keeping the castaways alive despite its weirdness.

Exactly. You never see Jack get too caught up in what’s in the jungle until he has to deal with it. Jack has seen some crazy s*** (watching the pilot get ripped from the cockpit, seeing a cloud of smoke drag Locke into the ground, etc…) and he never lets that become his number one priority. He’s not interested in what the island is all about (he leaves that up to Locke). He’s interested in making sure everyone lives in order to go home some day.

I felt incredibly stupid by the end of that episode. So unsurprisingly enough, I have no problems with Jack yelling at Kate here, even though he's all guilt tripping by the end of the episode. I enjoyed the angst of it when I first watched it, it was one of my favorites. I'd have needed to know too.

Jack is being cautious in my opinion and his approach to that isn’t him trying to be mean about it, he’s tired of the lies, any lies. I didn’t see the harm in Jack yelling at Kate in this episode either. She clearly lied to his face and he wasn’t having that at all. Kate trying to dop Jack was just not going to happen. He digs up a dead corpse for her and she continues to be less than honest? Oh no, not today.

Jack’s guilt trip at the end of the episode was obviously him feeling guilty for pushing Kate the way that he did. I didn’t mind his approach at all (if Jack yelled at me like that, I think I would kiss him senseless…what can I say? Angry Jack is HOT…everyday Jack is HOT…), but maybe he felt his approach was less than genuine. The look on his face as he turned away from looking at her was one of pure guilt mixed in with concern, concern for her (that's why we see him making up with her in the very next episode).

I don’t blame Jack for wanting the truth and I would have pushed just as hard and just as long for the truth.

Knowing what we know now, was Sawyer wrong?

Sawyer wasn’t wrong. Jack would not have let that happen. It’s obvious that Jack hates Sawyer in the first few episodes of the first season, but he wouldn’t have withheld treatment, not even from the likes of Sawyer. I believe that Jack was sizing Sawyer up in a sense. He knew that Sawyer had no idea how important it was that he was treated with antibiotics. It was a bargaining chip in a sense. To get something out of Sawyer, you have to speak his language, quid pro quo, something for something, the medicine for the case. Jack was simply using logic, the only logic, that Sawyer understands.

BTW: I love how Jack delivered that little threat of sorts, it was so slick and he didn't flinch for a second, not giving Sawyer any indication that he wouldn't do it. I love that man.

I think more than the betrayal of yet another human being he'd put his trust in, Jack hates that Sawyer was right here because he really, really wanted him (and probably his gut instinct) to be wrong.

Yeah, I agree. Jack, from the moment he saw that mug-shot of Kate, gave her the opportunity to be upfront and honest with him and when she went to him after being busted, wanting to tell him everything, Jack felt that it was a giant step in the right direction. Jack really wanted Sawyer to be wrong about Kate and the fact that, “however she talked you into doing this, she lied brother...” But it’s interesting because Kate didn’t talk Jack into getting the case, she blew it when she lied about the key, but Jack talked himself into the fact that he had to know what was in that case that Kate just had to have.

So why did Jack need to bury the Marshall? (Sucks to be Ed, btw. Can't get a break, not even in the after life... I still wonder if Kate reburied him...)

I believe that Jack felt responsible for the man. From the moment they crashed, he was at the man’s side, tending to his wounds, working tirelessly to save his life and things just kept snow-balling out of control and he couldn’t save him. The man was in and out of consciousness and where there’s a will there’s Jack… I mean, we’ve seen this type of responsibility for a patient from Jack many times before (the pregnant patient in ATBCHDI, Sarah in “Man of Science, Man of Faith”, the woman in the accident in TTLG). Why couldn’t Jack burn him in the fuselage with the rest of the dead? Because Jack had to take it upon himself to end Ed’s suffering and out of respect, he had to bury him.

100%

I actually love Julie Bowen, too, and I liked Sarah in the first two season. It was only after her treatment of Jack in ATOTC and TTLC that made me really hate her. I wonder if Julie is coming back next season now that she's been let go from Boston Legal. In a way, I hope so because I like the actress, but in a way, I hope not because I hate the character right now. Poor Jack can't take anymore from these "women" in his life.

I like the actress (her character on ‘Boston Legal’ is just very interesting to say the least…), but I HATE Sarah. I can’t stomach the woman. I liked her in “Do No Harm” and she was okay in “Man of Science, Man of Faith” (as a woman with a steel rod going through her abdomen...I miss those days), but after “The Hunting Party” she was so dead to me. Dead. Okay, first off, to be honest, Jack wasn’t the best husband, I get that, but he was dedicated enough to tell her that some patient’s daughter was slobbering all over him, but she doesn’t hear him. She’s an attention monger and I can’t stand her. And HELLO! You’re married. You don’t get to just bow out on your wedding vows because your husband is fixated on fixing things. UGH. Jack needs to just swear off every woman that comes his way (pull out the old crucifix and tell her to stay away).

THAT was the moment that just devastated Jack. He knew that there was something in the case that she wanted, and he gave her an opportunity to tell him the truth. When she didn't, he let it go. He digs up the body, and he again gives her another chance to tell him the truth, and this time, she completely tries to outwit him. Sorry Kate, you're dealing with a man who has been manipulated by far better than the likes of you.

Exactly. Jack has been trained in the ‘Seeing Through the Bulls*** ’ program and he can clearly read Kate like the back of his hand. He reads her so well that she can’t stand it at times and she can read him in the same way ("Stop that.." "What?" "That"). She can't even get the fact that she's not going boar hunting for the boar pass Jack. Beautiful.

That "Don't" line is really heartbreaking. He's crushed. I can completely understand his anger towards Kate later on. She got upset because she got caught.

Jack was clearly disappointed by Kate and the fact that she still can’t trust him the way that he trusts her at some points. His anger towards Kate later on is completely understandable. I think that Kate is pissed because she has seriously met her match in Jack (awwwww Jate….:sweety: ). He can read through the lies and the manipulation and I don’t think she’s ever met someone, a man, like that before. Look at poor Jason in the FBs of this episode, he’s completely blind to the fact that Kate played him and Kate can’t play Jack. She can’t use him like she used Jason to get to that toy airplane because Jack has this innate alarm that tells him when someone, when Kate in particular, is playing with him. She was pissed that she got caught because Jack saw right through her. She can’t manipulate him.

At THAT point in the storytelling, I don't think Sawyer was wrong. Jack couldn't have gone through with it. Watching Sawyer suffer would not be an option for Jack. However, I think Jack is capable of much more at the end of TLLG that he would never have considered when he first crashed on that island.

As I said before, Jack couldn’t watch a fellow human being in so much pain knowing that he had a way to stop it. I agree that after TTLG, Jack is capable of so much more destruction and he probably would have watched Sawyer suffer and break into a high fever just to see the man sweat. I mean he did leave Ben’s spinal column exposed for about an hour, holding him hostage, and didn’t even flinch about him potentially bleeding to death, until he got what he wanted, so anything’s possible. ;)

Yes, Jack's "Because I said I would," is as much a part of him as his tattoos.

I agree. Jack is a man of his word and if he says that he’s going to do something, he’s going to see it through. Like him marrying Sarah, he said that he would, so he did it, with many reservations and doubts, but he was at the altar and he married her. Now, the only time Jack deviated from what he said he was going to do was when he spoke up against his father in ATBCHDI, and that was because Christian is a lying SOB. Jack is all about his word. As someone who expects the truth and for people to keep their promises, he expects it of himself in return.


Erica


P.S. Welcome to the Den suzzzette!

I agree. Jack is a man of his word and if he says that he’s going to do something, he’s going to see it through. Like him marrying Sarah, he said that he would, so he did it, with many reservations and doubts, but he was at the altar and he married her. Now, the only time Jack deviated from what he said he was going to do was when he spoke up against his father in ATBCHDI, and that was because Christian is a lying SOB. Jack is all about his word. As someone who expects the truth and for people to keep their promises, he expects it of himself in return.


I agree Jack is a man of his word and people may label him as judgemental but he only expects of others that he expects of himself. He has standards he expects people to follow but these are not standards he doesnt hold himself accountable to.

Quote:
So why did Jack need to bury the Marshall? (Sucks to be Ed, btw. Can't get a break, not even in the after life... I still wonder if Kate reburied him...)

Jack was his Doctor and Jack failed to heal him. He feels responsible in part for the death esp as I think he knows if he was in a hospital he could have healed him. He knew how to heal him but he couldnt and this frustrated him no end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia815 http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1628041#post1628041)
Knowing what we know now, was Sawyer wrong?


He would have been right with the Jack of season 1and 2 but not the Jack of season 3, not the Jack taken by the others and not the Jack who needed to give Libby heroin to take her pain before she died. Even though Micheal was responsible for Libby's death I think Jack still really holds Ben responsible because he pushed him to it by holding Walt.

am I hallucinating due to lack of sleep or does Jack translate something Danielle says in French at some point in Exodus? It's not an Esperanto-type phrase that everyone knows (such as voulez-vous couchez avec moi? ) Was I hearing things? I think it might have been the dark territory bit, but I'm not sure... anyway... if I'm not tripping, bad, bad, BAD continuity guy! Well, Shannon had to have her uses...

I actually thought the same thing and giggled because ZOMG!Jack speaks French! it's so NOT fair - why HIM again???? but though he's the one translating the phrase at the end of the season, he just merely reiterates what he heard earlier. this is from Numbers:

JACK: Sayid, look, you've got her maps and her papers. Now you thought that they were pointing to something.
SAYID: Well, I was wrong.
JACK: Well, maybe they're pointing to her?
SAYID: Look! I don't even know what these papers mean. For all I know they could be the ravings of her disturbed mind - song lyrics mixed with equations. [He hands the papers to Hurley and shows a map to Jack] If this map is pointing to her, then you should know she resides here, in this area. She gave it a name: Territoire Fonce, Shannon translated it. It means dark territory. Does that sound like a place you'd like to visit?


so, no continuity error, this time;) . though it annoyed me later that they made Sayid live in PARIS for frak sake and HE couldn't speak French:shakehead: . but, as you said, Clauds, Shannon had to have her uses...

I actually thought the same thing and giggled because ZOMG!Jack speaks French! it's so NOT fair - why HIM again???? but though he's the one translating the phrase at the end of the season, he just merely reiterates what he heard earlier. this is from Numbers:


so, no continuity error, this time;) . though it annoyed me later that they made Sayid live in PARIS for frak sake and HE couldn't speak French:shakehead: . but, as you said, Clauds, Shannon had to have her uses...

Whatcha talkin' about? Sayid speaks fluent French, but the guy just wanted to spend some time with the hot blonde. But it turned our Sawyer didn't speak French, so he had to settle with spending time with Shannon. :p

But seriously, it annoys you he spent some time in Paris locked in some basement but can't speak French, I still can't understand how a Tikrit born Iraqi who was in the Republican Guard can't speak Arabic!! :dry:
100%
Like I said, there's a recurring theme with burials and coffins around Jack. (I still thinks he asks for forgiveness from the man in the coffin in the finale when he's about to kill himself...) He tells Sayid later on that he never knows what to say and I was wondering if his need to bury his father played any part in his need to set the Marshall aside and bury him in the jungle. But it makes sense that he felt the Marshall deserved better because of the way he died and this was his responsibility.


I remember that being my initial reaction when I first saw s1 and when Jack said that we had already known about his father, I directly thought it was his way of needing to bury someone, as opposed to burning the other corpses because he felt responsible for his death as he did his father. I thought it meant to him some sort of fulfilling a duty he could not do with his father and give someone who has just died and someone he failed a proper burial. Ofcourse back then I had no idea how twisted and messed up Jack's relationship with Christian was or how messed up and obsessive Jack is.

Whatcha talkin' about? Sayid speaks fluent French, but the guy just wanted to spend some time with the hot blonde. But it turned our Sawyer didn't speak French, so he had to settle with spending time with Shannon. :p
:doh: you're SO right! how could I not figure it out??? bad me :shy: . I guess my only excuse is that my attention is only at 50% at best, when there's no Jack on my screen (you see, I have to save it so that later I can inhale Jack with 150% of my senses' normal capacity :drool:).

But seriously, it annoys you he spent some time in Paris locked in some basement but can't speak French, I still can't understand how a Tikrit born Iraqi who was in the Republican Guard can't speak Arabic!! :dry:
yeah, that's one of Lost mysteries, no? :frusty:

Thanks. I'll just put my feet up now and enjoy the ride. :biggrin:

That's the spirit! Welcome home! And I mean it...

And, oh, yeah - he's so delicious I could lick him up like Kate's spoon. :dgrin:

See what I mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia815 http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1628041#post1628041)
Knowing what we know now, was Sawyer wrong?


He would have been right with the Jack of season 1and 2 but not the Jack of season 3, not the Jack taken by the others and not the Jack who needed to give Libby heroin to take her pain before she died. Even though Micheal was responsible for Libby's death I think Jack still really holds Ben responsible because he pushed him to it by holding Walt.

:shesaid: You've just articulated so well what I had in mind with that question. Oh and just because it took me over a year to figure out and I'm always happy to spare fellow fans the pain... There's a quote button in the lower right-hand corner of each post. If you want to quote more than one poster, slide your cursor over the last tiny button to the right, the one with + on it and then click it on all the posts you want to quote and when you hit "Reply", *Spongebob voice* maaagic will happen. :biggrin:

I actually thought the same thing and giggled because ZOMG!Jack speaks French!

Exactly.

so, no continuity error, this time;)

Thanks for clearing that up. :hug:

Ofcourse back then I had no idea how twisted and messed up Jack's relationship with Christian was or how messed up and obsessive Jack is.

Pffft, you're just trying too hard to be like the famous girls and get your mug on the cover. ;)

Well, I'd have lots more to comment but work will be evil today, so for now, I'll just reiterate my request of the Art Appreciation classes and in order to make it fair for everyone who logs in on different timezones... each hussy should come up with just ONE (or two... cause I know it's hard) reason why a certain work of art makes her :thud:

Here's mine (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/Collision/collision-promo01.jpg), I'm looking forward to you ladies displaying your stuff. :biggrin:

Well, I'd have lots more to comment but work will be evil today, so for now, I'll just reiterate my request of the Art Appreciation classes and in order to make it fair for everyone who logs in on different timezones... each hussy should come up with just ONE (or two... cause I know it's hard) reason why a certain work of art makes her :thud:

Here's mine (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/Collision/collision-promo01.jpg), I'm looking forward to you ladies displaying your stuff. :biggrin:

Foxhussy Masters Advanced Art Appreciation Class 501 - Taught by Professor Clauds

Subject: Dr. Jack Shepard

Note to Professor: Only one or two appreciation comments, surely you jest. :ohmy: This is very difficult because my eye for Jack beauty and Jack art are immediately drawn to several fascinating areas on the sexy body of the subject. I also am a student and devotee of shots of sexy keys around the neck. However, my artist eye couldn't help but notice:

1. Is there a more beautiful set of sexy long fiingers on a man? *hand pron* indeed. That is one hell of a lucky water bottle I'm tellin' ya. Can you imagine being the woman looking down and seeing those sexy slim fingers grabbing for your ...... ahem, :redface: well....

How did I do Professor?

I choose the artwork currently known as Jack!

shoe

Pffft, you're just trying too hard to be like the famous girls and get your mug on the cover. ;)


HA! You "famous girls" can enjoy all the covers you get, I'm a proud schoolyard bully with an IQ over 130. :rolleyes:

I just stole found something. Know (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/know2.jpg) Jack (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/know.jpg).

Displaying my stuff, or rather his stuff (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/Dr%20Jack/Lost_2x16_TheWholeTruth_0381-Ar.jpg), as requested.

Foxhussy Masters Advanced Art Appreciation Class 501 - Taught by Professor Clauds

Subject: Dr. Jack Shepard

Note to Professor: Only one or two appreciation comments, surely you jest. :ohmy: This is very difficult because my eye for Jack beauty and Jack art are immediately drawn to several fascinating areas on the sexy body of the subject. I also am a student and devotee of shots of sexy keys around the neck. However, my artist eye couldn't help but notice:

1. Is there a more beautiful set of sexy long fiingers on a man? *hand pron* indeed. That is one hell of a lucky water bottle I'm tellin' ya. Can you imagine being the woman looking down and seeing those sexy slim fingers grabbing for your ...... ahem, :redface: well....

How did I do Professor?

I choose the artwork currently known as Jack!

shoe

water bottle, you say? I say this piece of cloth is fondled VERY nicely :p. hmmm... let's be honest - he can grab/hold/fondle/caress/do anything he wants to any part of me with these hands and I will be... satisfied ;).


and, Yas? I wouldn't mind knowing Jack in every aspect... it's because I'm thorough in everything I do. :whistling yup, that's the only reason.:innocent: oh, to be Locke in that one scene:redface:

How did I do Professor?

You display a keen sense of proportion and are obviously capable of apreciating the elegance and beauty displayed in that image of his surgeon hands confidently gripping the water bottle. Well done!

Do go into details about the key for extracredit though. It is one of those details about Dr. Jack that enhance my enjoyment of that picture in our Foxhussy Gallery.

Here's mine (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/Collision/collision-promo01.jpg), I'm looking forward to you ladies displaying your stuff. :biggrin:
This little-known portrait (which means "what ep is this from, anyway??" :34853_huh: ) was certainly chosen by our professor for several key elements, two of which have been noted by shoe. But the third element is certain to be the dress shirt, with buttons, that echoes Dr. Jack's wardrobe pre-island (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x11/3/normal_huntingpartycap355.jpg). Here, however, the wardrobe dept. has opted for practicality by giving him some other poor soul's dress shirt that is a size too large, for better air circulation on the hot humid island (just as they do with his jeans.) Dang.

This little-known portrait (which means "what ep is this from, anyway??" :34853_huh: ) lol. the pic has the name "collision promo", so lemme think.... Collision, maybe? :cool: :p

which means "what ep is this from, anyway??" :34853_huh:

lol. the pic has the name "collision promo", so lemme think.... Collision, maybe? :cool: :p

Mrs B is right. Tsk. Tsk mom. How could you forget? :shakehead: This is the golf shirt and the water bottle he was filling when Rose came up to him with the mango and advice about leaving the hatch occasionally and right before Kate's hooked golf ball (because she couldn't keep her left arm straight) bombarded into the scene. And if you look closely, as I know you have, you will see he still had the key around his neck which would date this pic pre-TLC.

Anyone can take a wild guess, but that's not being a foxhussy. What is being a foxhussy you ask? Being a foxhussy is accuracy.

yes, I know scenes by heart. Quit looking at me like that.

Mrs B is right. Tsk. Tsk mom. How could you forget? :shakehead: This is the golf shirt and the water bottle he was filling when Rose came up to him with the mango and advice about leaving the hatch occasionally and right before Kate's hooked golf ball (because she couldn't keep her left arm straight) bombarded into the scene. And if you look closely, as I know you have, you will see he still had the key around his neck which would date this pic pre-TLC.

Anyone can take a wild guess, but that's not being a foxhussy. What is being a foxhussy you ask? Being a foxhussy is accuracy.

yes, I know scenes by heart. Quit looking at me like that.

Well duh, I knew the key placed it as before they put the guns in the armory; any hussy could have told you that....:rolleyes:

I'm just surprised at myself for having this knowledge gap, but after completing the Rewind I should be in good shape. At least by Christmas.

I would like to thank the good Professor for choosing this artwork for us to study today, for, it is a particularly fine example of the subject in what I like to call his brief Throwback to Civilization period, in which he makes one last, futile attempt to recapture he pre-island self – the golf-playing, button-down shirt wearing doctor – before relapsing into the permanent Casual Friday of life on his new home, a surrender and slide into something closer to savagery that is presaged, sweetly and touchingly, by his gentle chastisement at the hand of Rose, who points out that he (badly in need not only of Rose’s earthy, unconditional motherlove but also table manners) is chewing a mango with his mouth open (and yes I know this is a very long sentence, but this is art analysis, so run-on sentences are mandatory).

I would also like to comment on the key, which is, as has been pointed out, an important indicator of the placement of this episode of the larger story, but also a potent symbol of Jack’s power, within the group. It marks him as the keeper of the guns, or, to slide into the gutter, albeit in a highbrow way, the holder of the island’s sexual energy, or screaming mojo, if you will. It is worth noting that in future episodes the guns will be grabbed by an Anti-Hero figure, who serves as sort of a degraded shadow of the Hero in the story, but it is an essentially meaningless gesture, as he cannot steal what he is inherently incapable of possessing. In an existential sense, he is forever powerless in the presence of the Hero, no matter how he tries, in his bee-like frenzy, to deal from the bottom of the deck, or distract with talk of Floridian sexcapades, for all the Hero needs to exert his infinite and Divinely-bestowed superiority is a pair of nines and a smirk, and the Cosmic Order that dictates that Right Makes Might is once more restored.

I could go on about the empty water bottle symbolizing the unattainable quest for fulfillment from external, rather than internal, sources, but I have to go home because the plumber is coming over to fix the toilet and someone has to let him in the house.

Yours, in art,

TSTID

Work has killed my brain today and friends are throwing their emo at me (and I welcome it with open arms) so I need to breathe a little before I delve into the world of academia again.

Just what the doctor ordered:

Mindless Entertainment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eciKjnKRC1c)

To quote Lovey... "Did you SEE him straddling that chair?"

And I even did the research to make you feel less dirty: he was 24 but playing a 17 yr. old.

Just what the doctor ordered:

Mindless Entertainment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eciKjnKRC1c)

To quote Lovey... "Did you SEE him straddling that chair?"

And I even did the research to make you feel less dirty: he was 24 but playing a 17 yr. old.
"Ty, have you ever seen a movie called The Graduate?" :73happy:

Tim Daly also still looks pretty good 17 years later.
100%
I would also like to comment on the key, which is, as has been pointed out, an important indicator of the placement of this episode of the larger story, but also a potent symbol of Jack’s power, within the group. It marks him as the keeper of the guns, or, to slide into the gutter, albeit in a highbrow way, the holder of the island’s sexual energy, or screaming mojo, if you will.
Yours, in art,

TSTID
Taking that symbolism one step further, "to key" is slang in Italian for -- well, you figure it out. Just ask Franci -- dico bene?

Taking that symbolism one step further, "to key" is slang in Italian for -- well, you figure it out. Just ask Franci -- dico bene?

As I learned in my days as an English major, you can never take sybolism too far. Also, the Italians have slang terms for everything, and it always sounds very classy when you say it, no matter what it means. :biggrin:

TSTID

TSTID-
You are brilliant beyond words. ;)

This is such a rare moment for Jack and the whole beginning of this episode is such a treat for me being a devoted Jack fan and Jater. His scenes with Rose have always been among my favorites, as few as they are...

But he is TRULY (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/collision-cap595.jpg)...a work (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0278-Ar.jpg) of (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0283-Ar.jpg) art (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0294-Ar.jpg).

"Kate (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0348-Ar.jpg), I'm (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0329-Ar.jpg) a (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0334-Ar.jpg) doctor (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0357-Ar.jpg)".

"Golf (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/collision-cap182.jpg) is (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0535-Ar.jpg)...Accuracy (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0558-Ar.jpg)."

And maybe someone has said this already but - the towel in the back pocket adds such a wonderful touch to the overall masterpiece. The key and towel being symbolic of his status in the group and his "god like" nature. ;)

TSTID- You are brilliant beyond words. ;)

I agree 110%. TSTID, you are incredible. :thumbsup:

But he is TRULY (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/collision-cap595.jpg)...a work (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0278-Ar.jpg) of (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0283-Ar.jpg) art (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0294-Ar.jpg).

That is the luckiest piece of fruit...in the universe. Boy, what I would give....:crush:

"Kate (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0348-Ar.jpg), I'm (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0329-Ar.jpg) a (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0334-Ar.jpg) doctor (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0357-Ar.jpg)".

I know you are but what am I? You sexy beast... :ntworthy:

I just admire that scene simply because Jack has got to be at his cutest when he gives you that 'I know I'm hot ' look (melts in my mouth....)

"Golf (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/collision-cap182.jpg) is (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0535-Ar.jpg)...Accuracy (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/Carrielynne2323/LOST%20Ep%20Caps%20S2/Lost_2x08_Collision_0558-Ar.jpg)."

And what a shame it would be if I purposefully play like I have no idea what I'm doing so the good doctor can come behind me and give me a few tips (a girl can dream... :naughty:)


Forever Foxy's lady,

Erica

I see my dedicated art enthusiasts will spare no effort to pursue our lofty goals of personal growth through catharsis. Night classes too? I'm suitably impressed.

Mrs.B, you get extra credit points for your power of deduction in identifying this little known portrait. :clapping: I think it's important for serious scholars such as ourselves to veer off the beaten path every now and then.

For future reference, when one wishes to display a subject for the rest of the class (as opposed to the regular exhibits linked to on a regular basis), use this smilie :smart: to announce your academic intentions. I wouldn't want to miss any requests, like I missed yasy's earlier.


Displaying my stuff, or rather his stuff (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/Dr%20Jack/Lost_2x16_TheWholeTruth_0381-Ar.jpg), as requested.

By far the most interesting aspect of that steamy close up for me is how unphased Dr.Jack is at Locke stalking him there and standing naked in front of him, making casual conversation. To him, this is just another locker room, it's what guys do, and he has no problem (or issues ;)) with the invasion of privacy, blissfully unaware of the turmoil it causes inside poor Locke's hussy heart.

That's what just totally sends me over the edge with love for Jack - even with all the anger, aloofness, ego, etc - underneath it all, he's just got this huge, completely pure and beautiful heart. Really unlike any character that I can think of.

I think those of us who identify more with Doctor House, at least on some jaded, superficial level, often find themselves over the edge with love with Dr. Jack. I know I do.

Jack is being cautious in my opinion and his approach to that isn’t him trying to be mean about it, he’s tired of the lies, any lies. I didn’t see the harm in Jack yelling at Kate in this episode either. She clearly lied to his face and he wasn’t having that at all. Kate trying to dop Jack was just not going to happen. He digs up a dead corpse for her and she continues to be less than honest? Oh no, not today.

:lol2: I cracked up imagining him saying that. For the record, I don't understand why being a woman spares Kate (or any of us for that matter) from being held accountable for how she/we treat(s) others. When I :censored: up, I expect to be yelled at just as much as my male co-workers/friends. Just sayin'.


Sawyer wasn’t wrong. Jack would not have let that happen. It’s obvious that Jack hates Sawyer in the first few episodes of the first season, but he wouldn’t have withheld treatment, not even from the likes of Sawyer. I believe that Jack was sizing Sawyer up in a sense. He knew that Sawyer had no idea how important it was that he was treated with antibiotics. It was a bargaining chip in a sense. To get something out of Sawyer, you have to speak his language, quid pro quo, something for something, the medicine for the case. Jack was simply using logic, the only logic, that Sawyer understands.


Good observation about the seizing up... But I don't think Jack hated Sawyer at any point, simply because most of the time, he's got bigger things on his mind, but also because I think Sawyer frustrates him and pisses him off sometimes, but Jack sees through him and he's not dangerous enough to be hated. Not like, say... Ben.


I remember that being my initial reaction when I first saw s1 and when Jack said that we had already known about his father, I directly thought it was his way of needing to bury someone, as opposed to burning the other corpses because he felt responsible for his death as he did his father. I thought it meant to him some sort of fulfilling a duty he could not do with his father and give someone who has just died and someone he failed a proper burial.

That reminded me of two separate moments: this is a reversal of roles between Jack and Sayid when Jack was all business before and not having the time to sort everyone's gods. But it also reminds me of his pleading with Chrissie at the airport "I just need it to be over!" Atonement With The Father is a crucial part of the hero's journey.


I just stole found something. Know (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/know2.jpg) Jack (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/yas-m/know.jpg).

Oh, you'd so Ace that one! ;)

I would like to thank the good Professor for choosing this artwork for us to study today, for, it is a particularly fine example of the subject in what I like to call his brief Throwback to Civilization period, in which he makes one last, futile attempt to recapture he pre-island self – the golf-playing, button-down shirt wearing doctor – before relapsing into the permanent Casual Friday of life on his new home, a surrender and slide into something closer to savagery that is presaged, sweetly and touchingly, by his gentle chastisement at the hand of Rose, who points out that he (badly in need not only of Rose’s earthy, unconditional motherlove but also table manners) is chewing a mango with his mouth open (and yes I know this is a very long sentence, but this is art analysis, so run-on sentences are mandatory).

I would also like to comment on the key, which is, as has been pointed out, an important indicator of the placement of this episode of the larger story, but also a potent symbol of Jack’s power, within the group. It marks him as the keeper of the guns, or, to slide into the gutter, albeit in a highbrow way, the holder of the island’s sexual energy, or screaming mojo, if you will. It is worth noting that in future episodes the guns will be grabbed by an Anti-Hero figure, who serves as sort of a degraded shadow of the Hero in the story, but it is an essentially meaningless gesture, as he cannot steal what he is inherently incapable of possessing. In an existential sense, he is forever powerless in the presence of the Hero, no matter how he tries, in his bee-like frenzy, to deal from the bottom of the deck, or distract with talk of Floridian sexcapades, for all the Hero needs to exert his infinite and Divinely-bestowed superiority is a pair of nines and a smirk, and the Cosmic Order that dictates that Right Makes Might is once more restored.

I could go on about the empty water bottle symbolizing the unattainable quest for fulfillment from external, rather than internal, sources, but I have to go home because the plumber is coming over to fix the toilet and someone has to let him in the house.

Yours, in art,

TSTID

When I grow up I want to be TSTID

:ntworthy:

When I grow up I want to be TSTID

:ntworthy:

Take a number...

Take a number...

I must take a number too... :laughing:

hello ladies (and gents?)!

i SWEAR that i am not returning to the den on my birthday on purpose, although i did get a lovely birthday message from miss clauds this morning that prompted me to log back on.

i know that it has been waaayyyyyy too long since i have seen you, and i have missed a den and a half since i was last here, but i hope that you will welcome me back, and forgive my absence.

RL has been kicking my rear.

i will do my best to visit more often!

how is everyone and how are things in the world of dr. jack?

hello ladies (and gents?)!

i SWEAR that i am not returning to the den on my birthday on purpose, although i did get a lovely birthday message from miss clauds this morning that prompted me to log back on.

i know that it has been waaayyyyyy too long since i have seen you, and i have missed a den and a half since i was last here, but i hope that you will welcome me back, and forgive my absence.

RL has been kicking my rear.

i will do my best to visit more often!

how is everyone and how are things in the world of dr. jack?

Imagine a HUGE, slobbering Saint Bernard running towards you at full speed to tackle you and lick your face... That's me right now. :jump1: :hug:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

We're doing fine here, perving over Dr.McSexy as always.... we're rewatching all the episodes in the hope of making the hiatus go by faster.

Yay, I hope you join us and it's always so good to see a foxhussy return to Gutterland, especially on her birthday!

Have a wonderful day, hon! :heart:

KITSCH!!! Just a few days ago I was wondering if you're ok... Have a HAPPY BIRTHDAY and make sure to stop my more often, 'k? :hug:

Happy Birthday KITSCH! :hapybday: :party: :hb2: :party:

hello ladies (and gents?)!

i SWEAR that i am not returning to the den on my birthday on purpose, although i did get a lovely birthday message from miss clauds this morning that prompted me to log back on.

i know that it has been waaayyyyyy too long since i have seen you, and i have missed a den and a half since i was last here, but i hope that you will welcome me back, and forgive my absence.

RL has been kicking my rear.

i will do my best to visit more often!

how is everyone and how are things in the world of dr. jack?

HEY!! Good to see you back home in the Den! And Happy Birthday!!!! :hapybday:
:hug: Do stick around, ok? ;)

hello ladies (and gents?)!

i SWEAR that i am not returning to the den on my birthday on purpose, although i did get a lovely birthday message from miss clauds this morning that prompted me to log back on.

i know that it has been waaayyyyyy too long since i have seen you, and i have missed a den and a half since i was last here, but i hope that you will welcome me back, and forgive my absence.

RL has been kicking my rear.

i will do my best to visit more often!


Many happy returns, Ms. Kitsch. You know, if RL is kicking your rear, the only thing to do is kick back...hard. :)

Hope you have a happy, happy day!

TSTID

Seeing as my mind is in vacation mode I can only drool at all of those pictures of Foxy! I mean, it doesn't get any better than that! EVER, ANYWHERE! He is perfection and then some.!!

Talk to you all when I get back.

Take Care.

Daphne
(DocLover)

denizens, thank you sooo much for all of the birthday love!

if you could arrange to have doctor jack sent over i'd sure appreciate it :blshing1:

i promise, i will try to make my visits much much much more frequent than once every six months. i will do my best to kick RL back in the buttocks!

denizens, thank you sooo much for all of the birthday love!

if you could arrange to have doctor jack sent over i'd sure appreciate it :blshing1:

i promise, i will try to make my visits much much much more frequent than once every six months. i will do my best to kick RL back in the buttocks!

Happy Happy Birthday Kitschy!! :hug: :bdaywink: :bdaywink: :party: :hapybday: :bdaywink: :bdaywink: :bdaywink:


It's good to have you back with us. If I could find Dr. Jack, I would send a carbon copy to every one of the dear Foxhussies i would keep the original for myself. :biggrin:

I Choose Jack!

shoe

I love fandom... :lol2: I cannot wait until next summer for our next Jack Show Awards. Anyway...


if you could arrange to have doctor jack sent over i'd sure appreciate it :blshing1:

And I was doing so well with my sharing issues... *sigh*

In the meantime, you can choose your favorite picture so we can per... analyze it on your birthday.

*searches through hundreds of Jack photos for art class project*

Ah ha!

Professor Clauds,

I submit the following artwork for Foxhussy appreciation and salivation.

I call it:

:smart: Come Hither Foxhussy! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/?action=view&current=stranger-cap-374.jpg)

May I submit the first art commentary on this classic piece of art, which is priceless. Christies only wishes they could have it to auction off. They would have to add some extra cleaning crew, and stock up on dainty hand towels, there might be a few thousand sweating hussy-women in that auction room.

1. Notice the very masculine slightly furred chest in all its glory. No smooth babies bum here. Think of what that chest must feel like brushing up against well, .... yours. :hypocrit: *fans self... fans self.... fans self*

Foxhussys! What do you appreciate in this modern, but earthy, piece of art???

I Choose the Masterpiece himself, Jack!!

shoe

Dammitdammitdammitdammit!

I am actually going out this evening...as in leaving the house and doing an out-of-the-house non-work-related activity. I am dying to examine, closely, veryveryvery closely, this exciting and powerful artwork.

Stupid Hollywood Bowl tickets. How will I concentrate on South Pacific now? Answer: I won't be. :o

TSTID

Thanks. I'll just put my feet up now and enjoy the ride. :biggrin:

Put your seat belt on. :biggrin:

And, as for Foxy - Matthew Fox just knocks it outta the park each and every time with this really complex character. In just maybe 30 seconds you can see about a dozen different emotions flitting across his face - shock, hurt, resignation (almost as if he expected to get his heart broken - again), resolution (you can see the exact moment he starts to formulate the plan to save them in his head.) Foxy just blows me away every single time. You described one of my favorite moments. I think Matthew did a great job with that scene. When he first sees Kate and Sawyer on that monitor, he's just stunned - stunned. Then you can see how it just sinks into his mind, and when he laughs and looks down, you can hear him saying "I can't believe I did this to myself again."

Do you ever notice that Jack never has time to fully absorb the emotions or dangers that happen to him on the island? Jack barely has time to register what he just witnessed before Ben comes through the door. Jack is forced to suppress his feelings and switch gears in order to deal with Ben. The fact that Jack has the ability to think on his feet and deal with numerous crisis is also what makes the Castaways turn to him as their leader. Jack doesn't break under pressure. You could even say he thrives on it. He bends and he adapts, but he's never down and out.
And, oh, yeah - he's so delicious I could lick him up like Kate's spoon. :dgrin:Yep, you're going to fit in around here just fine. :biggrin:

I still still still don't get why Sarah-the-cute-but-evil-hag :smilie14: came to the emergency room in the TTLG flash forward. Even if she still was his "emergency contact". If she had no intention of taking him home, why show up, except to rub her current "life" in Jack's face.

That was my Sarah:mad: moment in TTLG. Her whole purpose for coming to see Jack was not to help him or provide any comfort whatsoever. Her purpose was to look down her nose at him. In essence, she was there to say, "Look Jack, I've got my life. I'm pregnant. I'm starting a family, and you have nothing. See ya."

Exactly. You never see Jack get too caught up in what’s in the jungle until he has to deal with it. Jack has seen some crazy s*** (watching the pilot get ripped from the cockpit, seeing a cloud of smoke drag Locke into the ground, etc…) and he never lets that become his number one priority.

Did Jack ever see Smokey? I mean, did he see more than just a wisp of smoke? I recall him asking Kate "Did you see that?" However, I don't think that Jack ever had a full blown Smokey encounter. The only people who have is Locke, Mr. Eko, Kate, Juliet, and probably Ben (and the Others).

The only really crazy things Jack has witnessed is the image of his father, which he chalked up to an hallucination based on stress and lack of sleep; he had the encounter with Smokey in the cockpit, but never saw it, and he never saw Smokey. So, technically, Jack doesn't really know HOW crazy the island is compared to most of the Castaways.

Jack is being cautious in my opinion and his approach to that isn’t him trying to be mean about it, he’s tired of the lies, any lies. I didn’t see the harm in Jack yelling at Kate in this episode either. She clearly lied to his face and he wasn’t having that at all. That's exactly why Jack lost it. Jack hates being lied to because he's been lied to all his life by the people he loves. As a result, he can spot a lie or a manipulation immediately.

BTW: I love how Jack delivered that little threat of sorts, it was so slick and he didn't flinch for a second, not giving Sawyer any indication that he wouldn't do it. I love that man. I love that scene. That one and the "When I want the guns, I'll get the guns." :biggrin:

Yeah, I agree. Jack, from the moment he saw that mug-shot of Kate, gave her the opportunity to be upfront and honest with him and when she went to him after being busted, wanting to tell him everything, Jack felt that it was a giant step in the right direction. Jack really wanted Sawyer to be wrong about Kate and the fact that, “however she talked you into doing this, she lied brother...” But it’s interesting because Kate didn’t talk Jack into getting the case, she blew it when she lied about the key, but Jack talked himself into the fact that he had to know what was in that case that Kate just had to have. Well said. Kate believed that she was manipulating Jack, just as she's manipulated men successfully in the past. She never talked Jack into stealing the case. He knew she wanted it, and she knew it was about more than just getting the Marshall's guns. He gave her an opportunity to tell him the truth because he KNEW she was lying to him. She lied anyway. That didn't bother Jack as much until the key incident. THAT'S what sent him over the edge because now she's lying to him AND trying to manipulate him. That's what cut Jack the deepest. He hates lies. Kate knew that Jack was affected by the Marshall's death, especially since Jack was forced to euthanize him. To have her get Jack to dig up his body, go through his maggot-infested clothes for the key, only to try and have her say it was never there was what angered Jack. She tried to play him, she got caught. "Don't."

Okay, first off, to be honest, Jack wasn’t the best husband, I get that, but he was dedicated enough to tell her that some patient’s daughter was slobbering all over him, but she doesn’t hear him. She’s an attention monger and I can’t stand her. And HELLO! You’re married. You don’t get to just bow out on your wedding vows because your husband is fixated on fixing things. UGH. Jack needs to just swear off every woman that comes his way (pull out the old crucifix and tell her to stay away). Granted, Jack was not the best husband, but the difference between Jack and Sarah :mad: is that when Jack realized his marriage was really spiraling out of control, he wanted to recommit to the marriage. Sarah :mad: had already bailed. She was having a nice long affair with monkey boy (yes, that's my name for him until he has one). After getting propositioned by a beautiful woman, Jack not only stops the advances, but he returns to his wife, confesses, and then tells her that he KNOWS he hasn't been the best husband, that he's working too much, and he's going to change. Jack takes responsibility for his actions. He doesn't blame his wife because he believes she's a good person, which is why he is shocked to find out 1) she's having an affair; and 2) she's leaving him. Sarah:mad: doesn't have the guts to talk to her husband about the problems in her marriage nor does she try to communicate with him. She just bails.

You're right. Jack needs to avoid women. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are going to avoid him. :biggrin:

I mean he did leave Ben’s spinal column exposed for about an hour, holding him hostage, and didn’t even flinch about him potentially bleeding to death, until he got what he wanted, so anything’s possible. ;) Jack is a very different man by the end of season three, which I am loving. I like the edgier, manipulative, table-turning, gun-toting, "blow them all to hell" Jack. It just makes him more yummy. Don't mess with Jack.

I agree. Jack is a man of his word and if he says that he’s going to do something, he’s going to see it through. Like him marrying Sarah, he said that he would, so he did it, with many reservations and doubts, but he was at the altar and he married her. Now, the only time Jack deviated from what he said he was going to do was when he spoke up against his father in ATBCHDI, and that was because Christian is a lying SOB. Jack is all about his word. As someone who expects the truth and for people to keep their promises, he expects it of himself in return. That's one of the things I like most about Jack. He is a man of his word. It's another thing about him that makes him the leader, and why the Castaways turn to him. You believe Jack when he says something, even if he has no clue how he's going to keep his promise. In the end, he WILL keep it. There's a constant about Jack. This idea that you'll be safe as long as he's around because he'll die trying to protect or defend you.


By far the most interesting aspect of that steamy close up for me is how unphased Dr.Jack is at Locke stalking him there and standing naked in front of him, making casual conversation.

Jack is so loveably clueless. I mean, only Jack would be shocked when beautiful women want to kiss him. He did it with Gabriella, Kate, and with Juliet. I love that stunned little look he gets on his face when the woman moves in for the kill. Unfortunately, there is usually a bus with his name on it not far behind.

I cracked up imagining him saying that. For the record, I don't understand why being a woman spares Kate (or any of us for that matter) from being held accountable for how she/we treat(s) others. When I :censored: up, I expect to be yelled at just as much as my male co-workers/friends. Just sayin'. I know! I'm always amazed that because Kate is a woman, Jack had no right to yell at her that way. What was noteworthy about that whole scene was that Jack STILL kept his word to Kate. They did open the case together, and Jack handed her the envelope. Did Jack deserve to know what the plane represented? Yes, he did. She had no problem lying to Jack's face about the case, she had no problem getting him to dig up the corpse to retrieve the key. So, she doesn't get to hide behind, "It's personal." Digging up a dead man's body is pretty personal too. If Kate wants to play hard ball, she can't cry when she gets caught in her manipulations.

BTW: Priceless, TSTID. Absolutely perfect your post about the key. I loved when Jack was wearing that key. Now, there's a piece of Lost merchandising I can get behind.

*searches through hundreds of Jack photos for art class project*

Ah ha!

Professor Clauds,

I submit the following artwork for Foxhussy appreciation and salivation.

I call it:

:smart: Come Hither Foxhussy! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/?action=view&current=stranger-cap-374.jpg)



'tis indeed a challenge because some of us are undoubtedly going to be this close to getting banned forever on account of that picture so this is a wonderful exercise in doublespeak. ;) I'll start by saying that the net which envelops him softly creates an eerie atmosphere and the entire tableau is bathed in delicate, etheral light, a direct contrast to the hard edges of his naked body caressing the sheets. :geek:


Jack is a very different man by the end of season three, which I am loving. I like the edgier, manipulative, table-turning, gun-toting, "blow them all to hell" Jack.

I think he's learned a lot about human nature in the last three months, though I'd hate to see him lose that big, fluffy, warm heart suzzzette was talking about... I want both that and the edgier, more cynical Jack that is a natural fit with his explosive temper and his introverted, prone-to-brooding nature. I think the two can co-exist and I hope they do because I hate it when he allows the people he loves to treat him like an emotional doormat so a little bit of cynicism helps.

Jack is so loveably clueless. I mean, only Jack would be shocked when beautiful women want to kiss him. He did it with Gabriella, Kate, and with Juliet. I love that stunned little look he gets on his face when the woman moves in for the kill. Unfortunately, there is usually a bus with his name on it not far behind.

:roflmao: So funny and so true.

I know! I'm always amazed that because Kate is a woman, Jack had no right to yell at her that way.

Pfft! You don't think we're easily frightened and should be delicately handled even if we treat people like dirt? Shame on you! The Suffragettes are turning in their graves as we speak.

I loved when Jack was wearing that key. Now, there's a piece of Lost merchandising I can get behind.

The best thing about it? We can make our own! :biggrin:

'tis indeed a challenge because some of us are undoubtedly going to be this close to getting banned forever on account of that picture so this is a wonderful exercise in doublespeak. ;) I'll start by saying that the net which envelops him softly creates an eerie atmosphere and the entire tableau is bathed in soft, etheral light, a direct contrast to the hard edges of his naked body caressing the sheets. :geek:

You know the term "Bedroom eyes?" Well THAT picture is bedroom eyes in SPADES. "Come Hither" works too. :biggrin:


I think he's learned a lot about human nature in the last three months, though I'd hate to see him lose that big, fluffy, warm heart suzzzette was talking about... I want both that and the edgier, more cynical Jack that is a natural fit with his explosive temper and his impulsiveness. I think the two can co-exist and I hope they do because I hate it when he allows the people he loves to treat him like an emotional doormat so a little bit of cynicism helps. Agreed. I think the Jack in season three is the Jack I want for the next three seasons. He's still loveable, squishy, clueless, vulnerable, but he's also tough, snarky, dangerous, and a tad deadly.

Can we get more sleeveless shirt Jack scenes for next season, pretty please?

Pfft! You don't think we're easily frightened and should be delicately handeled even if we treat people like dirt? The Suffragettes are turning in their graves as we speak. I know, seriously. It's not like Jack body slammed her over a rock. He yelled at her for lying and manipulating, she cried because she got caught, and he walked away out of disgust. Sounds about right to me.

The best thing about it? We can make our own! :biggrin:Yeah, I can see all the non-Lost fans pointing to my neck, and saying "What's the key for?" If they only knew. :biggrin:

You're right. Jack needs to avoid women. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are going to avoid him. :biggrin:

...Jack is so loveably clueless. I mean, only Jack would be shocked when beautiful women want to kiss him. He did it with Gabriella, Kate, and with Juliet. I love that stunned little look he gets on his face when the woman moves in for the kill. Unfortunately, there is usually a bus with his name on it not far behind.

There may be something to this. I think he should steer pretty clear of Juliet now that there's a very dangerous VW bus that's been restored to service on the island. See my Mystic avatar-of-the-week :77: .

And I was just watching Special tonight, and saw Michael get hit by a taxi as he walks numbly into the street after talking to Susan on a pay phone. It happens to everyone, apparently.
100%
'tis indeed a challenge because some of us are undoubtedly going to be this close to getting banned forever on account of that picture so this is a wonderful exercise in doublespeak. ;) I'll start by saying that the net which envelops him softly creates an eerie atmosphere and the entire tableau is bathed in delicate, etheral light, a direct contrast to the hard edges of his naked body caressing the sheets. :geek: Told ya you could do it. It's half the fun. :biggrin:

Pfft! You don't think we're easily frightened and should be delicately handled even if we treat people like dirt? Shame on you! The Suffragettes are turning in their graves as we speak. Suddenly I'm singing tunes from Mary Poppins and ducking volleys by Admiral Boom up on the roof.

You know the term "Bedroom eyes?" Well THAT picture is bedroom eyes in SPADES. "Come Hither" works too. :biggrin: I guess it makes up for his usual lack of bedside manner, huh?

7. The fact that he wears something around his neck that's just perfect for grabbing purposes. (I'm short... I've learned to adapt quickly ;))

Clauds, you crack me up!

Apologies for not posting for a while, and haven’t got that much to add to the on-going conversation about his lusciousness. Apart from to say that I also love the scene when Jack spots Kate and Sawyer on the monitor - MF is brilliant at conveying so many conflicting emotions with just his (gorgeous puppy-dog) eyes. And I really like everyone’s discussion about his complex relationship with Christian. I feel so sorry for Jack because anything he did was never good enough in his father’s eyes. I think he needs a hug. From me, preferably.

oh my, have i missed this den!

clauds, we could always fashion you a sort of dr. jack footstool, if height is an issue, but i do agree that the key was a handy accessory for those foxhussies who are vertically challenged.

shoe, the come hither pic was definitely the best birthday pic anyone could have chosen! yikes, that was hot stuff!!!

*searches through hundreds of Jack photos for art class project*

That's the best part about this project...we will be able to keep ourselves busy until the 50th Anniversary Lost Reunion in 2054,


:smart: Come Hither Foxhussy! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/?action=view&current=stranger-cap-374.jpg)]

Best. Art. Masterpiece. Title. Evah.

1. Notice the very masculine slightly furred chest in all its glory. No smooth babies bum here.

I thought, when I first saw "Lost," and have thought every time I have caught a glimpse of Dr. Jack/Foxy since then: "Now THAT is what a adult human male is supposed to look like." Not pretty, not some gym-sculpted hardbody, not salon waxed, plucked, or primpted. Just overwhelmingly and unfussily and scorchingly MANLY.

TSTID

So true - swoon!

H x

OMG...a fifth star!

:redface: I am indeed a woman now.

TSTID

Here we go again...:biggrin:

Do you ever notice that Jack never has time to fully absorb the emotions or dangers that happen to him on the island? Jack barely has time to register what he just witnessed before Ben comes through the door. Jack is forced to suppress his feelings and switch gears in order to deal with Ben. The fact that Jack has the ability to think on his feet and deal with numerous crisis is also what makes the Castaways turn to him as their leader. Jack doesn't break under pressure. You could even say he thrives on it. He bends and he adapts, but he's never down and out.
Yes, I have noticed this on many different occasions. Jack can't sit still long enough to absorb the emotions that he's going through because something or someone is always in the way. I noticed that the first time that Jack really gets a moment to himself was in the episode "White Rabbit". Jack has to flee into the depths of the jungle to really think, mourn and process his emotions and the fact that he just crashed onto the most hellacious island there ever was just doesn't help matters. This is when Jack sees his father everywhere basically and Jack has to take time to deal with that grief, that guilt, that remorse on the basic levels and then work from there. I remember seeing him sitting in front of the fire in the middle of the jungle and he just starts crying, breaking down (more like breaking my heart...because that scene gets to me every single time), completely exposed, no one around to bug him about the water shortage, no one blaming him for a woman's death. I believe that that's the first time Jack cries after the crash and he had to get away from all the noise to finally break down.

I also remember the scene in the airport where Jack is being told that he can't leave because of his father's coffin and there being a hold-up. Jack is about to crawl out of his skin because he's ready to get it over with, he's ready to bury his father and everything that he's feeling. "Why can't I just bring him to a funeral home and make all the arrangements? Why can't I really take my time with it? Because I need it to be done. I need it to be over. I just -- I need to bury my father." Jack is just so ready to bury it all, everything that came from his father, and him crashing onto the island, he had to react to everything else (people drowning, people who are thirsty and hungry, etc...) that Jack didn't have time to sit and cry about what he's been through. And then when he finds the coffin in the caves, something inside of Jack snaps. He's finally coming unglued, all the anger, resentment, pain, and complete surge of uncontrollable emotions shot through him because he couldn't bury his father like he needed to. Just something else that was put on the backburner because Jack has to deal with the here and now. I guess that's one of the reasons he's such a great doctor, being able to switch gears at the drop of a hat is key.

That was my Sarah moment in TTLG. Her whole purpose for coming to see Jack was not to help him or provide any comfort whatsoever. Her purpose was to look down her nose at him. In essence, she was there to say, "Look Jack, I've got my life. I'm pregnant. I'm starting a family, and you have nothing. See ya."

This woman really urks my nerves. She sees Jack in that FF scene and immediately gets that ‘disappointed and concerned parent’ face and asks him if he’s okay. Jack politely says that he’s fine. Sarah immediately expects the worst of Jack and asks twice if he’s been drinking and he vehemently says no. Jack asks her why she’s there, and she says that she’s still his emergency contact, a sign that Jack hasn’t quite let go (maybe he has but just forgot to remove Sarah as his emergency contact, who knows). She again treats him like a toddler and asks him what he was doing driving around at two o’clock in the morning (I would have said, "Excuse me? Are we still married? Because the last time I checked you don't hvae the right to ask me that"). Jack dodges her question and asks for a ride home and Sarah says, "I don't think that would be appropriate.” In my mind, I’m asking, “So it’s appropriate for you to come down to the hospital to see your ex-husband and rub it in his face that you’ve really moved on due to your round and very pregnant midsection?” Sorry, but Sarah was the one who was inappropriate in the situation. Why didn’t she just call Jack’s mother or someone else if it was so inappropriate for her to be seen with him? Just a thought…

Did Jack ever see Smokey? I mean, did he see more than just a wisp of smoke? I recall him asking Kate "Did you see that?" However, I don't think that Jack ever had a full blown Smokey encounter. The only people who have is Locke, Mr. Eko, Kate, Juliet, and probably Ben (and the Others).
You are correct, Jack has never been face-to-face with Smokey, but I was just pointing out that Jack knows of its existence and it's not his problem to deal with it. About the cockpit encounter, I don't think that was Smokey that ripped the pilot out. When I see the pilot all bloody and chewed up in that tree at the end of the episode, I think that it's something else entirely. I see how Eko died and he was basically thrown around until he was limp and lifeless, but the pilot looked like he was mauled and almost swallowed but was spit out (I know...the imagery...sorry guys...) for some reason. I could be wrong. :shrug:

Erica

I believe that Jack has indeed seen Smokey up close. He sees it when Locke is being dragged through the jungle, and when it flees when disrupted by the dynamite. For what it's worth, which is probably not much because my "Lost" plot prognostications are usually highly incorrect :) , I also think Smokey had a look into Jack's mind very early on...say, right before the "camera" starts rolling in the pilot. Jack doesn't remember it, of course, because he's passed out at the time, but I think that is where the island conjures Christian from (complete with the sound of ice rattling in a glass) in White Rabbit.

On an unrelated note, I believe that Sarah comes down to the hospital to see Jack because she was called and she is legitimately concerned, but once she sees he's OK, she doesn't want to get involved. She's also leery of him, either because of the behavior exhibited in ATOTC, or something else that has happened off-island and post-rescue, or whatever, but there's more there than her simply being a one-dimensional Vincent, which, to me, she has never been. Anyway, I think there is still some feeling there for him on her part. Me, I might or might not have chauffered him anywhere myself, I'm not sure, but I would at the very least have called him a cab, and ensured that he got in it and safely on his way. But then I think I'm probably a nicer person than Sarah is. Which really isn't that hard when you think about it.

Fire away! I don't really hate Sarah all that much, and will happily take on the Devil's Advocate Defender of Sarah position that has been advertised. I've got my asbestos undies on, and I can take it! :biggrin:

TSTID

I also think Smokey had a look into Jack's mind very early on...say, right before the "camera" starts rolling in the pilot. Jack doesn't remember it, of course, because he's passed out at the time, but I think that is where the island conjures Christian from (complete with the sound of ice rattling in a glass) in White Rabbit.

This is a very interesting possibility. I mean, it's interesting that Jack wasn't with everyone else when the plane crashed. He and Kate seemed to have been the only ones out in the jungle after the crash where Smokey is bound to show up and make a guest appearance. Smokey could have seen Jack and saw something in him, saw his mind and that he was a generally good person and he sees that he causes no harm (or something like that). Because when Smokey attacked Locke, it must have seen him, or what he was after and decided to take him away (down a hole in the ground lol) and figure him out. When Smokey attacked and killed Eko, there had to be something about Eko that it didn't like or found threatening (because the first time Eko came face-to-face with Smokey, Eko ended up winning the staredown and Smokey backed off) and decided that he wasn't in the best interest of the Island in a sense. It's crazy but plausible.

On an unrelated note, I believe that Sarah comes down to the hospital to see Jack because she was called and she is legitimately concerned, but once she sees he's OK, she doesn't want to get involved.

This could be a very reasonable outlook, but if she's so leery of him and doesn't want to be involved, then why not find someone who can help him? Why not call Jack's mom or some other family member? BTW: Where the h#@ is Margo when her son is spiraling out of control? Dead-beat I tell ya. Why rush in there to see him and remind him of why it never worked out and leave him there? She's getting involved by going down there in the first place, asking him questions, interrogating him like he's on trial. She may have been concerned, but she wasn't that torn up about it in my eyes. She saw him and reminded him of their failed marriage. I mean, it was indicated in the FBs in "The Hunting Party" that Sarah wanted to be pregnant and saw the fear in Jack's eyes, basically indicating that he didn't want kids just yet and then she shows up and rubs her pot belly in his face...salt on a very open, exposed wound in my opinion. She got there, gave him this disappointed look and basically indicated, "Well, I gotta get back to my uber-amazing life without you in it! Bye Jack!" I hate Sarah :mad:. She doesn't make sense to me.

Erica

*searches through hundreds of Jack photos for art class project*

Ah ha!

Professor Clauds,

I submit the following artwork for Foxhussy appreciation and salivation.

I call it:

:smart: Come Hither Foxhussy! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/?action=view&current=stranger-cap-374.jpg)


*O*M*F*G* :ntworthy:
*foxyself*

This is a very interesting possibility. I mean, it's interesting that Jack wasn't with everyone else when the plane crashed. He and Kate seemed to have been the only ones out in the jungle after the crash where Smokey is bound to show up and make a guest appearance.

Well, I have a feeling Kate started out on the beach, then hightailed it into the jungle to rid herself of the cuffs. That's why she when we first see her, she's rubbing her wrists and the cuffs themselves end up out in the trees where Walt finds them. I think she was probably on the beach, since that's where Marshall Ed was.

As for Jack, there were crash victims throughout the jungle -- we see some of them at the bottom of the lake in "Whatever the Case May Be," and there's Bernard also, who was not with the rest of the tailies. That's what happens when a plane breaks apart in the air and people are sucked out as it crashes.

Smokey could have seen Jack and saw something in him, saw his mind and that he was a generally good person and he sees that he causes no harm (or something like that).

It's interesting to note that in chasing down the apparition of his father (that I believe to have been caused by Smokey), Jack is nearly killed by falling off a cliff. Then, of course, he's led to water, so mixed messages there. But it's not, overall hostile to him because we've seen what happens when it is (Eko, the pilot).

Because when Smokey attacked Locke, it must have seen him, or what he was after and decided to take him away (down a hole in the ground lol) and figure him out.

I don't think Smokey attacked him, I think Locke was right and that it probably would not have hurt him. The island loves Locke, and we know that Smokey looked "beautiful" and like a shining light to him. I think it is benevolently inclined towards him, for whatever reason.

When Smokey attacked and killed Eko, there had to be something about Eko that it didn't like or found threatening (because the first time Eko came face-to-face with Smokey, Eko ended up winning the staredown and Smokey backed off) and decided that he wasn't in the best interest of the Island in a sense. It's crazy but plausible.

In Eko's case, I think Smokey saw something useful or worthy in him that was not there when it met Eko again and killed him. We know that the island pretty much ordered Eko to keep pushing the button, no matter what, and that Eko did not do this, and also that Eko utterly failed to show any repentance for the way he had lived his life. TPTB have hinted (strongly, by coming out and saying so), that Smokey is something of a judge. In that case, Eko failed some important test and so was picked up by his ankles by a big dark smokey fist and swung around like a bolo and smacked into a tree. I have to say that as shockingly great as this show is, some of the CGI will probably not be standing the test of time, with this scene right near the top, as it's already near the top of the "that looks lame!" pile with virtually all of the polar bear scenes.

This could be a very reasonable outlook, but if she's so leery of him and doesn't want to be involved, then why not find someone who can help him besides herself?

Because she's on the list, and figures, maybe he's been badly injured (they don't tell you much when they call you in), and she needs to be there.

BTW: Where the h#@ is Margo when her son is spiraling out of control? Dead-beat I tell ya.

I'm hoping we find out in Season 4. I would love to see her again.

Why rush in there to see him and remind him of why it never worked out and leave him there?

She didn't remind him of why it didn't work out. She saw him, saw that he was OK, and left. Leaving without seeing if he had a way home was cold. But that's the kind kind of selfish chick she is. No surprise there, really.

She may have been concerned, but she wasn't that torn up about it in my eyes.

Look at her face. She's got tears in her eyes. She's upset by his appearance and manner.

She saw him, reminded him of their failed marriage.

Well, just seeing her would remind him of that, even if she showed up and behaved like a perfect and selfless saint, which, I think we can all agree, is utterly beyond her.

then she shows up to rub her pot belly in his face.

She didn't show up to rub the belly in his face. She had the belly, got an emergency call from the hospital, went down in the middle of the night as duty dictated.

She got there, gave him this disappointed look and basically indicated, "Well, I gotta get back to my uber-amazing life without you in it! Bye Jack!"

It was less a disappointed look than a look of wonder, and not a good kind. It's the same look Kate gives him at the airport, the "God in heaven, what happened to you?" look. I don't think any of that other stuff was intimated her their exchange at all. The worst thing she does is leave him in a lurch without a way to get home, or at least, back to his car, which, given the part of town he's in on that bridge, is probably gone already. :biggrin: Oh, and she gives him a look of pity, which we know from his later exchange with Dr. Hamill, that he hates, but he's too sad at seeing her thriving, pregnant self to react with anger.

TSTID

Well, I have a feeling Kate started out on the beach, then hightailed it into the jungle to rid herself of the cuffs. That's why she when we first see her, she's rubbing her wrists and the cuffs themselves end up out in the trees where Walt finds them. I think she was probably on the beach, since that's where Marshall Ed was.

As for Jack, there were crash victims throughout the jungle -- we see some of them at the bottom of the lake in "Whatever the Case May Be," and there's Bernard also, who was not with the rest of the tailies. That's what happens when a plane breaks apart in the air and people are sucked out as it crashes.


Yeah, this is true, there are many of the survivors that weren't on the beach and were in the jungle to start off with, but how do you explain Jack and why he's all alone in the jungle? I mean, he and Rose were seated next to one another and she's on the beach and he's in the jungle. Yes, Ed is on the beach, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Kate was located where he was. Maybe Kate woke up where Walt found the cuffs or maybe she did sneak away to take them off. I could be wrong, but it's just me thinking outside the box.

It's interesting to note that in chasing down the apparition of his father (that I believe to have been caused by Smokey), Jack is nearly killed by falling off a cliff. Then, of course, he's led to water, so mixed messages there. But it's not, overall hostile to him because we've seen what happens when it is (Eko, the pilot).

This is true. I think that maybe Smokey was testing Jack there as well. I don't know. Since Smokey is a 'judge' in a sense, he's testing whatever he saw in Jack from the very beginning. "He walks among us, but he is not one of us". Maybe Smokey already knows that Jack is somewhat different and will come to understand the Island in the same way that Locke is trying to understand.

I don't think Smokey attacked him, I think Locke was right and that it probably would not have hurt him. The island loves Locke, and we know that Smokey looked "beautiful" and like a shining light to him. I think it is benevolently inclined towards him, for whatever reason.

Yes, the Island loves Locke, but he's been the one beaten down most by the Island. The Island gives him the abilty to walk and then he stumbles. Locke did see something in Smokey or whatever it was he saw in "Walkabout" and I truly believe as well that Smokey wasn't going to hurt Locke, but just wanted to get a closer look maybe? The h%$ if I know.

In Eko's case, I think Smokey saw something useful or worthy in him that was not there when it met Eko again and killed him. We know that the island pretty much ordered Eko to keep pushing the button, no matter what, and that Eko did not do this, and also that Eko utterly failed to show any repentance for the way he had lived his life. TPTB have hinted (strongly, by coming out and saying so), that Smokey is something of a judge. In that case, Eko failed some important test and so was picked up by his ankles by a big dark smokey fist and swung around like a bolo and smacked into a tree.

This is very interesting. Eko lived his life in complete sin. He posed as a priest and didn't care to really understand the worshipfulness of the church. Yemi warned him many times about his life and the fact that his Judgement Day was coming and that if he didn't live his life right he would forever regret that. And Eko deciding to build a church on the beach, what drove him to want to do that when off the island he seems to spit on the church and all that it represents? I think that the Island spoke to him and told him that he needed to do this to repent, to be redeemed. Just guessing. Yemi once told Eko, "For confession to mean something you must have a penitent heart". The Island sees that Eko isn't capable of penance. So, in the episode "The Cost of Living" we see that Eko is chasing Yemi (a form of Smokey I believe), a test to see if he can show repentance, if he can do what his brother said that he's not capable of doing, and the fact that he still shows no mercy or repentance, Smokey gets angry and wacks him. So Eko failed his test in a sense.

It was less a disappointed look than a look of wonder, and not a good kind. It's the same look Kate gives him at the airport, the "God in heaven, what happened to you?" look. I don't think any of that other stuff was intimated her their exchange at all. The worst thing she does is leave him in a lurch without a way to get home, or at least, back to his car, which, given the part of town he's in on that bridge, is probably gone already. :biggrin: Oh, and she gives him a look of pity, which we know from his later exchange with Dr. Hamill, that he hates, but he's too sad at seeing her thriving, pregnant self to react with anger.

Okay, maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on Sarah :mad: in that scene. I just hate the fact that she seems to always make Jack feel unworthy, unwanted, unloved. The way that she left him and the way that she treats him just doesn't sit well with me. In that scene, yes she looks concerned and leery of him and yet, she turns back into the 'cold, dainty' Sarah :mad: that up and bailed out on him. You have made some very good points for Sarah :mad: and I will try to be more understanding. But, in conclusion, I hate that woman.

Erica

Yeah, this is true, there are many of the survivors that weren't on the beach and were in the jungle to start off with, but how do you explain Jack and why he's all alone in the jungle? I mean, he and Rose were seated next to one another and she's on the beach and he's in the jungle. Yes, Ed is on the beach, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Kate was located where he was. I could be wrong, but it's just me thinking outside the box.

Plane crashes are chaotic by their nature. In crashes where there are survivors, people can be obliterated, and the people next to them uninjured. People can be killed in crash landings when the plane is left intact, and they can also survive being blown out of a plane at 30,000 feet. So, I'm not really sure that where they were when the plane crashed will, in the end, mean anything.

This is true. I think that maybe Smokey was testing Jack there as well. I don't know. Since Smokey is a 'judge' in a sense, he's testing whatever he saw in Jack from the very beginning. "He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us". Maybe Smokey already knows that Jack is somewhat different and will come to understand the Island in the same way that Locke is trying to understand.

True, and an excellent point. I think Jack is going to have to evolve in his relationship with whatever makes the island "different." And he's going to have to come to the realization that he too is "different," regardless of how logically he wants the world to work. I think there is some link between Jack and the island that we don't know, as both have rather extraordinary healing powers. Both can and have performed a miracle. Again, I am ready to accept that I am totally wrong, but I can't believe that that connection is a coincidence at this point.

This is very interesting. Eko lived his life in complete sin. He posed as a priest and didn't care to really understand the worshipfulness of the church. yemi warned him may times about his life and the fact that his Judgement Day was coming and that if he didn't live his life right he would forever regret that.

And yet, Yemi has much to answer for also, more than Eko in a way, I think. Eko is in the position he is in his life because he sacrificed his future for his brother...a brother who is, to put it kindly, a unapologetic, judgmental ingrate. He shows him no sympathy or mercy at all. Eko's backstory was my favorite, and I was sorry to see him go. His relationship with Yemi was wonderfully written and played, very ambivalent, with no easy answers. Like life.

The way that she left him and the way that she treats him just doesn't sit well with me. You have made some very good points for Sarah :mad: and I will try to be more understanding. But, in conclusion, I hate that woman.

Well, Sarah is pretty hateful in a lot of ways, so it makes sense! :biggrin: She's a far worse wife than Jack is as a husband. He's a workaholic and neglectful, and I think that's about as far as it goes. He's sorry for this, disappointed in himself, and genuinely repentant, and willing to try to make it better? Could he have "fixed" the problem in their marriage? I doubt it, because the problem is that they should never have gotten married, and he knows it. Sarah, unlike Jack is fundamentally selfish, deceitful, small-hearted (although she does indeed have a heart, I think...she's not unfeeling), somewhat manipulative, and has a mean streak. And, worse, she sees no fault in herself. This makes her something of a Vincent, but really, these are not unusual qualities in a person, and being unhappily married does bring out the worst in people. I'll can cut her a break and not see her as a monster. But I wouldn't want her as a friend, sister, daughter, carpool buddy, or much of anything else.

TSTID

Is there a list somewhere of Smokey non-believers? If so, sign me up. :frown: I still don't buy the very specific information everyone seems to have that Smokey "scans" people's brains and memories and learns their darkest secrets by flashing them or hovering near them or whatever the little guy wants to do at the time. I know TPTB have mentioned "scanning" but as far as I'm concerned nothing in on the screen has told me yet that it can see into people's minds. Humph.
I don't have a fully formed theory about the monster so I'm just gonna wait, watch, and see. And hope he eats Ben in the near future.
As always, just my opinion and I'm not trying to pour water on anyone else's speculation.

*O*M*F*G* :ntworthy:

I do believe that is the most astute and genuine comment ever made in our art class. Congratulations, Luka! A+.

Apologies for not posting for a while, and haven’t got that much to add to the on-going conversation about his lusciousness. Apart from to say that I also love the scene when Jack spots Kate and Sawyer on the monitor - MF is brilliant at conveying so many conflicting emotions with just his (gorgeous puppy-dog) eyes. And I really like everyone’s discussion about his complex relationship with Christian. I feel so sorry for Jack because anything he did was never good enough in his father’s eyes. I think he needs a hug. From me, preferably.

Oh, but I'm sure you'd share with the rest of the class. Don't worry, you can drop in and leave your thoughts on whichever episode of the rewind you're on, we're not big on order and discipline around here. ;) And there's always interesting perspectives to be added so I love "going back".

clauds, we could always fashion you a sort of dr. jack footstool, if height is an issue, but i do agree that the key was a handy accessory for those foxhussies who are vertically challenged.

Awww, that's very sweet of you, thinking of us vertically challenged hussies. Yes, the key, aside from its Island Sexual Mojo symbolism so masterfully analyzed by TSTID, is also very practical and beautiful in its unfussy, simple way. Just like Jack.

OMG...a fifth star!

:redface: I am indeed a woman now.


Congratulations! There will never be a different number, only the size and color will change (I like Remus and Jinxy's purple, but I'm not too fond of my orange...) I am obviously fashion-challenged as well.

This could be a very reasonable outlook, but if she's so leery of him and doesn't want to be involved, then why not find someone who can help him? Why not call Jack's mom or some other family member?

She just doens't care that much and she's not a very thoughtful person at best. Aside from that, I agree with TSTID on pretty much everything about Sarah.

BTW: Where the h#@ is Margo when her son is spiraling out of control?

I don't think they could get Veronica Hammel, otherwise she would have been there and at Jack's wedding in DNH.

She's getting involved by going down there in the first place, asking him questions, interrogating him like he's on trial.

Actually, I think she was just trying to understand what had happened to him and it's something I would have asked him too. I thought that question was there not to show us what an uncaring :dog: Sarah is (she is most of the time), but to give Jack the opportunity to realize he has nobody to share this with. It wasn't the question, it was the answer. I remember sitting there thinking "How DO you explain something like that to someone who wasn't on the island and isn't involved in whatever tragedy consumes him." I don't really hate Sarah, even though I agree that she's a selfish :dog:. Especially in the finale, I see her more like a narrative device and one of those people who are simply petty and... small, but I find it completely realistic and Jack seems to be surounded by them.

I don't really have any Smokey thoughts at the moment, though Hildy might contribute to the discussion because she's at that point in the rewind and more knowledgeable in the mythology department anyway. :biggrin:

The latest issue of the Lost magazine came out today and thanks to flyer, I'll be able to type up a script extract, the final scene of season three where Jack meets Kate at the airport. I need to breathe first though because RL is stressing me out. I think I'll go on a trip to my photobucket for some R&R. ;)

I know TPTB have mentioned "scanning" but as far as I'm concerned nothing in on the screen has told me yet that it can see into people's minds. Humph.

TPTB mentioned scanning and also they said something about "downloading" memories from people's minds, and in the sequence where Smokey has the staring contest with Eko, they pan to Smokey's "point of view" and see images of Eko's life and experiences revealed within the smoke. That says to me that it's scanning and gathering data to me. How? Why? What the heck is Smokey anyway? Where does it live? Is it alive? I have no earthly idea. But I do believe data gathering is part of what it does, either because it was designed and is told to, or because that's its inherent nature. I don't know why it was using a flash on Juliet. Maybe it wasn't reading her mind. Maybe it's just a perv and wanted photos.

I don't have a fully formed theory about the monster so I'm just gonna wait, watch, and see. And hope he eats Ben in the near future.

I do too. Although I feel somewhat bad about the tummyache that will give it, Ben is so unpalatable on so many levels.

TSTID

Plane crashes are chaotic by their nature. In crashes where there are survivors, people can be obliterated, and the people next to them uninjured. People can be killed in crash landings when the plane is left intact, and they can also survive being blown out of a plane at 30,000 feet. So, I'm not really sure that where they were when the plane crashed will, in the end, mean anything.

Yes, you are correct. Plane crashes are one big mess and there's no use in going on about that. I just thought it was interesting the placing of Jack after the crash.

True, and an excellent point. I think Jack is going to have to evolve in his relationship with whatever makes the island "different." And he's going to have to come to the realization that he too is "different," regardless of how logically he wants the world to work. I think there is some link between Jack and the island that we don't know, as both have rather extraordinary healing powers. Both can and have performed a miracle.

Jack has been accused of ignoring the Island's gift, but like Damon has said, "It's not his problem". I think that Jack is a very rational man. He doesn't necessarily believe in magic and fairytales (much like Locke in that way), but I think that there is a part of Jack that wants to believe but is desperately set against believing it. I rememeber his conversation with Desmond. Jack said that he made a promise that he couldn't keep, that he promised to fix Sarah, but couldn't and failed. Desmond, without any hesitation, asks "What if you did fix her?" Jack is dead-set against, saying that he didn't save her, and Desmond is still trying to get him to see the possibility by asking him flatly, "But what if you did?" Jack tells him he has no clue what he's talking about, because in Sarah's situation, that would be a miracle. That's it. The miracle. Locke has experienced a miracle thanks to the Island and Jack needs to be aware of that. He saved Sarah when every odd in the medical world was against her. They survived the 'plane crash from hell' when, in reality most, if not all of them, should have died or had more severe injuries besides a few scratches. Locke said it himself, "Do you really think all this is an accident -- that we, a group of strangers survived, many of us with just superficial injuries? Do you think we crashed on this place by coincidence -- especially, this place?". Miracles can happen.

I watched "Man of Science, Man of Faith" the other day and I believe that Jack is both a man of science and a man of faith in hiding in a sense. Yes, Locke says that he is a man of faith and labels Jack as a man of science, and throughout this episode, we see Jack and Locke butting heads as usual and I think that Locke is that voice that Jack needs to bring out that faithful side of him. When he realized that he saved Sarah, there was this pure surge of elation in the moment. It was a miracle and he was a huge part of that. Jack promised to save her and he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the odds were stacked against her, but he himself, was hoping for a miracle (but Jack would never admit that...not yet at least) and he performed a miracle.When they blow off the hatch door, Jack doesn't want to go into it and Locke asks him, "Why don't you want to go down there Jack?" and I don't think that Jack ever answers him, because I don't think he knows why he doesn't believe.

Jack is very 'different' (Achara said so herself) and I believe that Locke is going to help him see that. Locke...you've got work to do.

And yet, Yemi has much to answer for also, more than Eko in a way, I think. Eko is in the position he is in his life because he sacrificed his future for his brother...a brother who is, to put it kindly, a unapologetic, judgmental ingrate. He shows him no sympathy or mercy at all.

This is true. A young Eko killed a man to save his brother from doing it, to save his brother's soul. I don't necessarily think that Yemi is unapologetic per se. He went to stop Eko from getting on that plane, trying to help him (Yemi said, "You saved my life once and now I'm here to save yours...Please, Eko. Let me take your confession. Anything I can do, I will do. But please, don't go.") He was there giving Eko the chance to change, he was trying to save his soul this time, the way that his brother did for him so many years before. Their relationship is very complicated, intricate and beautifully f***ed up, but that's the beauty of it in a way. You're right, it's very similar to life...very ambivalent, with no easy answers.

I'll can cut her a break and not see her as a monster. But I wouldn't want her as a friend, sister, daughter, carpool buddy, or much of anything else.

She's a terrible person and I can never truly understand her, but I can see that she's just a small woman with a small heart and I can't see someone like that being a part of my life in any way.

She just doens't care that much and she's not a very thoughtful person at best. Aside from that, I agree with TSTID on pretty much everything about Sarah.

Okay, so I'm the only one who vehemently despises the woman. That's completely fine. ;)

I need to breathe first though because RL is stressing me out. I think I'll go on a trip to my photobucket for some R&R. ;)

Well, I'm sorry that RL is being a bitch. Photobucket is a great place to relax, unwind and see the sights (and I believe I know what sights you're setting your eyes on...:biggrin:)

Erica

Is there a list somewhere of Smokey non-believers? If so, sign me up. :frown: I still don't buy the very specific information everyone seems to have that Smokey "scans" people's brains and memories and learns their darkest secrets by flashing them or hovering near them or whatever the little guy wants to do at the time.

:roflmao: /11 yr. old me

I think TPTB are huge sci-fi geeks so pseudoscience is bound to happen. The mind scan as I remember it from The X Files is a very common device so I can understand why they'd go there.

Jack has been accused of ignoring the Island's gift, but like Damon has said, "It's not his problem". I think that Jack is a very rational man. He doesn't necessarily believe in magic and fairytales (much like Locke in that way), but I think that there is a part of Jack that wants to believe but is desperately set against believing it.

I'm not sure how much of a gift it is... I still can't make up my mind if the island is benevolent or not. There are two layers to this refusal to believe the way I see it. The first is the practical one. If Jack weren't the one responsible for the lives of 40 people, maybe he'd be more interested in exploring whatever's out there, but as it is, his problem is not dissecting the monster and understanding its mystique, his problem is getting people the hell AWAY from it, not running towards it.

The other layer is a deeper one, more personal for Jack. The very foundations of what he's supposed to believe in in life are shaky to say the least. People around him constantly give him reasons to not believe in them anymore but he still does. IMO, he's afraid to step out of reasoning and figuring things out sometimes because figuring things out and brining order to chaos is what's familiar to him and the unknown is one big scary place.


Okay, so I'm the only one who vehemently despises the woman. That's completely fine. ;)


I don't really hate fictional characters, though I do want to wring her neck whenever I rewatch ATOTC. It's just a brief, knee-jerk reaction stemming from overwhelming, blinding love for my TV boyfriend. But just like I can see what makes Jack break with Christian in that episode, I can see what makes her an uncaring :dog: and as long as I can make sense of things, rationalize them and bring order to chaos, I'm fine and I calm down just like that. :biggrin:

Well, I'm sorry that RL is being a bitch. Photobucket is a great place to relax, unwind and see the sights (and I believe I know what sights you're setting your eyes on...:biggrin:)

Mhmmm... Procrastination is a wonderful, wonderful thing, Especially when it involves Jack.

Jack has been accused of ignoring the Island's gift, but like Damon has said, "It's not his problem". I think that Jack is a very rational man. He doesn't necessarily believe in magic and fairytales (much like Locke in that way), but I think that there is a part of Jack that wants to believe but is desperately set against believing it.

I see Jack's attitude towards the island as a) don't have time to understand it, just figure out a way to get the hell off of it with my friends, and b) don't want to understand it because if he does, his whole worldview is destroyed, and for someone with his inflexible nature, this is a Bad Thing. So, I don't think he really wants to know any more than he does. We see a bit of how he reacts to this when, realizing he knows Desmond from off the island, he pursues him and seems to entertain ideas of killing him but then has a mini-nervous breakdown instead. It's one of my most favorite scenes in the entire series.

I rememeber his conversation with Desmond. Jack said that he made a promise that he couldn't keep, that he promised to fix Sarah, but couldn't and failed. Desmond, without any hesitation, asks "What if you did fix her?" Jack is dead-set against, saying that he didn't save her, and Desmond is still trying to get him to see the possibility by asking him flatly, "But what if you did?" Jack tells him he has no clue what he's talking about, because in Sarah's situation, that would be a miracle. That's it. The miracle.

...and I think that this is a preview of Desmond's powers also. I think Des is already demonstrating something of a gift here, which is why he insists on presenting the possibility to an unbelieving Jack.

Locke has experienced a miracle thanks to the Island and Jack needs to be aware of that.

...and of Rose's seeming spontaneous remission of her terminal cancer. And surely he can't have failed to notice how quickly Ben has recovered. Or how they are all so suspiciously healthy. There's a lot of things for him to notice if he was given the opportunity/chose to.

I watched "Man of Science, Man of Faith" the other day and I believe that Jack is both a man of science and a man of faith in hiding in a sense.

Yes, I think in the commentary on the DVD, it is said that the title refers solely to Jack.

Yes, Locke says that he is a man of faith and labels Jack as a man of science, and throughout this episode, we see Jack and Locke butting heads as usual and I think that Locke is that voice that Jack needs to bring out that faithful side of him.

I see Jack as too reluctant to ask questions about the island or to want to know more. Frankly, knowing more could help them understand what the reality of their predicament is. However, on the flip side, John is far too willing to totally lose himself to the island's powers, to give himself over to things he doesn't understand. Think about it...what are the odds that John will gain a real understanding of what the island is about by totally abandoning his self of himself and his reason to it? Look at the ongoing theme of John's flashbacks: his desperate longing to belong leads to endless exploitation and manipulations. What reason do we have to believe that exactly the same thing will not happen when it comes to the island and his relationship to whoever is running things there? I would wish to see Jack become more like Locke or take any kind of marching orders from that nutjob for anything, because I don't think anything good will come of Locke's relationship with his girlfriend, Ms. Island. I don't think Jack, in his current inflexible mindset, is in the position to know the answers, but I don't think Locke, with his extreme malleability and total lack of any coherent judgment is any closer than Jack is. Because Locke, for all his mystical mumbo jumbo, and seeming spiritual connection to Everything, is nothing more than the island's Vincent. :biggrin:

Jack is very 'different' (Achara said so herself) and I believe that Locke is going to help him see that. Locke...you've got work to do.

Of course things could change, but with Locke being what he is at the moment, I hope Jack stays well clear of him. He is bad news and very dangerous.

He was there giving Eko the chance to change, he was trying to save his soul this time, the way that his brother did for him so many years before.

You are right, that is a wonderful bit of symmetry I hadn't thought of.

Okay, so I'm the only one who vehemently despises the woman. That's completely fine. ;)

Oh. I don't think that's true. I have a high pain threshold when it comes to such characters. I didn't remotely hate Ana Lucia either. In fact, I thought she was a fine character.

TSTID

see the foxhussies needed my help with something...



Taking that symbolism one step further, "to key" is slang in Italian for -- well, you figure it out. Just ask Franci -- dico bene?

*cough* well...erm.. :lipsseal: true. lol

see the foxhussies needed my help with something...



*cough* well...erm.. :lipsseal: true. lol

It's so nice to know that when one is up working into the wee hours, that one may take a break, visit the Den and learn the truth about talking dirty in Italian. :biggrin:

TSTID

Has there ever been a more educational thread on any message board ever? I think not. :schmoll:

As promised, here's a transcript of the TTLG script in the Lost magazine. I skipped the first one because it isn't terribly revealing, Damon is just tickled with himself and amazed that IT'S A FLASHFORWARD, NOT A FLASHBACK! Which I find cute in retrospect because lostfan108 put a big damper on that parade for us internet crazies.


JACK:

I was hoping you'd heard. That maybe you'd go to the funeral.

And Kate's entire demeanour changes. ANGER in her eyes--

KATE:

Why would I go to the funeral?

And now Jack looks up at her, clearly ASHAMED as he says--

JACK:

I've been flying a lot.

KATE:

(confused)

What?

JACK:

The gold ticket they gave us. I use it. Every Friday night. I fly from L.A. To Tokyo. Or Singapore. (beat) Or Sydney... (another beat) Then I get off at the airport. Have a drink. Then I fly back.

Kate looks at him PUZZLED and asks the obvious--

KATE:

Why?

JACK:

Because I want to crash, Kate.

Close on Jack as he continues, too late to turn back from his CONFESSION NOW--

JACK:

And I don't care about the other people on board. Everytime I feel a bump. Some turbulence. I just close my eyes and I pray... (beat; emotional) I pray that I can go back.

Kate just looks at him. The MESS that he's become. And her sympathy now becomes SOMETHING ELSE--

KATE:

This isn't going to change--

And Jack steps forward now--IMPASSIONED--

JACK: I'm sick of lying. We made a mistake, Kate.

And there they GO. Because even if we don't know precisely when in the future we are, we get the sense they've had this particular argument BEFORE. And Kate doesn't want to have it again.

Kate just looks at him. Shakes her head.

KATE:

I have to go. (then) He'll be wondering where I am.

He? He WHO?

But before Kate can turn to go, Jack takes her hand. An attempt to recapture something--ANYTHING-- that will get her to change her mind. As he emphatically states with ALL THE INTENSITY HE CAN MUSTER:

JACK:

We weren't supposed to leave!

On Kate. Her eyes welling now. But she can't do this. She can't. But before she goes, she responds, emphatic herself.

KATE:

Yes, we were.

And with that she turns around and starts to get back to her car. But Jack isn't giving up yet--

KATE (contd)

Good bye, Jack.

On Kate as she walks away--trying to bottle it--tears coming as Kate pulls open the door. Gets in.

JACK:

Kate! We have to go back!

SLAM! Kate closes her door. GUNS THE ENGINE.

And we are MEGA-CLOSE ON JACK AS HIS FACE FILLS THE SCREEN IN ALL ITS AGONIZED GLORY--

JACK:

WE HAVE TO GO BACK!

And VWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH! As AN AIRPLANE LIFTS OFF THE RUNWAY BEHIND HIM AND TAKES OFF RIGHT OVER JACK'S HEAD...

Smash to black.

END OF SEASON THREE.

I skipped the first one because it isn't terribly revealing, Damon is just tickled with himself and amazed that IT'S A FLASHFORWARD, NOT A FLASHBACK!

My JackHussy sister pegged this 10 seconds into the episode and never read a "Lost" spoiler in her life. TPTB clued her in in the "Answers" special, where they said that the audience has a lot to go on to understanding the characters: their past, their present, and their future. That and Jack's condition on the plane indicated to her that it was a flash forward. As to who he was calling, in the beginning, she said, "Listen to how he talks to the person, it's obviously Kate." When we get to the part where he talks about Christian being upstairs, she goes, "Red herring to keep us thinking it's not a flash forward." So...there ya go. Some people just are too clever for their own good and spoiler themselves with the power of their own brains. :biggrin:

I will not be reading any more "Lost" spoilers. I heard about the FF in something that was not spoiler tagged, and it made me very, very, very sad. I will not be reading anything remotely spoilery again.

TSTID

I remember seeing him sitting in front of the fire in the middle of the jungle and he just starts crying, breaking down (more like breaking my heart...because that scene gets to me every single time), completely exposed, no one around to bug him about the water shortage, no one blaming him for a woman's death. I believe that that's the first time Jack cries after the crash and he had to get away from all the noise to finally break down.

That was a great Jack scene. He needed to get away from the beach and all the responsibility being heaped on him by the Castaways and find a quiet place to think, to wrap his mind around what he's been through (both on and off island) until he finally gives in to all that emotion that he has been keeping pent up inside him. Matthew played that scene beautifully.


You are correct, Jack has never been face-to-face with Smokey, but I was just pointing out that Jack knows of its existence and it's not his problem to deal with it. About the cockpit encounter, I don't think that was Smokey that ripped the pilot out. When I see the pilot all bloody and chewed up in that tree at the end of the episode, I think that it's something else entirely. I see how Eko died and he was basically thrown around until he was limp and lifeless, but the pilot looked like he was mauled and almost swallowed but was spit out (I know...the imagery...sorry guys...) for some reason. I could be wrong. :shrug: You could be right, but I have a feeling it was Smokey if only because then there is ANOTHER monster on the island capable of ripping a man out of cockpit, slashing his midsection open, and then flinging him into a 30 foot tree like a rag doll. That would not be good.

I believe that Jack has indeed seen Smokey up close. He sees it when Locke is being dragged through the jungle, and when it flees when disrupted by the dynamite.

Yeah, but he just saw wisps of smoke. I think you're right, TSTID, and that Jack DID see the smoke, but I was referring more to what Mr. Eko saw, and Locke, and Kate and Juliet: This massive column of smoke that moves and halts and attacks as a full entity. Jack hasn't seen that yet.

I recall Locke asking Kate if she saw that he was pulled into the hole by a column of black smoke, and she nodded her head "yes," and he said, "I wonder what Jack thinks he saw." Since Jack has not seen Smokey in its full imposingly massive glory that he is still able write it off as stress and heat exhaustion.

For what it's worth, which is probably not much because my "Lost" plot prognostications are usually highly incorrect :) , I also think Smokey had a look into Jack's mind very early on...say, right before the "camera" starts rolling in the pilot. Jack doesn't remember it, of course, because he's passed out at the time, but I think that is where the island conjures Christian from (complete with the sound of ice rattling in a glass) in White Rabbit. Ooohh, nice theory. I like it. In fact, now that I think about it, Jack looks like he was startled awake. Also, Jack was the first person of the Castaways to start seeing Smokey, at least as far as we know. If this is true, then I'm curious as to why Smokey would seek out Jack first. I mean, Jack had several premonitions of his father, not just one.

On an unrelated note, I believe that Sarah comes down to the hospital to see Jack because she was called and she is legitimately concerned, but once she sees he's OK, she doesn't want to get involved. I know what you're saying, but the problem I have with her is that she makes the trip to the hospital in the middle of the night, VERY pregnant, only to refuse him a ride home as inappropriate. I think she wanted Jack to see that she was pregnant. Of course, this is assuming that they never saw each other prior to that meeting, but judging from Jack's reaction, I don't think he knew.

Anyway, I think there is still some feeling there for him on her part. I think you're right. I do think she has some feelings for Jack, but she constantly seems to to twist those feelings into pity somehow that just infuriates me. Just stay away from him, Sarah :mad: Me, I might or might not have chauffered him anywhere myself, I'm not sure, but I would at the very least have called him a cab, and ensured that he got in it and safely on his way. But then I think I'm probably a nicer person than Sarah is. Which really isn't that hard when you think about it. Exactly. I would have been much better with "I don't think it's appropriate, but I'll call a cab for you and make sure you get home." THAT would have at least made her a decent, caring human being - - alas, she is not.

Fire away! I don't really hate Sarah all that much, and will happily take on the Devil's Advocate Defender of Sarah position that has been advertised. I've got my asbestos undies on, and I can take it! :biggrin: Well, you did fine. I, too, think that she may still have feelings for Jack, which can't be good for him at all. I just find her so selfish and deceitful and condescending that she just infuriates me. I didn't mind her in the first season, but now that I've gotten to know her better, I really dislike her intensely.

It's interesting to note that in chasing down the apparition of his father (that I believe to have been caused by Smokey), Jack is nearly killed by falling off a cliff. Then, of course, he's led to water, so mixed messages there. But it's not, overall hostile to him because we've seen what happens when it is (Eko, the pilot). Agreed. I think Smokey studies the subjects first. I don't think that Smokey was trying to lure Jack to his death. I think Jack just tripped and fell. Ultimately, I think Smokey was bringing Jack to the caves, not necessarily to find the water, but to find the coffin. Afterall, Smokey was taking the form of his father. I think it knew Jack was haunted. Of course, it didn't help that the coffin was empty. That's not exactly closure, Mr. Smokey! You're not really helping here.

I don't think Smokey attacked him, I think Locke was right and that it probably would not have hurt him. The island loves Locke, and we know that Smokey looked "beautiful" and like a shining light to him. I think it is benevolently inclined towards him, for whatever reason. I think it was attacking Locke. In the first encounter, Locke had a "good" experience with Smokey. However, in that second encounter, it was a whole different story. Locke looked terrified, which is why he started running away. It seems that something changed in that relationship big time. Most importantly, Jack SAW the terror in Locke's face, and then saw Locke get grabbed and dragged through the jungle and into that hole. This is why, after witnessing all this, when Jack hears Locke say, "Let me go, it won't hurt me," Jack was ready to fit him with a straight jacket. For Jack, Smokey has been nothing but violent towards people. Once again, if Locke knows a different truth, he's not sharing it with anyone.


True, and an excellent point. I think Jack is going to have to evolve in his relationship with whatever makes the island "different." And he's going to have to come to the realization that he too is "different," regardless of how logically he wants the world to work. I think there is some link between Jack and the island that we don't know, as both have rather extraordinary healing powers. Both can and have performed a miracle. Again, I am ready to accept that I am totally wrong, but I can't believe that that connection is a coincidence at this point.

I agree. Jack is fighting the idea that the island is different, and that Locke's words that "they were brought here for a reason - a purpose," is crazy. However, it appears in the FF that Jack does now believe in something about the island.

I don't know if Jack has any healing powers, but that sounds really intriguing, and more importantly, it would SO freak Jack out. I would LOVE to see that scene when he finds out (if it's true, of course).:biggrin:


I'm not sure how much of a gift it is... I still can't make up my mind if the island is benevolent or not. There are two layers to this refusal to believe the way I see it. The first is the practical one. If Jack weren't the one responsible for the lives of 40 people, maybe he'd be more interested in exploring whatever's out there, but as it is, his problem is not dissecting the monster and understanding its mystique, his problem is getting people the hell AWAY from it, not running towards it.

I think that's very true. Jack can't indulge in "exploring" because, unfortunately, the great big boulder of "responsibility" has been settled firmly on his shoulders. If there was another doctor or someone else that the Castaways turned to for help, other than Jack, then I think Jack would be very interested in exploring the unknown aspects of the island. Unfortunately, that's not a option for him.

As promised, here's a transcript of the TTLG script in the Lost magazine. I skipped the first one because it isn't terribly revealing, Damon is just tickled with himself and amazed that IT'S A FLASHFORWARD, NOT A FLASHBACK! Which I find cute in retrospect because lostfan108 put a big damper on that parade for us internet crazies.I LOVE the script transcripts, so thank you very much for that, Claudia.

That was a great Jack scene. He needed to get away from the beach and all the responsibility being heaped on him by the Castaways and find a quiet place to think, to wrap his mind around what he's been through (both on and off island) until he finally gives in to all that emotion that he has been keeping pent up inside him. Matthew played that scene beautifully.

That's the scene where Jack made a hussy out of me. Absolutely broke my heart. He's exhausted, grief-stricken, and afraid. I don't believe we've ever really seen him show these things in such an unadorned, unguarded way since, which is frankly, very, very sad.


This massive column of smoke that moves and halts and attacks as a full entity. Jack hasn't seen that yet.

I think he knows exactly what he's dealing with there, as he's seen what it did to the pilot, heard it and felt the ground shake. I'm not sure he needs to actually see the whole floor show Smokey puts on to appreciate its power.

Ooohh, nice theory. I like it. In fact, now that I think about it, Jack looks like he was startled awake. Also, Jack was the first person of the Castaways to start seeing Smokey, at least as far as we know. If this is true, then I'm curious as to why Smokey would seek out Jack first. I mean, Jack had several premonitions of his father, not just one.

I am convinced that Jack is the first to be scanned by Smokey, but doesn't Locke get the full-blown Smokey experience before Jack starts seeing his father? I don't remember the exact order in which that happens, but Smokey at some point very early on, I think it must be before "White Rabbit" shows itself to Locke as a shining light. As for Jack, I have no idea what the island thinks of him. I can see the attraction to Locke, because his mind is like a lump of Play-Doh, ready to be formed by any force stronger than it is...which is pretty much everything. But Jack? I don't know why it would seek to influence him -- he's not the island's friend.

I know what you're saying, but the problem I have with her is that she makes the trip to the hospital in the middle of the night, VERY pregnant, only to refuse him a ride home as inappropriate.

I think she went thinking he might be badly injured, in which case she cares enough about him to go down there on his behalf. When she gets there and finds him with only a scratch, the situation changes, and she doesn't want to involve herself. I think it's a simple matter of her going down under one set of assumptions, being met with a different reality, and wanting to leave. I think it makes perfect sense, from her perspective.

I think she wanted Jack to see that she was pregnant. Of course, this is assuming that they never saw each other prior to that meeting, but judging from Jack's reaction, I don't think he knew.

I agree, he didn't know. But I think it's unlikely that she went to all the trouble you described just to show off her tummy. I think it more likely that she hurried to the hospital because she thought it was an actual emergency, and she cares about him enough to come down there under that set of circumstances.

I think you're right. I do think she has some feelings for Jack, but she constantly seems to to twist those feelings into pity somehow that just infuriates me.

Well, yeah, she condescends, doesn't she? But in this case, I think her reaction is similar to Kate's: a shocked kind of pity at what a wreck he is. I don't think it's all that unnatural because, well, flash forward Jack is pretty pathetic. Pathetic...yet eminently doable.

THAT would have at least made her a decent, caring human being - - alas, she is not.

The fact that she came down at all shows her to have decency in her, to my mind, but in the end, she can't summon enough of the stuff to be of any meaningful assistance to Jack. This is true of virtually everyone in Jack's life, which is really a big part of Jack's tragedy. He gives his all to others again and again, but gets relatively little back. That's one of the few things in Kate's favor. She has shown herself repeatedly willing to risk herself for Jack, even if she doesn't often "have his back" like he would like her to.

That's not exactly closure, Mr. Smokey! You're not really helping here.

Smokey is, in my opinion, right up there with Sarah and Cindy the Stewardess in the "Unhelpful Load" category. It doesn't really do much for anyone but chase them around, make a lot of noise, and take the odd picture or two. Not a helpful creature.

I think it was attacking Locke. In the first encounter, Locke had a "good" experience with Smokey. However, in that second encounter, it was a whole different story. Locke looked terrified, which is why he started running away. It seems that something changed in that relationship big time. Most importantly, Jack SAW the terror in Locke's face, and then saw Locke get grabbed and dragged through the jungle and into that hole. This is why, after witnessing all this, when Jack hears Locke say, "Let me go, it won't hurt me," Jack was ready to fit him with a straight jacket. For Jack, Smokey has been nothing but violent towards people. Once again, if Locke knows a different truth, he's not sharing it with anyone.

Yes, but if Smokey had wanted Locke dead, Locke would have been dead. It made no attempt to rend, spindle, or mutilate Locke -- it merely grabbed him and attempted to drag him into a hole, which is a very different kettle of fish from what it does to Eko and the pilot. Locke is afraid because instead of appearing like a bright light, it grabs him and makes off with him. This frightens him because it's frightening, but isn't necessarily of any violent intent. Again, if it meant to hurt him, it would have. But it doesn't and Jack holds his own against it in the little tug o' war for Locke. Do you think Jack is stronger than Smokey? I don't. I think Smokey was being gentle because it didn't wish to harm Locke physically. I think Locke is still very much in the island's, and Smokey's good graces.

However, it appears in the FF that Jack does now believe in something about the island.

He not only believes it, he clearly knows it to be true. Which is a huge change for him. I can't wait to see how he got there.

I don't know if Jack has any healing powers, but that sounds really intriguing, and more importantly, it would SO freak Jack out. I would LOVE to see that scene when he finds out (if it's true, of course).:biggrin:

They use the term "miracle" to describe Jack's healing of Sarah. Repeatedly. That's not an accident. For what it's worth, I think the brings Charlie back also. That little guy was dead, and had been hanging up there for a while. It takes time to turn all those colors...for your fingers to turn those colors.

TSTID

That's the scene where Jack made a hussy out of me. Absolutely broke my heart. He's exhausted, grief-stricken, and afraid. I don't believe we've ever really seen him show these things in such an unadorned, unguarded way since, which is frankly, very, very sad.

Yeah, that's the scene that hooked me too. There's something about the tough, strong guy who is also vulnerable and afraid. Yummy combination.

I think he knows exactly what he's dealing with there, as he's seen what it did to the pilot, heard it and felt the ground shake. I'm not sure he needs to actually see the whole floor show Smokey puts on to appreciate its power. He knows something's up, but I don't think Jack is ready to accept a big black, mystical column of smoke. I think Jack needs to see it, and to some extent, I think that's why the writers have NOT had Jack see anything truly supernatural yet. Once he sees it, he HAS to believe. I think the writers are waiting until next season for Jack to truly start to understand what he's up against. Right now, he just thinks the island is a bit "strange," but he has no idea how "special" it truly is.

I am convinced that Jack is the first to be scanned by Smokey, but doesn't Locke get the full-blown Smokey experience before Jack starts seeing his father? I don't remember the exact order in which that happens, but Smokey at some point very early on, I think it must be before "White Rabbit" shows itself to Locke as a shining light. Yeah, I can't remember either. I thought Jack saw the apparition first, but I could be wrong. I defer to the other Jack experts. :biggrin:

As for Jack, I have no idea what the island thinks of him. I can see the attraction to Locke, because his mind is like a lump of Play-Doh, ready to be formed by any force stronger than it is...which is pretty much everything. But Jack? I don't know why it would seek to influence him -- he's not the island's friend. Yeah, that's what intrigues me. Why does it have an interest in Jack?

I think she went thinking he might be badly injured, in which case she cares enough about him to go down there on his behalf. When she gets there and finds him with only a scratch, the situation changes, and she doesn't want to involve herself. When the hospital called her, she would have asked how serious it was, and could have been told it was not serious. I'm pretty sure she knew he was not badly injured. In any case, what's the point of going to see if he's injured, and then dumping his butt with no way home? The man was in the hospital being treated, and she did make the trip to see him, so at some point, you would think her brain would be able to register that he probably should not be driving himself home. The fact that Jack even asks for her help rather than risking driving himself home should tell her that he needs help. She worries that he might be badly injured and comes to see him, but doesn't have a problem with allowing him to operate a car after being injured (and/or drinking).

She's an idiot.

I agree, he didn't know. But I think it's unlikely that she went to all the trouble you described just to show off her tummy. I think she would definitely go through that trouble. It's the only thing I can think of for her to come to the hospital and then not want to take him home or arrange for him to get home. She wanted to SEE him or perhaps, she wanted him to see her.

Pathetic...yet eminently doable. Always. :biggrin:

The fact that she came down at all shows her to have decency in her, to my mind, but in the end, she can't summon enough of the stuff to be of any meaningful assistance to Jack. But that's the whole point. Having decency is BEING decent. I think it shows her to be more malicious in the sense that she does take the time to get up, dress, drive down to the hospital only to tell him that she won't take him home. How do you refuse anyone who has suffered any type of accident when they ask you for assistance? How does she know that he doesn't have a head injury? And if she DOES think he's been drinking, and he's ASKING her to drive him home, and she still refuses, then she's heartless. No decent human being would ever do that. Sarah,:mad: on the other hand . . . .

This is true of virtually everyone in Jack's life, which is really a big part of Jack's tragedy. He gives his all to others again and again, but gets relatively little back. That's one of the few things in Kate's favor. She has shown herself repeatedly willing to risk herself for Jack, even if she doesn't often "have his back" like he would like her to. True. I would like for Jack to have someone in his life for once who just treats him well. Is that too much to ask. :frown:

Yes, but if Smokey had wanted Locke dead, Locke would have been dead. It made no attempt to rend, spindle, or mutilate Locke -- it merely grabbed him and attempted to drag him into a hole, which is a very different kettle of fish from what it does to Eko and the pilot. True. If it wanted Locke dead, he would be dead. However, Smokey was clearly upset, and if I were Locke, I don't think I would want to be dragged into a small black hole by a big black column of smoke, but that's just me. Locke is a whole different mind.

But it doesn't and Jack holds his own against it in the little tug o' war for Locke. Do you think Jack is stronger than Smokey? I don't. I think Smokey was being gentle because it didn't wish to harm Locke physically. I think Locke is still very much in the island's, and Smokey's good graces. Agreed. Actually, if Smokey wanted, he could of had both of his "men" in that black hole. ;) Okay, I think I need to go outside for a while.

He not only believes it, he clearly knows it to be true. Which is a huge change for him. I can't wait to see how he got there. Oh, I know. Something has clearly happened to Jack to turn his whole belief system upside down.

They use the term "miracle" to describe Jack's healing of Sarah. Repeatedly. That's not an accident. For what it's worth, I think the brings Charlie back also. That little guy was dead, and had been hanging up there for a while. It takes time to turn all those colors...for your fingers to turn those colors. I never associated "miracle" with Jack, specifically, with regard to Sarah's:mad: accident. Mostly, because it all happened off island. However, you may have a point. Maybe Jack's healing qualities are what the island is interested in, but then again, if it already HAS the ability to heal, why would it be interested in Jack?

*knocks politely*

If I may interrupt for a moment... I had this long, Serious Fan post all typed up..

But.. but... but... (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/thumbnails-195.html)

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

I'm sure you understand. :redface:

I see Jack's attitude towards the island as a) don't have time to understand it, just figure out a way to get the hell off of it with my friends, and b) don't want to understand it because if he does, his whole worldview is destroyed, and for someone with his inflexible nature, this is a Bad Thing. So, I don't think he really wants to know any more than he does.

You're absolutely correct. Jack's attitude towards the island is a) he doesn't have time to understand it and b) doesn't want to understand it because it will screw with his head and make him question his most basic beliefs. I think that Jack thinks that he knows what he's up against (In "Walkabout' he said to Kate, "You know what's out there" and in "Exodus" he told Locke, "It was gonna kill ya"). I think that Jack has some idea as to what he is facing but he doesn't want to know anymore about it and doesn't care to learn anything new about it.

...and I think that this is a preview of Desmond's powers also. I think Des is already demonstrating something of a gift here, which is why he insists on presenting the possibility to an unbelieving Jack.

Yes. If you listen closely, Desmond tells Jack that he's training for the sail-race around the world, in order to prove to Penny's father that he's worthy of his daughter, and to win Penny's love. This is obviously after he meets Ms. Hawking in the jewelry store (and she tells him about the sail-race, the island, the hatch, the button, the fail-sake key, basically tells him that he's not supposed to marry Penny, that he's supposed to walk out the door and if he doesn't do all this, we're all dead) and after he breaks it off with Penny, which is why he's training in the first place, to win her back. So in that scene, Desmond has some idea about his powers, and just like how Ms. Hawking suddenly appeared to enlighten him about what he's meant to do, he's there for Jack to inform him of what he's already done, but doesn't believe he's done, which is perform a miracle. Desmond knows more than he's saying or alluding to in that scene.

...and of Rose's seeming spontaneous remission of her terminal cancer. And surely he can't have failed to notice how quickly Ben has recovered. Or how they are all so suspiciously healthy. There's a lot of things for him to notice if he was given the opportunity/chose to.

Okay, this is very interesting because the moment Desmond comes into contact with anyone outside the hatch, he thinks they're all ill and what-not. I mean, the hatch door had QUARANTINE spray-painted onto it, so what is up with that? Jack did say, "It says quarantine on the inside of the hatch to keep you down here. To keep you scared" and that's not exactly a bad or inconceiveable option. I think that the Island has some way of protecting its inhabitants, seeing their ailments and helping them to overcome them. These ailments can be physical and emotional, but I'm just thinking out loud as always.

I see Jack as too reluctant to ask questions about the island or to want to know more. Frankly, knowing more could help them understand what the reality of their predicament is. However, on the flip side, John is far too willing to totally lose himself to the island's powers, to give himself over to things he doesn't understand.

That's the problem with wanting to know more about the Island because once you bite, it bites back, once you test it, it tests you. Look at Locke. He's been so cocky and adament about knowing the Island and trusting the Island, and it's come back to bite him repeatedly. Jack would rather cut his losses and be happy that he wasn't the one pulled from the cockpit and filleted like a trout. He doesn't want to understand because of all he's seen of Smokey and the Island, danger and violence is left in its wake. Maybe that's why Locke is so convinced, because he's seen the good and the bad in the Island, but he knows he's not even sure of himself.

Of course things could change, but with Locke being what he is at the moment, I hope Jack stays well clear of him. He is bad news and very dangerous.

Yes, Locke is a very dangerous man and I would love it if he and Jack drew a line in the sand and said "I'm here and you're there", but maybe, in due time, he'll do Jack a favor, he'll help him to see the Island in all its glory, but how can you explain what you don't understand? So it's going to take awhile for Locke to get there, but I'm not banking on the fact that he'll figure it all out himself either, he'll need some help ("I can't do this alone, Jack. I don't want to. It's a leap of faith, Jack.").

You could be right, but I have a feeling it was Smokey if only because then there is ANOTHER monster on the island capable of ripping a man out of cockpit, slashing his midsection open, and then flinging him into a 30 foot tree like a rag doll. That would not be good.
You're right. If there are two gigantors that are capable of that, then may God help them all.

I know what you're saying, but the problem I have with her is that she makes the trip to the hospital in the middle of the night, VERY pregnant, only to refuse him a ride home as inappropriate. I think she wanted Jack to see that she was pregnant. Of course, this is assuming that they never saw each other prior to that meeting, but judging from Jack's reaction, I don't think he knew.

I agree with this. I just don't see why if it was so inappropriate to be seen with him, then why care if he's in pain or hurt? Why go down there in the first place with your very pregnant midsection and rub it in his face that you're happy and he's not? It's obvious in "The Hunting Party" that Sarah desperately wanted kids and Jack was afraid of being a father (damn... that Christian did one serious number on Jack's psyche). I don't think that they've seen each other since Jack got rescued. I mean, she looked pretty shocked to see him in such a state and he looked very surprised to see that she's got a baby on the way. I hate the woman. She's a smug little person with a very little heart and she never deserved Jack in the first place. In season one, I didn't know much about her to judge her, but from what I've seen up to this point, she isn't deserving of such a man as Jack, as flawed as he is, she never deserved him.

I agree. Jack is fighting the idea that the island is different, and that Locke's words that "they were brought here for a reason - a purpose," is crazy. However, it appears in the FF that Jack does now believe in something about the island.

Jack in the FF has definitely turned over a new leaf and I want to know what he's seen and what he's done to bring on such a change in perspective. Only time will tell....

*knocks politely*

If I may interrupt for a moment... I had this long, Serious Fan post all typed up..

But.. but... but... (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/thumbnails-195.html)

I'm sure you understand. :redface:

Oh yes...very understandable. I wish he was in my vantage point at all times, in the flesh. Good god....:wub:


Erica

*knocks politely*

If I may interrupt for a moment... I had this long, Serious Fan post all typed up..

But.. but... but... (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/thumbnails-195.html)

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

:thud:

I'm sure you understand. :redface:


oh...

:drool:

Yeah, I can't remember either. I thought Jack saw the apparition first, but I could be wrong. I defer to the other Jack experts. :biggrin:

Locke tells Jack in WR he looked into the eye of the island and I think his Smokey sighting is during the boar hunt... or... you know... earlier than WR in any case...

I'm sure I'll remember later. I... I'm just... not there yet (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-195-24.html)...

The scene with Sarah was actually realistically written, imo. She was listed as his contact person, but under the patient privacy law, she couldn't be told anything about his condition. All she could be told was that he was in the hospital and she was listed as his contact.

She wouldn't have known if she was going to ID a corpse or see someone in ICU or a heart attack victim or something not very serious at all. So she goes, discovers he's not in a life/death situation and makes it clear to him that she doesn't want to continue to be involved with his life. Her being pregnant was just an incidental. She wasn't coming there to fluant her pregnancy. She was coming because the hospital called her. It's just that simple.

I think a lot of divorced women would do the same thing. You get a call about a person you once loved, you are told he is in the hospital, you can't learn anything more about his condition unless you come there, you are told you are listed as his contact person. So, you go. It would have been completely heartless of Sarah to NOT go. But once she realized that he was going to be fine, she didn't want to get involved again. Besides, I would suspect that the father of her baby drove her there and was waiting for her. How out of place would it have been to bring Jack out, say, "Here's the guy I was married to. Let's take him back to his place" when he was perfectly capable of calling a cab and getting home on his own?

Sarah behaved perfectly rationally in that scene since she no longer loves Jack.
If she were still in love with him, then yes, I would say she was quite cold. But I don't think we are to believe that she still loves Jack. I think the whole scene was to show us how truly isolated Jack had become. The woman he was married to has moved on and in the next scene we realize that Kate has moved on as well. Of course, we know that's not the end of the show, but at this point in the story, Jack literally has no one who cares for him.

I LOVE the script transcripts, so thank you very much for that, Claudia.

My pleasure. Have I gushed lately about how much I love this thread? No? Well, I love it like a fat kid loves cake. Chocolate cake. :group: And I have to go on vacation in a few hours (no, that's the appropriate verb since they sort of ordered me to take the week off), but I have a feeling I won't stay away for too long. :biggrin:

I won't rewatch anymore episodes until I'm back, which I'm sure is a relief. :biggrin: You can go ahead and rewind, but most importantly, be your studious selves and continue to be the most exquisite art critics on the whole internet. :smart: ;)


I will not be reading any more "Lost" spoilers. I heard about the FF in something that was not spoiler tagged, and it made me very, very, very sad. I will not be reading anything remotely spoilery again.

I'm sorry if we spoiled it for you. :redface: I thought that comment was pretty transparent too and there'd been theories floating around.

That's the scene where Jack made a hussy out of me. Absolutely broke my heart.

Oh, we all have those moments... (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/upsetschnozz.jpg):thud:

Yes, but if Smokey had wanted Locke dead, Locke would have been dead. It made no attempt to rend, spindle, or mutilate Locke -- it merely grabbed him and attempted to drag him into a hole, which is a very different kettle of fish from what it does to Eko and the pilot. Locke is afraid because instead of appearing like a bright light, it grabs him and makes off with him. This frightens him because it's frightening, but isn't necessarily of any violent intent. Again, if it meant to hurt him, it would have. But it doesn't and Jack holds his own against it in the little tug o' war for Locke. Do you think Jack is stronger than Smokey? I don't.

Well, Smokey has been conveniently wussy with the fence and mmmmm (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/Dynamitestrip.jpg)... :biggrin: Oh, shush, I know you're right, but I'm trying to have my fill before I leave.

They use the term "miracle" to describe Jack's healing of Sarah. Repeatedly. That's not an accident. For what it's worth, I think the brings Charlie back also. That little guy was dead, and had been hanging up there for a while. It takes time to turn all those colors...for your fingers to turn those colors.

Some fans theorized that Aaron was dead immediately after the crash and the Island revived him when Claire feels him kicking again. I don't know about that, but if it's true, then that's one special family. The Incredibles, only cuter. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/The%20Shephards/MLcrib.jpg)

There I go again. Dammit, I'm going through withdrawals already. :frown:

My pleasure. Have I gushed lately about how much I love this thread? No? Well, I love it like a fat kid loves cake. Chocolate cake. :group: And I have to go on vacation in a few hours (no, that's the appropriate verb since they sort of ordered me to take the week off), but I have a feeling I won't stay away for too long. :biggrin:

I won't rewatch anymore episodes until I'm back, which I'm sure is a relief. :biggrin: You can go ahead and rewind, but most importantly, be your studious selves and continue to be the most exquisite art critics on the whole internet. :smart: ;)



I'm sorry if we spoiled it for you. :redface: I thought that comment was pretty transparent too and there'd been theories floating around.



Oh, we all have those moments... (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/season2/upsetschnozz.jpg):thud:



Well, Smokey has been conveniently wussy with the fence and mmmmm (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/Dynamitestrip.jpg)... :biggrin: Oh, shush, I know you're right, but I'm trying to have my fill before I leave.



Some fans theorized that Aaron was dead immediately after the crash and the Island revived him when Claire feels him kicking again. I don't know about that, but if it's true, then that's one special family. The Incredibles, only cuter. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/The%20Shephards/MLcrib.jpg)

There I go again. Dammit, I'm going through withdrawals already. :frown:

:frown: :wavey: We'll miss you while you are away Professor.

I plan to submit several works of art for my classmates to critique during the next week.

Here is one of the earlier art pieces in my collection: :smart: Chrissy, I Can't Deal With This Pain! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/composition/?action=view&current=white-rabbitjackseyesmiirrorsoul.jpg)

My immediate reaction to this artwork was, "Oh, I'll personally do whatever I can to make you feel better." and "Ask and you shall receive!"

I Choose JACK!

shoe

The scene with Sarah was actually realistically written, imo. She was listed as his contact person, but under the patient privacy law, she couldn't be told anything about his condition. All she could be told was that he was in the hospital and she was listed as his contact.

She wouldn't have known if she was going to ID a corpse or see someone in ICU or a heart attack victim or something not very serious at all. So she goes, discovers he's not in a life/death situation and makes it clear to him that she doesn't want to continue to be involved with his life. Her being pregnant was just an incidental. She wasn't coming there to fluant her pregnancy. She was coming because the hospital called her. It's just that simple.

That's not true. I've had calls as the person of contact, and they can tell you that the person is not in intensive care or seriously ill. For one thing, they don't want you driving like a maniac to the hospital. The last thing they are going to do is allow you to believe that you may be indentifing a corpse. Granted, they can't give you the full blown explanation of a patient's medical history, but they could certainly tell you that the person is not seriously injured. As the listed person of emergency contact, they can divulge some information. In fact, if Jack never changed his emergency contact information, she was probably still listed as his wife, in which case they would definitely have given her information they he was not critical.

So, you go. It would have been completely heartless of Sarah to NOT go. But once she realized that he was going to be fine, she didn't want to get involved again. She shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. She could easily have called someone else or informed the hospital that they are no longer married. It's really quite simple:

"Is he seriously hurt?"
"Um, no, but you are listed as his emergency contact"
"Well, we are no longer married. So as long as he's okay, and he's not seriously injured, I just don't think it would be appropriate for me to come."

End of story. For whatever reason, a very pregnant Sarah:mad: got up in the middle of the night, got dressed, drove to the hospital, walked into Jack's room, and told him that he's on his own. Nice.

Besides, I would suspect that the father of her baby drove her there and was waiting for her. How out of place would it have been to bring Jack out, say, "Here's the guy I was married to. Let's take him back to his place" when he was perfectly capable of calling a cab and getting home on his own? Well, it's true that Sarah :mad: does love to bring her lover/husband with her whenever she talks to Jack, but I don't think that the father of her child would be waiting in the car. If anything, he would either 1) not let her go; or 2) be standing with her when she's talking to Jack. Afterall, he has no reason to hide anymore.

It was more inappropriate and utterly ludicrous to make the drive all the way to the hospital in the middle of the night only to tell Jack that she's not taking him home because it was "inappropriate." THAT is absolute idiocy at it's best.

Sarah behaved perfectly rationally in that scene since she no longer loves Jack.
If she were still in love with him, then yes, I would say she was quite cold. Sarah is a very cold fish, and I can't think of anyone who would go to a hospital to visit someone (friend, ex-lover, ex-husband), and then NOT drive that person home, or at the very least, ARRANGE to have him get a ride home. A sane and rational person would never have refused him. If anything, they would never have gone in the first place.

But I don't think we are to believe that she still loves Jack. Oh, I don't think they love each other, but there are still feelings between them. I'm just not sure what her feelings are with regard to Jack. It's certainly not to make him feel better.

I think the whole scene was to show us how truly isolated Jack had become. The woman he was married to has moved on and in the next scene we realize that Kate has moved on as well. Of course, we know that's not the end of the show, but at this point in the story, Jack literally has no one who cares for him.I think the scene was more to sell the story that it was a flashback and not a flashforward. It was the same red herring when Jack mentioned Christian.

We've seen his myriad (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-368-27.html) talents (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-368-106.html) as a boob adjustor (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-364-240.html) on many occasions, but here, he displays heretofore unseen talents as a boob assessor (http://matthew-fox.net/gallery/displayimage-195-10.html). Again, demonstrating superb hand technique. What a truly multitalented artist and great man he is.

TSTID

I need to come back to the Fuse more often:eek2:

I think a lot of divorced women would do the same thing. You get a call about a person you once loved, you are told he is in the hospital, you can't learn anything more about his condition unless you come there, you are told you are listed as his contact person. So, you go. It would have been completely heartless of Sarah to NOT go. But once she realized that he was going to be fine, she didn't want to get involved again. Besides, I would suspect that the father of her baby drove her there and was waiting for her. How out of place would it have been to bring Jack out, say, "Here's the guy I was married to. Let's take him back to his place" when he was perfectly capable of calling a cab and getting home on his own?

I hadn't even thought of that! In a way, she might have even been protecting him. Seeing Sarah with her family could stir feelings of loneliness/depression that wouldn't have helped the situation he was in.

Do we know how long it's been since Sarah and Jack got divorced? She's still on his contact list, and so it seems like if they had been divorced for over a few months, he would have changed that.

The scene with Sarah was actually realistically written, imo. She was listed as his contact person, but under the patient privacy law, she couldn't be told anything about his condition. All she could be told was that he was in the hospital and she was listed as his contact.

She wouldn't have known if she was going to ID a corpse or see someone in ICU or a heart attack victim or something not very serious at all. So she goes, discovers he's not in a life/death situation and makes it clear to him that she doesn't want to continue to be involved with his life. Her being pregnant was just an incidental. She wasn't coming there to fluant her pregnancy. She was coming because the hospital called her. It's just that simple.

I think a lot of divorced women would do the same thing. You get a call about a person you once loved, you are told he is in the hospital, you can't learn anything more about his condition unless you come there, you are told you are listed as his contact person. So, you go. It would have been completely heartless of Sarah to NOT go. But once she realized that he was going to be fine, she didn't want to get involved again. Besides, I would suspect that the father of her baby drove her there and was waiting for her. How out of place would it have been to bring Jack out, say, "Here's the guy I was married to. Let's take him back to his place" when he was perfectly capable of calling a cab and getting home on his own?

Sarah behaved perfectly rationally in that scene since she no longer loves Jack.
If she were still in love with him, then yes, I would say she was quite cold. But I don't think we are to believe that she still loves Jack. I think the whole scene was to show us how truly isolated Jack had become. The woman he was married to has moved on and in the next scene we realize that Kate has moved on as well. Of course, we know that's not the end of the show, but at this point in the story, Jack literally has no one who cares for him.

I think you have a totally different perspective on Sarah than most of us who are actual fans of Jack. Sarah showed up to either rub her life in Jack's face, or to satisfy her curiosity about this man she was once married to. She had no kindness in her heart at all in that scene. And I didn't get that the story pointed out that Kate had "moved on". But this isn't a shipper forum, so that's all I'll say about that. Please don't come to this thread to purposely try and get the members here upset Perdue.

I Choose Jack!

shoe

Smokey is, in my opinion, right up there with Sarah and Cindy the Stewardess in the "Unhelpful Load" category. It doesn't really do much for anyone but chase them around, make a lot of noise, and take the odd picture or two. Not a helpful creature. Smokey will be so disappointed to hear that assessment. After all, he tried so hard to make friends with Juliet & Kate. :rolleyes: Maybe he's kinda like the Abominable Snow Monster, and just needs some de-toothing. Then it'll be fetching things from the tops of trees for the Losties left and right. I mean, Locke could already be Cornelius.

They use the term "miracle" to describe Jack's healing of Sarah. Repeatedly. That's not an accident. For what it's worth, I think the brings Charlie back also. That little guy was dead, and had been hanging up there for a while. It takes time to turn all those colors...for your fingers to turn those colors.

TSTID I'm not really drawn in by the idea of Jack having "special" healing powers, but if that's what ends up being revealed, then cool. I thought Sarah was a miracle pulled off by Desmond (since Jack closed her up with the knowledge that the operation was not a success; they must have had some way of knowing that). And Charlie's revival? TV. People almost always get revived by manual CPR on TV.

My JackHussy sister pegged this 10 seconds into the episode and never read a "Lost" spoiler in her life. TPTB clued her in in the "Answers" special, where they said that the audience has a lot to go on to understanding the characters: their past, their present, and their future. That and Jack's condition on the plane indicated to her that it was a flash forward. As to who he was calling, in the beginning, she said, "Listen to how he talks to the person, it's obviously Kate." When we get to the part where he talks about Christian being upstairs, she goes, "Red herring to keep us thinking it's not a flash forward." So...there ya go. Some people just are too clever for their own good and spoiler themselves with the power of their own brains. :biggrin: I believe that sort of thing runs in the family.

I will not be reading any more "Lost" spoilers. I heard about the FF in something that was not spoiler tagged, and it made me very, very, very sad. I will not be reading anything remotely spoilery again. Me neither. I still relish the OMG! :eek2: moments I had in the Sixth Sense, Angel Heart, and the Crying Game. I'm sorry I didn't have the willpower to resist. So if you see me in the spoiler threads, please boot me out, :headslap: unceremoniously if necessary. I really don't want to dwell on what Darlton, Kristin, Ausiello, or some anonymous person with a website has to say if it's not already on screen.

who are actual fans of Jack.

I'm not sure how you define an "actual fan of Jack," but I believe him to be absolutely integral to the story of Lost, I think that whatever happens to Jack impacts what happens to everyone else on the island and off the island. I find Jack to be a fascinating character, well-written, well-constructed and well-acted by Matthew Fox. Just because I don't think that Sarah was being intentionally cold to him by coming to the hospital since she was listed as his contact person doesn't mean that I can't be supportive of the character of Jack as vital to LOST. (And what does my take on a Sarah/Jack scene have to do with shipping?)

I'm not sure how you define an "actual fan of Jack," but I believe him to be absolutely integral to the story of Lost, I think that whatever happens to Jack impacts what happens to everyone else on the island and off the island. I find Jack to be a fascinating character, well-written, well-constructed and well-acted by Matthew Fox. Just because I don't think that Sarah was being intentionally cold to him by coming to the hospital since she was listed as his contact person doesn't mean that I can't be supportive of the character of Jack as vital to LOST. (And what does my take on a Sarah/Jack scene have to do with shipping?)

For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with your defense of Sarah:mad:. I, of course, completely disagree with your take on it, as I stated in great detail above, but there are others who feel sympathy for her. I don't think I'm being too bull headed, only because I DID like her in the early flashbacks, but I really hated how she treated Jack in the season three episodes. She gets no sympathy from me.

Smokey will be so disappointed to hear that assessment. After all, he tried so hard to make friends with Juliet & Kate. :rolleyes: Maybe he's kinda like the Abominable Snow Monster, and just needs some de-toothing. Then it'll be fetching things from the tops of trees for the Losties left and right. I mean, Locke could already be Cornelius.

I would be as pleased as punch if "Lost" ended with Smokey putting the star on the island's Christmas tree, and everyone gathered 'round singing out a hearty "Mele Kalikimaka," but I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not be the case. Still, a girl can dream.

I'm not really drawn in by the idea of Jack having "special" healing powers, but if that's what ends up being revealed, then cool. I thought Sarah was a miracle pulled off by Desmond (since Jack closed her up with the knowledge that the operation was not a success; they must have had some way of knowing that). And Charlie's revival? TV. People almost always get revived by manual CPR on TV.

I don't see how Desmond had anything to do with Sarah's cure. That was Jack's work, Desmond just seems to have had a feeling about it. As Desmond does, about a lot of things. Again, they use the word "miracle" in regards to Jack's surgical feat, and do so repeatedly, so that's how I'm taking it. And it's in that context that I look at his revival of Charlie also. Again, it won't shock me to be wrong, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin:

I believe that sort of thing runs in the family.

Ha! If only! :biggrin:

TSTID

For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with your defense of Sarah:mad:. I, of course, completely disagree with your take on it, as I stated in great detail above, but there are others who feel sympathy for her.

I wasn't defending Sarah. I never thought she should have married Jack in the first place and he certainly shouldn't have married her. They were ill suited to each other from the very beginning. I was merely saying that they way the scene was written rang true to me. Had the sole intent been to just to hurt Jack, the writers could have come up with other, more painful scenarios. I think at least one of the reasons was to show that Jack had no friends at this point in his life (and that probably will change in the FFs.) and was forced to rely on an ex-wife as the only person who would come for him. It made his isolation and messed up state even more poignant, imo.


I've had calls as the person of contact, and they can tell you that the person is not in intensive care or seriously ill. For one thing, they don't want you driving like a maniac to the hospital. The last thing they are going to do is allow you to believe that you may be indentifing a corpse. Granted, they can't give you the full blown explanation of a patient's medical history, but they could certainly tell you that the person is not seriously injured. As the listed person of emergency contact, they can divulge some information. In fact, if Jack never changed his emergency contact information, she was probably still listed as his wife, in which case they would definitely have given her information they he was not critical.


The amount of information they give out depends entirely on how zealously the hospital is enforcing the Privacy Laws. I've had them tell me absolutely nothing other than the person was in the hospital and I've had them spill everything (against the law!) LA hospitals are quite zealous, I can tell you from personal experience.

I've got no problem with your discussion of Sarah either, Perdue. It makes a lot of sense that she would still be his emergency contact, because, well, even people who haven't just spent months on Craphole Island with smoke monsters and bug-eyed homicidal maniacs forget to update their forms with Human Resources.
Anyway, if her new man were waiting outside in the idling car, she would no doubt have taken the opportunity to rub that in his face like she did at the jail. And it would have given Darlton another lovely dialogue parallel for her to say "he'll be wondering where I am." No, she should have given the guy a ride or called him a cab (like she did at the police station) or called his mother.
She may have behaved rationally, but she didn't behave decently. There's a difference.

I wasn't defending Sarah.

You were definitely defending Sarah's actions for coming to the hospital, which is fine. I have no problem with it.

I never thought she should have married Jack in the first place and he certainly shouldn't have married her. They were ill suited to each other from the very beginning. I was merely saying that they way the scene was written rang true to me. Well, that's a whole different discussion, and imo, not related to the hospital scene, as it took place well after their breakup.

Had the sole intent been to just to hurt Jack, the writers could have come up with other, more painful scenarios. I think at least one of the reasons was to show that Jack had no friends at this point in his life (and that probably will change in the FFs.) and was forced to rely on an ex-wife as the only person who would come for him. It made his isolation and messed up state even more poignant, imo. I don't agree. I think it was all about the red herring for the flashforward. We'll just agree to disagree.

The amount of information they give out depends entirely on how zealously the hospital is enforcing the Privacy Laws. I've had them tell me absolutely nothing other than the person was in the hospital and I've had them spill everything (against the law!) LA hospitals are quite zealous, I can tell you from personal experience.You're referring to HIPAA, and that has more to do with personal medical history. However, people who are generally listed as an emergency contact are given privy to information about the well being of the person who is injured. If you had a different experience, then I certainly can't refute it. However, I, and other friends and family have never been denied to know the "emergency" situation as a contact person. We didn't get the full blown details, but I got enough to know if it was serious or not so serious.

Anyway, I think we are getting way off topic. I would much rather discuss Jack than Sarah. :mad:

I would be as pleased as punch if "Lost" ended with Smokey putting the star on the island's Christmas tree, and everyone gathered 'round singing out a hearty "Mele Kalikimaka," but I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not be the case. Still, a girl can dream.

You think Smokey is a good entity or a bad one? I can't decide yet. I think it genuinely wanted Mr. Eko to repent, and when he didn't, it killed him. Yet, I can't understand it's purpose for chasing Juliet and Kate. Juliet clearly was familiar with Smokey, as if she's seen it before, but then why would Smokey need to "take pictures of her" like he's never seen her before. Maybe it never got close enough before? [shrugs]

I don't see how Desmond had anything to do with Sarah's cure. That was Jack's work, Desmond just seems to have had a feeling about it. As Desmond does, about a lot of things. Again, they use the word "miracle" in regards to Jack's surgical feat, and do so repeatedly, so that's how I'm taking it. And it's in that context that I look at his revival of Charlie also. Again, it won't shock me to be wrong, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin: Yeah, I'm beginning to think there is more to Jack's healing ability than I had originally believed. The fact that "miracle" has been tossed around with reference to him in several instances is enough to make it something worth taking note.

Did you notice that Jack did a double take when he saw Penny's picture in the Hatch? Did I imagine that or did anyone notice that he seemed to recognize her?

I think you have a totally different perspective on Sarah than most of us who are actual fans of Jack. Sarah showed up to either rub her life in Jack's face, or to satisfy her curiosity about this man she was once married to. She had no kindness in her heart at all in that scene. And I didn't get that the story pointed out that Kate had "moved on". But this isn't a shipper forum, so that's all I'll say about that. Please don't come to this thread to purposely try and get the members here upset Perdue.

I Choose Jack!

shoe

Shoe, this is the Fox den, not the Jater couch, so unless Perdue (or someone else) comes in here to insult Jack or his fans, s/he is totally entitled to voice his/her opinion. This is a discussion board after all and you should embrace the diversity of opinions and not feel offended by it.

Just because someone has a different shipper preference can't mean they are excluded from certain threads.

Shoe, this is the Fox den, not the Jater couch, so unless Perdue (or someone else) comes in here to insult Jack or his fans, s/he is totally entitled to voice his/her opinion. This is a discussion board after all and you should embrace the diversity of opinions and not feel offended by it.

Just because someone has a different shipper preference can't mean they are excluded from certain threads.

Duly noted.

Au Revoir

I Choose Jack

shoe

She may have behaved rationally, but she didn't behave decently. There's a difference.
I will agree with you on that, absolutely! Her behavior was written plausibly, but even if it were a person I hated, I'd still have said something like, "I don't think it would be appropriate for me to take you home, but I'll call you a cab and wait until it comes."

The whole FF sequence, including the scenes with Sarah, was beautifully written to show Jack as a man who was a mess, who was totally alone and who is growing increasingly desperate. TPTB wanted us to talk about it and the characters during this entire endless hiatus and they have succeeded. I want to know what made Jack go so dark, why Kate didn't seem to have much regular contact with him, and why he thinks they have to go back. That last scene, with the airplane taking off over Jack's head, hooked me for S4 (Darn you, Darlton!!!)

That's not true. I've had calls as the person of contact, and they can tell you that the person is not in intensive care or seriously ill.

Not necessarily. When I was in a car accident, my parents asked about my condition and they refused to give them anything other than, "There's been an accident, please get here ASAP." They would have felt much better, particularly my dad, who drove 35 miles to the hospital from work, if they had known that I merely had a Jack-like cut on my head. But, no. They chose not to do that. I know of other similar instances, and also instances of the type you describe, where clarification was given so the emergency contact know what they were in for.

In my experience, hospitals in general are black holes of information, where information is jealously guarded, even when it's the patient's business, and there really is a need to know. I had to go and look up the terms I was hearing being thrown about to discover that my dad was dying. They simply wouldn't tell us, or him, give a realistic timeline, or any kind of honest assessment of what kind of quality of life he could expect. And this was from his GP to every specialist we had. It was like pulling teeth.

So, I had no problem with the concept of Sarah coming down there uninformed, seeing that everything was OK, and wanting to get out of Dodge. That's the kind of selfish, small-hearted coward of a chick she is, and those are the kinds of info hoarding fools that run hospitals, particularly the LA city hospitals, where it is not totally unheard of for people to be refused care and die on the waiting room floor, in full view of the security cameras. I can see people like that not being helpful to an emergency contact.

I did get a nifty Harry Potter-esque scar on my head though, right in the perfect spot. Of course I had to wait like 18 years for it to become trendy, but that's me. Ahead of the curve.

You think Smokey is a good entity or a bad one? I can't decide yet.

Because of the kind of superstitious, dark-minded, peasant-y creature my old Slavic blood has made me, I see everything that smacks of weird, wild, and strange as bad, so I think Smokey, the Others, Jacob, and every bit of the island's "specialness" as bad. Very bad. Like, "someone light some torches and let's go after it with a pitchfork" bad. And Jack is right to ignore it all and just try to get the hell away from there and forget about it. Barring that, he needs to do just what he's doing -- slamming all of the island's minions he can get his paws on up against some hard, flat surface and tell them to shut up. That's certainly what I would be doing.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think there is more to Jack's healing ability than I had originally believed. The fact that "miracle" has been tossed around with reference to him in several instances is enough to make it something worth taking note.

I have always had this theory, based on nothing in particular, that Jack is somehow of the island, and got whatever ability he has to do extraordinary things as a doctor from the island. Do I have theories as to how this happened? Oh yes, I do, and it involves laughable things like Christian perhaps having spent some time with the Dharma Initiative, and Jack possibly having been conceived on the island, and stuff like that, that people more mythologically in the know than I could probably puncture in about 5 nanoseconds.

Did you notice that Jack did a double take when he saw Penny's picture in the Hatch? Did I imagine that or did anyone notice that he seemed to recognize her?

I noticed his doubletake, but thought he was recognizing Desmond instead.

Although I like the idea of his hooking up with Penny to find the island again. That's another hope I'm clinging to for Season 4.

TSTID

My 2 cents on Smokey. I've kind of always seen him as a bit of a child. Mean but only in the same way a little kid can be mean by pulling the legs off a spider - not intentionally so. I think he likes to play tricks for his own amusement. I got the feeling he was playing with Eko when he pretended to be Yemi. That it wouldn't have mattered if he repented or not. I think he was playing with Jack when he tried to get him to run off a cliff. Sometimes he'll pick you up and shake you real hard just to see what'll happen. Sometimes, he'll try to drag you into his playhouse.

I've always thought that, in the Pilot, when Jack first opens his eyes and his pupil shrinks, it looks very much the way it would look if the black smoke were studying him intensely while he slept and then was startled when his eyes popped open. So, it's not that his pupil shrinks - it's the reflection of Smokey pulling away quickly upward. It would have happened so quickly and Jack would have been so disoriented, that it may not have registered on him. I like that idea anyway.

I also think Smokey and Vincent are buddies - every kid needs a dog right?

I will agree with you on that, absolutely! Her behavior was written plausibly, but even if it were a person I hated, I'd still have said something like, "I don't think it would be appropriate for me to take you home, but I'll call you a cab and wait until it comes."

Exactly. If she had said this, I would have been fine, but she didn't. She just ditched him, and that's why she's such a vile human being.

The whole FF sequence, including the scenes with Sarah, was beautifully written to show Jack as a man who was a mess, who was totally alone and who is growing increasingly desperate. TPTB wanted us to talk about it and the characters during this entire endless hiatus and they have succeeded. I want to know what made Jack go so dark, why Kate didn't seem to have much regular contact with him, and why he thinks they have to go back. That last scene, with the airplane taking off over Jack's head, hooked me for S4 (Darn you, Darlton!!!)I agree that the scenes, overall, were designed to ask the question as to what the heck happened to Jack? They certainly did their job because everyone is asking. I certainly am.


Not necessarily. When I was in a car accident, my parents asked about my condition and they refused to give them anything other than, "There's been an accident, please get here ASAP." They would have felt much better, particularly my dad, who drove 35 miles to the hospital from work, if they had known that I merely had a Jack-like cut on my head. But, no. They chose not to do that. I know of other similar instances, and also instances of the type you describe, where clarification was given so the emergency contact know what they were in for.

Well, I can only speak from my experience, and you can get them to tell you something if you threaten them. "If I drive down there and get into an accident, I will blame the hospital." Hospitals don't like lawsuits. Trust me, it works wonders. They may not give you everything, but they'll give you something. I should clarify that I usually got information if it wasn't that serious. Really serious injuries, they don't generally tell you over the phone.

As you stated, sometimes information is released, sometimes not. However, as I mentioned, if Sarah was listed as his wife (which I suspect), and as the wife of a surgeon and fellow doctor, they would have released the information to her. My sister-in-law is a nurse, and when it comes to "hospital family," they will bend the rules just like the cops and the fire department.

In my experience, hospitals in general are black holes of information, where information is jealously guarded, even when it's the patient's business, and there really is a need to know. I had to go and look up the terms I was hearing being thrown about to discover that my dad was dying. They simply wouldn't tell us, or him, give a realistic timeline, or any kind of honest assessment of what kind of quality of life he could expect. And this was from his GP to every specialist we had. It was like pulling teeth. They have no right to withhold your personal information. They may THINK they can, but they can't. Like I said, threatening always works. My best friend is a nurse, and she walks right into her father's room and grabs his medical chart from the foot of the bed to see the medications and doses he was on. Naturally, the nurse blew a fuse, but she told the nurse off, and when the nurse realized she was dealing with another nurse, she ran and got the doctor. It was quite an education, frankly.

So, I had no problem with the concept of Sarah coming down there uninformed, seeing that everything was OK, and wanting to get out of Dodge. That's the kind of selfish, small-hearted coward of a chick she is, We agree on the last point. ;)

I did get a nifty Harry Potter-esque scar on my head though, right in the perfect spot. Of course I had to wait like 18 years for it to become trendy, but that's me. Ahead of the curve. Happily, it didn't affect your ability to write and compose - which you do very nicely. :biggrin:

Because of the kind of superstitious, dark-minded, peasant-y creature my old Slavic blood has made me, I see everything that smacks of weird, wild, and strange as bad, so I think Smokey, the Others, Jacob, and every bit of the island's "specialness" as bad. Very bad. Like, "someone light some torches and let's go after it with a pitchfork" bad. And Jack is right to ignore it all and just try to get the hell away from there and forget about it. Barring that, he needs to do just what he's doing -- slamming all of the island's minions he can get his paws on up against some hard, flat surface and tell them to shut up. That's certainly what I would be doing. Yeah, I'm leaning towards evil in the sense of a bit dumb dog that chases people all over the island, but can't catch them. However, the apparitions, I believe, are coming from a higher power, perhaps Jacob. There seems to be two different forces at work on the island: One big bad *** monster, and the other - a judgemental imposing father figure.

That's my take on it, anyway.

I have always had this theory, based on nothing in particular, that Jack is somehow of the island, and got whatever ability he has to do extraordinary things as a doctor from the island. Do I have theories as to how this happened? Oh yes, I do, and it involves laughable things like Christian perhaps having spent some time with the Dharma Initiative, and Jack possibly having been conceived on the island, and stuff like that, that people more mythologically in the know than I could probably puncture in about 5 nanoseconds. Well, that's a doozy of a theory. It could prove true, you never know.

I noticed his doubletake, but thought he was recognizing Desmond instead.

Although I like the idea of his hooking up with Penny to find the island again. That's another hope I'm clinging to for Season 4. I thought he had already seen Desmond when he saw that picture. Man, I have to go back and freshen up on my Lost episodes.

Don't worry about Penny, she'll end up on the island at some point.

I just read the article in LOST magazine that contains bits of the script for the finale scene between Jack and Kate. Isn't it fun to read what was in the script and then see how the actors brought that to life? It really is a collaboration between the writers and the actors to make the characters so real...and have us care so much about what's going to happen next.

My 2 cents on Smokey. I've kind of always seen him as a bit of a child. Mean but only in the same way a little kid can be mean by pulling the legs off a spider - not intentionally so. I think he likes to play tricks for his own amusement. I got the feeling he was playing with Eko when he pretended to be Yemi. That it wouldn't have mattered if he repented or not. I think he was playing with Jack when he tried to get him to run off a cliff. Sometimes he'll pick you up and shake you real hard just to see what'll happen. Sometimes, he'll try to drag you into his playhouse.

That's a fascinating theory...I have assumed, I don't remember when I first had the thought, that Smokey is under the control of someone more powerful. The way it assumes shapes when it is physically in contact with people (with Locke and Eko, it had hand-like properties), I've just assumed it was being controlled in some virtual way by someone in a remote location. I have not thought about it being actually sentient in and of itself.

So, it's not that his pupil shrinks - it's the reflection of Smokey pulling away quickly upward. It would have happened so quickly and Jack would have been so disoriented, that it may not have registered on him. I like that idea anyway.

Well, we see from Jack's viewpoint that the sky over his head is empty, nothing but bamboo. So, if it was there, it left quickly. However, another thing I've long thought is...

I also think Smokey and Vincent are buddies - every kid needs a dog right?

...that Vincent is Smokey, and vice versa. I don't think Vincent is actually a dog. He has a thing for going missing at times when odd things happen, and for "testing" the character of the castaways (he brings Charlie heroin, he brings Hurley the keys to the van), he leads Shannon into the jungle where she meets an apparition of Walt, he leads Walt into the jungle, where a polar bear just happens to help he and his dad bond. :) I could go on, about how he's right there staring at Jack when Jack wakes up in the jungle, or the way he watches so intently as Jack, Kate, and Charlie make their way to the cockpit (and we all know what happened once they got out there). Too many coincidences involving that pooch if you ask me. I also could swear that I saw a painting of a yellow dog in Jacob's hillbilly shack. I'm telling you, that dog ain't a dog.

TSTID

That's a fascinating theory...I have assumed, I don't remember when I first had the thought, that Smokey is under the control of someone more powerful. The way it assumes shapes when it is physically in contact with people (with Locke and Eko, it had hand-like properties), I've just assumed it was being controlled in some virtual way by someone in a remote location. I have not thought about it being actually sentient in and of itself.

Maybe it's a mix of both. Sometimes Smokey's "leashed" and doing someone else's bidding and sometimes he's let loose to "play".



Well, we see from Jack's viewpoint that the sky over his head is empty, nothing but bamboo. So, if it was there, it left quickly. However, another thing I've long thought is...



...that Vincent is Smokey, and vice versa. I don't think Vincent is actually a dog. He has a thing for going missing at times when odd things happen, and for "testing" the character of the castaways (he brings Charlie heroin, he brings Hurley the keys to the van), he leads Shannon into the jungle where she meets an apparition of Walt, he leads Walt into the jungle, where a polar bear just happens to help he and his dad bond. :) I could go on, about how he's right there staring at Jack when Jack wakes up in the jungle, or the way he watches so intently as Jack, Kate, and Charlie make their way to the cockpit (and we all know what happened once they got out there). Too many coincidences involving that pooch if you ask me. I also could swear that I saw a painting of a yellow dog in Jacob's hillbilly shack. I'm telling you, that dog ain't a dog.

TSTID

Could be, could be.

And they scoff at me 'cause I think Christian's alive?:biggrin: :biggrin:

Maybe it's a mix of both. Sometimes Smokey's "leashed" and doing someone else's bidding and sometimes he's let loose to "play".


Oooooh, I like! I like! Mystery solved!

Could be, could be.

And they scoff at me 'cause I think Christian's alive?:biggrin: :biggrin:

Yeah, well I also am open to the possibility that there are people that we haven't seen living in the caves, collecting the kids' toys that we see both in Jack's cave and also in the polar bear's cave. Go ahead, scoff away, I can take it! :biggrin: :biggrin:

TSTID

I'm telling you, that dog ain't a dog.


Does this mean that meeting up with Smokey is a B*****. LOL!

Hey Foxes! :kiss:
I'm SO BEHIND on the re-wind and I'm really sorry I haven't participated as much as everyone else. This is completely O/T from what you guys have been discussing but - I've been going through the scripts working on a little project and in the White Rabbit script, I found myself so touched by what I was reading and I just needed to share it with you guys. Because ummm...its Jack. ;)

From the official Lost Script for White Rabbit:

-Jack’s Dad: Your heart’s in the right place. Sticking up for the little guy. But look what happened, You made the wrong call. You lost, buddy. You failed.

And let’s stop for a second here. Because this is one of those moments in your childhood. One of those moments where your folks say something that just never goes away. Something that sticks with you. The BECOMES you. And Jack is listening to every word of it.

Jack’s Dad: Boy was on my table today. Year younger than you, maybe. Bad Heart. And it was a real rough one, Jack. Got real hairy, real fast. People were looking to me to make decisions. What to do. How to do it. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day after that boy died, I was able to wash my hands, come home to dinner, watch Carol Burnett and laugh until my sides hurt. And how can I do that? Even when I fail—How do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes.

And his father actually puts his hand on Jack’s shoulder. He does love his son. This is said out of that love…no matter how cruel it sounds to us.

Jack’s Dad: Don’t choose, Jack. Don’t decide. Walk away from the fights. Because when you fail – when you make the wrong choice? Its gonna hurt. And buddy? When that hurt comes? You don’t have what it takes.

Jack absorbs that. And more importantly, because this is his father, because he is twelve, because this MUST be true…he BELIEVES it.


I had never read this before until today. And it moved me beyond belief. I never realized how much depth this episode had and how huge of a window it gave you into Jack’s soul and why he acts the way he does sometimes. What molded him into the amazing yet tragic man he is today. His father did love him. But keep this in mind and look how he approaches everything. The triangle and Sawyer’s impediment on he and Kate’s relationship and how most of the time, and I don’t blame him for this – he walks away from that fight and lets Kate make her choice.

Look at all the choices he’s had to make in his lifetime – to tell on his father, to marry Sarah even though he was hesitant about being a good husband, to become the leader of the Losties, when he saved Boone over Joanna, to give Claire a sedative instead of believing her about her attacker, to go along with Sayid’s plan to tell the others about Michael’s true intentions – and then look how far he has come and how he is owning his choices – to put his life on the line to save Kate and Sawyer, to leave Kate behind in that game room because he knew he had to if he was going to save her and everyone, to let Charlie dive to the Looking Glass, to let Sayid give his life if he needed to, to let Ben’s boys kill Jin, Bernard and Sayid, to make that call to the boat offshore, even when Locke was begging him not to.

Now look at him in the FF and keep everything his father just told him in mind. How if he makes the wrong decision (and he does feel that they did make a mistake in leaving the island) he loses; he fails. And it hurts. And he doesn’t have what it takes to deal with that hurt so he’s cast himself into this downward spiral of pill and alcohol addiction and he’s lost everything and everyone that has meant so much to him since the plane crashed. The only thing is, I do believe he has what it takes – but he needs to believe that for himself and I truly feel that this will be the basis of the FF story and Jack’s journey. What a beautiful story.

:kiss: Lovey

Oh, Lovey, you just nailed it. Beautifully, beautifully said!

TSTID

I have always had this theory, based on nothing in particular, that Jack is somehow of the island, and got whatever ability he has to do extraordinary things as a doctor from the island. Do I have theories as to how this happened? Oh yes, I do, and it involves laughable things like Christian perhaps having spent some time with the Dharma Initiative, and Jack possibly having been conceived on the island, and stuff like that, that people more mythologically in the know than I could probably puncture in about 5 nanoseconds.

ITA! both,Jack and the Island have this inexplicable healing gift....coincidence? mmh. I've always liked the idea of jack being part of the island.And I agree that he might be born on it. maybe..he's the last baby born there (until Aaron..)
I hope there's more to learn about the Jack/Christian/Dharma/Island story.


Beautiful post Lovey.I'd never read that script before and woha..it's so telling isn't it. thanks for bringing it over.

It's so nice to know that when one is up working into the wee hours, that one may take a break, visit the Den and learn the truth about talking dirty in Italian. :biggrin:

TSTID

LOL.Always a pleasure!
I'm sorry I have no time to partecipate at the discussions lately,i'm glad i can contribuite somehow tho :kiss: ghgh.

Hey Foxes! :kiss:
I'm SO BEHIND on the re-wind and I'm really sorry I haven't participated as much as everyone else. This is completely O/T from what you guys have been discussing but - I've been going through the scripts working on a little project and in the White Rabbit script, I found myself so touched by what I was reading and I just needed to share it with you guys. Because ummm...its Jack. ;)

From the official Lost Script for White Rabbit:


I had never read this before until today. And it moved me beyond belief. I never realized how much depth this episode had and how huge of a window it gave you into Jack’s soul and why he acts the way he does sometimes. What molded him into the amazing yet tragic man he is today. His father did love him. But keep this in mind and look how he approaches everything. The triangle and Sawyer’s impediment on he and Kate’s relationship and how most of the time, and I don’t blame him for this – he walks away from that fight and lets Kate make her choice.

Look at all the choices he’s had to make in his lifetime – to tell on his father, to marry Sarah even though he was hesitant about being a good husband, to become the leader of the Losties, when he saved Boone over Joanna, to give Claire a sedative instead of believing her about her attacker, to go along with Sayid’s plan to tell the others about Michael’s true intentions – and then look how far he has come and how he is owning his choices – to put his life on the line to save Kate and Sawyer, to leave Kate behind in that game room because he knew he had to if he was going to save her and everyone, to let Charlie dive to the Looking Glass, to let Sayid give his life if he needed to, to let Ben’s boys kill Jin, Bernard and Sayid, to make that call to the boat offshore, even when Locke was begging him not to.

Now look at him in the FF and keep everything his father just told him in mind. How if he makes the wrong decision (and he does feel that they did make a mistake in leaving the island) he loses; he fails. And it hurts. And he doesn’t have what it takes to deal with that hurt so he’s cast himself into this downward spiral of pill and alcohol addiction and he’s lost everything and everyone that has meant so much to him since the plane crashed. The only thing is, I do believe he has what it takes – but he needs to believe that for himself and I truly feel that this will be the basis of the FF story and Jack’s journey. What a beautiful story.

:kiss: Lovey

Magnificent Post Lovey!

:ntworthy: :ntworthy: :ntworthy: :ntworthy:

Jack heard the exact opposite of what we all know parents should tell their kids. Instead of You can be or do whatever you want if you put your mind to it. You can be a success. He heard, You are going to fail and get hurt, because you don't have the ability to deal with disappointment and heartache, you are a failure.

I so want Jack to get to a different place in the future simply because I do not want Puff-Daddy's words to be prophecy for Jack. And well, I like this uber professional sexy look!! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/composition/?action=view&current=3x03_FurtherInstructionsFoxyWatch.jpg) Notice that Locke, saw Ben being a Foxhussy even in his mushroom-dream.

Come on Jack! I know you can find your way back to the island!!

I Choose Jack!

shoe

Brilliant post, Lovey!! And yes, Christian's words have indeed followed Jack everywhere. Maybe Christian didn't tell him the wrong thing... maybe he told Jack the truth.

And well, I like this uber professional sexy look!! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/composition/?action=view&current=3x03_FurtherInstructionsFoxyWatch.jpg) Notice that Locke, saw Ben being a Foxhussy even in his mushroom-dream.


:24::drool: Oh, Ben is such a Foxhussy! :biggrin: I bet that when he was wanding Jack, he "accidentally" brushed up against a few places. :naughty:

Well, that didn't last long... I'm on lunch break and I'm conditioned to come here on lunch break, vacation be damned!

Hey Foxes! :kiss:
I'm SO BEHIND on the re-wind and I'm really sorry I haven't participated as much as everyone else. This is completely O/T from what you guys have been discussing but - I've been going through the scripts working on a little project and in the White Rabbit script, I found myself so touched by what I was reading and I just needed to share it with you guys. Because ummm...its Jack. ;)

From the official Lost Script for White Rabbit:


I had never read this before until today. And it moved me beyond belief. I never realized how much depth this episode had and how huge of a window it gave you into Jack’s soul and why he acts the way he does sometimes. What molded him into the amazing yet tragic man he is today. His father did love him. But keep this in mind and look how he approaches everything. The triangle and Sawyer’s impediment on he and Kate’s relationship and how most of the time, and I don’t blame him for this – he walks away from that fight and lets Kate make her choice.

Look at all the choices he’s had to make in his lifetime

Most of the choices he's faced with aren't really choices, are they? And he's not the most spectacular, catchy, flashy character (which I love! I like the quiet, dependable ones) and I think a lot of the times these dilemmas he's constantly facing are lost on a lot of people and the way he deals with them is also too often misinterpreted for various reasons.

ITA! both,Jack and the Island have this inexplicable healing gift....coincidence?

I'm going to go with mom here and say that it doesn't seem to me like there's any plan to have Jack be a healer because that would mean he's very selective with the way he performs his miracles, just the way the Island seems to be. I don't know...

Re: the Penny picture, I think he was surprised to find A picture there in the first place because the hatch represented for them at that point a mysterious hole in the ground, the last thing he expected to find there was a comfy 50s style bungalow with personal souvenirs.

BUT. I would love it if Penny found him in the 2007 timeline or he found Penny or... whichever comes first.

I hope there's more to learn about the Jack/Christian/Dharma/Island story.

I've been wondering about that for a while actually. Sorry, Dany, I still think he's dead, but if they have anymore Dharma/Island flashbacks and he shows up, I'll be very, very happy to see him.

And well, I like this uber professional sexy look!! (http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/atlshoegirl/composition/?action=view&current=3x03_FurtherInstructionsFoxyWatch.jpg)Noti ce that Locke, saw Ben being a Foxhussy even in his mushroom-dream.



:24::drool: Oh, Ben is such a Foxhussy! :biggrin: I bet that when he was wanding Jack, he "accidentally" brushed up against a few places. :naughty:

...in Locke's dream. Which is even kinkier but very in character for both these hussies.

See? How can I possibly stay away from this place? :biggrin:

Beautiful post Lovey! And welcome back to the Den and to the Rewind fun! :biggrin:

I had never read this before until today. And it moved me beyond belief. I never realized how much depth this episode had and how huge of a window it gave you into Jack’s soul and why he acts the way he does sometimes. What molded him into the amazing yet tragic man he is today. His father did love him. But keep this in mind and look how he approaches everything. The triangle and Sawyer’s impediment on he and Kate’s relationship and how most of the time, and I don’t blame him for this – he walks away from that fight and lets Kate make her choice.

That's why "White Rabbit" is one of my favorite Jack-backs for the simple reason that so much is derived from that episode based on his father and their relationship, even in the early stages such as that scene where Christian is lecturing a very young and impressionable Jack (who doesn't seen the least bit guilty about stepping in to help his friend) about how he doesn't have what it takes and how that still, as a grown man, affects Jack and how he lives his day-to-day life. It gives us a very intricate view into Jack's mindset and how Christian orchestrated and molded that mindset. I believe that Christian loved his son, but in most cases, I believe that Christian resented and basically ignored his son's differences and his true nature and tried to make something else out of that (make him think he was weak). I believe that Christian wants Jack to be more like him and he hates the fact that his son isn't necessarily like him and he still succeeds (in the sense of his career as a surgeon).

Look at all the choices he’s had to make in his lifetime – to tell on his father, to marry Sarah even though he was hesitant about being a good husband, to become the leader of the Losties, when he saved Boone over Joanna, to give Claire a sedative instead of believing her about her attacker, to go along with Sayid’s plan to tell the others about Michael’s true intentions – and then look how far he has come and how he is owning his choices – to put his life on the line to save Kate and Sawyer, to leave Kate behind in that game room because he knew he had to if he was going to save her and everyone, to let Charlie dive to the Looking Glass, to let Sayid give his life if he needed to, to let Ben’s boys kill Jin, Bernard and Sayid, to make that call to the boat offshore, even when Locke was begging him not to.

Excellent point and I completely agree. Jack has changed in the fact that he is owning those choices that he makes and not letting anyone undermine that choice. A young Jack in that FB made a choice to help his friend and came home to be chastized by his father for making that decision, for making that choice. There is this new feature about Jack in that he's not more or less guilty about the decisions he makes but that they have to happen, that decision had to be made. He HAD to stay behind to save Kate and Sawyer, he HAD to leave Kate behind, he HAD to let Charlie go, he HAD to leave Sayid, Jin and Bernard on the beach to die at the hands of Ben (he said so himself, "He killed them. Bernard, Jin, Sayid, all three of them. He radioed the beach. And I let it happen. I had to let it happen"), he HAD to make that call to the boat offshore against all odds, because it's what has to be done. Just because it HAD to happen, doesn't necessarily mean that Jack won't feel guilty about it. The man blames himself for everything and that has to stop as well.
Now look at him in the FF and keep everything his father just told him in mind. How if he makes the wrong decision (and he does feel that they did make a mistake in leaving the island) he loses; he fails. And it hurts. And he doesn’t have what it takes to deal with that hurt so he’s cast himself into this downward spiral of pill and alcohol addiction and he’s lost everything and everyone that has meant so much to him since the plane crashed. The only thing is, I do believe he has what it takes – but he needs to believe that for himself and I truly feel that this will be the basis of the FF story and Jack’s journey. What a beautiful story.

In the FF, we see the downpour of a huge decision that Jack makes and how screwed up and guilt-ridden he is about that. It goes directly back to what he was told as a young boy, what Christian said to him about never deciding because when you fail... Christian is basically telling him, "In order to never fail, don't even try to succeed..." That is the lesson that Christian is trying to teach him. It's the wrong message entirely, because instead of building his son up and encouraging him, he basically tells him to keep his feet firmly on the ground in order to avoid a fallout. I also believe wholeheartedly that Jack indeed has what it takes, but the belief of that isn't there because he's been living for his father's approval and acceptance all his life. So Jack needs to really grow out of that and learn to not need his father's acceptance and embrace the fact that he is his own man and that he indeed has whatever it takes to do whatever he wants or needs to do. The FF story and the Island story willl bring Jack's journey full circle and really round out his incredibly poignant story.


Erica

That's why "White Rabbit" is one of my favorite Jack-backs for the simple reason that so much is derived from that episode based on his father and their relationship, even in the early stages such as that scene where Christian is lecturing a very young and impressionable Jack (who doesn't seen the least bit guilty about stepping in to help his friend) about how he doesn't have what it takes and how that still, as a grown man, affects Jack and how he lives his day-to-day life. It gives us a very intricate view into Jack's mindset and how Christian orchestrated and molded that mindset. I believe that Christian loved his son, but in most cases, I believe that Christian resented and basically ignored his son's differences and his true nature and tried to make something else out of that (make him think he was weak). I believe that Christian wants Jack to be more like him and he hates the fact that his son isn't necessarily like him and he still succeeds (in the sense of his career as a surgeon).


Excellent point and I completely agree. Jack has changed in the fact that he is owning those choices that he makes and not letting anyone undermine that choice. A young Jack in that FB made a choice to help his friend and came home to be chastized by his father for making that decision, for making that choice. There is this new feature about Jack in that he's not more or less guilty about the decisions he makes but that they have to happen, that decision had to be made. He HAD to stay behind to save Kate and Sawyer, he HAD to leave Kate behind, he HAD to let Charlie go, he HAD to leave Sayid, Jin and Bernard on the beach to die at the hands of Ben (he said so himself, "He killed them. Bernard, Jin, Sayid, all three of them. He radioed the beach. And I let it happen. I had to let it happen"), he HAD to make that call to the boat offshore against all odds, because it's what has to be done. Just because it HAD to happen, doesn't necessarily mean that Jack won't feel guilty about it. The man blames himself for everything and that has to stop as well.


In the FF, we see the downpour of a huge decision that Jack makes and how screwed up and guilt-ridden he is about that. It goes directly back to what he was told as a young boy, what Christian said to him about never deciding because when you fail... Christian is basically telling him, "In order to never fail, don't even try to succeed..." That is the lesson that Christian is trying to teach him. It's the wrong message entirely, because instead of building his son up and encouraging him, he basically tells him to keep his feet firmly on the ground in order to avoid a fallout. I also believe wholeheartedly that Jack indeed has what it takes, but the belief of that isn't there because he's been living for his father's approval and acceptance all his life. So Jack needs to really grow out of that and learn to not need his father's acceptance and embrace the fact that he is his own man and that he indeed has whatever it takes to do whatever he wants or needs to do. The FF story and the Island story willl bring Jack's journey full circle and really round out his incredibly poignant story.

Erica
Hey guys! I'm new to the Den I think, I may have posted here once before a while ago (it gets confusing...). Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents! :smile:

I disagree that those choices had to be made. I think that part of Jack's journey, particularly his leadership journey, is realizing that those were choices and owning them. He did not have to make that call, he did not have to let Ben's men kill Sayid, Bernard, and Jin, he did not have to let Charlie go on that mission, he did not have to leave Kate and Sayid with the Others. He chose those decisions because he thought they were best for the specific overall good of the group. That's a leader's call, not a hero's call (I think a part of Jack's journey this season has been moving from beach hero to real leader). In the future, I think it's this grasping of his own responsibility for his choices that falls apart on him and compounds his guilt about what has happened much more than it would if he were still in the same place he was a season ago. I don't really count his letting Kate and Sawyer go in these choices because I think that was motivated by something very different than the later choices. I think he did that because he was their leader and he led them blindly into the trap. Once they were captured, he believed he owed it to them to get them out.

I see Christian as loving Jack very much, but being a very bad parent. No matter the message he wanted to get across, you can't tell a child things like Christian told Jack. They aren't going to interpret it well. I think in White Rabbit, Christian was trying to protect Jack. He was telling him not to always step in, not to fight for everything, not to try to save everyone because Jack doesn't have what it takes to know when to stop or how to fail without taking the brunt of the situation's pain. In a lot of ways, I think Christian understood Jack better than anyone. We've been shown with Boone and Sarah that Jack can't let go even when the fight is over, and with Sarah especially, he holds and internalizes that pain for a long time after. Christian just saw that coming early.