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tomten3000
03-09-2005, 01:19 PM
Okay, wild speculation here, folks. Hopefully I can support this notion with some circumstantial evidence, too.

I believe, for the time being, that our survivors have crashed in Eden. And that, as the story progresses, they will discover the fabled “garden.”

What led me to this theory? Well, a couple things that I’ve read in this forum and another. And a strange string of seemingly unconnected ideas.

First, the number 42

In all the wild calculations and mystic postulations about Hurley’s cursed line of numbers, I was most interested in the “PowerBall” number – 42. And only then for humorous reasons.

I thought it a coincidence that this number would show up, given its prominence in other works, specifically Douglas Adams’ “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.” (Note, from Wikipedia: “The popularity of this book has made this number pop up in many unexpected contexts, usually inserted by fans; for instance, it is used as an identifier at the beginning of every TIFF-file. The official TIFF specification says, “this value was chosen for its deep philosophical significance.”)

In the book, the number 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. It was calculated by a great super-computer (this computer, it turns out, is the planet Earth). Problem is, no one knows what the question to life, the universe and everything is – or was.

That aside, the important note here is that 42 is directly related to “life, the universe, and everything” – which seems to be what this series is about.

Next, what Javier said

Then there’s this. Answering the question, “What’s in Sawyer’s library?” on TheFuselage.com, Javier Grillo-Marxuach, “Lost” writer and supervising producer, answered: “i'm sure that there is a surfeit of mitch albom, dan brown, john grisham and "left behind" books lying about, but maybe sawyer just has an apetite for thematically relevant stuff.”

So what have these authors written? What’s the thread that connects their work? Let’s take a look:

Mitch Albom: “The Five People You Meet in Heaven,” in which a man reviews his life after he dies through those “five people.”

Dan Brown: “The Da Vinci Code,” in which an adventurer uncovers the true meaning of the Holy Grail by following a series of clues hidden in Da Vinci’s work.

“Left Behind”: A fantasy series about a group of people left behind when the rapture occurs.

(Grisham is more difficult for me, other than his ability to create twists and turns … I don’t know what “connects” him to these other works.)

What this tells me is that there is a definite “spiritual” aspect to this island. The natural and supernatural occur. The island gives life and takes it away. So what could it be?

Eden

Why else would Adam and Eve be there? Why else would there by a "monster" that takes on different forms (like Satan taken the form of a snake) be lurking about? Could the Hatch be the "Tree of Knowledge”? Is opening the Hatch like biting from the apple?

Let’s see if our strange land fits the mold.

First, what and where is Eden?

Eden is the larger territory in which the biblical “garden” is planted. Eden is paradise, essentially. If our “Lost” creators are creating liberally (much like Dan Brown did in “The Da Vinci Code), then we can look to various theories as to its location.

Some theorize that Eden is located in Sundaland, which today is the South China Sea. The South China Sea is a marginal sea, part of the Pacific Ocean, encompassing an area from Singapore to the Strait of Taiwan. The minute South China Sea Islands, collectively an archipelago, number in the hundreds.

Others theorize that it is part of Atlantis.

And that’s certainly out in the middle of the nowhere isn’t it?

Those unlucky numbers

Want some (possible) number connections? Here are a couple.

Historians connect Eden with the island of Dilmun (now Bahrain) in the Persian Gulf (is Sayid originally from Bahrain, I wonder?). Dilmun is sometimes described as 'the place where the sun rises' and 'the Land of the Living' After its actual decline, beginning about 1500 B.C., Dilmun developed such a reputation as a long-lost garden of exotic perfections that it appears to have influenced the story of the Garden of Eden.

Please note the year of Dilmun’s decline: 1500 B.C. (tie that to our number 15).

And then there’s this:

The word "paradise" that Christians have made a synonym for the Garden of Eden is a Persian word, which describes a walled orchard garden or an enclosed hunting park (more on this in a moment).The word (or such) occurs three times in the Old Testament. In the Song of Solomon, it is clearly "garden;" in the second and third examples "park.":

In the Song of Solomon iv. 13: "Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard" ;

Ecclesiastes ii. 5: "I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits";

And in Nehemiah ii. 8: "And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's orchard, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me. "

Now, let’s take one step back and look at something again.

Lewis Caroll, the number 42, and the Garden of Eden

The number 42 fascinated Lewis Caroll, author of “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” (tie this to “Lost” via the episode “White Rabbit,” a clear nod to Caroll). For example, in Carroll's book “The Hunting of the Snark,” the Baker, one of 12 adventurers hunting a legendary beast in a strange land, left 42 pieces of luggage on the pier prior to his overseas journey.

Now wait a minute. That sounds familiar. And didn’t we just say that the word "paradise," a synonym for the Garden of Eden, describes an enclosed hunting park? An island is pretty enclosed. And there is a beast lurking about.

Want to know more?

The hunt in Caroll’s book is led by the Bellman, who takes the 12 across the sea by way of his map of the Ocean--a blank sheet of paper. The hunting party arrive in a strange land. Could the 12 be our main characters (though we’ve 14)? The blank map the bad radar that sent flight 815 off course? And the strange land our strange land?

The Baker recalls that his uncle once warned him that, though catching Snarks was all well and good, you must be careful; for, if your Snark is a Boojum, then "you will softly and suddenly vanish away, and never be met with again." Hmmm, sounds like our monster is a Snark. Or is it a boojum, a dangerous snark? Or, perhaps, a frumious bandersnatch? A bandersnatch is described as moving swiftly, having a neck it can extend, and having snapping, frumious jaws, which with it tries to grab the Banker.

Our snark adventurers split up to hunt. Along the way, the Butcher and Beaver become fast friends, the Barrister falls asleep, and the Banker loses his sanity after being attacked by a frumious Bandersnatch. At the end, the Baker calls out that he has found a snark; but when the others arrive he has mysteriously disappeared. I don’t know about you, but these sound like episodes of “Lost” to me.

A long digression, but remember this: Caroll’s land is a strange one, a hunting park, a “paradise,” by its old meaning, in which characters like Hope and Care come along for the ride. Caroll wrote the story when he was 42 years old. And the dark tale has much to do with life and death.

Spiritual indeed.

gotcris
03-09-2005, 04:31 PM
WOW! There was a lot of thought put into that. That's a very good theory.

Sayid mentioned he is from Tikrit, Iraq... but perhaps that is just his last home and not where he was born. Who knows...

I definitely think that there are certain theologic/religious themes that maybe the underlying current to the show. Light/Dark and all that. While it has been confirmed that the passengers are not dead, I've not read (in the 1000s of possible threads) that the Lostaways couldn't be on some Eden-type island.

The guess-timated age of Adam & Eve on the island was put between 40 and 50 years. I think that it is definitely they were called Adam & Eve for the same reason that the other religious-esque themes are there. There are tons of metaphors that could be made.

If there is some kind of super computer type thing going on behind the hatch... that certainly could be a type of 'knowledge tree.'

I am surprised that there isn't a specific religion person on the island. A priest, ordained minister, someone... to make some of these connections. Locke the philosopher doesn't count.

Anyway... Just thought I'd put my $.02 in. Good stuff!

JohnnyREB1977
03-10-2005, 09:05 AM
tomten,

Very well thought out theory. I think you might be on to something. Although, I think that it's less about Eden than it is about giving another nod to Lewis Carrol.

tomten3000
03-10-2005, 10:11 AM
You're probably right. My guess is that the island is its own thing and the story is its own thing, but there are themes that pay homage to similar works.

My other "deep thought" was that this island lures lost souls to it, helps them "find their way," and, once they do, they are able to leave the island -- whether that be alive or dead. Those that escape might discover that their memory of the island is somewhat cloudy, but they wish to express the experience in some way. Some may do it through music, some through art -- others through writing.

Since Javi mentioned that Dan Brown was a thematically imporant author whose books "might be found" on the island, I've started to hold to this notion that there are HUGE clues in the episodes, in the background, in the words the characters speak. This would be similar to Brown's use of Da Vinci's art, theorizing that it holds "clues" to a great truth.

My fun theory for the morning is that some of these books may have been written by "survivors" of the island, in particular Lewis Caroll, who uses some of the numbers (8, 42) in "The Hunting of the Snark." At the end of the story, the "Baker" finds the Snark -- but it turns out to be a Boojum -- and he disappears from the island.

Some speculate that the "Baker" was supposed to be Caroll himself. So what if "The Hunting of the Snark" is a story written about the island some century or so ago?

Does that make sense?

Datenshi
01-27-2006, 10:31 AM
I thought about this too and did a search in the posts for the word eden and found this one. My thoughts are pretty much along the same lines except that Dharma used the island to 'recreate' Eden and that it isn't the actual Eden referred to in the bible. Perhaps the hatches were observation posts used to observe 'Adam' and 'Eve' and make reports. Sort of an experiment to see if humans would make the same choices they supposedly did in the bible. Is it in our nature (or genetics) to choose evil and not be able to resist temptation?

Datenshi

Simplist
01-27-2006, 12:22 PM
what i like about this theory is it addresses the ISLANDS specialness and ancientness... both key factors that don't get a lot of attention...

Baileysdad
01-27-2006, 12:31 PM
Fantastic research...Dan Brown would be proud:)

Moonchime
01-27-2006, 12:53 PM
That's a great theory. Something else to consider: When God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden Of Eden, he put 4 angels with flaming swords around it to keep people from entering and eating from the Tree of Life--lest they live forever.

Could this be what the "monster" is?? An angel guarding that certain Tree???~Moonchime

AnalogKid
01-27-2006, 01:08 PM
Really well thought out! Even if this isn't what's going on, that was still interesting to contemplate.
The only thing I can think to add at this point is quite a large stretch :)

"Zeke" is God. Reason - him talking about people opening doors they shouldn't be opening (eating fruit they shouldn't be eating). Though granted, nobody told them not to open the hatch. Like I said, a large stretch.

ameryth74
01-27-2006, 02:48 PM
I like the idea... here's a link to another theory that supports the garden of eden idea, but from another angle...

http://www.evankroberts.com/2006/01/theory-behind-abcs-lost.html (http://www.evankroberts.com/2006/01/theory-behind-abcs-lost.html)

JohnnyREB1977
01-27-2006, 03:15 PM
Woah. Haven't seen this theory in ages!

Really well thought out! Even if this isn't what's going on, that was still interesting to contemplate.
The only thing I can think to add at this point is quite a large stretch :)

"Zeke" is God. Reason - him talking about people opening doors they shouldn't be opening (eating fruit they shouldn't be eating). Though granted, nobody told them not to open the hatch. Like I said, a large stretch.

Analog,

Yeah, I think this is a little bit of a stretch. I don't know if I can get behind Zeke as God. However, I do like the idea of Zeke trying to seem "omniscient". Going back to last season, he finds Walt, Sawyer, Jin and Michael and states unequivocally "We'll need to take the boy" as if he knew he'd find them. He uses Sawyer', Locke's and Jack's names in a pretty familiar way during "The Hunting Party". He knows about them going into the hatch, eating the food, ect. I believe he knows all of this because either: a) there's a mole or b) he and the Others have some way of monitoring the situation.

BTW, I do like the idea of the Others actually being guardians of whatever is on the Island.

AnalogKid
01-27-2006, 11:06 PM
I probably should have put "God" in quotation marks. He does like to seem omniscient, even if he probably is not.

SQT
01-28-2006, 01:05 AM
That's a great theory. Something else to consider: When God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden Of Eden, he put 4 angels with flaming swords around it to keep people from entering and eating from the Tree of Life--lest they live forever.

Could this be what the "monster" is?? An angel guarding that certain Tree???~Moonchime


Nice idea Moonchime, could this be why Eko was marking the trees that he "liked." Maybe he thinks they're in Eden too...

Great theory tomten. Quite a bit of thought and research put into it, well done!

SQT

Dr. Suds
01-28-2006, 03:20 AM
In all the wild calculations and mystic postulations about Hurley’s cursed line of numbers, I was most interested in the “PowerBall” number – 42. And only then for humorous reasons.

I thought it a coincidence that this number would show up, given its prominence in other works, specifically Douglas Adams’ “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.” (Note, from Wikipedia: “The popularity of this book has made this number pop up in many unexpected contexts, usually inserted by fans; for instance, it is used as an identifier at the beginning of every TIFF-file. The official TIFF specification says, “this value was chosen for its deep philosophical significance.”)

In the book, the number 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. It was calculated by a great super-computer (this computer, it turns out, is the planet Earth). Problem is, no one knows what the question to life, the universe and everything is – or was.

A friend of mine and of Damon named John figured it out: "What is paradise?" If you sum all the pips on a pair o' dice, you get 42. So it fits nicely with your idea. John's sure his question for The Answer came up in discussion with David Lindelof, Damon's father, and Damon may have heard it. Or Damon may have solved it independently.

More importantly, John saw parallels between Milton's Paradise Lost and Lost, so recently he lent me Cliff's Notes to the poem. I see parallels there too, just not exactly the same ones John saw!

The Losties didn't land in Eden, they landed in Hell as rebellious angels, and Jack, waking up on his back, corresponds to Milton's Satan. Eden is the Swan bunker, which the rebellious angels snuck into. If the Losties do battle some other group in "Heaven" (which may be the volcanic mtn. to the north), then the ones they battle (Pirates, Seabillies, Others, Them, whoever) must correspond to the God-loyal angels. Desmond was "of Earth", put there by Calvin (well, Milton was Calvinist), but he fled Eden. (Not that I actually believe Calvin/Kelvin existed in the world of Lost, but we're talking symbolism here.) The cable Sayid & Hugo found is how Earth is suspended in space.

Robert

myothercarisflight815
04-29-2006, 12:03 PM
Ok. I am wondering if anyone would like to chew on this thread a little bit with me.

I had a dream last night that Sayid was trying to kill Henry Gale, but just "couldn't". It wasn't possible.

I posted in another thread that it seemed odd that Henry was so insistant that Sayid couldn't kill him because he is a a bad person. I have been focusing on the good/bad... but maybe he isn't a person at all. What if he is some sort of an angel or something. Maybe a bad angel. I know people have posted about Watchers. Regretfully, I don't really know much about Watchers or angels so hopefully folks out there can help me out with this.

I did look up though that Lucifer was called the "angel of light" and in the Bible it says:

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! - John 8:43-45

Henry has done nothing but lie.

But then I got to thinking... maybe some (or all) of our losties are some sort of angels in one form or another? So if the island is some sort of eden (manufactured or otherwise) maybe there is some sort of crazy battle between the good and bad angels and somehow our losties got mixed up in it. Like maybe they're all angels "gone wrong" so they survived the crash but don't know they're angels.

It's kind of out there, but hey, why not.

Canti999
05-01-2006, 04:42 AM
That's a great theory. Something else to consider: When God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden Of Eden, he put 4 angels with flaming swords around it to keep people from entering and eating from the Tree of Life--lest they live forever.

Could this be what the "monster" is?? An angel guarding that certain Tree???~Moonchime

Heh... Its starting to sound like Neon Genesis Evangelion