Welcome to the LOST Rewind for episode 1x21, "The Greater Good".

*This episode deals very directly with the post-9/11 world but in a very jarring way: Sayid has to convince Essam to become a suicide bomber. (We could go into how the American government forces Sayid to do this, but that's a whole other can of worms.) As far as Essam goes, the viewers are asked to consider a rationale for killing oneself to kill many others. Whether or not to sympathize with any character is obviously left to the viewer but this has to be especially disturbing as we're forced to question Sayid's character. Yet at the same time viewers assume the bombing will never take place and that for Sayid at least (and maybe for us) this isn't a real ethical question at all, just a sting operation that will only ever go so far. Essam however regrounds it all back in reality, stripping the situation of it's politics and religion as he asks plaintively of Sayid, "You used me to find a woman?" In this case, what truly is "The Greater Good"? Is there a "Greater Good" at all or just a "Good" that each person defines for his or herself, often at the expense of others?

*Examine what Sayid learned from his experience with Essam in the context of how he deals with Shannon and Locke during this episode:
-Sayid tells Shannon, "I know how strong the need can be to find someone to blame."
-He later tells her, as she has a gun aimed directly at Locke, ready to kill him, "If you do it, you can never take it back."
-Kate tells him that he couldn't let Shannon kill Locke, but he responds: "There's always a choice."
- Sayid tells Locke he saved him because "I sense you might be our best hope of surviving here."

What did Sayid learn, especially about himself and what he now considers "The Greater Good"? How has he changed?

*Consider the flashback within the context of Sayid's others: how he became a torturer in 2x14, "One of Them", how he understood what a monster he had become in 1x09, "Solitary", how he continued to deal with it and even run away from it in 3x11, "Enter 77" and finally how all of that led him to be the man he is during this episode.

*While finding time for the ensemble, especially as the show progressed through Season 2 and 3, seemed to be something the writers struggled with, this episode features one of the better ensemble subplots ever: Charlie discovering that Sawyer's southern-twang actually calms Aaron down. It brings Charlie, Sawyer, Hurley and Claire together in a way that doesn't seemed forced and continues Sawyer's progress toward becoming more integrated with the rest of the Losties.

*The agent tells Sayid that Nadia is a lab tech living in Irvine, CA. According to Lostpedia, Irvine neighbors Tustin, where Locke and Hurley's box company is located. Nadia and Locke do cross later in episode 2x17, "Lockdown". But might the lab tech part of this come back later, and how?

*Charlie nicknames the as yet unnamed Aaron "Turnip-Head" since Claire is apparently struggling to name him. This sets up Claire's spontaneously naming him Aaron in "Exodus", giving it some added weight.

I sense that Sayid senses the danger that Locke's becoming. Only at that point in time, Locke's usefulness outweighs his dangerousness.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree.

*The agent tells Sayid that Nadia is a lab tech living in Irvine, CA. According to Lostpedia, Irvine neighbors Tustin, where Locke and Hurley's box company is located. Nadia and Locke do cross later in episode 2x17, "Lockdown". But might the lab tech part of this come back later, and how?

This part really jumped out at me this time. Another thing that popped out for me was one of Locke's lines, something like "I know what it's like to lose family." We see him lose a family in 303. Of course, he also lost the father he'd thought he'd gained.

"The Greater Good" Time Stamp

"The Greater Good" takes place the afternoon and evening of
Tuesday, November 2, 2004.
(This is the afternoon and evening part of "Do No Harm." Geez, that was a busy day.)

It is still Day 42 on the Island.

I sense that Sayid senses the danger that Locke's becoming. Only at that point in time, Locke's usefulness outweighs his dangerousness.

Agree? Disagree?

I felt Sayid judged Locke's percieved actions through a lens honed of his own machinations. He lied to, betrayed, encouraged harmful action in, and ultimately brought about the death of, a man who thought him a brother.

But I haven't Rewound this epi yet - so I may rethink Sayid's culpability yet. He had his reasons I know.
100%
(I'm having dreadful trouble posting here - please forgive any lack of etiquette over quotes)

*While finding time for the ensemble, especially as the show progressed through Season 2 and 3, seemed to be something the writers struggled with, this episode features one of the better ensemble subplots ever:

Doesn’t it just? Hurley does James Brown would be a sell out tour 4 hours after the tickets went on sale – Dude, you got plenty and then some. Also, I’ve been waiting an age to get this off my chest: yes Hurley, there is a British version of Charlie’s missung spider song: Incy Wincy Spider. The supposed-to-be-Brit didn’t even get that right! And we claim to have written it too. Neat foreshadowing of the baptism debacle among the smiles in this here.

*The agent tells Sayid that Nadia is a lab tech living in Irvine, CA. According to Lostpedia, Irvine neighbors Tustin, where Locke and Hurley's box company is located. Nadia and Locke do cross later in episode 2x17, "Lockdown". But might the lab tech part of this come back later, and how?

Hmmmm. Along lines technical – it was the C-4 caught my ear.

*Whether or not to sympathize with any character is obviously left to the viewer

This viewer sympathises with Essam; painfully struggling with his interpretation of Islam’s teachings and the conflicting requirements of him from his cell mates. What a terrible place to be, bereft of a beloved wife, ‘collateral damage’ in a war fought for the Greater Good and expected to wreak a counter strike on more innocents.

*Sayid tells Shannon, "I know how strong the need can be to find someone to blame."

Holy cow this writing’s spooky! Sayid may let himself – and us – down horribly in his flashback, so nearly doing the right thing in standing up to his would-be handlers, but then folding like we’ve seen him do before (promised himself he’d never torture again – but did Sawyer and Henry), but on this he honours his own words; but later, in taking no action against Ana.

*What did Sayid learn, especially about himself and what he now considers "The Greater Good"? How has he changed?

I don’t know that he has changed. Once, he tortured his superior, at the request of an enemy power, in an act of personal vengeance – in this FB, he betrays a friend in the pursuit of an old flame (that’s not meant to sound pejorative – I’m just not very word smart today) …I’ll wait and see if he builds on the restraint he showed toward Ana, but the scales seem tilted against him: helped Nadia escape – but only after supporting the regime that was hurting her, beat himself up over Sawyer – but only after breaking his word, broke Henry up pretty bad too…


…confessed, eventually, to his former victim in Paris, accepting her mercy – but he’d poured boiling oil over her arms…. She’s scared for life; I dunno yet what Sayid’s mean for him.


*Kate tells him that he couldn't let Shannon kill Locke, but he responds: "There's always a choice."


His line: “There’s always a choice” might play as a confessional too – but then he has a heap to confess. I think these words will be the judge of his future actions.

~ as nobody else has posted (I waited :) I'll give you my other thoughts now ~

Sayid knows what heroin is… from the taste - where’d he learn that?

Why’d John use the militaristic term ‘clicks’ in place of kilometres? He’s American, and would use miles wouldn’t he? Although in addressing an Iraqis soldier, I wouldn’t know if meters or miles would be correct. Iraq was part of the British Empire for a while but… didn’t I hear Charlie use it once? - maybe it’s entered general usage. Maybe. (last time I’ll mention this I promise :lipsseal: )

John’s “I’ll tell you something you don’t know” turning-the-tables moment on the astute Sayid was deft; beautifully executed (by TOQ too), right up to the point at which he was threatened with the gun he’d voluntarily given up. :D Naveen played that scene nicely too.

Call me mad but; could Sayid have met Cooper? (of course he could - this is LOST! But come with me a while): Sayid studied English with Essam at Cairo University, and both visited the beach at Sharm el-Sheikh – its famed for its diving. Coop displays a photo of a diver in his fortress.

A few name meanings: Essam – Safeguard, Zahraa – White, radiant.

Oh Shannon… so tender over your brother’s body (who looked pretty even in death) but what a little madam toward Sayid when you didn’t get your own way! lol Had to admire yer stroppy ‘fine-I’ll-do-it-myself-then’ attitude. Lifting that key from the neck of the camp leader, while he lay drugged and defenceless… :eek2: ROFLMAO Lady you got some style.

Straight to the naughty step for you miss – and Jack can keep you company; he was well out of order ignoring your request for reassurance that what you were doing was just. He should have stopped you! But he was ready to let you do what it was he wanted. What a coward, hiding behind a woman’s skirts. And he did nothing to see if John were okay after the gun discharged. So much for his supposed caring nature. He’s a dutiful doctor when it suits him.

He might get off on appeal though for making me laugh with his “okay” acquiescence to unconsciousness as Kate told him what she’d done and the drugs kicked in.
Hard to watch Jack loosing the plot though; staggering round the jungle looking in a poorer state than Boone did when he died. I have to say Kate made the right call here; Jack saved from himself again by a woman. Kate fixed him good.

I was pulled up short this time through though, in a way only a Rewind could: Walt at Boone’s funeral, so soon after loosing his mom, looking for some reassurance or explanation, slipping his hand into his father’s - that hand visits death upon two women later.

The hints were there even then “I’ll decide what’s best for my boy” - Kate saw it. She looked scared.

and for The Sewing Kit: duplicitous red flowers in the park where Sayid played football, in the blouse the Spook sported, on a satchel beside Jack’s head when Kate doped him; you’ve been doped you dope! - and purple and lilac floors on a building plan in Sydney.

*Sayid tells Shannon, "I know how strong the need can be to find someone to blame."

Liplocked: Holy cow this writing’s spooky! Sayid may let himself – and us – down horribly in his flashback, so nearly doing the right thing in standing up to his would-be handlers, but then folding like we’ve seen him do before (promised himself he’d never torture again – but did Sawyer and Henry), but on this he honours his own words; but later, in taking no action against Ana.

Nice point.

I sense that Sayid senses the danger that Locke's becoming. Only at that point in time, Locke's usefulness outweighs his dangerousness.
Sayid can smell that sort of thing a mile away. I wonder why Locke told Sayid that he had sabotaged his earlier attempt to triangulate the signal?

How disgusting is it for Locke to show up at the funeral still wearing the t-shirt covered in Boone’s blood? Later when he’s washing out the T-shirt Walt watches him, rather morbidly fascinated.

Both Jack and Claire are separately being urged to get some sleep for the sake of their own health, and both have the Shephard stubbornness and refuse for a long time.

CIA’s ultimatum to Sayid – get his friend to go through with the suicide bombing (and reveal the source of the explosives) or they would arrest Nadia – was the same sort of ultimatum Juliet used on Kate as she sent Kate to try to get Jack to perform the surgery, or they'd kill Sawyer. Use persons B and C to get to A.

I sense that Sayid senses the danger that Locke's becoming. Only at that point in time, Locke's usefulness outweighs his dangerousness.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree. Sayid feels he can handle Locke at this point. You could see the wheels turning in Sayid's head as Locke explains that the signal they were receiving may not be the best one to go after.


Doesn’t it just? Hurley does James Brown would be a sell out tour 4 hours after the tickets went on sale – Dude, you got plenty and then some. Also, I’ve been waiting an age to get this off my chest: yes Hurley, there is a British version of Charlie’s missung spider song: Incy Wincy Spider. The supposed-to-be-Brit didn’t even get that right! And we claim to have written it too. Neat foreshadowing of the baptism debacle among the smiles in this here.

I've read a different version as well. It crossed my mind. Perhaps a bit of subconscious forshadowing on Charlies' part? He does after all drown.


Why’d John use the militaristic term ‘clicks’ in place of kilometres? He’s American, and would use miles wouldn’t he? Although in addressing an Iraqis soldier, I wouldn’t know if meters or miles would be correct. Iraq was part of the British Empire for a while but… didn’t I hear Charlie use it once? - maybe it’s entered general usage. Maybe. (last time I’ll mention this I promise :lipsseal: )

Or perhaps Locke is a sociopath and knows adapation is key to winning people over. Little words like that can build confidence in people...a sense of familarity. Good thing Sayid knows better.



Both Jack and Claire are separately being urged to get some sleep for the sake of their own health, and both have the Shephard stubbornness and refuse for a long time.


Caught that as well. Nice touch, TPTB!

This was a very multi-layered epi and I absolutely love Lost because it "goes there" while entertaining. Everyone played their part very well. Even Shannon, god bless her flaky self!
I guess I didn't catch that that was Boone's blood on Lockes shirt. Didn't he have the same sort of mess on his shirt back in the epi where he happens upon Smoky/Polor Bear/Security Thingy???

And in case this hasn't been mentioned: Naveen Andrews is extremely Handsome!:kiss:


-L

"clicks" is interesting, Sawyer also uses it "The Long Con". Yes, he reads alot but it seems to come to his tongue so easily and in an emergency situation. (Yes, it is TLC.)
When Sun is in the tent, after the attack and Jack comes, Sawyer tells Jack where he found her.

"clicks" is interesting, Sawyer also uses it "The Long Con". Yes, he reads alot but it seems to come to his tongue so easily and in an emergency situation. (Yes, it is TLC.)
Went Sun is in the tent after the attack and Jack comes. Sawyer tells Jack where he found her.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't US military use "clicks" as shorthand for kilometers too, and use kilometers sometimes in military operations? I mean, if you're operating in a foreign country that uses km, it's good to be familiar with how far those roadsigns mean before you get to Baghdad/Kosovo/Mogadishu.

Locke with all his military fantasy games would be sure to learn the jargon, so it's not surprising at all. Sawyer, now that's a mystery.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't US military use "clicks" as shorthand for kilometers too, and use kilometers sometimes in military operations? I mean, if you're operating in a foreign country that uses km, it's good to be familiar with how far those roadsigns mean before you get to Baghdad/Kosovo/Mogadishu.

Locke with all his military fantasy games would be sure to learn the jargon, so it's not surprising at all. Sawyer, now that's a mystery.Not surprised at Locke's using it, he has other military things in his background, in his apartment, that have never been explained. Sawyer's use of "clicks" is the one that has me interested.

Mikhail and Pickett also used the term "click" but that's to be expected.

How disgusting is it for Locke to show up at the funeral still wearing the t-shirt covered in Boone’s blood?

"Dude... You've got some... Boone... on you!" /Hurley

He literally waved a red flag in front of Jack. In Locke's defense, I think he was so messed up by what had happened that he didn't even notice.

Both Jack and Claire are separately being urged to get some sleep for the sake of their own health, and both have the Shephard stubbornness and refuse for a long time.

We can add a third Shephard who refuses to sleep in this episode: Aaron (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-382-366.html). :biggrin:

Sawyer, like me, watched a lot of TV when he was little. If I was trying to impress Sayid, I'd used some learned-it-from-JAG military jargon too.


What did Sayid learn, especially about himself and what he now considers "The Greater Good"? How has he changed?

Sayid is a great second in command to Jack (he helps him calm down here the same way he does before the trek to the radio tower) precisely because he does see the greater good as a priority. Most of the time. I'm not sure he's changed that much, just reacts according to the choices he's given.

*The agent tells Sayid that Nadia is a lab tech living in Irvine, CA. According to Lostpedia, Irvine neighbors Tustin, where Locke and Hurley's box company is located. Nadia and Locke do cross later in episode 2x17, "Lockdown". But might the lab tech part of this come back later, and how?

Widmore Laboratories. If she's still working there, she might be a valuable source of info for Sayid in a flashforward.

Interesting to notice that in the opening scene of the flashback, Sayid's in Heathrow airport. Nadia hasn't been in the UK for a while (where we see her in... 1998 was it?) if she's now settled with a job and a life in SoCal. So if he's there looking for her, Sayid's following a rather cold trail.

I've read a different version as well. It crossed my mind. Perhaps a bit of subconscious forshadowing on Charlies' part? He does after all drown.



I thought the same thing. Charlie was singing "drowned the spider out." Hmmm...

Assim is a tree cutter like Horace.

@ 13:22 you will see the same box on the coffee table, that shows up in the Swan Hatch in season 2 while they are watching the Orientation Video.

Perhaps it was Fate or are we being shown every thing is a set up.

These quick turns of character, like the one Shannon makes, asking Sayid to do something about Locke killing her brother - I wonder if we are actually seeing a manifestation instead of the character we know.

Kate drugged Jack by crushing up sleeping pills and putting them in juice.

Sayid is the one who changed his flight to burry Assim.

Locke is such a liar . Love the scene towards the end Sayid and Locke by candle light and Sayid says No more lies.

@ 13:22 you will see the same box on the coffee table, that shows up in the Swan Hatch in season 2 while they are watching the Orientation Video...Perhaps it was Fate or are we being shown everything is a set up.

I also noticed that both the box on the coffee table and a lamp on the kitchen counter in the same scene were octagon-shaped. Maybe we should be looking for parallels between the DHARMA initiative and the terrorist cell. This reminds me of Locke's flashback to the pot-growing commune in Further Instructions, which I feel clearly foreshadowed his involvement with the Others. Your question of fate vs. set-up is a good one. Maybe both the Others and the DI have been carefully set up by the MiB as a means to prove his point to Jacob (or to someone who both he and Jacob will be reporting to)..."They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt".

If this is the case, several parallels can be drawn. Assim, in his terrorist cell, found himself in the same position as Locke did, in his relationship with the Others/the island. Each were duped into doing things they normally wouldn't have done because they believed that it was in service of 'the greater good'. The same thing Sayid told the C.I.A. agent about Assim could have been said about John..."He's in over his head. He doesn't even know why he's doing it". By preventing Shannon from shooting Locke, Sayid did what he was unable to do with Assim, protecting him from the consequences of his choices. Ironically, however, by allowing John to continue his deceptions, Sayid was playing into the hand of the MiB. The decision to follow one's conscience rather than an abstract concept such as 'the greater good' is, ultimately, non-negotiable.

Boone, IMO, was also 'collateral damage' in the set-up of the MiB's loophole, as was Shannon. Walt, on the other hand, may have managed to extricate himself from the loop. I think that Walt was originally intended to be a part of MiB's plan (remember the octagon-shaped rooms at his house?). Once he realized that John was being manipulated, however, his entire focus shifted. He went from setting the raft on fire so that he could stay on the island to insisting that they leave the island, and warning John not to open the hatch. When did this shift in perspective occur? I believe his eyes were opened when he saw Locke washing Boone's blood from his shirt in the caves. No words were spoken between the two, but if you go back and re-watch the scene, the look in Walt's eyes tells it all.


Assim is a tree cutter like Horace.Another reference to the DI, IMO. DHARMA = technology = tree cutters. Others = nature = farmers. Looks like Horace was probably a set-up as well.


The writing on the curb near the edge of the pier when Sayid was talking to the C.I.A. agents was telling, 'Caution. Fall exposure. Injury may result'. You listening, Boone?

Charlie's reassurance to Claire when he was encouraging her to take a nap now has the feeling of a major foreshadowing, given her prolonged 'nap' and her separation from Aaron during season five. And Sun's comment about the nurse taking the baby makes me a little nervous for Charlie Hume as well...
CHARLIE: You need rest, Claire. Sun, tell her.

SUN: In a hospital they would have you sleep. The nurses would take your baby.

CLAIRE: Yeah, but I'm not in a hospital.

CHARLIE: Well, al the more reason to take extra care, Claire. Look, it's OK, I can take care of turnip-head for a while.

CLAIRE: Turnip-head?

CHARLIE: It's just what I'm calling him until you give him a name, because his head...it's like a turnip.

CLAIRE: What if he needs something, OK?

CHARLIE: You'll be there for him, after you sleep.

CLAIRE: No, OK?...No.

CHARLIE: Claire, no one is going to take this baby away from you. No one.

CLAIRE: You don't know that, OK, you can't say that.

CHARLIE: I won't let anything happen.At this point I'm believing Charlie. I thing Claire will be coming back, and I'm guessing she will eventually be reunited with Aaron.

I sense that Sayid senses the danger that Locke's becoming. Only at that point in time, Locke's usefulness outweighs his dangerousness.

Agree? Disagree?


Nice point.

Sayid can smell that sort of thing a mile away. I wonder why Locke told Sayid that he had sabotaged his earlier attempt to triangulate the signal?

How disgusting is it for Locke to show up at the funeral still wearing the t-shirt covered in Boone’s blood? Later when he’s washing out the T-shirt Walt watches him, rather morbidly fascinated.




Locke has done alot of things that are making me believe that he was compromised by MIB much further back than we realize. If anyone would be able to sense something 'off' it would indeed be Sayid. Remember too that Kate senses that he is, with the "Did they brainwash you?!" line. It only gets compounded when she begins to communicate with Miles (another one that would be able to sense it)...perhaps that was the real reason for his banishing her. Note too...Kate and Sayid were specifically told that they were allowed to leave the island, by Ben himself. He dosen't mention anyone else, just those two.

I also noticed that both the box on the coffee table and a lamp on the kitchen counter in the same scene were octagon-shaped. Maybe we should be looking for parallels between the DHARMA initiative and the terrorist cell.


Right! It's also shown in WKD on the shelf, as they walk past in Diane/Wayne's house right before he blows up. Before anyone says..."it's just an overused prop"...keep in mind that TPTB have said that "EVERY prop is fully intentional." ;)

Oh, you quoted Save the Humans, how she is missed.

Oh, you quoted Save the Humans, how she is missed.


:(:yes: A very wise woman indeed!

I agree, LBK. Rewatched this one, and up to a point, you feel like Locke's playing Sayid perfectly well. He discloses something potentially dangerous to Sayid in an effort to win his trust, after his earlier attempt by handing over the gun backfires: 'that makes you adaptable.' Sayid sees through that little bit of trickery easily enough, so Locke amps it up a bit by confessing to that early sabotage. Shades of MiB?

Several other things struck me: Sayid's one weakness or achilles heel really seems to revolve around women, doesn't it? He manipulates Assim to the point of suicide (well, he urges him on at least) to find Nadia. Assim's expression really struck me, when he realizes what's happening.

Shannon's entire demeanor during Locke's 'apology.' Girl doesn't give anything away, she's rather good at concealing her feelings.

The animosity between Jack and Locke: the look Locke gives him after being grazed by the bullet: the seeds are sown, people!

Jack's stubborness: he's nearly fainted, yet is unwilling to listen to anyone or back down, Sayid tries, Kate tries, till Sun soothingly puts a hand on his arm and tells him to rest. Liked that touch: seemed natural and real after their cooperation during DNH. They're closer and I think Jack respects Sun's capabilities by then.

Sayid's master interrogatory skills: this was the best bit, where Sayid demanded Locke stop lying and take him to the hatch. Loved it!