Welcome to the LOST Rewind for Episode 1x05, "White Rabbit".

*The events of this episode track very closely with Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth). (Steps also provided by Jane_Eris here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1606849&postcount=83) and adapted for this episode):

Call To Adventure
- Jack sees his father.

Reluctance
- Jack doesn't want to tell anyone what to do now that the water has run out

First Threshold
- Jack follows Christian into the jungle and nearly falls off a cliff

Aid/Mentorship
- Locke saves him and then counsels him (more below)

Trials
- Jack questions what he sees but continues following Christian through the forrest

Innermost Cave
- the Caves

Boon
- The Water

Ordeal
- Finding the empty coffin

Return
- He returns to the beach, tells everyone about the water and the caves and fully accepts his leadership role.

Such a close following of the structure was clearly intentional. Perhaps it was TPTB's unsubtle way of stamping Jack "The Hero". What's interesting here is TPTB linking two very different narrative structures together. I've talked with a friend of mine who's received a master's in children's literature and she tells me Alice in Wonderland is considered the complete opposite of the Hero's Journey, it's a "Girl's Adventure" which follows it's own nonsense logic. I've only (just) read Through the Looking Glass and completely agree.

*How is Boone's notion of being a hero different that Jack's? Why does Boone so desperately want to be the hero himself?

*Who is Joanna? Rhetorical question: Did she resolve her issues as so many other characters who later die on the Island did?

*What would have happened if Jack had found Christian's body? Would he have accepted his leadership role? How does not finding Christian's body lead him to accepting leadership of the Losties?

*Was Christian the monster? What evidence is there for and against it?

*Two odd lines that have always stuck out at me: Sayid saying, "She understands me!" when told to stop yelling at Sun and Sawyer saying, "I made this birthday wish four years ago," to kate while she's on top of him.

*Locke tells Jack, "A leader can't lead until he knows where he's going." Discuss this in the context of what Jack's tatoos mean, "He walks among us, but he is not one of us." Can one lead and be a part of the group he or she leads at the same time? Or must a leader always be separated on some level from those he or she leads? How is that demonstrated within this episode?

*Upon first viewing one gets the impression that Christian is so hard on Jack because he's a hard man or just a hard drunk. But notice: Christian starts warning Jack to not be a leader because "When you fail..." and then doesn't complete the thought. Now think back on Jack's flashforward: Was Jack falling apart because he couldn't handle failure what Christian was trying to warn him about?

Jack sees his dead dad on the island. Very much like Ben seeing his dead mother on the island. We thought it was very odd; it turns out that this is a normal occurrence on the island.

In Christian's speech to young Jack, he seems to equate making choices/decisions with being a hero:
"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you. He had a bad heart. It got real hairy, real fast. Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and come home to dinner. You know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my sides hurt. And how can I do that, hmm? And even when I fail, how do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail. . . you just don't have what it takes. "

Granted, heros have to make often very tough decisions and choices... but is that what a hero is, someone who makes a decision? or is it the type of decision, to "try and save everyone"? Jack certainly is always trying to do that - none so clearly as in TTLG, by which point he is making decisions left and right. And of course Charlie is the real hero of that episode and he's acting primarily for Claire and Aaron, not "everyone" (not to discount Hurley and his amazing work in the mystery machine!). Does Christian see himself as a hero? In his mind, is a hero someone who is detatched emotionally, who can wash their hands and laugh at a tv show?

*How is Boone's notion of being a hero different that Jack's? Why does Boone so desperately want to be the hero himself?


Boone has always wanted to help people we've seen that throughout his whole time on lost. He tried to help Rose, he went on trek's etc. Even in flashbacks he wanted to help Shannon out by giving her money towards new york and a few years later when she was in "trouble" in australia he came and tried to help her again. Its just who he is in my opinion.
Jack has his own problems that get in the way of him wanting to be a leader. I think Jack's dad was always hard on him like "you can never be a good surgeon" he wouldn't have said it in those words but you know what i mean. His dad constantly putting him down like that would effect him and when he's being treated as a leader he finds it weird because while as a doctor his father always treated him as a subordinate.


*Two odd lines that have always stuck out at me: Sayid saying, "She understands me!" when told to stop yelling at Sun

This could be Sayid's good judgement of character. He knew Ben & Mikhail were one of them, he knew Locke lied to him etc. Then again Sayid's rage could be getting in his way like the time his rage blinded him from the truth when he tortured Sawyer over Shannon's inhaler's.

The way Christian treats Jack causing a huge inferiority complex keeps annoying me no matter how often I watch it. I always wondered why the surgeon seemed to be that disappointed with his son because there doesn´t seem to be an obvious reason for that. Isn´t Jack exactly the kind of son every father could be proud of?
Being very fond of supernatural as well as conspiracy theories I thought Christian might be deeply involved in DHARMA or whoever is the might behind. Perhaps he had some kind of genetic engineering or such on his child and expected extraordinary abilities? I am convinced that Jack has supernatural abilities, suspected this since the pilot but was convinced after the poker game. Christian couldn´t find out about this because he never took the time to play with his son.
In the light of the flashforward I begin to see Christian a little differently. If (what is very likely) Jack´s desolate condition is a reaction of failure then his father might have known him better than it seems and was trying to protect his son. Jack can´t stand failing to save everybody though he has grown a lot on the island. His decision to let Libby go instead of fighting a lost battle like he did on Boone showed a character development.

whispers

Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and come home to dinner. You know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my sides hurt. And how can I do that, hmm? And even when I fail, how do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail. . . you just don't have what it takes. "

This has always been an interesting conversation, and really highlights the differences between Christian and Jack. Christian is, in a sense, right about Jack here. According to Christian's definition of "having what it takes" Jack just doesn't cut it. Jack could not do what Christian did, and "wash his hands of it" and forget about it. He becomes involved. Too involved sometimes, and so he is often tortured by the mistakes he makes, even when an objective viewer would say he had done his best (eg. Joanna.) He cannot let himself off the hook.

In this conversation I see Christian's "having what it takes" as NOT being a hero. Not trying to save everyone, but just doing your job without becoming involved in the consequences. This is what it takes to be in a leadership role and keep your sanity. Jack cannot operate this way, as he IS a heroic type.

How is Boone's notion of being a hero different that Jack's? Why does Boone so desperately want to be the hero himself?

I don't know how their notions of heroics are different, but the fact is that Boone is not (at least at this point in s1) a natural hero or leader. He buckles under pressure whereas Jack excels under pressure. As an example, compare their actions in the Pilot. Jack jumps into action, keeping a level head, taking command. Boone ends up running all over trying to find a pen that Jack sarcastically asked for- he needs to do something, anything to feel like hes helping, even if he doesn't realize how useless it is.

White Rabbit is where we see the reversed big dipper????

whispers

White Rabbit makes a nice homage to Hamlet. Check out the scene where Jack pulls the doll out of the water, a drowned Ophelia, who was mad with grief for her own father's death. Jack, like Hamlet, has been haunted by the ghost of his father, and struggles with what is being asked of him. He becomes mad, crazy with rage, when he finds the coffin empty. Not unlike Ophelia, hmm?

Jane - another great post! Love the doll/Ophelia parallel. That was such an eerie scene. I always wondered if there was some significance to the doll in the water -- an homage to Hamlet is pretty cool!

*Locke tells Jack, "A leader can't lead until he knows where he's going." Discuss this in the context of what Jack's tatoos mean, "He walks among us, but he is not one of us." Can one lead and be a part of the group he or she leads at the same time? Or must a leader always be separated on some level from those he or she leads? How is that demonstrated within this episode?I wonder if it varies from leader to leader? From leadership style to leadership style? I think there are some similarities or a parallel between being a doctor and being a leader. We've all heard from time to time, that doctors have to keep an emotional distance from their patients in order to see the patient's "big picture" clearly. What if you went to the doctor's because you thought that you had rheumatoid arthritis and when the doctor confirmed it, he or she fell down on the floor and started crying about it, saying that your life wasn't going to be easy, but it was going to have some painful days? Along these lines, I think a leader of any kind has to create some kind of distance from the people that they are leading. Some emotional distance. Some decisions will always be made by the heart, but some have to be made by the head - for a doctor and a leader in another situation. Even if you feel some kind of emotions for your patient or your followers, you have to keep some of it private. I think this is why Jack comes across as aloof sometimes. We are seeing the crossing of his emotional feelings for the Losties clashing with his thoughts about being a leader, with making decisions that might or might not put other people at risk. What choice is the right one and why? I don't think anyone thinks that being a leader is easy...

*Upon first viewing one gets the impression that Christian is so hard on Jack because he's a hard man or just a hard drunk. But notice: Christian starts warning Jack to not be a leader because "When you fail..." and then doesn't complete the thought. Now think back on Jack's flashforward: Was Jack falling apart because he couldn't handle failure what Christian was trying to warn him about? Christian is/was definitely a raging alcoholic and treated Jack, some of the time, like dog doo. I think there are reasons behind why Christian is/was the way he is/was and guilt is one of the main components. Why is he so guilt-ridden? I've always thought that he had some connection to the DI or THF and this spiderwebbed out to Jack. Don't know how Jack was involved, but possibly when he was a kid and he doesn't remember. Is it possible that Christian knew that Jack would be faced with some huge situation where a lot of other people's lives would be at stake - and not just in a hospital setting? How would he know something like that and is it even possible?

Jane, I loved the quotes from Hamlet and how they paralleled with Jack's situation.

ISABEL [to Jack]: "He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us." Your tattoos -- that's what they say.
JACK: That's what they say. That's not what they mean.

JACK: Do you see who I am, Achara?
ACHARA: Yes.
JACK: Who am I?
ACHARA: You are a leader, a great man. But this, this makes you lonely, and frightened, and angry.
JACK: Now, put it on me. Put it on me!
ACHARA: No. This, this is against my people.
[Jack pushes Achara to the tattoo station and takes his shirt off.]
ACHARA: There will be consequences, Jack.
JACK: There always are.


This seems to be all wrapped up in Jack's "if we can't live together, we're going to die alone" speech. Which in turn may be wrapped up in Jack's reaction to his father, who has indeed died alone. I wonder if Jack has come to terms with his identity as a leader over the course of the show so far... he seems less frightened of it (i.e. he makes decisions readily enough), but is he still lonely and angry?

whispers

Do you think Christian might feel guilty about Claire? Or could it be that Christian hates himself precisely because he "has what it takes" - the ability to completely disconnect from other people, the ability to "not feel"?Probably a little of both, jane. I also got the feeling that although Christian told Jack that he "didn't have what it takes", which is normally considered an insult or a negative comment about someone, that Christian actually saw something in Jack that made Jack a "better person" than him...a "better soul" than Christian...if that makes any sense?

whispers

I love the reference to Hamlet, too.
Jack didn´t want to be the leader but couldn´t help it. He was the one who started to help everybody at once and the castaways trust him more than anybody else. His sense for responsibility let him no choice.

Do you think Christian might feel guilty about Claire? Or could it be that Christian hates himself precisely because he "has what it takes" - the ability to completely disconnect from other people, the ability to "not feel"?

I don't think Claire was born yet. Jack seemed to be 12 or so in the FB, I think there's a bigger age differenc between the two of them. But maybe not.

I don't think Christian was the monster. I think he was a manifestation somewhat akin to Solaris or The Sphere, though obviously not exactly the same thing. I remember on my first re-watch through of the series (during S3 midseason hiatus), I felt sure that Christian was just a hallucination (I was taking everything at face value that time through due to my feelings about the show at that point). Of course, now I think differently.

A couple of my own thoughts about this episode: Is it just coincidence that Locke showed up just in time to save Jack (a seemingly slim possibility), or did he really know where to look, as he said? Another thought: maybe Christian's body was never actually in the coffin while it was on the plane, and it's actually still back in Australia. I doubt it, but the airline rep talking with Jack about proper documentation did say there was no latitude for that issue. Would they detain the body? I don't really think so, but it was just something that struck me this time through.

I still think that the question of why Christian's body isn't in the coffin is one of the most important unanswered questions in LOST. I feel like this and Adam + Eve are going to somehow be tied together (although i have no evidence, they just feel similair). didn't TPTB say something in a podcast during S3 that we should still be asking what happened to Christian's body? so if we take tptb at their word and assume that Christian is dead, why would his body be missing? are the manifestations the island actually re-animating the dead bodies of Christian and Yemi etc.? was Christian's body taken by the Others for some reason we don't know? was his body ever in the coffin to begin with? could Widmore/Paik have stolen his body, perhaps to do some testing on it? so many possibilities, what do you guys think?

*Was Christian the monster? What evidence is there for and against it?

I can't take credit for this, it's something TheSacrificeTheIslandDemanded noticed in our Jack thread, but the way Christian's appearance is shot at one point, we, the audience can see him before Jack can because Jack has his back turned to him. I have no idea if this is a clue, a clue, a clue!!! or it's just a neat visual intro, but I thought I should mention it.

*Two odd lines that have always stuck out at me: Sayid saying, "She understands me!" when told to stop yelling at Sun

Just Sayid being his suspicious self.

Sawyer saying, "I made this birthday wish four years ago," to kate while she's on top of him.

Just Sawyer being his horndog self and thinking he was funny.


*Locke tells Jack, "A leader can't lead until he knows where he's going." Discuss this in the context of what Jack's tatoos mean, "He walks among us, but he is not one of us." Can one lead and be a part of the group he or she leads at the same time? Or must a leader always be separated on some level from those he or she leads? How is that demonstrated within this episode?


It's demonstrated a lot more poignantly over the course of Jack's journey, but ultimately, a shepherd is with the flock, not of the flock. He can't become as emotionally attached to people as Jack tends to become or he'll suffer the consequences.

According to Christian's definition of "having what it takes" Jack just doesn't cut it. Jack could not do what Christian did, and "wash his hands of it" and forget about it.

Keep that in mind when we get to Outlaws, for Christian has a completely different perspective there. He defines HIMSELF as "weak" and acknowledges that he was essentially wrong about his son. Jack on the other hand, hates the fact that his dad runs away from responsibility and blames everything on fate.

I adore Christian and their relationship is the most complex on the show for me. John Terry and Mattehw Fox are excellent in every scene they share. I think Christian has become very sympathetic and is a wonderful character. However, I can never forget that according to him, "having what it takes" also means manipulating and using your son's need for affection in order to cover up your screw ups. It means lying and having someone else sell his soul in order to cover up the loss of two innocent lives. Jack doesn't cut it, though he tried to please his father and sacrifice his own sense of right and wrong for him. So this is a scene that needs to be correlated with who Christian is in Outlaws and his own regrets, IMO.


He becomes involved. Too involved sometimes, and so he is often tortured by the mistakes he makes, even when an objective viewer would say he had done his best (eg. Joanna.) He cannot let himself off the hook.


That's true and very well said, much better than what I tried to say earlier.

Jane, I cannot but echo everyone's compliments for your great post re: the dolls and Hamlet. :clapping:


Christian is/was definitely a raging alcoholic and treated Jack, some of the time, like dog doo.

The only Sawyer line that ever truly stuck with me: "Kids are like dogs. If you slap them around enough, they think they deserve it."

Do you think Christian might feel guilty about Claire? Or could it be that Christian hates himself precisely because he "has what it takes" - the ability to completely disconnect from other people, the ability to "not feel"?

I think Christian hates himself because he DOESN'T have what it takes, because he's "weak" (his words) and afraid of failure, despite his bravado.

He obviously felt guilty about Claire because at the lowest point in his life, he tried to reconnect with her. Sure, it was motivated by his own needs, but I think he genuinely cared for the daughter he once sang lullabies to. I think those short moments where he was a warm, caring father were perhaps the ones where he shed his skin of Surgeon God and husband to a scarily cold and co-dependant Margo. (I'm surprised nobody's mentioned her yet.)

My conspiracy theory when I first watched the episode was that somebody killed him to silence him because somehow, he knew something important... and it was somehow connected to the crash... or something. It wasn't a very well developed theory. :biggrin: But "the incident" in the lobby the hotel guy mentions to Jack must of jumped at me... OK, actually, it was years of X Files obsessiveness. What can I say... I've been conditioned like that.

I still think that the question of why Christian's body isn't in the coffin is one of the most important unanswered questions in LOST. I feel like this and Adam + Eve are going to somehow be tied together (although i have no evidence, they just feel similair).

Aah, Christian's body. Yes, that's a very big mystery to me as well. Adam and Eve... meh, I'm curious, but nowhere near as curious as I am about Christian.

I personally hope hes not alive. I mean, if Juliet's records on Jack are correct they did a freakin' autopsy on Christian!

"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you. He had a bad heart. It got real hairy, real fast. Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and come home to dinner. You know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my sides hurt. And how can I do that, hmm? And even when I fail, how do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail. . . you just don't have what it takes. "


I have wondered if Christian was telling Jack something that he wished HE (Christian) had been told at that age. As if Christian was trying to warn Jack away from the super-stressful job of surgeon, the way some actors will say "I don't want MY kids going into this business...." Only, you can't tell kids "Don't be a surgeon ( or actor or whatever)," because they might do it to spite you.

Of course, Christian might have been trying the reverse-psychology trick, to get Jack to 'toughen up,' but I'm not so sure it was that. Christian was already drinking that day (the day he said this to young Jack) and had had a bad day a work, so my thinking is that he was just saying to Jack what he wished he had heard from his own dad. Maybe Christian had his own 'daddy issues.' His way of dealing with his stress was with alcohol.... maybe Christian, deep down, didn't really think he himself had 'what it takes.'

-------------------------------------------

"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you."
Christian, as a surgeon, didn't know the age of the boy on the table?

"It got real hairy, real fast. "
Why did it get hairy, so fast? Could he have been drinking on the job, even back then, not enough for people to think he was drunk, but just enough to slow his thinking, or unsteady his hands just a tiny bit - like it did when he was operating on the pregnant lady?

"Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions"
Was that why they were looking at him?

I'm not saying this is what happened, but drunks sometimes re-write events to suit themselves ( as a child of an alcoholic, I know), and unless the show actually SHOWS, theres no way to know what really happened. I wish there was some way they could give Christian flashbacks, so we could understand his character more!

"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you."

Christian, as a surgeon, didn't know the age of the boy on the table? Maybe he didn't know the age of his son.

As a conspiracy theory freak I´ve always thought that Christian somehow is involved in the crash and what has been done to get these people on it. IMO either he was killed because he knew too much or pretended to be dead to avoid being killed.
It moves me every time I watch this scene how hard Christian treated his son but I begin to take into consideration that he was trying to protect Jack who always gets emotional involved with his patients and the group he leads. Does he have what it takes? is a question I asked myself over and over again. Often I was under the impression that the castaways as well as Jack himself expected too much of him. It was heartbreaking to watch that Jack didn´t eat or sleep trying to make everybody feel safe or showibg bossy behaviour in order to compensate his insecurity. Jack is a doctor, how can he know how to survive in the wild? Locke or Sayid are the men with better skills for that task but Jack has something both of them lack: the ability to make everybody trust him.

Maybe Christian was already seeing tendencies in Jack, even at such a young age, to get overly emotionally involved with others, to be too hard on himself, etc. when he had that talk with Jack.

I imagine it would be extremely difficult for someone like Jack to be a surgeon, and a lot easier for someone like Christian who is able to detach himself from his patients. That doesn't mean that Christian is a better doctor for having this trait, just that the job is easier for him. If I were a patient I'd want Jack as my doctor, as I'd know he would do everything in his power to save me.

Of course, Christian might have been trying the reverse-psychology trick, to get Jack to 'toughen up,' but I'm not so sure it was that. Christian was already drinking that day (the day he said this to young Jack) and had had a bad day a work, so my thinking is that he was just saying to Jack what he wished he had heard from his own dad. Maybe Christian had his own 'daddy issues.' His way of dealing with his stress was with alcohol.... maybe Christian, deep down, didn't really think he himself had 'what it takes.'

That's not even a "maybe" question because we know from Outlaws that Christian thinks of himself as "weak" and doesn't even have the courage to pick up the phone and call his son and admit he was wrong. I subscribe to your Bad Grandpa Shephard and Christian's daddy issues theory, btw. :biggrin:

Like I said, I don't think we can analyze this flashback to Jack's childhood and not take into account the way Christian is developed in future episodes. He's a sympathetic character at times because he genuinely loves his son, but that does not anihilate the darker side of him, the one that used that need for affection and manipulated his own son, the one that blamed his selfish actions on fate over and over again, no matter how many people he hurt in the process. In a cut scene from Two For The Road, Lindsay, Claire's aunt calls him "toxic". I love the man and I do think he wanted what HE thought was best for his son, but I don't believe for a minute that he detected some fundamental flaw in his 12 year old son and acted to protect him. I think he was acutely aware of his own flaws, of his own weakness that he drowned in alcohol even back then.

There are some interesting tidbits (some of them cut for time) from the script of this episode I thought I should mention to complete the picture of Jack's childhood:

"TWELVE YEAR OLD JACK stands nervously in the doorway of an imposing STUDY. Beautiful. Ornate. The kind of place where you don't want to touch stuff."

"SHEPHARD: Not the best decision, huh, kiddo?

Shephard offers a sime to his son, but it's only with his mouth, not his EYES.

SHEPHARD: You wanna come in?

Not really. But Jack does anyway. Walks up to his dad's chair. Of course, there's no place for him to sit."

[Later]

"SHEPHARD: Couple of guys jumped Marc Silverman. (beat) But they didn't jump you.

JACK: No.

Shephard just looks at his son for a moment. Can't quite read it. But it feels a lot like PITY.

And then he extends his FISTS. Face down.

SHEPHARD: Okay, Jack. One's got a quarter in it. One's empty. You choose right, quarter's yours. You choose wrong, you give me a quarter.

Jack just looks at his father's outstretched fists for a moment. Not sure what's going on right now...

SHEPHARD: Decide, Jack...

Jack deliberates another moment. Finally-- Picks the left hand. Shephard opens it up-- NOTHING inside. Shakes his head---

SHEPHARD: Pay up.

Is he serious. Yeah. He is.

Jack reaches into his own pocket, hands his father a QUARTER. The old man takes it, looking over his son't beaten face. Downs a swallow of his drink.

SHEPHARD: Your heart's in the right place. Sticking up for the little guy. But look what happened. You made the wrong call. You lost, buddy. (beat) You failed.

And let's stop for a second here. Because this is one of those moments in your childhood. One of those moments where your folks say something that just NEVER GOES AWAY. Something that sticks with you. That BECOMES you. And Jack is listening to every :censored:ing word of it."

Then comes the story about the boy on the table...

"And his father actually puts his hand on Jack's shoulder [keep this in mind when we get to ATBCHDI]. He does love his son. This is said out of love... no matter how :censored: cruel it sounds to us...

[You don't have what it takes...]

Jack absorbs that. And more importantly, because this is his father. Because he is twelve. Because this must be true-- He BELIEVES it.

A beat. And then, his father again extends two fists--

SHEPHARD: Same rules. Double or nothing. Decide.

But Jack just looks at his extended hands. Many, many, many, many beats pass before Jack finally shakes his head. No.

SHEPHARD: Good boy."

He might be motivated by love, but Christian's actions should be in some manual on how to avoid screwing up your kids.

There's another missing part from his conversation with Margo where Jack tells her there's not a single picture of him or her on his desk, but lots of pictures of Christian fishing, going on trips, etc. He didn't spend a lot of quality time with either of his kids apparently.

On a totally unrelated note, I think Claire might have been around this time. According to Christian again (Outlaws), Jack's about the same age as Sawyer and he was eight in 1976. That would make Claire about 22/21 in 2004.

PS: Happy Birthday, SamG! :smile:

Christian seems to believe hard education causes tougher men. Maybe his father treated him the same way. Most likely Christin tries to convince himself that he is tough while his way of dealing with problems proofs he is not. He tries to hide his emotions while Jack lets them out what is the better way I think.

Your heart's in the right place. Sticking up for the little guy. But look what happened. You made the wrong call. You lost, buddy. (beat) You failed.

I wonder if Jack would have viewed his attempt to help his friend as a failure before this conversation. I mean, he tried, he did his best, and even if he didn't stop the fight he could have been satisfied with the fact that he tried. But no, Christian puts this into his impressionable head. And now, even when he does everything he can to save Joanna (well, I thought he did, even if Jack didn't) he sees his effort as a failure, instead of being at least a bit consoled that he did his best. Heck, he doesn't even believe he tried to save her! I mean, what was he supposed to do, leave drowning Boone?

I finally got a chance to finish watching this episode last night, and I noticed that in his conversation with Locke (loved that scene) he repeats what his father said to him, saying that he can't be a leader because he "doesn't have what is takes." Poor Jack, he obviously internalized what his father told him in that conversation.

Oh, and I love those script excerpts Claudia, they add a lot of insight into the scene.

I was thinking about Jack/ Boone again last night, and how Boone wants to be a leader but fails, whereas Jack doesn't really want it but becomes the leader anyway. There are some obvious reasons why people would look to Jack before Boone, such as the fact that Jack is a surgeon, which automatically inspires a certain amount of respect and trust in people. Jack is also much older than Boone, (who looks like early 20's to me). Are there other aspects of their personalities that account for why people look to Jack and not Boone?

I have a stupid question: I know the title "White Rabbit" is an Alice in wonderland reference, but I've never read that book, so what is the significance of the title? What is the white rabbit?

Thanks Claudia.

I always find the deleted scenes really interesting or things that were in scripts I've read but some how were weeded out before they were shot.

I read "Alice In Wonderland" 30 years ago. As far as I remember the white rabbit lead her through the wonderland and helped her out.

just like christian (white rabbit) helped jack (alice) in the scenes where jack "sees" christian and he leads him to the water...but...also to an empty coffin...a sign that jack's "issues" aren't solved, yet...

This background on the Hero's Journey is absolutely fascinating and it can be applied to this episode as a microcosm, as jane_eris brilliantly laid out, or to Jack's journey in Lost as a whole. That is not to say Lost is just there to illustrate a hero's journey, for the essence of the hero's journey is to serve his people and come through the trials that will help those around him in the long run. And there's so much more going on in the Lost story, but this framework for Jack's character development wonderfully follows ancient myths and epics.

*How is Boone's notion of being a hero different that Jack's? Why does Boone so desperately want to be the hero himself?
Boone, poor soul, had selfless motivation most of the time and truly wanted to help. He lived up to his lifeguard role and tried to save Joanna, but also became overcome by the undertow. Then, as lifeguard training cautions, he became a victim himself. His anger at Jack afterwards for bringing him in was unjustified -- for Boone most likely would have drowned after being pulled up unconscious from the bottom.
And it seems unclear as to whether Boone told others on the beach that he was going in after Joanna -- also a fundamental lifeguard rule. The folks hanging around uselessly on the beach didn't seem to make that clear. What bugs me is that no one else went in to help, even to retrieve Boone so that Jack could have continued out to save Joanna. What, none of them can swim? It seems like it was a plot device to illustrate Jack having to make a choice -- to triage which victim to save -- to go along with the flashback.
Back to Boone -- he genuinely wanted to help, and he was also probably seeking some recognition and proof to himself that he was capable. I found his "I run a business!" almost laughable since that in itself didn't strike me as of immediate usefulness on the island. Later, when we met his mother Sabrina (the Grown-up Witch) more of this becomes understandable -- he had spent his life under the thumb a manipulative and demanding mother, running a branch of her wedding planning business, so he felt the need to get out there and do manly stuff on the beach and exploring with Locke. Interesting how both Boone and Jack (and Ana) had worked with their parent. I think Ana was right - that kids and parents shouldn't work together.

I was slighly disturbed, though, by Boone's stunt with the water - he simply took it, didn't tell anyone that he had, and later claimed it was for Claire's good. That was just the wrong way to go about it, despite having good intentions.

What bugs me is that no one else went in to help, even to retrieve Boone so that Jack could have continued out to save Joanna. What, none of them can swim?

I was thinking the same thing, but my guess is that those on the beach didn't know that there was another person in the water. They probably saw only one person drowning, and so didn't think to come in and retrieve Boone so Jack could go back after Joanna. As you said, it seems that Boone likely made the mistake of not telling anyone that he was going in after Joanna.

I also found the water thing a bit disturbing. Why didn't Boone simply explain to someone that he wanted to take charge of the water situation? It might have been a useful role. :confused:

Stages of Group Development (http://wilderdom.com/group/StagesGroupDevelopment.html)

Bruce Tuckman (1965) developed a 4-stage model of group development. He labelled the stages, Dr Suess-style:

1. Forming: The group comes together and gets to initially know one another and form as a group.

2. Storming: A chaotic vying for leadership and trialling of group processes 3. Norming: Eventually agreement is reached on how the group operates (norming) 4. Performing: The group practices its craft and becomes effective in meeting its objectives.





Tuckman added a 5th stage 10 years later:5. Adjourning: The process of "unforming" the group, that is, letting go of the group structure and moving on.



It seems our Losties are in stage 2 - battling out who will be the leader.

These early episodes have a strong connection between being a leader and being a hero. We see many people acting on their own to try and save the day - Locke the hunter, Jack the doctor, Boone the lifeguard, Sayid the technology man and organizer. Hmm, and then there are the great counterpoints who don't really put themselves forward as leaders of the group, but are definite heros - Charlie in the Moth and TTLG, Locke of whom Charlies says at one point something like "if I had to pick one person on the island who would save us all it'd be Locke". I want to put some female examples in there, but I can't think of any... Kate repeatedly wants to go back for Jack, but I don't know if I'd call that either a heroic or leadership impulse. Are being a hero and being a leader the same thing?

I was slighly disturbed, though, by Boone's stunt with the water - he simply took it, didn't tell anyone that he had, and later claimed it was for Claire's good. That was just the wrong way to go about it, despite having good intentions.
I think that this was Boone's kind of childish way to create a hero image for himself amongst the Losties. He didn't save Rose or Joanna. I think that he was trying to help Claire, really, but his "Old wounds" about being a hero, being necessary, being legitimate, came into play and he used the water situation to create a hero identity for himself - unsuccessfully...again...
100%
Kate repeatedly wants to go back for Jack, but I don't know if I'd call that either a heroic or leadership impulse. Are being a hero and being a leader the same thing?Is a hero the best kind of leader? Is a hero a successful leader? I think so. I think that there are a lot of leaders out there, but not all of them are heroes. Isn't Ben a good example of someone that is a leader, but not a hero? I think that Charlie is a good example of a hero, but he wasn't a leader. I'd say that you can be both, but it's not mutually exclusive.

As for Kate, I think the fact that she's strongly interested in going back for Jack in the first few episodes foreshadows their strong connection. Kind of like when her mother said that you can't help who you love. For some reason or another, Jack and Kate clicked early on. I don't mean to downplay her obvious connection with Sawyer because they are also obviously close. IMHO, I think Kate and Jack have what I would call a strange connection and Kate and Sawyer have a bond. I think that whatever is between Kate and Jack ignited immediately and is/was based on intangibles and with Kate and Sawyer, it is a bond that was developed because of similar personalities, backstories and sexual attraction....

Just a few things I want to mention about this episode:

Charlie's claim that he didn't swim? What's up with that? He said, "I don't swim, I don't swim." Was he simply refusing, and therefore living up to his self-proclamation of being a coward, or was he really unable to swim? Also, were none of the other survivors able to swim?

Jin was so reclusive in these early episodes. Now we know why.

Boone's incompetence shows up again. Even as a lifeguard, he couldn't save Joanna. And then when he tries to be a hero and protect the water, his plan backfires.

It seems like everyone is wearing white in this episode. Except for Sawyer and Charlie. And maybe Claire.

On titles: Going back to what Sawyer said in Pilot II, when he called Sayid the Terrorist and himself the Criminal, and then turned to Shannon and asked her what part she wanted to play...It seems that people's roles are beginning to become more defined and important. Locke asks for Jack, but doesn't use his name: "Where's the Doctor." When Charlie is talking to Claire, she says, "Great, our only Hunter is gonna get killed trying to get the Pregnant Girl some water." I'm sure there may be more examples. I remember thinking when I first watched these episodes, how important each persons abilities were. How much the survivors depended on each other. Jack was so important b/c of his medical skills, and without Locke, there would not have been any boar to eat. What people do is what makes up their identity at this point.

I'm also reminded of just how many of Jack's heroic attempts really don't succeed. Here, he tried to save Joanna, but found Boone first. He tried to save the Marshall, but couldn't. He went to Australia to find his dad, but was too late. And now, with what we know of the finale...

Also about Jack: When Locke tells him that the people need someone to tell them what to do, Jack responds, "I'm not a leader." This reminds me of what Juliet tells Richard Alpert in "Not in Portland." She says, "I'm not a leader. I'm a mess."
100%
I think that this was Boone's kind of childish way to create a hero image for himself amongst the Losties. He didn't save Rose or Joanna. I think that he was trying to help Claire, really, but his "Old wounds" about being a hero, being necessary, being legitimate, came into play and he used the water situation to create a hero identity for himself - unsuccessfully...again...
100%
Is a hero the best kind of leader? Is a hero a successful leader? I think so. I think that there are a lot of leaders out there, but not all of them are heroes. Isn't Ben a good example of someone that is a leader, but not a hero? I think that Charlie is a good example of a hero, but he wasn't a leader. I'd say that you can be both, but it's not mutually exclusive.



Great thoughts, Junie. I always enjoy your insights into human nature.

I don't think Christian was the monster. I think he was a manifestation somewhat akin to Solaris or The Sphere, though obviously not exactly the same thing.
A couple of my own thoughts about this episode: Is it just coincidence that Locke showed up just in time to save Jack (a seemingly slim possibility), or did he really know where to look, as he said?

I hardly remember the plot of The Sphere but I did watch Solaris recently and I'm trying to link the two (Lost and Solaris) together. The folks on Solaris were seeing the dead people that they loved most right? And one couldn't just get rid of the apparition because another would just takes its place and in turn, mess up the apparition's sense of self, right? Jack obviously loved his dad even though Christian was a drunk. So Jack made Christian manifest so he could come to terms with his leader/hero role?

"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you. He had a bad heart. It got real hairy, real fast. Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and come home to dinner. You know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my sides hurt. And how can I do that, hmm? And even when I fail, how do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail. . . you just don't have what it takes. "


I found Christian's story an interesting one to tell Jack as he stands in front of his father, cut up from being a hero. IMO, in telling the story, Christian was telling Jack he understood why Jack chose get up even though he didn't have to.

Btw, it's so odd how we treat people who are victims of abuse AND those that choose to step in and try to intervene on behalf of the victim. It's like it's normal for people to bully others. But society looks down on the people being bullied and looks down on/punishes the people who attempt to stand up against bullies.
Anyway.

Even though he failed, Jack can go home and resume living with his head up knowing that he tried. Imagine if Jack had chosen to lie there and watch someone get beat up. He'd then have three people hating him: The bullies, Marc Silverman, and himself. I've got a feeling Christian would have had the same feelings toward Jack no matter what he chose.

And what was the look Christian gave Jack when Jack answered, "no" to Christian's question about whether he was jumped? It didn't look like pity to me. I don't know what it looked like to be honest.


*Was Christian the monster? What evidence is there for and against it?

*Upon first viewing one gets the impression that Christian is so hard on Jack because he's a hard man or just a hard drunk. But notice: Christian starts warning Jack to not be a leader because "When you fail..." and then doesn't complete the thought. Now think back on Jack's flashforward: Was Jack falling apart because he couldn't handle failure what Christian was trying to warn him about?

**I don't think Christian was the monster. Why would Christian want to kill the Pilot? Or a boar for that matter?

**I resolve to let this one play out. And loving it all the way.

whispers

Re-watching this episode we see our first apparition, or hallucination, although its far from the last.

I think it's important to look at, not what or who the apparations are (jack's dad, kate's horse, atc) but what they do to the losties seeing them.

In this case I believe Jack's dad appeared in order to lead him to the water

Whatever or whoever is controlling the hallucinations knew the losties were getting low on water so he saved them. For some reason the thing controlling these hallucinations wants our losties to be alive.

From now on when I see the hallucinations I will be noticing what they make our losties do or how they make them react instead of what the hallucination itself is. I believe these things are taken from the losties past so that they will have a bigger emotional impact on the losties and get them into motion.

At the moment I cant remember how the other hallucinations affected our losties, all i remember is that it did have a big impact on their character development / development of the storyline

Dunno what the hallucinations are; but I did get this: Jack tells Kate they have been there 6 days... Ben ordered lists in three.

And what is the deal with the white shirts? Unless it was an open audition for Die Hard 4 (my money's on Kate for any future gig) I'm thinking, Tabula Rase...

or would if every one of them didn't come with excess baggage. :confused: But then... we didn't know them then like we do now so... ...maybe it's to do with reinventing yourself? Or the cast being presented to us without clues to their nature in their attire.

Yeah - that'll do. :rolleyes: tsk!

<-- Thick tonight. I'm going to bed to read about the White Rabbit; see if I can't see ...something.

~ ETD: I cheated; I do have Alice on my bookshelf, but read SparkNotes last night instead …did find my White Rabbit notes though :grin: wrote them while watching last week ~

I noticed a lot of touching in this epi …these people hardly know one another. Meh - maybe the desperateness of their situation creates a need for the comfort of intimate contact.

The scene between Kate and Claire over the suitcase makes me laugh; Kate produces a perfectly good pair of combat pants from it – remarking at their practicality …but I don’t recall ever having seen her in them. I shall have to keep watch for them.

and Claire… what is it with her boots?! Their laces are about a mile long …there’s no way she could have gotten in and out of them in her condition! Unlesss maybe she’s a practitioner of advanced yoga and could circumvent her bump.

~ in a later scene we see Kate being very clucky over the passed-out mum-to-be… foreshadowing her rabid defense of her and her baby against Danielle.

The Sydney hotel scene has me wondering how many vices Christian has – the booze, infidelity - because unless he’s a slave to the evil weed as well… that ashtray was used wasn’t it?

~ I think Shephard senior had company in his room (and I’d like a look at a screencap of that card in the bedside drawer).

Jack’s pissy remember-your-place comment to the concierge; “My father is the chief of surgery” was perfect here after Boone’s earlier strop about his running a business; both following John’s ‘I’m special’ declaration: “You don’t know who you’re dealing with.” (Walkabout)

~ in a later scene we see Kate being very clucky over the passed-out mum-to-be… foreshadowing her rabid defense of her and her baby against Danielle.

...and her delivering Aaron (one of the last moments when Kate was truly and undeniably awesome and a character in her own right); which... thank God, cause if Jack had delivered him... well, that would have been a lil' awkward at family reunions.

I love Kate being protective and all big sister-like to Claire in general. This was a cute scene because Claire is revealed as a woman of faith, forshadowing her bond with Locke.

The Sydney hotel scene has me wondering how many vices Christian has – the booze, infidelity - because unless he’s a slave to the evil weed as well… that ashtray was used wasn’t it?

Yes, it was. I'd like to know what those pills were. Were those for his heart condition or was there some Oxycodone-type drug in there too?

~ I think Shephard senior had company in his room (and I’d like a look at a screencap of that card in the bedside drawer).

I'm not tech savy unfortunately. I still want to know what "the incident in the lobby" was. It was one of the little things that tripped my conspiracy theory wire, though in the meantime I've come to accept that he died of a heart attack in an alley in Kings Cross, cause if the script says so...


Jack’s pissy remember-your-place comment to the concierge; “My father is the chief of surgery” was perfect here after Boone’s earlier strop about his running a business


Hehe. Except Christian was indeed a chief of surgery (or had been) but Boone didn't ellaborate on his business... a bridal gig, which doesn't exactly make him ideal for crisis management. I liked his hapless attempts at finding his place in the pack though. He was a good kid.

The pills were for a heart condition. There was an HD cap and if you do a search here one of the bottles was marked "plecebo"

I wanted to post what I noticed when rewatching WR (White Rabbit):

1. The conversation on the beach between Kate and Claire regarding the lack of hairbrushes.

I now believe that the flight was arranged to crash, and the hairbrushes were taken sometime, either prior to lift-off, or on the beach when they slept, and were, used by the Others, or whoever was responsible for the crash, to check the losties DNA. All you need is a strand of hair with an attached root!

2. Joanne's drowning. We see Charlie screaming that somebody is drowning, Jack awakes from a flashback, of which I will elaborate further in number 3, below. Charlie tells Jack that he can't swim (how did he dive down to TLG, and swim into the moon pool, then swim to the sides of the pool, if he couldn't swin?).

Anyway, Jack jumps into the ocean, and saves Boone! I did not see two people drowning, in fact, as Jack got closer to Joanne he stopped in mid-stroke, and began to dive, retrieving Boone. Joanne drowns.

If there were two people drowning wouldn't Charlie have said something along the lines of there are two people drowning, or, 'people are drowning' ? And when TPTB scan the ocean, you only see one person screaming for help, which to me, sounded like a woman,....NOT Boone.

Did Joanne really drown? Her body never washed up. I think she was rescued by the girls in TLG.

3. Jack has a flashback to when he was a young boy, around 9 years old, where Christian tells him not to be a hero, not to try to save everybody. This is completely contrary to what Jack does on the island,...he, in fact, tries to save everybody, and is proclaimed a hero by his lostie friends, and off-island as well, in the finale of Season 3.

Christian further states,..."Because when you fail,...you just don't have what it takes." Now, that sounded like a broken thought to me, but it was clear that Christian doesn't think much of Jack's ability to lead. Yet, Jack becomes a leader on the island.

4. Locke goes to look for Jack, who chased an 'hallucination" of Christian, into the jungle. Christian's hallucination leads Jack to fresh water.

Locke tells the losties that he will find Jack, who ran off chasing his father's hallicunation,....and says to them "I know where to look." Kind of odd since they had only been on the island what,..five days, or so?

How would John Locke 'know where to look' for anybody on the island?
It's clear that Locke has a 'gift'. Precognition, time arching back on itself, time travel, whatever you want to label it, is fine with me, but it's clear that Locke has done this before.

5. Jack hallucinates three times in WR. To me, it shows that Jack has a propensity to" see things" when he is under stress. The first time was when they ran out of water.

Claire faints, Boone verbally assaults Jack for saving his life, and Jack hallucinates. Then, in the finale, perhaps Jack was hallucinating (again), a great part of what happened, and what we saw, from his point of view, may not have been accurate.

6. Kate announces that she is a Gemini,...the horoscope sign for duality. We know this is true. She repeatedly tries to help, save the losties, but finds herself involved romantically with yet, another man.

I believe Kate was involved with the U.S. Marshal. She is beginning to fall for Jack, and he for her, not to mention Sawyer's attraction to her. She can't help herself ;).

7. Kate follows Sawyer into the jungle and tackles him landing on top of his suitcase of stolen items.

Sawyer says to Kate "I made this Birthday wish four (4) years ago."

What does this mean? He wished for this exact same scenario, or he wished to be stranded on a deserted island with a beautiful woman? Either one is good, in my opinion, but it leaves that time theory open.

8. Locke tells Jack that he is a leader, Jack denies it. Locke tells Jack that he is hallucinating when Jack confides that he was chasing Christian.

Locke says that he doesn't believe in magic but "this place is special". He says that he looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful. At this point, all of the losties know there is something strange going on with the island.

Locke directs Jack to, "...finish what you started because a leader can't lead unless he knows where he's going." He then leaves Jack and searches for more water.

Again, Locke knows what is "supposed" to happen, and that Jack needs to be the hero of the losties for the plan to come to fruition. The same phrase applies to Locke and how he seems to 'know' what he is supposed to do.

9. The scene where Jack finds the cave. He finds the wreckage of what appears to be the same Oceanic flight that he was a passenger on, but, I swear the number on the wreckage said Flight 125! Not 815.

If you listen carefully in this flashback of Jack's, at this point, you see him in the airport at the Oceanic gate telling them that he needs to be in LA in 16 hours, in the background you hear:

"Flight 125 leaving non-stop to Singapore,....Gate 14,...".

This was really an eye-opener!!! What if they were not on 815, but on 125,...they would be off-course, and that would explain why Naomi, told Desmond, in a later episode, that all the passengers of flight 815 were dead! They are!

10. Charlie's tatoo. I saw a cursive tatoo on Charlie's left upper arm and I think it said "Living ____ with eyes _____."

My guess is "Living life with eyes closed." Charlie knows he's been asleep though out his life, and going through the motions. We will see a big change in Charlie, in the upcoming episodes to contradict his tatoo.

That's it for me. The flight was hijacked. Locke and Jack have 'information' regarding the nature of the island, and the scenario they are to follow. Locke more so. All of the losties have outstanding qualities, yes, even Charlie,...making for good DNA, and perhaps bad DNA, in the eyes of the puppet-master, who ever that is.

I guess I'm a bit behind on the rewinds but I'd like to echo lostinlaf's question:

What's up with Charlie saying 'I don't swim' and repeating it in a desperate tone ?

We know that he can swim thanks to The Greatest Hits and TTLG.Was that a continuation of the Charlie's coward theme established in Pilot Part 2 ( 'Every trek needs a coward') , was he seeing himself useless at that point and found himself too cowardly to try to swim ? Or was it simply a coninuity error on TPTB's part ?

1. The conversation on the beach between Kate and Claire regarding the lack of hairbrushes.

I now believe that the flight was arranged to crash, and the hairbrushes were taken sometime, either prior to lift-off, or on the beach when they slept, and were, used by the Others, or whoever was responsible for the crash, to check the losties DNA. All you need is a strand of hair with an attached root! DNA they could pull, but how would they know whose DNA it was coming from each brush? And the Others clearly seemed surprised by the plane crashing here on the island (per the opening sequence of Season 3).
(PS - I've been looking for those hairbrushes for a long time too, if you look over my avi. ;) )


2. Joanne's drowning. We see Charlie screaming that somebody is drowning, Jack awakes from a flashback, of which I will elaborate further in number 3, below. Charlie tells Jack that he can't swim (how did he dive down to TLG, and swim into the moon pool, then swim to the sides of the pool, if he couldn't swin?).

Anyway, Jack jumps into the ocean, and saves Boone! I did not see two people drowning, in fact, as Jack got closer to Joanne he stopped in mid-stroke, and began to dive, retrieving Boone. Joanne drowns.

If there were two people drowning wouldn't Charlie have said something along the lines of there are two people drowning, or, 'people are drowning' ? And when TPTB scan the ocean, you only see one person screaming for help, which to me, sounded like a woman,....NOT Boone.

Did Joanne really drown? Her body never washed up. I think she was rescued by the girls in TLG.
At one point while Jack was out in the water saving Boone, the camera does shift to another figure flailing further out, and we her her call out. So yes, there was a Joanna. Since there wasn't a Joanna by the time Jack got Boone back to shore, we can assume she was underwater, drowned. Or, it may be a fun theory that you propose - but then why didn't the writers allude to it when the action was in The Looking Glass hatch?


5. Jack hallucinates three times in WR. To me, it shows that Jack has a propensity to" see things" when he is under stress. The first time was when they ran out of water.
Claire faints, Boone verbally assaults Jack for saving his life, and Jack hallucinates. Then, in the finale, perhaps Jack was hallucinating (again), a great part of what happened, and what we saw, from his point of view, may not have been accurate. Locke, Eko, Kate, Charlie, Sayid, and Shannon (and I must have forgotten someone) also hallucinated, or at least saw something or someone that wasn't there or wasn't supposed to be there. Tells me there's something about the island, or else everyone's under a whole lot of stress. Well, both could be true. :biggrin:


6. Kate announces that she is a Gemini,...the horoscope sign for duality. We know this is true. She repeatedly tries to help, save the losties, but finds herself involved romantically with yet, another man.

I believe Kate was involved with the U.S. Marshal. She is beginning to fall for Jack, and he for her, not to mention Sawyer's attraction to her. She can't help herself ;).
Your last statement is so true - in her dealings with men in her life, she can't seem to help herself. I suppose you just meant Sawyer, but whatever.


7. Kate follows Sawyer into the jungle and tackles him landing on top of his suitcase of stolen items.

Sawyer says to Kate "I made this Birthday wish four (4) years ago."

What does this mean? He wished for this exact same scenario, or he wished to be stranded on a deserted island with a beautiful woman? Either one is good, in my opinion, but it leaves that time theory open.
It's ambiguous enough now to let the time-travel theorists take it and run. Or, with Sawyer having amply demonstrated his level of thought, he just wanted a pretty woman tackling him.

10. Charlie's tatoo. I saw a cursive tatoo on Charlie's left upper arm and I think it said "Living ____ with eyes _____."

My guess is "Living life with eyes closed." Charlie knows he's been asleep though out his life, and going through the motions. We will see a big change in Charlie, in the upcoming episodes to contradict his tatoo. In other scenes we see it says "Living is easy with eyes closed." Strawberry Fields Forever. Apt for a rock star. Is it Dom's tattoo or put on for Charlie?

Hi Workingmom,...regarding the hairbrushes,....maybe the Others didn't care who's brush was who's. Perhaps the Others have a set of criteria,...such as, general good health, etc.

If they find DNA that is 'imperfect' or damaged, then they would have to determine who it belonged to. I don't think they were looking for any one person, but profiles of the group. Thanks!

*Two odd lines that have always stuck out at me: Sayid saying, "She understands me!" when told to stop yelling at Sun and Sawyer saying, "I made this birthday wish four years ago," to kate while she's on top of him.


Sawyer’s comment always struck me as odd, and did again when I rewatched the epi last night. Am sure someone like him wouldn’t have needed to wait four years to have a pretty girl on top of him (!), so was it a direct wish about Kate? And does this mean that they knew each other before the crash?!?!?!

Another thing which struck me whilst re-watching the epi, which I never noticed before since we didn’t know about Dharma at the time. Is it just me, or is there a faint hexagonal Dharma logo on the plane wreckage behind Christian’s coffin? (It’s visible when Jack is examining the coffin whilst holding a flaming torch, just prior to opening the coffin).

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=16562&fullsize=1

Hildy, this also shows up on the Fuselage on the beach (I can't seem to find the cap right now). Supposedly it is really part of the plane's design.

Thanks for the screencap, SamG. Now I look at it again, it's not that much like the Dharma logo, is it? And there was me thinking I'd stumbled on some whopping great missing clue - doh!

Thanks for the screencap, SamG. Now I look at it again, it's not that much like the Dharma logo, is it? And there was me thinking I'd stumbled on some whopping great missing clue - doh!

Oh, don't worry, we all have our moments. I joined the fandom late and I've learned that the wheel has already been discovered.

Sawyer’s comment always struck me as odd, and did again when I rewatched the epi last night. Am sure someone like him wouldn’t have needed to wait four years to have a pretty girl on top of him (!), so was it a direct wish about Kate? And does this mean that they knew each other before the crash?!?!?!

I took it to mean he's been waiting a long time for this... in a very... metaphorical way. Just being a horndog. He keeps telling her he's been with girls like her, so I didn't think much of it. But then again, I'm the Queen of literal interpetations. :lol2:

B.t.w did you know that the doctor in the morgue is played by the same actor who appears in Pilot Part 1, as the survivor seen running on the beach yelling at someone to
100%
Hey, Clauds! Whaddaya mean, the wheel's already been discovered?!

The odd thing is that the wreckage is inside the caves. I want to know what happend to the coffin when Jack brought everyone back? Or was that just a Jack hallucination?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=17110&fullsize=1

The odd thing is that the wreckage is inside the caves. I want to know what happened to it all when Jack brought everyone back?

I don't remember how MUCH of it there is. I don't think he went back for a while and it is SO like Jack, the man who does dishes for therapy, to smash that coffin and then clean everything up. I just don't remember if that was physically possible for one man in one night.

B.t.w did you know that the doctor in the morgue is played by the same actor who appears in Pilot Part 1, as the survivor seen running on the beach yelling at someone to

I think I read somewhere they recycle extras but I never caught that one. I would have never known, had it not been for the eagle-eyed fandom.

Hey, Clauds! Whaddaya mean, the wheel's already been discovered?!

LOL! I was just being bitter that being somewhat of a newbie means I can't get these clues by myself most of the time because they're already on Lostpedia. But I'm grateful for our Eagle Eyes in this fandom. :biggrin:

I think I read somewhere they recycle extras but I never caught that one. I would have never known, had it not been for the eagle-eyed fandom.

LOL! I was just being bitter that being somewhat of a newbie means I can't get these clues by myself most of the time because they're already on Lostpedia. But I'm grateful for our Eagle Eyes in this fandom. :biggrin:


Don’t worry Claudia. Have to admit that I didn’t spot that the same bloke played survivor on the beach and the doctor in the morgue either. Read about it in a great book called “Finding Lost” which I’d definately recommend to any Lost fan for a really good breakdown and analysis of first two seasons. As for recycling exras, apparently the priest who takes Charlie's confession in "The Moth" flashbacks also appeared in episode 23 as the man with the electric chair that Hurley buys off him at the airport. Not sure whether any of this has any relevance in the grand scheme of things - probably just an in joke.

Re: the mysteriously disappearing coffin, yeah I’ve always wondered about that too. Perhaps it was just an hallucination, especially seeing as Jack never seemed that bothered to look for the missing corpse of his father.

Re: the mysteriously disappearing coffin, yeah I’ve always wondered about that too. Perhaps it was just an hallucination, especially seeing as Jack never seemed that bothered to look for the missing corpse of his father.

Oh, I think he smashed it to smithereens and it was all very real. It was his catharsis that night. When he comes back to the beach and talks to Kate about his father's death, he speaks so softly, like a burden has been lifted, but I also think it's only a temporary relief.

Speaking of coffins... (we're rewinding in the Den too so drop by, we're always up for Jack episodes and we miss you ;))... funerals and coffins are a recurring motif with Jack.

There's the obvious parllel with the coffin in the finale, but also the way he buries the Marshal alone in the jungle, away from the corpses they burn in the fuselage. He needed to do it and we were just discussing where that need came from.

Speaking of coffins... (we're rewinding in the Den too so drop by, we're always up for Jack episodes and we miss you ;))... funerals and coffins are a recurring motif with Jack.

There's the obvious parllel with the coffin in the finale, but also the way he buries the Marshal alone in the jungle, away from the corpses they burn in the fuselage. He needed to do it and we were just discussing where that need came from.


Aw thanks, Claudia, I will try and pop in for a natter in the Den at some point soon. Only reason why I haven’t posted there for a while was because you all seemed to be in the middle of the great Lost Rewind, and I hadn't started to rewatch the show from scratch until very recently. Fear not, though, I will be back!

I wonder whether Jack’s “need” to bury the Marshall himself came from his need for closure - much like he tells Chrissy that he needs to bury his father because he needs it to be “done” (or words to that effect, anyway!). Or maybe because he feels its some kind of punishment for euthanising the Marshall?

B.t.w Jack insisted that the bodies of the original crash victims had to be burned so prevent them being dug up and eaten by wild animals. So why was it ok for anyone who died after that to just be buried? Did all the wild animals on the island suddenly disappear, or what?! And I STILL find it a bit off that Jack never bothered to look for his father's corpse after finding the empty coffin - wouldn't he be even just a bit curious as to what had happened to it?!

Well, there's a difference from being a background and having lines, the guy that was Charlie's priest and the guy in the scooter both had lines.

No reason in the world to use the same actor unless it was intended. Although I think I read somewhere that this guy teaches acting or is head of the drama department at the University of Hawaii. The first season Lost was asked to do something at the scholl and met him then.


One of the rafties was also a flight attendant. Mrs. Hawking has shown up in a picture in Desmond's monistary.

I can't take credit for this, it's something TheSacrificeTheIslandDemanded noticed in our Jack thread, but the way Christian's appearance is shot at one point, we, the audience can see him before Jack can because Jack has his back turned to him. I have no idea if this is a clue, a clue, a clue!!! or it's just a neat visual intro, but I thought I should mention it.

32 minutes into the episode Claudia?

If that is what you're talking about then i totally agree. The way that scene was shot was for the viewer to see there is someone there and not for Jack. In order for it to be a hallucination, Jack would have to see it. He didn't!
100%
He obviously felt guilty about Claire because at the lowest point in his life, he tried to reconnect with her. Sure, it was motivated by his own needs, but I think he genuinely cared for the daughter he once sang lullabies to. I think those short moments where he was a warm, caring father were perhaps the ones where he shed his skin of Surgeon God and husband to a scarily cold and co-dependant Margo. (I'm surprised nobody's mentioned her yet.)

I believe Christian was righting a wrong here. The first time around (with Jack) he clearly did not have the right approach and we all know how that relationship ended. I'd like to think that Christian learned from his mistakes. He was trying to reconcile with Claire and maybe get it right the 2nd time around.

32 minutes into the episode Claudia?

If that is what you're talking about then i totally agree. The way that scene was shot was for the viewer to see there is someone there and not for Jack. In order for it to be a hallucination, Jack would have to see it. He didn't!

I think that's the time mark. I really can't take credit for it, TSTID brought it to our attention in the Jack thread. I'm pretty sure that's what she saw as well.

I believe Christian was righting a wrong here. The first time around (with Jack) he clearly did not have the right approach and we all know how that relationship ended. I'd like to think that Christian learned from his mistakes. He was trying to reconcile with Claire and maybe get it right the 2nd time around.

He had to go about it in his own special Christian way though. "Hi! I'm your long lost dad who has a family on another continent. I'm here to help you euthanize your mother."

I noticed a few things in this episde, most of which are trivial but I thought I'd bring them up anway.

*Kate tells Jack that Joanna wasn't supposed to be on the flight. She was on a scub-diving trip but got an ear infection. If she had an ear-infection then it wasn't too smart for her to go swimming in the first place.

*Sun suggests to Jin that they try harder to communicate, but Jin isn't interested in doing so. Why not? I sure as heck wouldn't want to be the only one not understanding what was going on.

*Jack's mom told him that Christian went to Australia. Since she knew where he went it made me wonder if she knew WHY he went (ie to see Claire)

*I think it's interesting that when Jack is talking to the people at the hotel, no one mentions that Christian was seen with another woman (Ana Lucia). But maybe that's just because TPTB hadn't written that angle yet.

*John tells Jack that he "looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful." I used to just think that he meant his healing. But after listening to the commentary on Walkabout where Terry says that he was told the monster was supposed to be the most beautiful thing he had ever seen it got me thinking that the monster must be the eye of the island. (BTW I don't think smokie is at all related to the hallucinations)

I noticed a few things in this episde, most of which are trivial but I thought I'd bring them up anway.

*Kate tells Jack that Joanna wasn't supposed to be on the flight. She was on a scub-diving trip but got an ear infection. If she had an ear-infection then it wasn't too smart for her to go swimming in the first place.



I think she was over the ear infection. The Dr. grounded her until it was gone. (That's how I understood it.)

Kate: Her name was Joanna, she wasn't supposed to be on the plane. She was scuba diving off the barrier reef and got an ear infection and so the doctor grounded her for 2 days. She bumped her flight. That's how she ended up with us.

Okay that does make more sense. Thanks for clearing that up SamG!

*Sun suggests to Jin that they try harder to communicate, but Jin isn't interested in doing so. Why not? I sure as heck wouldn't want to be the only one not understanding what was going on.

True, but I suppose Jin's distrustful of people and strangers in particular given the nature of his... job back home. He wants to protect his wife, but as we see during Aaron's birth, his raft expedition and later in season two on the other side of the island, he's becoming more integrated in the community and moves from "every man for himself" (and his family) to "live together, die alone".

*Jack's mom told him that Christian went to Australia. Since she knew where he went it made me wonder if she knew WHY he went (ie to see Claire)

Christian's infidelities were probably the kind of secret everyone knew and tacitly ignored, just like his alcoholism. I wouldn't be surprised if Margo knew. In fact, now that they're off the island (or at least Jack is), they might find out they're related after the rescue. We don't know if Margo knows, but Lindsey, Claire's aunt, is the one person who can make that connection. I'm sure she put two and two together when the story of Jack Shephard, a spinal surgeon from LA, surviving the crash became public.

*I think it's interesting that when Jack is talking to the people at the hotel, no one mentions that Christian was seen with another woman (Ana Lucia). But maybe that's just because TPTB hadn't written that angle yet.

Probably not, but in TFTR, we see that Ana and Christian didn't spend a lot of time together, she hadn't seen him in days.


(BTW I don't think smokie is at all related to the hallucinations)

I think the writers confirmed it is, though that doesn't mean much until we see it onscreen. Speaking of which... Here's the POV shot of Christian behind Jack. (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/MrsJackShephard/s1/White%20Rabbit/smokey.jpg) I don't see it as irrefutable evidence of anything, I just think it's a cool detail.

Ditto kudos on the Hamlet reference, very niceley spotted. This whole episode is one of Jack's best.

"Was Christian the monster? What evidence is there for and against it?"

Regardless of whether it was the monster, I believe it was the same thing Locke saw. Right before Jack's father looks him in the eye, Jack looks in a break in the trees where white light and white smoke dominate the screen. Locke has described his encounter in Walk About as a white light and the most beautiful thing he has seen. Shortly afterwards both find a key to the survior's, well, survival: food (Locke's boar) and water/shelter (Jack's caves). Whatever Christian was, it was something we had seen before.

Walk About and White Rabbit almost need to be viewed together. There is a neat duality in these episodes that remains fascinating even after Jack and Locke's later character development.

Just started re watching this episode today....Charlie cannot swim yet he deals with the looking glass station that causes his fateful death? Did not remember him not being about to swim! (having gotten through this whole thread, hope it wasn't a repost)
100%
Finally got through this thread....one thing that I didnt see mentioned is that the monster seems to take the forms of people that are important in characters' lives. jack- father, echo- brother, Ben- mother, Hugo- Dave? (i think) This smoke monster has the ability, that could be the island as well, to know the inner most thoughts, fears and troubles of peoples' pasts and brings these out in hallucination's (if you can even call them that). Was Christian the monster? or was the monster Christian?

After tonight episode I'd like to throw out Sawyer and Juliet as Adam and Eve, I doubt this will be the case but I just thought about it.

White Rabbit

This is a brilliant episode! I love it!
First- the main character of ‘Lost’ and the person who is the center of this episode- Dr. Jack Shepard
I really liked the season 1 Jack. (I don’t like the flashforward Jack though).
He is always trying to be the responsible doctor, trying his best to save others.
Jack doesn’t hesitate to risk his life to save others, even strangers!
Btw, Boone is so annoying. Jack freakin’ saved his life and yet he scolds Jack?
Jack blames himself for not being able to save Joanna, he is too harsh of himself.
If you recall, in one episode of season3- Claire almost drowned in the same manner as Joanna. Is there any significance to that?
Also, notice that this is the first incident where Jack saves Boone. The 2nd time is in ‘Do No Harm’, where he fails this time round.
I really like how Jack was finally back to his old self again at the end of the episode, when he took charge again. Like it or not, the survivors need a leader, someone to guide them and tell them what to do.

And notice too that later on in this episode, Jack himself actually needed saving….when he almost fell from the cliff. That was literally a cliffhanger! That was my favourite scene of the episode actually, how Locke saved Jack from plunging to his death.

This is the first episode where we are introduced to Christian Shepard, Jack’s father.
We all know that Christian is dead. What actually is Christian then? An apparition?
A form of the smoke monster? A manifestation of the island? Or maybe, just maybe he is still alive?
Towards the end of the episode, when Jack opened the coffin to find that the corpse was not there….that was eerie….
What lousy advise Christian gave his son! Telling Jack not to make decisions because ‘he doesn’t have what it takes.’ As a result, Jack grew up thinking that he can’t, because he doesn’t have what it takes. Parents, be careful with the words you use on your children, it might affect them psychologically when they grow up.

Notice that Christian appeared in the sea, not long after Joanna drowned. Eerie.
Also, when Jack saw the apparition of his father in the jungle and gasped ‘Dad?’ It was with the exact same intonation that Claire used when Christian appeared to her in ‘Something Nice Back Home’. One thing for sure, Christian has a message to convey to both of this children.

Margo’s advise to Jack is a contrast to Christian’s advise….’You don’t get to say I can’t.

The water crisis was fascinating to watch as well. Did we actually find out who the culprit stealing the water is? Because I don’t think the culprit was revealed in this episode….

Locke- raises suspicion when he volunteers to go get the water supply alone. This water crisis shows that when people get hungry and thirsty, they become desperate and start pointing fingers at each other.
When Sayid confronted Jin and Sun- it must’ve been painful for Sun- as she could totally understand and speak English, but had to refrain herself from doing so.


Again, in this episode we see more bonding among the survivors-Sawyer and Shannon (hilarious exchange!), Kate and Claire, Hurley, Charlie and Jack, more Jate! And of course, Claire and Charlie, the sweetest couple ever J

Best scenes: Jack dangling on a cliff, the very first Skate moment, the Locke and Jack conversation about faith vs science

Best lines:- ‘ Great, and now the only hunter is going to get eaten just because some pregnant girl needs water’- Claire

(Kate pounces on Sawyer, thinking he stole the water)
Sawyer: Well, it’s about time. I made this birthday wish 4 years ago!

‘I’m chasing something, someone. The person whom I’m seeing is not there. – Jack

‘What is everything that happens here happens for a reason? I looked into the eye of the island, and what I saw was beautiful’ – Locke

‘Every man for himself is not going to work. If we are not going to live together, we’re gonna die alone.’ - Jack


Rating : 8.5

[quote=BeLu;1609602]ISABEL [to Jack]: "He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us." Your tattoos -- that's what they say.
JACK: That's what they say. That's not what they mean.

JACK: Do you see who I am, Achara?
ACHARA: Yes.
JACK: Who am I?
ACHARA: You are a leader, a great man. But this, this makes you lonely, and frightened, and angry.
JACK: Now, put it on me. Put it on me!
ACHARA: No. This, this is against my people.
[Jack pushes Achara to the tattoo station and takes his shirt off.]
ACHARA: There will be consequences, Jack.
JACK: There always are.

quote]

"He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us." - I've wondered about the meaning of this. I've been drawn to the possibility that Jack has been to the island before or that this is his second time there to make do things the right way. One of the things that led me to think this is when Locke said to Jack in TTLY (season 3) that he's not supposed to do this (as in call the freighter people). OR - I always found it really odd how Jack woke up in the jungle in the pilot episode. I'd like to see a flashback of how he wound up in the jungle after the plane crashed!

I'm with you on the Charlie not swimming thing. There's some things that just don't add up with Charlie. He says to Jack that he doesn't swim when the woman is drowning in the ocean, yet he dives to the rescue in the Looking Glass eppy.

Another thing that I still don't get is how he got to end up with the fusies when he was sitting in the front part of the plane. Still doesn't make sense to me.

I still think Old Smokey is nothing more than the real spirit of the island trying to preserve and protect this island in the midst of all those parallel time lines. The island is like a black hole in between the time belts.

Or not ;-) only time will tell

This was day 6

I know we have debated the "don't swim" vs the "can't swim", look ate Charlie's face, whatever the reason, he's horrified that he isn't able to go into the water and help.

Sawyer starts to build his reputation. He would have given Shannon the bug spray for nothing. It was her assumption that he wanted something that pushed his button.

Ah, the fabulous missing hairbrushes.
Kate's concern over Claire fainting seems even more touching now.

Jack in Christian's hotel room "Who leaves his wallet?"

Is it number 2 of the memorable trips? Charlie in part 2 of the pilot and Jack going over the cliff.

Claire : "It's like I'm this time bomb of responsibility just waiting to to go off."

Kate and Sayid follow Sawyer to his stash looking for the missing water, Kate tackles Sawyer and he delivers the line about "Well it's about time" " I made this birthday wish 4 years ago."

LOCKE
The first reveal - this Island is different , it's special.
What if everything that happened here, happened for a reason - (so much more than we realized.)
I've looked into the eye of this island and what I saw was beautiful -

Jack is beating apart the coffin and we cut to a shot of, what looks like, the reversed Big Dipper. (@ 36:54)

Although, Sawyer is passing it off as a joke, it stings to be on the most hated list.

Although, Sawyer is passing it off as a joke, it stings to be on the most hated list.

Two things struck me about this interaction. One was Sawyer's apparent realization that he didn't have a corner on the misery market, that he was not alone. This occurred right after Jack's 'live together or die alone' speech, along with images of Jin comforting Sun and Michael bringing water for Vincent, and an admission by Jack to Kate that he missed his dad. I'm guessing that season six will see the lostaways pulling together for a change.

The other thing that struck me about Sawyers comment was his choice of words...

SAWYER: So how does it feel?

BOONE: How does what feel?

SAWYER: Taking my place at the top of everyone's most hated list. Sucks, don't it?A proxy, perhaps?


Other notes from my re-watch:

Locke assuring Jack that he wasn't crazy ("Crazy people don't know they're going crazy. They think they're getting sane."). This sounded suspiciously similar to Jacob's reassurance to Hurley in the cab ("I've got some news for you, Hugo, and you're just gonna have to take my word on this. You're not crazy."). Maybe Jacob and his nemesis have been vying for Locke's allegiance all along.

Claire's comment to Charlie in the tent after she had passed out..."Great. Our only hunter's going to get eaten just so he can get the pregnant girl some water". Possibly a foreshadowing of John getting 'swallowed up' by Smokey/MiB?

I thought it was interesting that Jack was looking at his own reflection in a window when his mother let him know that his father was gone, and that this time it was 'different'. Is Jack destined to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' as well?

When Christian was leading Jack to fresh water in the caves, I wondered whether he may eventually be shown to have served the same purpose as Abaddon...to 'get people where they need to get to'.

If there is a reset, could Sawyer's birthday wish, four year's ago, cover some of the years Sawyer was in 1974-1977

The only thing that seems odd to me is that Sayid seems pretty sure Sun speaks English ... and I dont think it has to do with his interrogating skills

Christian's empty coffin really emphasizes how strange it was to see dead Locke in the finale. Where is Christian's body?

I was thinking the same thing too..... Where is Christian's body and more importantly, how he died in Sydney? The explaining of heart attack is just not satisfying.

I was thinking the same thing too..... Where is Christian's body and more importantly, how he died in Sydney? The explaining of heart attack is just not satisfying.
Although, there were drugs in Christian's room that point to some heart problem. We know Christian was there with Anna Lucia but we never saw either of them smoke and there were cigarettes and a lighter in Christian's room.

I thought he'd just drunk himself to death?

I recall Sayid insisting that Sun could understand him; I think as an interrogator, he's good at reading people's faces, and perhaps he spotted Sun working hard to remain bland?

Great episode, overall. A favourite after all this time!

Christian does have that Abbadon vibe, BickeFitch: after all, he told Locke to move the FDW and get off the island too. Then he 'took' Claire to the cabin, where she was apparently 'supposed' to be too.

I just rewatched this again and I really love this episode. From what we know at end of Season 5, we see Jacob using Christian to start Jack's path to ultimately what happens at end of season 6.

The Smoke Monster Locke sees is MIB starting using Locke as his Loophole. How do you get Locke to follow. Show him something beautiful....Kill the Boar for him to make him feel special...Get him to go to the exact location Jack is falling off cliff to save him....

It's great to go back and put pieces together............

Connrick, I couldn't agree more! I have started to watch the first season and will continue through season five in anticipation for the last season. So many things make more sense.

This episode in particular really resonated with me and I can't help but think that while Locke ended up being the loophole for the "Man in Black"...what if Christian was actually the loophole for Jacob? Trying to figure out how that is possible makes my head hurt but the similarities of Locke coming back to the island as Christian did (aka in a coffin)... I can't help but think that something is definitely going on there.

I just wanted to comment on the Charlie not being able to swim issue. Perhaps since Charlie was pretty much always using heroin at that point maybe he didn't feel he could swim while drugged out.

It could also just have been he was too afraid to risk his life by going to save someone else. Thus we see his character grow to the point he is willing to not just risk his life, but give up his life for someone else.

I just wanted to comment on the Charlie not being able to swim issue. Perhaps since Charlie was pretty much always using heroin at that point maybe he didn't feel he could swim while drugged out.

It could also just have been he was too afraid to risk his life by going to save someone else. Thus we see his character grow to the point he is willing to not just risk his life, but give up his life for someone else.


I totally agree with you.Charlie didn't want to swim because he was under the influence of drugs. His addiction was the main reason for his selfishness. When he finally gave up drugs, he started caring about the other survivors and he showed his feelings towards Claire. However, Charlie always had a hero quality in his character. He was the one who went down the cave to rescue Jack.

Great point! I loved Charlie here too, because even during the heroin phase he was genuinely concerned about Claire.

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/SamG1/?action=view&current=lostep050609.jpg i pulled this picture up yesterday for another thread. The bottle that has the date 9/05/04, at the top does it look like it says Dr. Chang to any one else?

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/SamG1/?action=view&current=lostep050609.jpg i pulled this picture up yesterday for another thread. The bottle that has the date 9/05/04, at the top does it look like it says Dr. Chang to any one else?

I'm not so sure. The only letters that I can say for sure are "_ R . C _ ___" It could be a 'D' before the 'R,' but it also can be an S.

I see Dr. Ch

...but that could be Christian or Chang.

I'm taking the DVD to the HDTV and see if I can zoom in on it.

That's the way to do it. Personally, I see the first letter as a g, lowercase, so who knows? Higher resolution is the way to go.

re: Christian being the loophole, I just re-watched white rabit tonight and had very similar thoughts, that, "Christian," has been illegally inhabiting the cabin all along, while Jacob has been MIA. It also was particularly curious John showed up right when Jack was about to fall from the cliff, like the two of them were working together from the beginning. Has Locke always been, "not-Locke." Rewatching season 1, I remember how very suspicisous he has seemed all along, somehow fundamentally connected to MIB.

I'm leaning toward the idea that MIB (or whatever we want to call him) was trying to take over John from the moment of the crash, but I think there may have been a struggle between the two. When we saw John in the world before the crash, he was beaten down, pathetic, depressed, hopeless. I think this is the real John. The wise island man with the scary knives and mad boar-killing skillz was the MIB trying to get in there and take over.

Real John was pounding on the hatch door in frustration. Or throwing dishes against the wall in a temper. MIB was predicting rain and fighting polar bears.