Welcome to the LOST Rewind for episode 1x19, "Deus Ex Machina".

*The episode marks another important turning point for John Locke. For the first time we really see his faith shaken as he cries out "This was supposed to work!" Though he is tested he doesn't seem to bear it well: "But, but, this island, it changed me. It made me whole. Now it's trying to take it back and I don't know why." Later he tells the Hatch itself, "I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me?"

Can this be considered the early signs of the weary, almost broken Locke we witnessed in the hatch during Season 2?

*While his losing feeling and then use of his legs seems to be the most apparent symbol of his increasingly shaky connection with the Island, he also very quickly checks a compass, something he had thought he didn't need to do anymore.

*Notice how many times the word "supposed" is used throughout the episode. Is Locke really doing what he's supposed to do or only what he wants to think he's supposed to do? Discuss this in the context of Locke being the "Man of Faith".

*We witness the origin of his anger issues as well. Can it be said that they really originate in the conflict between the way Locke wants the world to be with the way it really is?

*Does Locke see a parallel between his father conning him and himself leading Boone around, doing what they're "supposed" to do, only to lead him to disaster and death?

*We discover the Nigerian Pane for the first time, the origin of which was partially explained in episode 2x10, "The 23rd Psalm". Oddly enough the bodies found in the plane during this episode and "Psalm" seem to have disappeared from it in episode 3x05, "The Cost of Living". Were the bodies ever there in the first place or were they another manifestation of the Island?

*The show opens with Locke's explanation of the game "Mousetrap":
Well, you start with all these parts off the board. And then, one by one, you build the trap - shoe, bucket, tub - piece by piece it all comes together. And then you wait 'til your opponent lands here on the old cheese wheel. And then if you set it up just right, you spring the trap.

Is he describing Cooper's cons? Is he really describing LOST?

*Though up to this point it almost seems the Island downloaded a tracker persona into Locke, it's revealed here that Cooper was the one who taught him how to hunt.

*TPTB have done an excellent job at this point building the ominous aura of the Hatch: it seems to be indestructible, has no handle, bears the NUMBERS and is feared by Walt. On top of that it even looks like an eye, something that's played around with in the final iconic scene of this episode. At this point the hatch was all things to all people and spawned a million different theories. Was the hatch too good of a MacGuffin? Could it do anything but disappoint once it was opened?

Was the hatch too good of a MacGuffin? Could it do anything but disappoint once it was opened?
Hey, DESMOND was inside the hatch! How can that possibly be disappointing? :biggrin:

Recall the other "deity" references of this eppy in regard to Locke: his nutty mom telling him he was immaculately conceived; then, when he tells Cooper this, the man laughs and says, "I guess that makes me God, then!"

Also, Locke showing up to scream at the hatch just as Desmond was preparing to kill himself was construed by Desmond as Providence (or destiny or universe course correcting) at work; the message was that he was NOT to die.

There's no doubt about it: when Darlton and the writers are at their best, they weave a theme thru EVERYTHING in the eppy! (Even the parts, like Desmond's near suicide, we don't learn about till later!)

Recall the other "deity" references of this eppy in regard to Locke: his nutty mom telling him he was immaculately conceived; then, when he tells Cooper this, the man laughs and says, "I guess that makes me God, then!"

Yup... Locke carried Cooper's body as Jesus carried the cross, too, in "The Brig".

Welcome to the LOST Rewind for episode 1x19, "Deus Ex Machina".

*The episode marks another important turning point for John Locke. For the first time we really see his faith shaken as he cries out "This was supposed to work!" Though he is tested he doesn't seem to bear it well: "But, but, this island, it changed me. It made me whole. Now it's trying to take it back and I don't know why." Later he tells the Hatch itself, "I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me?"

Can this be considered the early signs of the weary, almost broken Locke we witnessed in the hatch during Season 2?



Good points, Rabbit.

I see the pounding on the hatch as part of Campbell's "Descent, Initiation, Penetration: Road of Trials."

Next would come Approach to the Inmost Cave
Ordeal and then Reward (Vogler)

Inmost Cave = Inside the hatch (That's a "well duh!" Too easy.)
But...
Ordeal = ?

Reward = ?

What do you think?

P. S. I am using Vogler's ... Journey 2nd Edition because it's easier to read than "Hero w/1000 Faces." I'm lazy and it's simplier to scan/read.
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Deux Ex Machina Timeline

Boone and Locke find the hatch on Day 16, Thursday Oct. 7 2004. (All The Best Cowboys ... )

23 days later, Deus Ex Machina eps. begins. It is now Day 39, Saturday, October 30, 2004.

Eps ends 3 days later on Day 41, Monday November 1, 2004.

Reference: Timeline - Lostpedia [ http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline ]

P. S. Deux Ex Machina (literally "god out of a machine") describes an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, ... read more at Wikipedia [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina%5D) ]

~ So Boone sustains his fatal injuries on Nov 1st? - that's All Saints' Day. - cool! :biggrin: ~

I just came upon the forums for The Fuselage, and I'm really excited to be here and to come upon the current 'Rewind' episode, which happens to be one of my ABSOLUTE favorites!

Re: The Mousetrap metaphor...
Also, in Season 3, Ben deliberately manipulates Locke into following his plan. He essentially uses Locke, makes a mockery out of him, has him kill his father, and then Ben shoots him and leaves him for dead. Trap's sprung.

I also loved the montage of Locke's dream- totally reminded me of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Interesting that Locke was the one really shaken by Boone's accident and later death- he pounds on the door of the Hatch asking, "Why?" So much for Man of Faith, as he really questions what the other Lostaways are accepting. Also- Locke was more Man of Little Emotion. Did Boone's accident/death really spring something for him?

Also- noteworthy parallel with Boone falling from the cliff/Locke falling from the window in 'The Man from Tallahassee' (and even Locke falling into the pit when Ben shoots him). While one son's father/'father' pushes him off a high ledge and doesn't care, the other 'son' falls from a high ledge, and the 'father' mourns him.

I think too much when I watch Lost.

Also- end orchestral piece when Locke is banging on the Hatch is one of my favorite instrumental pieces. Of. All. Time.

*The show opens with Locke's explanation of the game "Mousetrap":

Is he describing Cooper's cons? Is he really describing LOST?

At this point the hatch was all things to all people and spawned a million different theories. Was the hatch too good of a MacGuffin? Could it do anything but disappoint once it was opened?

I remember on my first time through, by the second half of the pilot I had a strong feeling that what was happening on the island was somewhat akin to a game. I'm not sure if I still think that, but I don't think it can be discounted when thinking about this show. It was, of course, also a parallel to Cooper's con of Locke and maybe even Locke's con of Boone. At the time of the episode I didn't think Locke willingly (and knowingly) sacrificed Boone, but all the "sacrifice the island demanded" makes me think on it. Is it something he says to justify what happened to Boone, or is it an excuse for doing to Boone what he thought the island had told him to do?

The ending to this episode is one of the very best, and it's still a very powerful scene. The lead up to the Hatch certainly was something that meant all things to all people, and I don't think anything would have been able to live up to expectations, imagination being what it is.

Hey, I liked what the hatch was revealed to be! Don't I count? :unhappy:

Anyone ever reflect that Cooper's situation with Locke's mom mirrors James' situation with Cassidy? I suspect mom was Cooper's con target. Then she got pregnant. Same with James and Cassidy. In the end, both men were generous financially. (Cooper to mom directly, since she'd given John over to foster care; James to Clementine, though Cassidy would oversee the account till Clemmie came of age.) But neither could/would make a relationship commitment to the woman in question.

These writers really can be very, very good.

Haha, yes of course you count. I liked how it all played out, too, but I don't think anything can ever live up to imagination. Surely there must have been something else rattling around in your head that seemed better at the time than what we were eventually presented with. There was in mine :)

I'm guessing here, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that Des is the best thing that came out of that stroyline ;)

Surely there must have been something else rattling around in your head that seemed better at the time than what we were eventually presented with.
Actually, no. I thought the light was something that automatically switched on when some system picked up that someone was outside (in this case, Locke). I thought the hatch would be deserted, but they'd pick up some important clues there.

What REALLY happened was a VERY pleasant surprise for me! :biggrin:

I'm guessing here, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that Des is the best thing that came out of that storyline ;)
Oh, YEAH! :happy_bounce:

Haha, yes of course you count. I liked how it all played out, too, but I don't think anything can ever live up to imagination. Surely there must have been something else rattling around in your head that seemed better at the time than what we were eventually presented with. There was in mine :)

I'm guessing here, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that Des is the best thing that came out of that stroyline ;)

"Des was the best thing to come out of the hatch." Signed, TeenyThor
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I just came upon the forums for The Fuselage, and I'm really excited to be here and to come upon the current 'Rewind' episode, which happens to be one of my ABSOLUTE favorites!

I think too much when I watch Lost.

Also- end orchestral piece when Locke is banging on the Hatch is one of my favorite instrumental pieces. Of. All. Time.

1. Welcome to the 'Lage. Your insights are always welcome.

2. Thinking is good. Thinking too much is not too bad. Not thinking is bad.

3. Finally, someone noticing that there is some great incidental music playing in the background. Michael Giacchino is not credited enough for his contributions to the show. Yeah, it has an "Alias" flavor to it but hey! that's Giacchino for ya'.

The mousetrap that Locke described is the hatch and the tedious job of pushing the button once you're inside. He was led into this trap of pushing the button, just as he was led into giving up his kidney. I also caught how he referred to the hatch as a "bastard," (you know what the word is) a word which he might be all too familiar with. I also liked Emily's description of Locke as a special person. He is part of a "design." "Design (http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/Design.htm)" is a famous poem by Robert Frost about "fate" or maybe coincidence, or something a lot more "evil."

Oh yessss, rewind for my favorite ep of all time. :biggrin:


*The episode marks another important turning point for John Locke. For the first time we really see his faith shaken as he cries out "This was supposed to work!" Though he is tested he doesn't seem to bear it well: "But, but, this island, it changed me. It made me whole. Now it's trying to take it back and I don't know why." Later he tells the Hatch itself, "I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me?"

Can this be considered the early signs of the weary, almost broken Locke we witnessed in the hatch during Season 2?

Perhaps the entire encounter with the hatch in the first place was one big ominous test on Locke's faith, by the island somehow. It sure does represent that. The moment he started getting obsessed with his was the moment he ran into trouble with his perfectly knowing, shamanic ways we saw before. And it grew steeply from there. Even Walt, who is a substantial model of accurate foreboding, warned Locke heavily about the hatch. He knew.

But then good came out of the hatch. He saved Desmond's life so that Desmond could arguably save the island or world from total destruction (unless that's just my rampant imagination). How do you go about that? Was it or was it not supposed to happen? What were the warning signs for? Was Walt wrong or right?

Maybe only time can tell.

*While his losing feeling and then use of his legs seems to be the most apparent symbol of his increasingly shaky connection with the Island, he also very quickly checks a compass, something he had thought he didn't need to do anymore.

I have never noticed him looking at a compass. :confused:

*Notice how many times the word "supposed" is used throughout the episode. Is Locke really doing what he's supposed to do or only what he wants to think he's supposed to do? Discuss this in the context of Locke being the "Man of Faith".

I like this notion. Somehow it reminds me of an analogy to teenhood, and how teens think they know what they want (what they're *supposed* to do), but they're really confused. Perhaps Locke's still trying to grow into a "mature adult" on the island, from awkward puberty. *snicker*

I also like this notion because it automatically opens up more windows to where Locke's character can go down the plotline of the show. His purpose may become more complex/different than what we first thought.

*Does Locke see a parallel between his father conning him and himself leading Boone around, doing what they're "supposed" to do, only to lead him to disaster and death?

I don't think so. Locke really believed they were going to find something helpful, wonderful, and maybe he was so blinded by this *supposed to* idea/goal in his mind that he carelessly didn't want to heed the bad signs in his dream. Perhaps after the whole disaster happened he finally came to his senses with brutal reality. I'll bet he then thought he should have paid attention to the negative warning signs.

*We discover the Nigerian Plane for the first time, the origin of which was partially explained in episode 2x10, "The 23rd Psalm". Oddly enough the bodies found in the plane during this episode and "Psalm" seem to have disappeared from it in episode 3x05, "The Cost of Living". Were the bodies ever there in the first place or were they another manifestation of the Island?

Continuity error is the first thing that comes to my mind. In "...And Found" I think, Eko and Jin came across Goodwin's dead body down low on some slope, but in "The Other 48 Days", he's clearly fallen to die at the peak of the hill that he and Ana were on. I've always been thrown off by that. Are these possibly done on purpose?

*The show opens with Locke's explanation of the game "Mousetrap":

Well, you start with all these parts off the board. And then, one by one, you build the trap - shoe, bucket, tub - piece by piece it all comes together. And then you wait 'til your opponent lands here on the old cheese wheel. And then if you set it up just right, you spring the trap.

Is he describing Cooper's cons? Is he really describing LOST?

He can't be describing Cooper's cons, at least not consciously, because he doesn't even know that the guy exists yet. Not until later in the episode.

*Though up to this point it almost seems the Island downloaded a tracker persona into Locke, it's revealed here that Cooper was the one who taught him how to hunt.

And so it seems that even though Cooper was by far the worst influence in Locke's life, he helped set up Locke to be exactly where he is now. Even paralyzing him was setting him up to witness a miracle that made him believe in this island so strongly. In a twisted way, Cooper could almost be the best thing that ever happened to him, in disguise (at least if you believe Locke will find a truly great destiny on the island). Apparently, "everything happens for a reason".

*TPTB have done an excellent job at this point building the ominous aura of the Hatch: it seems to be indestructible, has no handle, bears the NUMBERS and is feared by Walt. On top of that it even looks like an eye, something that's played around with in the final iconic scene of this episode. At this point the hatch was all things to all people and spawned a million different theories. Was the hatch too good of a MacGuffin? Could it do anything but disappoint once it was opened?

I remember the hype of THE HATCH. When those lights went up, my imagination ran more wild than ever before on the show. Somehow I imagined something huge, but stupid in retrospect like ghosts, aliens or something really really out there. My expectations were soaring and I knew they wouldn't be correct, but I wasn't disappointed by the season 2 premiere. Especially with the whole Desmond/Jack reveal. That left me practically screaming. :eek2:




I know that's a lot, but what can I say, my favorite ep. :redface: Oh, and Michael Giacchino slays me over and over and over again with these pieces; not just the gust-blasting ending, but the atmosphere throughout the entire ep was foreboding, adventurous, devastating, uplifting and truly the most precious hour of TV I may have ever witnessed. That actually goes for all departments in the making of this one.

Yeah, the score is really fantastic. I think my favorite is the ending to Walkabout, but the ending here is great.

I watched this episode last night, great stuff!

I kind of think that the run of events after Locke had his dream is one of two possible scenarios, one being good and one being bad. I also think that Locke's choices determined which scenario would occur.

The bad of the situation was that, most obviously, Boone died. Then also Locke didn't get any of the answers that he wanted. And thirdly, the plane falling releases the drugs onto the island, which later causes a problem for Charlie.

In the alternative situation Boone doesn't climb up into the plane, and so therefore he doesn't die, and also the drugs don't become a problem. Also, Locke gets his answers. In the form of the Pearl hatch, which the dream may have originally been trying to point him towards.

I personally think that Locke knew Boone would die, and saw him as a sacrifice. His legs were beginning to become useless again, and he thought the island demanded Boone's life of him. But maybe this was the test, if Locke had stopped Boone climbing up to the plane because it was too dangerous then they would have found the Pearl hatch instead.

I think that the interesting thing here is destiny, as Locke seems to have an obvious choice. But is his, and everybody else's, destiny defined by their personalities. In this situation, Locke can choose to not to let Boone climb the plane, but this is a choice that John Locke would never take under these circumstances, because he values being able to walk above anything else.

This is really confusing, but this idea of destiny means that even though Locke had a choice, Boone was already fated to die, because the outcome of Locke's choice was was only ever going to be one thing.

This is one of my favourite episodes and although it isn't really a prevalent theme in this episode, it really made me think about choice vs freewill.

S3 ends with Jack about to make a choice, and one that, from what we know about him already, seems obvious. He is proud and stubborn and can't wait to see Ben's face when they leave, enjoys saving people which he thinks he is about to do, and enjoys arguing with Locke who also ruined his last way home.

So does Jack really have a choice, or if he was given this choice 10 times would he choose to call the boat all 10 of those times for the reasons above.


It's worth noting with Locke and Boone that Boone obviously had a choice as well, to climb up into the plane or not climb. But he is hotheaded and eager to prove himself, so (provided Locke didn't tell him not to - he always listens to Locke) he was also destined to die, despite apparently being able to choose to avoid it.

~ That was a good catch on John's compass checking :smile: so what else is good or caught my interest? ~

The poster in John’s work’s employees’ room reading: Safety Is No Accident and the Table Football game behind.


His PI turning up all that stuff on John’s mom… can anyone help me with this? Her drivers licence has Expires On Birthday on it – should this bare a stamp? Or is it not stamped because it doesn’t expire on her birthday (10-15-40 ~ an unbalanced Libra) but on 03-20-94. You can drive in England until you are 70 and then re-new.

Mom shovelling sugar in her tea – such a lovely little detail, but adding to her overall oddness.

She thought John was adopted – did nobody want him, or did daddy block the adoption?

Boone yelling “here’s your sign” to ‘miraculously conceived’ John – and lobbing a statue of the Virgin Mother at him.

Another eye-colour mystery – Emily’s licence says they are brown, but they’re blue. She may have bought coloured contacts when she dyed her brown hair red of course.

The prominence in this Lockecentric episode, much concerned with the opening of the impenetrable hatch, of the key around Jack’s neck. also his fabulous “new nick-name” line :D

Emily’s fur coat – I don’t know but it says… something… makes her seem from an earlier age.

Off Island John wearing his watch facing out – on Island it oft faces in.

His “everything breaks if you apply the right force” line – horribly prescient.

This about Sawyer as Harry Potter (that I read elsewhere) both parents dead, he saved by his mom, a two guy one girl triangle… guess that makes Jack, Ron!
Sayid being the one to bring the two sides – the black and the white frames – together.

The shot of the man (sat?) with Cooper in a red – probably alligator that he shot himself – frame. Wheelchair bound? And what is that behind them outside – a suspended traffic light… Or Smokey Bear? ;)

Other photos of note: (Coop?) scuba diving with attendant dolphin and arm regenerating starfish (okay – I’m guessing about the starfish), then in Eddie’s guard house, a woman and child, with something red – that I didn’t see on John’s first arrival – and the older black & white one of… whatever that is; a steam engine or race car?

And get this: the big B&W (Unwanted?) poster sized one, of a woman who might be Emily Locke, seen post scam while John raged at the gates.

The butterfly brooch the flittery lightweight wore when she told her son “It was his idea…. but it had to come from you” A Ben Linus MO, who prominently displays butterflies in his office. John however, is a moth I believe. He struggles, but thus far :grin: he aint broke.

~ Something here in my notes I can now not only not read, but feel I wouldn’t understand if I could :rolleyes: ~

Red again, in the lettering where Sayid worked his spectacular magic, and the rockface where Boone made his ascent,

More words: Holton (I think) Tool and Mechanic Co. Bronx (again I think) N Y on something John lifted off Boone.

Boone’s freak out when the body landed on him – that was good.

The navy and magenta stripes on the Beechcraft – same as seen in Adam and Eve’s cave? And where are the seat cushions? Looks like an uncomfortable way to fly.

Gold: teeth in the drug smuggler, signet ring on the PI and previous episode (possibly) in gold mining Kalgoorlie.

Cooper knew where John was, but where was Emily when she “fell off the face of the planet” On the Island, hospitalised under another name… jail – despite the PI findings?

Mike’s nascent understanding of Korean – pretty sure he understands “Faster” and “Idiot” Nice to be reminded of a humorous Mike moment before the whole double murder thing.

Boone: saved from death on the flight by being refused the seat he wanted, saved from drowning in the rip by Jack, may have got Course Corrected; his similarly saved sister – who survived the crash in the same way, survived an asthma attack - is dead too some little time later.

But then I prefer to think that plane got nudged to prevent the discovery of the Pearl. John and Sayid sat near on top of it once, Charlie was a visitor to the Beechcraft crash site too, but it took another climb – by Mr Eko – for the hatch to be uncovered. Again on an occasion when John’s legs failed.

Most likely though Boone died as a result of his heroic attempt to use the radio – despite the immanent and obvious danger of venturing into and remaining in the nose of the plane.

~ Ack! I’m not doing this – I’ve deconstructed Locke’s guilt arguments, defended him, accused him, venerated Boone and moved on before now. ~

Next! :biggrin:

also his fabulous “new nick-name” line
We got JuSt scenes in this eppy! :clap:

I love it when Foxy & Josh get scenes together! Ain't it good to have closest things to a friend on this Island? ;)



Odd how John AND Ben's moms were named Emily. Destiny at work? The two were meant to meet?

SurfingToes:
Interesting that Locke was the one really shaken by Boone's accident and later death- he pounds on the door of the Hatch asking, "Why?" So much for Man of Faith, as he really questions what the other Lostaways are accepting. Also- Locke was more Man of Little Emotion. Did Boone's accident/death really spring something for him?

Asking "why?" does not rule out faith! In fact, it is one of the primary questions asked in faith. I read this excellent book which analyzes the prayers of the Bible, and one of the two most often asked questions in prayer is "why?", why is this happening to me, especially when I am being faithful? (the other is "how long?," how long will this suffering continue?). It's a question that is both a mark of past faith and a challenge for future faith - how will these events impact the faith of the one asking, and the faithfulness of the one being asked?


L-U-D;
I think that the interesting thing here is destiny, as Locke seems to have an obvious choice. But is his, and everybody else's, destiny defined by their personalities. In this situation, Locke can choose to not to let Boone climb the plane, but this is a choice that John Locke would never take under these circumstances, because he values being able to walk above anything else.

This is really confusing, but this idea of destiny means that even though Locke had a choice, Boone was already fated to die, because the outcome of Locke's choice was was only ever going to be one thing.

Oooo, this is really interesting! Especially if we compare Locke/Boone (and later, Eko) with Desmond/Charlie. Both Locke and Desmond have flashes of what will happen to another person, specifically that another person will be terribly hurt if not be killed, and have to decide what to do with that information. Locke is very good at withholding that information for his own benefit, to further his motives. If he tells Boone he has seen Boone covered in blood, Boone might be a tad reluctant to climb up a cliff and into a precariously perched plane, but Locke will not find out what the island seems to be leading him too. Later (in "?"), he does not tell Eko he has seen him fall once he reaches the top of the cliff, but lets him climb anyway... in the same place Boone earlier fell to his death... dude, Locke is way too ready to sacrifice people for his own interests.
Desmond is quite different in his actions. At one point he partially reveals to Charlie what will happen when they go on their "camping trip," but fails to mention Charlie getting shot in the neck by an arrow... all in the pursuit of what he thinks will be a reunion with Penny. But when it comes down to it, he can't let himself sacrifice Charlie for his own interests. (way to go, Des!). Later, Desmond chooses to fully reveal to Charlie what he has seen, and then Charlie chooses to sacrifice himself for the interests of all (but mostly Claire).
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say the choices each character would make were pre-determined/destined/fated (we always have the ability to freely choose to act in out-of-character ways), but both definately do make choices based on the shape of their character (their habits of virtue and vice).

Oooo, this is really interesting! Especially if we compare Locke/Boone (and later, Eko) with Desmond/Charlie. Both Locke and Desmond have flashes of what will happen to another person, specifically that another person will be terribly hurt if not be killed, and have to decide what to do with that information. Locke is very good at withholding that information for his own benefit, to further his motives. If he tells Boone he has seen Boone covered in blood, Boone might be a tad reluctant to climb up a cliff and into a precariously perched plane, but Locke will not find out what the island seems to be leading him too. Later (in "?"), he does not tell Eko he has seen him fall once he reaches the top of the cliff, but lets him climb anyway... in the same place Boone earlier fell to his death... dude, Locke is way too ready to sacrifice people for his own interests.

Just to play devil's advocate here, the difference with Eko is that Locke had no motives at that point, and there was no "sacrifice" going on. He didn't even want to go to the ? at all, in fact stubbornly refused, which of course led to the brute force of headbutting. When Eko wants something, he gets what he wants. This time, in the "?" episode, Eko was the one getting visions at the beginning, which led him to literally force Locke to take him to the plane for his motives, which is an interesting switcharoo. It was all Eko's idea to climb up there, once he heard Locke talk about Yemi, and apparently none of Locke's arguments would be able to stop him, even if he tried. Locke did say that it wasn't safe. So I can hardly say that Locke was willing to 'sacrifice' Eko, when he didn't even want to find out anything. Eko was more than willing to sacrifice himself for his interests.

When I think about it, ? was Eko's version of Deus Ex Machina, the only actual tragedy in the end being Locke's total loss of faith in the button, which led to the hatch showdown. Hmm.... around the same part of the season too.

Yes, you're right, it is "an interesting switcharoo" between Eko and Locke in their unwavering motivation to get to the conclusion of their visions. I had forgotten about that- perhaps I carry the sacrifice language too far. But I would argue Locke gains back some of his old excitement about following his visions and discovering things on the island after his own dream/vision of Eko and Yemi, which leads to Eko climbing the cliff. And though he does say it's dangerous, he neglects to mention the whole falling from the top of the cliff thing, so he is arguably more interested in finding out what will happen than Eko's safety. Granted, his major excitement revives when they actually find the Pearl hatch doors... Locke's "wait... may I?" to Eko as Eko begins to open the doors is classic. I agree, the tragedy of this episode is Locke's complete "loss of faith" at the end.

His PI turning up all that stuff on John’s mom… can anyone help me with this? Her drivers licence has Expires On Birthday on it – should this bare a stamp? Or is it not stamped because it doesn’t expire on her birthday (10-15-40 ~ an unbalanced Libra) but on 03-20-94. You can drive in England until you are 70 and then re-new.


When this episode first aired we tore apart the license and the admission form to Santa Rosa. Both have numerous mistakes on them. Then we find out it was all a con, although it seems parts of it were true.

In California your license is supposed to be renewed on your birthday. On Emily's admission for her Social Security Number is formated incorrectly. All subtle clues this was a set up.

The red folder. Locke's choice. Change the course of your life here, he had an option.

With all due respect, I don't think you guys played Mouse Trap enough. It's really a giant Rube Goldberg contraption and the idea is to have each player alternate building the pieces until it's complete, and just hope that you don't roll the dice that puts your little mouse in the target space when the last piece - the trap - is finally put on. Or pray the little ball gets stuck on the rickety stairs so the thing won't work and your mouse will escape. There's no conniving, subterfuge, or trickery involved although it would have made a lovely metaphor for this episode.
*Speaking as someone who would just assemble the thing over and over for the fun of it as a little person.*

PS - PapaThor - your signature fa ridere, davvero.

*Speaking as someone who would just assemble the thing over and over for the fun of it as a little person.*

PS - PapaThor - your signature fa ridere, davvero.

My Italian is rusty, yet I will try my best to translate it for KittyThor, who has a rather sharp and impish sense of humor.

When this episode first aired we tore apart the license and the admission form to Santa Rosa. Both have numerous mistakes on them. Then we find out it was all a con, although it seems parts of it were true.

In California your license is supposed to be renewed on your birthday. On Emily's admission for her Social Security Number is formated incorrectly. All subtle clues this was a set up.

The red folder. Locke's choice. Change the course of your life here, he had an option.

Thanks for the info Sam :smile: I'm seeing red everywhere now - spotted Jin has a rather handsome pair of red underpants watching Do No Harm today. Well I think I did - I didn't like to linger.

Curious that you say he had a choice - hardly an informed decision if what you are told is untrue though. Red maybe a trigger for Locke - the folder the Other's give him is also red. And this : www.grusha.me.uk/images/whatsthisredthing.jpg (http://www.grusha.me.uk/images/whatsthisredthing.jpg) was at one of his pivitol moments too.

Thanks for the info Sam :smile: I'm seeing red everywhere now - spotted Jin has a rather handsome pair of red underpants watching Do No Harm today. Well I think I did - I didn't like to linger.

Curious that you say he had a choice - hardly an informed decision if what you are told is untrue though. Red maybe a trigger for Locke - the folder the Other's give him is also red. And this : www.grusha.me.uk/images/whatsthisredthing.jpg (http://www.grusha.me.uk/images/whatsthisredthing.jpg) was at one of his pivitol moments too.

Yes, Locke and Red. Emily had red hair and so did Helen. I forget who has read "The Sewing Kit (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66980)" thread but yes, red seems to point to somekind of deception going on.

*The episode marks another important turning point for John Locke. For the first time we really see his faith shaken as he cries out "This was supposed to work!" Though he is tested he doesn't seem to bear it well: "But, but, this island, it changed me. It made me whole. Now it's trying to take it back and I don't know why." Later he tells the Hatch itself, "I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me?"

Can this be considered the early signs of the weary, almost broken Locke we witnessed in the hatch during Season 2?

*Notice how many times the word "supposed" is used throughout the episode. Is Locke really doing what he's supposed to do or only what he wants to think he's supposed to do? Discuss this in the context of Locke being the "Man of Faith".

*We witness the origin of his anger issues as well. Can it be said that they really originate in the conflict between the way Locke wants the world to be with the way it really is?
You're right; this episode is just packed with the phrases "supposed to", "destiny". Even Locke’s private eye warns him (abt the info on his father) This stuff isn’t meant to be, even though it may feel that way.

Locke's own particular brand of heathen faith relies on his receiving messages from the personified Island. Did his destiny tell him to blow up the sub and to kill Naomi? Therefore, in his view, things that happen as a result of his actions aren’t his fault. This is a variation on Christain Shephard’s view of destiny, as an excuse when he fails. Due to their similarities, Locke automatically pushes all Jack’s buttons, so to speak, that his father did. We see that a great deal with Locke's and Jack's conflicts about the hatch and the button beginning in Exodus and continuing all the way thru S2, heck, up to TTLG.


*While his losing feeling and then use of his legs seems to be the most apparent symbol of his increasingly shaky connection with the Island, he also very quickly checks a compass, something he had thought he didn't need to do anymore.
This time around, Locke's checking the loss of feeling in his legs by pin-testing reminds us of Jack pin-testing Sarah’s legs in MosMof. It's as if feeling in the legs is a symbol for faith - as Locke loses his faith in what the Island is supposed to tell him, he loses feeling in his legs. Jack witnesses a supposed miracle as he tests Sarah's legs and she responds.

Also- noteworthy parallel with Boone falling from the cliff/Locke falling from the window in 'The Man from Tallahassee' (and even Locke falling into the pit when Ben shoots him). While one son's father/'father' pushes him off a high ledge and doesn't care, the other 'son' falls from a high ledge, and the 'father' mourns him.
Interesting point - and also that further on, Locke is involved in getting Eko to climb up the same ledge and Locke has seen him fall in his dream. Locke's original fall has followed him to the island.


I kind of think that the run of events after Locke had his dream is one of two possible scenarios, one being good and one being bad. I also think that Locke's choices determined which scenario would occur.

The bad of the situation was that, most obviously, Boone died. Then also Locke didn't get any of the answers that he wanted. And thirdly, the plane falling releases the drugs onto the island, which later causes a problem for Charlie.

In the alternative situation Boone doesn't climb up into the plane, and so therefore he doesn't die, and also the drugs don't become a problem. Also, Locke gets his answers. In the form of the Pearl hatch, which the dream may have originally been trying to point him towards.

I personally think that Locke knew Boone would die, and saw him as a sacrifice. His legs were beginning to become useless again, and he thought the island demanded Boone's life of him. But maybe this was the test, if Locke had stopped Boone climbing up to the plane because it was too dangerous then they would have found the Pearl hatch instead. This is a fascinating line of thinking and I'd never considered it before. I agree that Locke knew somehow that something bad was going to happen to Boone (as he was covered in blood in Locke's dream) yet he had him go up anyway. That's the only way I could see Locke's landmark line of The Sacrifice The Island Demanded.



Oooo, this is really interesting! Especially if we compare Locke/Boone (and later, Eko) with Desmond/Charlie. Both Locke and Desmond have flashes of what will happen to another person, specifically that another person will be terribly hurt if not be killed, and have to decide what to do with that information. Locke is very good at withholding that information for his own benefit, to further his motives. If he tells Boone he has seen Boone covered in blood, Boone might be a tad reluctant to climb up a cliff and into a precariously perched plane, but Locke will not find out what the island seems to be leading him too. Later (in "?"), he does not tell Eko he has seen him fall once he reaches the top of the cliff, but lets him climb anyway... in the same place Boone earlier fell to his death... dude, Locke is way too ready to sacrifice people for his own interests.
This ep has the first of several times Locke has another Lostie do the dangerous dirty work – Kate down the hatch, Eko up the cliff, Kate over the sonic fence. Of course his legs were impaired both here and in ?, but still. For a guy who touts destiny he's more willing to let it have its way with other people than on himself.

About Cooper and the Con:
Cooper’s first words to Locke: Well, this is awkward.
We just heard that from Hibbs when he made himself known in Sawyer’s hotel room. Both went on to con them, and of course the final tie back to Sawyer was made in The Brig.

The cut from Locke disappearing from the caves when Jack needed details on the accident was right to Locke being abandoned in the hospital by Cooper.

When Locke’s mom says “That was the only way you would give it to him. It had to be your idea.” That’s the M.O. of a conman, and perhaps the first clue that Cooper may be the real Sawyer. (I didn't catch on till the pension con in Lockdown, but I'm sure some astute fans hatched the idea from this episode alone. :cool: )

Best quote out of context: “Have you been using that wacky paste stuff the made me see my sister get eaten?”

whispers

Welcome to the LOST Rewind for episode 1x19, "Deus Ex Machina".

*Does Locke see a parallel between his father conning him and himself leading Boone around, doing what they're "supposed" to do, only to lead him to disaster and death?

*Though up to this point it almost seems the Island downloaded a tracker persona into Locke, it's revealed here that Cooper was the one who taught him how to hunt.


I definitely see an Abraham/Isaac connection similar to the one we see in "Catch 22". I think it's interesting to note that right before the flashback where Cooper shows Locke how to hunt, Locke is on the ground and he tells Boone, "Help me up, son."
Then in the flashback, when Locke gets his bird, Cooper tells him, "Good shot, son."

Also, when Locke's mother tells him, "I want to tell you that you're special... very special. You're part of a design. You do realize that don't you? That our meeting... me finding you... this is a sign of things to come. Great things." This reminds me of what the Asian woman told Jack in SIASL about his being a Great Man.

I too found it interesting that Locke used the same language with Boone that his father had used with him to inspire trust and loyalty (i.e. the gentle way he calls him "son"). But I see his attempt to be fatherly with Boone as genuine. It was also evident in Homecoming, when he bolstered Boone's pride by allowing him to help guard the camp from the impending attack by Ethan. This fatherly approach was particularly effective with Boone since he appears to have grown up without a father.
Locke took a similiar approach with Charlie telling him he was pround of him in The Moth, and calling him "son" in House of the Rising Sun.
It's also the same approach that Christian used with Jack in All the Best Cowboys, but of course he used it manipulatively, like Cooper does.

Remember when Boone tried to listen to the radio signal, and it either said, "We're the survivors of flight 815!", or "There were no survivors of flight 815!"?

Is this just a coincidence or was this planned? I know that Bernard heard Boone's transmission in The Other 48 Days and replied the former, but the guy on the radio in Deus Ex Machina didn't sound like Bernard at all. And knowing what we know now, this distinction is extremely important. You just have to wonder...

I think this is an absolutely awesome episode.

One of my favourite =]

The dream of Locke, the death of Boone, (not that it was a good thing, anyway), but it was so touching.

Loved it . x

i wondered what the final words spoken in the radio transmission by the person Boone communicated, it seemed they knew about flight 815....might be meaningless but still

i wondered what the final words spoken in the radio transmission by the person Boone communicated, it seemed they knew about flight 815....might be meaningless but still

Well, that's covered in Season 2's "The Other 48 Days". Bernard was the guy communicating with Boone using a radio/walkie-talkie. When Boone mentions Flight 815, Ana Lucia took the walkie-talkie from Bernard and, uh, I think she broke it, saying that whoever Bernard was talking to (Boone) was one of the Others.

Sad, really. The Tailies and Losties could've met so much quicker if Ana Lucia hadn't been so paranoid.

527 days since we last discussed DEM.

Didn't Locke give his compass to Sayid, yet @ 18:35 he pulls it out of his pocket ?

LOCKE: Normally clothing would completely decompose within 2 years, but this is high quality polyester, could be 2 years, could be 10. (this line always cracks me up - isn't high quality polyester a oxymoron - it also won't decompose (http://planetgreen.discovery.com/fashion-beauty/clothes-live-landfill.html)

Add another gun = 6 Also seems to be in working order, no rust or gunk?


Last fun we're going to have for a while
JACK: Have you ever had a blood transfusion?
SAWYER: What? No.
JACK: Taken pills for malaria?
SAWYER: Nope.
JACK: Have you ever had sex with a prostitute?
SAWYER: What the hell has that got to do with anything?
JACK: Is that a yes?
SAWYER: [sighs] Yes.
JACK: Have you ever contracted a sexually transmitted disease? [Sawyer doesn't respond.] I'm going to take that as another yes. When was the last outbreak?
It struck me that Jack could have answered "YES" to several of these questions.

In these early episodes, Jack and Sawyer come off like brothers who have a sibling rivalry. Sometimes they just need to beat the crap out of each other. They give each other grief and pick and pick but then the love will come through, and neither one would ever be caught admitting it.

The Mousetrap analogy has turned out to be true on so many levels...Locke was set up by the MiB just as he was set up by Cooper. Boone fell into the island's trap as well, although it's unclear whether John was aware of it at the time. Ben was also a victim of a mousetrap of sorts.

Locke had plenty of warning about trusting 'the island'. In this episode he could have taken a hint from his dream ("Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs"), or from the flashback of his conversation with the P.I. ("This probably won't have a happy ending"). I wonder whether his dream was influenced by Jacob in some way.

Cooper's line about Emily dropping "off the face of the planet", as well as the Little Prince references previously, make me wonder whether the island might be located a long ways away.

Locke's sudden leg weakness marked the beginning of his apparent slow fall from the grace of the island. I'm presuming that this was an intentional tactic of the MiB, who may have used the same method to draw Ben into his loophole.

Locke's sudden disappearance after he brought Boone back to the camp transitioned immediately to a shot of John waking up in the hospital bed to find that his father had abandoned him. Did he have any regard for Boone's well being in all of this?

Emily told John that, according to Cooper, "It had to be your idea". I'm assuming this was only about setting up the con, as I doubt he shared Jacob's perspective on free will.

The Mousetrap analogy has turned out to be true on so many levels...Locke was set up by the MiB just as he was set up by Cooper. Boone fell into the island's trap as well, although it's unclear whether John was aware of it at the time. Ben was also a victim of a mousetrap of sorts.

Locke had plenty of warning about trusting 'the island'. In this episode he could have taken a hint from his dream ("Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs"), or from the flashback of his conversation with the P.I. ("This probably won't have a happy ending"). I wonder whether his dream was influenced by Jacob in some way.

Cooper's line about Emily dropping "off the face of the planet", as well as the Little Prince references previously, make me wonder whether the island might be located a long ways away.

Locke's sudden leg weakness marked the beginning of his apparent slow fall from the grace of the island. I'm presuming that this was an intentional tactic of the MiB, who may have used the same method to draw Ben into his loophole.

Locke's sudden disappearance after he brought Boone back to the camp transitioned immediately to a shot of John waking up in the hospital bed to find that his father had abandoned him. Did he have any regard for Boone's well being in all of this?

Emily told John that, according to Cooper, "It had to be your idea". I'm assuming this was only about setting up the con, as I doubt he shared Jacob's perspective on free will.

That's so true! The mousetrap is the game that characterizes John's whole life. Trapped by his own parents, trapped by the island. A tragic hero, indeed.

Locke is an anti-hero rather than a hero, surely. Quite a bit like Elric of Melnibone in fact.