Possibly, but I looked earlier and at the time we were discussing it on dnalsI ehT I definitely referred to it as the Survivor Guide. And I'm pretty sure that Survivor Guide was longer than that. That looks like it's probably just the part up to the first commercial break.

Well, the LostPedia page for LOST: The Answers (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Answers) has this listed in the Answers Given section...

The manifestations on the Island (Yemi, the horse, Christian Shephard, ...) are confirmed to be connected to the Monster

As soon as I've got time I'll transcribe the relevant bit, YouTube links are in a previous post should anyone want to watch.

ETA: Here's a transcript from LOST: The Answers...

Carlton Cuse: The first mystery of the island was when all of a sudden the trees were moving and our characters heard a noise and they're wondering what the heck is going on out there?

Damon Lindelof: The first question is what does that thing look like? Is it a dinosaur? Is the Monster man-made? We don't know. Does the Monster have some sort of abilty to judge you? Locke passed it the first time he saw it but then later on the Monster grabbed him and tried to pull him into a hole? And then what does it do with that judgement? It's a very interesting question as we move forward on the show.

DL: Now we've seen what it looks like on several occasions, it's this sort of column of mysterious black smoke. This season when the Monster experiences Juliet we see several flashes, almost as if it's taking pictures of her. Is the Monster a manifestation of The Island? We don't know. We do know that when it looks at you it seems to be able to process cetain memories that you may have had.

Voice Over: And some memories can become quite real.

CC: We have learned that The Island is capable of these aparitions, Jack can see his dead father, Walt, who is off in some in some other place, mysteriously appears for Shannon and Sayid. Kate see's a Horse that was part of her past. All these characters were seeking redemption for misdeeds of their past.

Interesting that Damon says "we don't know" (read: "we're not telling yet") when posing the question "Is the Monster a manifestation of The Island?" because in the very next sentence Carlton tells us that we've learned it is the island that is manifesting these visions.

Hmmm. That sounds like what I was saying, but I think there still might be another comment on the Survivor Guide. I seem to remember (though it was some time ago, so I could very easily be wrong) that the word "manifestation" was used to describe the apparitions directly - while here it's more indirect, that Smokey might be a manifestation of the Island and that the Island causes the apparitions. And also I think it said something about the manifestations being there to guide them on their paths, or something like that.

But anyway, I guess that transcript proves our point, regardless.

Perhaps. The nagging thing about all the encounters (except for Walt, that one time) is that they occurred to a single person. No one else but Jack saw Christian. No one else but Eko saw Yemi. No one else but Hugo saw Dave.
----
Nice post indeed, wesb.

Good argument about "wanting to operate", JuniebunThanks, het_genie. Personally, I think that Ben's motives for saying that he "wanted Jack to want to do the operation" is that he knows that certain people, when they're on the Island, can "want" and will things to happen. I'd say Jack and the other Losties are probably some of these unique people. I'd also say that these people and things that the Losties have seen on the Island are sort of coming from the same "source", so to speak - their brains - in conjunction with Smokey doing a little playing around with them. The people and things that have appeared as visions on the Island are seemingly downloaded memories from the Losties meshing with reality. As Others (not the Others...LOL!) have said before me, I think that that Smokey can bring out or download these specific memories because they are symbols of the strongest or most pressing memories in the Losties' brains. The strongest or most pressing memories are popping into the forefront of the Losties' brains, subconsciously representing what the Losties want and need to deal with as of late...the issues that they want to resolve and that they have to resolve or they'll explode...

het,
You're forgetting Kate's horse - Sawyer saw that too.I don't know what to think about that one. Is it just saying that Kate and Sawyer are two of these unique people? Or, is it that once a memory, or part of it, are downloaded, they can be seen by everyone in the area - they're part of the fabric of reality once they're available? Shannon and Sayid both saw Walt, too...

Why can't a manifestation be solid and really there? Perhaps "the box" is able to produce real, functional items and living things. If so, it's no wonder that Hanso wanted to do research on the island and others are trying to find it. Controlling "the box" would be a huge source of wealth and power. I've been suggesting that the drug plane was a manifestation, and it contained a working radio. (It also "unburnt" itself when it was revisited after they set it aflame. It was not just created but re-created...)The more that I think about it, wesb (and everyone else), I think that the "box" that Ben talks about is everyone's brains/minds - those people that are unique like the Losties...he just doesn't want to tell them what they're capable of...

Locke saw Yemi in that bizarre dream, in which he himself seemed to be Eko.I've had dreams where someone does not look like the person that they're supposed to be...like it's my boss in my dream, but it looks like the mailman...

The out and out statement that these things were manifestations taken from their pasts was on the Lost Survivors Guide - just looking, but can't find a Transcript anywhere.

I also remember Carlton Cuse joking about how we had seen all these things manifested and that in an upcoming ep we'd see Sayid's cat. Obviously he was referring to Enter 77, and it wasn't actually Sayid's cat. But it's obvious what he meant, and so, again, he confirmed that all these things are manifestations taken from their pasts.

I remember it all well because it confirmed a part of my dnalsI ehT theory.Totally agree that these visions are coming from the Losties' memories. Each person or thing or animal in the visions are symbols of the Losties' most pressing and urgent memories...

I've had dreams where someone does not look like the person that they're supposed to be...like it's my boss in my dream, but it looks like the mailman...

Not the same at all. Locke had never seen Yemi.
And in his 'dream', Locke himself was Eko.

My point was that Locke saw Yemi, like Sawyer saw the horse, and Sayid saw Walt. So the phenomena, whatever it is, isn't limited to the perception of the person with the strong memory or emotion.

Juniebun >
I've had dreams where someone does not look like the person that they're supposed to be...like it's my boss in my dream, but it looks like the mailman...


Exactly. That was part of my thinking behind the idea that they have someone else's memories. I think it is very easy for the mind to "paste" one image over someone else's, subconsciously.

That said, the FF with Jack in the real world being recognised as Jack would seem to knock that idea on the head. Unless they got into the idea that what we were seeing was how Jack was envisaging things, and so what everyone else was really seeing wasn't actually Jack, but Juniebun's postman, for example. :biggrin: Seriously, though, there is that possibility of everyone else seeing someone else, but I think that would alienate the audience.
But yeah, that thing of what we think we are SEEing is actually 90% memory is fascinating.

Not the same at all. Locke had never seen Yemi.
And in his 'dream', Locke himself was Eko.

My point was that Locke saw Yemi, like Sawyer saw the horse, and Sayid saw Walt. So the phenomena, whatever it is, isn't limited to the perception of the person with the strong memory or emotion.Oh, I was just commenting on the weirdness of dreams and I think that Locke seeing himself as Eko in the dream reminded me about how in my dreams, I've seen my boss as the mailman - so to speak. I definitely see what you're saying and I agree that what happened to Locke or what he experienced was very strange. How could he dream about someone that he had never seen before - meaning how could he see someone in his dream correctly that he'd never seen in real life? Seemingly, his brain was cutting and pasting from Eko's brain, probably with the assistance of Smokey...

Exactly. That was part of my thinking behind the idea that they have someone else's memories. I think it is very easy for the mind to "paste" one image over someone else's, subconsciously.

That said, the FF with Jack in the real world being recognised as Jack would seem to knock that idea on the head. Unless they got into the idea that what we were seeing was how Jack was envisaging things, and so what everyone else was really seeing wasn't actually Jack, but Juniebun's postman, for example. :biggrin: Seriously, though, there is that possibility of everyone else seeing someone else, but I think that would alienate the audience.
But yeah, that thing of what we think we are SEEing is actually 90% memory is fascinating.I reused your "cutting and pasting" idea in my post above this one, Lucidity...good analogy...

Juniebun >
How could he dream about someone that he had never seen before - meaning how could he see someone in his dream correctly that he'd never seen in real life? Seemingly, his brain was cutting and pasting from Eko's brain, probably with the assistance of Smokey...


The area you're moving into is what made me start the dnalsI ehT (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66284) thread.

Sawyer was able to see a horse that was manifested from Kate's memory.
Locke was able to dream about someone he's never met.
Everyone hears Smokey make a noise that comes from Locke's calculator.
The Swan system made noises from Des's microwave.
(or possibly the other way around, seeing as Claire's Tom's pic was in there too)
etc.
etc.

So I think it's pretty clear that there's an awful lot of memory access going on.
And that made me wonder which way round it's happening with things like the Numbers - is it just a coincidence that those numbers happened to be used in the Swan, or was it another example of Memory Access?
Or the song lyrics that appear on Rousseau's maps - coincidence or taken from Shannon's memory?
The "Catch a Falling Star" hanger in Claire's nursery room, same question.

HILDY’S ULTIMATE THEORY

Hey guys - sorry I’ve been a bit AWOL recently. I’ve had alot of crazy theories buzzing round my head this week and I now firmly believe that I’ve somehow managed to crack Lost. And once I had this “ultimate” explanation clear in my mind, everything else suddenly slotted into place. And I mean everything.

However, I’m afraid I’m not going to tell you what my ultimate theory is because I don’t want a spoilergate on my conscience. Sorry. I’ll admit my decision was a real dilemma after all our joint efforts in the past, but I finally realised that if I did “let the cat out of the bag”, it would make me feel like the person who revealed that Santa doesn’t exist on the night before Christmas. And apart from ruining the surprise for loads of other Lost fans out there, it would be an insult to all the hard work that everyone involved in Lost has put into the show so far. I hope you’ll understand why later, even if you feel disgruntled with me now.

All I will say is that if my ultimate theory is correct (and I firmly believe that it is absolutely spot on), then we’ve definately been on the right track with this thread, even if we hadn’t been able to put our finger on certain key things which happened in the past. And something major will most probably be revealed very early in season 4 when that boat of “rescuers” turns up, because there’s a heck of alot of backstory to squeeze in before they even attempt to head towards any kind of satisfactory conclusion. But it’s gonna be good. Very, very good! So keep tackling those flashbacks and visions because they’re the essence of what has happened to who in the past. It’s all just a matter of perspective. And you might want to take another look at the Exposé episode because it really does contain some hidden gems.

Many thanks to everyone who’s posted on this thread along the way, and do feel free to keep it going without me. I’ll continue to drop in from time to time to keep an eye on proceedings but I won’t be posting any more theories myself because I’m satisfied with what I’ve settled on. It definately makes my own Lost Rewind a totally different experience now I’m looking at it from a different angle. And if my “ultimate” theory is correct then I’m absolutely in awe of the Lost creators. Because the explanation for all of this is absolutely stunning and very, very clever. Let’s just say that they’ve been telling us the truth and feeding us the clues all the time. We just couldn’t see it.

Have fun, good luck, and here’s to February 2008!

H x

So you've cracked it and you're not telling because you don't want to spoil us?

It was Fermions, right?

The problem with this is that we'll never ever know if you were right or wrong unless you tell us before the fact, what's to stop you (or me, or anyone else) saying that they're sure they've cracked it and that they'll tell us after the show ends?

Can a theory be a spoiler? I don't think so, not unless it's based on genuine spoiler information.

Well, I guess if "something major is revealed in Season 4" and the ending is "very, very good" we'll know Hildy was right. :biggrin:

So you've cracked it and you're not telling because you don't want to spoil us?

It was Fermions, right?


lol....fermions.....I remember that.

Well, I guess if "something major is revealed in Season 4" and the ending is "very, very good" we'll know Hildy was right. :biggrin:

I truly enjoy a good sense of humor....both of you....Richard, Luc.

OH ALRIGHT THEN - PRESUMED VERSION OF PRE-PILOT EVENTS

Well, obviously my “noble” decision not to spoil what I strongly suspect will be the eventual big reveal went down like the proverbial lead balloon. Do you guys always like to peek at your Christmas presents before you’re meant to?! Just be thankful that Hildy has absolutely NO willpower and has therefore weakened after just one pathetic day!

I’m not going to post my entire theory and I don’t care if anyone thinks I’m hedging my bets in case it turns out not to be true. Because to my mind it explains just about everything that I’ve seen and heard on the show so far. So whilst I willingly admit that it’s entirely possible I’ve got it all wrong, I really don’t think I have. Either way, I’m not willing to risk the chance of upsetting any loyal fans who prefer not to hear potential spoilers, or the Lost creators themselves. And besides, it’s way too long and involved to put the whole darn thing in “spoiler tags”!

However, my discovery only really means something if I share it with those who helped me along the way. So here as a thank-you is my version of what “could’ve” happened immediately preceding the pilot episode opening scenes. This aspect of my theory was prompted by Lostmio’s fantastic “2 plane theory” so I really couldn’t have done this without him. Also, Lucidity’s brilliant “Sewing Kit theory” helped me spot Jack’s potential “assassin trigger” so many thanks there too, Luc. And DrSuds will probably be pleased to see that his unpopular “it’s all fake!” suspicions probably weren’t as crazy as they sounded! Please note that what follows is only a basic outline. When I tried to explain it any further with all the relevant clues, it went on for pages and I didn’t want to put you all to sleep - even now, it does go on a bit! Anyway, please bear in mind that what follows “possibly” happened late 2007 following the “flashforward” scenes which showed “breakdown-Jack” desperate to get back to the island. I hope this leads you all in the right direction. And I promise I’ll post more clues once you’ve absorbed this little lot so that perhaps we’ll all be able to reach the same ultimate conclusion together. Read, enjoy ...

There are two groups of people making up the so-called “survivors” in the beach scenes in the pilot episode. One (lostmio’s group two) was drugged and planted in a fake post-crash setting by TPTB as a perverted kind of “Dharma Food Drop” for the Others. They were never on the plane when it exploded overhead and most have been on the island for quite some time even if they’re no longer consciously aware of it. The other (lostmio’s group one) is made up of members from Jack’s Army, a group of people all connected in some way to him and what had happened on the island previously. They all worked together to plan their Misison Impossible (!), even “blocking” their in-flight scenes beforehand so that later recollections of how each had interacted with the other during the imaginary flight over would seem vividly realistic in their minds later. “Jack” hypnotised them to provide them with their in-flight recollections and convincing new personas as the ultimate alibi, probably using subliminal film footage pieced together from the countless films and other cultural references which had inspired them. Their names are fake for them but contain hidden and highly relevant clues as to the reasons for their involvement, just like their backstories and new memories are a well-disguised version of all their real pasts.

All Jack’s “foot soldiers” flew in from Los Angeles since the island is actually situated in Hawaii! They were smuggled onto the island in the Beechcraft using directions from the Oceanic plane, and the “?” below to guide them towards a makeshift runway which Hurley would later turn into a golf course. They also used the plane to “crop spray” the survivors below with gas so that they could later take up their own fake places amongst them without any fear of being noticed. After planting certain key props in the vicinity, they headed to the crash site where they cleaned up any copious amounts of prop blood on the surrounding victims before burning the evidence (ie. real blood is most probably Jack’s pre-programmed subconscious “assasin trigger”). They then drugged themselves with tainted “alcohol miniatures” to ensure that everyone woke up together later as “genuine” crash survivors (ie. most probably their pre-programmed subconscious “new persona” trigger).The Beechcraft was moved into the jungle later that night, before being thrown over a cliff to avoid detection and landing in a tree - probably by “good” Other Ethan who somehow never made it to the beach until Day 6, and really is part of the “Peace Corps” along with Goodwin.

The Oceanic plane did explode overhead but was empty apart from a few “prop” (but real) corpses to make the later cockpit crash site convincing; Jack and Kate who were posing as the co-pilot and his stewardess girlfriend (ie. the only time we will ever see Jack and Kate as “a couple” because they’re actually brother and sister!); the real pilot (possibly an innocent pawn but definately killed by “assassin-Jack” later to prevent his warning TPTB that there were more mid-section “survivors” than there should’ve been); and very possibly the “tailies”, actually a group of TPTB assassins sent in to prevent any intervention by anticipated “alien” forces, but containing one very important “mole”. Note that “Jack” and “Kate” are therefore the only “real” survivors of this specific plane crash out of all the other central losties still alive by TTLG.

During the flight, Trolley-Dolly Kate handed out drugged refreshments along with Cindy (very probably the source of Jack’s “insider” information concerning the impending crash, and the person who got Jack and Kate on the doomed flight in the first place). The tailies got suspicious, a struggle ensued, the siblings were handcuffed together, and the apparently “riskier” Jack was drugged to prevent any further trouble. However, Kate and Cindy somehow managed to overcome the captors and hi-jacked the plane (“Hey, Jack!”,“Hey, Kate!”). Kate barely managed to radio the rest of their team already on the island with the exact location of the “post crash” setting on the beach, before the plane exploded in mid-air. It broke apart over the ocean as planned, alerting the Others to their “new arrivals” elsewhere on the island.. Most of the plane ended up at the bottom of the ocean and will most probably never be found but, as planned, the cockpit was jettisoned into the jungle. When it came to a stop, Kate pulled one of their prisoners into the co-pilot’s seat before hiding the radio transceiver, dragging Jack out, and shutting the door behind them in order to lock the still-comatose pilot inside. Everyone else outside in the First Class cabin was either still drugged or was already dead before take-off. (The tailies later made their way to the pre-staged tail-section site before heading into the water in order to assume their “water prompted” new identities. Cindy probably followed and waited until all were safely in the water before joining them). “Gary Troup and his girlfriend” then escaped into the jungle, a still woozy Jack wounding his back in the process but dragged to eventual safety by Kate. Both were most probably pre-progammed to assume their new identies the minute they left the fuselage, so are now consciously unaware of what they’re doing on the island.

Jack and Kate headed to a pre-arranged site in the jungle, where they found faithful Vincent waiting for them. Kate ripped off her intentionally oversized “stewardess uniform” to reveal her next costume hidden underneath, took a tainted alcohol miniature from Jack to drug herself with later, and using her new shirt to protect her from the surrounding gas fumes headed off to her own scheduled “entrance cue”. Vincent had been trained to bury any evidence of Kate’s previous costume when thrown a shoe to fetch, but by now an already-doped Jack was struggling to remain alert. His first attempt at playing “fetch” failed dismally when the shoe landed in a nearby tree, but the second one succeeded just as Jack slumped to the ground. He remained passed out stone-cold and remained asleep under the watchful eye of the returning Vincent until he woke up later wondering “where the hell am I?”!

Instead of drugging herself as planned, Kate took advantage of the brief time alone to head straight for the beach so that she could kill her abusive husband - who we now know as Edward Mars! A struggle ensued and she barely managed to stab him with a piece of wreckage before running into the jungle before the first “survivors” started to wake up. Cue black screen and revolving title ...

Crazy but I hope you’ll admit that it’s possible! All of this was deduced from analysing just about every episode of the show (admittedly mostly via lostpedia and losthatch sites - I’m not made of time!), taking another look at “on location” reports, tons of additional research on wikipedia to confirm assumed cultural references, plus my own personal prior knowledge of films etc. Everything ties together once you know what you’re looking for, especially since scenes or lines from one season often don’t make sense until compared to another episode from much later or earlier. Which makes me suspect that Lost’s overall storyline and character development had to have been pre-planned right from the get-go. And many clues are very convoluted so it might take “Six Degrees of Separation” to link one seemingly unconnected thing to another via assorted books, movies and cultural icons. It really is like a very cryptic crossword - which is why I said it was very clever!

One final thing which will prove my theory is on the right track. I think Jack woke up on the island in the pilot episode on November 5th 2004 (Guy Fawkes or Bonfire Night here in the UK; the backdrop to ‘V for Vendetta’; and definately seems to explain why there were unlikely “smuggled fireworks from Oz” on a plane which always destined to be a glorified “rocket” flare “from Oz”). Which means that if the new season picks up IMMEDIATELY after the final scenes by the radio tower in S3 (supposedly Day 93), first transmission date for any new S4 episodes should be on Tuesday 5th February 2005. So I’ll guess we’ll all know one way or another if my theory was on the right track come February, won’t we?!

Thoughts please. And, erm, I hope we're all still friends!

H x

Christian Shepherd was wearing white tennis shoes. In an interview I'd read he'd remarked that he was told it was important.

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37782

Scene: Jack's HAVIDs of his father, Christian, on the island.
What picqued my interest in this scene was the way HAVID dad is dressed. He's in a blue suit with white sneakers. It sort of reminded me of the guy who's similarly dressed in Desmond's "time travelling" trip in Flashes Before Your Eyes.That guy was wearing a suit with red sneakers and enevitably met his fate with a falling girder.
http://www.hanttula.com/projects/lost/category/other-notes/

In the first episode, Jack passes a white shoe hanging from a tree (yes, I know this one’s a bit of a stretch)… with a black lining.


So, I'm inclined to think that Christian retrieved the shoe from the tree and started wearing them because it was a lot more comfortable than the dress shoes he'd been buried in.


Ah.. here's someone that had put it together before:
http://blogs.chron.com/tubular/archives/2007/03/the_big_sleep.html

Lost note: the shoe in the tree. This is a repeated image, harkening back to the "Pilot" episode, wherein Jack finds a white tennis shoe (http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/recurring_themes/recurring_objects/shoes/shoes_pilot1.htm) (not unlike the one he later sees his father wearing on the island (http://photogallery.longlostlist.net/albums/userpics/10002/white-rabbit229.jpg)) hanging in a tree.



How did the shoes get there? Sure... I suppose that Jack could have thrown one there, but you're suggesting that Vincent buied the other? If that's the case, then Christian can't have worn it. (no, I don't think he's dead despite the insistance of the producers, and if dug up one would be very dirty rather than blazing-white. The alternative is that Christian is a ghostly manifestation, but then why the fixation on the shoes?)

Christian Shepherd was wearing white tennis shoes. In an interview I'd read he'd remarked that he was told it was important.

- material removed by wesb for brevity --

How did the shoes get there? Sure... I suppose that Jack could have thrown one there, but you're suggesting that Vincent buied the other? If that's the case, then Christian can't have worn it. (no, I don't think he's dead despite the insistance of the producers, and if dug up one would be very dirty rather than blazing-white. The alternative is that Christian is a ghostly manifestation, but then why the fixation on the shoes?)

I keep going back to my theory that the things that people think about with emotion are the things that appear on the island. The sneaker hanging from the tree was a piece of debris from the wreckage of flight 815. For the sneaker, and all the deaths it symbolizes to Jack, it's made a deep emotional impression. He also has deep feelings involving his father. So when "the box" on the island created a manifestation to grab Jack's attention, it created his father wearing the sneakers, for a double dose of attention-grabbing. The original sneakers are still where Jack left them. The ones on the apparition of Christian are the ones that "the box" created.

I can see why the actors' wearing of the sneakers would be considered very important, as it's a clue suggesting how people's thoughts are affecting the strange things that appear.

I agree with wesb here. Also, I think that "the box" that Ben refers to is really the Losties' brains. IMHO, I think that's were these things and people are coming from onto the Island. Are they versions of these things and people that are as real as the original? I don't know, but I do know that Kate patted and touched the horse. Could Jack have touched the version of Christian that he saw on the Island? Now that's an interesting question, IMHO. Ben probably feels or felt that he doesn't want to give the Losties any ammunition, so he's using the box metaphor. This idea links back, once again, to Ben wanting Jack to want to do the operation...to really want to do the operation...he was trying to get Jack to "use the box" to get what he wanted, although it's really what Ben wanted. By putting Sawyer and Kate in jeopardy, it made Jack want to do the operation - not because he likes Ben and wanted to help him, but because he wanted to help Sawyer and Kate...

Hildy,
I like the idea - funnily enough, I watched a film just last night called "Unknown", and straight away I thought it could play nicely into the opening scenes of Lost. Basically 5 guys wake up in a warehouse with no way out and no memory of how they got there. However, they soon work out that two of them are the "bad guys" and were trying to kill the other three. But with no idea who among them is which. It's really cool. And it made me think how cool the model would be applied to Lost. Which is very similar to your set-up.

What I don't get is why you think this idea of yours is any different to any other Theory on the board. Why are you so sure it's the right answer, to the point that you weren't going to post it for fear of Spoiling us? Or was that just "marketing"? ;)

That movie reminds me of the Bourne movies...

Yikes! Is it February, yet?

Yeah, similar memory-loss idea, but loads more tension.
Just imagine you have no memory, and you might be a killer or you might be the killer's next victim, but either way you're trapped there with the other 4. And then they start to remember snippets of their pasts, and have to deduce what each little thing might mean - "I remember I had a wife and daughter." "Well I remember my son used to play with my best friend's daughter . . ."
And their memories become like a ticking bomb - any moment now one of them will remember he's there to kill three of them.
Then there are cool twists at the end too.
Really cool film.

I agree with wesb here. Also, I think that "the box" that Ben refers to is really the Losties' brains. IMHO, I think that's were these things and people are coming from onto the Island. Are they versions of these things and people that are as real as the original? I don't know, but I do know that Kate patted and touched the horse. Could Jack have touched the version of Christian that he saw on the Island?

I suspect that the created things are just as real as the originals. The drug plane, which couldn't possibly fly all the way to the island, and even if it could, would have been way too much of a coincidence even for this show, was probably a created item. The fact that they burnt it up and when they visited it later and it was not burnt showed that it could not only be created but re-created. It included a working radio and the contents of the virgin Mary statues was real. I think the same is true of the gun case, which couldn't have been found underneath the seats where they located it, because it was specifically not brought into the passenger section.

So the created people and things are not just images, but real, solid, and even authentically working things.

Here's a new related question: if we presume that things can appear on the island, can things that were brought there also disappear? One thing very briefly mentioned and never followed-up-on in S1 was the fact that no suitcase that the Losties could find had a single comb or brush in it. I'd originally considered that a clue that all the luggage had been searched at the airport and specific items removed, possibly in preparation for intentionally bringing flight 815 to the island. But a "vanishing-box" explanation might also explain this...

wesb,
The questions you are asking were the inspiration for a thread I started some time back. You might like to check it out. It's called : dnalsI ehT (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66284).

Here's a new related question: if we presume that things can appear on the island, can things that were brought there also disappear? One thing very briefly mentioned and never followed-up-on in S1 was the fact that no suitcase that the Losties could find had a single comb or brush in it. I'd originally considered that a clue that all the luggage had been searched at the airport and specific items removed, possibly in preparation for intentionally bringing flight 815 to the island. But a "vanishing-box" explanation might also explain this...

That's a good question. I guess I'd need to be shown an example of some other thing being "disappeared" by the island before I'd draw that type of conclusion from the missing hairbrushes alone. It also strikes me as somewhat unwieldy as a narrative device if the island can make things vanish -- too much like "magic" and not very elegant. Whatever the "box" can do, I hope that it has pretty strict rules and can only do things like manifest objects and people under certain conditions, otherwise it will seem like a cheat.

However, I do think the missing hairbrushes may prove important. I think some of the subtle, open-ended statements from early episodes are going to continue to reverberate. For instance, Hurley's statement to Sayid about time, when they were listening to the radio on the beach, certainly seems to have paid off in a big way with Desmond's time travel (and whatever else that may portend). I think the hairbrush line falls into the same category, as does Walt's question "Is that Vincent?" when Smokey first appears. One possibility with respect to the hairbrushes is that for some reason the Losties don't need them on the Island -- although we've seen some changing hairstyles, there's no confirmation as of yet that their hair grows in the normal way (although I imagine scenes of someone giving the Losties haircuts would be pretty boring!). Another possibility that crosses my mind is that if Locke is somehow central to their situation (that is, if he in some fashion "created" the crash and everything else that's happened), the absence of brushes might be an understandable omission from the mind of a bald man. And there have been numerous theories about the brushes being taken to collect DNA samples, etc. (probably the most likely solution).

By the way, since this is a thread about Jack, did you guys see the article in Chicago magazine about the writer who did the first script for the Pilot episode? Here's a link to the article (http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2007/Cast-Away/index.php?cp=1&si=0#artanc). One interesting thing:


As originally written, the plot was supposed to be primarily about two half-brothers who end up on the island together and end up fighting for leadership.

Lieber imagined something like Lord of the Flies-a "realistic show about a society putting itself back together after a catastrophe." In roughly a week's time, he concocted a general story line centered on what happens to a few dozen plane-crash survivors when they are stuck on a far-off Pacific island. The show, as Lieber saw it, would focus heavily on eight to ten main characters-in particular, two half brothers, avowed rivals, competing for leadership of their fellow castaways, who include a doctor, a con man, a fugitive, a pregnant woman, a drug-addicted man, a military officer, and a spoiled rich girl. (Sound familiar, Lost fans?)

I've always thought it quite possible that Jack and John were related (and possibly James). We've already got Claire as Jack's half-sister, so would it be that strange to find out that the original plot point evolved into something a bit more elaborate but still involves that "sibling rivalry" first proposed in the original Pilot?

Tramp >
I guess I'd need to be shown an example of some other thing being "disappeared" by the island before I'd draw that type of conclusion from the missing hairbrushes alone.


Well, it's never been mentioned by a character, but I find it strange that there hasn't been more use / mention of electronic equipment. Sawyer had the battery of a laptop and we saw Boone with a Mobile Phone, but that's it. No cameras (so there'll be no evidence ?), no major technology for Sayid to play with, no GPS - these days the law of averages probably means that one person on a flight has something with GPS.


Although we've seen some changing hairstyles, there's no confirmation as of yet that their hair grows in the normal way (although I imagine scenes of someone giving the Losties haircuts would be pretty boring!).


Not that I believe my own theory here, but I've always said it's interesting that Sawyer was off the Island for a period of time and he's the only one that has needed a haircut - Kate told him so. But then Jin, Michael and especially Des were off the Island too and no particular mention there. Oh, and Jack, Des and Locke we've seen shaving meaning there's no growth issue with facial hair.

By the way, since this is a thread about Jack, did you guys see the article in Chicago magazine about the writer who did the first script for the Pilot episode? Here's a link to the article (http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2007/Cast-Away/index.php?cp=1&si=0#artanc). One interesting thing:


As originally written, the plot was supposed to be primarily about two half-brothers who end up on the island together and end up fighting for leadership.

I've always thought it quite possible that Jack and John were related (and possibly James). We've already got Claire as Jack's half-sister, so would it be that strange to find out that the original plot point evolved into something a bit more elaborate but still involves that "sibling rivalry" first proposed in the original Pilot?
Tramp: In regards to your spoilerfonted information...there are so many interesting ways to go with this line of thinking, IMHO. Initially, it seems like Locke is too close in age to be Jack's brother because he's probably only about ten years younger than Christian. I'd say that Jack is 40, Locke is 50 and Christian is about 62. What about Christian and Locke being related? Or, as you insinuated, Jack and Sawyer being brothers that were separated at birth? No, they don't look alike, but who knows? One idea that I've seen floating around in cyberspace (in places other than this thread) is that Jack and Kate are half-siblings...somehow...which could possibly explain why Kate seemed totally weirded out when she kissed Jack and, well, they do look somewhat alike...

And wesb...your comments connect me back, once again, to one of my favorite mysteries in LOST - who were those lookalikes on Tom's boat that helped kidnap Walt in Season One? Was one of them wished into being by the original or someone else? Also, is it that anyone of the Island can channel this emotional wishing or just "special people"? If just special people, can they only successfully emotionally wish on the Island or...do the really powerful ones, like Walt, let's say, do it off of the Island - and that's why Ben had to get rid of him?

Hildy's about halfway to the truth.

Well now Suds has confirmed it, we know Hildy is right. :rolleyes:

The question is, is there any point posting thoughts and theories now if Hildy is sure she's nailed Lost and Suds has confirmed that she's at least half-right? I suppose we could limit ourselves to speculating on which half of Hildy's theory is right.

By the way, I wanted you all to be the first to know that I'm now 100% sure I'm going to marry Maggie Grace. Oh, and everyone on the 'Lage is invited to the wedding. Now, if Suds could just half-confirm that one for me, that would be great. :biggrin:

I suspect that the created things are just as real as the originals. The drug plane, which couldn't possibly fly all the way to the island, and even if it could, would have been way too much of a coincidence even for this show, was probably a created item. The fact that they burnt it up and when they visited it later and it was not burnt showed that it could not only be created but re-created. It included a working radio and the contents of the virgin Mary statues was real. I think the same is true of the gun case, which couldn't have been found underneath the seats where they located it, because it was specifically not brought into the passenger section.


Not to mention the fact that the others saw the plane as well and apparently thought nothing of it. that plane is there and it's real to everyone on the island

wesb,
The questions you are asking were the inspiration for a thread I started some time back. You might like to check it out. It's called : dnalsI ehT (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66284).

Thanks for the pointer. That _is_ an interesting thread. I'd suspect that the mere existence of "the box" on the island would be enough for some people to fight and even kill to control it. If we consider the amount of wealth and power that could be amassed by someone who could harness that ability to create whatever they wanted, I'd be surprised if a major research activity on the island wasn't in trying to tap into that power. In fact, a very plausible alternative explanation to the Orchid film is that they were trying to do just that, and managed some success in producing a duplicate of Bunny #15, but that the experiment produced unexpected and maybe even catastrophic side-effects...

I've often wondered if the Walt we saw leaving the island with Michael is the real Walt. Was that Walt-2 we saw? (I know this has been posted before, but I've been thinking about this more lately, especially since the Casimir film and rabbit 15-2.) There was just something really weird about Walt in that scene at the dock. I actually suspected, at the time, that Ben (or something/someone else on the island) wanted this Walt(2?) to get off the island for some reason. When we saw the obit it made me wonder even more....perhaps it wasn't a suicide, but a murder instead?

That's a good question. I guess I'd need to be shown an example of some other thing being "disappeared" by the island before I'd draw that type of conclusion from the missing hairbrushes alone. It also strikes me as somewhat unwieldy as a narrative device if the island can make things vanish -- too much like "magic" and not very elegant. Whatever the "box" can do, I hope that it has pretty strict rules and can only do things like manifest objects and people under certain conditions, otherwise it will seem like a cheat.


I agree completely. There's nowhere near enough evidence to draw any conclusions, but there is enough to consider the question and to try out possible explanations in the light of how well they unify other mysteries. Something that produces useful unifying theories is worth keeping in the back of our minds, for later.

I also agree that unrestrained wish-granting could turn out to be a deus ex machina (almost literally!), and that's almost always bad for a story. But I think that a severe restriction on items created is what we're already seeing, as only a few people seem able to tap into it, and even then what they get can be unexpected. If the polar bear is an example, then what they get may not always even be very convenient. If the Orchid film is an example of the consequences of trying to control it, it may also prove to be downright dangerous to try to develop or refine it any further...
100%
Well, it's never been mentioned by a character, but I find it strange that there hasn't been more use / mention of electronic equipment. Sawyer had the battery of a laptop and we saw Boone with a Mobile Phone, but that's it. No cameras (so there'll be no evidence ?), no major technology for Sayid to play with, no GPS - these days the law of averages probably means that one person on a flight has something with GPS.


I'm strainin' my brain here, but I think i remember Hurley walking around wearing headphones sometime back in S1 and thinking that it was a ridiculous waste of a battery which wasn't going to have much chance of being recharged anytime soon.

Once they had the hatch they had electricity and could presumably have charged things, but now they're once again without that abiity. I'm not sure that GPS receivers were all that common in 2004, so it's possible that they haven't located one, but an iPod is another matter.

Then again, all of the "convenient" electronics could have vanished along with the hairbrushes;)...

I've often wondered if the Walt we saw leaving the island with Michael is the real Walt. Was that Walt-2 we saw? (I know this has been posted before, but I've been thinking about this more lately, especially since the Casimir film and rabbit 15-2.) There was just something really weird about Walt in that scene at the dock. I actually suspected, at the time, that Ben (or something/someone else on the island) wanted this Walt(2?) to get off the island for some reason.
Which Walt counts as "real"? I might count both Walts as unreal in terms of their sincerity -- which is the norm for characters in Lost anyway. (This is a whole flock of sheep who are wolves!) And if the "real" Walt is the one we saw as the baby with the Teddy bear, then I don't see any reason for either of these Walts to be him.

I know nothing of this Casimir and rabbit 15-2 and don't care to find out, but the lines about the Others getting more than they bargained for with Walt, and about Walt's appearing in places he wasn't supposed to be, along with the twins theme of Lost, are enough for me to figure out that he has a double.

Robert

wesb >
I'm strainin' my brain here, but I think i remember Hurley walking around wearing headphones sometime back in S1 and thinking that it was a ridiculous waste of a battery which wasn't going to have much chance of being recharged anytime soon.


Yeah, the early songs we heard were made to look like they were being heard through his Discman. And then the batteries ran out during Damien Rice's Delicate, if i remember right. And yeah, I remember thinking that too - what a waste of batteries !
(listening to music in general, not the genius of Damien Rice, obviously)

Well now Suds has confirmed it, we know Hildy is right. :rolleyes:

The question is, is there any point posting thoughts and theories now if Hildy is sure she's nailed Lost and Suds has confirmed that she's at least half-right? I suppose we could limit ourselves to speculating on which half of Hildy's theory is right.

By the way, I wanted you all to be the first to know that I'm now 100% sure I'm going to marry Maggie Grace. Oh, and everyone on the 'Lage is invited to the wedding. Now, if Suds could just half-confirm that one for me, that would be great. :biggrin:

Luc:
Don't be such a cheeky monkey! :rolleyes: You obviously think there’s something of note happening in this specific thread since you’re still deigning to take the time to post on here. So stick to your own threads if you want to start an argument with someone because I'm not taking the bait!

I think I just freaked out that my overall theory did seem to explain a heck of alot of Lost, and I didn’t know what to do with that knowledge - call it Hildy’s very own Pandora’s Box dilemma. Please can you appreciate that I wasn’t trying to jerk everyone around (although you all deserved to be after the shocking lack of response to my previous flashback analysis suggestion!). This does all tie it together, and now I’ve calmed down a bit I WILL lead you all in the right direction, but in my own time so PLEASE bear with me.

Wesb:
Cool analysis, as always. Definately have been thinking along similar lines that weird things seen on the island relate to the emotions of the person witnessing them

Koralis:
Good point about Christian’s white shoes. I think shoes are meant to signify “stepping into someone else’s boots” as in assuming a new identity or position in life. Kate has to take red boots off a corpse before trekking into the jungle in search of transceiver. Very similar to Wizard of Oz’s Dorothy putting on red slippers and becoming “girl on a mission”. I’ve suggested Kate was previously a timid abused wife (poss. why unkeen to go back to island in flashforward if husband still there?), and the new sturdy boots replace flimsy/vulnerable sandals. So perhaps both signify she’s become newly feisty and adventurous. Similarly, Juliet’s shoes look highly impractical when she stumbles on desk after “first” arriving by submarine - maybe signifies that she’d made an un-sensible or rocky career choice by agreeing to take a position there. (nb. I think she’s the person described as “Karen DeGroot” actually). So same idea with the white shoes in Christian vision. They’re usually worn in an operating theatre and would soon get soiled traisping around a muddy jungle. So perhaps the shoes AND person wearing them signify that “Jack Shephard” is out of place here and could sully (!) his own moral integrity if he continues his murderous mission on the island.

Definately think Christian vision was pre-programmed visual prompt intended to lead Jack to the caves and all it contained. Think it’s highly relevant that main vision led to Jack almost falling off a cliff and came shortly after he’d failed to rescue Joanna (ie. strong sense of deja vu of similar water-related failure to save someone which had made him feel like “throwing himself off a cliff”). So prompt almost failed but thankfully ultimately suceeded. Now think coffin always was empty - a metaphor for “empty” Oceanic plane full of rotting corpses. Note that makers say nose-section set stank because of surrounding rotting vegetation; could’ve been indirect way of telling us that it actually stank in the story too but for creepier reasons.

It’s debatable whether Christian as a living, breathing person actually exists or whether he just represents the idea of someone (my guess, he’s “future Jack” and what could happen to him if he doesn’t sort out mess on island - similar idea with Scrooge’s Jacob Marley in Christmas Carol - and yes, I think the Jacob name is relevant!). Out of any of the visions of Christian, I think only the first one stands a slight chance of being an actual person on the island if only because it’s not even played by the wonderful John Terry. But even this version of Christian is kinda vague and blurry (or is that just my eyesight?!), so it’s not like we even get a definate view of him. So it’s possible that even this version is meant to represent more of a “vague idea” rather than an actual person; or Jack’s need to focus on what he’s there to do.

Next time (if anyone's interested!): Some slight revisions to Hildy's obnoxiously know-it-all ultimate theory regarding how everyone got to the island.

Hildy,
I was being cheeky in that last post, but only having a laugh - no argument-seeking, I promise. :p

The only thing I've questioned is Why you think your theory is more than just a theory, and is proven. That doesn't mean I think you don't have proof. But I think it's fair to ask to see it. Personally, I'll be very happy if you're right, because unless your take on things has done a U-Turn we're pretty much on the same page.

I suppose we could limit ourselves to speculating on which half of Hildy's theory is right.

that there's a lot of fakery
that one group is crashing (heh) another's party
"blocking scenes" (not the ones she thinks, though)
"programmed persons" (not who she thinks, though)
empty plane demolished in mid-air for show
prior relationship between Kate & Marshal (but not primarily romantic)
Marshal murdered by Kate
oversized costumes (though not worn by whom she thinks)
fake names
disguised pasts (though not how she thinks)Robert

My "cheeky" post earlier was as much in response to your post, Suds, as it was to Hildy's earlier one. The thing that made me laugh was that you simply posted "Hildy's about halfway to the truth", as if you KNEW the solution and were in a position to tell us categorically whether or not Hildy is right.

But as I told Hildy yesterday, I take this whole idea that you and Hildy KNOW you are right in a light-hearted way, and posted what I thought was a little joke.

And Hildy,
Now it's going to look like I AM trying to start an argument, but I promise I'm not. I just want to clear something up. I was re-reading your post after I had responded, and I think this line is rather unfair.


Hildy >
So stick to your own threads if you want to start an argument with someone because I'm not taking the bait!


I know that everyone got sick of the constant argument on the Sewing Kit, but I want everyone to know that if I started to get rude with rthensley and co. it's because I had been sick of it for a lot longer. And, as I have discussed with a few people in PMs, the problem was that if I ignored their posts, as I had done once before, the thing snowballed and everyone started to think that they must be right.

And also, I think it's interesting to note that the people who were "attacking" me there only ever seem to come on the board to do just that. And since everyone has stopped posting on the Sewing Kit (i.e. they got what they wanted) they haven't posted anywhere again.

Whereas me, you can click on my username and look at all my posts all over the board and see that the only time I've lost my patience that way was with them. I might seem like an "aggressive" poster, because of everything on the Sewing Kit, but I think if you put those posts into the context of ALL my responses on ALL the threads I post on, and my PM responses, then, even if I say so myself, I'm actually a very friendly poster.

Okay, rant over. And again, Hildy, I'm not trying to argue with you. I just wanted to "plead my innocence", shall we say.

Luc:
My last post - aren’t you lucky! (JOKE!) I obviously did take your earlier comments the wrong way so I apologise for accusing you of trying to start an argument when there wasn’t one intended. However, I did resent the implication that this has all been a marketing ploy because I’m not a manipulative person - foolish maybe, since it’s now clear to me that I probably just should’ve just kept my mouth shut and stopped posting without explanation in the first place. For this reason, I’ve decided not to continue posting on this forum any more. I appreciate that I’ve annoyed alot of you and I apologise because that honestly wasn’t my intention. But I’m sImply not willing to risk the chance of my theory being right and ruining the surprise for lots of other people. So it seems rather pointless to remain on here if I’ve nothing else to say - because we all know how I like to whitter on!
.
However, I hope there’s no hard feelings and many thanks for steering me in the right direction on many previous occasions. Especially because I’m sure your Sewing Thread theory is right about the importance of the colour red! (Take another look at the S2 opening scenes and see if you spot something “off”). And I’m still convinced Jack’s got a Bagua tattoo (groan!) although it would be just my luck for that to turn out to be the one thing I was mistaken about! However, I think we were spot on about it only being decipherable in a mirror.

DrSuds:
I think we ARE both looking at this in the same way, especially since it sounds like we’re both thinking along the same lines with regard to Hurley. And I DO know what you mean by “disguised pasts”! So why don’t you share your own complete theories with everyone?!?!?!

Everyone:
Please read the following revisions to my previous pre-pilot theory. Jack, Kate and CIndy were in the Oceanic plane together with dead prop corpses, plus the pilot who should’ve ejected before the plane exploded but he was unconscious - he was later snared and pulled away from the cockpit using a trebuchet-like crane, before being killed by Jack in the jungle. Charlie and Pikki arrived in the Beechcraft with necessary props. Charlie encountered certain other “underground” losties en-route to the beach, hence why he appears in their in-flight memories. Pikki probably moved the Beechcraft on the night of Day 1, and they’re very important even though they’re dead now. The tail-section assassins arrived in Henry Gale’s balloon - Cindy blended into their crowd later when everyone was in the sea together. Everyone else was already on the island. Jack’s new persona prompt was two-fold - the blood on man under landing wheel destroyed temporary “Troup” identity; successfully reviving Rose gave birth to “Dr Death” persona. Jack’s back wound was fake and most likely Kate’s new persona prompt. Dharma Initiative may have started peacefully but I think it’s mutated into “unwitting assassins” holding pen, with probable military-and-political establishment links. The Others are still being manipulated by TPTB, and even though Ben is just a pawn, he was Jack’s initial target as their current leader.

I still think Jack and Desmond were in the Swan together, but later memories of Kelvin relate specifically to Mikhail. I think Mikhail contrived the magnetic anomally in order to drag the cockpit into the jungle, but it didn’t necessarily reach its ultimate target - which could be a metaphor for other ironically missed goals. I’m convinced any so-called prop or continuity errors and time discrepancies are absolutely intentional. I think Walt’s real name could be Donald: each name ties in with different cartoons, it relates to subliminal imagery, and Michael most likely not his real father. I think Rose’s real name could be Hattie. Sawyer most likely not a journalist as previously propsed but the clues to his real profession are there to find. And many other key characters are not necessarily what they appear(ed) to be.

Examples of revolution, prejudice and oppression throughout history are highly relevant since this is all about righting past wrongs, and season openings are very important - but I’m sure you knew that already. I think at least three very key things still need to be revealed. And I’m still convinced that the pilot episode opened in November 2007! (*). Please feel free to use these guidelines to steer you to your own eventual conclusions. I especially recommend you check the making-of featurettes again, and that you try word-association to work out what everyone’s real name and connection is. Relevant cultural references are usually a good place to start. And thanks again for all your help in the past.

H x :kiss:

(*)
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1648278&postcount=2
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1652055&postcount=1

Hildy,
I can't see how anything you've said could have annoyed anyone. People can believe or not that you have hit upon something conclusive. But that's all. I think maybe you think you've said something wrong and that's why you were sensitive about my posts. To be totally honest, I simply didn't take the idea that you have proof very seriously, and that's why I was joking about it. Not laughing AT the idea, or anything like it, just taking it all light-heartedly. Now, not thinking you have proof doesn't mean I don't see a lot of validity in the Theory. And it doesn't mean I think you're doing anything deliberate or calculating, just that MAYBE you've mistaken strong evidence for proof. And I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, just that that's how I've taken it all until now, personally.

For this reason, I’ve decided not to continue posting on this forum any more. I appreciate that I’ve annoyed alot of you and I apologise because that honestly wasn’t my intention. But I’m sImply not willing to risk the chance of my theory being right and ruining the surprise for lots of other people. So it seems rather pointless to remain on here if I’ve nothing else to say - because we all know how I like to whitter on!


Now, Hildy...

I've looked back over the relevant posts and I've gotta say that if anyone's annoyed at you, it's not your doing...

And while your theory _might_ have a lot to offer, it might just be a bit premature to worry that you're going to spoil things for everybody. Consider how none of our S1 theories would have contained anything remotely similar to the Dharma Initiative. None of our S2 theories would have considered the vast influence that the Others have off-island, or the size and scope of their operation. None of our S3 theories would have even considered the flash-forward idea, and that the story somehow has a lot of post-island elements to it.

In the next three seasons, they'll drop more game-changers that will turn everything on its head once again. Now, I have my own theories, and I like them a lot. They explain a huge amount of what we've seen, they unify many of the mysteries, and aren't contradicted by any of them.

But I wouldn't bet a penny that they're right.

Because there's still a huge amount of the picture hidden from us, I don't think that anything we can come up with now will be more than a shadow of what's finally revealed. So theorize away, and set aside any guilt of spoiling. If everyone did that, there'd be no theories posted anywhere. The worst you can do is to put one more theory in the pile, and if it turns out to have merit, people will really only notice it after the fact. So you'll get bragging rights when we get the answers, but you'll have little effect beforehand.

Here's something that happened to me that may or may not apply here, but it's been a great lesson to me. About a week before TPTB revealed in a podcast that the flashback connections between the characters don't have any real significance other than that it's a "cool" thing to put into the story, I'd posted a theory on the EW board that supposedly _explained_ all the flashback connections. It was simple, clean, elegant, beautiful... it not only explained how all the characters could have inadvertently crossed each other's paths pre-island, but it absolutely required it. In fact, it "showed" how most of the people who ended up on the island were only there _because_ they had innocently crossed paths earlier. It was a _great_ theory and I was feeling good about it...

And then C & L's comment just days later caused it to collapse like a house of cards.

In the end, it's no biggie, even though it was a shock and a disappointment at the time. But I've learned that there are many, many possible solutions to a mystery like this one, and since the writers aren't consulting us before they produce their scripts, the eventual outcome may be vastly different from what we're just sure is happening.

Or maybe, just maybe, we've got it figured, dead-on. The uncertainty's what makes it fun. Stay in the game. You're doing just fine...

Elegantly said, as usual, wesb -- I've enjoyed all of your posts over the past month or so. You've clearly brought logic and perspective to the table whenever you comment on things.

And I agree wholeheartedly: Hildy, stick around, and I wouldn't worry so much about people taking offense OR the possibility of spoiling anyone's enjoyment of the show. I don't think you've said anything remotely offensive on this thread, and I like reading your ideas.

What I think you're reacting to is other people's reaction to the certainty you have that your theory is THE theory. You're clearly entitled to your opinion, but I can virtually assure you that no one here is going to accept it as gospel, even if you were 100% correct, for the reasons wesb enumerated. We've seen too many folks come through who were convinced of their own theories before, and we all have our own pet theories, so you're virtually going to have to tie up every loose end and answer every unanswered question before you'd ever convince even of a fraction of the people here that you are "right".

And you probably would not convince many people even then: take, for example, Dr. Suds -- while I agree that it would be nice to see him once and for all articulate all of the details of his uber-theory, from what I can tell the gist is that "it's all a con". I know he has layers upon layers of this theory -- intersecting cons, etc. -- but the thing about a theory like this is that it cannot be PROVEN wrong. Same for the "virtual reality" and "purtgatory" theories (unless you take TPTB's statements as true; what I mean is, they can't be proven wrong within the context of the show, as of yet). But few people on this Board buy into these theories, as you've probably seen.

On the other hand, your theory appears to be packed with details, and I'd think you'd want us to try to poke holes in it, so that you can demonstrate how robust it is. Isn't that the whole point of a board like this?

So let me try one specific question, based on your theory. If I understand what you've written, there were two groups that made up the "survivors" on the beach. One was a group of people who had been on the island already, and were drugged and put in a fake-crash setting. The others are Jack's group, who were hyponitized by Jack to have memories of the flight and also programmed to adopt new personas once they were in place, so that they believed they were part of the group.

So, how did the original group get memories of the imaginary flight? Were they hypnotized as well, and by whom? And how do the memories dovetail so well even in the general description (I know you think that any discrepancies arise from the fact that the hypnosis allowed different elements to be captured into those memories)? If the answer is that the original group was being hypnotized by someone else, and then Jack needed to infiltrate that group and used hynosis for the same purpose, how did he know the details of what the original group was being told?

Perhaps more importantly, what is the POINT of all of this subterfuge and misdirection? Folks have -- quite rightly, I think -- asked Dr. Suds what he believes the point of the massive con in his theory is, and unless I'm mistaken I don't think we've ever gotten a straight answer (someone point me to the post if I'm wrong, and if so I'm sorry for mischaracterizing your thoughts, Doc). To me, the proof of any "theory of everything" has got to be an explanation for why they're all on the island, and what the ultimate denouement will be.

As an aside, I would personally hate an explanation that involves mass hypnosis on the scale you're describing. I can certainly accept a few characters being "programmed" into "deep cover", although even that stretches science pretty far and is an overused concept in action/adventure and sci-fi. But taking multiple people and trying to do this just seems too clumsy and unbelievable, IMHO.

As a further aside, wesb, I feel your pain about the possibility that there's no explanation for all of the seeming coincidences off-island, based on TPTB's comments. For me, the idea that these were all included just for fun is one of the most bewildering and upsetting aspects of the show, because it defies logic for there to be so many connections, and not to have that play a role. I recognize that the writers love the idea of seven degrees of separation (witness that cancelled show), so I guess they may be telling the truth. And given the way this show developed, from a Survivor-style series to what it is today, I'm not surprised that they hadn't thought through the whole back story but that they thought it would be cool to have the characters interconnected in minor ways. But to then develop Hanso, DHARMA, Widmore, Paik, etc. in ways that point to lots of hidden (and important) connections off-island, it all gets confusing. I'm hoping still that the connections will be explained in-show, even if they came up with the rationale post hoc.

As a further aside, wesb, I feel your pain about the possibility that there's no explanation for all of the seeming coincidences off-island, based on TPTB's comments. For me, the idea that these were all included just for fun is one of the most bewildering and upsetting aspects of the show, because it defies logic for there to be so many connections, and not to have that play a role. I recognize that the writers love the idea of seven degrees of separation (witness that cancelled show), so I guess they may be telling the truth. And given the way this show developed, from a Survivor-style series to what it is today, I'm not surprised that they hadn't thought through the whole back story but that they thought it would be cool to have the characters interconnected in minor ways. But to then develop Hanso, DHARMA, Widmore, Paik, etc. in ways that point to lots of hidden (and important) connections off-island, it all gets confusing. I'm hoping still that the connections will be explained in-show, even if they came up with the rationale post hoc.

Thanks for your thoughts (and compliments!) I suppose the major pain I felt was in seeing so carefully crafted a theory crumble almost immediately after I'd publicly disclosed it. But the idea itself that the coincidences wouldn't be explained at all produced more a surprised annoyance, as I feel the writers overlooked something very basic and very important.

Don't get me wrong; these people have to be among the most talented and creative people in the business. But this is a mystery story among other things, and there are certain unwritten rules that just are not broken in a mystery. Now, the occasional coincidence is fine; it even makes a great red herring, which mystery fans will expect. But the whole point of a mystery is to present the audience a puzzle and to challenge them to explain the unexplainable in a plausible way. If the writers put in something that must always remain unexplainable, but don't clearly label it as such from the start, it becomes a huge letdown when the amateur sleuths spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, only to be told much later to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. "Oh that? Heh heh... That was nuthin'... We was just playin'... Thought it'd look cool..."

It's always a trick in SciFi, Fantasy,and Supernatural stories that are also mysteries, to keep the techie/magical elements distinct from the mystery elements, so that they don't end up explaining the unexplainable with a cheat, and so that the special genre elements that just happen to be there can't be misinterpreted as clues. I think they messed up on the second part. When the story's not a mystery, anything goes, and "cool" coincidences might be thrown in for fun, as they've done. The interesting thing is that it's far more than just a mystery; they've combined a half-dozen different kinds of stories and the resulting stew is remarkably tasty. They just included two ingredients that don't interact well when chewed together...

Saying that, I'm more than willing to cut them a huge amount of slack, considering the phenomenal job they've done on the story overall. I don't think that any work of any kind is flawless (mine sure aren't!!!) and I think that to expect perfection in any area of life is to just invite frustration.

None of our S3 theories would have even considered the flash-forward idea, and that the story somehow has a lot of post-island elements to it.
Maybe not yours, but as I wrote in alt.tv.lost at the time, I anticipated that in season 1. Later I wrote that they'd be likely to put in some scenes that'd be difficult to tell whether they were flashback or flashforward.

Perhaps more importantly, what is the POINT of all of this subterfuge and misdirection? Folks have -- quite rightly, I think -- asked Dr. Suds what he believes the point of the massive con in his theory is, and unless I'm mistaken I don't think we've ever gotten a straight answer (someone point me to the post if I'm wrong, and if so I'm sorry for mischaracterizing your thoughts, Doc).
No, that's fair. Closest I can figure so far is that some people are trying to set up Desmond as a seer, for whatever advantage they can play that (such as founding a religion), while others are trying to promote some miracle cure or possibly the real estate as a place of such miracles. My earlier guess of defaming an actual (in their world) Hanso Foundation still isn't contradicted either. But what I do see is that there is more than one purpose, and that different parties have managed to use the same setup to try to achieve their ends, which are not only disparate but may be incompatible. Presumably one con attracted another.

It's as if the opening scene of It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World (which movie was alluded to strongly in a late season 3 episode of Lost) had been deferred to close to the end, so we saw all these people chasing and scheming and didn't know what they were chasing after. But that's not an uncommon type of presentation in mystery stories, so it doesn't bother me much that I can't yet fill in that detail.

Robert

O
However, my discovery only really means something if I share it with those who helped me along the way. So here as a thank-you is my version of what “could’ve” happened immediately preceding the pilot episode opening scenes. This aspect of my theory was prompted by Lostmio’s fantastic “2 plane theory” so I really couldn’t have done this without him.

I'm monitoring this thread but steadfastly refuse to chime in on theories that rely heavily on memory transplants, hypnotism, etc. Even more so when theories disintegrate into personal attacks.

Hidly, I will correct your take that I'm a him. I've been a her for more decades than most posters here have lived..

Yeah yeah, I know - Hildy’s having more farewell comeback tours than Frank Sinatra, but I promise I’m back for good now. Sorry about my earlier hissy fit, and many thanks for your kind words of encouragement. Reading all your comments made me realise that until it’s revealed as such on the show, I have absolutely no way of knowing if my theory is “the right one” or not - no matter how convinced I may be in my own mind. And, as Lucidity rightly pointed out, unless I can provide valid evidence to support my own conclusions then I don’t really have a leg to stand on. Plus the clues are obviously there for the finding, and the makers openly encourage fan speculation, so who are we to blame if we stumble upon the truth (or not!) earlier than they’d hoped for? OK, Hildy’s convinced!

My so-called “ultimate” theory (terrible title, forget it NOW!) was based on three potential bombshell discoveries, and built on ideas we’d been discussing already - “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, CIA-inspired mind-control progammes, what flashback elements really represent, and my enduring suspicion that the pilot showed what happened when “flashforward Jack” finally managed to get back to the island. The new stuff focuses on the (possible!) original identities of certain central characters, and what they were doing on the island in the first place (although I concede that it probably still doesn’t explain absolutely every element of Lost because there’s no way of knowing just how far the writers are intending to take this thing). It’s all very
complex and interwoven, and it’ll probably seem as if I’m jumping about all over the place but please bear with me - it does all gradually come together (we hope!). I’ll take you through each part of my theory seperately to show you how I arrived at each individual conclusion, then maybe you can help me work out if each is a valid proposal - otherwise the whole darn thing falls apart like a pack of cards. But that’s gonna have to wait until next week because I’ve been a bit manic with other stuff over the last couple of days and I simply haven’t had time to sort out my jumble of notes, quotes and references for you yet. I’m really sorry to keep you hanging in suspense for even longer, but I hope you’ll appreciate that the Hildy household can’t always revolve around Lost.

In the meantime, I’m going to explain why I think Jack Shephard was Gary Troup - if only because it’s quite a funny reference and I thought we could all do with some light relief. Plus the same word-association technique could be useful if applied to alot of other aspects of Lost; it leads into one possible explanation for Jack’s “5-tattoo” story; and it throws up some interesting thoughts about just how truthful the makers have been with viewers since the start. Not least concerning the oft-repeated story about how Matthew Fox was originally intended to be killed off in the pilot. Read, enjoy - and it’s good to be back!

GARY TROUP = JACK SHEPHARD + JACK’S ARMY

The name possibly comes from Gary Numan and Subway Army, a UK electro band back in the 80s who had a major hit here with “Are Kids Electric?”. One of Gazza’s main claims to fame, apart from freaky make-up and weird croaky voice, was that he was also a pilot! And if I’ve picked up on the right reference, then it would definately seem to suggest that “Gary Troup” was heading a resistance group to rectify something on the island, and it involved piloting a plane there. Although it’s worth noting that Charlie’s brother didn’t always act in the best interests of his fellow band members.

a) Gary Numan > Gary New Man > Jack’s new temporary persona or disguise

b) Subway Army > Underground Army, or Resistance or Troop (ie. Underground is Brit version of Subway). Also provokes “Underworld” parallels, which could be relevant if this does revolve around people given memories taken from dead crash victims. (Hmmm - not so sure about the “dead” bit anymore. Think it’s more to do with being in a trance).

c) Are Kids Electric? > Philip K.Dick’s Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, which became Blade Runner movie about “replicants” given false memories which felt genuine > theory that Lost relates to false memories which feel genuine > memories being re-progammed like computers (which could explain why Kate had to be “re-booted” before trekking off in search of the transceiver!)

A couple of other things related to “subways” before I move on. Charlie’s flashback apartment was supposedly set in Brixton (ie. prominent tube station signage visible outside), although the real Brixton looks nothing like that. It’s a predominantly black area of South London (nearest US equivalent probably Harlem) which erupted into extremely violent race riots back in the Thatcher years, and was cut off from the outside world by police blockades for days as they struggled to bring things back under control. Local youths continue to have a rocky relationship at best with the police over its controversial “stop and search” policy regarding drug-related crime in the area. I was quite surprised Charlie’s character would live there because apart from the obviously relevant drug angle, I would’ve expected somewhere like Hoxton - a cooler edgier part of town which attracts creative types in droves (to such an extent that it’s becoming a bit of a cliché), or even Camden (grungier, full of Goths and a bit student-y but popular with hard-core muso’s). Living in either would’ve said much more about his character, in the same way that “posh Penny” realistically lives in uber-posh Knightsbridge, or Charlie realistically busks in Covent Garden since it’s always full of street entertainers. And with so many Brits in the cast, the makers can’t have been unaware of this fact. So Charlie’s unrealistic Brixton address could be relevant - especially since the island has also supposedly been “cut off from the outside world” for quite some time.

Naveen Andrews originally hails from an area a few miles down the road from Brixton on the same tube line. And a few stops on, there’s a famous tube station which was featured in the opening credits to a popular 80s sitcom about an inept but well-meaning revolutionary in suburbia called Citizen Smith. Oh, and his girlfriend’s dopey mum could never remember his name and kept calling him “Foxy” instead of “Wolfie”! I admit that all of this probably just struck me as really funny (ha-ha and peculiar) because I’m a South Londoner too, but despite this it still seems to throw open some interesting ideas about just how “realistic” people’s backstories are.

“THAT’S WHAT THEY SAY. IT’S NOT WHAT THEY MEAN.”

Jack’s correction of Isabel’s overly literal translation of his tattoos now strikes me as highly relevant, because I think the same could be applied to alot of what we’ve been told or led to assume about Lost. I’m now convinced that the makers have been telling the truth all along, it’s just that we’ve been allowed to misinterprete what they’ve been saying. It’s like them assuring us that honestly, the marshall “really is a marshall” - is that his real job, or is it his real name?

1) “GARY TROUPE WAS THE TURBINE MAN”

It’s apparently been confirmed that Gary Troup was “the turbine man”. This seems to imply that GT was “man killed by turbine” (ie. it killed him). But I’m convinced it actually means “the temporary persona or disguise which was metaphorically killed whilst the owner was next to/by the turbine” - in other words, Jack! Especially since Jack later destroyed the only apparent copy of Troup’s Bad Twin manuscript by throwing it on a fire, and I’ve previously suggested that Jack also burned the fuselage to destroy any evidence that he hadn’t been a passenger in that section of the “real” plane.

If true, this could confirm my theory that blood provides a hypnotic “prompt” for him if only because the man under the landing wheel next to the turbine was Jack’s first patient on the island - although it doesn’t take much skill to tie a tourniquet around someone’s leg. Perhaps more importantly, this was noticeably and quite deliberately the first sight of blood we got in those “post-crash” scenes (as confirmed by JJ in “making of pilot”). A similar effect was used in Schindler’s List where the only splash of colour in the entire b+w film was a little girl’s red coat - it made her stand out amongst a sea of other victims and created a stunningly emotive image.

SEEING RED

I’m still convinced real blood is also Jack’s assassin prompt - the blood on the cockpit window could’ve triggered him to kill the pilot; and it’s worth noting that he demanded that Kate talk him just as Ben’s operation was going seriously wrong (ie. he needed to focus on his conscious desire to save her rather than his subconscious intent to kill the patient?). It also could explain the real reason why he hasn’t “been” with a woman whilst on the island (ick!). But I think his specific “new persona” prompt was a bit more involved if only because the blood on “landing gear man” didn’t send him into a murderous frenzy! So I think the noticeable first sight of blood “wiped” or killed his temporary Gary Troup persona. And successfuly reviving Rose (wearing a very noticeable rose-coloured top, b.t.w) was the final part of the prompt which turned him into “Jack Shephard, miracle doc” once and for all. It’s kind of a “Days of Wine and Roses” prompt, with the blood representing the wine (ie. Jesus miracle metaphor), and the phrase suggesting the nostalgic desire to return to previous more happier times. Note that we don’t get to hear Jack’s name until after this point. (Forget that he’s recognized as Jack Shephard in the flashforward for the moment, I’ll explain that next time!)

Definately think Rose is the person (partly) represented in the 5-tattoo story, since his recollection of the moment when he finally became a “real” surgeon definately ties in with my suggestion that her revival was the final stage of adopting his “deadly doc” persona. The ‘5’ could represent the “1, 2, 3, 4, 5-breathe!” heart compressions required to revive her, and would tie in with the idea of God breathing life into Adam. The “angel hair pasta” could represent her “angelic” status in his life (ie. angel hair = halo-like afro; pasta = homely, nourishing, good). So yes, I think they both knew each other before the “crash” even if they’re not consciously aware of it now. Although I would point out that we should all be wary of assigning definitive “good” or “bad” status to anyone at this stage!

I also think “Rose” could be a highly important name because it reminded me of Shakespeare’s “a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet” and, specifically, “Rosebud” in the vintage movie Citizen Kane. I think she definately ties in with what had happened on the island before, and that those events represented some kind of “Fall”. So her name could be a reference to Citizen Kane’s “Rosebud” moment of happiness. (Read listing on wikipedia if you haven’t heard of it, plus related info on William R.Hearst and Marion Davies who it’s meant to be about. And if you can track down a copy of Kenneth Anger’s cult exposé, ‘Hollywood Babylon’, it includes a wickedly sordid piece of gossip concerning what Hearst’s nickname for his mistress really referred to!). Anyway, the Citizen Kane reference would also give us a “snowglobe” analogy since the protagonist dies having a last moment of rapture as he remembers his precious Rosebud sledge from childhood, and drops the snowglobe which prompted this memory of the last time he was happy before his life spiralled out of control. And Jack’s life definately seemed to have spiralled out of control the last time we saw him.

Director Orson Welles took this snowglobe idea from Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s ‘Kubla Khan’ which begins “In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree ...” The poem was allegedly inspired by an opium-induced dream, although some have speculated that its vivid imagery stems from a waking hallucination - which would definately tie in with my long-held suspicion that this all somehow relates to psychedelic drugs and “bad trips”. There’s widespread speculation on its meaning (I remember really struggling with it at school!), but some think it’s stressing the beauty of creation. It’s also featured in Douglas Adam’s ‘Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency’, as the ramblings of a ghost who accidentally created the human race. Which all ties in if Lost is indeed about the Dharma Initiative’s planned-for social utopia which somehow went horribly wrong.

One final point about Orson Welles. The wunderkind was also responsible for a very famous radio version of H.G.Welles’ War of the Worlds back in the 1940s, which was so realistic that much of America was convinced it was currently under attack by alien invaders! (The actor who played Lost’s “Eddie the cop” appeared in the recent movie remake). So just like the “man behind the curtain” in Wizard of Oz, it could be a hint that TPTB are making things appear much more frightening on the island than they necessarily are in order to control its inhabitants. Plus the radio angle could be highly relevant since I’m still convinced that Rousseau’s distress signal or similar was keeping some (if not all) of the people on the island under some kind of hypnosis. Don’t forget that MKULTRA included experiments involving radio frequencies to implant certain emotions in people’s minds. So now you know why I’m so eager for S4 to start, seeing as Rousseau’s signal has just been turned off!

JACK SHEPHARD WAS ORIGINALLY MEANT “TO DIE IN 2ND ACT OF THE PILOT”

This is arguably one of the most famous stories about the genesis of Lost, but the statement could also be taken two ways. I think it was intended to be deliberately ambiguous. Does it refer to the character dying during the second half of the pilot episode - or was his death meant to be part of the 2nd act or deed of the pilot character?

Apart from the fact that I sense Lost quite literally revolves around Matthew Fox’s character, I have a sneaking suspicion that the makers were actually feeding us a sly clue that “Jack Shephard” killed the person we know as the pilot. Let’s assume the man we saw identified as the pilot was there to carry out two duties or “acts”. First, to fly a disused Oceanic aircraft to the island so that it could be blown up overhead, forming an elaborate flare to alert the Others to their “new arrivals”. Second, following Jack’s anticipated (and quite possibly encouraged) hi-jacking of the plane, to find out if he had any contacts waiting for him on the island, kill him, then inform TPTB about the other interlopers so that they could be eradicated too. Note that the pilot is plucked from the cockpit AFTER Jack has told him how many survivors there are back on the beach. So in effect, Jack could’ve killed the pilot to prevent (or interrupt) his “second act” of duty. If he’d been able to carry it out as originally intended, “Jack Shephard” would most definately have died “in the second act of the pilot”. As it was, Jack got to him first - and we got a hero.

WAS JACK THE REAL PILOT?

Highly possible - seeing as we’re still waiting for an explanation for those “few flying lessons”, which he supposedly still found time to take even though he was apparently so devoted to his career as a miracle surgeon that it ruined his treasured marraige in the process. And don’t forget that the first shot of Matthew Fox in “the making of the pilot” featurette shows him in the make-up chair having that wound applied. So were we being shown the “pilot person” being made, complete with requisite battle scars?!

I personally believe that the wound was fake in the story too, if only because this would explain so many later enigmas. How a still-fresh wound (sewn by an amateur) wouldn’t ooze blood onto that startlingly pristine white t-shirt he wears in subsequent scenes. How there’s no evidence of any wound or scarring or bruising in following episodes, when he strips off to rescue Boone or when being chased by bees into the caves. (Yeah, I know - the things a girl has to watch in the name of “research”!). And even though he looked and quite possibly felt in great pain whilst Kate was tending to him, we shouldn’t forget that he was being played extremely convincingly by an actor who wasn’t actually in real pain. Or that it’s possible to enter a trance so as NOT to feel any pain when walking on red hot coals during certain religious ceremonies. Or that S2-dvd features showed us how they managed to make it look extremely convincing when Matthew Fox appeared to sew up Dominic Monaghan’s cheek in Fire+Water.

It’s also worth noting that Michael Keaton was allegedly originally cast to play Jack, but he left the production after the decision to kill him in the pilot was reversed. Keaton also played Batman, and there’s been lots of talk about “superheroes” and “alien super powers” with regard to Lost. So this could be another clue that the show’s hero has a secret hidden identity, and currently possesses “super” surgical skills which are actually “alien” to him.

THE PILOT’S CORPSE - “OF COURSE IT’S ONLY A DUMMY”

Sorry I’m still banging on about this one, but I’m still convinced it wasn’t the body of the person we’d just seen plucked from the cockpit. Think about it - there is absolutely no way that Kate and Charlie could’ve made an accurate identification from where they were standing since they couldn’t even see the face from that distance or that angle - it was staring up at us!

Kate and Charlie automatically assumed that it was the pilot because they found a winged badge in the water beneath, the body was dressed in white shirt/black trousers like the pilot, and they’d just seen him plucked from the cockpit and “his blood” spattered dramatically on the windscreen. All that blood and gore automatically drew their eyes to the torso rather than to more identifiable features on the head. And it was too high up (and too dangerous a situation since Smokey was probably still in the vicinity) to investigate further. And Jack assured them that it was the pilot even though he readily “admitted” he hadn’t seen the corpse being placed there since he was “hiding” in the bushes at the time! (Note that Charlie is also doing something illicit when Kate discovers him hiding in the nose-section toilets). So whilst they probably made what seemed to them like an accurate judgement given the circumstantial evidence, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was the right one. And it definately doesn’t mean that we should accept it as gospel - especially since we got a much better look at the face, and the hair was much longer the “real” pilot’s.

Also, the makers’ comments surrounding this scene could also be misconstrued. They tell us that “obviously” it’s a dummy because the tree wouldn’t hold the weight of a real person; and they thought it looked “reasonably” like the actor to be relatively convincing from a distance. We assume they’re only talking about the filming process since the comments are made in a “making of” feature. But both comments are valid points whether you’re talking about an actor making a tv show, or his character in that specific situation in the jungle. A dead body feels heavier not lighter - that’s why it’s called “a dead weight”. So why are we so willing to accept that the tree could support the weight of a corpse when the makers openly admitted it wasn’t sturdy enough to support the actor or his stuntman? Were they really telling us that it was a dummy in that actual bit of the story too? Just a thought.

That’s it. More next week as soon as I get time.

H x
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Hidly, I will correct your take that I'm a him. I've been a her for more decades than most posters here have lived..

You and me both, babe! Sorry for jumping to the wrong conclusion, and I promise I wont’t get it wrong in the future. H x

Hildy,
Glad you're back.:thumbsup:
Haven't got time to process all of the Jack stuff right now, but just wanted to say I'm glad you've decided to continue posting.

Thanks Luc - it's good to be back!

And yeah, please do try and have a look through that last alarmingly l-o-n-g post of mine because I want to sort that one out before I start tossing out the new theories.

H x

Just checking I've worked out how to "spoiler" something ...

So please ignore this!
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Sorry I haven’t posted for a while but I’ve been trying to put this little (!) lot together for you and there were a heck of alot of incredibly relevant clues to cram in. I know it’s long but please do read it all because I really want to hear your take on what I’m about to propose. You’ll probably find it easier if you print it out to read and absorb gradually at your leisure - so good job it’s the weekend, eh?!

“DESMOND AND JACK ARE BROTHERS WHO SWAPPED IDENTITIES”
(with a quick detour via “JACK & ROUSSEAU ARE MARRIED”!)

Sounds crazy, I know, but please hear me out because I think these two theories hold the key to unlocking a huge part of Lost’s backstory - not least how and why flashforward-Jack initially escaped the island prior to his eventual return in the pilot episode; and how he could still recognized as Jack Shephard in those “flashforward” scenes despite my assertions that it’s just an assumed identity. This conclusion was the culmination of lots of other ideas we’d already been discussing including flashback memories and what they represent; possibility that Jack had been in the Swan hatch previously; possibility that Jack was the Razdinsky who’d painted the lockdown map and “killed” himself; plus my more recent suggestion that Jack was Ben’s “Jacob”.

Tackling Ben’s disturbed father-son type relationship with his “creator” Jacob threw up the possibilty that this was all some complex Oedipus-style scenario. Which seemed to make sense because of the show’s emphasis on Greek mythology, eyes and vision, and destiny (ie. Oedipus unwittingly murdered his own father in order to marry the Queen, who’s actually his own mother - he blinds himself when the truth is revealed, as self-punishment for foolishly trying to trick the Gods and avoid his destiny). If true, this would mean that Ben would have to kill Jack in the future (eek!) (*) But in order to be totally true to the source material, Ben would also have to be unwittingly connected with “his mother” at present. Which means she also had to have been connected to Jack in the past, even if we (and Jack) aren’t necessarily aware of it at the moment.

(*) B.t.w I’m not saying that Ben definately will kill Jack, just that it’s a distinct possibility he’ll try. And up until now, Ben has seemed to have more of a “connection” with Locke who he has tried to kill. I think this was an ironic case of mistaken identity based on Ben’s - and possibly the viewers’ - assumption that great responsability only comes with great age.

But back to “Jack’s Queen”. Juliet was one early possibility since I think Ben displayed some kind of attraction towards her when he showed her the footage of “her sister and nephew” as proof that he hadn’t lied to her. And Juliet and Jack have a strong chemistry which suggests to me some kind of previous involvement (even if they aren’t necessarily aware of it now). Plus Ben has commented on her “obvious” ressemblance to Jack’s ex-wife. However, I really don’t think she and Jack were still “an item” by the time the pre-pilot events kicked off (I’ll explain why another time). So I focused instead on Rousseau because Ben had been parenting her child and, according to lostpedia, the two actors share the same birthday. Plus my knowledge of the Oedipus story comes from studying Jean Cocteau’s play version, La Machine Infernale, in French. And I’d already found out that Jack was a French derivative of Jacob. And Rousseau’s supposedly French (although confusingly, I think she’s actually Swiss!).

REVOLUTION ON THE ISLAND

I’ll post specific evidence to support my theory about Rousseau and Jack’s previous history another time, but meanwhile remember that she’s referred to “her love” as Robert because I think this (or its derivative, Bobby) was the original true name of the character portrayed by Matthew Fox. I also think that they were the Island’s “First Family”, and therefore became its key victims when Ben and the Others eradicated the Dharma Initiative and assumed control - in much the same way that Tsar Nicholas’ family became key victims of the Russian Revolution. And yes, highlighting this famous Russian parallel is absolutely intentional because I think Mikhail is actually Rousseau’s brother and it’s the precise reason why he adopted a fake Russian persona in the aftermath of The Purge. More food for thought: the murdered young Tsavareich (ie. heir to the Russian throne) was called Alexei and he had a rare blood disorder - which seems to imply that Boone could be “Jack’s” son since he was also heir to a family business and had a rare blood type!

It’s also worth mentioning that Boone’s family business was called Carlysle Weddings, and that Desmond and Penny fell in love en route to Carlisle. I think Desmond was on the island in preparation for his wedding to Penny when he became caught up in the Purge, and nobly felt obliged (or was forced?) to swap identities with his brother so that one could escape against all odds in order to fetch help. Also, amongst the many books in Jack’s flashback office there’s one called “The Scottish Bride” - romantic “potboiler” fiction seems unlikely reading material for such a self-acknowledged “intense” fixaholic, so it seems more likely that it’s a clue. Namely that Desmond’s memories of jilted Scottish fiancé Ruth actually represent Penny, and that “Ruth” was telling us how he disappeared a week before their planned nuptials due to a “Brother’s calling”.

Danielle’s psuedonym is taken from philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau whose Social Contract theories famously inspired the French Revolution. Specifically, the theory that it’s acceptable to force people to accept what’s “right” for the “greater good”. This reminded me of flashback-Christian’s assertions that he was willing to make great sacrifices for the greater good; not to mention Michael’s willingness to betray and even murder his fellow losties in order to get his son back. Rousseau’s theory was the main driving force behind a key period during the French Revolution known as “The Terror”, when Robespiere basically rounded up French aristocrats and sent them to the guillotine for the so-called greater democratic good. This reminded me of Dicken’s A Tale of Two Cities since it’s about this specific period - it’s also the name of a Lost episode, and we’re told Des had read all of Dicken’s books except his last one, Our Mutual Friend, so he would’ve been familiar with its plotline. But more importantly, Dickens’ Revolutionary epic is about two physically identical men who swap places - the British one allows himself to be guillotined so that the French aristocrat can escape with the heroine.

So this planted the idea in my head that Desmond had possibly martyred himself so that Jack could escape - especially since we’d seen that he’d almost lost his mind whilst incarcerated in the Swan. Which reminded me of Ben’s comments to Jack about martyrs and brothers in relation to Dostoyevsky’s Brothers Karamazov during his own incarceration down there. Switched identities ... brothers ... martyrs ... all to do with a daring and seemingly impossible escape? Then it hit me! (Enter at your own risk but this would explain one very specific clue)


THE PRESTIGE!
Christian Bale’s character is only able to do his seemingly impossible escape tricks because he has an identical twin. The pair have hidden their true separate identities for years - to the outside world, including “their” wife, there’s only one person. We’ve already had numerous nods to The Prestige on Lost including allusions to “smoke and mirrors” magic effects to obscure the truth, plus the duplicate bunnies in the Orchid film. But I think those clues were actually pointing to The Prestige’s specific “twin/escape” angle - easily overlooked because it seems so outrageous until you actually start to think about it, and you have to have read the book or seen the film to be aware of it.


continues ...

THE LIKELIHOOD OF JACK AND DESMOND BEING TWINS:

It’s debatable how far the makers think we’re willing to suspend disbelief considering Matthew Fox and Henry Ian Cusick obviously aren’t identical twins in real life. So it’s up to you whether you think their characters on the show could be actual identical twins, merely fraternal (ie. non-identical) twins, half-siblings from one parent’s separate relationships (ie. like Jack and Claire are supposed to be - not that I believe it!), or two men who simply bore a strong physical ressemblance to each other. Lost’s constant references to twins, bad twins, and mirror images make me personally think that they are actual twins - although I’m not willing to commit myself to saying whether they’re meant to be absolutely identical or not.

Jack Shephard was supposedly born in 1967 (according to lostpedia, anyway, although I can’t remember this being mentioned directly on the show - can anyone confirm this?). There’s no birthdate given for Desmond, although Henry Ian Cusick was also born in 1967. I realise Matthew Fox was actually born in 1966 but we have no way of knowing whether Desmond was actually born that year too. In other words, it’s highly possible the two characters were both born in the same year regardless of which specific year it was.

Both actors have dark hair and brown eyes - any stronger physical ressemblance has most probably been obscured by giving Jack an incredibly distinctive if not iconic crewcut n’stubble appearance, compared to Desmond’s usually long hair and fuller beard. So they’re similar enough to pass for brothers, especially considering how “Len Cordova” fooled alot of viewers into thinking his character was portrayed by Matthew Fox. In fact, I now think the whole Len Cordova thing was deliberately contrived to show that someone could look like Matthew Fox even though it wasn’t actually him (hmmm, I’m still not convinced actually!). I also think it was a clue that another “someone who looked like Jack but wasn’t ” (ie. Matthew Fox’s character who’s real name is Robert/Bobby) contacted Penny in the outside world, and she helped him get back to the island. If Charlie had allowed her to speak to “Desmond” in TTLG, the ruse would’ve been revealed - we just assumed she was talking about Henry Ian Cusick’s character because that’s the person we know as Desmond; she possibly assumed Charlie was talking about Matthew Fox’s character because that’s who she knew as the Desmond helping to rescue her actual fiancé, Jack Shephard. (Confused? It gets worse!)

Another potential “Pen & Des” clue - the woman in their photograph switched from one season to the next. I know it’s been explained that the original photograph was taken before the current Penny actress was cast. But I now think it was an indirect way of showing that someone who we know as a character wasn’t necessarily always played by that same person. In other words, Henry Ian Cusick’s character started out life as Jack Shephard even though he’s now Desmond Hume. Also, the photo-booth on the banks of the River Thames doesn’t exist in real-life but it is roughly the site of St.Thomas’ Hospital ... and Thomas means twin!

BUT JACK’S AMERICAN AND DESMOND’S SCOTTISH - AREN’T THEY?!

First off, I’m assuming Matthew Fox is actually playing a genuine American but nothing would surprise me at this point! (Check out the wikipedia listing for Kevin Costner’s No Way Out and you’ll see what I mean).

Matthew Fox’s character assumed his brother’s identity more or less “lock, stock and barrel” and became Jack Shephard the miracle surgeon based in Los Angeles, complete with unfaithful ex-wife Sarah. However, I also think these new (to him) memories also contain disguised elements of his own past life. Which means the implanted memories can rightly be described as both real and fake, because those elements which are fake for one person were genuine for the other and vice versa. (Confusing, isn’t it?!)

Isabella the beautiful foreign woman he was kept away from could represent his actual foreign wife who he’s currently away from. I initially thought her nationality was simply a nod to MF’s Italian ex-model wife, but it could also be a further clue to Rousseau since common languages in Switzerland are Italian plus the French and German which we’ve already heard her use. I think Christian kind of represents Jack’s conscience - the “evil” true version of himself and/or what he could become if he doesn’t rectify what happened previously on the island.

Sarah’s unfaithfulness possibly represents Rousseau’s similar unfaithfulness (I can’t help wondering if she had an affair with one of the test subjects, Jack punished him, and it triggered a revolt which resulted in Alex’s abduction and The Purge), although I admit his obvious continued love and devotion to “his ex” makes this seem relatively unlikely. So I’m wondering if fake-Jack’s “Sarah” is actually a mind-control computer he’d designed and had been using to convert dangerous prisoner test subjects into peaceful Dharma Initiatiates before it all went horribly wrong. Firstly, the computer in 2001: A Space Odyssey has a human name (HAL), and Jack tells Locke (paraphrased) “the last time I saw a computer which was going to save the world, it didn’t look like that”. Plus wikipedia has a listing for a computer called SARA. The two names are easily confused especially since Americans tend to mispronounce “Sara” as “Sarah”. Although I can’t work out what the SARA computer does in real life because I’m technically illiterate so maybe you can check it out and tell me - I could be majorly off-track here!

Henry Ian Cusick’s new persona was slightly easier. Any memories of his past success as a doctor and a failed marraige to Sarah were eradicated. He was allowed to keep a disguised version of his recent memories of new love Penny (probably to give him something to live for!), although the “bride he’d left behind” became Ruth, and his early days in the Swan became a period spent in a monastary. To avoid detection as Robert/Bobby’s American brother, he was given a fake Scottish persona - most likely inspired by the Scottish legend of Robert the Bruce and the spider (ie. spider’s example taught him importance of perseverence in adversity). This would explain why “honor” is misspelt on the poster for the regiment he enlisted in - a true Scot or Brit would’ve remembered it as “honour” so he must really be an American. I also think each brother was provided with a false memory of the stadium encounter so that each would still recognize each other on the island later even if all knowledge of their sibling relationship had been destroyed.

If I’m right with this theory, it would explain the possible true relevance of Des’ copy of The Third Policeman. In the book, it’s eventually revealed that the hero has been “dead all along”. If “Desmond” is just a made up persona then “Scottish Desmond David Hume born in 1967” doesn’t actually exist. So it’s true to say that Desmond has been “not really alive” (as in dead) all along too.

HOW THEY ENABLED “JACK SHEPHARD” TO ESCAPE THE SWAN HATCH:

(I’ll refer to each character by the names we know them as on the show). When revolution broke out on the island, Jack took refuge in the Swan hatch along with his brother who had only recently arrived to discuss his forthcoming marraige to Penny. Note that the Others probably weren’t aware of Desmond’s new and unusual presence there - they were too busy rioting, murdering and generally declaring themselves rightful heirs to the island. The two men locked themselves safely in but were aware that they’d still be monitored, so took great pains to make it look like only one person was down there by exploiting the countless mirrors and limited perspective of the CCTV cameras. Gradually, each man adopted the physical appearance of the other.

Check the S-2 opening scenes again, preferably in slow motion, because it’s now obvious to me at least that they feature two different people - one with a flat stomach, the other with a bloated stomach; one bulking up by drinking “power shakes”, the other slimming down by exercising; one with neat clean fingernails, the other with chipped dirty fingernails. This means that Cusick wasn’t lying when he said it was definately him in those scenes - it’s just that someone else was in them too! There are two distinct occasions when the two characters could’ve swapped places to maintain the illusion that there was only one person down there - Henry Ian Cusick jumps down from the bunk and is out of sight for a split second before someone else gets up from the floor and walks into the next room; one person clears the table and walks towards the sink, exits the shot screen left almost entirely for a split second before his replacement walks back into shot and starts washing up at the sink. There’s also a mirror shot where the bank of shelves containing the record player etc switches sides; the solid clump of red wax in the lava lamp switches from top to bottom in follow-on shots; the lid to the record player is down when the record is being selected, but up when the “same” record is put on the turntable. It’s very cleverly put together, and seems to be a nod to Hitchcock’s “Rope” which was edited to look as if it had been filmed in one continuous take. The showerhead shot is also a more direct homage to Hitchcock’s “Psycho”, and could be a jokey reference to the makers’ comment that Lost won’t end like Dallas where “Bobby emerged from the shower to realise it had all been just a dream”. I think the Bobby and Dallas reference is totally intentional, because I think Lost’s Bobby switched places with his brother so that he could put into action a daring plan to assassinate the leader of the Others. This also raises probably intentional parallels with the Kennedy assasination in Dallas, because there’s a conspiracy theory that “acknowledged” assassin Lee Harvey Oswald was actually Oswald’s double who had switched places with him during his time in Russia. And it probably explains why Kate’s toy plane originally came from Dallas. Clever, eh?! (B.t.w - the song in the S-2 opening scenes is also relevant. It’s by Mama Cass who used to be part of a group called “The Mamas and The Papas” - and I think the losties used to be part of a group of “mamas and papas” before they were given/adopted their fake, largely childless personas!).

Jack knew the Swan hatch intimately because he’d been using it for mind-control experiments on hapless test subjects for years. (Yup, Jack was probably a baddie in his previous incarnation - the rotter!). He started to trigger intentional lockdowns so that he could paint a map showing the layout of the island for later reference (ie either in anticipation of altering his own memory in order to assume the ultimate disguise or, more likely, to help Mikhail or Desmond later). He also went through every aspect of his brother’s past life to equip him with his new memories (possibly because they had been brought up separately when their parents divorced many years previous - just like Kate’s parents had separated and she’d been taken away from “Daddy” Austen - or simply because they lived miles apart and hadn’t spent much time together in recent years).

Finally they were ready to put Jack’s daring escape plan into action. A lockdown was triggered, a gun went off, and when the lights came back on there was a “corpse” lying in the middle of the Swan Hatch living area. Probable that blanks were used to avoid any possibility of actually shooting Desmond (hence why Jack was apparently shooting “blanks” and couldn’t impregnate Sarah!), and that he’d been given a paralytic drug to make him appear dead (ie. like Pikki!) The Others assumed their prey (ie. MF) had killed himself and went to retrieve the body (ie. HIC). They threw it in the open mass grave (ie. same one Locke later seen in), then forgot all about him and the Swan. As far as they were concerned, the hatch was empty and an unwelcome reminder of their own past victimisation down there. Meanwhile, Jack emerged from his hiding place in the ventilation ducts overhead (ie. just like Kate!); cut his hair to alter his appearance even further (ie. just like MF shaved his hair off when Party of Five wrapped); threw his wedding ring down the sink since he was now meant to be unmarried (ie. tells Sun he once thought he’d lost his own wedding band down the sink and was forced to get a “replica”); left the Swan and eventually managed to escape the island in the Beechcraft. (Lots more probably happened to Jack before he actually made it off the island but I’m gonna save that one for another time!).

Mikhail later retrieved the “corpse” from the open grave and took Desmond back to the Swan. When he woke up and saw “Razdinsky’s blood” overhead, it provided a hypnotic prompt which turned him from “Jack Shephard, the surgeon” into “Desmond Hume, the victim”. Since the blood would soon dry to brown, the red prompt would only work the once. Probable relevance of red in this situation highlighted by S-2 opening scenes. The washing machine contains a couple of incongruous red items even though all uniforms were either beige overalls or white t-shirts, all towels were green, and all bedding was pale - so apart from the fact that there wasn’t anything red down there to wash, any red item would’ve “bled” onto them. So perhaps the “red sox” really will win the series!

Jack and Mikhail had previously fixed the computer so that the numbers had to be entered every 108 minutes “or else” (ie. most likely why there was one cemented-up area which couldn’t be entered, although it possibly also disguised an alternative exit passage linked to other hatches on the island). I’ve previously shown that MKULTRA employed magnetic forces to implant certain emotions in subjects - I think this was used here too, in order to make Desmond believe it was all real so that he could be kept tied to the hatch and safely out of view (both for his own protection, and to maintain the illusion that Robert was dead when he was actually still alive). Similarly, the “quaruntine” sign was on the inside of the hatch which implies it was protecting those inside with “healthy” minds from those with tainted or “diseased” minds outside (ie. the Others).

The time constraints of the numbers task made it seemingly impossible to leave the hatch for any length of time, and the deception was probably encouraged by Mikhail (ie. Desmond’s memories of Kelvin) to keep Des safely inside. However, I think it’s highly possible that Mikhail was able to leave Desmond alone for much longer periods of time without him realising, if the flashing lights on the computer were able to trigger some kind of trance in Desmond. A similar idea was used in 70s sci-fi classic, The Andromeda Strain, when a scientist misses a vital piece of data on a flashing computer because the colours trigger an epileptic trance lasting several minutes. Which could explain Sawyer’s trance-like state whilst in Room 23, and Hurley nodding off to sleep whilst on numbers duty. Not to mention Desmond’s conviction that he “flashed” back in time following the Swan hatch implosion (ie. he possibly didn’t time travel but merely OD’d on magnetic mind control, and had very vivid trippy dreams whilst unconscious).

It’s highly likely that Mikhail was Jack’s “mole” on the island, keeping “an eye” (!) on things in his absence and preparing for his eventual return whilst pretending to be a defector to the Other side. It would be possible to maintain this illusion since we know Kelvin/Mikhail left the hatch regularly (ie. Desmond didn’t arrive by accident so his boat probably wasn’t destroyed in a storm so Kelvin’s time outside wasn’t taken up reparing it); and that the Others rarely visited him in the Flame. It’s probable that Mikhail doctored the Swan Orientation Film to hide the fact that the computer could be used to contact the outside world, since Desmond’s presence had to be kept secret for as long as humanly possible (ie. most likely edited by Mikhail since he’s shown in control of video monitors).

I also think Mikhail deliberately enticed Desmond out of the Swan in order to trigger a magnetic anomally which would “fish” the cockpit of Flight 815 out of the sky and land it by the Swan - plus the hatch would be destroyed in the process, and Desmond would be effectively freed. The plan went tragically wrong when Desmond knocked Mikhail out (ie. Kelvin unconscious not dead = Mikhail’s apparent indestructability!). Des returned to the hatch, and cut off the anomally before the cockpit reached its intended target. The magnetic “mind-control” force was back on (ie. explains Hurley’s reference to Jack’s “Jedi moment”?!), and he resumed his numbers task unaware that he had just unwittingly caused his own continued incarceration. Now alone in the Swan, he was forced to complete the numbers task solo - the now unmanageable time constraints slowly turning him mad from sleep deprivation until he was rescued at the start of season 2.

It’s highly probable that Desmond’s copy of “Our Mutual Friend” was the real “Swan hatch failsafe”, in case anything went wrong and he tried to kill himself as the only apparent means of escape. (Debateable whether MF’s character gave it to him, or merely made use of a previous gift from Des’ beloved Penny). The failsafe key was kept in the book which was meant to be the last thing Desmond would ever read, and the only way he’d definately know he was about to die would be if he was planning to commit suicide. I think the book’s final lines probably contained a hypnotic prompt which would release him from his fake persona. Unfortunately, the Swan hatch was destroyed and the book along with it!

PILOT DATE RELEVANCE:

It’s debatable how long this crossover-and-escape process took because we have no way of knowing how long Jack had been in the outside world before the “flashforward” scenes in spring 2007. However, I think it’s highly likely that the island revolution happened in 2004 and that’s why Jack made the Others think the crash of Flight 815 occured on 22nd September 2004. The relevance of the year is obvious, but 22nd September (or Vendemaire) was the first date in the new French Republican Calender when Napoleon assumed power following the French Revolution. I also think Jack’s eventual return occured on 5th November 2007 - as previous “ruler” of the island, his choice of arrival date would be ironically fitting because it’s Guy Fawkes’ Night which commemorates an historic failed attempt to overthrow the ruling Protestant monarchy (ie. ironic in every sense since Jack probably intended to show the Others that they would never overthrow him, but so far he’s failed spectacularly in his mission to overthrow and kill their apparent leader!). If true, this would again seem to confirm my suspicion that Mikhail is Jack’s “mole” since he was in control of the monitors which provided the Others with visual “evidence” for the date Flight 815 exploded overhead. We have no way of knowing that Alpert definately provided the newspaper since he’s never shown in the playground footage.

... but a deleted S3 scene (apparently featured in forthcoming dvd) showed Jack assisting a child in a playground with the same red slide so I’ll leave you to make your own conclusions!

FLASHFORWARD JACK:

I also think the “flashforward” scenes showed Matthew Fox’s character desperately trying to maintain the illusion that he was his brother and avoid detection for as long as possible. Firstly, S-2 opening scenes of Desmond on the exercise bike show him with “love handles”, and flashforward Jack always appeared in public wearing obviously bulky layers. I initially thought this was meant to signify that he’d let himself go to fat on all that booze, but I now think his brother was initially a much larger build than him - hence all the power shakes in the Swan in an attempt to duplicate his physique. It’s debatable how large he actually was at that flashforward stage though, because obviously it wouldn’t be possible or practical for MF to pile on the pounds so quickly in real life. (I now wonder whether this was why the actor’s L’Oreal ad included a b+w boxing montage, an obvious homage to Raging Bull but also possibly a jokey nod to Robert de Niro’s infamous dedication to the role - he piled on the pounds by gorging on pasta for months to convincingly play the older, fatter Jake LaMotta!). It’s possible that Jack (ie. MF) was larger and out of condition at this point and that’s why he was always out of breath in the early portion of the show, and never seemed to eat anything apart from the odd slice of mango! However, it’s also possible that he was faking it and that’s why he wears bulky long-sleeved layers even though it was obviously warm enough for Kate to meet him wearing just a short-sleeved t-shirt. You decide - I give up!

I also think his ridiculously bushy beard was a further disguise, possibly because the real Jack Shephard had a full beard or simply because it obscured any vague facial differences.(Can’t help being reminded of the hilariously crap “evil terrorist” disguise given to the puppet hero in Team America whenever I see Jack’s flashforward beard, actually!). All this would explain why Kate and ex-wife Sarah recognized him as Jack Shephard even if he wasn’t. And could also explain why Sarah was puzzled that he didn’t know why it would be inappropriate to give him a lift home from the hospital - the real Jack would’ve known immediately.

I also think it’s probable that he contrived a drug addiction so that he’d be obviously incapable of conducting any operations - remember his shaking hands whilst reading Mrs Arlen’s medical records, and the Chief of Surgery’s obvious unwillingness to let him operate in his currrent state. Not to mention that he acted relatively lucid in front of the man at Hoffs Drawler and had to pop another pill whilst there, but was all over the place in more crowded public situations like the drug store or hospital - I think it was intentional to make people think he was in a worse mess than he actually was, if only because he turned up “clean and sober” a few months later in the pilot episode. If Matthew Fox can play an extremely convincing drunken addict without actually being one, then so could “Jack Shephard”. However, I think his suicidal depression was real - there’s a very famous episode of 1960s British POW-drama “Colditz” about a doctor who fakes his own madness as a means of escape, but subsequently actually turns mad and is institutionalised as a result of his too convincing “act”. If Jack’s disguise was becoming dangerously real, it would explain why he told Kate he was tired of lying regardless of whether she understood what he actually meant.

CO-DEPENDANT TWINS?

It’s worth remembering that until the Swan hatch was opened, Jack acknowledged that he was finding it practically impossible to sleep - he mentions it specifically to Kate during Hurley’s first Golf Tournament. When the boars attacked the fuselage, Jack emerged some distance from where everyone else was sleeping, and the only time he was shown sleeping near any other losties was when Kate drugged him! And we’re told he was a restless sleeper who talked in his sleep. During this same period, Desmond was suffering from constant sleep deprivation due to the crippling time constraints of the numbers task. The fact that both were suffering in their attempts to survive on little or no sleep implies that Jack and Desmond could be co-dependant twins. It’s apparently quite common for one twin to sense what the other one is experiencing even if they’re apart. A similar idea was explored in David Cronenberg’s “Dead Ringers”, where identical twins are surgeons and one suffers a debilitating nervous breakdown shortly after the other one because they’re so intrinsically linked. So this could imply that certain elements of Desmond’s flashbacks and flashes contain bits of fake-Jack’s post-Swan memories that he (ie. Des) wasn’t even actually aware of - like how he’d met pre-crash Charlie and Nadia - although I need to watch more episodes to see how plausible this is.

That’s it - phew! I’ll check in again next week to hear what you think.

H x

Well, that last “Des and Jack switched places” theory of mine went down like a lead balloon! This thread has had loads of viewings since I posted it on Friday but nobody has bothered to post any kind of response. PLEASE can you give me some kind of feedback even if it’s just to say it was way too long to bother reading, or that you think I’m crazily off track and should find some other tv programme to waste my time on!

But in the meantime, SamG has made an absolutely fantastic discovery regarding the similarity between Rose’s ring and Juliet’s mark. And on this thread, we’ve previously discussed the similarity between Juliet’s mark and the star-like tattoos inside Jack’s elbow.

The ring’s “star on cobalt blue background” design reminded me of the CIA’s logo. And don’t forget that in Sayid’s flashback memories, the black female CIA operative he encountered in Sydney always wore rose-pink shirts. Now I’m not necessarily saying that Rose is definately CIA, but it does seem to suggest that she had some kind of link with them in the past.

Links to pix of Rose’s ring, the CIA logo, Juliet’s mark, and Jack’s star-like tattoo below. Are we onto something here, or could they all be just a bunch of red herrings?!

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=66516&fullsize=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ACIA.svg
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image%3AJulietmark.jpg
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image%3A008.jpg

The ring’s “star on cobalt blue background” design reminded me of the CIA’s logo.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=66516&fullsize=1


It's called a "compass rose" (haha.) Though of course, both the ring is slightly stretched vertically from a true compass rose. Juliet's mark is circular, with an elongated "north."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass_rose


Perhaps Rose was sent to be their guide? Maybe she works with the "course correctors."

Well, that last “Des and Jack switched places” theory of mine went down like a lead balloon! This thread has had loads of viewings since I posted it on Friday but nobody has bothered to post any kind of response. PLEASE can you give me some kind of feedback even if it’s just to say it was way too long to bother reading, or that you think I’m crazily off track and should find some other tv programme to waste my time on!
I tend to think, especially with the graphic format here, that posts like "IAWTP" and "great thinking" and "you're off your rocker" are a waste. I read it and had no desire to write anything back or to add; however, I told my friend John (not a computer user) that I would try to print it for him some time, just because I think it's so interesting. You're one of the few who seem to think about Lost the same way I do, finding a few clues here & there but thinking that whatever's going to be revealed will be big yet pretty well concealed, albeit with just enough clues to say we could've solved it. Like my theory, yours will likely neither be proven nor disproven until probably very near the end of the serial.

But now that you've goaded me into writing I'll say that you have one of the better explanations for the sequence of shots in MOSMOF. My own is not that there are two "Desmond-Jacks", although I do think it likely that at least one of them has a double, but that there were two Swans, the other one located in Iraq or the UK.

Robert

Doc:
Thanks for that, Robert. I really appreciate that you took the time to read my last epic post, and that you found it interesting enough to show to your friend. I have to admit it’s a real problem knowing how to present theories on here. I feel obliged to provide tons of evidence to support what I’m trying to propose but then it just ends up too long for anyone to want to comment on! Do you have any suggestions as to the best approach to take in future?

I absolutely agree that the ultimate “big reveal” probably won’t come until very near the end of Lost - otherwise, why would we bother to carry on watching if it doesn’t match our own theories? I also agree that whatever that eventual explanation is, we’ll realise there had been just enough clues scattered throughout all past seasons if only we’d known what to focus our attention on.

Am intrigued you think that even if Des and Jack aren’t brothers, at least one of them has a double - have we seen him yet?! I also like the suggestion about the two Swan hatches - have we talked about this before? I know someone’s mentioned it previously. I’d lean more towards it being in the UK if it does exist, if only because I think the whole Iraq angle could be a bit of a red herring in these post 9-11 days (in much the same way that the stereotypical baddies always used to be Russian or Nazi!), and because Brits usually get called upon to play the “ethnic baddie” in Hollywood blockbusters. Both of which, I think, provide good enough reason for us not to underestimate Lost’s resident “Iraqi”!

B.t.w sorry to sound like an idiot but what’s “IAWTP”?!

H x

TWO Swans…..? Way-hey! That sounds like sooooo much fun. Especially in one of them turns out to be off Island – I recall Harry Palmer escaping his Ipcress File room 23 like brainwashing experience (you can keep Kubrick – he’s cool but Harry’s better),…and running straight into a red London bus.

He believed himself somewhere behind the iron curtain at the time I think (not seen it in a while).

Incidentily, one of LOST’s numbers features - T108 is a code word for a rendezvous location – a park bench. :biggrin: So NOT Bond and that’s why I love it.

Liplocked:
Ooh-er, now this is just getting freaky! It is so weird that you’ve mentioned The Ipcress File because I’ve recently been wondering about Harry Palmer and whether it could relate to Sayid’s real story - ok, mainly because Naveen Andrews is a good ‘ole Sarf London boy and so is the wonderful Maurice Micklewhite (better known as Michael Caine). It so wouldn’t suprise me if “Sayid” turned out to be a London lad called Harry. Especially since that “steam-rollered Harry Potter” gag came when Sayid made Sawyer his reading glasses. And according to the wikipedia listing, Len Deighton’s hero was a gourmet cook - and we’ve seen Sayid working as a chef in Paris!

Have to admit I’ve never seen The Ipcress File (currently dithering over whether to splash out on the dvd), so please could you tell me what Palmer’s room 23-like experience was all about. And can you think of any other possible Lost parallels?

it’s a real problem knowing how to present theories on here. I feel obliged to provide tons of evidence to support what I’m trying to propose but then it just ends up too long for anyone to want to comment on! Do you have any suggestions as to the best approach to take in future?
No. I have people writing that they need me to recap all of my connected ideas about Lost because they make no sense in isolation, and that would be a ridiculous way to conduct discussion in an online forum.

Am intrigued you think that even if Des and Jack aren’t brothers, at least one of them has a double - have we seen him yet?!
I think we've seen Jack's at least once in the season 3 concluding episode flashforwards. Desmond I'm not so sure has one, but it wouldn't surprise me. Locke, Walt, and Bakunin I'm firmly convinced have doubles whom we've seen.

I also like the suggestion about the two Swan hatches - have we talked about this before?
Maybe. I think Desmond was "programmed" in one, although that wasn't the only place in which that was done to him. Rather than being a Manchurian Candidate, completely unaware of his programming, Desmond's awareness of it is in the form of prophecies.

However, we've also gotten some clues that Desmond is running a prophet con. It's just that certain details of his career make it difficult for me to figure how he could be doing it on purpose rather than being a sucker of someone else's con. There is, however, a way out that saves both and is what I think to be a common pattern on Lost: that he's pretending to be a sucker. I'm just not sure of that one in his case.

what’s “IAWTP”?!
I Agree With This Post.

Robert

I see your post Hildy - I'm on it...

Cheers, luv! I think we could be onto something here ...
100%
Hey Doc - thanks for clearing up the “IAWTP” conundrum!

Jack double in S3 flashforward, eh? V-e-r-y interesting! it’s kind of the same thing I’m proposing altho I realise you don’t think "Jack" was pretending to be "Desmond". But hey, at least we both agree that there was something suspect about the person we saw in the flashforward!

Do you think the drunken addict thang was just an act? I do. And do you think Matthew Fox’s character really is the real Jack Shephard? Sorry, but I still think his real name’s Robert and Desmond is the real Jack Shephard. (I realise I’m probably gonna be SO wrong about this one it’s just not funny).

Not sure I agree with the prophet Des angle - sorry. I just can’t help thinking the whole “seeing the future” thing is a big red herring and that there’ll be some much more down to earth explanation for it. If only because the psychic turned out to be a fake by his own admission - although I suppose he could’ve had an ulterior motive for lying about this. But if Desmond and Jack/Robert/whatever are co-dependent twins, maybe those flashes were just memories or emotions that his brother was experiencing at that time. I admit I’m just acting on a hunch at the moment, rather than basing this on any specific evidence. I need to compare what Jack was up to when Des had the flashes to see if there’s any mileage in this latest wacky idea of mine.

Also, don’t you think it’s weird that Des’ flashes led to Charlie turning off the radio jamming equipment? I mean, if you wanted someone to do something which they wouldn’t normally be willing to do, you could convince them that they had nothing to lose because they were destined to die anyway so why not do it to help the girl you love. Which could equally apply to Des in the Swan I suppose. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think some of our losties have been manipulated to do certain things.
100%
One final thought. Desmond had a gold-plated pocket watch which was returned to him when he left the garrison (LT,DA). It
100%
OK - let’s try again!

Desmond had a gold-plated pocket watch which was returned to him when he left the garrison (LTDA). It’s quite an unusual time-piece for someone to carry these days, and it reminded me of the White Rabbit’s fob-watch in Alice in Wonderland (“I’m late, I’m late, for a very important date!”). Perhaps Des was the “White Rabbit” Jack was looking for ....

Well, that last “Des and Jack switched places” theory of mine went down like a lead balloon! This thread has had loads of viewings since I posted it on Friday but nobody has bothered to post any kind of response. PLEASE can you give me some kind of feedback even if it’s just to say it was way too long to bother reading, or that you think I’m crazily off track and should find some other tv programme to waste my time on!




Hildy, please don't stop posting your ideas/theories. The theory section is what keeps me going until the next season. Your ideas are so well thought out and presented that I have nothing to add, but I will give you props from now on. I'm sure there are a lot of posters like me who hardly post anymore, but are here everyday in hopes someone like you has posted a new theory.

P.S. I loved the explanation for the opening scene in MOSMOF

A fan ;)

Hildy, please don't stop posting your ideas/theories. The theory section is what keeps me going until the next season. Your ideas are so well thought out and presented that I have nothing to add, but I will give you props from now on. I'm sure there are a lot of posters like me who hardly post anymore, but are here everyday in hopes someone like you has posted a new theory.

P.S. I loved the explanation for the opening scene in MOSMOF

A fan ;)


Aw, thanks Waltisfuture! I really appreciate that. Fear not, Hildy isn't going anywhere despite what she may have said a few weeks back. So please do keep visiting this thread and I hope you'll add some of your own ideas to our discussion.

H x

Hildy ~ Very briefly (had to pick my kid up from school early and my time's no longer my own) : Palmer is strapped into a chair in a darkned room - having been softened up a bit first - and subjected to the same kind of audio/visual presentation that Karl was treated to, and, lest we forget; Alex, in Clockwork Orange.

(Maybe our Alex was 'fixed' in the trippy chair - so she didn't go the way of her mother. I'd love the irony of her then having been raised anyway by a father who killed all of his team in much the way Danielle did. :biggrin: )

Harry resists his brainwashing through self inflicted pain - he palmed a bent nail as he were abducted and crushes it into his hand.

If you gan get through the Cool Britannia vibe without breaking into giggles or asking "Isn't that that posh bird from Crossroads?", you can see a glimpse of his ride here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui5ec35Toc4&mode=related&search=

Thanks for that, Liplocked. I think a trip to HMV is in order tomorrow - if only so I can find out which one’s the posh bird from Crossroads!

That mind control angle definately seems to tie in with Karl’s past experiences, and I bet he’s not the only one. I wonder whether Sayid will tie in with this somehow, either as the tortured or the torturer - he’s had flashback memories of both. And I can't help feeling that Hurley was previously a victim too - maybe subjected to "cursed numbers"-related mind control and force-fed to turn him into a maleable, docile victim? Or am I just letting my imagination run away with me?

It all sounds very nasty and I’m sure there’s been some even more twisted forms of torture performed on the island previously even if we’re not aware of it at present. I’ve been checking up on forms of torture (as you do!) over on wikpedia, and the Nazis used to test the effects of “Lost” gas (also known as mustard gas), and salt water diets on hapless prisoners (reminded me of Michael telling Walt not to drink the sea-water whilst brushing his teeth). Not to mention the whole perverted “twin” angle of Josef Mengele’s experiments. Maybe the island was some form of concentration camp previously?

We've already had hints that the new season is heading in a darker direction - maybe this is it. Gulp.

Have you read Ira Levin's The Boys From Brazil, Hildy? it's funny to me to watch people jump on his Rosemary's Baby and think; you have the wrong book!

The scene where Mikhail... hang on; this one:

MIKHAIL: The equipment that's jamming the Island, can you turn it off?

GRETA: Sure. Ben gave us the code.

MIKHAIL: You are the only ones who have it?

BONNIE: Yeah. Why?

MIKHAIL: What would happen if this station were to be flooded?

GRETA: Nothing. The casing for the equipment is waterproof, it'll keep going forever.

MIKHAIL: Then why do you need to be here?

BONNIE: Because Ben told us to. We were following orders.

MIKHAIL: And you never asked why?

BONNIE: No. Because I trust him. And I trust Jacob. And the minute I start questioning orders, this whole thing, everything that we're doing here falls apart.

MIKHAIL: [To Greta] She makes an excellent point.

[He shoots Greta, who falls into the water. Bonnie runs, and Mikhail shoots her in the back. He kicks her over]

BONNIE: No, please.

MIKHAIL: I'm sorry, Bonnie, I too am following orders.

is a steal from a scene that takes place on a dam, where one collegue kills another with the explanation "I'm following orders", and with his victims complicity, because his superior (Ben) require it be done.

Clones, fathers removed at an early age and the attempted 'designing' of a child to a specified pattern... it's a bloody good read.

Do you think the drunken addict thang was just an act?
Yes. His making a scene at the hospital pharmacy had very much that quality of "trying to be noticed trying not to be noticed" that I've detected before in Kate & Hugo flashbacks. In particular, his deliberately knocking over the carousel display looked very much like Hugo's accidentally crashing into one in the store. It's also like "trying to be noticed trying to be noticed" flashback scenes other characters have had.

I do. And do you think Matthew Fox’s character really is the real Jack Shephard?
I don't know what "real" means if they're both acting.

Also, don’t you think it’s weird that Des’ flashes led to Charlie turning off the radio jamming equipment?
Weird, no. Phony, yes.

Robert

DrSuds:
Yup - definately agree that Jack’s whole “oops, I’ve knocked over a carousel!” display was highly suspect. I’d forgotten about the Hurley incident though, so thanks for reminding me. What was the Kate example?

Not sure what you’re getting at with regard to Matthew Fox, Jack Shepard and acting. Obviously MF is acting - but are you suggesting that the character he’s playing is also acting? Because this is what I was suggesting in the first place, so I’m a bit confused. In fact, do you think any of the other losties are acting, or do you think they genuinely believe they are who they (and we) think they are? Have to admit I can’t decide. Would it be possible to maintain the act for so long? Or can you highlight any specific examples where the act has slipped?

It sounds like we both think that Des’ flashes are suspect, although I don’t think he’s being deliberately deceitful - more that he’s been manipulated to act in a certain manner to provoke a certain outcome. In other words, he’s an innocent victim as much as Charlie was. Although it’d be a really good twist if we’ve all been focusing on Jack’s potential badness and Des turns out to be the really bad one instead!

B.t.w I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Charlie. He was such a much-loved character and I felt his “shocking” demise was just a bit too well signposted for it to be a credible “final exit”. Especially since it was caused by Mikhail who had a habit of turning up alive every time he was “killed”! I have a feeling Charlie’s unexpected reappearance could be the thing which finally alerts viewers to the whole “flashforward-before-the-pilot” angle that I keep banging on about. (Boy, am I gonna be embarassed if I’ve got that one wrong!).

Liplocked:
I’m presuming Levin’s Boys from Brazil is the same one made into a film starring Laurence Olivier and Gregory Peck. I haven’t read the book or seen the movie, but am trying to track down either at the moment. Peck’s character was based on Josef Mengele, the so-called “Angel of Death” who conducted human experiments at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It’s a far cry from Peck’s role as the heroic lawyer-father Atticus Finch in To Kill A Mockingbird (kind of referenced in Lost via a nod to Vanilla Sky with Juliet’s “cue-card” video telling Jack to kill Ben). And weirdly, there’s an “Dr Atticus” in the remake of The Manchurian Candidate, who is conducting covert mind-control experiments which include memory erasure and creating unwitting assassins! It’s also worth noting that MF’s L’Oreal ad included a shot where he’s jogging in New York which definately reminded me of The Marathon Man - another movie with a central villain based on Mengele, although here he’s a dentist (like Bernard - eek!) rather than a doctor. However, I must admit that I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that ANYTHING can be linked to Lost if you look hard enough, so I’m really not sure if any of this will be relevant or if I’m just trying to make it relevant!

If this potential “Dharma Concentration Camp” angle does turn out to be true, it could be very interesting because it would raise all kinds of moral and ethnical questions. Let’s say they were conducting human experiments on the island previously. A horrible thought, but would it still be wrong if it was done for “the greater good”?

I still think Dharma’s past activities could relate to turning “bad” people “good”, and that INITIAL test subjects were seriously dangerous or deranged criminals taken from Death Row. (Also think it's probable that things later got out of hand and other more innocent victims were included as a means of silencing them). The show’s multi-cultural range of characters also seems to suggest that Dharma could’ve been attempting to eradicate prejudice which, as we know, has tended to be the root cause of most conflicts throughout history. Lost has already tackled the prejudice issue with Michael and Jin, and with Sawyer and Sayid - especially Sayid, on so many levels.

Furthermore, it’s become terrifyingly apparent ever since 9-11 that it’s very difficult to fight a battle against any opposition with such a fanatical and often suicidal devotion to a religious cause. How can you ever hope to win against that, if they don’t value their own life let alone anyone else’s? Especially since one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. In other words, bombs and bullets are no longer enough to win a war but dealing with the prejudices that cause them could prevent them happening in the first place. Or, to use a medical analogy, we need to start treating the cause rather than focusing purely on the symptoms.

So if Dharma was attempting to eradicate prejudices and “badness” in people in order to create a future “social utopia”, would this excuse the fact that they were conducting inhumane experiments on people? Can it ever be justifiable to experiment on humans even if those subjects otherwise pose a serious threat to society? And would this make the people conducting those experiments “bad” even if they were attempting to do something for the greater good of mankind? I have to admit I can’t decide - its a real moral dilemma.

DrSuds:
Yup - definately agree that Jack’s whole “oops, I’ve knocked over a carousel!” display was highly suspect. I’d forgotten about the Hurley incident though, so thanks for reminding me. What was the Kate example?
At the hospital or clinic, passing the guard or policeman in the hallway.

Not sure what you’re getting at with regard to Matthew Fox, Jack Shepard and acting. Obviously MF is acting - but are you suggesting that the character he’s playing is also acting?
Clearly if one Jack is trying to impersonate another, he's acting, even if just one is an impostor usurping the other's persona without the other's knowing about it. If they're collaborating, at least one of them must still be said to be acting, but a case could be made that both are. But if we've been presented two (or more) persons as "Jack", which should we count as the "real Jack"?

I'm convinced more strongly than in the case of Jack that we have a pair each of Bakunins, Walts, and Lockes, and that each pair consists of collaborators. I don't concern myself as to which is the "real" one and which the "double". Even their names wouldn't matter to me, because I'm sure many more characters are operating under assumed names than has been made explicit. In a show that's trying to stay close to real world plausibility, you think you'd have people whose real names are John Locke, Mikhail Bakunin, Edmund Burke, and so forth?

do you think any of the other losties are acting, or do you think they genuinely believe they are who they (and we) think they are? Have to admit I can’t decide. Would it be possible to maintain the act for so long? Or can you highlight any specific examples where the act has slipped?
Claire and Naomi have let out smiles and giggles visible to us. Locke appeared to drop character when he asked Benry for food; similarly Jack playing football. Locke has also winked a few times. One such time was boarding flight 815, when he got a nod in return from Jack, and Hugo and Walt exchanged thumb up & smile. Jack may have slipped in saying, "...most of us were strangers..." (my emphasis).

Robert

I’m presuming Levin’s Boys from Brazil is the same one made into a film starring Laurence Olivier and Gregory Peck.

The very same! Have two Scooby snacks. I fancy it LOST like for its sinister life-events-manipulation and attempt to raise a child to a specific requirement. The desired nature is believed in place from conception – the nurture needs a little shove.

I must admit that I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that ANYTHING can be linked to Lost if you look hard enough, so I’m really not sure if any of this will be relevant or if I’m just trying to make it relevant!

Welcome to the wonderful world of interconnectivity, where LOST is written by people who read, and dissected under a microscope by people with wide horizons. I play it as a game.

(My apologies to anyone who bristles at what they suffer as my nonsense, for me it’s no more than a little intellectual yoga; a spot of grey matter Pilates and nothing to get het up over.)

Prison and the comprehensive education system’s tabula rase mentality are examples of social engineering. So the world of LOST as-some-believe-it-to-be-about is close to home.

(aaaaad that would be an example of exactly the sort of thing I have to say ‘sorry’ for)

I still think Dharma’s past activities could relate to turning “bad” people “good”, and that INITIAL test subjects were seriously dangerous or deranged criminals taken from Death Row. (Also think it's probable that things later got out of hand and other more innocent victims were included as a means of silencing them).

There would have to be controls for the experiment to meet the scientific method, or one might try to prove the reverse – a ‘good’ boy beaten might meekly submit, or turn around and bite out your throat. Sawyer spoke to Jack about boys, dogs and beatings. (see previous reference to interconnectivity and subsequent apology.)

The show’s multi-cultural range of characters also seems to suggest that Dharma could’ve been attempting to eradicate prejudice which, as we know, has tended to be the root cause of most conflicts throughout history.

And I fancy the pan-generational cast represent the INITIAL you spoke of, and subsequent strains, so to speak; their progeny - like Gregor Mendel and his pea breeding. He was a monk in a garden like Des was.

Hmmm. Thinking on some of the other ideas here: John especially give the impression from time to time, that he’s stepped into the jungle… but someone else has come back wearing his shirt.

Dr Suds:
Am very intrigued by your suggestion that there’s a pair of Bakunins, Walts and Lockes. Hmmm. Definately agree that most (if not all) the people on the island have fake names. In fact I’m currently putting together a list of what I think everyone’s real names are - I’ll probably be wrong with alot of them but it’s still fun trying to work them out. At the moment just about the only name I think is real is Jack Shephard, if only because people in the outside world seemed to be aware of the existance of “a” Jack Shephard - even if the person calling himself that in the outside world wasn’t the real one.

Jack’s “most of us were strangers” comment is a weird one, isn’t it? I think it was meant to refer to the fact that Sun and Jin were married, and Michael and Walt were father and son - so obviously to the casual observer they wouldn’t have been strangers, unlike the rest of the so-called survivors. Which isn’t to say that I don’t think it might have a more hidden meaning as the show progresses! I think most of the central losties were connected in some way before the “crash”, but that still leaves all the “background artistes”. In fact, why do we never bother to wonder what their role in all of this is?!

LipLocked:
Thanks for the Scooby Snack, babe! But why are you so apologetic? There’s nothing wrong with a bit of mental yoga, and you certainly haven’t said anything to offend me - or am I too dim to see it?!

This whole interconnected thang is really something, isn’t it? In fact, I wonder if it’ll turn out to have a deeper meaning - something along the lines of, we’re all connected to each other so we all better start looking out for one and other rather than fighting. Live together, die alone, man!

That “submission vs. biting your throat” analogy is a cool one, LL, and I definately think it comes into play here - most probably the cause of The Purge actually. Although I do wonder whether The Purge was the initial uprising amongst the test subjects, or refers more to the “detox” process afterwards in an attempt to restore “normality”. Either way, it’s debatable what was being “purged”. Could’ve been instigated by TPTB in an attempt to deal with the ringleaders, and also silence anyone (on or off the island) who was starting to voice concerns about the ethics and safety of their experiments. Could’ve been instigated by those who’d revolted and who were now in control of the island - ie. they turned on their captors and gave them a taste of their own medicine.

That pan-generational element you mention could be important too. Definately think there’s something dodgy about certain younger characters. Maybe they’re offpsring of incestuous relationships (whether witting or unwitting). Sounds icky, but possible given the Josef Mengele parallels we keep talking about. (Ok, I keep talking about!). Not to mention the near-miss with Shannon and Boone. Still think there’s something relevant about why only Jack and Kate had blood samples taken by the Others (ie. definately didn’t take Sawyer’s blood - I checked the initial epi’s of S3), especially since Ben seemed to think they were a couple. Could also explain why Ben was so desperate to ensure Karl and Alex didn’t sleep together. I could be wrong though.

What do you mean about Locke and someone else wearing his shirt? That it’s not really him? Sounds intriguing - do tell!

Finally, could someone check something out for me because I can’t access youtube on this computer and I think it could tie in with something I’m working on related to the lockdown map, and certain “prop errors” and “time discrepancies” in flashbacks. I’ll spoiler it just in case, because I found it on a spoilery website and I don’t want to take any chances!

Over on http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com there’s a reference to something called the Lost Six Video. Has anyone heard of it? Am I right to assume it’s something different to the Orchid Video? It’s mentioned in a quote from AskKirsten and it sounds like it’s quite new - there was nothing about it on lostpedia or lost-media when I checked yesterday anyway. But it’s been confirmed as genuine by ABC so it’s probably worth checking out. If you can find it, can you let me know what it’s about - who’s in it, background and setting details, what it says etc.

The reason I’m so interested is because it’s called the “six” video. Just about everyone’s flashbacks or memories have some kind of six-related prop error or time discrepancy. Also, I think the lockdown map was pointing to something important about the Staff medical hatch - it’s the sixth hatch round when you read it clockwise, and the seventh is crossed out as if to draw attention to the preceding one.

At the moment just about the only name I think is real is Jack Shephard, if only because people in the outside world seemed to be aware of the existance of “a” Jack Shephard - even if the person calling himself that in the outside world wasn’t the real one.
Yes, that name seems to be established in the world in a way that would be practically impossible for it to have been a fully made-up persona. He seems to have gotten worldwide publicity, seems to be the son of someone with the same family name, etc. Even in a show like Lost, it would be too hard for that persona to have simply come from nowhere with fake papers and then vanished likewise. He's too grounded, though I agree that an impostor could have stepped into his pre-existing persona. But I don't think Jack's is the only persona whose real name we've gotten.

Jack’s “most of us were strangers” comment is a weird one, isn’t it? I think it was meant to refer to the fact that Sun and Jin were married, and Michael and Walt were father and son - so obviously to the casual observer they wouldn’t have been strangers, unlike the rest of the so-called survivors.
Yes, there was always that weasel way out of it, so it was never a smoking gun, just a suspicious line.

Re suspicious lines, reviewing episode 8 of Season 3 ("Flashes Before Your Eyes", I think), I LOL quite hard at the line in which Desmond welcomed Penny on moving into his "rat trap" of an apt. It reminded me of the Chris Elliot line from an episode of Get A Life's 2nd season: "Welcome to my sting. I mean, my stink -- my stinking little apartment." It's just one of those little things that make me think Desmond's playing dumb -- that he's trapping rats, i.e. treacherous crooks. Maybe Penelope & Claire were to correspond to the stewardesses he was shown to have on either arm when Boone said he was "helping himself" in a previous episode. If Locke can have a Mouse Trap, then Desmond can have himself a rat trap.

Robert

I'm only now making my way through this thought-provoking thread. I'm not sure that I buy Jack is a Dharma plant, or that his memories have been altered. But I'm struck by 42ndFloor's comment that Jack's tatoo corresponds with the compass bearing of 325 mentioned by Benjamin Linus. I was reminded of one of my favorite films Memento, where the protagonist is unable to form new memories. He has important info -- stuff he can't afford to forget -- tattooed to his body.

Hildy and I have discussed elsewhere the possibility that Lost is a story that starts in the middle. One way that might work is if all of this has happened before -- i.e., that we're seeing the latest iteration in a repeating cycle of events. So what if Jack's tattoo is a memory of some past attempt to "go back" to the Island using a course of 325? Sort of a subconscious clue that he leaves himself because he knows, like Lenny in Memento, that he won't consciously remember the way when events repeat themselves...

ETA: I just realized, the subconscious clue also works well if Jack is a Manchurian candidate. Hmmm...

bm,
I THINK the JackTat / 325 thing was my suggestion, actually.
Not sure if it was on this thread or the other one that started Hildy's thought process.

bm,
I THINK the JackTat / 325 thing was my suggestion, actually.
Not sure if it was on this thread or the other one that started Hildy's thought process.
Luc: Whoops! I was just referring to 42ndFloor's comment here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1632040&postcount=6) on the first page of the thread. But I seem to remember this suggestion being made before, and it's quite possible that you were the source. BTW, I just saw your translation of the virtual press conference. Very interesting stuff!

So what if Jack's tattoo is a memory of some past attempt to "go back" to the Island using a course of 325? Sort of a subconscious clue that he leaves himself because he knows, like Lenny in Memento, that he won't consciously remember the way when events repeat themselves...

I'm really not that big on geography, but if 325 was the bearing Ben told Michael to take in order to get off the island, wouldn't it be useless for Jack if he was trying to find the island? Not trying to dismantle the theory, I still think that there is something off about Jack (even if I'm not entirely with this threat's theory, but still), and maybe his tatoo has some sort of relevance for that, but this compass bearing thing throws me off.
As I said, geography really isn't my strong suit, so if anybody could help me out on this one, it would be appreciated. :biggrin:

bm,
No problem. Just thought I'd mention it.

The only reason I originally brought it up was that Hildy had said she felt there was significance to Jack's tattoo, and that maybe it represented a segment of the Bagua. Then one day I found a clearer shot of the tattoo and suddenly it didn't look so much like a Bagua segment, but I did notice how the angle matched our 325 thing nicely.

We all know the tat is Mathew Fox's own, but something like that angle (325) which is obviously going to be significant (the arrow on the Swan mural is at that same angle, among other things) could probably have been ANY angle they wanted to use, so it's the sort of thing that would be easy to make fit with Fox's existing tattoo.

Talking of the "Prison Break" idea of advanced knowledge, I'm 100% convinced that in the end Des's "You have to lift it up" will prove significant.

And if Jack's been through this before (maybe that's when he got the tattoo, in terms of the lost story) (and when else could he have got it? We've seen so many JackBacks that he's running out of time) maybe that's why he seems to have advanced knowledge of things. I always remember him telling Kate not to go into the jungle and Kate asking him what made him think they're safer on the beach - 3 seasons in, it would seem they ARE safe from Smokey on the beach, but how did Jack know that after 2 days? And another one I noticed just last night. When they blow open the Swan hatch and Jack doesn't want them to go down, Locke asks Jack why, and he never answers. Then later, all of the "It's YOUR button". Oh, and last one, I promise. In the Pilot DVD commentaries, when Jack is looking for my favourite Lost item, The Sewing Kit, Lindelof, I think it is, says "And Jack is looking for something only he knows" - how did he know there'd be a Sewing Kit?

Kerstin,
I'd guess the 325 significance is more than just a bearing.

Lucidity, just to add to Jack's possible foreknowledge/memory - I always felt that in WTCMB Jack came on so strongly about opening the case together because he already knew what was in it; even though he asks her what the plane is I'm not sure I buy that. He also knew she'd stolen the key out of Mars' wallet. I'm really not a fan of theories about Jack faking things or being "bad", but I can definately see the possibility of a time loop explaining his behavior & tatoos etc. I also agree and have said in the past how I love the "lift it up" comment and think it'll come into play. :twocents:

Kerstin,
I'd guess the 325 significance is more than just a bearing.

Unless Jack had it tattooed on there to help him get off the island, just in case he lost his memory. :rolleyes:

DrSuds:
Glad you agree that Dr jack Shephard has to be a real name because of all that “outside world” evidence. I’d be really interested to hear which other characters you think still have their real names - if only cos it could save me wasting time and brainpower trying to work out what the heck the alternatives might be!

BigMouth:
I must say I do love our “Lost started in the middle” theory! And I absolutely agree that all this has kind of happened before - or at least, certain situations are uncannily similar to things they’ve experienced before. Which seems to imply that Lost really is “some kind of” Purgatory (ie. not in a literal sense!), in that the losties will continue to unwittingly re-live past events or mistakes until they can rectify them. I also have a feeling that alot of the show’s dialogue could be re-used but in an ironically different context when we eventually see what preceded the pilot episode. And I’m wondering if this potential “deja vu” angle could explain the whispers - what’s your take on it?

One key example of a possible repeated situation that I can think of is the Boone/Joanna drowning incident. It’s already kind of been repeated with Desmond saving Claire (and Charlie too, indirectly). But I have a feeling the Boone incident was itself a repeat of something which had happened to Jack when he was on the island previously. Possibly something to do with trying in vain to save someone from either the Hydra or the Looking Glass. Stephen King’s “Hearts in Atlantis” is one of the books on the shelves in his office so that could be a hint to this, which seems to suggest the people he tried to save were very close to him (current/past lover? child/ren?). Could also tie in with the French song “La Mer”, as sung by Shannon and referred indirectly as being from Finding Nemo. (It’s weird she doesn’t mention the movie by name, because it was from the same studio that produces Lost. Even weirder that the studio was later unsuccessfully sued by a dentist who claimed they’d plagiarised his story called Peanut Butter the Jelly-Fish!). Anyway, I think Hurley could figure in this previous water-related incident somehow, if only because Finding Nemo was based on a French kids’ book called Pierrot the Clownfish and Hurley is kind of Lost’s resident clown; plus his surferish use of “dude” reminds me of the cute surfer-dude turtles in the cartoon!

As for Jack’s tattoo, I definately think he devised it as a Memento-type clue to himself. And I’m still convinced that it’s only decipherable in the mirror, to signify that the real him is a mirror image (ie. he’s posing as his twin!). Which would tie in with the 325 degree theory because it’s pointing to roughly 35 degrees at present. I wonder if it’s relevant that Memento hero is called Leonard, and Hurley was told the numbers by a Lennie in the Santa Rosa. Am also wondering if it’s relevant that Santa Rosa translates as “Saint Rose”!

Luc:
Good to see you back on this thread, I’ve missed you! I think someone did initially come up with the 325-tattoo suggestion on here, although I first starting posting my tattoo-related ideas elsewhere - on one of your esteemed, threads, I think! (B.t.w am opting to ignore your handy reminder that my beloved Bagua tattoo theory is most probably wrong, darnit!). As for when Jack got the tattoo, he definately had it in the “flashforward” and I think he probably got it when he left the island originally. I also think Claire could tie in somewhere since she’s shown working in a tattoo parlour and wore a chinese lettered pendant in early episodes. Either she’s the person who did it or (more likely, since she wasn’t actually a tattoist in the flashback?) the reason why he got it done in the first place. Which seems to suggest that Jack’s memories of Achara could actually represent Claire - and yes, I realise the potentially unnerving implications of this. Let’s just say I don’t think Sawyer’s “Chinatown” reference (to Pickett) was merely a snappy throwaway line. Finally, cool catch on the sewing kit comment in the dvd commentary.

Char:
Love the Dharma animation in your sig! And good catch about Jack’s possible foreknowledge about the contents of the halliburton. I’m convinced that it’s one of many props which Jack or “his Army” placed on the island for later use, even if they weren’t consciously aware of this when they found them later. This would definately explain how the case of guns could be found under the seat of the couple in the lake, even though in Kate’s flashback the Marshall was told he had to check it before being allowed on the plane. Same with Charlie’s guitar.

Finally, a few random thoughts:
I’m still convinced Jack was “the artist formerly known as Gary Troup”. Which leaves us with Bad Twin so try this one on for size. “Gary Troup’s Bad Twin” could be taken two ways because of the different applications of “apostrophe S”. It can mean “the book by” or it can mean “Gary Troup IS Bad Twin”. Ergo, Jack is the bad twin?!

Watched “Zodiac” tonight. It’s quite different for a Fincher movie, but I’d definately recommend it to anyone who liked “All The Presidents Men” (same feel), or to anyone who would like to see the wonderful John Terry in a non-Christian role as the newspaper editor!

Also finally managed to track down The Ipcress File. The memory erasure angle could tie in with my overall theory, and I’m still convinced Harry Palmer figures in somewhere with Sayid’s real backstory (although quite possibly in an ironic way, since I’m starting to wonder if he was always so brave and heroic). And in an uncanny Locke parallel, I was interested to find out that Michael Caine also worked in a box factory once! (B.t.w LipLocked, I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t recognise the posh bird from Crossroads!)

Bye for now - won’t be around much over the coming weeks but please keep the thread going in my absence.

H x

DrSuds:
Glad you agree that Dr jack Shephard has to be a real name because of all that “outside world” evidence. I’d be really interested to hear which other characters you think still have their real names - if only cos it could save me wasting time and brainpower trying to work out what the heck the alternatives might be!
Sun I'm pretty sure is using her real name, as is her father Mr. Paik, and I think they really are family, not necessarily biologically though I've no reason to think otherwise nor that their blood relationship would be more important than a familial one. I think James Ford is a real name that was really used by Sawyer. Jin I also think is using his real name. I'm pretty sure, though not as certain, that Hugo and Eko were their real names as kids. Juliet I'm pretty sure is using her real name too. I think Eko really did have a brother Yemi, though I have less certainty the one we've seen as an adult is that same Yemi. Kate's friend Tom used his real name.

Rose I think is using her real name, although I'll allow a slight chance it's fake.

I'm on the fence about Desmond David Hume. It seems too made up, but his name could be the fixed real name fulcrum around which the other characters decided to make up their philosopher names. I'm also on the fence about Kate. Claire's name I'm leaning toward as phony but think there's a fair chance it's real.

Boone, Shannon, and relatives I'm leaning fairly strongly towards being assumed names, but will allow a little chance of being real.

Names I'm sure are phony are those of Locke, Rousseau, Bakunin, Cooper-Seward, and Edmund Burke (Juliet got Burke by marriage, so her last name counts as real in my book). Richard Alpert is probably an assumed name, as are Penelope Widmore and Bernard.

Zuckerman's name is probably the one he's known by in the entertainment business. His Brazilian and "Razzle-dazzle" associates (I don't remember their names, but were known to some fans as the Barbie twins or Barbie dolls) were using phony names, although "Razzle-dazzle"'s was I'm sure the one she was credited by in the TV serial Expose.

I think it fairly likely the toddler with the Teddy bear we saw was really named Walt, but I don't think we've seen a real Walt at any older age. Even the original Walt might've had another real name.

BigMouth:
I must say I do love our “Lost started in the middle” theory!
While I don't go along with much of it, should it even be controversial that Lost is a story told out of order? And that it has shown us significa that occurred before the scene we were first shown at the premier?

And I absolutely agree that all this has kind of happened before - or at least, certain situations are uncannily similar to things they’ve experienced before. Which seems to imply that Lost really is “some kind of” Purgatory (ie. not in a literal sense!), in that the losties will continue to unwittingly re-live past events or mistakes until they can rectify them. I also have a feeling that alot of the show’s dialogue could be re-used but in an ironically different context when we eventually see what preceded the pilot episode. And I’m wondering if this potential “deja vu” angle could explain the whispers - what’s your take on it?

One key example of a possible repeated situation that I can think of is the Boone/Joanna drowning incident. It’s already kind of been repeated with Desmond saving Claire (and Charlie too, indirectly). But I have a feeling the Boone incident was itself a repeat of something which had happened to Jack when he was on the island previously.
I have two possible simpler explanations for the fact that Lost does everything twice or more. The first is that its makers are giving us clues -- that we'll catch on to patterns. The second is that some of the characters may previously have studied together and have worked out stock confidence acts.

Robert

Dr Suds...I see you have an "it's all a big con" type of theory, which appears to be gaining some notoriety here. I'd be interested to read your theory in detail, but I can't find the original thread where you outlined your ideas.

Any chance of a link?

Claire's name I'm leaning toward as phony but think there's a fair chance it's real.
But now that I've reviewed 3:12, I think it all the more likely that the "Claire Littleton" persona was made up debuting with her "car crash", before which she was supplied with phony papers and a phony history. So why should she have used her real name? Her speech to her comatose "mother" very much mirrors that between Benry and his "father" in a later episode, but Benry's "father" was at least able to answer re their supposed history, "What do I know?", while Claire's "mother" can't make any snappy comeback.

Also cute in 3:12 is the way Claire toys with Charlie, telling him Desmond told her "everything", and then clarifying, to Charlie's relief, I'm sure. As evidenced by Charlie's palming the note that would've gone on the bird, Charlie doesn't know that Claire knows. But Claire knows that Charlie doesn't know that she knows.

Dr Suds...I see you have an "it's all a big con" type of theory, which appears to be gaining some notoriety here. I'd be interested to read your theory in detail, but I can't find the original thread where you outlined your ideas.

Any chance of a link?
Sorry, there's no one place to look. I write my thoughts as I come up with them, here, in alt.tv.lost (as robgood@bestweb.net ), and, also sequentially (per the dated letters to Damon), at http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/teach in the "Get" Lost files. The last will get a big entry some time between now and when season 4 premiers, but I still have to finish reviewing all episodes; I'm now half thru season 3. That means that since a few episodes before the end of season 3, you'll have to get those thoughts I've written down in the forums indicated, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about the show that I haven't written at all yet. I've held off doing a season 3 wrapup entry. Sorry, no transcripts of my conversations with friends John & Alley.

I don't see it as being worth my while to consolidate my theorizing; rather, I put what's out there based on my reasoning on the evidence to that point. As points are raised in various threads, I explain my thinking about them, which shows, to the extent it can, how my theory explains things. So if you look things up sequentially, you can see for example that first I thought Hugo won a real lottery and was set up afterward, then briefly thought the lottery was rigged somehow, and finally realized that there wasn't really a lottery drawing at all, nor any prize. I went thru some time thinking Locke had electronic implants before finally realizing my friend John was right, that he's acting. But my general idea has been the same since before season 2 started.

If I did want to consolidate my theorizing, I guess I'd do it as a Lostpedia entry. However, I'm afraid I'm stretched too thinly to maintain it as the details change, unless I state it broadly enough.

Robert

^ Okay...I've spent the last hour or so ploughing through all the "Get Lost" material

Interesting theory, but can you expand on some of your thoughts a little, Dr. Suds?

Why would agency X feel it necessary to adopt such a costly, convoluted, over-protracted, unethical, risky and extreme approach to affecting global change? Surely there must be easier ways...no?

Of all the potential candidates in the world, why specifically choose an alcoholic set designer and a neurotic fertility doctor to be the unwitting catalysts for this change?

Hypothetically - if this "master plan" had been of your own personal devising, how much faith would you actually hold in the ability of your delusional, hare-brained scheme to yield the desired results?

long time lurker, very few posts.....yes, i have just read this thread start to finish in just under 3 and a half hours.

hildy- i admire your work on this theory and you certainly back it up with a lot of evidence. as with a lot of the time travel/time loop/ invisible island/ 'scientific approaches to 'lost', i find myself in the camp that finds those answers to be unrewarding....after all, scientific theory can prove anything you want it to.

i am fascinated by dr.suds theory and to my very inscientific mind it makes some sense and i really like the general idea that when the 'big reveal' happens, the 'general' audience will have a whole new show to watch...IE- the 'cons' that have been going on.

on the flip side, i cannot get myself to go 'as far' as suds goes. he kindly sent me his theories and i re-watched seasons 1, 2, and most of 3, with his theory in mind, but i am really just more confused.

^^^^trying to get where i am coming from with this post......my points/questions:

1) while the initial JACK/DHARMA connection makes some sense, i wonder why you would not pick the better candidate...that is LOCKE.....locke stops sayids attempt at outside communication, locke blows up the sub, locke has on air cordial communication with 'others', locke finds the hatch (es), locke finds the flame, locke blows up the hatch, locke is constantly by himself (whereabouts unknown), locke seemingly has the most incredible thing happen- not only survive the plane crash, but to be 'whole' again....countless other things

on the FLIP side, something that has not been mentioned HERE, is we have 3 seasons and the 3 seasons start with an 'eye openning'...jack, desmond, juliette <---the last 2 have 'some connection' to DHARMA, why would the first not?

2) IMO we did not see a 'flash-forward' at the end of season 3.....my eyes tell me that kate and jack both looked YOUNGER, but if it was a flash forward, i would think that the end of season 2 (the fella who looks like jack in the station) would also be....is there something similar in season 1 at the end (i cant remember right now).

3) however you want to orchestrate the crash (2 planes, no planes, etc), IMO you have 2 factions who in simplest terms are 'competing'....one for the goal, one trying to stop the goal<---- this fits nicely with suds theory. we have 2 big money men (widmore/paik), that would be a start. i clearly think that locke/benry/jin are on the same 'team'.

the locke/benry connection is obvious.....i put jin here because of the TOTAL lack of interaction between locke and jin on the show (a clue in itself IMO).....i cannot remember one scene they have been in together, although i am sure there must be. because of jin i will associate this group with paik (although it could be the opposite and jin has just infiltrated that organization).

jack is clearly on the 'opposite' team to locke and i guess it seems safe that juliette is with him(both doctors). desmond also seems to fit which connects them to widmore. (again desmond relationship could have been a failed infiltration of widmore, or perhaps successful).

anyway, desmond seemingly from 'peasant' means gets penny (widmore)
jin from 'peasant' means gets sun (paik).

neither are good enough for the daughter, although jin does get his wish, while desmond seemingly does not.

4) i cannot figure out WHY if 'pushing the button' is so important, benry would instill the doubt in locke that he did not push it in 'lockdown'......that doubt + the pearl video made the non pushing happen. it does not make any sense to me either way at this point......but like i said, i am in true no mans land right now as suds has created a monster.

5) for some reason, i have a feeling (w/o any evidence) that sayid is the charactor who has the most to reveal, and is much more important than many think. if we are in a paik/widmore, locke/jack world, sayid would seem to be a 'mark' as he is generally held in high esteem by all (hurley also).

^ Okay...I've spent the last hour or so ploughing through all the "Get Lost" material

Interesting theory, but can you expand on some of your thoughts a little, Dr. Suds?

Why would agency X feel it necessary to adopt such a costly, convoluted, over-protracted, unethical, risky and extreme approach to affecting global change? Surely there must be easier ways...no?
From the perspective of Veidt in Watchmen, no. And that's even if the goal isn't a venal one, as it still might be. Lately I've been thinking it might all be about Widmore & Paik each swindling the other out of his money.

But let's say it is toward some end perceived as a good deed. If you've ever been an activist, haven't you concluded at some time, rightly or wrongly, that your opposition is led by some misguided souls who use deception to misguide a lot of others toward their end?

Of all the potential candidates in the world, why specifically choose an alcoholic set designer and a neurotic fertility doctor to be the unwitting catalysts for this change?
To deflect suspicion. Because of your very skepticism on that point.

Hypothetically - if this "master plan" had been of your own personal devising, how much faith would you actually hold in the ability of your delusional, hare-brained scheme to yield the desired results?
None!! That's why Damon asked to be cut a lot of slack. It's a TV show, after all.

I think of the plots in many of Shakespeare's plays the same way -- wouldn't stand a chance in real life. I look at most dramatic fiction and think, yeah, sure...if everybody's an idiot! Doesn't have to be a mystery, either; I look at various tragedies and think, why don't these jerks come to their senses and arrive at a decent compromise? Love triangles -- just share hir, you dolts! Revenge? Why'n't you just drink and do lots of drugs, like any sensible person would, and then you write the novel instead of being a character in someone else's?

I don't even have the heart to carry on a practical joke for long. Once at Cedar Tavern, someone mentioned a certain word as being the worst cuss, and then I turned to Damon's father Dave and said, "Well, except for..." and just whispered noise into his ear. He went along with it and we pretended there was a cuss word that only men knew, but after a while I felt bad for our friend Nadine and told her we were joking. Dave could've played that one out for life (he was great for practical jokes), and the trouble is that the denial itself may not be believed, though I think I got Nadine eventually to believe it'd been just a joke.

4) i cannot figure out WHY if 'pushing the button' is so important, benry would instill the doubt in locke that he did not push it in 'lockdown'......that doubt + the pearl video made the non pushing happen. it does not make any sense to me either way at this point......but like i said, i am in true no mans land right now as suds has created a monster.
That should convince you that pushing the button had no real-world importance at all. If Locke & Benry both knew the apparatus was just a powerful electromagnet under control by other means, and only powerful enough to trash Swan itself, then they were just acting for Juliet and possibly others who could observe the goings-on remotely. Benry would be reinforcing his reputation with Juliet as a manipulator, and Locke as a man driven to find the truth.

5) for some reason, i have a feeling (w/o any evidence) that sayid is the charactor who has the most to reveal, and is much more important than many think. if we are in a paik/widmore, locke/jack world, sayid would seem to be a 'mark' as he is generally held in high esteem by all
Yes.

(hurley also).
But Hurley was not being treated as anyone's mark, except possibly Libby's. By now I'm convinced he's behind his own "con". His parents may not even have been in on it.

Robert

... and I’m back!

Finally managed to catch that “Lost six video” I mentioned a while back, and it does seem to be the Orchid Orientation film. I’m confused because by my reckoning the Staff Medical hatch is the sixth hatch on the map, but this film implies the Orchid is the sixth hatch. Either way, I still think Lost contains alot of hidden clues to the importance of “a” sixth hatch, whichever one it is! And the “cloned” bunnies could tie in with my theory that Jack and Desmond switched identities at some point. But I really need to wait for the new season to develop my ideas on this one.

DrSuds:
Hey doc - many thanks for outlining your real vs. fake name ideas, although I have to admit that I don’t agree with m/any of them. Sorry! I still think most if not all the losties have been given new names and identities - either as victims of the post-Purge cover-up, or as disguises for those on the covert rescue mission. And I’m convinced that everyone’s flashback memories contain a well-disguised version of their actual pre-pilot backstories, in much the same way that Clementine tries to hide out in Joel’s earliest memories in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I also think that off-island characters like Frank Duckett, Diane Austen, Zuckerman etc don’t actually exist as such but rather represent the “essence” or idea of someone else we already know. For example, Diane Austen as pre-pilot abused wife Kate; and Zuckerman representing the person running “experiments” on the island previously (much like Zuckerman’s Farm in the book, Charlotte’s Web).

I’m currently trying to put together my theories on what everyone’s real name could be, as well as suggestions as to the reasoning behind their presumed pseudonyms. But it’s taken me two days so far and I’m still nowhere done and I’m meant to be focusing on “proper” work at the moment! So please bear with me because it IS coming ... just not for a little while.

In the meantime, what’s your take on Danielle? I’m trying to work out her character and motivations but it’s a bit hard since I can’t decide whether she’s good or bad. Any suggestions?

Jororo:
Many thanks for taking the time out to read this thread, and for your very nice comments about the evidence I provide to support my admittedly wacky theories. I definately agree that it’s possible to prove just about anything if you’re that determined, especially since this particular movie fan seems to be able to tie most films or actors in with Lost when she puts her mind to it!

Agree that Locke is probably an even “better” candidate to link to Dharma than Jack, and I suspect Locke was definately involved with the previous goings-on on the island - perhaps in some kind of Colonel Kurtz-type position of power which went to his head and it all spiralled out of control? However, I don’t feel like I’ve ever got a good enough handle on Locke’s character to be able to develop this theory myself, so perhaps you’d like to run with it instead ...

Thanks for mentioning Juliet in the “eye opening” thang. I’m convinced it was Matthew Fox’s character in S2 opening, as well as in pilot (see my lengthy “Jack and Desmond switched identities” post a week or so back). You might want to check out the same post for my suggestion for the flashforward (I agree that Kate and Jack both looked younger!); how the Jack-a-like in 2.24 could tie in; and for my take on the pushing the button task (ie. intended to keep Desmond safely in the hatch whilst Jack escaped). I can’t decide if Ben did push the button or not because at the moment, we have no way of knowing if not pushing the button triggered the magnetic anomally or turning the failsafe key did it instead. Desmond’s memories don’t show us Kelvin turning the key before leaving the hatch for the last time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t. As for the S1 ending, are you thinking of observations made at the time that Tom looked like an older Sawyer, and the blond woman looked like Karen DeGroot?

Your Locke/Ben link is interesting. I have a feeling that The Purge could’ve been a result of Ben’s jealousy towards something related to Locke like a child or grandchild. I only say this because I wonder if Ben moved into Jack’s house on the island following the Purge, and I suspect Locke could be Jack’s father. VERY interested in the Jin link you’ve suggested as well, and would like to hear more.

And I absolutely agree that there’s probably alot more to Sayid and Hurley than currently meets the eye. In fact, I reckon their true backstories will knock our socks off and provide some of the most interesting revelations yet!

H x

In the meantime, what’s your take on Danielle? I’m trying to work out her character and motivations but it’s a bit hard since I can’t decide whether she’s good or bad. Any suggestions?
Not regarding goodness or badness. But until Bakunin equaled or surpassed her, she was probably the most obviously, even clumsily faking character on the show.

Remember the fortune teller Hugo's father took him to to get rid of the curse? She's the model. Make Rousseau a better offer and she'll drop her accent and say it was all fake. Lost does that a lot, presenting in miniature a version of the main plot. Actually, they keep doing it -- she wasn't the 1st phony fortune teller on the show. That's why I find it so funny so few others have expressed my theory, because I get the impression that the makers of Lost have been practically beating us over the head with it.

Robert

Thanks for that, doc, and I tend to agree with you there. I definately think that once you get the idea clear in your head that we’re not exactly being presented with the truth (at least not in the way we think, anyway), then it does seem obvious that the makers have been beating us over the head with the clues all the time!

Rousseau does seem stereotypically fake, doesn’t she? Just like Mikhail has the archetypal villain appearance, complete with Russian accent and scars! I actually think they’re siblings and he’s adopted a fake Russian persona to reflect the previous revolutionary events on the island (ie. The Purge, or the initial uprising which led to a later purging of the trouble-makers). Although I still think Mikhail helped Jack to get back to the island for his redemptive mission (ie. he’s the good twin to her bad one).

As for Rousseau, I’m actually starting to wonder whether she could be Jacob! We all know the real-life Rousseau’s Social Contract theory inspired the French Revolution, but a specific period during that Revolution when aristocrats were sent to the guillotine was known as The Terror, and was led by Robespierre who was a Jacobin. Plus I initially assumed Jack was Jacob because Jack is a derivative from the French for Jacob - but Jack would’ve still been derived from Jacob if he’d been “led to the dark side” by his “evil” wife! So maybe I wrongly assumed that the “man was wearing the trousers” in this situation, not least because most flashbacks tend to focus on father issues. But the mirror image of a father is the mother - and mother-issues can be just as destructive if not more so. In fact, Isobel could be a clue to this since the actress played Joan Crawford’s victimised daughter in Mommy Dearest - which could explain her startlingly wooden performance on Lost if it was a nod to the infamous coathanger scene!

Also, I’m wondering if Locke and Jack’s constant “Don’t tell me what to do!” wrangles were actually an oblique reference to “Dr No” (as in, “Dr, no!”), and therefore a clue related to its iconic Bond Girl in a bikini, Ursula Andress. Especially since Andress also starred in “She” (as in “she who must be obeyed”), which featured a flame of eternal youth and therefore could explain brother Mikhail being stationed in the Flame and being apparently indestructable! And Andress is Swiss and I still reckon Rousseau has some kind of Swiss connection. Partly because it would explain evil Paik's Rolex watches. And it could explain why there’s a Bernard because St.Bernard sheepdogs traditionally rescue victims stranded in the Swiss Alps (not that I think Bernard is the real Bernard, actually). Also, Jack remembers being separated from a dark-haired Italian woman, and Italian is spoken in Switzerland along with the French and German we’ve already heard Rousseau using.

It’s possible that Rousseau’s real surname is Razdinsky and that she is therefore Polish and also possibly Jewish. Which could explain certain references to Roman Polanski on the show because he's a Polish Jew. So I initially assumed Rousseau's family fled to Switzerland to escape the Holocaust, and she later set up Dharma island in an attempt to eradicate the prejudices which had murdered so many of her people. But Hurley’s memories of his “cursed lottery millions” seems to imply that the island funding was also somehow cursed. So the “cursed Swiss” angle could imply that Rousseau’s family were Jewish bankers who fled to Switzerland and then exploited the Holocaust by requisitioning the Jewish millions deposited with them for safe-keeping, but which remained unclaimed afterwards. Which could tie in with MF’s Sawyer audition since it mentions a scam involving conning Holocaust survivors out of money. Alternatively, Rousseau’s parents were Nazi scientists originally brought over to the States as part of the CIA’s real-life Operation PAPERCLIP following the war. Which could explain subtle “Marathon Man” homage in MF’s L’Oreal ad; and the implication that Hurley and Paulo aren’t “Boys from Brazil”; plus the inclusion of “Bernard the dentist” since the villain in aforementioned movie was former dentist in Nazi concentration camp. So many clues - so many different ways to read them!

I’m also considering whether Rousseau’s real name could be Julie. If I’m right and Christian does represent pre-pilot Jack, then this would make her “Julie de Christian”. Which is similar to Julie Christie, the actress who starred in Dr Zhivago so we have another Russian Revolution parallel. And Julie or “Jules” could be represented as the diamonds (or jewels) in the Exposé episode - especially since Nikki wore a diamond-studded bikini whilst dancing round a pole, and I suspect Rousseau is a Polish Jew who was responsible for explosive (ie. atomic as in Bikini Atol) events on the island previously. The bikini could be another nod to Ursula Andress' Bond Girl attire, and the diamonds also connect to the plotline of Marathon Man. The Russian Revolution and atomic parallels could explain the Chernobyl-like cemented-up areas of the Swan, especially since I think Mikhail was actually Kelvin as depicted in Desmond’s distorted memory.

Juliet’s psuedonym could’ve been inspired by her nemesis because Julie+T could be a reference to Julie T.Wallace who starred in British tv version of Life & Loves of a She Devil (later remade as She-Devil, starring Meryl Streep). In other words, Juliet wanted some way of remembering the She-Devil responsible for her being held prisoner on the island. Which would definately make sense because I think Juliet’s memories of “ex-husband” Edmund Burke actually relate to Jack being stolen away from her by Rousseau. If only because Burke’s new girlfriend is called Sherry and “cheri” is French for “Darling” (another Julie Christie movie, b.t.w!). I reckon Jack and Juliet devised the original idealistic Dharma theory whilst at university together (probably Berkley, rather than the University of Michigan mentioned in Swan Orientation film or Columbia as mentioned in his background file), but that Jack and Rousseau later exploited it for more sinister and profitable uses. I doubt Juliet is a fertility doctor, but reckon she's some kind of feminist intellectual or journalist.

The hidden female identity of "Jacob" could be hinted at by Isaac of Uluru and by Claire’s aunt Lindsey (as in Australian Lindy Chamberlain’s “that dingo’s got my baby!”), since both are references to Alice Springs which also featured in Priscilla Queen of the Desert’s climactic scenes. Which would mean I might not’ve been that far off when I initially wondered whether any references to Jack’s Thailand experiences could be signalling a ladyboy nestling somewhere in the cast! NOT that I’m saying Rousseau’s a man, just that she’s got balls!

Hmmm. Lots to ponder on here. What do you think - reckon I could be on the right track here?
100%
Which could explain subtle “Marathon Man” homage in MF’s L’Oreal ad; and the implication that Hurley and Paulo aren’t “Boys from Brazil”;

Erm, did I forget to mention that I reckon Hurley and Paulo are twins?!

H x

wow hildy, interesting and again meticulous in your analysis....IMO the biggest problem is that the time constraint----we are down to 48 episodes.....we are MORE than half way done.....there just might not be enough time to reveal....

think of any 2 charactors and you can 'find a scene' where they interacted.....just using locke:

locke/claire- many times, the cradle
locke/kate- too many to even name one
locke/jack- come on now
locke/sayid- many, trip to plane and the reveal that locke hit sayid
locke/charlie- the heroin
locke/michael- arguement with walt
locke/walt- many/backgammon
locke/hurley- after ekos death....he calls him hugo, perhaps not 'many' but some
locke/sawyer- many
locke/desmond- many
locke/benry- many

locke/sun- i cant remember a scecific scene, but i know there has been some, just cant put my fingers on it.

so is it just that jin does not speak english? well, he does go camping wtih hurley, charlie, desmond, he has interacted with hurley many times, he had the issues with michael, then the raft with michael, walt, and sawyer.....he deliverred claires baby and kate was there....he has asked for 'doctor' and been in scenes with jack....no BENRY scenes (jin was not in hatch---another clue)....rose/bernard dont count, but he is on the beach with bernard at end of season 3, thus with sayid who originally handcuffed him.....so once again there is a big hole with JIN and LOCKE-----to me that means there is something behind the scenes going on there......and remember if anyone is close to autonomous as locke on the island, it is JIN<----fishing alone, etc.

Hey Jojoro - you’re right about the limited time constraints for revealing Lost’s ultimate secret, but I don’t really think it’s a problem. Because I think the entire show has been telling us what happened previously without our being aware of it - kind of like the ultimate form of deja-vu, and disguised in much the same way as the losties flashback memories show a disguised version of their pasts. Once we’re given that “key”, it’ll become apparent that flashback characters represent other characters, and flashback situations actually represent other previous on-island events. For example, I’m convinced the entire Exposé episode is a complex allegory showing what happened on the island before the pilot episode. So once we’re made aware of this (possible!) fact, they wouldn’t need to go back and show us what happened previously because we’d suddenly realise that we’d seen it already. Which would tie in with the infamously discredited Purgatory theory, because the losties could actually be unwittingly re-experiencing past events and will continue to do so until they rectify past mistakes (just like certain characters have died once they resolve their “issues”). Kind of like the ultimate case of learning from past mistakes - just like Kate warned Sawyer not to touch the doll marking one of Rousseau’s traps because she’d learnt from past experience that it could result in getting “caught in a net”. Or like Sawyer quickly learning that pressing the cage button three times could result in electrocution!

So this idea of “deja vu” and learning from past mistakes could mean that Desmond’s premonitions are actually a result of his “foreseeing” incidents which his twin brother Jack experienced previously. One very key example could be the Joanna/Boone drowning incident and Des’ similar rescue of Claire/Charlie. Des could’ve been aware Claire was drowning because a woman drowned because of Jack previously. Des could’ve wrongly assumed Charlie would’ve drowned if he’d attempted to rescue her because Charlie was the one who told Jack that he didn’t swim in the first incident. We now know that Charlie can swim so Jack (and therefore Des too) probably misinterpreted Charlie’s original statement and assumed the pocket-popstar would drown if he attempted to save the victim - unaware that Charlie probably just didn’t want to risk getting his stash wet (especially since his drug addiction hadn’t been revealed to Jack at that point). So in a way, Desmond rectified his brother’s previous mistake because he was able to save the girl and the boy, whereas Jack only saved the boy.

It’s also interesting to note that both Boone and Charlie have subseqeuently died - so Des’ premonitions of Charlie’s “inevitable” death could’ve been a result of misinterpreting Jack’s inability to save Boone later. Which could imply that Desmond and Charlie are intrinsically linked because I suspect Jack and Boone were actually father and son. Charlie’s obviously too old to be Des’ son but he could be his son-in-law - especially if Claire is his daughter and was previously Charlie’s wife as I also suspect. Which tragically means that both brothers killed their own “sons” (ie. I still think Jack isn’t a real surgeon and that’s why he was unable to save Boone); and Charlie died unaware that his beloved Claire and Aaron were actually his wife and child. Sob.

Great analysis of the Locke and Jin situation, especially the shared autonomy angle! There is a Locke/Sun scene too, when he comforts her whilst she’s looking for her lost wedding ring in her garden. Jin’s not-speaking-English is suspicious to me. Partly because certain characters like Jack, Michael and Hurley do seem to understand what he’s saying at certain points. And I wonder if Jin’s post-pilot persona was contrived specifically to hinder communication with his fellow losties for some reason (ie. is “Kwon” an anagram of “know”?). Interesting that Hurley witnesses him speaking English in a dream. Good catch on no scenes between Jin and Benry. In fact, I wonder if its also relevant that Jack has never interracted with Mikhail - especially since I suspect Mikhail helped Jack return to the island for the pilot epi. So maybe we need to start looking at what other characters haven’t interacted. Finally, I wonder if it’s relevant that Jack wore a key around his neck and Locke is called ... well, Locke! Do the lock and key really go together?

H x

I love this!

Hey Jojoro - you’re right about the limited time constraints for revealing Lost’s ultimate secret, but I don’t really think it’s a problem. Because I think the entire show has been telling us what happened previously without our being aware of it
I think we can be given the inside info a lot faster than the events took to act out even without such priming. Consider the meeting we were shown in which Benry & Juliet conferred about what to do after she was to be "left behind"; it took much less time than it had taken to act it out. (Of course I don't believe this "denouement" was a completely true one to us; I think Claire had no remote controlled implant, but simply popped a blood squib in her mouth and acted sick at the right time, and that Kate knew what was going on with Juliet, but that's neither here nor there in terms of rapidity of explanation.) But I do think or at least hope that by the end the audience will have been so primed by example that we'll "get it" even faster.

- kind of like the ultimate form of deja-vu, and disguised in much the same way as the losties flashback memories show a disguised version of their pasts.
Wherein we differ is that I think the flashbacks also represent events literally. We haven't gotten to see key details that disguise the meaning of the flashbacks to us, but I don't think they're (mostly) false memories or exclusively metaphoric.

Once we’re given that “key”, it’ll become apparent that flashback characters represent other characters, and flashback situations actually represent other previous on-island events. For example, I’m convinced the entire Exposé episode is a complex allegory showing what happened on the island before the pilot episode.
I'm convinced it's an allegory for post-pilot events. However, because "Lost does everything [at least] twice", I'll now be alert to the possibility that it also represents pre-pilot events.

So the viewers who think there's time looping in Lost are right, just not literally, only metaphorically. Analogous events have been and continue to be recurring over time, not literally the same events. (Well, except that I think things have been literally acted out in advance for Desmond.)

just like Kate warned Sawyer not to touch the doll marking one of Rousseau’s traps because she’d learnt from past experience that it could result in getting “caught in a net”. Or like Sawyer quickly learning that pressing the cage button three times could result in electrocution!
Wow, I never thought of the metaphoric possibilities of those visuals, thanks! It's only recently that I caught on to Desmond's "rat trap" line to Penny. The makers of Lost even perseverated on the "getting caught in a net" line via the gag about Sawyer's taking it as a euphemism; they were saying to us, be alert for a non-literal meaning, and it shot right past me while I laughed at the surface joke. The cage button probably refers to going to the well too often (metaphorically) and eventually getting an untoward result, but the functioning of the button together with the other apparatus probably points to success when things are properly set up, and failure (as the attempt to shock Benry) when such a ruse is discovered. And there I was thinking the last was merely a cheap allusion to a passage in Watchmen!

Sometimes Lost makes the analogies more blatant than others. "Exposé" I thought was heavy-handed, deliberately so and hence hilarious. Another example was Locke's on-island sweat lodge "vision", which presented keys to the show in the style of Twin Peaks. I haven't "read" most of it yet, but Boone's line therein about Desmond's "helping himself" combined with Desmond's being the one in a later episode to deliver the "rat trap" line to Penny (rather than, say, vice versa) is strongly suggestive.

Robert

i guess jack/michail is one, but mikhail has not interacted with claire either, and he has only been around for half a season.

this MIGHT tie in with the obvious clues of libby dying right before desmonds return.....kelvin dying right before sayid and the losties arrive, locke never seeing sayids picture of nadia....however, we DO have the one case of jack/desmond and hurley 'knew' that he had seen libby before, just could not put his finger on it....

anyway to take KATE: been in a seen with everyone

JACK: mickail is the only one

SAYID: everyone

HURLEY: everyone

CLAIRE: no benry til finale...everyone else however except michail as mentioned, and her medical hatch story puts her in contact with at least 6-8 others

CHARLIE: everyone

SUN: everyone

SAWYER: everyone except michail


lastly, another oddity in the jin/benry saga...benry appears to everyone in the finale except the 3 at the beach (bernard, jin, sayid----hurly, sawyer, juliette all familiar with him)....again it is JIN who does not 'know' him....bernard is difficult to put in the same category as he has not been in the same number of scenes and at this point is 'minor' vs. a 'major' charactor......and it was always odd at the end of season 1 how michael and sawyer are together, yet JIN is just gone.....no sound from him, no nothing, but he conveniently shows up on the beach for the tailies to find (and conveniently escapes to find sawyer and michael on same beach).

i dont know what to make of it, but it seems odd to me and i definately think there is more to this.....is it HUGE? NO, i highly doubt it, but it might fit somewhere in someones existing theory.


it somewhat runs parallel to my overall line of thnking that there are 2 major factions on the island competing against each other, and therefore whenever 'people go into the jungle on a mission' there would be AT LEAST one member from each side (to keep tabs on what happened)......kate ALWAYS going is an obvious case of somone playing this role.

It always bothered me too how the second Jin escapes from the tailies is the second Michael and Sawyer come up on the same beach, and Jin runs to that beach screaming to them, before he can even see them it seems. I don't know what it means, if anything, but yes, that scene definitely stood out to me

Hey guys - my last post before I have to go AWOL for a bit. Which is incredibly lousy timing because I think we’re finally starting to get to the bottom of the Lost enigma, dammit!

First off, still on the subject of Charlie’s death. I’m wondering if characters become aware of who they really are in the final moments of life - kind of like “seeing the light” or having a “eureka!” moment. If I’m right, this could mean that “not Penny’s boat” refers more to Charlie suddenly being aware of the fakeness of the boat owners’ name, rather than the occupants on that boat. In other words, the boat belongs to Penny but that isn’t her real name - and maybe she’s not so friendly!

Also, I’ve been listening to my i-pod alot recently and some of my fave tracks almost sound like they could be a soundtrack to Lost and its central characters. For example, I think “Geronimo Jackson” could be a reference to a little known (but absolutely brilliant!) 60s folk singer called Jackson C.Frank. And it wouldn’t surprise me if The Door’s “The End” is played on Lost somewhere along the line, for numerous reasons. (Erm, can you tell I like hippy music?!). Which makes me wonder if the “hypnotic prompt” angle I’ve been banging on about is actually on the right track. Perhaps everyone is released from “the spell” when they hear a specific song which has a particular relevance to them - perhaps even something specifically from the “hippy” era to explain all those psychedelic references on the show. Which could tie in with my suggestion that Charlie “saw the light” since he keyed in the opening bars to Good Vibrations, then prevented Desmond making contact with Penny by locking himself in the room (even tho he could’ve locked the door from the other side to keep the water in), then wrote the “not Penny’s boat” note before he died. It’s worth noting that the same song is played over the run-up to Vanilla Sky’s eventual “big reveal”; and it allegedly inspired Beatles song “A Day In the Life”; plus Charlie has a tattoo featuring lyrics from another Beatles song. This potential music angle could also tie in with “The Artwork of Matthew Fox” on S1 dvd-extras because it includes a pic of everyone listening to their i-pods - and it could explain why Naomi's satellite phone looks suspiciously like the new i-phone (ie. were both a clue?!) Plus music really does evoke strong memories so it could tie in with the idea of “our song”. Only glitch in this theory is that we’ve seen Jack tinkling the ivories, and Charlie playing his guitar - although you could argue that in both instances it was only vague bars rather than any identifiable song.

Waltisfuture has unearthed some fascinating new info related to Projects MKULTRA and MONARCH and posted it over on Lucidity’s fabby Sewing Kit thread - the colour-coded characters mentioned kind of reminded me of Cluedo, which is kinda apt considering Lost’s one big mystery and it had it’s own Ms Klugh! Anyway, I hope neither will mind if I post a link to it here too because it’s well worth a read:-

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1666884&postcount=1978

Finally, I think DrSuds is really not wrong when he says its “all a con!” - but I think it could be a far bigger one than any of us could’ve imagined (well, me at least!). In other words no plane crash, no island, no Dharma Initiative - eek! If I’m right (and I admit I could be so wrong it’s just not funny), it all ties in with movie references within the show, key items linked with certain characters (ie. like Charlie’s DriveShaft ring), and “the red sox winning the series”. I realise I’m probably a right old killjoy not telling you exactly what I think it’s all about right now, but the potential explanation only struck me this afternoon and I need to think it over some more to see if it really is a viable possibility. So see what you can come up with to explain why it might be a Big Con and I promise I’ll post my own theory (if it is viable) when I return.

Au revoir (until early November, hopefully).

H x

Interesting ~ 'not Penny' ...I was reading Hume recently and reminded some swans are black. The ones found in Austrailia.

T.C. Hildy - I look forward to reading you again.

Thanks Liplocked. Just a "not-so-quickie" before I go! Still trying to get my head around the possibility of this “all a majorly big con” suggestion which I tossed out there last time - maybe you can all have a go because it’s doing my head in!

a) Lost is “Stephen King territory” = Maine + land = mainland? Could also tie in with Sawyer calling Walt “Tattoo” from Fantasy Island (ie. it’s a fantasy that they’re even on an island). “Tattoo” also links to Jack - and could link to Kate because another Sawyer nickname is “Freckles” (ie. they’re tattooed on?!?!?!)

b) Adam & Eve skeletons = “fell” because of knowledge = apple = apple computers (actors’ i-pods and Naomi’s i-phone) = Silicon Valley = Valley of the Dolls (ie. dolls in caves) = run by women?!

c) Sharon Tate starred in original version of Valley of the Dolls - she was wife of Roman Polanski killed by Charles Manson cult members in the HelterSkelter murders; Veronica Hamel (ie. Margot Shephard) was in the Valley of the Dolls remake tv-version - I think in each version the character commits suicide by taking pills. Bette Midler played the book’s author Jacqueline Suzanne in biopic - Midler also played The Rose, so could explain Rose’s name or could explain Kate’s background (ie. The Rose was based on Janis Joplin, and Kate wears Janis Joplin tee-shirt when she kills Wayne). Which brings in the idea of drug-death rockstars (ie. also Mama Cass who sang song in S2 opening). So could also relate to Jim Morrison because he died of drug overdose too, and The Doors took their name from Aldous Huxley’s Doors of Perception. Val Kilmer played Morrison in Oliver Stone’s biopic - he went on to appear opposite Marlon Brando in Island of Dr.Moreau (referenced by Dominic Monaghan in dvd interviews), and replaced Michael Keaton as Batman (so could tie in with Matthew Fox, because Keaton was replaced by MF in the pilot - allegedly). Everything IS connected once you start looking, and it’s really mind boggling.

d) Vintage films referenced on the show include GWTW (via Christian’s reference to Carol Burnett show in White Rabbit) and Wizard of Oz - both came out in a “stellar” year 1939. It's also the year WW2 started, which could be relevant.

e) Same year produced The Women - all b&w except one technicolour fashion show scene (ie. could explain Ludicity’s colour-coded costume idea). All women cast, men are only referred to, directed by George Cukor who was famously known as a “women’s director” (dunno if any of this is relevant!). All props and animals female gendered including title shot of one character represented as Mary the little lamb - which could tie in with Kate possibly being a Shephard. And could explain why Vincent is played by a bitch! Could also be relevant that one character is played by Paulette Goddard who was married to Charlie Chaplin (ie. Charlie as a busker with religious past = Charlie Chaplin, the “little tramp”? Chaplin had brother Sidney, which could explain why Flight 815 left from Sydney Australia). Emphasis on “Jungle Red” nails which could explain “red sox”. The “villainess” who steals the heroine’s husband before losing him back to her again was played by Joan Crawford - Isabel actress played Crawford’s vengeful daughter Christina in Mommie Dearest (could be relevant that “Christina” misspelt is “Christian”!). All of which seems to suggest Lost is about mother issues rather than father issues.

f) Alot of the other film references on the show seem to tie in with the idea of “Method acting” - Marathon Man and Raging Bull hinted at in MF’s L’Oreal ad; Locke/Marlon Brando parallels (and got mega pay-packet for minute cameo as Superman’s dad); Charlie’s death scene echoes Gene Hackman’s lapsed priest death in Poseidon Adventure, infamous for Shelly Winters’ death-by-drowning scene (ie. also studied at Lee Strasberg); Nikki’s material girl with diamonds is probable Marilyn Monroe clue (ie. “Diamonds are a girls’ best friend” homage in Madonna Video and Moulin Rouge; Monroe was another Strasberg student; rumoured to have been killed for connection to President Kennedy; sang Happy Birthday to the president, and appeared in Some Like it Hot in diamond-spangled dresses); red cars in Locke and Ben f/b’s reminds me of red car James Dean was killed in. Which seems to suggest that the losties’ personas are the ultimate form of method acting - ie. they’ve been given fake backstories as their “motivation”. Which seems to suggest the “island” could be a studio backlot or even a commandeered amusement park. Perhaps “Smokey” is an electronic “Shephard” designed to keep everyone where they’re meant to be.

g) Still on movie idea - Lost features Others (ie. Bad) plus very attractive Losties (ie. The Beautiful). Bad & The Beautiful is famous b&w movie about the movie industry. Central character is villanous producer who ruins the other characters lives in the course of establishing a successful career for himself. Success first comes when he and director friend have to make a horror film about cat monsters - the costumes are so rubbish he decides not to use them, preferring to shoot entire film in near darkness instead because (paraphrased) “the most frightening thing is what you can’t see and only imagine you see”. Which could also explain alot of what’s happened on the island - not least Kate etc assuming pilot corpse was in the tree based on circumstantial evidence rather than identifying the face which was turned towards the viewers. Central actress in the movie was Lana Turner so could bring in the idea of murdered gangster husbands (Stompanata rumoured to have been killed by daughter, who was later abused by Turner’s subsequent husband), or suggestion of plastic surgery (ie. Guy Pearce’s cop in LA Confidential mistakes the “real” Turner for a prostitute made to look like her). Plastic surgery also ties in with my previous suggestion that Juliet’s pseudonym was a hint to her nemesis, the island’s She-Devil (that story about someone who has plastic surgery to turn herself into nemesis).

h) The trippy Dave LaChapelle ad on S2 dvds was shown on British tv in two versions. First had music by Portishead from Leeds = ad contains clues or “leads”? Second version had music by Cinematic Orchestra, which the group later used as the soundtrack to an amazing 1920s silent Russian modernist movie called Man With A Movie Camera. And Locke is shown conducting in the ad - so is he some kind of leader?

i) I think Charlie’s Driveshaft ring is a “Dorothy Stratten” clue (we’re told it relates to Dexter Stratton, but both are a DS and surnames are similar). She was murdered girlfriend of director Peter Bogdanovitch (ie. Kate poses as photographer Maggie, which seems to be a nod to Bogdanovitch’s Last Picture Show). Which seems to suggest Charlie could be Claire’s husband and Aaron’s father, but he’s bad not good (ie. Stratten killed by abusive ex partner).

j) Halliburton case also seems to represent someone in an abusive relationship. Halli+Burton = Halle Berry in Monster’s Ball = abused wife (ie. Ball & Chain). So someone related to that case was either the abuser or the abused. Or both. The Burton could tie in with Richard Burton or Elizabeth Taylor’s destructive relationship, or the idea of being married loads of times. Taylor also linked to Michael Jackson, so could tie in with idea of the island being an amusement park (ie. Jackson’s Neverland).

i) According to lostpedia, Henry Gale’s driving licence numbers relate to “Maupins” - probably a nod to Armistead Maupin who wrote Tales of the City, set in San Francisco. Characters include Michael “Mouse” Tolliver, Anna Madrigal (ie. anagram of “man and girl”, she was once a he!); and a black model called D’Orothea who barely escapes Jim Jones commune massacre. Which could mean Ms Klugh is the Dorothy the balloon occupants were trying to rescue and, erm, and someone related to that group has changed sexuality as part of their disguise (just like Vincent)!!! Maupin is mentioned in Zodiac movie, which features John Terry as the editor.

That’s all for now, folks! See what you can come up with using these wacky potential clues because I’m still struggling to make sense of them. But I think they’re pointing to something REALLY not being what it appears to be.

H x
100%
PS/ shockingly, it could also involve someone having an affair with their own mother to explain the eyes/vision angle (ie. Oedipus) and the presumed Manchurian Candidate references (ie. mother and son kiss in the movie versions but sleep together in the book apparently).

I’ve been catching up with the season 3 dvds, and something struck me which could tie in with my WISC theory. In the commentary to “Man Behind the Curtain”, it’s suggested that perhaps the bunnies have numbers on their backs to distinguish one seemingly identical animal from another. Which reminded me of my suggestion that Jack’s 5 tattoo was intended to distinguish him from his identical twin Desmond when he assumed his identity. Or am I just clutching at straws here?!

Still trying to work out the feasability of my previous hysterical suggestion that there’s “no island, no crash, no Dharma!”, to tie in with DrSuds’ controversial “it’s all fake!” theory. Hmmm, it’s a tricky one. I still reckon most of the losties were never on Flight 815, and that the explosion witnessed overhead was intended to alert the Others to the “survivors” planted on the beach. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dharma didn’t exist although I can’t think of any other explanation for all the evidence of its previous presence on the island - and there seem to be too many clues pointing to a CIA/MKULTRA-type project which went wrong to ignore. Only alternative I can think of is that “Dharma island” is an elaborate movie set for a film about an MKULTRA-type project, which is now being used to trick everyone into believing what they’re witnessing is real. But what would the purpose of that be?

If there is an island, I have a feeling that it’s somewhere in Hawaii. It would certainly be ironic considering we’re all aware the show is shot there, and it would explain the Hawaiian doll found en route to Naomi. If so, then I reckon “the island” could be somewhere in Maui. Partly because “Maui Wowee” is a potent form of marjuana so it would tie in with assorted druggie references on the show (ie. this is the ultimate trip?!) Plus Stephen King’s Firestarter refers to a covert government compound on Maiu. Also, Maui is known as the “Valley Isle” because of a large fertile valley between its two volcanoes - the Dharma children are being taught about volcanos when the “hostiles” attack; the commentary for this episode seems to imply that volcanoes will be important in the coming season; and Kate refers to the cockpit as being through the valley in the pilot episode.

However, I still like my idea that all the Stephen King references are pointing to “the island” being on the mainland (ie. King based in Maine, so a story heavily influenced by him is set on Maine-land). In which case, it could be in Mexico. A few possible clues to support this wacky idea:-

1) Grindhouse movie “Planet Terror” has several Lost connections including Naveen Andrews, Jeff Fahey and Cheech Marin (in fake “forthcoming attractions” trailer which precedes the main feature); plus it’s about zombies (ie. ties in with Lost’s infamous “Zombie season 7”!). But more importantly, it ends up in Mexico - the Mayan ruins near Tulum to be precise (I watched the movie with someone who’d just been there - talk about weird coincidence!). The Mexican/Mayan angle could tie in with Lost’s Valenzetti Equation since the Mayan Calender ends in 2012 and supposedly predicts the end of the world. Mayan ruins also link in with certain “ancient spacemen” theories so could explain Juliet’s jokey comment about the imminent arrival of aliens on the island.

B.t.w check out Tarantino’s Deathproof as well - I’m sure there’s a nod to the Fuselage in one shot of Kurt Russell. And someone else in that movie is rumoured to be making an appearance in forthcoming episodes of Lost (check out spoilerslost for more details). Definately seems to be a Lost-Tarantino parallel emerging here since Pulp Fiction was acknowledged when Sawyer was injected in the sternum, and Dan Pickett actor appeared in Kill Bill.

2) Continuing on from Planet Terror’s final shots of Tulum, according to wikipedia the area is noted for its eco-friendly boutique hotels featuring traditional rustic thatched roofs and no electricity - which kind of reminded me of Sawyers comment in Exodus Part 2 about why no-one had discovered the island for a resort, and of the losties’ beach settlement!

3) There’s a beach further up the Mexican coastline near Cancun called “Playa del Carmen”. Which could tie in with Hurley’s mother being called Carmen, and with any notable uses of the colour red (ie. carmine is the truest red).

4) Juliet told Jack she arrived on the island six days before 9/11. In the American calendar “9/11” is 11th September, but in the English calender “9.11” is 9th November - so Juliet’s comment could actually be pointing to 3rd November, especially if her (possibly!) fake memories were contrived by a Brit. In which case it could be a clue to Mexico’s Day of the Dead festivities which take place over a three day period ending on 3rd November. Shrines are erected to honour dead oves ones, featuring food offerings (Dharma food drops?), candles (Wickman etc?), photos, and crosses made out of salt (salt surrounding Jacob's shack, and the "?" marking the site of the Pearl?).Which means that the losties could be on the island to (unwittingly?) honour or avenge the death or destruction of someone or something there previously.

5) The Mayan ruins at Tulum overlook the Caribbean sea, and we’ve had a couple of references to the Caribbean on Lost - Sawyer singing Bob Marley’s Redemption Song on the raft; the rasta-coloured logo on Jack’s flashforward vest when he and Marc Silverman are trying on their suits for Jack’s forthcoming wedding; and Hurley’s comment to Sayid about “putting the lime in the coconut”, as a reference to a Caribbean-themed song by Harry Nilssen. Add lime to Ana-Lucia’s tequila and you get Mexico’s famous Margharitas! And don’t forget that Kate told her hubby that she’d make him tacos.

6) Hurley’s dad is played by Mexican actor Cheech Marin. And we’ve had Hurley’s golf tournament. So both could be a clue that Lost is set somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico.

7) Matthew Fox’s forthcoming movie Vantage Point is set in Mexico City, and is about an assassination attempt. Which is weird, considering I’ve been suggesting that Jack is on the island to carry out an assassination! (B.t.w the trailer looks great - check it out on youtube).

8) Harold Perrinau played Mercutio in Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo+Juliet which was set in and shot on location in Mexico City. Apart from the fact that there seem to be Romeo & Juliet parallels emerging on Lost (ie. I reckon someone witnessed and misinterpreted Jack’s fake suicide in the Swan with tragic results; plus we have a Juliet), it’s worth noting that Luhrmann’s Moulin Rouge has also been referenced on the show in Expose (ie. stolen diamonds = “diamonds are a girl’s best friend” routine; plus Paulo actor appeared opposite Nicole Kidman in Luhrmann’s Moulin Rouge-inspired ad for Chanel). And both movies are part of the director’s “Red Curtain” trilogy, designed to blur the boundries between reality and artifice - just like Lost!

9) Countless references to the Beatles, mostly via Charlie. And we’ve had the Dharma VW van. VW Beetles continued to be produced in Mexico long after production had ceased elsewhere in the world - my mate tells me that battered old Beetles are everywhere in Mexico.

It’s just a suggestion, but let me know what you think ...
H x

I am unaware of any reference to "9/11" by Juliet or anyone else.

halfdozen
I'm totally jumping in here because I've lost track a bit of the thread (sorry, Hildy. I will get back on board at some point. Promise.), but the Juliet + 9/11 connection is that the date she said the number of days she had been on the Island takes us back to 9/11 - or, actually, a day or possibly two before, I think, depending on calculations.

Hey Luc: thanks for jumping in there, and no worries for losing track of this thread. It does seem to be stumbling along a bit in this l-o-n-g hiatus but hopefully the new season will get things back on track. Always good to see you around here, though, and In the meantime congrats on the new Sewing Kit 2 thread.

Halfdozen: Juliet didn’t refer directly to 9-11. But in “Not in Portland” she tells Jack that she’s been on the island for 3 years, 2 months and 28 days. “Current” events on the island are supposedly taking place in 2004 so, according to lostpedia’s timeline page, this means that she arrived there on 5th September, 2001 - or 6 days before 9-11.

However, I’m not sure on-island events are taking place in 2004 as alleged - I still think they’re taking place in 2007/2008. (In fact I suspect the events shown in the pilot actually started today, November 5th 2007. Which would mean that when the show resumes next year, it’d be happening in real “real-time”.) So I tried to find out some other relevance for the date Juliet mentioned for her arrival - Mexico’s Day of the Dead festivities draw to a close on 3rd November, or six days before 9th November which is written as 9.11 in the British calendar.

By the way, it’s worth noting that Juliet’s “six days before 9-11” arrival date is just one of many “six discrepancies/differences” in people’s recollections of the past (I’ll try to put together a list to post next time). Which seems to signal the importance of something related to the number 6. Possibly a 6th hatch and the sinister events which took place there previously?

H x

Definately seems to be a Lost-Tarantino parallel emerging here since Pulp Fiction was acknowledged when Sawyer was injected in the sternum, and Dan Pickett actor appeared in Kill Bill.
Damon did tell me he enjoyed Kill Bill. From what I've heard, it's the sort of movie that movie buffs might like, so his father might've gone for it too. Like the Shanghai movies and like The Dreamers, except that I warned Damon off that one (stinker IMO).

I love the cx you draw, including even the Golf of Mexico, and even if I don't believe they're all intended.

Robert

I love the cx you draw, including even the Golf of Mexico, and even if I don't believe they're all intended.

Thanks, Robert. I must admit I'm probably way off track with the whole Mexico thang but the Lost parallels did seem too good to be true when I watched the Grindhouse double-bill recently. Let's just put it down to an over-zealous movie-fan spotting Lost connections in just about everything she watches these days!
100%
Me again! Something just struck me which could strengthen my admittedly tenuous “it’s set in Mexico!” theory - the drug angle. My mate who’s been to Mexico tells me that drug trafficking continues to be a major problem there (ie. en route from Columbia etc to the States), with drugs washed up onto the beach at periodic intervals, a recent plane crash which revealed one of the largest hauls of cocaine ever, and regular army-operated road blocks checking for illicit transportation of narcotics including heroin. And allegedly there’s a hotel in the Tulum region which was originally built by Columbian drug lord Pablo Escobar. All of which could tie in with the so-called Nigerian drug plane on the island which I seriously doubt really flew there all the way from Nigeria.

Hey guys - sorry I haven’t been posting for a while. I have been keeping an eye on the forum but haven’t had much to add to any of the discussions since my own theorising has kind of ground to a halt in this interminable hiatus! But in the meantime, TabbyRasa has tracked down this website with loads of MKULTRA-related stuff which could prove relevant to my theory here that Lost is about a similar type of mind control research project ...

http://educate-yourself.org/mc/

B.t.w I’ve read that Lost returns to US screens 31st January - does anyone know when Season 4 starts in the UK?

H x

Nice to "see" you again, Hildy!

Cheers m’dear! And I’m loving the new piccy in your sig - although I do kinda miss the costumed bloke in the old one! I’m off for my Christmas hols tomorrow but hope to be theorizing with you again in 2008.

Happy holidays!

H x

In One Of Us, Juliet tells Goodwin that "tomorrow" marks 3 Years to the day since she arrived on the Island. The next day, Ben takes her to The Flame after 815 breaks up overhead, where she sees the video of her sister and nephew, and the Newspaper stating it's 9-22-2004, which Ben states is "today's date."

Either Juliet believes she came to the Island on 9-22-2001, or she knows that time is "funny" on the Island and is measuring it differently than we do.

Desmond and Locke also agree that the plane crashed on 9-22-2004 in Live Together, Die Alone.

Excellent theory there Hildy!

This twist and possible plotline is very interesting. Is it just me or does this give it a comic book feel? In all the good aspect of the genre. One last thought. Any posibility there could be more than just Jack?

I hope this plays out actually. I wouldnt be dissapointed at all.

Eric.

LOOKING FORWARD TO S4

I realise that this post will probably get lost amid all the excitement of tonight’s season opener, but I thought I’d better get this thread up and going again now that S4 is on us at long last. So here’s a recap of my “pilot occured after the flashforward” theory, together with some new observations ...

1) THE FLASHFORWARDS:

Like Catch-22, I suspect that Lost actually started in the middle of the story. Until we know what actually happened before “the crash”, we have no way of working out what this is all about!

I suggest that the pilot episode showed “flashforward-Jack’s” eventual success in getting back to the island. In other words, the so-called flashforward happened before the pilot events, and the entire on-island story up to this point has been the actual flashforward to what occured post-2007. Note that this theory doesn’t contradict TPTB’s acknowledgement that TTLG introduced the flashforward concept.

I also suggest that forthcoming so-called “flashforwards” will now start to piece together the pre-pilot story, even if it’s not necessarily clear at first. We’ll assume the losties will be trying to get back to the island after the rescuers arrived in TTLG - but they’ll actually be organising events which culminated in the pilot episode. We’ll assume they want to return to rectify what’s happened on the island since the pilot episode - but they actually want to return to rectify what happened to them before then, either as Dharma’s victims or instigators. I suspect it revolves around a covert mind control research programme which went disasterously wrong, if only because countless parallels with the CIA’s Project MKULTRA and its rumoured involvement with Jonestown are just too strong to ignore.

If I’m right on this, it means everyone had to have had their memories manipulated in some way - otherwise, why would Jack and Kate recognize each other in the “flashforward” but not afterwards in the pilot episode? And why would they now be unaware they’d returned to wreak revenge?

I suggest that everyone was given new identities for their island missions, complete with psuedonyms and bogus backstories which would be convincing to everyone including themselves. In other words, they honestly believe they’re the people they allege themselves to be. I suggest that these new identities were provided under hypnosis and have been maintained via drugged food and/or water, and inaudible prompts (like a dog whistle) from Rousseau’s “distress signal”. Note that Jack’s shocking final scene with Kate only occured AFTER the distress signal had been turned off, which suggests it could be the first genuine off-island memory we’ve witnessed so far.

One key way of proving this theory would be if a character who has already died turns up in a “flashforward” (my guess would be Charlie, since he was so popular); or someone will die after they’ve appeared in a so-called flashforward.

TTLG’s “flashforward” was set and aired in 2007. And I suspect that all forthcoming “flashforwards” will similarly occur in real time (ie. S4 flashforwards will be set and aired in 2008, S5 in 2009 etc), so that by the time the show ends in 2010, events on the island will also be taking place in 2010. If I’m right this would, in effect, explain the time-travelling clues because WE would’ve been doing the time-travelling by watching something supposedly set in 2004 which had actually been taking place years from then.

Potential clues to support this new “timeline will end in 2010” theory are the prevelance of “6-related” elements within the show, since they could be hinting that events on the island started six years later than we’ve been led to believe - or even that Lost was always destined to finish after 6 seasons. The presumed clues include the Oceanic SIX; countless continuity “errors” pointing to “6 discrepancies” (my fave is Locke telling co-workers that double amputee Norman Croucher scaled Mount Everest when he actually climbed the world’s SIXTH highest mountain!); Jack’s pivotal vision of Christian, subsequent discovery of the caves, and key “Live Together Die Alone” speech all occuring on Day SIX; Jack’s “5 tattoo” story detailing the day he became a “proper surgeon” when he operated on a girl SIX years younger than him; and the lockdown map pointing to the importance of a SIXTH hatch (ie. when read clockwise, the seventh hatch is crossed out as if to draw attention to the importance of the preceding one).

2) THE FLASHBACKS:

Whilst I propose that the flashbacks are “false memories” designed to provide credible backstories, I still think they’re grounded in the truth even if that truth is now heavily disguised. I also think many elements within these “false memories” are subconscious clues as to what everyone’s doing on the island - for example, Kate’s toy plane from Dallas could signify this involves an assassination attempt (I still reckon Jack was the assassin although it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s also someone else’s target). It’s also possible that many flashback-only characters actually represent other key on-island characters, including Christian (pre-pilot Jack); Diane Austen (Kate); Nadia (Ms Klugh); Kelvin (Mikhail); Horace Goodspeed (Sayid); Olivia (Shannon); and Sayid’s CIA agent (Rose). And I’m now wondering whether certain flashbacks involving Locke actually relate more to Jack, since Jack’s post-crash wound corresponds with Locke’s post-operative scar.

The nearest analogies I can think of to explain this complicated theory better are dreams and amnesia. A dream can depict subconscious emotions or memories in a distorted way - so perhaps Locke’s “memory” of being paralysed actually relates more to his having felt powerless in a past sitation (perhaps during The Purge?) And amnesia can make it difficult to consciously access memories even if they’re retained deep in your subconscious. For example, if you’d been in a car crash which resulted in amnesia, you might not remember the event but you could still feel dinstinctly uneasy if you passed the crash site. Which could explain Jack’s reticence to enter the Swan Hatch.

3) REAL CHARACTER CONNECTIONS:

I think it’s highly likely that ALL the central losties either knew each other or were related or were directly connected in some way prior to “the crash”. I’m still working on what all those connections are (it’s a large group and there’s three seasons’ of clues to decipher!). But I definately think that Jack and Desmond were brothers who switched places so that one could escape the island. Out of all my wacky theories, this is the one I’m most willing to stand by until the bitter end.

A few new character connection theories to hurl at you - I’ll keep the specific “evidence” to a minimum (otherwise I’ll be here all night!) although I can post it later if you’re interested. First off, Sawyer. I reckon he could be a cop (the mysterious “one of us is a cop” referred to in Dave LaChapelle’s trippy S1 promo, methinks). I also suspect he could be related to Tom and Juliet, who were possibly represented as Mike and Jan in Locke’s Eureka flashback. Hmmm, we shall see ...

Now Ms Klugh. I reckon it’s very possible that some of the Losties were there to rescue her. Henry Gale’s balloon seems to imply she could be the show’s “Dorothy” although you need to be familiar with Armistead Maupin’s Tales of the City books to see the possible connection implied by the numbers on Gale’s driving licence. They feature a central character called D’Or who was caught up with in the Jonestown massacre, so Walt’s surname could be a clue that he’s “D’Or’s son”. I’ll leave you to work out why the pilot episode implied Kate was the show’s Dorothy - but I think it relates to Rose.

4) DHARMA SHARK:

Finally, back to where this thead started. I still reckon the Dharma Shark was a metaphor for Jack and his own “Dharma logo” tattoo, which I suspect is only truly legible when viewed in a mirror and relates to Jack and Des being “mirror images” of each other.

As for “the crash”, what Dharma was really up to (in detail), and who is Jacob - please re-read this thread. I think we’ve all put forward some amazing theories here over the past months and I’m sticking by my own suggestions until they’re proven wrong on the show. Which will probably be any day now!

Enjoy the season opener - I’ll be back once it’s aired here on Sunday.

H x

According to 2.19.08 podcast (
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/February_19%2C_2008), Sayid in the outside world was meant to be somewhat like Jason Bourne character from the Bourne Identity. Which kind of reminded me of this post I made here back in September ...


THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM = POSSIBLE JACK PARALLELS?!

Have slightly revised my initial theory that Jack is a Dharma mole on a secret if unwitting mission that could seriously harm the losties. I saw The Bourne Ultimatum yesterday and it seemed to throw up some interesting possible parallels with Jack’s story. The entire Bourne trilogy is based on the premise that the hero (“good”) had a hidden previous identity (“bad”), and follows his attempts to uncover the disconcerting truth. Apologies to anyone who hasn’t seen the latest film yet, but it’s eventually revealed that military man David Webb had volunteered for a mind-control programme which turned him into CIA assasin Jason Bourne. I now think this is kind of what Jack is all about too. Any badness hidden in his identity relates to what he was previously trained to become - NOT what he is now (phew!)


Also, apparently some people on the ‘lage are drawing comparisons between Daniel and Charlotte’s card games with the Manchurian Candidate.

Hnmm, are we slowly starting to get proof that my WiSC mind manipulation theory is close to the truth?

H x

According to 2.19.08 podcast (
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/February_19%2C_2008), Sayid in the outside world was meant to be somewhat like Jason Bourne character from the Bourne Identity. Which kind of reminded me of this post I made here back in September ...



Also, apparently some people on the ‘lage are drawing comparisons between Daniel and Charlotte’s card games with the Manchurian Candidate.

Hnmm, are we slowly starting to get proof that my WiSC mind manipulation theory is close to the truth?

H x

Oh we are going to see alot more comparisons as they are slowy evolving this theory. The next thing to watch for is C.S. Lewis Charollets character. C.S. Lewis was a member of the Golden dawn Society. Pay close attention to his wrtings, works ect...

Thanks, Coca-Cola 1.Tell me more about Charollets and the Golden Dawn Society.

Talking of C.S.Lewis, those arctic scenes at the end of S2 kind of reminded me of “The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe”.

B.t.w Charlotte Lewis is also the name of a model-turned-actress who appeared in Roman Polanski’s 80s dud, Pirates. Dunno if this could be relevant but we have had rather a few subtle nods to Mr Polanski along the way. And alot of the actors playing central Losties (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Boone) were once models. Probably just coincidence though.

Thanks, Coca-Cola 1.Tell me more about Charollets and the Golden Dawn Society.

Talking of C.S.Lewis, those arctic scenes at the end of S2 kind of reminded me of “The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe”.

B.t.w Charlotte Lewis is also the name of a model-turned-actress who appeared in Roman Polanski’s 80s dud, Pirates. Dunno if this could be relevant but we have had rather a few subtle nods to Mr Polanski along the way. And alot of the actors playing central Losties (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Boone) were once models. Probably just coincidence though.


The model thing I wasn’t aware of but most actors did model at some time in their career. The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe comes into play here, so does The Chronicles of Narnia by CJ Lewis. I know that I have read a lot about Lewis being interweaved in the illuminati through the Golden Dawn Society in past readings. Charlottes character is based on him a lot.( I read that in an interview with the writers.) Michael Faraday was an illuminati scientist and fact he was very controlled by them. Thats why he suffered mental illness, most members of these groups do because of the prolonged abuse. He was given a retreat to retire to by order of the Queen and as I'm sure you know the Royal Family has always been part of the Royal Illuminati.

The tattoos are definitely linked to monarch programming. Jacks
tattoo was actually given to the first Mk-Ultra slaves and was brought back years later in the monarch slave programming. Charlie’s tattoo that I havent heard many talk about was very important also and was sometimes worn by monarch slaves who’s mothers were MKUltra and has deep meaning for those with "web" (meaning spider web) programming. These people are anywhere from 21 to about 40 right now.

I haven't read much through this thread so I don't want to say to much because I don't want to repeat what may have already been posted. Im waiting for butterflies to come into play. If you see any reference to butterfly please let me know so I don't miss it. That’s a true sign of monarch programming. I think the Oceania 6 who want to go back are probably under monarch programming and the butterfly symbolizes (come home....no place like home........phone home) The monarch butterfly always returns home and that is why it was used in the programming of the monarch slave. Many monarch slaves are attracted to butterflies and will often tattoo with butterflies and collect them. When we speak of the Island wanting them back, where saying it wants them to go home, come home, "you belong here, you are now one of us".

There is no doubt they are using Illuminati programming, far to many uses of it. What the reason for it is I do not know. I do know Lindeof's father was very into the Illuminati. It was said he studied it perhaps this is true or perhaps there’s more to it. Either way one of the writers is very familiar with the illuminati and that could be the reason for the symbolism. I do think the (conscious mind) is going to start playing a bigger role then it already has. The conscious mind is the only thing that can move faster then the speed of light. I think this may explain some of the time travel issues and the "time" problem we haven’t been able to explain. But I'm only guessing on this.

This scene here http://www.hatch23.com/tag/brainwashing (http://www.hatch23.com/tag/brainwashing]) (watch video) is very much how some programming is done.

According to Wikipedia (Official Research Tool For Crackpot Lost Theorists Everywhere!), Shambala is ”a hidden mystical kingdom” in Tibetan Buddhism. Various Eastern-infused esoteric traditions in the West (read: New Age, Occult, ”Mystery Sect” religions) consider Shambala to be ”inhabited by a mystic brotherhood whose members labor for the good of humanity.” Even more provocative is this: ”Some early twentieth-century occultists… view Shambala as a source of negative manipulation by an evil or amoral conspiracy.” Shambala lore is linked to Agartha, a mystical lost city at the center of world, inhabited by enlightened, possibly eternal beings known as The Old Ones who — get this — KIDNAP HUMAN CHILDREN AND RAISE THEM AS THEIR OWN!


We could go on forever about this stuff. I myself could write a small book on this stuff as compared to LOST. Some things unless you really study it, you would never pick up on . I didn’t realize this thread was here. I am assuming it's (ok) to mentioned that word here??? Yes , NO??????

The Artic you mention above is and has been for years the play ground for the very wealthy. Even Amelia Earhart and her husband George Putman were very interested in the Artic. The Illuminati branches off into all layers of society but at one point it was mainly the very rich. They were also very interested in the Artic, and Hallow Earth for more selfish reasons.

Great writers, Philosophers, Scientist and Doctors were all recruited to help the Illuminati and there goals. That’s why so many famous people are affiliated one way or another with the illuminati. Some may have been affiliated due to fear of losing their jobs or their lives and the lives of their family members.

Threre is so much more but not enough time right now to go into any of it as I need to be at work in two hours. I'm surprised this thread has lasted so long without it being attacked. As much as people don't want to hear about it, LOST philosophy is of the illuminati. Just where the writers are taken it I have no idea. They are probably just using the philosophy and the show will be something entirely different.

I think the yellow lab will be playing a bigger role in the next season also. The link I gave above talks a bit about the yellow labs.

Coke

Fascinating read, Coke!

Don’t worry that you’ve missed this thread in the past, it’s been lurking in the depths of the forum in recent months because my theorising kind of ground to a halt during the hiatus. But I really would urge you to try and have a read through it at some point, because it sounds like we’re totally on the same track here with regards to Monarch and MKULTRA. You might be interested in my Psychedelic Experience thread too (also currently languishing in the depths of the forum!), since it outlines my initial research into MKULTRA which eventually culminated in this theory.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=82925

I have mentioned butterflies very briefly before - nothing on the show itself so far (unless you count Charlie’s moth emerging from its cocoon?), but with regard to an essay by Ron Patton which gives details of how butterfly tattoos were common marks for Monarch sujects. Here’s the link to the specific post, which includes a link to the Ron Patton essay itself.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1637035&postcount=76

Am intrigued by your comment about Jack’s tattoo being given to the first MK-Ultra slaves - if only because his tattoo was the launch pad for this entire thread! Do you mean that there’s a specific part of his tattoo which has been directly borrowed from MKULTRA, or are you talking more generally? I STILL reckon Jack’s tattoo is his Dharma logo, and that the Dharma Shark was a very clever hidden metaphor for the Doc’s hidden and potentially dangerous status. Although if you read through this thread, you’ll see that I’m kinda alone on this one!

Thanks for the link to brainwashing stuff - don’t really have time to read through it properly at the moment, but I will get back to it. Although I can’t watch videos on my computer so can you please explain what the relevance of yellow labs could be. It sounds very intriguing!

Bye for now but hope we can chat about this again soon ...

H x

PS - and to anyone reading this. A while back I mentioned a possible Lost link with the Mel Gibson movie, Conspiracy Theory, which is about MKULTRA. I’d been wracking my brains trying to remember why the word “Geronimo” was important in that movie, because I wondered if it could somehow relate to Lost’s Geronimo Jackson. OK, the movie finally repeated on UK tv .... and Geronimo was the name of the mental institution where Gibson’s character had been initially brainwashed! Freaky.

Hildy: I *totally* thought of this theory after Confirmed Dead. Is it possible those were actually flash forwards to the near future, after the freighter folks have returned to civilization? Was their odd behavior (e.g., Daniel crying, Frank calling the hotline, etc.) the result of repressed memories from being brainwashed?

Hey Bigmouth - glad you’re still thinking about my theory!

Hmmm, not sure about those off-island scenes involving the freighter folk yet, since I’m still coming to grips with those characters. And I’m still trying to work out how the central characters’ so-called flashforwards fit into all this . Can I get back to you when we’ve seen a few more episodes of Season 4? It’s a bit too early to post any definitive thoughts on this one yet.

H x
100%
Hey BM - I realise that last post was probably a bit of a cop-out, so I’m going to outline my theory about how the flashforwards fit into all this. It’s all still a bit vague but here goes ...

SHOULD WE TAKE THE FLASHFORWARDS AT FACE VALUE?

Let’s assume that the flashBACKS were a distorted version of the losties’ actual pasts, and that everyone had been hypnotised to believe in their fake personas. Whilst those flashback memories did contain elements of the truth, the actual people they’d known and the actual situations they’d experienced previously were all heavily disguised within the context of their fake backstories. For example, Locke wasn’t really paralysed but the fake memory related to a real past sense of helplessness in a certain situation; Kate wasn’t really a fugitive but she had been trying to escape from something or someone; and “Randy” freakily appears in both Locke and Hurley’s backstories because he’s a disguised vesion of the same someone else in their actual pasts. And I’m still convinced that Matthew Fox’s character isn’t really a miracle surgeon, and that any allusions to comicbook superheroes on the show are actually a clue to his “alien” super powers (ie. “alien” as in “not his own”; “super powers” as in “incredible surgical abilities”).

I still reckon that it’s incredibly relevant that the radio jamming system and Rousseau’s distress signal were both switched off at the three month point. Partly because I reckon one (or both) of these was responsible for somehow maintaining everyone’s fake personas and memories. And also because there’s historical evidence that certain MKULTRA experiments in Canada (a country mentioned specifically in TTLG) attempted to erase existing memories and rebuild the psyche, and in some cases involved patients being kept in a drug-induced coma for up to three months. Another admittedly tenuous potential “clue” comes in a Matthew Fox interview on Ellen I tracked down on youtube - the actor expressed his desire to quit smoking, and the host said it’d taken three months of hypnosis for her attempts to succeed.

Putting aside Jack’s early “flashforward” scenes in LA (since they play out just as easily as flashbacks or flashforwards), I think it’s highly relevant that we only realised he knew Kate in the outside world AFTER the radio jamming system/Rousseau’s distress signal had been turned off. In other words, it’s possible that the so-called flashforwards are actually memories (or their imagination) in which elements from everyone’s true past are gradually starting to emerge within the context of their now-weakening fake backstories. (ie. who would Jack have met in that carlot if the radio jamming system/distress signal had still been switched on?!).

If everyone had previously been hypnotised to believe they were somebody they weren’t, in order to keep them on the island to complete some mysterious mission and explain their presence there, it’s possible that the “flashforwards” actually depict their gradually-awakening minds struggling to deal with the very real possibility of rescue. Call it a battle between their natural (ie. current) urge to escape and their previously subconscious (but now increasingly conscious) desire to remain on the island to complete their mission. Since that mission presumably hasn’t been completed yet, this could explain why everyone’s future seems to be so bleak - Jack’s a drugged-up alcoholic mess; Hurley is back in Santa Rosa; Sayid is still a killing machine; Kate is free and has a child but is a hated public figure and is very much alone. In other words, subconsciously each one knows that they can’t leave yet, and the desire to stay will increase as the season progesses and the effects of the hypnosis grow increasingly weaker.

I still reckon everyone knew each other before the “crash”, but their fake flashBACKS disguised the people they knew as other characters (eg. Rose as Sayid’s CIA contact; Sayid as Desmond’s friend Donovan and Ben’s Dharma associate Horace Goodspeed). Now the hypnosis has been switched off, those people are starting to appear in everyone’s memories (or “flashFORWARDS”) as themselves.

Also, it’s possible that the so-called “flashforwards” relate not to the future but to everyone’s more immediate pasts. For example, each of Hurley’s flashforward scenes seems to relate directly to those preceding them. The initial car chase which opens S4 directly follows his heroic TTLG van drive into the beach settlement; the Charlie-swimming vision occurs when Hurley still believes his friend is alive; Charlie’s uncharacteristically clean-cut appearance at the Santa Rosa could relate to Hurley’s idealistic opinion of his recently-deceased friend (ie. he can’t believe he’s dead, so in his imagination Charlie is still alive); Hurley apologises to Jack for going with Locke, immediately after the scene where he goes with Locke instead of the doc (ie. instantly regretted his decision?).

I’m wary of commenting on Sayid’s flashforwards since I missed that episode and am relying on transcripts and outlines on lostpedia. But it struck me that Elsa’s scenes could relate more to his sense of feeling responsible for Shannon’s death on the island, since both women died from gunshot wounds to the abdomen. I’m still trying to work out how Ben fits in here, although it wouldn’t surprise me if both men had been incarcerated together on Dharma Island before the “crash”. I’m also currently working on some potential Moriarty/Sherlock Holmes parallels since one of Ben’s fake passports bore the name Moriarty, and there’s a S3 blooper where Terry O’Quinn jockingly refers to Naveen Andew’s character as “Holmes”.

I’m also still working on Kate’s flashforwards. Although if Kate’s island mission had somehow been prompted by Claire’s involvement, then it’s possible the new memories relate to her subconscious willingness to do anything to protect her friend’s child. (ie. her willingness to remain in the state for 10 years could refer to her subconscious determination to remain on the island and protect Claire/Aaron). I still reckon Kate was disguised as Claire’s Aunt Lindsey in flashback, and that the two women are actually related.

Also, if everyone’s fake personas had been maintained by some form of hypnosis which has now been switched off, it’s possible that everyone’s true pesonalities are slowly starting to emerge. Which could explain why Jack’s suddenly winking all the time, and tried to shoot Locke in cold blood; why Sayid foolishly and uncharacteristically fell for the old “friend held captive” ruse; why an uncharacteristically bawdy Rose told Claire to treat her man “real good”; and why Sawyer is becoming a right ‘ole softie (ie. comforting Hurley after Charlie’s demise). Has anyone spotted anything else out of character which could be relevant here?

So perhaps the contrived cover story which the Oceanic 6 have apparently devised for themselves refers not to what happened to them since their supposed rescue, but rather to the complex cover story (ie. the fake backstories and personas) created for their island mission in the first place. Maybe the stuggle to maintain the allusion refers not to keeping up the act in the outside world, but keeping up the act on the island itself now that everyone’s true personalities are starting to emerge.

As for why TPTB have acknowledged that TTLG introduced the flashforward element within the show - I’m still convinced it relates more to the on-island scenes and that they’re set at some point in the future beyond 2004.

That’s it - thoughts please! And be kind - this is still just a theory in progress!

H x

OK Hildy..
I told you I would get back to you.. and here I am. : )
I read what you told me to read, and I found it very interesting. You went way deep on this theory. I found the "pilot's (Seth)" aspect of it all, very intriguing.
Well done.







"Welcome to Craphole island, ill be your host this evening.. and forever" ; )

Cheers m'dear, glad you liked it!

H x

Cheers m'dear, glad you liked it!

H x

Cheers hun
:kiss: muah

I don't know if this qualifies as "out of character" but it has been bothering me. When Kate asked Miles "do you know who I am" I don't think she was referring to her identity as Kate Austin the fugitive. What difference did it make whether or not Miles knew she was a fugitive.? Law enforcement agencies would figure that out pretty quickly once she was rescued and returned to the "real" world. The marshal tracked her all the way to Australia after all. Even if she assumed the identity of someone who had died in the crash, she would have to depend on a lot of people keeping quiet about her "real" identity. The question makes a lot of sense, however, if her true identity is beginning to emerge and she is trying to make sense of what is coming to the surface.

Also, if everyone’s fake personas had been maintained by some form of hypnosis which has now been switched off, it’s possible that everyone’s true pesonalities are slowly starting to emerge. Which could explain why Jack’s suddenly winking all the time, and tried to shoot Locke in cold blood; why Sayid foolishly and uncharacteristically fell for the old “friend held captive” ruse; why an uncharacteristically bawdy Rose told Claire to treat her man “real good”; and why Sawyer is becoming a right ‘ole softie (ie. comforting Hurley after Charlie’s demise).
Interesting, but it would then be incompatible with evidence that characters are consciously slipping out of character, and I've seen plenty of that -- winking, suppressing laughter, hiding smiles.

The one character who's looked "programmed" to me has been Desmond, and now more than ever. But there's a problem with hypnotic and other forms of suggestion: it's impossible to distinguish whether a subject is following suggestions unconsciously or is just playing along deliberately. And that will be the downfall of Desmond's programmers.

When Kate asked Miles "do you know who I am" I don't think she was referring to her identity as Kate Austin the fugitive.
Neither do I. AFAICT what she wanted to know is whether The Fantastic Four knew she was Aaron's mother.

Robert

I know you believe that Claire's pregnancy and delivery were faked but what is your theory re Kate being Aaron's mother? How, when did that pregnancy and delivery take place?

I know you believe that Claire's pregnancy and delivery were faked but what is your theory re Kate being Aaron's mother? How, when did that pregnancy and delivery take place?
In Australia. But Jane Eris has posed interesting alternatives.

Now I'm looking at some of the marshal's comments in a new light. When he said to Kate "maybe someone will believe your story" and said to "Jack "don't believe anything she says" was he thinking that Kate might not go along with the program and tell the "truth"?

Interesting, but it would then be incompatible with evidence that characters are consciously slipping out of character, and I've seen plenty of that -- winking, suppressing laughter, hiding smiles.

The one character who's looked "programmed" to me has been Desmond, and now more than ever. But there's a problem with hypnotic and other forms of suggestion: it's impossible to distinguish whether a subject is following suggestions unconsciously or is just playing along deliberately. And that will be the downfall of Desmond's programmers.


Neither do I. AFAICT what she wanted to know is whether The Fantastic Four knew she was Aaron's mother.

Robert

Ok I want to reply to this but I need to say something first. I do not proclaim that anyone theory is correct infact I believe many theories are at play here. If one mentiones Illuminati, CON, "Time Travel" "North Pole" or any of the "other" "words" that are no no's on these boards the swarm comes in and eats us alive.

I will touch on programming here but please do not assume you know whats in my head. This is not pointed at you Robert but for readers in general. This does not mean that I believe that all the losties are programmed. It does not mean anything it means only observation.

With mind control survivors, I use the words mind control in generality here, some, not many but some can start to become aware of said programming. When they become "aware" they can also become aware of how to change the programming but because this programming is so deeply inbeded into thier system it takes time for this to occur. Many survivors will go through stages of transformation ( if you will). They will also
subconsciously do things that indicate the breaking of the programming and are not aware of what they are doing.

When Hurley broke those mirrors on his famous ride, (I belive there were other things about mirrors with him) this is straight from monarch programming. Because mirroring is often used in monarch programming the breaking of all the mirrors is a way to break out of the programming. Many survivors of monarch programming will break mirrors. It is the only "way out" due to the programming as they see it. They have to break all the mirrors that keep them intraped. A "safeall" programming is also intstalled so if the survivor becomes "aware" and tries to break free and breaks too many mirrors (layers within the programming system) thier system will start to shut down and the brain will tell the body to suicide. This is a safeall put in place by the programmers.

So its possible that Desmond could be aware and only buying time until he figures out what the hell to do next or he may be becomming unprogrammed and is not entirley sure yet of what is happening to him. Breaking true programming is a very long process and is not something one pops out of in a matter of moments. Now we don't know what kind of programming Desmond has undergone if he has undergone any. But what some people do not realise programming has been a dark art amoungst the elite and wealthy for a very long time. Pennys father is a perfect exsample of a man who would belong to a sinister group who practices these things. Transgenerational familes have used this dark art for a very long time. Also, the military started programming those within the military after WW2 (which of course came from the very elite and those that controled the military ie, transgenrational families) and many believe even proior to this. But the fact that Desmond often seems to make snap decisions and often times those that are not in his best interest we have to wonder if he hasn't been programmed for a long time.

I don't know if were dealing with programming or not here but there are alot of indications we might be on some level. Also the winking, surpressing laughter, hiding smiles ect... go hand and glove with pogramming and sinister groups. And the only common thought they all share is this: Trust no one! And Survival of the fetus.

Oh goodie, tons of posts to repsond to!

Weddo - thanks for joining in the debate here. I have to admit that Kate’s “do you know who I am?” didn’t actually strike me as particularly odd at the time. I’d presumed she was merely asking if her supposed criminal status was common knowledge and therefore if she risked being arrested the minute she stepped off the island. However, you do raise a VERY good point. It could indeed be subtle evidence that she’s slowly becoming aware of who she “really” is. Or, knowing these pesky writers, it could be an ironic nod to the fact that she isn’t really who she says (and thinks) she is. I think the same could be true with the Marshall’s comments actually - it’s debateable if he was aware what was “really” going on, so I reckon his genuinely innocent comments carried an ironic hidden meaning intended for us the viewers.

Something which did strike me as odd about Kate was when she assured Naomi that she wouldn’t hurt her, and said “you know us” as apparent proof of this point. My quibble is that Naomi had only been on the island a relatively short time (can anyone confirm how long exactly?), and she’d just had a knife thrown in her back by one of this group which was now demanding that she trust them! So I’m wondering if this was evidence that Kate (consciously or subconsciously) had known Naomi previously, and that Kate’s “mask” is starting to slip now the distress signal/radio jamming has been turned off. Note that Kate was distressed at the time - maybe this caused a brief spurt of “realness” to emerge temporarily.

Doc - great to see you here, as always! I’m not convinced that the characters are consciously slipping out of character here, despite all those winks etc. I still think it’s a more subtle “awakening” process than that. If my theory is correct, then they’ve been under a strong enough “spell” to maintain the illusion for around three months
so it seems unlikely that they would spring back into their actual characters immediately. I think it’ll take a few more episodes for them to become fully aware of who they really are - maybe people will start to question why their friends are behaving so “out of character”? Also, I’m still convinced that the losties were originally from different factions - with some out for revenge, and others seeking to prevent that revenge from succeeding. If everyone was suddenly aware of who they really were, wouldn’t those allegiences be more readily apparent? Or have I missed something?

I’m wary of commenting on Desmond here, because I haven’t seen the latest episode yet (darn these belated UK transmission dates!). Although from what I’ve read, it does indeed seem like Desmond offers the strongest proof that people on the island have somehow been programmed. I’ll get back to you when I see the epi.

I’m afraid I’m still not totally on board with your theory that Claire faked her pregnancy - if only because I’m still convinced Claire’s pregnancy was deliberately contrived to provide bait for the Others, and I have a niggling suspicion that pre-pilot (ie. bad!) “Jack” might’ve had some sinister role in this. Can we agree to disagree on this one?

Coke - I’m afraid I missed those smashing mirrors in all my excitement about the pile of lemons - or not! (LOL) So I can’t really comment on what you’re suggesting about Hurley here. Although I will say that I think any references to mirrors are more to do with “smoke and mirror” illusions, and to Jack being the “mirror image” of Desmond. However, this isn’t dismissing your own theory and I think you raise some very interesting points with regard to mirrors and MONARCH victims.

I like your comment that programming takes a while to break out of - it kinds of tallies with what I was saying to Doc earlier about how the losties will only gradually emerge from the effects of the programming “spell”. I definately think the winking etc. is proof that they are subconsciously starting to break free. And Desmond’s behaviour could indeed be proof that he’s slowly becoming aware that something isn’t quite right within his “character”, and that he’s struggling to deal with the obviously confusing and disconcerting implications of this. (Darn, I wish I’d seen this epi!).

H x
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Me again - something just struck me when reading back over my last post. In the brilliant Ken Russell movie, Tommy, the protagonist has been rendered deaf, dumb and blind ever since a childhood trauma but awakens from the “spell” after falling through a mirror. It definately seems to parallel Coke’s suggestion regarding mirrors and breaking free from the effects of programming.
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KEY CLUE ABOUT SAYID’S PAST AND REAL NAME?!?!?!?!

OK, I haven’t seen The Constant yet (only airs in UK tonight) but wj60608 has mentioned elsewhere that it includes a Ferris Wheel. I think this could be a nod to The Third Man, and I think the clue relates to Desmond’s co-escapee Sayid.

The Third Man is set in Vienna which is famous (amongst other things) for the Wurstelprater fairground and its giant ferris wheel. A key scene plays out on it, related to Harry Lime’s forged passport racket and including a famous speech about the Swiss. Note that Ben’s forged passport is Swiss, and that it’s found by Sayid. If I’m right, the ferris wheel clue could be telling us that Sayid was responsible for everyone’s forged identities - just like Harry Lime was responsible for the forged passports in the movie. The fact that the ferris wheel appears in Desmond’s “time-travel” seems to suggest that he is subconsciously aware of this fact (ie. his addled consciousness is distorting and disguising the truth, in much the same way as the flashbacks).

Vienna is also famous for Johann Strauss’ waltz music. Note that Sayid and Elsa go to a Strauss opera in The Economist. So we have another potential Third Man link. However, it’s possible that the Strauss opera they went to see was by Richard Strauss (a bit less lightweight?). This Strauss was rumoured to have been an active member of The Third Reich. So is the Strauss clue suggesting that Sayid was previously a member of the island’s sinister ruling power? It certainly seems to tie in with the flashforward scenes showing him working for Ben. (I DON’T think this means Sayid WILL work for Ben - I think it means both WERE part of the same organisation in the past).

The presumed references to The Third Man could be a clue that Sayid’s real name is Harry, just like the movie’s Harry Lime. A while back, Hurley made some crack to Sayid about “put the LIME in the coconut” which is a reference to a HARRY Nielsen song. (Interestingly, Nielsen also provided the main song in “Midnight Cowboy” - a movie referenced when Sawyer says “Hey, I’m walking here!” in Ana-Lucia’s Two For The Road flashback). I think I’ve mentioned in the past that I’m convinced Sayid’s real name is Harry, with regard to Michael Caine’s iconic character HARRY Palmer in The Ipcress File (about mind control!), and the “steam-rollered HARRY Potter” gag concerning the makeshift glasses Sayid made for Sawyer. This latest "clue" makes me even more convinced.

Other potential Lost parallels within The Third Man include the hero going to meet a friend of Harry’s called Baron Kurtz (ie. links to Locke being referred to as Colonel Kurtz?) at a local book club meeting (ie. Juliet’s book club meeting). And the whole point of the movie is that everyone believes Harry to be dead when he’s not - just like the outside world apparently believes the passengers of Flight 815 to be dead when they’re not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

Hurley literally went "through the looking glass"
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1979232
other links to mirrors and LOST
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2008/feb/01/hurley-crashes-mirrors-4-1/
http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/lost-it-finally.html
http://blog.thedarktowerstation.com/2007/05/brig-mirrors.html

The Alice In Wonderland story is highly regarded by the programmers, because it portrays the situation that exists between the spiritual world & the physical world. When people within the physical look toward the spiritual, it is like looking into a mirror. Initially, they will only see the physical world reflected back. But if they go beyond the mirror, they would see a “mirror image” of the physical exists in the spiritual realm. When Christians pray they say, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Earth is a mirror image of heaven, not an exact copy, but someday they will be alike, according to Scripture. According to messianic Jews who understand the OT well, the ceremonial law is being enacted in heaven spiritually as it’s mirror image once was done on earth. When the programming is seen only in a secular fashion, much of its design is missed. What have witches used to see beyond time and space? Mirrors. Remember the witch saying ‘mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all”? The idea is magical mirrors, the speculums, which will lead one “through the looking glass mirror” that then allows the victim to magically transcend time & space. One of the important keys to success with Monarch programming are generational spirits. The cover for this is studies in genetic science.

Spirits are in a sense a mirror image world. They are placed in the victim first. The programming and the images that are built will be built with their cooperation and guardianship. Spirits are appointed to protect each program and each memory. A spirit commander called a chief executive is set in command of the victim’s life. Military command structures around the world are structured on how the demonic command structure exists. Some soldiers have the same function, but are not actually the exact same person. So it is with demons. Victims have their own individual demons, but they are models of what that type of demon is supposed to act like. The child is exposed to films, books and stories. The spirits interact within the person’s mind to lock these pictures in place. The demons in a sense serve as mirrors within the child’s mind, reflecting the images the child needs to fix in the mind. As the programmer, child and demons structure the interual world, the demonic spirits will guard these structures. The force or energy behind the structures is the demons. In order to guard things further, demonic castles and temples will exist within a system to guard it. Entire spiritual quadrants will exist, that are entirely spiritual and contain absolutely no alters. These spiritual worlds can not be seen physically.

In Monarch Programming, the use of mirrors is a basic important tool for to make split multiple personalities. The mental mirrors, which are programmed into the victim, create thousands of alters (artificial personalities), which then can be programmed in whatever way the Illuminati programmer wants.

With regards to this, it's interesting to read the lyrics of Jimi Hendrix, especially from a song called "Room full of mirrors". The lyrics go:

I USED TO LIVE IN A ROOM FULL OF MIRRORS
ALL I COULD SEE WAS ME
WELL I TOOK MY SPIRIT
AND I CRASHED MY MIRRORS
NOW THE WHOLE WORLD IS HERE FOR ME TO SEE
I'VE GOT A WHOLE WORLD THAT'S HERE FOR ME TO SEE
NOW I'M SEARCHING FOR MY LOVE TO BE

BROKEN GLASS WAS FALLING IN MY BRAIN
CUTTIN' AND SCREAMIN' AND CRYING IN MY HEAD
BROKEN GLASS WAS FALLING IN MY BRAIN
IT USED TO FALL ON MY DREAMS AND CUT ME IN MY BED
IT USED TO FALL ON MY DREAMS AND CUT ME IN MY BED
I SAID MAKING LOVE WAS STRANGE IN MY BED"



"Mirrors, and lots of them, are important in occult programming because they make images. They create so many internal images one doesn’t know which way to go.

The Programmers like to manipulate. Children are set in front of circus mirrors that make them taller or smaller for programming. They are set in front of mirrors which duplicate their image. Here in Oregon, there is a site with a magnetic anomaly which bends light. It is called the Oregon Vortex. The Programmers take small children there for programming. Anything that creates an illusion, seems to be noticed by the Programmers and is put to use somehow.
The CIA has employed magicians like John Mulholland to help them create illusions. Magician John Mulholland wrote a manual for the CIA on how to deceive unwitting subjects. Under drugs and hypnosis, when a small child is set in front of a mirror that elongates its body and or then shortens, the reality of the programming script seems real. The programmer can hypnotically call upon the child’s mind to totally hallucinate seeing something, or he can support the illusion by handing the child a doll and telling it that it is a child, or handing the child a pencil and telling the child it is a flower. A great deal of acting and props are used during the programming.
What child can tell fool’s gold from real gold? The bottom line is that generally, no matter which way the Programmers do it, whether by an illusion or an outright hypnotic-suggested hallucination, the event for the child is real. The majority of traumas are real events, but the scripts that are given are after the trauma are fictional.

A few of the internal images predominately seen by victims/survivors are: Trees, the Cabalistic "Tree of Life," with adjoining root systems, infinity loops, ancient symbols and letters, spider webs, mirrors or glass shattering, masks, castles, mazes, demons/monsters/aliens, sea shells, butterflies, snakes, ribbons, bows, flowers, hour glasses, clocks, robots, chain-of-command, diagrams , schematics of computer circuitry boards.

Below a discription from a suvivor of the mirror system:
A therapist’s client may be responding in a way that makes no sense until one realizes the internal structures that they are responding to. An alter generally must maintain the spot in the mind which it is assigned. To leave that location in the mind, means traveling through a System which is filled with dangers and traps of all kinds. Only a few of our alters ever ventured where they were not to go, and they always encountered many obstacles. However, if an alter gets trapped behind mirrors, the alter should not break the mirrors. If the alter is a Christian they can use the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to bind and cast out the demons which are in the mirrors. The danger of the mirrors is the demonology involved. Some things work and some things don’t. We are speaking from our years of experience. The mirrors are deadly and they were everywhere in our System, but they are deadly only if one can’t deal with the demonology.




When building a system, the Programmers take advantage of their knowledge of how multiplicity works. Two alters can have several possible relationships which are:a. two-way amnesia, where neither alter knows about the other’s existence. This is what the Programmers want for most alters. They don’t want multiples to even know they are multiples.b. one-way amnesia, where A alter knows B alter, but B doesn’t know A. This can be accomplished by setting in one-way mirrors.c. co-presence, two alters can come on top of each other at the front of the mind and hold the body together. This produces some strange behavior for the multiple as different alters synthesize their thoughts. When a tough alter comes up behind a Christian alter, the Christian alter may find himself letting loose of a cuss word without knowing where exactly it came from. When a child alter comes up behind an adult, the adult may find itself talking like a child.d. co-conscious, this is when two alters are aware of what each other is thinking.The above are qoutes from different sources on the net. Some sites are better then others and much disinfo but these above are pretty much on target. I was hoping to find more about the smashing mirror theme but it's part of deprogramming and not as readliy available and it consider dangerous stuff. Sorry so long but there are many "things" to this.Coke100%
You know I was just playing with an idea. The writers have told us that nothing is what it appears to be. With that said and if we think in terms of AS IS ABOVE, SO IS BELOW and then refer to the reflection in the water of the island, a city ( the mirror image of the island) perhaps it's not an Island after all. ?? Any thoughts?

I’m afraid I’m still not totally on board with your theory that Claire faked her pregnancy - if only because I’m still convinced Claire’s pregnancy was deliberately contrived to provide bait for the Others, and I have a niggling suspicion that pre-pilot (ie. bad!) “Jack” might’ve had some sinister role in this. Can we agree to disagree on this one?
Sure, but I don't see why you think a pregnancy would have to be real to constitute bait. We both think she was bait or a decoy.

However, it’s possible that the Strauss opera they went to see was by Richard Strauss (a bit less lightweight?). This Strauss was rumoured to have been an active member of The Third Reich.
Or it could've been Edouard Strauss, even more lightweight, but I don't know if he wrote any operas. (I just know of him as the composer of what Jean P. Shepherd used as theme music for decades, starting with some horse racing animation done for a TV sponsor.)

Funny story about Ricard Strauss. My friend Nadine (who because of my connecting people -- complicated -- also got to know Damon L.) was the daughter of an OSS agent, Fred, who was sent to commandeer Strauss's home during the occupation of Germany. "Do you know who I am? I am Ricard Straaauuuusssss!" Fred was a lover of opera and music in general, and professed great appreciation to him for his music -- but hustled him out of there unceremoniously and into some detention for questioning nonetheless. Just one of the great and amusing stories coming out of Fred's time in the OSS and sequelae, but it's interesting that it involves names on a list and "Do you know who I am?".

The presumed references to The Third Man could be a clue that Sayid’s real name is Harry, just like the movie’s Harry Lime. A while back, Hurley made some crack to Sayid about “put the LIME in the coconut” which is a reference to a HARRY Nielsen song. (Interestingly, Nielsen also provided the main song in “Midnight Cowboy” - a movie referenced when Sawyer says “Hey, I’m walking here!” in Ana-Lucia’s Two For The Road flashback). I think I’ve mentioned in the past that I’m convinced Sayid’s real name is Harry, with regard to Michael Caine’s iconic character HARRY Palmer in The Ipcress File (about mind control!), and the “steam-rollered HARRY Potter” gag concerning the makeshift glasses Sayid made for Sawyer. This latest "clue" makes me even more convinced.
OK, as long as his last name isn't Lime, for that would defeat the purpose. "Jarrah" sounds close to Harry.

Robert

In Australia. But Jane Eris has posed interesting alternatives.

Everything she post is interesting!

Sure, but I don't see why you think a pregnancy would have to be real to constitute bait. We both think she was bait or a decoy.



You have a point there, doc!

You have a point there, doc!

I was just thinking. The perfect person to do some "programming" is HARPER. I think Juliet was suffering some type of programming when she told JACK "he has a way of getting to me". (meaning Ben) Just a hunch. Also, Ben told Juliet when she said "ill only be here 6 months" and Ben replied "yes I know, but we want you to feel at home" with a smerk. In monarch programming 6 months is very important as they often change things within the system every six months and........ "home" is very important to monarch slaves, they are always looking to return "home" Just another hunch.

Opps I just realised I related this post to the qoute above, I am sorry it does not reference this statement. I did not mean to do this and I'm off and do not have time to retype this. Sorry Hildy, please ignore.

Coke

I've joined the end of this thread, seen the word "programming" next to HARPER and thought: Aha! someone else knows the name Harper, means 'minstrel' and has cottoned it was her programmed the Looking Glass' Good Vibrations musical lock. :rolleyes: lol

I can think of few people less sheep looking than the scary Harper, so I'ma shut up now.

I've joined the end of this thread, seen the word "programming" next to HARPER and thought: Aha! someone else knows the name Harper, means 'minstrel' and has cottoned it was her programmed the Looking Glass' Good Vibrations musical lock. :rolleyes: lol

I can think of few people less sheep looking than the scary Harper, so I'ma shut up now.

Well I was just playing with thought. I do not even know if 'programming" is occuring. But because it has been talked about I'm looking at that angel also when I see things. What I meant by Harper being a good canidate for "programming" is that she is in the position to not only apply "programming" she is someone on the show who's character would have knowledge of "programming". Ben may want the programming done but may not be able to instill it in a person, thats what I meant.

OP Your facts are off:

Ana Lucia seat number was 42F, Jack sat at 23B

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Flight_815_seat_numbers

Interesting and funny fact: "Sawyer was probably in economy class"

Also i don't see any resemblance to DI logo and Jack's tattoo.. this whole theory seems too far fetched

Well I was just playing with thought. I do not even know if 'programming" is occuring. But because it has been talked about I'm looking at that angel also when I see things. What I meant by Harper being a good canidate for "programming" is that she is in the position to not only apply "programming" she is someone on the show who's character would have knowledge of "programming". Ben may want the programming done but may not be able to instill it in a person, thats what I meant.

You're streets ahead of me - I hadn't got much beyond thinking about the lady's origins and the nature of her relationship with Ben... but yeah; someone must oversee the use of Room 23.

Maybe it's her selects people for a therapeutic spin in it? (I'm supposing it's meant to do some good - though 'greater good' may be the only claim can be made for it)

I am not sure if this link has been posted or not, so please forgive me if it has. I became very interested after reading this thread with the MKULTRA theory relating to lost and after clicking on blogs and sites, etc I found this.. just scroll down and you will see what I mean, the blogger even refers to lost:

http://indianlakeproject.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

I am not sure if this link has been posted or not, so please forgive me if it has. I became very interested after reading this thread with the MKULTRA theory relating to lost and after clicking on blogs and sites, etc I found this.. just scroll down and you will see what I mean, the blogger even refers to lost:

http://indianlakeproject.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

Ahhh very interesting. Only certian people can see the true connections of LOST to these things. Do not go to deep into this though, it's a can of worms you do not want to open.

You particularly don't want to go poking around in these : http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm and certainly nothing with the name 'Naomi' and the number 8, or any other of the 'numbers' for that matter.

That's some scary reading you're posting iameve.

(shame Ben's dinner didn't include any artichoke - someone missed a trick there)

You particularly don't want to go poking around in these : http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm and certainly nothing with the name 'Naomi' and the number 8, or any other of the 'numbers' for that matter.

That's some scary reading you're posting iameve.

(shame Ben's dinner didn't include any artichoke - someone missed a trick there)

Liplock I do not know if your serious or joking but this is scary stuff and not to be taken lightly. Digging into this stuff can cause alot of problems for a person, beond making comparisons to LOST it is a can of worms you do not want to open. Not to mention what it does to your "head'. It an also be all consumming and its a road that leads to no good!

You are right Coca-Cola, but it is all interesting. I just can't fathom how this happened in our real world!! It sounds like a movie, or better yet, a tv show... Lost.. lol...

100%
You are right Coca-Cola, but it is all interesting. I just can't fathom how this happened in our real world!! It sounds like a movie, or better yet, a tv show... Lost.. lol...


Yes and that’s part of the problem, it was and is real! There has been numerous public statements by government officials apologizing to the innocent victims and their families. Not to mention numerous lawsuits filed on behalf of vitims. Of course they swear they no longer conduct such experiments, (lol) ya wanna bet?????

Its just being done more openly and on the public at large. And in another twenty years they will again offer false apologizes to the victims and their families but until that time they will flat out deny that it is happening.

Many correlations’ on LOST hint towards mind control and Illuminati. Illuminati meaning sinister groups not illuminati per say. And there is so much more to the comparisons then what meets the eye. You need to understand the base and ideology of these groups and their thought process and why they do things the way they do. Until then, one can never really comprehend why the imagery and symbolisms and so forth.
But with that said it does one no good to undertake this project because it buys you nothing but trouble and you end up wishing you did not know anything. As interesting as it might be , its not good, none of it . Sorry this hits hard with me, no offense to you.

Hey guys - sorry I haven’t been around to answer your recent posts, but better late than never ...

Liplocked - nice connection between Harper and “minstrel”, although I haven’t seen that episode yet (darn HD failed to record whilst I was away!).

Heppamies - everyone’s entitled to their own opinions. But I’m sticking to my admittedly outlandish theories until they’re proved wrong on the show!

Iameve - thanks for the brilliant links to MKULTRA info. I’ll get back to you when I’ve had a chance to read and digest it thoroughly.

Coca-Cola 1 - please don’t get too hysterical about this MKULTRA stuff. I appreciate why you feel so sensitive about this topic, but we’re simply looking at it in relation to a fictional tv show and NOT any sinister real-life implications.

Now for some other stuff ...

FERRIS WHEEL = HARRY LIME + FAKE PASSPORTS = FAKE IDENTITIES?

In my last post, I outlined the possible relevance of the ferris wheel mentioned in The Constant, and the fake Swiss passport found by Sayid in The Economist - basically that each were “Third Man” clues suggesting that Sayid had provided fake personas for everyone on the island. I still think I’m right on this one, although obviously I mistakenly attributed the mention of ferris wheels to Desmond rather than Minkowski. Just wanted to clear that up. (And thanks again to wj60608 for spotting what I suspect is a MAJOR clue!).

SEEING THE LIGHT & “NOT PENNY’S BOAT”

Still on the fake identity angle, I wanted to run something by you guys.Is it possible that we’ve been misinterpreting Charlie’s final message to Desmond? I’ve previously suggested that many of the characters knew each other before the “crash” even if they’re unaware of it now. And I’ve also previously suggested that perhaps anyone who is “under the spell” (ie. hypnotised to believe they’re someone they’re not) is somehow released from that spell and effectively “sees the light” in their dying moments - ie. they’re finally aware of what’s really going on even if they’re unable to communicate that truth coherently. I still think this is why Libby looked so horrified just before she died, and it makes one wonder just what Boone wanted Jack to tell Shannon in his dying moments.

In which case, is it possible that Charlie’s final dying message to Desmond was referring more to Penny’s identity rather than her ownership of the boat? In other words, maybe he was trying to say that the boat belonged to “Not Penny”.

Now if I’m right about this (and it is only a suggestion!), then the implication seems to be that Charlie had previously been aware (ie. before being hypnotised) of who “Penny” really was and what she was really doing looking for the island. Which could put the Len Cordova/Penny scene at the end of S2 in a whole new light, because it occurs immediately after a scene between Charlie and Claire. So now I’m wondering if that arctic/Penny scene was actually a disguised memory belonging to Charlie himself, rather than an actual event taking place elsewhere in the world. It’s just a thought, but I’d appreciate your take on it.

CHARLIE’S FAKE MANCUNIAN PERSONA:

Still on Charlie, and one possible explanation for his presumed “fake” backstory. I was talking to a colleague about football, and he was explaining why Manchester United is held in such very high esteem by Mancunians. OK, remember that Charlie is supposedly from Manchester and that I’ve previously suggested that Jack’s real name is Robert - because I think the two are linked.

50 years ago, the Manchester United football team was involved in a horrific plane crash, which occured during take-off from a refuelling stop in Munich whilst returning from a European Cup match. The crash claimed 23 lives (ahem, one of The Numbers), including 8 players (another Number!). The city of Manchester was united in its grief, hence the team’s now ionic status locally. One key player did survive, however, after being heroically dragged from the wreckage, and went on to enoy a glittering career in football, both as a player and manager - his name was Bobby Charlton, later dubbed Sir ROBERT Charlton. (B.t.w another survivor was a heavily-pregnant woman!).

So - is Charlie’s presumably fake Mancunian heritage a clue to an equally fake cover-story about another Robert who “miraculously survives” a plane crash?

Also, there seems to be some kind of connection emerging between Charlie’s presumably fake Mancunian heritage representing an actual plane crash in Germany, and his presumably contrived heroin addiction, AND the salvage vessel which discovered the remains of Flight 815 ... because there’s a famous German film about a heroin addict called Christiane F. Any ideas? Because I’m stumped!

JIN AND SUN’S FLASHBACKS & FLASHFORWARDS / SUN’S PREGNANCY:

Last week’s episode was unusual in that it seemed to feature both flashbacks and flashforwards. However, I think this was actually a clue to on-island events being set in the future. It’s quite complicated to explain, so I’ll take it in stages.

Let’s assume that on-island events are actually taking place in 2010 (ie. so that Lost’s final transmission date coincides with date on the island in final episode). This means that the Losties are therefore also from 2010, even though they currently genuinely believe that they are in 2004.

I still don’t think the flashforwards are showing the losties’ future per se. I think it’s more something to do with their gradually awakening minds processing current and recent past-events on the island, within the weakening context of their fake backstories. Perhaps they’re even some kind of “fail-safe” to prevent them leaving the island before their mission is completed, since everyone’s “future” seems to be bleak.

So let’s assume the “flashforwards” are showing a disguised interpretation of something which is actually in their recent past - ie. pre 2010 but post 2004. This would mean that those scenes could kind of be classed as both flashforwards AND flashbacks depending on whether you’re looking at them from a (fake/mistaken) 2004 perspective or an (actual but hidden) 2010 perspective. Something which happened in, say, 2009 could be classed as a flashFORWARD to someone who believes they’re in 2004; but it would be classed as a flashBACK to someone who is actually in 2010.

It makes it slightly easier to understand this idea of differing perspective if you draw a horizontal line across a piece of paper and write 2004 on the left, 2010 on the right, and flashforwards in the middle of the line. The “flashforwards” are actually in the past if you’re looking at them from 2010, but appear to be in the future if you’re looking at them from the mistaken perspective of being in 2004. Anyway, I think this is why last week’s episode appeared to feature both flashbacks and flashforwards - because in effect, Jin and Sun’s off-island reveries were both set in the future and the past depending upon which perspective you’re looking at them from.

I also think the whole question of whether or not Jin dies in the future was a red herring - the point is that in each characters’ off-island scenes, the couple were apart. I also think it’s extremely relevant that Jin tells the nurse the baby isn’t his because he’s only been married 2 months - the exact same period that Sun’s been pregant on the island. Here’s what I think it means...

Jin and Sun weren’t married before the “Crash”. In fact, I think Sun could’ve been married to Michael previously, hence why Michael re-appears on the show amidst scenes with Sun calling for “her husband”. (I still reckon the puppy Jin stole fom another family represents Sun being taken from one husband and given to another). The Korean pair assumed the fake identity of an estranged married couple for their island mission - most likely “estranged” to keep them from sleeping together whilst on the island. But something went wrong with their too-convincing cover story and they started sleeping together. This would explain why in Jin’s “flashback”, he said he’d only been married 2 months - marital relations only started between the couple 2 months previously, and resulted in the pregnancy. If Sun really is pregnant, that is ...

It’s possible that Sun’s pregnancy isn’t real, merely contrived to provide further (fake) bait for the Others. There’s already some question as to what a pregnancy test kit was doing on the plane - and the Widmore trademark makes it doubly suspect. And it’s convenient that Sun’s morning sickness stops around the same time as Rousseau’s distress signal/radio jamming system (ie. the hypnosis?) is switched off.

However, there’s still the question of Jin’s “flashback” in which he’s rushing to be with a child that isn’t his. Which makes me suspect that Sun was already pregnant with Michael’s child when she “crashed” - hence why Jin is shown rushing to be with a child that isn’t his. One possible piece of evidence is Sun telling Jack her morning sickness has recently ceased - according to wikipedia, morning sickness usually starts in the first month of pregnancy, peaks in the fifth to seventh weeks, and continues until the 14th to 16th week. In other words, Sun should still be suffering from morning sickness if she really is 2 months pregnant and really is carrying Jin’s child.

That’s it. Thoughts please. And could someone tell me why there are “Happy Birthday” balloons floating over my screen - it’s not my birthday, is it The Fuselage’s?!

H x

In my last post, I outlined the possible relevance of the ferris wheel mentioned in The Constant,

Let’s assume that on-island events are actually taking place in 2010 (ie. so that Lost’s final transmission date coincides with date on the island in final episode). This means that the Losties are therefore also from 2010, even though they currently genuinely believe that they are in 2004.

I still don’t think the flashforwards are showing the losties’ future per se. I think it’s more something to do with their gradually awakening minds processing current and recent past-events on the island, within the weakening context of their fake backstories. Perhaps they’re even some kind of “fail-safe” to prevent them leaving the island before their mission is completed, since everyone’s “future” seems to be bleak.

So let’s assume the “flashforwards” are showing a disguised interpretation of something which is actually in their recent past - ie. pre 2010 but post 2004. This would mean that those scenes could kind of be classed as both flashforwards AND flashbacks depending on whether you’re looking at them from a (fake/mistaken) 2004 perspective or an (actual but hidden) 2010 perspective. Something which happened in, say, 2009 could be classed as a flashFORWARD to someone who believes they’re in 2004; but it would be classed as a flashBACK to someone who is actually in 2010.

It makes it slightly easier to understand this idea of differing perspective if you draw a horizontal line across a piece of paper and write 2004 on the left, 2010 on the right, and flashforwards in the middle of the line. The “flashforwards” are actually in the past if you’re looking at them from 2010, but appear to be in the future if you’re looking at them from the mistaken perspective of being in 2004. Anyway, I think this is why last week’s episode appeared to feature both flashbacks and flashforwards - because in effect, Jin and Sun’s off-island reveries were both set in the future and the past depending upon which perspective you’re looking at them from.

H x

I too agree the Faris Wheel comment is significant, but think it may relate to everyone's mind/conscience going round and round. I can see the survivors having their conscience stuck in 2004, but really being in 2010 (Like what happened to Desmond) And like what happened to Desmond, his body in the past or future stopped moving when he flashed went limp. Are the survivors all dead? Are they all in a hospital somewhere? I too have toyed with the thougth that the Island is a flash back for all characters, but whose? Whose flashbacks are we than following? Ben's? A little bit of everyones?
Do dogs have flashbacks?
However, wouldn't the "Others" be stuck as well? If they are Ben's flashbacks, how would he know about what was going on in the Lookingglass, or other scenes. I just couldn't make my flashback theory fit, so I never persused it.

Why would JACK be so obsessed about getting back to the Island? Didn't like 2010?


I was thinking Jack might be working for PAIK, not Widmore. But why does he want to go back so bad if he knows where the Island really is?

Coca-Cola 1 - please don’t get too hysterical about this MKULTRA stuff. I appreciate why you feel so sensitive about this topic, but we’re simply looking at it in relation to a fictional tv show and NOT any sinister real-life implications.

Oh No (LOL) I wasn’t hysterical about MKULTRA - heck I have read everything there is on it and have talked to survivors of it. So no, not hysterical. What I meant to the OP of that was the link she gave the person himself has had problems you can read that right on his web site in his blog. So I just wanted her /him to be careful, the web master himself stated this in the web site. I understand your looking at it for a fictional TV show.

I too agree the Faris Wheel comment is significant, but think it may relate to everyone's mind/conscience going round and round. I can see the survivors having their conscience stuck in 2004, but really being in 2010 (Like what happened to Desmond) And like what happened to Desmond, his body in the past or future stopped moving when he flashed went limp. Are the survivors all dead? Are they all in a hospital somewhere? I too have toyed with the thougth that the Island is a flash back for all characters, but whose? Whose flashbacks are we than following? Ben's? A little bit of everyones?
Do dogs have flashbacks?
However, wouldn't the "Others" be stuck as well? If they are Ben's flashbacks, how would he know about what was going on in the Lookingglass, or other scenes. I just couldn't make my flashback theory fit, so I never persused it.

Why would JACK be so obsessed about getting back to the Island? Didn't like 2010?


I was thinking Jack might be working for PAIK, not Widmore. But why does he want to go back so bad if he knows where the Island really is?

Thanks for a great post, Too2Strange, because you’ve raised some very interesting points. And made me realise that I probably need to summarise my theory a bit!

First off, I’m not suggesting that the losties have been time-travelling in the same way that we’re led to believe Desmond has. It’s not a question of their consciousnesses travelling to one time whilst their bodies remain in another. I think that the show is actually set in 2010 but they’ve been hypnotised and/or drugged to believe that they’re in 2004 for the purposes of their on-island mission. So perhaps Desmond’s recent episode was meant to express this idea in a metaphorical way.

As for what that mission is, I think it’s quite complicated because there are so many different characters and it wouldn’t surprise me if they all had different agendas - some seeking to rectify a wrong they felt responsible for; others seeking revenge for something which happened on the island previously; perhaps others still attempting to prevent that revenge from succeeding. I still suspect it boils down to events we know as “The Purge”, although I can’t decide whether it relates to some kind of revolution or subsequent attempts to “purge” the island of those radical elements.

I definately don’t think the losties are dead - although I do think they’re in a purgatory-like situation where they’re attempting to right past wrongs in order to move on with their lives. I also don’t think they’re necessarily in a hospital although I suppose “the island” could be described as such. My theory suggests that the original island facility attempted to turn bad people into good by giving them new personalities or by instilling virtuous qualities into their characters - most likely using dangerous criminals or criminally insane patients as subjects. When outside funding became necessary, the research became perverted and subjects were exploited into becoming sleeper assassins - ie. if they were ever captured following a crime, they honestly wouldn’t be able to reveal who they really were or what their motives had been. It’s a similar idea to The Manchurian Candidate and also, to a lesser degree, Hitchcock’s Strangers on a Train. I also suspect that there were certain political prisoners there too, who were detained and “re-programmed” in order to silence them.

I think the flashbacks are a vital aspect of Lost, and I think they are/were experienced by all the characters - I don’t think this is all playing out in one person’s head. However, as I’ve stressed time and again, I don’t think the flashbacks can be taken at face value as an accurate depiction of the losties’ past lives as fugitive, lottery winner, conman etc. I think they form part of the re-programming and were designed to provide everyone with a credible backstory and the ultimate disguise. In their minds, they ARE Jack the miracle surgeon, Kate the fugitive etc and therefore act accordingly. But I also think the flashbacks contain hidden elements of truth (kind of like clues to a cryptic crossword puzzle), with flashback-only characters like Christian, Kelvin or Horace Goodspeed actually representing other on-island characters like Jack, Mikhail or Sayid; and Desmond’s time spent in a monastary actually representing his willing incarceration in The Swan for the sake of his brother. So in effect the flashbacks DO represent the truth but it’s heavily disguised within the context of a fake backstory.

My take on the so-called Flashforwards leads on from this fake or disguised flashback theory. I suspect that whatever was controlling the losties and maintaining their fake personas was switched off in the final episode of S3 - my guess is Rousseau’s distress signal or the radio jamming system. Which is when the flashforwards started to appear! I don’t think they show what will happen to the losties when they escape the island, but rather I think they show a disguised version of their more recent past. For example, Elsa’s death seems to echo Shannon’s so Sayid’s scenes in The Economist could be showing his gradually awakening mind starting to process his on-island experiences within the context of his gradually weakening fake backstory. I also think it’s possible that the flashforwards show the losties’ minds triggering some kind of “failsafe”, by providing imagined proof of the bleakest of futures for everyone if they leave the island before their mission is completed. In other words, subconsciously they realise they can’t leave the island yet.

As for where The Others fit in, I think their experiences are similar to the Losties. They’ve been reprogrammed to believe they’re people they’re not - all with the aim of obscuring what the real aims of the island facility are, and who is really in charge. I seriously doubt there really is a Widmore or Paik - they’re just cover stories for the real Powers That Be.

As for why “flashforward Jack” was apparently so obsessed about getting back to the island, I think this relates more to what happened BEFORE “the crash”. I strongly suspect that he was intimately involved with what was going on on the island previously, and therefore felt responsible when things went disasterously wrong. THIS is why he wanted to return - and he succeeded in the pilot episode.

H x

I’ve also previously suggested that perhaps anyone who is “under the spell” (ie. hypnotised to believe they’re someone they’re not) is somehow released from that spell and effectively “sees the light” in their dying moments - ie. they’re finally aware of what’s really going on....

Let’s assume that on-island events are actually taking place in 2010 (ie. so that Lost’s final transmission date coincides with date on the island in final episode). This means that the Losties are therefore also from 2010, even though they currently genuinely believe that they are in 2004.

I still don’t think the flashforwards are showing the losties’ future per se. I think it’s more something to do with their gradually awakening minds processing current and recent past-events on the island, within the weakening context of their fake backstories. Perhaps they’re even some kind of “fail-safe” to prevent them leaving the island before their mission is completed, since everyone’s “future” seems to be bleak.

So let’s assume the “flashforwards” are showing a disguised interpretation of something which is actually in their recent past - ie. pre 2010 but post 2004.
Then Dave was right in what he told Hugo on the island, more or less.

Hildy, I love this stuff and I'd like your take on something. I posted this somewhere around here recently, if it was here everyone please forgive me, but didn't much if any response. We "saw" Ben's purported birth in a flashback but who's flashback was it? His parents are both dead and it is unlikely that he remembers his own birth and impossible for him to remember the immediately preceding circumstances. At most, it could have been a memory of what his father told him but it also could be a completely false version that was planted in the manner that you have suggested. Am I missing something?

Dr. Suds, what did Dave say --- I'm drawing a blank.

Dr. Suds, what did Dave say --- I'm drawing a blank.
He said the way to wake up from this false impression is to "die". He at least implied that false impression was a symbolic version of what was really happening to Hugo.

Weddo - glad you like the thread! And many thanks for raising a VERY interesting point about Ben’s birth flashback. You’re absolutely right - how could it be from his perspective, if it starts before he was even born?! OK - here’s my take on it...

Let’s assume the flashbacks were designed to provide a credible backstory (or “motivation”, to use actor-speak) for everyone’s roles on the island. And that they also contain well-disguised cryptic clues to everyones’ real pasts, hidden subconsciously within the context of those fake backstories. In other words, an actual situation they experienced is disguised as something which would’ve happened to, say, a lottery winner or a conman or a fugitive; and the people that they actually knew previously (ie. everyone on that darn island!) are disguised as different characters within their fictional “flashback” storyline. In other words, Ben’s fictional “birth flashback” represents something else in his factual past life - it has to, otherwise why would he be able to remember it?

I think the important thing about Ben’s “birth flashback” was that his mother died giving life to him. Now if everyone has been programmed, Ben’s flashback could actually be a disguised memory of how the person who “created” him was destroyed as a result. So I suggest that the “mother” represents the person who was part of the Dharma research team which was re-programming test subjects (ie. they ‘gave life” to the person we now know as Ben). But the subjects revolted (The Purge), took control of the Island, and turned the tables on their captors by programming them into believing that they were part of their group of Others (ie. Ben’s “mother” was effectively destroyed - or metaphorically died - as a result of “giving life” to him).

So now we just have to work out precisely who “the mother” respresents. My guess is either Juliet (bears some resemblance to Ben’s mother, and to Karen DeGroot; Ben commented that Juliet had never made soup for him, unlike Jack, which suggests he might’ve once been her captive too; plus Ben’s mother was portayed by Michael Emerson’s real-life wife and Ben wants to have a relationship with Juliet); or Jack (since he was searching for a “White Rabbit”; Ben’s mother ressembled Alice in Wonderland in his vision; I still suspect he played a key role in what took place on the island before “the crash”; and since he doesn’t remember being on the island previously, he must’ve been re-programmed and his original persona “destroyed” in the process). I dunno, I’m just tossing some ideas out there - it’s mind boggling stuff!


Then Dave was right in what he told Hugo on the island, more or less.

He said the way to wake up from this false impression is to "die". He at least implied that false impression was a symbolic version of what was really happening to Hugo.

Blimey doc, you’re right! Although Dave also said “The only way for you to bust out is to tell your mind that you don’t believe any of this”, so dying isn’t the only way to break the spell, thank goodness!

Actually, if we’re on the right track here, then those Dave scenes were extremely clever - hide the real explanation amid something which sounds preposterous. Just like that gruesome Expose epi!

H x
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Me again! Just read that back, and I want to clarify something about my suggestion to Weddo that Ben’s memories of his mother might represent Jack (!). Unlike my Juliet theory, I’m not implying in this case that Ben and his cohorts re-programmed Jack, but rather that Jack was forced to programme himself in preparation for his mission to return to the island to seek revenge for The Purge. So Ben was still indirectly responsible for the “death” of the person that Jack was previously.

Thanks Hildy. If I understand you correctly, we agree that the flashback was a "false" memory. I like the idea that it represents something "real" that happened to "Ben" involving someone/something that is in someway analogous to his "mother." (At the rate I'm going, every word I type will soon be in quotes.

On a related topic, how about Sawyer's early comment to Kate to the effect that he had wanted to kiss her for four years (or some other time frame that put the formation of that desire before the crash. Either he remembers her from their crossing paths in the diner where her mother worked (I think that was where he saw Kate before or at least was in a position to do so) and for some inexplicable reason hasn't told Kate that he saw her somewhere precrash or they went through programming together (or one of them was involved in programming the other) or-----.

Hi Weddo - yup, it sounds like we're both thinking along the same lines here with regard to the flashbacks being "false" or disguised memories.

Good point about Sawyer too - boy, it's good to have you on this thread! I've always wondered if there was more to that "4 years" comment that met the eye, and I do wonder if "Sawyer" and "Kate" knew each other before the crash. Don't forget that Kate's husband was working on papers connected to a case in Tampa when she drugged him, and that Sawyer was involved in a Tampa case too. Is it possible that Kate's "memory" of her husband actually relates to Sawyer himself?!

Liplock I do not know if your serious or joking but this is scary stuff and not to be taken lightly. Digging into this stuff can cause alot of problems for a person, beond making comparisons to LOST it is a can of worms you do not want to open. Not to mention what it does to your "head'. It an also be all consumming and its a road that leads to no good!

I've had 'white noise' on my phone, the whirring and clicking that begins on the line when I greet a friend, a brother-in-law 'outed' as a dangerous political radical unfit for his teaching position (he has since been promoted) on the front page on a national newspaper and - memorably and to no small amusement - a hand written letter entrusted to HM Post Office received by the addressee as a photocopy! :biggrin:

Makes me sleep soundly nights knowing Big Brother is watching (over) me. Albeit somewhat ineptly. :rolleyes:

(my in-law came to the attention of the authorities for organizing trade unions in SA under apartheid in case you was wondering)

Wish I had something clever to add... but short of thinking Kate's a 'natural' born killer and may have been fixed by Ben if he'd had his two weeks with her... I don't. :undecide:

wj60608 recently asked me (as a London-based Brit) to confirm whether or not Penny’s London phone number sounded correct. Well, it wasn’t - in either year. And it has some interesting implications which I thought I’d share with you.

PENNY GAVE DES A LONDON DIALING CODE WHICH DIDN’T EXIST UNTIL 2000:

In 1996, Penny told Desmond that her telephone number was 7 946 0893. Now the “7” prefix is the important bit because the dialing codes for London have changed a few times since the mid-90s. And Penny gave the wrong one for 1996. She said it was just “7” but that didn’t come into use until 2000 - and even then, it only works if you’re calling from within London (otherwise you need to use the entire London dialing code of “0207”). So if that scene was really taking place in 1996, she should’ve (and indeed would’ve) given a London dialing code of “0171”.

I admit I had to check on wikipedia exactly when the dialing codes changed, but I remember it happening very clearly - basically because everyone was annoyed at having to keep re-learning their own phone numbers! Now even though Lost is written (mainly?) by Americans, the point is that this dialing code information is very easy to locate so it’s a bit of a stupid mistake to make. Also, the actors in those specific scenes are all British (and Naveen’s even from London) so presumably someone would’ve pointed out the possibility of an error during filming. Not to mention the fact that any phone numbers used in films or tv shows are unassigned “dummies” provided specifically by the phone companies themselves - basically to ensure that some poor sod in Cheyne Walk doesn’t get inundated with phone calls by curious Lost fans! Which makes me think that the “error” was totally intentional and that it’s some kind of clue.

I think it was telling us that the Penny scene wasn’t really happening in 1996, because she gave a phone number which didn’t even exist until 4 years later. Which means that it had to have been Desmond’s present-day consciousness just imagining it. In other words, NO TIME TRAVEL!

However, the fact that the call went through successfully to Penny in 2004 suggests that Des had to have got the number from somewhere, and at some point after 2000 (ie. when the “7” prefix came into use). One possibility is that he’d been pre-programmed with the telephone number, and was only able to access that memory at a certain point. In which case, the programmer had to have been a Londoner or spent time in London to know that the “7” prefix would sound more convincing than the entire “0207” London dialling code. Although, of course, we don’t know for sure that Sayid dialed the same number that Des gave him.

DES GAVE SAYID AN INCOMPLETE LONDON DIALING CODE:

The number Des gave Sayid would’ve been the right one to dial in 2004 if they’d been calling from within London. But seeing as they’re supposedly on an island somewhere between Sydney and Los Angeles, they should’ve used the entire London dialing code of (0)207 as well as the international code for England. In other words, the specific number Des gave Sayid shouldn’t have connected - but it did. Here are some possible explanations.

Either “the island” is actually somewhere in London, and that’s why that “7” dialing code connected successfully. Yeah, right!

Or all numbers dialed from that phone / the freighter automatically connect with Penny.

Or Sayid called a different number to the one Desmond gave him. Which would suggest that he’s secretly working in tandem with Penny to know how to get in contact with her.

Or Sayid recognised the number as being from London and automatically knew which extra digits to add to the partial dialing code provided. But how would he know this? I don’t think Des has ever told Sayid (or anyone else, come to think of it) where his girlfriend lived - she could be from Scotland just like Des, or she could be based anywhere in the world. And, as far as we’re aware, Sayid hasn’t spent any real length of time in England recently. Plus, even if he’d been educated here (ie. because of his impeccable English), that would’ve been years ago when the dialing code was different yet again. So I reckon it’s yet another clue - basically that “Sayid” is really a Londoner and therefore knew the “intricacies” of our dialing codes.


SOME MORE STUFF ABOUT CHARLIE:

Driveshaft’s Pace brothers are an obvious nod to the Gallagher brothers in Oasis - Charlie even sang one of their major hits, ‘Wonderwall’, whilst busking in Desmond’s flashback. OK, if his brother represents Liam Gallagher, then this means that Charlie represents Noel. Interesting, then, that Charlie died 2 days before Christmas.

Charlie had a tattoo taken from the lyrics of The Beatles’ ‘Strawberry Fields Forever’. It’s a bit freaky that the song also includes the line “Nothing to get hung about”, and Charlie was (allegedly!) hanged by Ethan. And it could be relevant that other lines include “Misunderstanding all you see” and “Nothing is real”. Coincidence or clue? (And yes, I’m aware that the tattoo is supposedly Dom’s own).

ANOTHER “SAYID IS HARRY LIME, THE THIRD MAN” CLUE?

Remember Sayid’s episode in Paris, when he was kidnapped and tortured by the husband of one of his torture victims? The storyline was inspired by a play (and later movie) called Death and the Maiden, about a vengeful former torture victim. The play takes its name from a famous piece of classical music by Franz Schubert. Who was born in Vienna. Which is where The Third Man is set!

A PLANE FULL OF CORPSES - I TOLD YOU SO?!

Back in September, I posted a theory here that the fake Flight 815 which was headed to the island was filled with corpses to make the later crash-site look convincing:-


The Oceanic plane did explode overhead but was empty apart from a few “prop” (but real) corpses to make the later cockpit crash site convincing;

[and from a subsequent post]

Now think [Christian’s] coffin always was empty - a metaphor for “empty” Oceanic plane full of rotting corpses. Note that makers say nose-section set stank because of surrounding rotting vegetation; could’ve been indirect way of telling us that it actually stank in the story but for creepier reasons.

Well, we’ve now learnt that Widmore supposedly purchased an out-of-commission airplane and filled it with corpses, before dropping it into the ocean to disguise the real whereabouts of Flight 815 and its survivors on the island. But I still think it’s possible that the “plane crash” on the island used the actual crash of Flight 815 (which ended up in that trench) as ITS cover-story. In which case, Hildy’s theory could be correct!

Hildy, I love this stuff and I'd like your take on something. I posted this somewhere around here recently, if it was here everyone please forgive me, but didn't much if any response. We "saw" Ben's purported birth in a flashback but who's flashback was it? His parents are both dead and it is unlikely that he remembers his own birth and impossible for him to remember the immediately preceding circumstances. At most, it could have been a memory of what his father told him but it also could be a completely false version that was planted in the manner that you have suggested. Am I missing something?

Dr. Suds, what did Dave say --- I'm drawing a blank.

I thought it was his father's flashback? Guess I need to watch again.
100%
wj60608 recently asked me (as a London-based Brit) to confirm whether or not Penny’s London phone number sounded correct. Well, it wasn’t - in either year. And it has some interesting implications which I thought I’d share with you.

PENNY GAVE DES A LONDON DIALING CODE WHICH DIDN’T EXIST UNTIL 2000:

“error” was totally intentional and that it’s some kind of clue.

DES GAVE SAYID AN INCOMPLETE LONDON DIALING CODE:

The number Des gave Sayid would’ve been the right one to dial in 2004 if they’d been calling from within London. But seeing as they’re supposedly on an island somewhere between Sydney and Los Angeles, they should’ve used the entire London dialing code of (0)207 as well as the international code for England. In other words, the specific number Des gave Sayid shouldn’t have connected - but it did. Here are some possible explanations.

Or Sayid recognised the number as being from London and automatically knew which extra digits to add to the partial dialing code provided. But how would he know this? I don’t think Des has ever told Sayid (or anyone else, come to think of it) where his girlfriend lived - she could be from Scotland just like Des, or she could be based anywhere in the world. And, as far as we’re aware, Sayid hasn’t spent any real length of time in England recently. Plus, even if he’d been educated here (ie. because of his impeccable English), that would’ve been years ago when the dialing code was different yet again. So I reckon it’s yet another clue - basically that “Sayid” is really a Londoner and therefore knew the “intricacies” of our dialing codes.

A PLANE FULL OF CORPSES - I TOLD YOU SO?!

Back in September, I posted a theory here that the fake Flight 815 which was headed to the island was filled with corpses to make the later crash-site look convincing:-

Well, we’ve now learnt that Widmore supposedly purchased an out-of-commission airplane and filled it with corpses, before dropping it into the ocean to disguise the real whereabouts of Flight 815 and its survivors on the island. But I still think it’s possible that the “plane crash” on the island used the actual crash of Flight 815 (which ended up in that trench) as ITS cover-story. In which case, Hildy’s theory could be correct!

I think most people caught the fact that Sayid didn't dial near enough numbers to reach England, however, I'm not so sure the writers put too much thought into it. I'm probebly wrong. If the writers were thinking, than I'm going for the most likely scenerio that Penny knows what she is doing because she is also either time-shifting or her father is and they are working together. Remember, Sayid was a communications officer, so HE WOULD BE FAMILIAR with London numbers for 2004. He didn't blink when Des gave him the number and Des never tried to explain the prefix, etc. I think Sayid predialed a part of the number.

THE STAGED CRASH. Widmore tells everyone that BEN staged the crash. BEN is telling everyone that Widmore is staging the crash. BOTH Ben and Widmore KNOW the crash was not staged! Remember the RABBIT? THE POLAR BEARS?
If people can be duplicated, it appears their memories can be as well, but NOT anything metal! I believe this is an interesting clue!

Remember, Sayid was a communications officer, so HE WOULD BE FAMILIAR with London numbers for 2004. He didn't blink when Des gave him the number and Des never tried to explain the prefix, etc. I think Sayid predialed a part of the number.


Hmmm, not sure I agree with you there. Why would being a communications officer make Sayid an expert on London dialling codes - surely he’d be dealing with radio more? And whilst I agree that maybe I’m reading into the 2004 use of Penny’s phone number than perhaps was intended, I still think the fact that she gave Des a non-existent phone number back in 1996 is a real clue.

Also, sorry to sound dim but when did Widmore announce that Ben had staged the crash? Which epi, please! (I’ve missed a couple this season thanks to my temperamental HD recorder!). And has either Widmore or Ben ever specifically said that the crash WASN’T staged, or are you just reading into that? I’m not trying to be argumentative - merely curious!

Hmmm, not sure I agree with you there. Why would being a communications officer make Sayid an expert on London dialling codes - surely he’d be dealing with radio more? And whilst I agree that maybe I’m reading into the 2004 use of Penny’s phone number than perhaps was intended, I still think the fact that she gave Des a non-existent phone number back in 1996 is a real clue.

Also, sorry to sound dim but when did Widmore announce that Ben had staged the crash? Which epi, please! (I’ve missed a couple this season thanks to my temperamental HD recorder!). And has either Widmore or Ben ever specifically said that the crash WASN’T staged, or are you just reading into that? I’m not trying to be argumentative - merely curious!

They had cell phones in 1996, right? Anyway, if there are spies in the US I'm sure there are spies everywhere and Sayid would need to know how to communicate with his people around the globe.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Ji_Yeon
Is a good link to find the Captian explaining to Sayid and Desmond how Widmore believes the crash was staged by Ben. Frank also told Sayid that Widmore believed him when he expressed to Widmore that he believed the crash sight was a fake.
Sorry, if I mislead you. Ben and Widmore blame each other for staging the crash, but MY THEORY IS that no one staged the crash.

Also, sorry to sound dim but when did Widmore announce that Ben had staged the crash? Which epi, please! (I’ve missed a couple this season thanks to my temperamental HD recorder!). And has either Widmore or Ben ever specifically said that the crash WASN’T staged, or are you just reading into that? I’m not trying to be argumentative - merely curious![/quote]


Well time for me to chime in. I've floated all around the "Lage" looking at the different theories that would make the MOST sense of the LOST mystery. I have FOUND the place I was looking for, here. It's going to take a while for me to read ALL of this thread. Hildy is a deep person, with deep thoughts and passions about this show. From what i have read, she is also someone who IS on the right track, IMO. And not just little bits and pieces of the show, but rather the BIG picture. I'm glad to see that i'm not the only one who feels and sees this. This is a great thread, i mean i throw out my own theory that i had worked on for a yr (and was about to post) after just few emails with Hildy.

Thanks M - blimey, praise indeed! But don't throw out your own theory, share it with us because all ideas are worthwhile (and also because I can't bear the thought of you toiling over a theory for a year then throwing it out the window when you read this one - mine might not be right, you know!). We CAN work this thing out together!

Thanks M - blimey, praise indeed! But don't throw out your own theory, share it with us because all ideas are worthwhile (and also because I can't bear the thought of you toiling over a theory for a year then throwing it out the window when you read this one - mine might not be right, you know!). We CAN work this thing out together!

Let me correct a typo that i spotted after reading my qoute in this message. There should have been a "what seemed like" before the yr. It was closer to 6 months. Hildy, thank you for offering my a place to post my theory. But trust me, it doesn't have anything CLOSE to the depth of yours. Mine only deals with a possible origin for the basic story of LOST, and a possible location of the island. But after reading all the thought and facts that you have put into your theory, i looked at mine and trust me(again) it has more holes then a screen door:rolleyes: . I'm currently on pg 5 of your thread, and if i see anything of my theory that will help support yours I'll put it in with yours.

Mx

Thanks M - blimey, praise indeed! But don't throw out your own theory, share it with us because all ideas are worthwhile (and also because I can't bear the thought of you toiling over a theory for a year then throwing it out the window when you read this one - mine might not be right, you know!). We CAN work this thing out together!

Great call Hildy! Looking forward to hearing more theories! :)

Remember, Sayid was a communications officer, so HE WOULD BE FAMILIAR with London numbers for 2004. He didn't blink when Des gave him the number and Des never tried to explain the prefix, etc. I think Sayid predialed a part of the number.
Sayid lived in Paris for a while and he spent time in London... the latter was mentioned, altho not shown, in one of his early fb's. It's not a leap therefore to think he might have known the international dialing code for London. I didn't have a problem with the scene.. even tho we didn't see him dial it, I can let that go..

Sayid lived in Paris for a while and he spent time in London... the latter was mentioned, altho not shown, in one of his early fb's. It's not a leap therefore to think he might have known the international dialing code for London. I didn't have a problem with the scene.. even tho we didn't see him dial it, I can let that go..

lostmio brings up a good point. We have seen so much LOST there is no way to remember every little detail. For me, I'm lucky to remember my car keys! :biggrin:

Thanks lostmio for finding the details I forgot!

Hey guys - ok, Hildy concedes that as a communications officer Sayid would’ve been aware of international dialling codes (yeah, I’d overlooked cellphones, Too2Strange!). So maybe (just maybe!)I am reading too much into that aspect of the episode. But I still think it’s relevant that the phone number that Penny gave Des back in 1996 didn’t even exist back in 1996. And I still think it’s a clue that the scene wasn’t really taking place in 1996, it was merely in Desmond’s imagination. But I’m willing to be proved wrong. Kind of.

H x

Hey guys - ok, Hildy concedes that as a communications officer Sayid would’ve been aware of international dialling codes (yeah, I’d overlooked cellphones, Too2Strange!). So maybe (just maybe!)I am reading too much into that aspect of the episode. But I still think it’s relevant that the phone number that Penny gave Des back in 1996 didn’t even exist back in 1996. And I still think it’s a clue that the scene wasn’t really taking place in 1996, it was merely in Desmond’s imagination. But I’m willing to be proved wrong. Kind of.

H x

What about this... Penny KNEW Desmond was going to need her phone number because she has been told by her father who has flashed back to 1996? I think Penny knows what is going on and was recruited by her father at one point. Than, later, regrets her decision to help her father and now really just wants Desmond back. Comments, ideas?

I still think it’s relevant that the phone number that Penny gave Des back in 1996 didn’t even exist back in 1996. And I still think it’s a clue that the scene wasn’t really taking place in 1996, it was merely in Desmond’s imagination.
How about it really took place, but in 2000 or later?

I'm starting to think Sayid's line to Benry in the Armory O' Interrogation, "You would remember!", was not just a statement but a complaint that Benry had skimped on his job.

Robert

Too2Strange - yup, I think Penny DID know Desmond was going to need her number at some point in the future. But I don’t think it’s a case of someone time-travelling back to give her the number to give to him. Sorry, but I still don’t think there’s any actual time-travelling going on on the show. Being made to think you’re existing in one year when you’re actually in another, yes. Although I realise I’m totally alone on this one!

Doc - it’s very possible that scene with Penny did take place in 2000 (or even later?), if it actually happened in the first place. In fact, maybe the whole point is that EVERYTHING is happening at least 4 years later than we assume it to be? But I still think that Des was merely remembering the encounter (whether real or contrived) rather than actually experiencing it in the flesh when he “flashed” whilst on the freighter. Alternatively, what if he’d been pre-programmed with that fake memory, to explain how he’d suddenly know the number? Can anyone think of anything in those surrounding scenes on the freighter which might’ve triggered his eventual recollection? I realise I’m probably clutching at straws here but I definately think we’re onto something.

And I totally agree that there was probably more to Sayid’s “you would remember” statement than met the eye. Same with Charlie’s comment to Des that “memories are all we have”. And Jack’s “it doesn’t matter who we were” to Kate. In fact, I think when we finally get the big reveal, we’ll realise there were alot of hidden meanings behind alot of the dialogue on the show.

H x
100%
ARCTIC LISTENING STATION SCENE - A DISGUISED MEMORY?

Still on Penny’s possible/probable involvement in the REAL rescue mission. I’ve been wondering about that listening station scene at the end of S2, because I think there’s more to it than meets the eye. In fact, I’m starting to question whether it’s actually a disguised memory belonging to either Claire or Charlie, since both featured in the scene immediately preceding. And I think it shows that whoever had that disguised memory was subconsciously aware that Penny would be sending help at some point in the near future. But it’s quite complicated to explain, and it hinges on alot of “what ifs” and theoretical backstory that I’ve been proposing in this entire thread. Anyway, here goes ...

I’ve suggested that Jack and Desmond (as we now know them) are brothers who switched places whilst hiding out in the Swan following some kind of uprising on the island (ie. either The Purge, or the events which prompted the eventual “purge” of trouble-makers). MF’s character is really called Robert Shephard (ie. Rousseau’s Robert, and heading the unethical experiments being conducted on the island); HIC’s character is really Jack the miracle surgeon from LA. Because Jack had only recently arrived on the island to visit his brother, his presence wasn’t known by those leading the uprising - this is why Robert could safely assume his identity in order to escape and fetch help. Because Robert was wanted by those leading the uprising, it was necessary to give his brother a bogus Scottish identity for his own protection (ie. it’s a cryptic clue based on the Scottish legend of Robert the Bruce and the importance of perseverance in adversity).

OK - 2 men hiding out in the Swan. One played by Matthew Fox. One played by Henry Ian Cusick. The two men in the listening station are called Matthias and Henrik.

The listening station is either in the arctic or antarctic, where the usual form of habitat is the igloo. The computer room in the Swan resembles an igloo.

According to lostpedia (I didn’t spot it, anyway!), the listening station scene opens with a brief excerpt of Mama Cass’s “Make Your Own Kind of Music” - the same song “Desmond” put on in the Swan hatch at the start of S2. In other words, the music is a clue that one of the people in that listening station scene represents Desmond.

The 2 men in the listening station speak portuguese. Jack “remembers” spending time in Phuket in Thailand. And according to lostmio, Portuguese is also spoken in Phuket. In other words, the language spoken is a clue that one of the men in that listening station scene represents Jack.

Len Cordova who (allegedly!) played Mathias looks alot like Jack/Matthew Fox. I’ve always contended that this was the whole point - that Penny was in contact with someone who looked like Jack but it wasn’t Jack. In other words, MF’s character assumed the identity of Jack, and the real Jack is actually Henry Ian Cusick. I still think Penny helped MF’s character get back to the island to rescue HIC’s character - since she refers to Desmond by his assumed name when she spoke with Charlie, it seems likely that she therefore has to be in on the whole “assumed identity as a disguise” angle.

There’s a photo of a blond child in the background of the listening station scene - the implication seems to be that she’s the child of one of the men. And Claire features in the scene immediately preceding. I think the photo means that Claire is the child of either Jack or Desmond! And I’ve previously suggested that Jack’s memories of Achara relate to Claire (since both women had dark hair whilst working in tattoo parlours), as some kind of “ultimate taboo” - ie. he “remembers” Achara to prevent him getting any closer to Juliet. (Forget about Jack and Juliet’s S4 kiss - he instigated it, but I think the hypnosis keeping everyone in character was switched off at the end of S3).

So if that listening station scene is a disguised memory related to Penny’s involvement in the actual rescue mission, who’s memory was it? I can’t decide, so I’ll give you the arguments for both Claire and Charlie:-

CLAIRE - blond, possibly the daughter of Jack or Desmond. And flashbacks already “confirm” she’s related to one of them anyway. So the photograph in the scene could be a hint that it’s her P.O.V. (Actually, I wonder if Claire was raised as the daughter of one of the men, but is actually the daughter of the other one - just to complicate matters further!).

CHARLIE - I still reckon the Swan hatch used magnetic forces as some kind of mind control, and this (as much as the time constraints of the numbers task) kept Desmond imprisoned down there. So when Des triggered the magnetic anomally, he released a mega-dose of mind control - his “flashes” weren’t him traveling back in time, he was merely receiving a mega-dose of the implanted memories he’d been provided with. Now, the listening station scene occurred AFTER Charlie had escaped the hatch implosion - so perhaps it’s possible that he also OD’d on mind control, and it interfered with the bogus persona/memories he’d been provided with for the mission. In other words, he had a brief memory which adhered closer to the truth. It was still a disguised memory (ie. since he’d been under the “spell” for so long), but it contained more elements of the truth than before. The memory featured “Claire’s” photograph partly because her kiss prompted the memory in the first place; but also because he’s subconsciously aware that she’s there to help rescue her father - or the man she’s been raised to think of as her father.

Thoughts, please!

H x

wow, hildy! You really should write a show for TV!
Sorry, didn't mean to say they were Time Travelling... Mind Traveling?
Can't wait for Thursday!!!!

wow, hildy! You really should write a show for TV!
Sorry, didn't mean to say they were Time Travelling... Mind Traveling?
Can't wait for Thursday!!!!

Cheers, luv! Although maybe what you’re actually saying is that I obviously have too much spare time on my hands to come up with such complex and wacky scenarios! I am rather excited about that Henrik and Matthias thang though.

Hmmm, “mind travelling”. I’m not sure. I suppose it is an acceptable term, just not in the way it was described in ‘The Contant’. That suggested that the mind of the person transports itself from one year to another, and is then able to use their present-day consciousness to affect things in that previous time. But I still think it’s more to do with vivid recall of things in their past, whether using real or manipulated memories. And being made to think you’re in one year (ie. Island, 2004) when it’s actually another year (2010?). Which in effect, means that someone’s 2010 consciousness IS being used to affect something which seems to be in 2004 - even if it isn’t really. Does this make sense? So I suppose the term does fit, just not in the way we've been led to believe.

And whaddaya mean, you can’t wait for Thursday?! You’re getting a new episode this Thursday?!?!?! Us Limey’s have to wait until the end of the month, darnit. OK, just checked Lostpedia - it’s a repeat, not a new one. Phew.

H x

Cheers, luv! Although maybe what you’re actually saying is that I obviously have too much spare time on my hands to come up with such complex and wacky scenarios! I am rather excited about that Henrik and Matthias thang though.

And whaddaya mean, you can’t wait for Thursday?! You’re getting a new episode this Thursday?!?!?! Us Limey’s have to wait until the end of the month, darnit. OK, just checked Lostpedia - it’s a repeat, not a new one. Phew.

H x

I'm sure you are busy surviving like the rest of us. I totally understand what it is like to be addicted to LOST. :biggrin:

Yes, LOST comes out Thursday evenings here, (MONTANA). We saw the repeated episode last week, suppose to be new this week. On the web sites the Web Host post Warnings for Spoilers for those overseas, because you have not seen the show yet. I know it may seem like torture, but you have to remind yourself that patience is a virtue! ;)

I would gladly miss an episode of LOST if it ment coming to visit London. I've always wanted to see Great Britian. How do you feel about Beckham coming over to the US? Or, you may not be into soccer/football?

Yes, LOST comes out Thursday evenings here, (MONTANA). We saw the repeated episode last week, suppose to be new this week.

sorry to pop your bubble, but the new episodes don't begin until April 24th,
even in Montana...
100%

The 2 men in the listening station speak portuguese. Jack “remembers” spending time in Thailand. And according to lostmio, Portuguese is also spoken in Thailand.

In other words, the language spoken is a clue that one of the men in that listening station scene represents Jack.

Actually, it's in Phuket specifically that Portuguese is one of the 2 major languages. The other there is Chinese.

And as you know, I don't think Mathias represents Jack, I think he IS Jack..


I enjoy reading your take on this - and other - things, Hildy.

You and I both agree that Jack and Des are twinned not only symbolically but also in the plot.
The difference between us is that you see it all as a kind of game or con. I think it was pretty straight: Jack did a Swan tour, never saw the outside of the island, beyond the 108-minute travel distance so didn't recognize anything or know he was back on "that" island when 815 crashed. It wasn't until he dropped down the hatch and saw the Swan that he put it together. If you rewatch MoSMoF with that scenario in mind, it explains a lot of Jack's bizarre actions and reactions.

Re the arctic scene, I'm still trying to unravel the timing that allow Jack and Mathias to be the same person. Either the scene was a flashforward or it's due to the island properties. Flashforward makes more sense.

Interesting ideas about Jack and Desmond being twins in some sense of the word...and both of them are wearing the bright blue shirt lately...not that that's a major clue, but it's an interesting, IMHO, connection...

No new shows until the end of April? Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

Hey Too2Strange - erm, thanks for asking my opinion on Beckham but I’m not really into football. Too busy watching and analysing Lost - here’s to the end of April, eh?!

Lostmio - really glad to get your input on this one, seeing as it was your initial idea that Jack is Matthias which has kept this scene bubbling away in my head. I do agree with you in that I think Matthias is the character portrayed by Matthew Fox and we currently know him as Jack. I just think he’s disguised as Matthias in Charlie/Claire’s distorted memory, rather than appearing as “himself”. Apologies if I didn’t make myself clear. Although if my theory is right, then perhaps it’d be fairer to say that Matthias is actually Robert Shephard!

And sorry for confusing Phuket with Thailand as a whole - I’d forgotten that was what you said about the Portuguese language thang.

VERY interesting take on Jack’s story preceding and following the crash. I like it. A lot. Especially because it does indeed explain some of Jack’s strange behavior in MoSMoF. Perhaps here’s a good place for you and me to remind people that the commentary to that epi could be interpreted as confirming that Jack had been down in the Swan previously?! But I still think that Jack’s return to the island was no accident, and that he made it happen. Not necessarily by organising the crash, but rather that he smuggled himself onto a plane which he knew was headed to the island and was intended to explode overhead.

Juniebun - good pick-up on Des and Jack both wearing bright blue shirts. I also wondered if that could be a clue that the 2 characters are linked.

H x

But I still think that Jack’s return to the island was no accident, and that he made it happen. Not necessarily by organising the crash, but rather that he smuggled himself onto a plane which he knew was headed to the island .
Hildy, I like the idea and keep trying to make it work, but rewatches of the S1 episodes don't justify it. If Jack had deliberately flown back to the island, then he would have expected to see the Swan again, would have known there was fresh water inland, etc. Given the Losties situation, he would even have wanted to find the Swan - for the food, if nothing else. The S1 episodes imo don't support that.

As it was, Jack was majorly spooked when he entered the Swan, couldn't believe what he was seeing that again. He was more rattled about that than anything before or since.
100%
Perhaps here’s a good place for you and me to remind people that the commentary to that epi could be interpreted as confirming that Jack had been down in the Swan previously?!
For anyone wondering, here's what was on the commentary:
Darlton, as Jack was exploring the hatch/Swan by flashlight, made a pointed comment about how 'it's funny how something familiar looks strange, when you haven't seen it in a long time'.
At the time they did the commentary, it hadn't been long at all since viewers - and tptb - had seen the Swan, which didn't implode until the finale. I think it was a wink about Jack trying to make sense of what he was seeing.
That comments not why I think Jack was a hatch bunny; I based that upon a lot of other things, but the comment makes sense with my theory...

Hey Lostmio - I do understand what you’re getting at, and I do see your point about Jack’s behavior and reactions in S1. But my theory is that Jack had programmed himself in preparation for his return to the island, and had arranged for certain hypnotic prompts to be in place there (most likely the sight of the blood on the man under landing gear and/or successfully reviving Rose), which would turn him into “Jack Shephard, miracle surgeon” once and for all. In other words, as far as he’s now concerned he IS that person, and his arrival on that island was a pure accident - even though it was actually pre-planned. This is why he doesn’t consciously remember anything about the island any more.

I think his original intention was to fly to the island specifically to rescue Desmond, and perhaps other members of his family he’d been forced to leave behind, before seeking revenge against the people who’d wrecked his previous lofty position there. But the plan went wrong when Desmond switched off the magnetic anomally too soon, and the cockpit (with Jack as the missing third member of the flight crew) failed to reach its ultimate target. The cockpit crashes somewhere in the middle of the jungle, Jack’s disoriented, the clock’s ticking, and he’s forced to take up his position in amongst the rest of the fake survivors on the beach. (In fact, I bet this lack of time angle explains why he didn’t even make it as far as the beach). And to maintain his disguise, he then had to go along with the pre-arranged hypnotic prompts which would turn him into “Jack Shephard” - even though he realised it would hamper his efforts to find his brother since he’d no longer remember that he even had a brother!

And even he he couldn’t consciously work out why he was so wary of entering the Swan hatch, it was his subconscious memory of what had happened down there previously (ie. why he’d been forced to hide out down there, and who he’d been forced to leave behind) which made him act so nervously. I honestly can’t think of any other explanation for his reaction otherwise. I mean, if like you say, he’d been down there previously and was shocked to find himself back on that island after a genuine airliner accident, wouldn’t he mention to someone “hey, this place sure looks familiar”?!

I just don’t think his (presumed!) return to the island was an accident. Sorry. But I AM willing to be persuaded otherwise. How/why do you think he went back to the island?

H x

Interesting thread for sure ... I've gradually made my way through it after popping in on it now and then. I've had similar suspicions about Jack for a long time as well, starting with his strange jungle "crash" location away from everyone else in the Pilot's opening scene to his tattoos, seating location, etc. I'll try to formulate my own version of things when I get a break from work, probably not until the big 9 month (coincidence?) hiatus.

Regarding people starting to remember things differently, or their proper memories returning etc., I noticed in a recent interview TPTB make some interesting comments on "consciousness time travel" as basically a form of memory recovery/realization of a false memory that jibes well with many points/observations made in this thread by Hildy and others.
If you haven't read it yet, you should, and the interview can be found at: http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html

I've spoilered what I see to be the crucial relevant quote from TPTB on this:


DL: And the coolest thing about consciousness time travel is, you know, you're sort of a slave to your memory. So if Desmond travels back in time and he remembers that a certain team beat another team in a football game (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html#), and then something different happens, we're hinting at the idea that the future has changed, when in fact he just remembered it wrong, which is kinda cool for us.

I just don’t think his (presumed!) return to the island was an accident. Sorry. But I AM willing to be persuaded otherwise. How/why do you think he went back to the island?

H x

What if he was on the Island as a child with his father Christian? :eek2:

Neither do I believe it was an accident, but that Christian arranged for both of his children to land there.

Posters in other threads have drawn what I think is a fascinating connection /similarity between the way Ben came to in the desert (body position among other things) and the way Jack came to in the jungle. It seems certain that Ben didn't arrive in Tunisia by conventional means.

And even he he couldn’t consciously work out why he was so wary of entering the Swan hatch, it was his subconscious memory of what had happened down there previously (ie. why he’d been forced to hide out down there, and who he’d been forced to leave behind) which made him act so nervously. I honestly can’t think of any other explanation for his reaction otherwise. I mean, if like you say, he’d been down there previously and was shocked to find himself back on that island after a genuine airliner accident, wouldn’t he mention to someone “hey, this place sure looks familiar”?!
In my theory, Jack was a hatch bunny like Des, so only saw the Swan interior and the surrounding area to which he could travel in 108 minutes. During S1, he didn't recognize any of the beach or jungle area because they were beyond the 108-minute radius. When he finally went down the hatch and entered the Swan, he DID recognize it and it shocked the holy daylights out of him.
He didn't tell the other Losties because a) he doesn't wasn't to reveal that part of his life, and b) being Jack, he wanted to figure out what was going on first and maybe come up with a ;) "plan".

I just don’t think his (presumed!) return to the island was an accident. Sorry. But I AM willing to be persuaded otherwise. How/why do you think he went back to the island? I still think it was an accident , from his perspective. He landed back on the island for exactly the reason we saw in the pilot: a naive passenger bringing his dad's body home.

That said, I'm a conspiracy buff like Frank. It's spooky that he ended up back on the same island. There's more to the story about why Christian was in OZ, and it ties into Dharma and the island. I think most of the Losties were manuvered onto 815. I just don't see how Jack was, it would have been hard to work out the timing to get him on that flight, that day. Of course there's always the possibility that the whole 815 crash gig was arranged to happen whatever day Jack boarded the plane, right?
Claire, Sayid, and Sawyer were handed tickets on very short notice, within a time frame that would have let watchers know which flight Jack planned to book.
Most of the others seemed to have arrangements in place for at least a few days.

I still think it was an accident , from his perspective. He landed back on the island for exactly the reason we saw in the pilot: a naive passenger bringing his dad's body home.

That said, I'm a conspiracy buff like Frank. It's spooky that he ended up back on the same island. There's more to the story about why Christian was in OZ, and it ties into Dharma and the island. I think most of the Losties were manuvered onto 815. I just don't see how Jack was, it would have been hard to work out the timing to get him on that flight, that day. Of course there's always the possibility that the whole 815 crash gig was arranged to happen whatever day Jack boarded the plane, right?
Claire, Sayid, and Sawyer were handed tickets on very short notice, within a time frame that would have let watchers know which flight Jack planned to book.
Most of the others seemed to have arrangements in place for at least a few days.

Here is a strange thought... what if Jack was purposely trying to get onto flight 815 and was using his father's death as an excuse? Better: What if Christian PLANNED this whole thing and just used his son as a pawn? What if Christian is working for BEN?? OH, I'm going to have to start a new thread, huh?

I'm hung-up on Jack coming to in the jungle on his back with a gash on his side(?) similar to Ben's coming to in the jungle. Is it possible Jack used Ben's time/teleportation trick to finally get back to the island as we have seen him wanting to do in the FF and he hasn't been able to change anything yet, at least as far as we've seen? Although, as someone pointed out somewhere, Locke has commented "this isn't supposed to happen like this.

Of course there's always the possibility that the whole 815 crash gig was arranged to happen whatever day Jack boarded the plane, right?
Claire, Sayid, and Sawyer were handed tickets on very short notice, within a time frame that would have let watchers know which flight Jack planned to book.
Most of the others seemed to have arrangements in place for at least a few days.
I figured out the general timing recently. First they were all waiting until Kate gave birth. (I've still got to review Ana Lucia's time line to figure how her pregnancy was supposed to fit in to that.) That still gave them a little wiggle room, accepting that Aaron would look a little more mature than his date of "birth" to Claire would indicate. Probably Hugo's mother's "birthday" could be any date they desired. The misdated newspaper announcing the "death" of Mr. Zuckerman revealed a last minute change in plans, but for what I don't know. It wasn't for the "burial" of Sayid's "college buddy", that was all planned.

Robert

weddo - A poster named Sam posted links in the LOyal to the queST Thead of Jack and Locke when we first see them lying down on the Island and then one of Ben when he landed in Tunisa - the three of them are very similar. We've started talking about why the poses of the three guys could be similar. Use of the Orchid? Why don't Jack and Lock remember, though?

On a side note...something that I brought up in the thread that I mentioned above...does anyone think that Ben's bad cut on his arm is a lesser version of what happened to Dr. Candle and Montand...and for the same reasons...caught in the Orchid during time travelling???

I'm hung-up on Jack coming to in the jungle on his back with a gash on his side(?) similar to Ben's coming to in the jungle. Is it possible Jack used Ben's time/teleportation trick to finally get back to the island as we have seen him wanting to do in the FF and he hasn't been able to change anything yet, at least as far as we've seen? Although, as someone pointed out somewhere, Locke has commented "this isn't supposed to happen like this.

Oh, my gosh, what a cool theory! So, the Pilot was a FF for Jack? Jack's first appearance was actually his second? Oh, how cool would that be! What about the Jack that is already there? Wouldn't that make TWO Jacks?

Too2strange, I venture into time issue speculation with great trepidation and the possibility of two Jacks is a problem that I don't know how to solve yet.
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Juniebun, thanks for the tip.

I Is it possible Jack used Ben's time/teleportation trick to finally get back to the island as we have seen him wanting to do in the FF and he hasn't been able to change anything yet, at least as far as we've seen? Then what happened to Jack after 815 crashed? Cindy and Rose both remembered him from the flight, so we know he was on it. When he came to on the island, he still had the vodka bottle in his pocket, the one that Cindy gave him.

I don't have an answer. I've been over to the other thread since I last posted and I have no memory of seeing Locke like that. Jack stuck in my mind because he was in the jungle rather than on the beach and I've been chewing on that ever since. Locke looks even more like Ben than Jack does. I find it hard to believe that there isn't something more at work than coincidence unless all three actors went to the same school of acting and came up with the same idea of how to portray the aftermath of a traumatic arrival. Maybe Jack's consciousness jumped like Desmond's did instead of his body but then he should have a memory of what happened before. Maybe that's why the Swan was familiar although the rest of the island should have been as well. Weren't there some discrpencies in what Desmond should have known from his jumps? I'm not advocating anything one way or another; I'm just trying to make sense of things and not doing a good job of it.

weddo - This is nothing concrete, either, just another LOST Obssessive throwing their two cents in...but...I have wondered since Kate came to get Jack at Otherville and he was playing the piano in one of the houses that that Jack, the one playing the piano, wasn't the real Jack...somehow...I am probably just senile, thanks to LOST, but I have to say that I've wondered if there were two Jacks on the Island for awhile. I've mentioned it semi-frequently in the LOyal to the queST Thread. Babbled about it might be a better description...LOL!

So, weddo...you aren't alone! Another one of my favorite mysteries of LOST has to do with the two "lookalikes" on Tom's boat when Tom and his crew kidnapped Walt. That scene with those two guys has been on my mind since it happened! I even asked Javi (old LOST writer) about it when he had a webpage where he'd answer your questions with a video. He answered my question and had two "Javis". Well, my question was something like, "Which word would describe those two guys that looked a lot alike on Tom's boat better - twins or clones?" He was funny in his response, but couldn't directly answer it, he said...

Too2strange, I venture into time issue speculation with great trepidation and the possibility of two Jacks is a problem that I don't know how to solve yet.
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Juniebun, thanks for the tip.

oooh! Oh! What if Jack tries to kill himself on the mainland... remember he tried this before and instead of dying lands on the Island, AGAIN! Like going in circles! SO... Jack dies on the mainland, but shows up on the Island only to live through it again!
So, this would explain when Locke's father told him about the accident and than ends up on the Island. The Island will not let Locke's father die, either! Wow, the Island can pick some loosers! Desmonds jump to the past could explain how he doesn't remember the future Des only the past. So Jack wouldn't remember the future Jack... but, he would have a bad case of De javu! (Spelling?)
Still, I think maybe someone is controlling the worm hole and sends them back on purpose.. in otherwords it isn't the Island doing it but SOMEONE... Ben?

Juniebun, I am definitely senile and that isn't helping anything. I'm going to check out the whole LOyal to the queST thread. I've passed through a couple of times but must not have been paying attention. Anyway, two Jack's on the island doesn't tax my imagination in the least. In fact, I'm convinced that there are two Kates. I just don't see any other explanation for her bouncing back and forth between goofy, flirtatious Kate and strong, competent no-nonsense Kate. I know that few, if any, people are truly one-dimensional but Kate seems positively Sybil-like and surely the time has come to concentrate on something a little weightier than sunbathing. OK, I feel better.

I did think that it was strange that she was washing her armpits in one of the first scenes last week. I like kickbutt Kate a lot, but found it strange that any version of Kate would be doing that when all that's going on is going on...and I've seen people post ideas about some scenes when she has freckles and some when she doesn't mean that there's two different Kates...

Juniebun, I am definitely senile and that isn't helping anything. I'm going to check out the whole LOyal to the queST thread. I've passed through a couple of times but must not have been paying attention. Anyway, two Jack's on the island doesn't tax my imagination in the least. In fact, I'm convinced that there are two Kates. I just don't see any other explanation for her bouncing back and forth between goofy, flirtatious Kate and strong, competent no-nonsense Kate. I know that few, if any, people are truly one-dimensional but Kate seems positively Sybil-like and surely the time has come to concentrate on something a little weightier than sunbathing. OK, I feel better.

I think Kate MAY change her personality in order to get what ever it is she is after. She seems to protray a different side of herself depending on who she is talking to.
For some reason, right now, it SEEMS she is going after Jack, again. Why?

Oh gawd - TONS of stuff for me to comment on here! Thanks so much for keeping this thread going, guys.

OK, first off I think any suggestions that there are “two Jacks” could definately relate to my theory that Desmond is the real Jack Shephard and Matthew Fox’s character is the fake Jack. Sorry to sound like a cracked record about this, but I definately think I’m right about this one. PLEASE try and look at future episodes with this idea in mind - I’m sure it makes sense.

Also, Weddo suggests that maybe there are two Kates seeing as her character seems to be bouncing back and forth. I still reckon this is to do with the “mind control” being switched off at the end of S3, and everyone’s true personalities starting to emerge. After all, is it must me or is Sawyer becoming kinder and more caring by each passing episode?

Dufusbot - thanks for posting that quote (post #428), very interesting and it definately seems to echo my suggestion that the flashbacks are the losties’ distorted perception of what actually happened to them in their pasts. In fact, I still also think the flashforwards could be distorted memories rather than showing us what’s going to happen to them in the months/years ahead.

Too2Strange - definately agree that Jack has most likely been on that island a l-o-n-g time. But I still think Christian is a disgusied memory of someone else - my guess is Jack himself, actually. Or what he was before the “Crash”, as in “Bad Robert”.

Weddo - yeah, Ben’s arrival in the desert is a bit weird. Going out on a limb here, but if I’m right and the flashbacks/forwards are disguised memories, then it’s possible that the desert scene actually represents his initial arrival on the island itself. I dunno, I do wonder if it’ll eventually turn out that Ben DID arrive on the island in that balloon - hence why the Tunisians were puzzled why Ben hadn’t left any trails and appeared to have dropped out of the sky. Could be majorly wrong here though!

OK - new stuff based on this week’s amazing epi. I’ve got an inkling that “poorly Jack” could be a major turning point in the story. But I reckon there’s two possible ways that this one could go. Either he’s going to say something mind-blowingly weird but incredibly relevant whilst delirious or semi-conscious - just like Sawyer’s “why did you kill me?” to Kate whilst he was similarly incapacitated. After all, don’t forget that Jack told Claire in a very early episode that he’d been known to talk in his sleep and it had really freaked out his girlfriend at the time - this could finally be pay-off time regarding that particular comment of his. And I still reckon that if everyone has been “programmed”, then the effects are severely hampered when that person is dying or near death - hence why Libby looked so freaked out as she looked at Jack in her dying moments; and possibly the real reason for Charlie’s “Not Penny’s Boat” message to Des (ie. I still think he meant the boat belonged to “Not Penny”). So maybe Jack will mumble something which reveals that he’s not the person we all think he is.

Alternatively, I’ve got a sinking suspicion that Jack could die! Yeah I know - we’ve all seen him and alive and well(-ish!) in a flashforward, but I’ve already said I don’t think it’s showing what happens to the Losties in the years which follow the events we’re currently witnessing on the island. And if, as many of us suspect, he’s suffering from appendicitis, then I really don’t rate his chances of survival - it’s a life-threatening ailment at the best of times, and a secondary infection would be likely following an operation in none too sterile conditions.

If he did die (and believe me, I’m SO hoping I’m wrong on this one because he’s my fave character!), then it would blow our perception of what the flashforwards depict out of the water. And it would show that the ff’s had to be memories rather than scenes from characters’ futures . And that Jack and Kate HAD known each other previously. And therefore that they had to have been programmed in some way, to explain why they didn’t know each after after the “crash”. And it would mean that both had been on the island previously, in order for Jack to have been desperate to go back. So Jack’s death could have al sorts of interesting implications.

Also, I’m wondering if the fate of “Ray the freighter doctor” could be a clue to Jack’s impending demise - and to the real Jack (a.k.a Desmond) being alive on the freighter. As in, there’s one doctor dead on the island and another version of him alive and “fine” on the freighter.

Finally, the idea of someone dying from peritonitis immediately made me think of silent movie star Rudolph Valentino. So perhaps this would explain the festive “ho ho ho” clues in epi 4.1 (ie. they’re pointing to a non-reindeer Rudolph?), and Sun’s broken ballerina statue (since ballet star Rudolph Nureyev portrayed Valentino in Ken Russell’s biopic).

I SO hope I’m wrong about this though. Jack HAS to survive until the end of Lost.

Too2Strange - definately agree that Jack has most likely been on that island a l-o-n-g time. But I still think Christian is a disgusied memory of someone else - my guess is Jack himself, actually. Or what he was before the “Crash”, as in “Bad Robert”.

Alternatively, I’ve got a sinking suspicion that Jack could die! Yeah I know - we’ve all seen him and alive and well(-ish!) in a flashforward, but I’ve already said I don’t think it’s showing what happens to the Losties in the years which follow the events we’re currently witnessing on the island. ...

I believe Jack may have been on the Island a short time as a child, but because the writers made such an effort to let us know the FF episode were FF episodes, I feel certain they really are FF for Jack and Kate. However, SOMEONE may eventually get Jack back to the Island and I'm thinking it MAYBE be Hurley. Hurley MAY get visited again by Charlie and might find a way back.

Yeah, I need to check out what they’ve said specifically about flashforwards and the terms they’ve used to describe them. I mean, if the FF scenes are actually distorted memories of things which HAD happened post-2004 (just like I suspect all the on-island “current day” scenes are taking place post-2004 as well), then anything on the show could be called a flashforward if you think about it. Because everything would be set in the future compared to when the Losties think they are.

Like you, I also think there’ll be some important interaction or connection between Hurley and Jack in the future. And I do hope we haven’t seen the last of Charlie, dead or alive.

OK - a few thoughts following this week’s amazing episode. 

So Jack hasn’t mumbled anything weird or devastatingly revealing whilst unconscious .... yet! And he hasn’t popped his clogs,which would’ve confirmed my “dead doctor on island vs. fine doctor on freighter” clue theory .... yet! But it did strike me that it’s strange that Christian appeared in a vision to Claire whilst Jack was unconscious - just like Christian appeared to Jack whilst Claire had passed out from dehydration back in ‘White Rabbit’. And I still think Christian is Jack’s alter ego.

It also struck me that the passage from Alice in Wonderland which Jack read to Aaron (aw!) could be describing himself when he woke up on the island back in the pilot episode - as in, “ I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: Was I the same when I got up this morning?...If I'm not the same, the next question is, who in the world am I?” I still reckon Matthew Fox’s Jack is really Robert Shephard, and Desmond is really Jack Shephard - altho I realise I’m totally alone on this one.

I’m also wondering if it’s relevant that Kate sports a Rolex watch in the flashforward. It kind of connects her to Mr Paik, since he’d given Jin a whole batch of flashy Rolexes to give to valued clients.

Weird that Miles wants to be Claire’s protector and wears a black hoodie, just as Charlie wanted to be Claire’s protector and wore a black hoodie.

Is it just me, or was the Christian who appeared to Claire wearing a khaki t-shirt much like the one Jack sported for much of Season 2?

Lots of references to razors and hair ... or the lack of it! Including Jack’s strangely shaven chest in the flashforward; Kate buying him a razor in ff; and Juliet shaving his abdomen in preparation for the operation. I’m wondering if it relates to strength, control and the loss of it - like a Samson and Delilah type reference. Maybe it relates to him shaving himself as part of his initial disguise as Jack (ie. when he originally swapped places with the real Jack, as played by Henry Ian Cusick). In fact, now I think about it, didn’t Kelvin make some comment about how Des continued to shave whilst incarcerated in the Swan. Could this be proof that the two men are secretly connected?

H x

It also struck me that the passage from Alice in Wonderland which Jack read to Aaron (aw!) could be describing himself when he woke up on the island back in the pilot episode - as in, “ I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: Was I the same when I got up this morning?...If I'm not the same, the next question is, who in the world am I?”

I’m also wondering if it’s relevant that Kate sports a Rolex watch in the flashforward.
Weird that Miles wants to be Claire’s protector and wears a black hoodie, just as Charlie wanted to be Claire’s protector and wore a black hoodie. H x

1) Yes, that was so cool. POSSIBLY confirming the theory about the Losties being duplicated.
2) Oh, I missed the watch.. good catch. Is Kate protecting Sun? Is Kate really Sun? :eek2:
3) What if Claire is really a ghost, Miles is a ghost buster and knows this, so he wants to protect the baby... since Claire is really dead and all. Weird, I know, but have you met the writers? :biggrin:
I think Aaron was dead, but the Island healed him.. Just how does a dead person have a baby? Can dead people reproduce? Okay, so the LOSTIES are PROBABLY not dead. At least, not all of them. Those that Locke thinks the Island demands a sacrifice... are really the ones who survived, the rest just think they are alive. Walking dead people who don't know they are dead? Oh, too creepy!
But I am too2strange!
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Too2Strange - definately agree that Jack has most likely been on that island a l-o-n-g time...

Alternatively, I’ve got a sinking suspicion that Jack could die!

I SO hope I’m wrong about this though. Jack HAS to survive until the end of Lost.

1) When Ben wakes up in the desert he seems to be lying in the same position that Jack is in the Pilot. AS IF Jack was transported to the Island.
2) Remember Regina from the freighter. I'm THINKING she jumped to save her life in the past. To turn her life RIGHT side up. Just a weird theory which could mean...

3) Jack does die, but ends up back on the Island as we see him in the Pilot.. only this time he remembers more of the future and things go differently on the Island.
Remember, as Des jumped back the first time he didn't recognize anyone in the future conscience until he found a constant. So, Jack might die, go back, but this time have a constant and save the LOSTIES. Just a guess.


Just a theory, but I want to be careful so I wraped spoiler around it.

Yeah that whole Claire thing is a bit weird, especially since Miles is a “ghostbuster”. Not sure what to make of this yet, but her disappearance this week does seem to explain why Kate would be looking after Aaron in the future. It does seem a bit unbelievable that Claire could survive an exploding house ... but then no more unbelievable than a group of people surviving such a catastrophic plane crash. And the whole idea of Claire being dead does seem to tie in with FF Hurley’s speech about being dead. That scene really creeped me out. Again, not sure what to make of it yet.

Yup, Ben’s awakening in the desert did seem to echo Jack’s awakening in the PIlot epi, didn’t it? Again, not sure what to make of that yet. Although I still have an inkling that the flashforwards are memories relating to everyone’s more recent pasts on the island - ie. the flashBACKS were distorted memories as a result of being under some kind of “brainwashing”, and the flashFORWARDS are less distorted memories which are emerging now that brainwashing has been switched off. It’s a tenuous theory, I admit, but it does seem to work as I’m watching these new episodes. (Especially since Ben hooks up with Sayid shortly after “landing” in the desert, and he was captured by Sayid shortly after “landing” in Henry Gale’s ballon.) Unless the whole point is that the present and the future are echoing everyone’s past experiences - as in, until past wrongs are resolved, everything will continue to occur time and time again.

As for Jack’s fate, I still can’t shake the feeling that my fave character could die before Lost’s eventual resolution - and possibly even by the end of this season. It’s a weird one this, because (love him or hate him) I do think Jack’s the show’s central character and everything does indeed revolve around him - so surely he HAS to survive until the end, doesn’t he? And if, as I suspect, then he’s the island’s ultimate baddie, then the eventual reveal would be diminished if he wasn’t around. Maybe the whole point of Jack’s recent ailment was that Christian appeared whilst Jack was in a weakened state. I dunno, I’m sure there’s something relevant about his weakened state, even if we haven’t picked up on quite what it is yet.

H x

So, rereading my theory, if the Island doesn't let you die... gee this might work with what Hurley is trying to explain.

What if when Jack does die on the mainland he is immediately sent back to the Island and has to do it all over again? So Hurely believes he is dead and will eventually end up back at the Island? Didn't Dave say that it will all end when he dies he will wake up? Maybe they HAVE to die on the Island in order to WAKE UP?
So, that is why Ben doesn't want to kill Widmore, because Widmore knows he will end up back at the Island? So, why doesn't Widmore kill himself in order to find the Island?
Good grief, I REALLY hope I'm wrong on this theory.

Again, this is just a theory... one which I REALLY hope DOESN'T happen. I'm still hoping for wormholes, some more science instead of fantasy.

Yeah that whole Claire thing is a bit weird, especially since Miles is a “ghostbuster”. Not sure what to make of this yet, but her disappearance this week does seem to explain why Kate would be looking after Aaron in the future. It does seem a bit unbelievable that Claire could survive an exploding house ... but then no more unbelievable than a group of people surviving such a catastrophic plane crash. And the whole idea of Claire being dead does seem to tie in with FF Hurley’s speech about being dead. That scene really creeped me out. Again, not sure what to make of it yet.

H x

This makes some sense, although it seems "out there" (but what isn't on the show?). This would explain a bit more why Miles was looking at Claire strangely and why he sarcastically answered Sawyer about going after her into the jungle. Obviously something is seriously up with Claire.

This makes some sense, although it seems "out there" (but what isn't on the show?). This would explain a bit more why Miles was looking at Claire strangely and why he sarcastically answered Sawyer about going after her into the jungle. Obviously something is seriously up with Claire.

Yeah, walking dead people? How can we possible distinguish dead people from those who are alive? I still don't think Claire is dead, unless Aaron is also. I don't think dead people can reproduce. SO, why haven't we seen Boone again? Or Shannon? If dead people on this Island can walk around, why not them?

So the Wolf in Sheep's clothing (Jack) could be someone who is dead???:confused:

The more I think about it, I don’t think Claire will turn out to be dead either. It’s too predictable and I think there’ll be more of a twist.

Maybe someone is trying to rescue certain key people from the island who are directly (if currently unknowingly) connected to TPTB. So far, I’ve suggested on this thread that Rousseau could be Jack’s wife (ie. MF’s character is really her beloved Robert), and that Claire is Jack’s daughter (ie. either MF’s Jack, or the real Jack who we currently know as Desmond). And I’ve also suggested that MF’s character was previously heading the island - it’s “president”, if you like. So maybe anyone who has recently “disappeared” has actually been snatched from the island for their own protection, as part of the island’s “first family”. (In fact, this could even apply to Boone since I’ve previously also suggested that maybe he’s Jack’s son). Or they’re being snatched to use as a bargaining tool against Jack later.

Now I realise we saw Rousseau’s “corpse” but don’t forget we’ve already had instances where bodies seemingly came back to life (ie. Mikhail) or were even buried whilst still alive (ie. Pikki, and Ethan’s corpse was visibly still breathing when it was about to be bured). So it wouldn’t surprise me if Rousseau isn’t really dead. Plus we’ve had all those jokey maker’s references to a “zombie season”, which seems to hint at some kind of “walking dead” even if not in the literal sense. Maybe the point is that we’re meant to assume that certain characters are dead when they’ve actually been removed from the island. Maybe this is why the freighter doctor appeared dead on the island but was also reported “alive and fine” elsewhere.

On a slight tangent, I was watching Sweeny Todd today and its story of a murderous vengeful barber reminded me of all those references to hair and razors on last week’s Jack-centric episode. And Todd’s daughter is called Joanna which reminded me of the Joanna who supposedly drowned in an early episode, and Charlie’s Fire+Water vision of Aaron drowning in a piano (ie. perhaps it signified the person who gave birth to Aaron almost drowning , since Cockney rhyming slang for piano is “old Joanna”), and Claire’s near-drowning which was prevented by Des. Maybe I’m seeing connections where there aren’t any, but maybe all are clues pointing to Claire being Jack’s daughter - just like Sweeny Todd’s Joanna.

Yeah, walking dead people? How can we possible distinguish dead people from those who are alive? I still don't think Claire is dead, unless Aaron is also. I don't think dead people can reproduce. SO, why haven't we seen Boone again?
We have. He met with Locke.

So are you saying that Boone didn't die, or that he's one of the "walking dead"? I seem to remember you saying previously that Boone's burial was faked, and that the "corpse" managed to slip away unnoticed. Or have I got this wrong, doc?

And what's your take on Rousseau and Karl's apparent demise?

So are you saying that Boone didn't die, or that he's one of the "walking dead"? I seem to remember you saying previously that Boone's burial was faked, and that the "corpse" managed to slip away unnoticed. Or have I got this wrong, doc?

And what's your take on Rousseau and Karl's apparent demise?
Boone didn't die, and the "walking dead" on this show are people who have pretended to die. That will include Rousseau & Karl.

Yup, I tend to agree with you there.

Boone didn't die, and the "walking dead" on this show are people who have pretended to die. That will include Rousseau & Karl.

I think this is for another thread, but I think the writers MAYBE leaning toward a different dimension. They are dead to our time, but alive somewhere else. I think a review of the Orchid video may help. Also, looks like we MAY get more answers next show. :biggrin:

The one I'm not sure about is Alex. I think the writers may have laid a trap with that "changed the rules" business for viewers like me who've figured everything up to that point was fake, to lure us into thinking that death was real. They may have succeeded with me.

Robert

The one I'm not sure about is Alex. I think the writers may have laid a trap with that "changed the rules" business for viewers like me who've figured everything up to that point was fake, to lure us into thinking that death was real. They may have succeeded with me.

Robert

Robert... you figured this out?? And you didn't share?:mad: :biggrin: lol.

Chuckle :biggrin:

Hey everyone - after a Stateside vacation which handily coincided with the first two new post-strike epi's, I'm now back in Blighty where Lost airs a tiresome two weeks later than America. Darnit. Which means I'm only going to be able to post my observations about the remaining S4 epi's ages after you lot have moved onto the next episode. So apologies in advance if I'm going to sound a bit like an annoying echo in the coming weeks.

H x

I strongly believe that Jack Shephard is a covert agent for the Dharma Initiative, and his distinctive tattoo marks him as such. In retrospect, the clues are scattered throughout all three seasons of the show. The implications for season 4 (and beyond) are immense.

Alot of the following information has already formed the basis of posts I
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(OK - something obviously went wrong there! Let's try again)

WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING

I strongly believe that Jack Shephard is a covert agent for the Dharma Initiative, and his distinctive tattoo marks him as such. In retrospect, the clues are scattered throughout all three seasons of the show. The implications for season 4 (and beyond) are immense.

Alot of the following information has already formed the basis of posts I’ve made elsewhere on the ‘lage, but I think that this theory is so integral to unlocking the mysteries of Lost that it deserves its own thread. Still - apologies to those reading this for the umpteenth time.

This is still very much a theory in progress. I have an idea where things might be headed when season 4 begins, but there are still a number of very big questions remaining. Including whether Jack was aware of his actual real identity whilst on the island, what the true nature of his mission for Dharma was, and whether any of the other losties were in on it too. I’d therefore appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have. Anyway, here goes ...


THE TATTOO IS JACK’S DHARMA LOGO!

Note the similarity of the upper arrow-like portion of Jack’s tattoo to the archetypal Dharma logo based on the Bagua (many thanks to Lucidity for providing the links):-

Jack’s tattoo: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image%3AJacktattoo.jpg
Dharma logo: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image%3ADHARMAlogo.jpg


THIS BAGUA MOTIF WOULD TIE IN WITH EASTERN TEXT BELOW:

The tattoos are obviously Matthew Fox’s own but the makers have always been very open about wanting them to make them an integral part of Jack’s story. Up until now, the suggestion has been that they gave his character of the caring doctor an added edge. I think they’ve just been keeping quiet about just what that “edge” was.

MF has never explained what his tattoos mean in any press interviews. Up until now, we’ve been led to assume that this is because they have a very personal relevance to him and that it’s understandably not something he’s willing to share with the rest of the world. However, I now think he’s never explained what they mean because the arrow is actually taken from the Bagua which, as we know, forms part of the Dharma logo. The Bagua would certainly tie in with the Eastern theme of the text beneath. But if MF came out and said this, it would blow the surprise of Jack’s covert involvement with Dharma.


LOST HAS FOCUSED ON EVERY TATTOO APART FROM THIS ONE:

Throughout Lost, the emphasis has always been on every aspect of Jack’s tattoos apart from that distinctive Bagua portion. I now think the Lost creators intended to hide the true relevance of this particular tattoo by teasing us with snippets of information about what the others meant.

The ‘5’ was initially explained in the pilot, with Jack’s story to Kate about counting to five as a way of dealing with panic. And we returned to this story several times as the show progessed - when Kate was hiding from Smokey; when she was lowered into the Swan Hatch; and when Jack asked her to relate the same tale as proof that she’d safely escaped from the Others.

As season 3 progressed, we were treated to an increasing number of shots of the colourful stars tatooed inside Jack’s elbow. Another attempt to deflect attention from the really important one?

When it emerged during a poker game that Jack had spent time in Thailand and possibly got his tattoos done there, I think we all assumed (and perhaps more importantly, were led to believe) that it was the Oriental text below the 5 which was more relevant. Stranger In A Strange Land seemed to confirm the assumption. However, Isabel’s definition wasn’t a correct translation - “He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us” rather than the actual “Eagles high, cleaving sky.” Jack’s true Dharma status would certainly distinguish him from (most of?) the other innocent losties. However, I think Isabel’s incorrect translation was actually a subtle clue that this explanation as to the overall importance of Jack’s tattoo was also incorrect and that we should in fact be looking elsewhere.

Isabel failed to mention the Bagua tatoo in her overall appraisal - “the 5 and the stars are very cute. But the Chinese I find a bit ... ironic.” Strange that she didn’t comment on the boldest and most unusual part of his tattoes. Or were the writers hoping we wouldn’t notice in our excitement at finally learning what the Chinese characters meant?

In his dvd commentary for Tale of Two Cities, director Jack Bender questions why no-one is more interested in Jack’s tattoos before quickly changing the subject. If the tattoos are that important, how come every single official promo shot for Jack’s character for seasons 1, 2 and 3 shows him with the tattoos covered up by sleeves?


THE SHARK WITH THE DHARMA LOGO:

I now believe that the shark with the Dharma logo was a metaphor (or VERY clever Easter Egg!) for Jack’s hidden Dharma status. Especially when you consider that a shark is something dangerous and menacing, hidden from view in the murkey depths of the ocean. Keep in mind this idea of something dangerous hidden from view, because I’m going to come back to it.

And don’t forget that, in Flashes Before Your Eyes, Sawyer was singing “Show Me The Way To Go Home” (as featured in classic shark movie, Jaws) just before he and Kate discussed why they’d left Jack behind on the Others’ island.


JACK SHEPHARD AND HOWARD WOLLSTEIN:

So far, the only Dharma employee we’re fairly sure we’ve witnessed is Marvin CANDLE, otherwise known as Mark WICKman and Edward HaliWAX. This made me wonder whether Jack, as a fellow Dharma employee, also had any other names which could be subtly inter-related.

During the Lost Rewind for Walkabout, a number of us noticed that Claire mentions the name of a crash victim called Howard Wollstein during the memorial service. And that he was supposedly sitting in seat 23C at the time of the crash - the only seat mentioned during her tribute, and conveniently one of the Numbers. However, we’ve never seen a ‘Howard’ in any of the in-flight flashbacks. And, despite telling Rose that he was sitting in 23A and Ana-Lucia that he was in 23B, Jack was actually sitting in 23C at the time of the crash. Add to this the fact that Claire mentions Howard Wollstein just after Kate asks Charlie if she knows where Jack is. Could Jack be Howard Wollstein?

Kerstin80 then pointed out that Wollstein means WOOL-stone. Which brings me back to the Dharma Shark. I was trying to come up with a snappy phrase which, like a shark, would imply someone dangerous hidden from view. I came up with A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING. And what is sheeps clothing - wool. And what would sheep not be afraid of - a shephard. Jack’s secret Dharma identity would certainly tie in with the central Lost theme of hidden menace and things not being quite as they seem. But could this imply that the losties are LAMBS being led to the slaughter?!


JACK’S DHARMA STATUS MAY EXPLAIN FLASHFORWARD:

Let’s assume I’m right and that Jack was in fact a dangerous Dharma assassin, placed on the island for some as-yet undisclosed mission. I must admit I found this disconcerting because he’s such a heroic character, and my favourite on the show! How could it be possible that someone who has
always been shown trying to help or protect the losties will turn out to have been trying to harm them all along?

I think that Jack’s true identity will be revealed by whoever is on Naomi’s boat. The big question now is, was Jack aware of his hidden Dharma status whilst on the island? Was he consciously deceiving everyone that he befriended on the island, and that’s why he later told Kate he was “sick of lying”? Was Kate’s unwillingness to meet with him a sign of her disgust at his betrayl?

Or was the revelation as much of a shock to him? Had Jack been a “sleeper” assassin, who’s memory had been manipulated to provide him with the false backstory of a doctor who would care for and protect the losties, whilst his actual unwitting intentions were far more murderous? If so, perhaps the poker scene with Sawyer was a clue to this since you could interpret it as an oblique reference to the Manchurian Candidate. (In the movie, Laurence Harvey’s character is a sleeper assasin who’s memory has been tampered with by Communist agents. He is “awoken” with a secret signal to assasinate a presidential candidate, triggered by a playing card).

If Jack was unaware, would this explain why the eventual revelation of his true nature was so shocking that he turned to drugs and alcohol in guilt and shame, and even attempted suicide (“Lord forgive me”)? Or why he was then so desperate to return to the island to make ammends? It would certainly tie in with another central Lost theme - redemption for past wrongs.

Roll on season 4!
After last nights epi 5/8/08 this could explain a lot!

Hope you’re right, Neverfoundit! I still think there’s more to Jack than meets the eye. I’m looking forward to seeing that episode ... when it FINALLY airs here in the UK next weekend!

Re-reading that stuff I’d written right at the start of this thread, I was reminded of Sawyer singing “Show me the way to go home”. I intially assumed it was some kind of reference to Jack being the Dharma shark, since it originally featured prominently in shark movie ‘Jaws’. I still think that’s true, but I’m now also wondering if there’s another hidden meaning to the song. In the movie it’s sung by Robert Shaw’s character - in Lost, it’s sung as Sawyer and Kate row towards the island. And I think Jack’s real name is Robert, and that he had a MAJOR position on the island previously. So that song which was originally sung by a Robert Shaw could be a clue that Sawyer and Kate are actually rowing towards Robert’s Shore.

Also, a while back I suggested that Dharma had been eradicated in some kind of revolution, similar to the Russian Revolution (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1658936&postcount=300 - see para headlined ‘Revolution on the Island’). OK, here are some possible clues from recent episodes to support this idea.

- in ‘Shape of Things to Come’, Ben checks into his hotel on 24th October, 2005 - 24th October 1917 was the start of the October Revolution in Russia.

- Ben plays Rachmaninoff’s Prelude in C-sharp minor on the piano. This piece of music was re-worked by famous ragtime composer George Linus (!) Cobb, and entitled The Russian Rag.

- In ‘Something Nice Back Home’, FF Jack’s patient awaiting an operation the following day is called Ms Berenberg. Dr Von Berenberg-Gossler was the attorney for the opposition in the Anderson trials of the 1950s. (Anna Anderson claimed that she was Anastasia, only-surviving member of the Russian royal family which had been massacred during the revolution).

That’s all for now.

H x

Hey guys - sorry I’ve been a bit quiet of late but here are some new potential clues which could add strength to a couple of aspects of my theory. Let me know what you think.

JACK’S REAL NAME IS ROBERT:

I’ve done some digging and it seems that there are tons of clues pointing to the presence of “someone” called Robert on the island. I still reckon it’s Jack and that he’s assumed his brother’s identity for some mysterious and quite possibly sinister mission on the island. (How ironic is Jack’s “see you in another life, brother” farewell to Desmond in the season 4 finale if I’m right?!). Anyway, here goes ...

i) Sawyer calls Jack “Sundance”. The Sundance Kid was famously portrayed on celluloid by ROBERT Redford. More on this one later because I think it’s a very important clue.

ii) The French lycrics which Shannon translated from Rousseau’s papers were taken from ‘La Mer’, a famous French song later re-worked as ‘Beyond the Sea’ by BOBBY Darin. (B.t.w Kevin Spacey portrayed Darin in his 2004 biopic ‘Beyond the Sea’ - a bit of a freaky coincidence considering my overall theory that Jack could be Lost’s version of Keyzer Soze!)

iii) Sawyer sings ‘Show Me The Way To Go Home’ whilst he and Kate are rowing back to the beach following their escape from Hydra island. The song is famously featured in the movie Jaws, where it is sung by ROBERT Shaw. (I still think this one’s a clue that Sawyer is rowing towards Robert’s shore).

iv) A bit of a tenuous connection here, but Jacob / Jacob’s Ladder could be pointing to Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” which was sung by ROBERT Plant.

v) The cue cards Juliet showed to Jack in the Hydra with the hidden message to kill Ben during his operation are inspired by the iconic video to BOB Dylan’s Subterranean Homesick Blues.

vi) “Late” and “Fate” scribbed on Charlie’s knuckles in the early days are reminiscent of the “Love” and “Hate” tattoos on the knuckles of the psychotic preacher played by ROBERT Mitchum in ‘Night of the Hunter’ (fabulous movie!).

vii) Charlie’s ‘Fire+Water’ childhood dream sequences are inspired by The Beatles’ album, ‘Yesterday and Today’, and its controversial original cover art portraying the band members as butchers with decapitated baby dolls. There’s a track on the album called ‘Doctor ROBERT’ about a drug-dealing doctor.

viii) There’s a Lost video on Youtube which I think was originally aired by ABC as part of the Superbowl transmission during season 2. It’s called “Addicted to Lost” and features clips from the show intercut with the iconic 80s pop video to ROBERT Palmer’s “Addicted to Love”.

ix) Another tenuous one here, but I really hope I’m right because it’s such a clever and funny Brit-based clue. Ben’s fake passport bears the name of Dean Moriarty, a hint to Sherlock Holmes’ nemesis. And there’s a S3 blooper where Locke refers to Sayid as Holmes. OK, Sherlock Holmes lived in ‘Baker Street’ which is also the name of a famous late 70s/early 80s pop song by Gerry Rafferty. And there’s an urban legend here that cosy tv presenter BOB Holness is playing the memorable sax intro to the song.

I’ll admit that all these could just be coincidence. But tell me if you can find the same number of hidden clues to any other one name (not currently belonging to a central character) scattered throughout the show, and I'll give up this theory now.


HAROLD WOLLSTEIN = JACK SHEPHARD?

Throughout this thread, we’ve been trying to work out why Claire said that Seat 23C was occupied by one Harold Wollstein when in-flight flashbacks showed Jack sitting there at the time of the crash. The answer seemed to be that Harold Wollstein is some kind of clue related to Jack’s actual role on the show, even if we couldn’t work out what that role could be. Until now. Maybe.

OK, in a recent episode Sawyer calls Jack “Sundance”. The Sundance Kid was a famous outlaw who’s real name was Harry Longabaugh. This could explain where the “Harold” part of Wollstein’s name comes from. And it seems to imply that the person the name refers to is some kind of outlaw.

“Wollstein” could be pointing to Mary Woolstonecraft Shelley (née Woolstonecraft Godwin!) who wrote ‘Frankenstein’. In other words, Woolstonecraft + Frankenstein = Wollstein.

Shelley wrote ‘Frankenstein’ whilst staying in a villa alongside Lake Geneva (ie. could explain countless references to Switzerland on the show), with her husband Percy Bysshe Shelley, the poet Byron and (wait for it) her pregnant stepsister Claire!

Many people mistakenly assume that “Frankenstein” refers to the monster itself, but it’s actually the name of the mad scientist who creates it. The monster is never named in the book, although the author herself referred to the creature as “Adam” in certain readings. I”m still convinced that the Adam skeleton found in the caves relates to Jack and/or the person - namely Desmond a.k.a the real Jack - he created.

All of which seems to suggest that the person who was sitting in seat 23C at the time of the “crash” is an outlaw who is also some kind of mad scientist. Which fits in nicely with my overall theory about Jack!


ANOTHER JONESTOWN PARALLEL?

I’ll admit this one could be another example of me clutching at straws for clues to support my theory, but I knew there was something about the name on the x-rays of Jack’s flashforward patient which was bugging me and I think I might’ve finally worked it out.

I’ve previously suggested that events on the island are somehow inspired by Jonestown, a real-life commune for the People’s Temple cult which it’s been rumoured was actually secretly being operated as a CIA mind control research facility. A group of concerned relatives, officials and media representatives flew there in 1978 to investigate reports of human rights violations, but many were ambushed and murdered when they attempted to leave, and leader Jim Jones subsequently ordered the mass suicide of cult members before killing himself.

There have already been some Jonestown references on the show - the Temple; the airstrip ambush where Eko’s brother Yemi was killed; the cult-like Dharma Initiative. I think the parallels go even further ...

I’ve recently been working on a theory that the runway which Juliet told Sawyer the Others had been building was actually being dismantled in an attempt to disguise the previous arrival of an aircraft - namely Flight 815. I think the island was previously visited by a group of concerned relatives and officials who were eager to see just what was happening on the island for themselves, and that they were ambushed and captured upon arrival, and then turned into yet more fodder for Dharma’s perverted experiments. I also think that the Sundra Trench wreckage was staged to hide the disappearance of the real Flight 815. And I think something else later prompted Dharma to realise that they had to escape (most likely somehow connected to Desmond/Matthias’ communication with Penny and the outside world), and this led to THEM putting the Others in charge of the island and disguising themselves as hapless plane crash victims. I will stress that this is all still just a theory in progress, and I’m still trying to work out the possible chain of events which led up to the “crash” itself - so any suggestions are welcome!

Anyway, back to Jack’s patient. The group of concerned relatives which flew to Jonestown was led by Congressman Leo Ryan. The x-rays which Jack was examining when he heard the smoke alarm beeping and saw Christian at the hospital belonged to “Laker, Ryan”. Note that in both cases it’s an “L. Ryan”. Coincidence?

H x

HAROLD WOLLSTEIN = JACK SHEPHARD?


hey Hildy, I've missed ya..
I'm not on the Robert train, but I've always thought Harold Wollstein is a major Jack and story clue.
As you know, I've long resisted a Jack "time loop" and maintained that Jack previously served a Swan hatch tour on the island but a la Des didn't see anything outside the Swan.

Now I'm getting used to Jack as a time-travelling bunny.

Either or both ways, it's his second time around on the island.

Hey Lostmio - thanks for the cheery welcome back!

Definately agree that this is Jack’s “second time around” on the island although I just can’t get my head around the idea of him as a time-travelling bunny. Sorry. I still think it’s something to do with people being made to think they’re existing in one year when it’s actually another. Although I readily admit I’m so averse to the whole time traveling angle because the mere concept makes my brain hurt! 

I still really like your theory about Jack and Des’ seperate pre-crash times in the Swan, even though it doesn’t tally with my own theory that Jack and Des hid down there together because of The Purge and switched identities so that one could escape. Mind you, I’m now starting to question whether maybe Des was imprisoned down there for more sinister reasons. The Joseph-like technicolour t-shirt he wore after the hatch imploded, and Ben’s comments about how Hemingway was jealous of Dostoyevsky makes me wonder whether perhaps Jack threw his brother in the Swan to get him out of the way because he was jealous of him. (Reading Hemingway’s biog over on wikipedia definately makes me think Jack could be Lost’s equivalent). But then we’ve also got the Moriah wine in Des’ monastery scenes, which I definately think actually relate to his time in the Swan. “Moriah” seems to suggest that someone (Locke?!) could’ve been ordered to kill their own son to prove their allegiance. So perhaps Des was put in the Swan for his own protection, and he’s the artistic genuis codenamed Razdinsky whose suicide was faked so that TPTB would think he was dead. Which could explain why Locke was so determined to uncover and open the Swan against all odds. Hmmm. This is a very tricky one to work out because my entire “Jack isn’t Jack” theory hinges on the idea that he and Des had to have been down there together long enough to swap identities AND physical appearances - hence the apparent shots of one man “fattening up” and another “slimming down” in that S2 opening montage. Anyway, moving on ...

Yup, I definately think the Harold Wollstein thing is a major clue about Jack’s true identity and role here. So obviously I’m hoping that potential Wollstein = Frankenstein connection I’ve picked up on is correct. At the risk of sounding like I’ve completely Lost my mind here, I want to run a whole load of other “clues” past you because I can’t help wondering if they’re also pointing to Frankenstein ... or at least, my fave bit in “Young Frankenstein” where the scientist and his monster sing a hilarious rendition of “Putting on the Ritz”. I know it sounds crazy, and what follows might seem like I’m going off on a complete tangent, but please bear with me ...

Iconic French fashion designer Gabrielle “Coco” Chanel lived at the Ritz in Paris (ie. hence the “Putting on the Ritz” angle I’m talking about here). During a very early flashback, Sun returned to her apartment carrying a Chanel carrier bag. And the actor who played Paulo also appeared in a Moulin Rouge-inspired ad for Chanel perfumes.

Marilyn Monroe famously commented that the only thing she ever wore in bed was Chanel No. 5. One of her most famous scenes in a movie is the iconic “Diamonds Are a Girl’s Best Friend” routine in How To Marry A Millionaire. The same song featured in Moulin Rouge in the scene where Satine (Nicole Kidman) first appears. Kidman also appears in the Moulin Rouge-inspired Chanel ad opposite “Paulo”. And the “Diamonds are a girl’s best friend” angle reminded me of the diamonds that Nikki was so desperate to have. In other words, Pikki seem to represent something that’s relevant about Marilyn Monroe and/or Chanel.

Marilyn Monroe is rumoured to have had an affair with president John (Jack) F. Kennedy - in fact, there are also rumours that it could’ve been part of the reason for her apparent suicide. So perhaps we should be looking for a “Marilyn” with a deadly connection to a “5” and a “president” called Jack. Interesting that Jack has a “5” tattoo and I’ve previously speculated that he held a major leadership position on the island - it’s president, if you like. (B.t.w I’m now wondering if the Sherry that Juliet’s husband left her for relates less to a “cheri” as in a French woman, and more to a Cherie as in the wife of an island premiere - like Britain’s Cherie Blair. It could relate to both, actually, if my theory that Jack was previously married to Rousseau is correct).

OK, back to how Lost possibly relates to Frankenstein via Chanel and (Putting on) the Ritz. Chanel’s apartment was extremely famous and much photographed, featuring lacquered chinoiserie screens (similar to those in Sun and Jin’s apartment, now I come to think of it) and a beige suede couch - a copy of which is featured (and named as such) in Frasier’s apartment in the sitcom of the same name. That show is set in Seattle, otherwise known as the Emerald City. On Lost we’ve had countless references to the Wizard of Oz, which features another Emerald City. Charlie and Jack have both expressed a desire for a coffee shop on the island - Starbucks originated in Seattle. And the actor who played the lawyer representing Michael in the custody case for Walt also appeared as a lawyer on Frasier. (Lost’s subtle references to 9/11 also tie in since one of Frasier’s creators sadly perished in the tragedy). So something about Frasier seems to be relevant to what is happening on Lost. Either it’s that Chanel couch in Frasier’s living room (ie. Chanel couch = Ritz = Putting on the Ritz = a young Frankenstein), or it’s the comedy’s central premise of sibling rivalry between two psychiatrists. Which could explain what Des and Jack were doing on the island in the first place. Or not.

I dunno. Maybe all this just shows that everything is connected. Maybe it’s all pointing to something else about Frasier or Chanel that’s important here. Maybe you can help me work out what it all means - if anything.

H x

Next time: the potential significance of Paik's Rolex watches.

Yeah, walking dead people? How can we possible distinguish dead people from those who are alive? I still don't think Claire is dead, unless Aaron is also. I don't think dead people can reproduce. SO, why haven't we seen Boone again? Or Shannon? If dead people on this Island can walk around, why not them?

Maybe people who have died on the island and been buried/laid to rest after cannot "walk?" Charlie was left floating in the Looking Glass - he physically appeared to Hurley at Santa Rosa (setting aside theories about Hurley's mental state). Christian was never properly buried - he appeared physically to Vincent, Jack, Hurley, and Locke. Yemi died either in the smuggler's plane, or during the plane's crash on the island, and was never buried - he appeared to Eko (and later turned out to be Smokey).

Libby was buried, but her one appearance post death was in a dream. Boone died, and was buried, and appeared to Locke in a vision. I'm trying to think of a person who died on the island AND was given a send off of some sort, and who later appeared physically, but I can't.

If the island decided to, uh, animate Claire immediately after the house explosion (maybe she still had work to do?) then Sawyer wouldn't be able to tell. Miles would, because of his connection to dead people. And while Miles *heard* Rousseau and Karl, we don't know that he *saw* them; they may have been shallow graves, but Rousseau and Karl were still buried.

If this theory pans out, the island grave yard is suddenly a LOT more important; heck, even in the midst of their mysterious business, the Others still took time to give their dead a Viking funeral.

You raise some good points but I’m not sure that I necessarily agree with you. How do we know that Charlie and Christian “physically” appeared to those other characters, and that it wasn’t just some kind of hallucination? In which case, what makes their appearances any different to Libby and Boone’s who were given a proper burial? And how do we know for sure that Claire isn’t still alive, and that’s why she was present in the Cabin?

But there definately seems to be something relevant about the so-called “walking dead”, even if we can’t quite work out what it is at the moment. It would certainly explain Dharlton’s jokey insistence that we’ve got “Zombie Season 7” to look forward to! My own personal take on all this is that perhaps there’s someone else on the island of major importance who is meant to be dead but isn’t - in fact, it could even relate to someone who was assumed to have died before the “Crash” but is actually still alive. I definately think the eventual big reveal on Lost will relate to what happened on the island before “our” story even started with the crash, and to the Losties’ role in those events even if they no longer remember it.

Maybe Doc’s right and ALL those (apart from Alex?) who have supposedly died on the island aren’t actually dead. Whilst I find his version of Boone’s supposedly fake burial a bit hard to accept, I wouldn’t be surprised if Rousseau and Karl turned out to be still alive somewhere. There’s definately something fishy about their graves. I mean, why were they buried in the first place? Why not just leave the corpses there to rot? And if they were buried to hide the evidence, then why make the graves so shallow as to leave their faces still identifiable. Unless we’re meant to assume that those corpses were those of Rousseau and Karl (ie. they’re definately dead because we’ve seen the buried corpses), and they’re actually still alive out there.

Finally, one thing which struck me about Christian’s appearances is that the person who witnesses him later comes to some kind of harm. Jack fell off a cliff and probably would’ve plunged to his death if he hadn’t been pulled to safety by Locke. The jury’s still out whether Claire’s dead or alive, but she only disappeared after she’d “seen” Christian. Christian was the last person Michael “saw” before he died in the freighter explosion. And even Locke apparently ended up dead in that coffin. Freaky.

Maybe Doc’s right and ALL those (apart from Alex?) who have supposedly died on the island aren’t actually dead.
For the record, I now think that of all the island and ostensibly pre-island deaths were fake, except for Mr. Eko and probably Nathan. Post-island, I'm still deciding.

Hey Doc - glad to see you’re still checking our my l’il ole thread!

I’m assuming by “pre-island deaths” you’re referring primarily to Christian? I definately agree with you there, but probably not for the same reasons. I STILL reckon Shephard Snr represents the person Jack was before the “Crash” - a metaphor, if you like. And no, I’ve no idea how this theory fits into S4 scenes with Christian and other central characters yet!

As for the supposedly faked on-island deaths you’re referring to, I’m willing to be persuaded. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Losties had been set up to think certain fellow castaways had died so that the “victim” could then be safely removed from the island without them noticing. Although I still think that Alex wasn’t meant to die but she was killed because Keamy was such a loose cannon. Could be wrong though. 

I’m intrigued as to why you think Nathan and Eko’s deaths were real, though. What distinguishes their deaths from those of the other characters on your list? Does this mean that they’re not necessarily on the “same side” as everyone else?

Finally, what’s your take on Locke’s supposed demise? Real or fake? And again, for what purpose? I haven’t made my mind up yet, but this is probably because I’m still reeling from the shock of the “wrong” person (by my reckoning, anyway) being in that coffin!

Hey Lostmio - thanks for the cheery welcome back!

Definately agree that this is Jack’s “second time around” on the island although I just can’t get my head around the idea of him as a time-travelling bunny. Sorry. I still think it’s something to do with people being made to think they’re existing in one year when it’s actually another. Although I readily admit I’m so averse to the whole time traveling angle because the mere concept makes my brain hurt! 


The S4 finale made my brain hurt and at this point I don't think we can rule out any "second-time-around Jack" theory.
Anyway, I'm glad you're keeping this thread alive, there's some good stuff stashed away in it.

Thanks for the compliment, Lostmio. I realise this thread is now limping along a bit, but I’m determined to keep it going for as long as I can still find “clues” and “references” on the show which appear to support my theory.

3 lines in the "arrow" part of Jack's tattoo. A compass circle that would form a "0". And the number 5. 305. Seems obvious to me.

Cool interpretation of Jack’s tattoo, Atlas1212. So now the question is, why would Jack have the “escape co-ordinates” tattooed on his arm if he’d never been to the island before?

So now the question is, why would Jack have the “escape co-ordinates” tattooed on his arm if he’d never been to the island before?
Yes, and further the compass tattoo wasn't put there in "Stranger in a Strange Land".
So there's a story still to come about that tattoo... and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't have to do with Jack marking himself for a 2nd trip to the island, whether an actual physical trip or a time loop.

lostmio. that is a pretty creative thought.

But why would Jack go back in time? Why would the jack we see waking up in the jungle be a time traveling Jack? What would be the purpose. The writers have stated clearly that they do not treat time travel like "Back to the Future" where you can go back in time and change scenarios. If Jack going back in time doesn't change anything, what would be the purpose of doing it?

I do think you are on to SOMETHING here though. I always thought it was odd that Jack said he "blacked out" when the crash happened. That he woke up so far away from the crash. I'm not sure we're seeing a future Jack there..but something is odd. It's like the Swan implosion survivors blacking out and waking up randomly in the jungle. Demond with no clothes on either.. Just odd.

lostmio. that is a pretty creative thought.

But why would Jack go back in time? Why would the jack we see waking up in the jungle be a time traveling Jack? What would be the purpose. ?

Atlas, I've long maintained that Jack *didn't* time-travel.

My theory is/was that Jack did a tour in the Swan hatch, like Des. (Hildy and I have had many discussions on that, I think they're earlier in this thread.)

Like Des, Jack only saw parts of the island that he could explore in a 108-minute round trip... which rules out the beach, the dark territory, new otherton, and just about everything. So all that was new to him, it wasn't until he entered the hatch that he knew he was back on the Dharma island. I'm not just pulling that out of my backside. If you rewatch MoSMoF with that in mind... and especially if you listen to TPTB's dvd commentary on it while watching, you'll see that a lot of Jack's behavior in that episode makes complete sense if he's just discovering he's back in a place he thought he'd left long ago. TPTB even gives what I think is a coy allusion to it...

There are other clues, too - especially visual ones, in his stadium meeting with Des. I've discussed these earlier.

I then rewatched the rest of S2, with that idea in mind... that Jack has finally discovered he's back on an island he's visited before, that he knows more about the politics and background of the place that he's letting on to the other Losties. Jack's always played his cards close to his chest, he's not known for sharing information. It fits big time... in fact, I'd bet the bank that Jack, like Kelvin, was working for Dharma, and he early on realizes Ben & group are the "hostiles". His loose-cannon, "in your face", oftimes bizaare actions and attitude toward Juliet and Ben are because of that. Jack didn't know them, of course, but he's played this island game before and by gawd he's not ever gonna play it again, not by their rules!

But again, Jack was clueless throughout Season 1 because he had never seen those parts of the island before. He truly thought he was on a random island.

Now - back to the time travel - I can't answer you questions because I resisted that right up to this season's finale. We've known since last year that Jack will eventually return to the island. Now I reluctantly have to accept that there*may* be some sort of time travel involved. I haven't a clue how it will play out.

I'm far more interested in Jack's past that any time-travelling future they might slap on him. Jack's 40 years old, there's a huge hunk of his past we haven't seen. His dad's neck-deep in island background stuff, it's not a stretch to think that Jack might have worked for Dharma or some other island faction in his 20s or 30s...

Waking up in the bamboo? Big.. and odd. But even bigger is Jack's reaction to the whole hatch thing. Rewatch MoSMoF, and ask yourself "is it possible Jack's recognizing this place, and that's why he's going so nuts? That that's why he remembers the execute numbers? That that's why he's so resistant to pressing execute? That that's why he was so turned off by the orientation video? Because he's been there done all that, and lost faith in the whole Dharma thing?"
Suddenly, everything about Jack makes sense.

So are you saying he did a stint there for Dharma, left, was brainwashed to forget he was ever there and then crashed there again and it took him a while to acclimate?

So are you saying he did a stint there for Dharma, left, was brainwashed to forget he was ever there and then crashed there again and it took him a while to acclimate? No, I don't think he was brainwashed, nor did he need to reacclimate. As soon as he was back in the Swan he recognized it, so why and how would brainwashing fit in?

I'm confused lostmio. It's all me, not you.

When did Jack do this stint in the swan? Way back? And then he crashed and didn't immediately realize he was on "the island".

I think that is ENTIRELY possible. We know that Thailand Jack was a bit of a drifter. So it's not out there to think that a guy in the field of medical science could end up working for the DI.

I still think that it's a bit of a stretch. Ben and The Others would have records of any DI employees wouldn't they. You'd think Ben would have said something if Jack worked for the DI.

When did Jack do this stint in the swan? Way back?
There's roughly 15 years of his adult life that we don't know much about.

And then he crashed and didn't immediately realize he was on "the island". The beach and dark territory are a long journey from the Swan, and we know that Swan attendees tended to stay close, because of the 108-minute thing.

I still think that it's a bit of a stretch. Ben and The Others would have records of any DI employees wouldn't they. Not necessarily. The DI and/or it's parent company weren't headquartered on the island, and Ben's not and never has been a major Dharma player.

So why did Jack necessarily need to have worked at the swan? Just because it is one of the more isolating DI stations?

So why did Jack necessarily need to have worked at the swan? Because that's the one he recognized. Again, it's all in MoSMoF.

ok. I don't have the seasons. I watched Season Four (that was my first exposure to LOST) and about 3 episodes in, started renting seasons 1-3.

Can you explain, without wasting too much of your time since it's in the episode, how Jack "recognized" the swan? thanks.

Also, I think something VERY interesting would be to scrutinze the swan and see if it has anything of Jack's in it. I mean, anything that could be tied to Jack when he was there.

Hey guys - interesting debate going on here about Jack and his “previous” time on the island. Lostmio, I know we kind of disagree on this one but I’m going to outline my alternative take on Jack’s “real” (ie. theoretical!) backstory for Atlas1212. Sorry it’s such a lengthy explanation but there’s alot to squeeze in here.

I reckon Jack was previously working on Dharma Island, quite possibly even heading up whatever was really going on there - my guess is that it’s something to do with the CIA and MKULTRA-type mind control experiments (ie. just like rumours that real-life commune Jonestown was secretly being operated as a CIA mind control research facility). At the very least, a more sinister background would explain why surgeon Jack could be so nifty with a gun. It’s debatable whether the whole hippy-dippy Dharma commune angle is just a complicated smokescreen, or whether the place had actually mutated from something with peaceful intentions into something much murkier (eg. a training ground for sleeper assassins, in a nod to cult Cold War thriller ‘The Manchurian Candidate”).

It seems probable that at some point something went horribly wrong. I originally assumed that it was The Purge where Dharma’s test victims revolted and basically “took over the assylum”. Now I’m in two minds about this potential scenario because the term “purge” seems to imply that those in power actually instigated it in the first place. So it’s also possible that Dharma or whoever was running the place realised that they had to escape for whatever reason, and put the in-mates (a.k.a The Others) in control so that they could take the rap in their place. I definately think Ben and co. are puppets for whoever is actually in charge, if only because of their habit of walking around barefoot (ie. “barefoot on sandy shore” could be a cryptic clue pointing to 60s singer Sandie Shaw who won Eurovision Song Contest with “Puppet on a String”, and infamously performed barefoot); and also because Ben comments that Widmore has “changed the rules” and both men appear to already know each other in flashforwards.

If experiments on the island had been inhumane and those responsible now had to escape, it makes sense that a) they’d need to disguise themselves to avoid detection and probable punishment; and b) they’d use the fruits of their labour to help them succeed. In other words, I reckon they programmed themselves to believe that they were other people so that, when rescued, they honestly wouldn’t be able to reveal their role in all this because they’d genuinely think they were merely innocent bystanders (ie. “plane crash victims”). In other words, I DON’T think the Losties are genuine survivors of a plane crash - I think that’s just been used as a complex cover story to explain their “sudden” appearance on the island. Whether all the Losties are actually Dharma is debateable because some of them might’ve been merely related (by blood or marraige) to active Dharma members, but I think it’s highly likely that those who were include Jack, Locke, Sayid and Rose (if only because the CIA operative responsible for Sayid being on Flight 815 always wore rose-coloured shirts) at the very least. It’s also possible that the Losties’ group includes some “enemies within”, people who are trying to ensure that Dharma’s cunning escape plan doesn’t succeed. This suggestion could explain Lostmio’s brilliant “2 plane theory”, which focuses on the two apparently different groups of people featured in assorted in-flight flashbacks (ie. did they arrive by different planes or at different times or by different means or do they have different agendas?). As one example, I suspect Sawyer might’ve gone to the island to investigate what was going on when he got caught up in all this, and that he’s connected to someone who was either working there or who was a victim or both.

Central to my entire theory is the possibility that Desmond is the real Jack Shephard, and the person we know as Jack is actually his brother. This would explain the whole “Bad Twin” angle running throughout the show, and Des and Jack’s poignant “see you in another life, brother” exchanges, not to mention why we have a string of characters named after Enlightenment philosophers and an episode called A Tale Of Two Cities (check out the synopsis of Dickens’ French Revolution classic to see what I mean). I strongly suspect that Des was programmed and put in the Swan hatch so that his brother could assume his identity and escape without detection. I reckon the whole “entering the numbers” business was contrived to keep Des safely out of sight in the aftermath of The Purge - hence the quaruntine sign on the INSIDE of the hatch, because it was protecting him from what was outside. If he really did bring down a plane over the island, I reckon it was intentional on Dharma’s part and designed to explain the “sudden arrival” of the Losties. But I still can’t decide whether Des was a witting or unwitting victim in all this. Time will tell, I suppose.

OK, the Losties have been programmed and now believe that they are totally different people. And they have no conscious recollection of knowing anyone else on Flight 815 previously - as far as they’re concerned, they’re all “strangers in a strange land”. However, I think their new “alien” memories (ie. the flashbacks) retain subtle traces of their original “real” memories. In other words, flashback situations are a disguised version of what they actually experienced previously, and certain flashback-only characters represent other central characters that we know and love. I definately reckon most (if not all) characters knew and had a direct connection with each other previously, regardless of whether they remember that now. So Des’ memories of entering a monastery due to “A brother’s calling” could actually be a disguised version of why he entered the Swan in the first place to help HIS brother. And Jack’s unease when they uncovered the Swan hatch could be a sign of his subconscious memory of having imprisoned his brother down there so that he could escape (ie. he was ashamed at what he’d done, and frightened to discover what state his brother could be in as a result. Don’t forget Des had almost killed himself as a result of the psychologically-damaging effects of being down there alone for so long).

Now Jack’s tattoos. This thread starts with a long discussion on what they might mean, although we never did come to any firm conclusions. Perhaps the strongest possible explanation is that they give escape co-ordinates, just like you mentioned. I still like my original theory that the distinctive arrow-like tattoo is taken from the Bagua which forms the basis of all Dharma logos, and that the infamous Dharma logo’d shark from the S1 finale is a clue to Jack’s hidden villain status (not least since the makers have since joked that the shark also got his tattoos from Jack’s Thai lover, Achara!) It’s also possible that the tattoos can only be accurately deciphered when viewed in a mirror. This might explain why they’ve apparently switched arms at certain key points, notably when Jack’s been uncharacteristically brutal in a fight scene (ie. his true personality emerged briefly?). So this itself might be a clue that the person Jack really is, is a mirror image of the person he appears to be. In other words, the person played by MF is himself merely a mirror image of the real Jack (a.k.a Desmond). I hope this makes sense - it’s very tricky to explain!

contd ...

Up to now we’ve only been given a partial explanation as to why Jack had the tattoos done in the first place, with the whole Thailand episode. But just like Jack tells Isobel “that’s what they say, that’s not what they mean”, I also think those scenes have an additional hidden meaning or relevance. Don’t forget that the Thailand scenes ended with Jack being brutally beaten as a result of his affair with Achara; or that at that point in the on-island story, his relationship with Juliet was warming up considerably; or that flashback Claire also had dark hair whilst working in a tattoo parlour, just like Jack’s lover Achara. So whilst we’ve been led to assume that the Thailand scenes merely provided a (partial) explanation for the tattoos, I think those particular memories were actually designed to represent the ultimate taboo (ie. incest) to ensure that Jack didn’t have any kind of physical relationship whilst on the island - most likely because he wanted to remain faithful to his actual partner on the island (my guess is Rousseau!), even though neither recognizes the other any more because they’ve both been programmed to think they’re different people with different pasts. Which would mean that Jack has been subconsciously aware that he’s related to Claire all along, regardless of his behaviour or what the flashforwards depicted.

Finally, I’m hoping Lostmio will outline her examples of where Jack has “recognized” certain things on the island. I’d mention the fact that his hand went automatically for the light switch when they entered the radio station to turn off Rousseau’s distress message, even though he’d supposedly never been in the place before. Plus, of course, that incredible makers’ commentary to scenes in MoSMoF when Jack “first” enters the Swan.

As for whether there’s anything of Jack’s inside the Swan which would give the game away, nothing immediately springs to mind. Although I do wonder whether it could be something to do with how tidy or untidy it was. I’ve nothing firm to go on yet and these are just a few quick observations, but try to check out the opening montage to S2 again. I’m convinced it’s 2 people - Jack and Des - down there at the same time (one with flat stomach and the other with bloated stomach; one fattening himself up with power shakes, the other one slimming down with exercise; one with neatly clipped fingernails, the other with nails that are chipped and dirty), and that the camera angles, blocking and edits deliberately disguise the fact that one person keeps switching with another. Anyway, when Des initially leaps down from the bunk, he leaves the bedclothes rumpled whilst the lower bunk is immaculately-made and the shelves are neatly arranged. Which seems to imply that Des is the untidy brother, and Jack is the clean-freak! And don’t forget that the interior of Jack’s tent is very neat and tidy, as was his previous infirmary in the caves, and his LA apartment in previous flashbacks. Now contrast that with the messy state of his flashforward apartment at the end of S3. Now I realise this is probably just a sign of Jack’s diminishing mental state, but it could be pointing to something else with a deeper significance. Or not. Who knows!

Anyway, I hope this all makes sense, but do read back through the entire thread because it’s all described in far greater detail together with “evidence” to support my theories. And let me know if there’s any specific points which need clarifying or which don’t add up. Cheers.

H x

I was re-watching MoSMoF last night to check out the makers’ commentary again with regard to our theory that Jack had been in the Swan previously. Lostmio, I DEFINATELY think we’re on the right track with this one. And I thought Atlas1212 might be interested to see just what we’re talking about:

As Jack enters the darkened Swan hatch in search of Kate and Locke, Damon says:

“This is so great though. It’s like, y’know, the way that the hatch looks when the lights are on versus the way that the hatch looks when the lights are off, you’re kinda like ‘Am I in the same space that I was at the beginning of the episode?’ It’s very exciting to go in with Jack, um, and experience all these things as he experiences them.”

OK, that “with Jack” is Damon’s emphasis. It seems to me that we’re being told that we are experiencing what Jack is experiencing at that specific moment, and that HE is wondering if he’s in the same space that he was at the beginning of the episode. As you know, I’m convinced that Jack was in those opening scenes in the Swan, and that the montage cuts between him and Desmond. Surely Damon’s comment confirms this?

Another interesting thing I noticed, which may (or may not!) confirm my theory that Jack’s tattoo is some kind of Dharma logo. The makers are discussing the scene in which Walt appears to Shannon in the jungle, especially in relation to the Easter Eggs they hide in episodes, when the onscreen action moves to Jack and Hurley walking through the jungle and discussing Hurley’s fascination with The Numbers:

Carlton Cuse: There’s a Dharma logo on that torch, isn’t there?”

Jack Bender: Nobody’s wondered about Matt’s tattoos.

Cuse is obviously joking because I don’t think there is a logo on the torch, but Bender’s comments immediately afterwards seem to imply that there is a Dharma logo elsewhere in the scene - namely on Jack’s arm! And his comment seems to stick out a mile because it’s just thrown in there for no apparent reason, nobody else responds to it, and they then all start talking about something else.

B.t.w does anyone know if the transcripts to the makers’ commentaries in the dvd extras are available online anywhere? I wonder if there are any other clues hidden in them?

My theory is/was that Jack did a tour in the Swan hatch, like Des. (Hildy and I have had many discussions on that, I think they're earlier in this thread.) ...
Suddenly, everything about Jack makes sense.

I love this post!

It does make sense to Jack's seemingly eratic behaviour.

I still have doubts he wouldn't 've recognized the island right away when he crashed there. Perhaps he did and held those cards to his chest as well.

The theory that Jack returned to the island from the future (ie that he's reliving the time after the crash) still holds water, imo. But I understand you're not buying that.

The theory that Jack returned to the island from the future (ie that he's reliving the time after the crash) still holds water, imo. But I understand you're not buying that.

Yeah I know - sorry about that!

The problem is, I do actually think that specific statement “Jack returned to the island from the future” is correct - just not in the way you’re saying. This is quite complicated to explain but please bear with me.

Everything seems to be hinting at Jack returning to the island at some point “in the future” - namely, after the Oceanic 6 rescue which we witnessed “in real time” at the end of S4. This might well happen, but it’s not what I’m talking about here. I think Jack’s INITIAL return had occurred when he woke up after the crash, and there’s a whole part of his REAL pre-crash story which still has to be openly revealed. (“Openly” because I reckon we’ve already seen a heavily disguised, metaphoric version of it in the flashbacks).

Everything also seems to be hinting at the possibility that Jack’s “post-Oceanic 6 rescue” return will involve some kind of time travel. Again, I concede that this might well happen in future episodes but it’s not what I’m talking about here. I think events on the island including and since the “crash” have actually been taking place in the future, (ie. at some point after 2008 to explain FF Jack’s Motorola phone and that newspaper clipping, plus countless supposed flashback prop errors with the “wrong” post-2004 provenance); and that everyone has merely been made to believe that these events have been taking place back in 2004. So in effect, my theory tallies with Faraday’s (?) explanation of time travel as involving the consciousness rather than the physical body - the Losties think they’re in 2004 even though they’re physically still existing in 2010. Which means its still fair to say that Jack had “time travelled” back to the island because in his mind he had.

I am prepared to be wrong about this but I just don’t think I will be. Blind optimism on Hildy’s part, perhaps?!

Now if we’re right to speculate that Jack (at the very least?) HAD been on the island before the so-called Crash, it raises all kinds of questions as to why he wouldn’t remember he’d been there before or, if he does remember, then why has he been lying about it for all this time. The only answer I’ve ever been able to come up with is that Jack HAD to have been brain-washed or hypnotised to genuinely believe it was his first time there. Or he’s an extremely good actor!

And if Jack had returned to the island when he woke up after the crash, why had he gone back? Was it a constructive or destructive mission? What has he accomplished this time round or, perhaps more likely, what hasn’t he accomplished?

I personally think Jack’s return was specifically related to Desmond - Jack’s “White Rabbit”, if you like, since Des retrieved his White Rabbit-like fob watch when he left the army garrison. - although I can’t decide whether it was to rescue or dispose of him. I’m hoping he’d gone back to rescue him, like some kind of latter-day Scarlet Pimpernel. This explanation would definately explain countless references to the French Revolution and the colour red.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Pimpernel

Now if Jack had been programmed to believe he was someone else, in order to provide a water tight cover story for being on the island when he shouldn’t have been, it’s tragically ironic that as a result he wouldn’t be able to recognize the person he’d gone to the island in search of! (In fact, I think this is what FF Jack’s intial scenes at Hoffs Drawler in TTLG were really about - not recognizing the person he’d found in the Swan, and being forced to stay “under cover” longer as a result. Hence the sunglasses FF Jack puts on as he leaves the funeral parlour - I’m sure they’re a metaphor for his mental and physical disguise). However, if Jack’s subconscious mission had been to “save Desmond’s life”, then he’s done that - by reviving him after the helicopter crashed into the water. Which could mean that Jack’s mouth-to-mouth resuscitation of Desmond was the actual “spectacular kiss” that was so relevant in the S4 finale!

I think Jack’s INITIAL return had occurred when he woke up after the crash, and there’s a whole part of his REAL pre-crash story which still has to be openly revealed. (“Openly” because I reckon we’ve already seen a heavily disguised, metaphoric version of it in the flashbacks).
That's my take, too.
Only as I've said, I don't think he was brainwashed, I think he didn't recognizeanything on the island until he entered the Swan.

No brainwashing or amnesia required. Before the Swan, Jack had only seen the beach, the caves, and the dark territory. During his previous visit to the island, he didn't go to those places, so he didn't know the plane had crashed on Craphole island.
When Ben was introduced, it was emphasized that the Others didn't normally go to the beach area, and the Dharmites seemed to stay close to New Otherton.
So... imo, once Jack left the beach and the dark territory, he realized he wasn't on some random island. To his great astonishment he was back at a place he'd been before. It's even possible he had been at New Otherton... he certainly looked "at home" there, didn't he?.... tossing a football, playing the piano.


Everything also seems to be hinting at the possibility that Jack’s “post-Oceanic 6 rescue” return will involve some kind of time travel. Again, I concede that this might well happen in future episodes but it’s not what I’m talking about here. You're right, a lot of people think that - mostly, I guess because time travel's been introduced. I've seen no one yet say WHY they think Jack and/or the O6 will time travel. Good gravy, they're gonna have a hard enough time just finding the island.

Now, if folks are saying the island itself has moved to the past or the future and the O6 therefore will have to find a way to get to that past or that future, then I think they've got a spec. But most time-travel specs seem to swirl around time-travel as an end in itself..

I am prepared to be wrong about this but I just don’t think I will be. Blind optimism on Hildy’s part, perhaps?! Tninking out of the box, on Hildy's part!

OK Lostmio, I give up - let’s look at the “no brainwashing” possibility! :biggrin:

Let’s assume you’re right and Jack had previously been stationed on Craphole, had completed a tour of duty “entering the numbers” down in the Swan, and then been sent back to the US mainland where he went on to establish a successful career as a surgeon. I can accept that if he’d only been granted limited access to certain areas previously, then this would explain why he didn’t necessarily recognise every single element of the island when he initially “crashed” there - but why not mention those aspects that he did recognise later on? Surely even a limited level of “insider knowledge” would’ve been useful in the Losties’ attempts to get off the island (eg. “Well, when I went home we left by plane so there’s gotta be an airstrip and a radio somewhere” or “I left by submarine so we’d better start looking for it”). And if Dharma was as covert an operation as it seems to have been, and if Jack was aware of this as a former worker who’d only been allowed limited access, then why didn’t he say as much? (eg. “Nobody knows where this place is so we’ll probably be here some time”).

So if you’re right about Jack’s past connection with the island, and his conscious awareness of this fact, then there’s definately something suspect about his silence on the matter. I can’t believe that he’s keeping quiet because he’s frightened of Dharma finding out that he’s revealed the truth about their secret operation, and punishing him as a result. After all, as far as he’s (and we’re) aware, Dharma is no longer active there having been overthrown by the Others, and many hatches have been left abandoned, so it’s obviously (?!) not an active station any more. And why hasn’t he been more intrigued to find out just how the Others managed to overthrow Dharma in the first place? Surely he’d be curious to discover just how and why things had degenerated so much in the years since he’d last been there?

Does Jack’s silence imply that there must’ve been something dodgy about his work for Dharma, and that he felt embarassed or ashamed at what he’d been doing there previously? And any ideas what that work could’ve entailed, other than simply entering the numbers?

B.t.w I agree that Jack did seem mightily at home in New Otherton. My guess - Ben’s house was previously Jack’s!

H x

OKSurely even a limited level of “insider knowledge” would’ve been useful in the Losties’ attempts to get off the island (eg. “Well, when I went home we left by plane so there’s gotta be an airstrip and a radio somewhere” or “I left by submarine so we’d better start looking for it”). And if Dharma was as covert an operation as it seems to have been, and if Jack was aware of this as a former worker who’d only been allowed limited access, then why didn’t he say as much? (eg. “Nobody knows where this place is so we’ll probably be here some time”). :biggrin: How does that NOT sound like the show we've been watching?

So if you’re right about Jack’s past connection with the island, and his conscious awareness of this fact, then there’s definately something suspect about his silence on the matter. "There's something definitely suspect about Jack on the island" is a huge part of MY Lost paradigm..

And any ideas what that work could’ve entailed, other than simply entering the numbers? None, but we know he sure as heck had a number-entering phobia, long before Locke ever began punching in those digits. "Jack doth protest waaay too much" about that in MoSMoF.
Jack may have had a similar motivation or assignment as Kelvin.... and we still don't know everything about Kelvin. He was overqualified for button-punching duty, dontcha think?
On the other hand, Des and Locke were supremely at home in the role. They finally found something they couldn't possibly bungle.... um, uh-oh, never mind.

Hildy & Lostmio,

It took me 4 days at work to get thru this whole thread and it was like reading a great novel and I was excited to get back to where I left off the previous day. Kudos to the other participants that chimed in their theories. I have a few questions that I hope you can take a stab on:

(1) What role does "Smokey" play in all this?? Is "Smokey" there to help the survivors remember their past lives(if we go by the premise that Hildy has beautifully advocated that they are different people on the island) because it seems "Smokey" shows them their past(Eko was shown his childhood ect). I hope this question makes sense.

(2) I read all of HILDY's argument and I believe one "mobisode" that was shown last year gives his theory a great shot in the arm. #13(So it Begins). I will spoiler font just in case someone did not see it.

We see the jungle and hear someone running. The view is low to the ground. We hear panting. It's Vincent. He passes open suitcases and sniffs them. Turbine wreckage can be heard in the distance. Vincent hears a whistle. We see legs. It's Christian. He talks to Vincent.]

CHRISTIAN: Come here, come on. Come on. Come on. [Vincent runs towards him] Good boy. Come on. Come here. Come here. Good boy. Yes. [He leans down and pets him.] I need you to go find my son. He's over there in that bamboo forest, unconscious. I need you to go wake him up. Okay? Go on.

[Vincent whines and runs off.]

CHRISTIAN: He has work to do.
[We see Jack’s eye open just like the beginning of the Pilot. Jack wakes up slowly, looks around, sees Vincent come through the jungle. Vincent whines, runs by him, and runs off.]
Retrieved from "http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/So_It_Begins_transcript"

That one line from Christian fits in with Hildy's whole premise. Maybe it was his 2nd time around and good old Christian is there to lead him in the right direction???

Great job by everyone again. I will try to participate more but enjoy reading it all.

I read all of HILDY's argument and I believe one "mobisode" that was shown last year gives his theory a great shot in the arm. #13(So it Begins). I will spoiler font just in case someone did not see it.

We see the jungle and hear someone running. The view is low to the ground. We hear panting. It's Vincent. He passes open suitcases and sniffs them. Turbine wreckage can be heard in the distance. Vincent hears a whistle. We see legs. It's Christian. He talks to Vincent.]

CHRISTIAN: Come here, come on. Come on. Come on. [Vincent runs towards him] Good boy. Come on. Come here. Come here. Good boy. Yes. [He leans down and pets him.] I need you to go find my son. He's over there in that bamboo forest, unconscious. I need you to go wake him up. Okay? Go on.

[Vincent whines and runs off.]

CHRISTIAN: He has work to do.
[We see Jack’s eye open just like the beginning of the Pilot. Jack wakes up slowly, looks around, sees Vincent come through the jungle. Vincent whines, runs by him, and runs off.]
Retrieved from "http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/So_It_Begins_transcript"

That one line from Christian fits in with Hildy's whole premise. Maybe it was his 2nd time around and good old Christian is there to lead him in the right direction???

Great job by everyone again. I will try to participate more but enjoy reading it all.

I think that bit was Jack's second time around too... just that I disagree that Jack has been on the island before as an adult anyway....

I think the show is playing with the order of things even without the obvious FB and FF device.

For instance I just posted somewhere that Emily Locke was hit by the car AFTER she had John... why she wasn't pregnant... the two traumas are blended together to appear as one. Whatever happened to Emily to get her to the hospital, I don't think it was the car crash.

I think CS and Vincent are on the island from before (Flight 815) Jack arrives via teleportation (Ben has some ideas) and cut/splice we begin with the Flight 815 crash again... Full circle. Okham's razor.

:biggrin: How does that NOT sound like the show we've been watching?.

Yeah ok, so I probably picked the wrong examples there! (Duh, how could I forget his “lets get the transceiver” comments back in the very first epi?!). But hopefully you can still see what I’m getting at. If he was aware that he’d been on the island before, why didn’t he tell someone. I know these people don’t exactly sit down around the camp-fire for long in-depth conversations about their pasts, but surely he would’ve revealed his “innocent” connection to the island if he was aware of it - even if only to stop Locke’s constant “it’s your/our/my destiny” crap by giving him a valid, logical and non-mystical explanation for the island (if, of course, there is one) rather than simply just shouting or glaring at him all the time! Why would Jack feel that it was so important to keep it a secret? Does his silence imply that he has to be one of the bad guys, simply because he’s “obviously” got something to hide? Could it mean that he’s still working for Dharma and has been sent there as a mole to infiltrate and overthrow the Others? (Actually, the Losties have kind of done that, haven’t they?!) Does this mean that the crash of Flight 815 was no accident? Or is it all just some weird coincidence?

Meanwhile, I don’t know if you were aware of this one, Lostmio, but I’m hoping you’ll like it. According to transcripts over on lostpedia, the whispers heard when Jack is fiddling with the intercom in the Hydra (TOTC) include the line “It's not easy keeping something that secret / sacred". Which, annoyingly (!) seems to add strength to your theory, dammit.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Whisper_transcripts#.22A_Tale_of_Two_Cities.22

I dunno, I am kind of warming to your theory ... but I still like my one better! Convince me some more. Can you give me some more examples which show that Jack had “obviously” been on the island before and, more importantly, is aware of that fact? And do you think he’s acting alone in all this?

Hildy, I'm like you. While I love Lostmio, I'm wholly unconvinced that this is Jack's second time there in any form.

Hildy, I'm like you. While I love Lostmio, I'm wholly unconvinced that this is Jack's second time there in any form.


Correct me if I am wrong but they both are claiming this is Jack's second time on the island. Lostmio claims he knows basically the whole island and has been slowly gaining the knowledge back But Hildy claims he and desmond switched who they were so that Jack could escape the island but never ventured further than the 108 minutes allowed therefore look on his face in MOFMOS was like I have been here before.

I like both but having a hard time wrapping around them switching roles and pretending to be each other. I tend to lean towards Lostmio saying that Jack knew the island and came back.

I like Hildy's point that the Pilot was actually Jack's second time on island and he finally made it back. Christian does say in the Mobisode "He has work to do" which clinched it for me.

Meanwhile, I don’t know if you were aware of this one, Lostmio, but I’m hoping you’ll like it. I do like it, very much. I'm not a big fan of the whispers as clues, tho. I think they add layers, complexity, mystery, depth...

Convince me some more. Can you give me some more examples which show that Jack had “obviously” been on the island before and, more importantly, is aware of that fact? And do you think he’s acting alone in all this? Did I say "obviously"? mea culpa.
If there's anything "obvious", it's that there's something just not right about Jack's landing in the jungle. You and I and thousands of theorists agree on that, right? And the "and so it begins" mobisode only fueled the flame.

Somewhere in the wayback stuff, there's a post in which I juxtapositioned Jack's and Des's unforgettable tour de stadium scene and I offered it up as a striking visual metaphor that suggested the two had more in common than meets the eye. That scene is all about them having a shared experience... imo, a Swan tour.
Visual metaphors go right over the heads of many folks but I think it's a favorite TPTB device.
I'm still looking for that post, will link to it when I can find it, it's such a bother digging up those caps again.

Other than the odd bamboo jungle landing and the tour de stadium, there's 3) the lack of any Jack fb's between boy Jack and Sarah's wreck Jack. That's a huge chunk of yet-to-be-explained Jack time; 4) Jack's very odd behavior in MoSMoF, coupled with the dvd commentary; 5) Jack's knowing the numbers and the armory combination lock after just hearing them once; and about a half-dozen other little things...

Then in the finale, we had this juxtapostion, which I found interesting on several levels.. I'm intrigued by the Jack/Charlotte parallel but even more so by the Locke/Miles parallel.
I know I'm digressing but for the life of me, I can't fathom why Miles chose to stay on the island.


MILES: I'm surprised you wanna leave.
CHARLOTTE: Sorry?
MILES: It's just weird. You know, after all that time you spent trying to get back here.
CHARLOTTE: What do you mean, get back here?
MILES: ...What do I mean?
LOCKE: I want you to reconsider leaving the island, Jack. I would like you to stay.
JACK: You'd like me to stay.
LOCKE: Yeah, that's right.
JACK: (Chuckles) You threw a knife into the back of an unarmed woman. You led half of our people across the island and got most of them killed.
LOCKE: Well, Jack, you put a gun to my head and you pulled the trigger. I was hoping we could let bygones be bygones.
JACK: Well, I' tell you what. You stay here in your little greenhouse, but the rest of us are going home.
LOCKE: But you're not supposed to go home.
JACK: And what am i supposed to do? Oh, I think I remember. What was it that you said on the way out to the hatch--that crashing here was our destiny?
LOCKE: You know, Jack. You know that you're here for a reason. You know it. And if you leave this place, that knowledge is gonna eat you alive from the inside out... until you decide to come back.
100%
Correct me if I am wrong but they both are claiming this is Jack's second time on the island. Lostmio claims he knows basically the whole island and has been slowly gaining the knowledge back But Hildy claims he and desmond switched who they were
:) A minor quibble, the only thing you got wrong is that I'm a she, not a he..
100%
So why did Jack necessarily need to have worked at the swan? Just because it is one of the more isolating DI stations?
Because it's the station that required the workers to stay within a 108 minute round trip.. that's 54-minutes, 1-way.
The writers made a huge deal of this, and they've continued to hammer in that distances between various places on the island range from 2 hours to an overnight trip. I think it's an important plot point..

Just a quickie, because I’m meant to be getting packed to go away for the weekend!

Atlas1212 and Conrick - actually, I need to correct you both there. I agree with Lostmio that Jack most likely has been on the island before. Where our theories differ is that she reckons Jack’s previous tour of duty gave him a limited access to and knowledge of certain areas of the island (like the Swan, and anywhere else the 108 minutes allowed him to venture), so that’s why he didn’t initially realise he was back there. My theory is that he was more or less running the show on the island previously and therefore has a much more intimate knowledge of it than his current behaviour necessarily openly reveals. I also reckon he had to escape for some reason (The Purge?), then realised he had to go back (to wreak revenenge and /or rescue Desmond), was programmed/brain-washed to believe that he was somebody else (ie. who’d never been to the island) to provide him with the perfect cover-story, and therefore only has subconscious recollections of the place. Hence his apparent confusion when they uncovered the Swan - something about it was making him uneasy but he couldn’t quite put his finger on why.

Conrick - I appreciate you don’t necessarily agree with my complex “identity switch” theory regarding Desmond and Jack, but it makes absolute sense to me. It would explain the real reason behind those “see you in another life, brother” exchanges between the two men; and the duplicate bunnies which many reckon are a nod to The Prestige (ie. I suggest they’re actually a clue to Christian Bale’s “character” in the movie, and not the Hugh Jackman and Tesslar storyline); and the inclusion of an episode called a Tale of Two Cities (ie. Dickens’ epic is about 2 identical men who switch places so that one can escape the French Revolution). Plus in early episodes Jack revealed he was having trouble sleeping, at the same time that Desmond was incarcerated in the Swan and suffering from sleep deprivation; and throughout S2 Jack was always swigging from a water bottle, whilst Des was trying to escape on a boat and most probably suffering from lack of water; and perhaps Des was so convinced Charlie would inevitably die (most notably, initially from drowning whilst trying to save Claire) because he was subconsciously aware of his brother’s emotions regarding saving Boone from drowning but being unable to prevent him from dying later. In other words, they’re co-dependent twins and it explains the whole “Bad Twin”undercurrent running through the show. (Boy, will I be embarrassed when I inevitably turn out to be wrong about all this!).

Lostmio - glad you liked that whisper transcript. Like you, I’m not usually a big fan of the whispers (probably because I can’t get my head around what they could actually mean in the grand scheme of things!), but this one did seem to add strength to your theory. I have to say I am definately warming to it, although I still reckon that all the losties knew or were somehow connected previously, even if they don’t remember now. So I always tend to come back to that darned “brainwashed/programmed” theory again - I can’t escape it!

Sorry if I implied you said Jack had “obviously” been on the island previously - that was actually meant to be my emphasis. And our discussion of that vital tour de stade scene was conducted via private messages, although I don’t mind if you quote any of our comments here for others to read. I’ll get back to you on the Miles thang next week, if that’s ok.

Have a good weekend, folks!

H x