Once upon a time, there were three great kings, named Hanso, Widmore, and Paik. King Hanso saw that there were great problems in the world, and he called upon the others, saying, "I wish to build The Great Dharma, to solve the world's troubles. If you will help, I will fill your treasuries with gold." King Hanso knew of a fabulous island, discovered by his ancestors, and passed down as a family treasure. It was a place of great power, able to hide itself, and seemingly able to create gifts for the people it favored.

In fact, King Hanso did not understand his island, for it was not a wishing box to create gifts. It instead was able to think and to feel, and it used its abilities to create things, and even images of people that appeared alive, in order to get the people to hear and commune with it. But the people had never seen a living island, and did not recognize its call. King Hanso felt that there could be no greater place for the Great Dharma to save the world than the wonderful island, but the other kings must never learn its secrets.

And so the best craftsmen of the other kings set to work, encouraged by Hanso's gold. King Paik's craftsmen were skilled at creating heavy industries, and they created great and wonderful machines for the Wizards of the Great Dharma. King Widmore's craftsmen were skilled in the arts of construction, using great magical engines, like "The Crane," "The Cement Mixer," and "The Bulldozer." King Widmore sent his engines and armies of his craftsmen to the island, dressed in their traditional garments of denim and flannel and bright yellow hard hats. And among them were many spies to learn the island's secrets. But King Paik's craftsmen built their machines in their own kingdom, only to have them transported by Widmore's armies. So King Paik had far fewer opportunities to send spies to the wonderful island.

But in time, both kings learned of the island's great powers, and they lusted after the great wealth it might someday create. While Hanso thought only of solving great problems and ills, the others each plotted to sieze the island for themselves. Because Widmore had so many more spies, he learned of the island's secret location. But King Paik did not, and he burned with anger.

Now, Hanso meant well, but in many ways, he was a foolish king. He ignored the people already living on the island, and had built a great fortress, to shut them out. But Widmore's spies made alliances with them, cultivating the friendship of the mysterious Sir Richard, who lived among them. And the Great Dharma came to the island and flourished for a season. But try as they might, they could not solve the problems they pursued.

But one day, came to the island The Golden Child, the one who could hear the island's call. The one who was to become Sir Ben, the Black Knight. And young Ben was sad and lonely, ignored by his father, and longing for a mother he never knew. In his lonelines, his anguished thoughts of his mother were heard by the island, for while the island could hear thoughts but poorly, it could sharply hear deep feelings.

And the island called out to young Ben, creating a form like his mother, and it caused it to move, and drew Ben out from his home. In his haste to see his mother, he nearly crossed the deadly moat that surrounded his fortress home. This alarmed the island, who wished to commune with him in the fullness of time, so it spoke to him, telling him he must not cross. Young Ben, thinking he was abandoned by his mother, was heartbroken.
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In time, young Ben learned to cross the deadly moat in safety, and he left the fortress in search of his mother. In the surrounding forest, he found Sir Richard the Mysterious, and asked to join his people. Sir Richard was surprised, as his people and Ben's were sworn enemies. He was even more surprised to learn that his island had spoken to young Ben. Could this child someday lead them in driving King Hanso's invaders from the island? If so, it was not yet time, and Sir Richard told Ben to return home, and wait. If he truly wanted to join Sir Richard, his time would someday come.

On a dark day, the Wizards of Dharma, wishing to save the world, created instead the Terrible Incident, that threatened instead to destroy it. A great magical spell, called the Spell of the Failsafe, could wash away the Terrible Incident, but anyone who cast the spell would be cursed forever, and none could be found who would dare. There was a lesser spell, the Spell of the Button, that could cause the Terrible Incident to sleep for a short while, but it must be cast again and again forever, unless one could be found to cast the greater spell.

The Wizards of Dharma built a dwelling in the Cavern of the Swan; the place where people would live and cast the spells. They would be shut in alone, as hermits, and told there was great danger in leaving. Day and night, they would cast the Button Spell, but the Wizards' hope was that someone would either tire of it or become alarmed at the effects of not casting the Button Spell, and finally cast the cursed Spell of the Failsafe.

Now, the Failsafe curse was a truly remarkable one. Many know how the great magician Merlin lived his life backwards, beginning life as an old man, and becoming gradually younger. The man cursed by the failsafe would neither live his life from young to old nor old to young, but in a broken, mixed-up order, and he would live them over and over again. Usually, he would only remember events from the younger parts of his life, but occasionally there would be glimpses of older life events. These he would think were glimpses of the future, but actually they were just memories of what he had already done. But some of these events could be changed, especially if he remembered them.

The Wizards of Dharma learned that there were major events that could never be changed, and that the universe would counteract all such attempts. But smaller events could be changed, and this caused them great alarm, for if a man were found to cast the accursed Failsafe Spell and later regret doing so, he might undo this choice when he relived some of his life's events. This meant that once an unfortuate soul was found to cast the Failsafe Spell, he must be guided carefully, to make sure that his choices were never undone. Many were sent to the Cavern of the Swan, and would not be tricked into casting the spell. But when Sir Desmond the Sad was guided to the island, they at last achieved their goal.

But during the search for the caster of the spell, young Ben grew to become Sir Ben the Black Knight, and he brought much calamity upon his people. For in allying himself with Sir Richard the Mysterious, he plotted all their destruction. For you will recall that Sir Richard had befriended King Widmore, who supplied horrible poisons and other weapons that were used to kill most of the people that King Hanso had brought to the island. And through Sirs Ben and Richard, King Widmore at last controlled the island. And still, King Paik burned with envy.

Yet all kings have their spies, and Hanso learned of the Golden-Child-become-man who actually spoke with the island. "Surely," he thought, "if evil Widmore can find a Golden Child among my people on the island, I can find many and greater ones around the world. I am guiding people to the island to find a caster of the Failsafe Spell, I shall also guide many gifted people to the island who can speak to it. Surely they will undermine the one who serves Widmore."

To be certain that they undermined Sir Ben, he intended send a Guide to the island, one named Lady Libby. But once there she would be killed by accident, and her mission went unfulfilled.

And a great search began for people who might speak to the island, and they were all guided to one place, where they might be lured into a journey that would lead to the island. The journey was to be aboard a great metal bird that flies across the oceans. It would be diverted from its intended path and brought to the island. To prevent others from searching for them, it would be claimed that the bird had sunk deep beneath the ocean, where none could detect the deception. Unfortunately, Sir Desmond's delay in spell-casting released great destructive power, and the metal bird was destroyed before it could safely land. Surprisingly, and perhaps because of some virtue in the great power that was released, many of those on the great bird lived.

Many were the Guides who enticed people onto the magical bird, and clever and varied were the lures they used. Oft used was the supplying of a ticket for them, guaranteeing their inclusion on the Special Flight.

The most blatant use of the ticket-lure involved a Guide who supplied a ticket to Lady Claire, who carried within her the seed of another Golden Child. When the Guide could not convince her to raise the child herself, he supplied the special ticket, insisting that only the one flight was acceptable. This ensured both that Lady Claire would raise the child herself, and that it would come to the island. Surpisingly, that same Guide insisted to Friar Eko that he need not tarry in conducting a holy investigation at home. The full details of Friar Eko's ticket are not known, but the Guide did not want Eko to extend his work, and miss the Special Flight. Friar Eko was to hear the island very clearly. It spoke to him in dreams and visions, and created for him images of his dead brother to whom he spoke, and it created for him a smaller metal bird, like one in which his brother had flown. While he was very gifted, he was tormented in his heart, and ultimately, the island rejected him.

Sir John of the Knives was banished from an expedition and given his ticket by the one who banished him. On the island he was healed by it miraculously and heard the island in dreams and visions. He learned much about faith in the island from Friar Eko, and became the main searcher for the island's truths, after Eko's demise.

Young Walt was brought to the island through more advanced treachery. His father was given tickets to bring him "home" on the Special Flight, but before this could be done, a subtle and indetectable murder of his mother was necessary. But young Walt was specially gifted. Even far from the island, it was able to create for him a rare bird through his thoughts. His stepfather alluded to many other mysterious things that would happen when he was near. Some say that the island heard Walt even far away. Others say that the intelligence that is the island is really something much larger, possibly the entire world, and the physical island is just a place of power where even the less-gifted can hear it. In any case, Walt did not need to be on the island to be heard by it, for its influence extends far from its shores.
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Others of smaller skill also had tickets selected for them. Particularly, Criminal Kate and Sir Sawyer the Sarcastic, for whom the island created special gun-case that truly existed elsewhere, but which appeared magically where they chose to look, though it could not really have been there. Also, it created the Black Horse, a memory from Kate's past. The island may yet have its plans for them...

Most notably, Sir Jack the Whiner was _not_ selected or guided onto the Special Flight. He rode the metal bird on a ticket he purchased for himself. Nonetheless, his emotions were great, and the island did attempt to communicate through an apparition of his father. Although Sir Jack greatly desired communion with his father, his beliefs prevented him from truly listening to the island, and he could not converse with the image.

The island, which some call by the name of Jacob, greatly favored those who would listen. But those who would not listen were not on the list of the favored.

Now, both of the evil kings Paik and Widmore had lovely daughters, and both became part of this story, as beautiful princesses are likely to do. Princess Sun, daughter of Paik, was brought to the island by accident, and by Paik's own skulduggery. It was through Paik's spies that he learned of the Special Flight, and he charged his son-in-law to carry a special timepiece on that journey that could be located from far away, allowing the island to be located. His daughter, who was intended to accompany him, was expected to abandon him before the flight, forcing him to go alone. But at the last moment, princess Sun chose to stay with her husband, and was also brought to the island. Ironically, before the timepiece could be located by Paik, it was carried off the island by one of the few people ever allowed to leave. And so King Paik became even more desperate to find the island, to recover his daughter.

But Paik received an unlikely ally in Princess Penelope, daughter of his rival, King Widmore. In her search for her love, Sir Desmond, some of her father's subjects disclosed to her details of the special island that he controlled. They disclosed that Sir Desmond might be there. They also disclosed that King Paik's craftsmen had once been involved with this island. Learning of its magnetic virtues she paid some of her subjects to search for this magnetism. Finding it, she innocently went to Paik's counselors, inquiring about the island. Asking for their help in locating Sir Desmond, she supplied a photograph, and the location information she had discovered.

And in this way, Princess Penelope guided a great ocean vessel belonging to her father's enemy at last near to the island he longed to posess. The people brought in on the Special Flight by King Hanso ironically provided the final guidance. And now the battle is set, between the people of the king that owned the island in the past, those of the king that owns it in the present, and those of the king who seeks to own it in the future.

The Battle of the Giants is set to begin...

and Courtly Love lessons for Jack - a knave's name appropriatly enough - the ignoble lord of Much Whining in the Mire could do with learing humility and courtesy for a start.

Lovely stuff wesb.

and Courtly Love lessons for Jack - a knave's name appropriatly enough - the ignoble lord of Much Whining in the Mire could do with learing humility and courtesy for a start.

Lovely stuff wesb.

Well, thanks.I wasn't sure whether framing my theory in this format was whimsical, bold, or just plain crazy, but I was trying to express it in a way that was more entertaining than Just Another Big Theory, that's too lengthy to read. Hopefully it won't come across as just a pointless bunch of verbosity that's too lengthy to read.

My view on this story is that Our Heroes are just pawns in a much larger game that's about to start unfolding when the Freighter People get to the island. I think that the flashbacks have been loaded with TONS of clues regarding this big conflict, and I'd tried to collect them and guess what's in the missing spaces to create a big picture. I did a lot of guessing of course, but in the end, there is one big, coherent picture. I hope it comes across clearly.

It came across clearly indeed! Congrats for a well-reasoned, coherent and entertaining theory.

Your thoughts about the possible motivations of, and relationships between, Paik-Widmore-Hanso are brilliant, and totally consistent with what we know. It sure would make a lot of sense of those three are in a power struggle, and the show is building towards a climax involving the ambitions of those three men, each of whom does not understand what they may unleash by trying to be the first to grab the island's powers.

I believe pretty strongly that the island is indeed sentient (or that some "entity" is living within the island), but in a somewhat primitive way. Whether the living presence of the island is a relic from ancient, possibly Biblical times (I'm still not convinced we're not dealing with a fallen Eden of some sort), or is an alien entity, I don't know, but I think that it has been gaining intelligence and strength through it's interactions with DHARMA, and it's still an open question as to what "judgment" it will render about the human race.

There's lot's to ponder in your posts -- for instance, I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to Jin being supposed to board the plane alone, and maybe also about the watch being a tracking device. But let me ask one question: what is it that makes Hanso and Widmore keep a "hands-off" approach to the island, given that under your theory they both appear to know how to get there and have some sort of presence there?

Great, great theory. Kudos.

wesb: Just...awesome! Really, really well done! Very Solaris...

But let me ask one question: what is it that makes Hanso and Widmore keep a "hands-off" approach to the island, given that under your theory they both appear to know how to get there and have some sort of presence there?


Widmore may _appear_ to be "hands-off," but only because we don't know what Ben's Gang is there for. But Widmore is the financial support that has been bringing everyone to the island, from Juliet to Cooper. He's providing material and technical support (these folks haven't been living all these years on ancient Dharma leftovers -- they're well supplied...) When asked what they're dong there, Ben says they're doing work, but he gave no details. I'm betting that at least some of that work is guided by Widmore. As it may be hard to get people to move permanently to a faraway and dangerous island, I'm sure he's really financing a group of "idealists," who also have some freedom to pursue research of their own. But to someone like Widmore, that would be "overhead" expenses, required to support his main "research," which is learning how to exploit the island.

Hanso's "hands are off," because he was essentially thrown off the island in the purge. The crash of Flight 815 was to be his beachhead (literally!) in attempting to regain the island, and Our Heroes are unwitting pawns in the game. Note that from what we know from TLE, it may not be "King Hanso," but "the evil usurper Mittelwerk" that's behind the kidnapping of flight 815, but that's too much detail for the preliminary outline I described above. The full theory is much richer in detail, which I can explain as we go on, or which others can have the fun of discovering for themselves if they start going through the story with this theory in mind.

But the fact is, the Others follow Ben because he's the only one who can talk to the island -- it's a rare and unusual skill. Now suddenly, a planeload of people arrive that's _packed_ with people with varying levels of the same skills. It's not a coincidence but a plan to undermine Widmore's authority on the island by bringing in outsiders who the Others may wish to follow instead. That's part of Hanso (or Mittelwerk's) plan to get his island back.

I believe that there were some "Guides" sent, who would be skilled in manipulating some of Our Heroes to properly throw monkey wrenches into Widmore's operation. I think Libby was one of those guides, though she got killed unexpectedly. Are other "Guides" in the group also? (Libby _did_ say she was a clinical psychologist. If that's true, it fits well here.)
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I believe pretty strongly that the island is indeed sentient (or that some "entity" is living within the island), but in a somewhat primitive way. Whether the living presence of the island is a relic from ancient, possibly Biblical times (I'm still not convinced we're not dealing with a fallen Eden of some sort), or is an alien entity, I don't know, but I think that it has been gaining intelligence and strength through it's interactions with DHARMA, and it's still an open question as to what "judgment" it will render about the human race.


The interesting thing is, they could bring this story to its conclusion without ever fully telling us exactly what the island "is." If they leave it as a mysterious intelligence that's ancient, wise, and very sad, it would actually make it "appear" larger in our minds than if they gave all the details -- even if their secret "story bible" has all those details in it. It would probably create a more satisfying impression in our memories of the story if we never knew.

One thing seems intriguing... its influence may well extend far beyond the shores of the island itself. Isaac the faith healer who offered to pay Rose back the money he'd gotten from Bernard said that there were places of power on the earth and that he couldn't heal Rose there at Ayer's Rock, but that there may be other places where it's possible. The "fake psychic" Malkin's daughter met Eko at the airport and told him that she knew he wasn't a priest and that she'd seen his brother Yemi while she was dead. It would appear that she was having Eko & Locke-like visions, but far from the island. This might put her in the same skill-category as Walt. The flashbacks have a number of other suggestions of what's possibly the island's remote influence.

And I put the qoutes around "fake psychic" because it's possible that Malkin called himself a fraud particularly to keep Eko from hanging around, so he'd be sure to get on that plane. As I see it, any real fake-psychic (is that a contradiction in terms?) would be thrilled at the possibility of the Catholic Church declaring a resurrection-type-miracle in his family. It would be his ticket to millionaireville. But he completely walked away from it. If his daughter has such a "connection" to the island, it's possible that Malkin does, too, and that's what he's been exploiting to make money as a psychic. But his agenda at that moment was not to promote himself but to make sure Eko got on his way.

Nice story wesb! It seems to me like a very likely synopsis of the back story for LOST, assembled in a fun way.

I'm not convinced yet that the island is sentient, and as you say, TPTB may not even bother to answer that question as it isn't critical to the story to do so. I do think, as you alluded to in mentioning Isaac of Uluru's comment to Rose, that the island is a focal point for energy of some sort. Perhaps a place where the collective consciousness of humanity is accessible to those sensitive enough to detect it (like so many of the Lostaways). Just a different angle on the same thing you're talking about, I think.

Nice work!

I'm not convinced yet that the island is sentient, and as you say, TPTB may not even bother to answer that question as it isn't critical to the story to do so. I do think, as you alluded to in mentioning Isaac of Uluru's comment to Rose, that the island is a focal point for energy of some sort. Perhaps a place where the collective consciousness of humanity is accessible to those sensitive enough to detect it (like so many of the Lostaways). Just a different angle on the same thing you're talking about, I think.


You're right that the island need not be sentient for the basic theory to work. And I do suspect that the writers will not dump unnesessary details on us in giving the solution, seeing that they've gotta fit in so many necessary ones. I'm finding that there are now enough pieces of the puzzle on the table that if we carefully infer how the picture may extend beyond the pieces, we can suddenly start connecting them into at least part of a coherent picture. If the writers are as smart as we think they are, there's probably more than one way to do it, and they're leading us carefully down the wrong path. That's part of the hunt, and I love it...

I've found, in solving mystery stories, that there tends to be both what I call "the puzzle," which usually includes the physical details and actions that have led up to the "impossible" situation, and there are "story details," usually character-related, that involve hidden motivations and revelations not necessarily connected to the main puzzle, but which are still interesting to learn. The "puzzle" part can sometimes be figured out ahead of time, if we're given fair clues. But the "story details" can be anything the writer wants them to be, and need not be revealed until the very end of the story. So they will tend to be a surprise, at least if the writer is original.

In this case, the exact nature of the island, sentient or not, may well fall into the bucket of story details, and the writers can make it whatever they want it to be. As I find it convenient to have the island creating and controlling the apparitions which appear to act with intelligence, my whole theory becomes simpler when I put the intelligence in the island, but there are other ways of dealing with that issue. Since we don't know what devices the writers will be needing in future seasons, we can't be sure what path they'll want to take.

But in order to make a coherent story, I had to infer some story details to fill in some spaces. I just happened to pick the ones most convenient to me today. There's still lots of "wiggle room" in those spaces. Thanks for your thoughts.

BTW, as far as "collective consciousness" goes... Check out a phrase called "The Gaia Hypothesis," which is a somewhat new-agey concept that looks at the entire planet as a single living organism. It might kinda connect both what you're thinking and what I'm thinking. If they decided to write it into the story they may have decided to make not just the island but the whole planet as a story "character".

If so, let's hope they don't kill that one off...

Very creative, entertaining AND plausible theory! I enjoyed it much and I have a gut feeling you have hit the nail on the head. Nice work!

Well, thanks.I wasn't sure whether framing my theory in this format was whimsical, bold, or just plain crazy, but I was trying to express it in a way that was more entertaining than Just Another Big Theory, that's too lengthy to read. Hopefully it won't come across as just a pointless bunch of verbosity that's too lengthy to read.


Fabulous :clapping:

That's the most fun I've had on the 'lage in ages.

Firstly, thanks for the complements and the encouragement. There are a lot of adventure stories where the heroes, about midway through the story, suddenly start to realize that they're in the middle of some game or conflict that's much bigger than they'd first realized, and I'm suspecting that Ben's warning in the S3 finale was the beginning of that.

I guess that if there's a conflict with the Freighter People that there's automatically some larger game involved, but do people have any thoughts as to how big the game is and what things they may be fighting for?

I think that it's a fight for the powers of the Island...and throw in the possibility that someone has used the VE to predict the end of the world and that's part of what's going on...I also think that the conflicting parties are looking for different outcomes and some of them can manipulate time and space and are using that to make sure that their version of what they want to happen happens...well...at least they're trying to...I think that there's one variable in the VE, the human element, that's at play here...

I'd said earlier that I'd supply some of the reasoning behind the theory presented here. A lot of my deductions depend not just on the clues given in what we've been shown, but also from the mechanics of storytelling. For example, there are a lot of wonderful theories out there that would be almost impossible to present to a diverse mainstream network audience, though they'd be perfectly workable on the SciFi channel. There are also theories that are wonderfully clever, but would be impossible to explain on a television program due to complexity, because on TV, disclosures are short and preferably shown rather than told.

In this story, most all disclosures are done in 2 or 3 sentences. The lengthier ones are still pretty short and are rare. These would include things like Ben's "Imagine a Box" speech, Ms Hawking's "We're all dead" speech, and Tom's "This is our Island" speech. Even these lengthy disclosures are only long enough to give a glimpse of the full picture. The only disclosures longer than these are the Orientation Films, which actually just talk to the audience, but these are rarest of all. Unless the writers radically change their storytelling methods, it's short disclosures like these, action scenes, and of course, sudden visual revelations, like the pile of unopened pneumatic capsules, that will likely tell us everything. The theory given here is designed to be disclosed with no more than little fragments like these.

In many adventure stories, it's common to start out with The Heroes dealing with some limited problem until about mid-story, when it's revealed that there's a much larger struggle going on around them, and the scope of the whole story suddenly baloons into something much bigger. Also right around then, it appeared that things were just about resolved and then suddenly everything goes from the frying pan into the fire, new alliances are forged, and the struggle takes on a whole new direction. I think the flashbacks have consistently hinted to us of "bigger" things happening in the background, but the coming of not-penny's-boat is the first hint of this to the story characters. The story has been set up for just such a big transition as this.

In Lost, we've seen mention of not one, but three rich and powerful people; Alvar Hanso, Charles Widmore, and Paik, whose first name almost appears to be "Mr." I'd suspect that the writers would only repeat the rich-and-powerful picture all these times if they had reasons for each one to be in the story. Otherwise, it's meaningless and dull repetition. So far, only Hanso's needed to be so wealthy, as someone had to create the infrastructure on the island. The other Kings' purposes will be revealed in time.

Someone would appear to be backing Ben's Gang, with supplies (these people are far too well-supplied to be living on Dharma leftovers after all this time), support for the submarine (not something that can be done by amateurs), outside "front" organizations like Mittelos Bioscience and Herarat Aviation, and especially the supply of poison gas for the purge. Keep in mind that a functional weapon like this can't be whipped up in the jungle (otherwise terrorists would have adopted it long ago). And it's normally only available to governments. Then again, there's the matter of the well coordianted and executed abduction of Cooper, which involved a staged accident, ambulance pickup, clandestine transport of a live body out of the country, and probably lots of influence/payoffs with the authorities, not to get involved. I respect theories that try to minimize all these, but I think that all the evidence together is overwhelming for an organization backing Ben. (Not that Ben's in charge; he's probably an underling...) In any case, it's enough to justify constructing a theory like this one.

Someone in opposition to Ben's Gang is backing not-pennys-boat. Now, in the Real World, there's no end of evil rich villains, but I think in the World Of Lost, we're reasonably safe to assume there are probably only the Three Kings as possibilities. The writers could throw in as many new villains as they'd like of course, but the Three Kings have already been introduced and are waiting to be used. There's just no reason to bring in yet more, and besides, a story is that much more satisfying when someone you already know becomes significant, rather than just pulling new characters suddenly out of a hat.
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Who might back Ben? Considering that Ben's Gang murdered most of The Dharma Initiative which was backed by Hanso, I think we can rule Hanso out. We can also rule out Paik, only because his daughter is not only stranded on the island but in a life-threatening situation there. If Paik was getting information from Ben, he'd know his daughter was still alive and then Sun would have "vanished" one night, assumed eaten by a polar bear or an especially hungry Smoke Cloud, and would have "appeared" back in the Outside World with a cover story that proved she was never on flight 815. That hasn't happened, which leaves Widmore. Is there anything else that's happened in the story that would make it convenient storywise for Widmore to know all about the island?

It's one way (not the only one... more on that another time...) to explain Desmond's bizarre shipwreck there. Consider how implausible it is that a wild-eyed dreamer like Desmond would be given a fabulously expensive sailboat by a stranger no less, so he could compete in Widmore's yacht race. This screams "set-up." Who could afford to give away a yacht? Widmore, for one. He could also afford to have it outfitted to falsely navigate Desmond to the island, provided he happened to know all about it... As a result, he's separated his precious daughter from the good-for-nothing dreamer she's attatched to, and dumped him in a place where it seems easy to get in but nearly impossible to get out of. We have motive, method, and opportunity. A pretty good case. But only if he knows all about the island.

The story of he Real Henry Gale's baloon is interesting but an awful lot of extra story just to provide Sayid with a way to capture Ben in a lie about his real identity. Is there another reason it's there? One of the promo scenes of the baloon that was cut from the episode shows it with a Widmore logo in it. Now, since the scene was cut, it may not be strictly canon, but we have evidence of a second person stranded on the island, connected to Widmore. This seems too much coincidence even for a show like Lost, but let's look for further convenient connections...

From Penny's point of view, Desmond was lost at sea. She may have lots of money, but knowing where to look, knowing to look for a magnetic anomoly, and her being available by radio just when Charlie disabled the jammer seems way, way, __way__ too implausible. Unless Daddy already had connections to the island. These are just details that the writrers could fill in however they like, but as an example, Penny may have gotten a leaked tip from someone inside Daddy's organization that Desmond was still alive and on an "invisible" island due to a specially rigged shipwreck. By further digging, she may have found that Daddy's company was contracted to build a huge complex there for the Hanso Foundation, along with Paik Heavy Industries. She'd contact these people with questions; probably even give them a photo of her with Desmond, letting them know that she's looking for this man.

Part of her digging also gives her the information that some sort of magnetic pulse may emanate from the island at unexpected times, so she'd finance listening posts to get a location. When they get it, she passes the information on to her contacts at Paik Heavy Industries. She doesn't know they already have a boat in the area, originally looking just for the island, but now also in a mad search to rescue the Big Boss' daughter who may be stranded there. And because Daddy Widmore is backing the people on the island, he has the ability to communicate with them, when they're not jamming the channels. Now let's suppose that when the jamming goes down, an alarm sounds to alert Daddy Widmore, and a connection is established. But suppose Daddy wasn't there but Penny was? Or suppose Penny has had Daddy's communication equipment duplicated? Then when Charlie disconnected the jammer, and her own alarm sounded, she might just be there, waiting to find out who's at the other end. Remember that Penny didn't seem to know what was happening when she talked to Charlie. She was there to find out. But we can be reasonably sure she did know the communication was significant (She asked Charlie how he got that frequency; a question that wouldn't be asked unless she knew there were something special about it.) Penny was exploring something she didn't fully understand; just what we'd expect if she only got little leads from people in Daddy's organization.

Hanso's connection to this? They may be with Paik, but I'd expect that they already know the exact location of the island, and are keeping it to themselves. The problem with the island isn't getting in, but getting out, and their escape route may have been taken away from them. Perhaps the failsafe has even closed the little door that was disclosed by Ben to Michael. Or perhaps that door never existed. (Ben wouldn't tell a _lie_ now, would he?) So it's possible that Hanso's purpose in the story so far is to be the plausible explanation for why the current technological infrastructure exists on the island in the first place. But it's unlikely that he just rolled over and played dead when he was thrown off the island. He's striking back in his own way. We'll leave that for another time...

I've been very delinquent in filling in more of the details behind this theory. While we're not going to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, we will go over a simple idea that will explain a large list of odd things we've seen in the past. With such a huge tangle of odd mysteries, we should expect that there will be individual revelations that will deal with many of them all at once. This list will include:

1) Naomi and Cooper's surprising comments that flight 815 crashed and killed all aboard.
2) The discrepancy between Naomi's and the Pilot's statements that put flight 815 in two completely different oceans.
3) Why Richard Malkin gafe a ticket to Claire, and told her she couldn't take any other flight, and why so many other 815'ers had tickets for the flight supplied to them.
4) Why the Others were so interested in Walt and Aaron.
5) The unexpected hostility of the Others toward the 815'ers.
6) The story behind the watch Jin was delivering.
7) Why Cindy defected to the Others.

Depending on how the writers envision the exact revelation, some of these points might be excluded, but a revelation something like the following would allow most to be explained. The revelation would go something like:

"One of the Three Kings who knows the location of the island has located many people in the Outside World with Ben's talent for communicating with the island. In order to disrupt Ben's authority there, a large number of them have been guided onto a single flight to be kidnapped to the island, but not crashed there. The other kings knew that the flight was heading there, and included people of their own on that flight, each for their own reasons."

This, plus a little speculation as to what the writers might do with it, might explain all of the mysteries listed above. To reiterate earlier parts of the theory, everything falls neatly in place if we presume that the King who controls the island, through Ben's group, is Charles Widmore, the King behind Naomi's people is Paik, and the King who also knows of the island's location and is trying to undermine Widmore by undermining Ben is Hanso, or those in control of his organization. Hanso has arranged for the kidnapping of flight 815. We might immediately see how, if one were to kidnap an entire planeload of passengers, a cover story would be needed to make it appear that the plane was lost and unrecoverable. This fits perfectly into the story from Naomi and Cooper, particularly considering Naomi's comment that the plane was found literally miles below the ocean surface. This could readily be faked by preparing bogus underwater crash footage, and having one search ship with some members of the crew being in on the fakery. Because locating anything miles below the surface would be horrendously expensive to search for, there's little chance someone else would want to double-check it; particularly if there's no reason for suspicion. A claim that they located the wreckage, along with convincing deep-sea crash footage, would close the matter.

In order for a kidnap to be done, the cockpit crew would have to be in on it, and the Pilot's story does not match Naomi's, suggesting the possibility that the pilot was lying. The normal flight path of flight 815 would be entirely in the Pacific ocean, and as the Pilot said he'd turned back to land at Fiji, the Pilot would be agreeing to a Pacific Ocean flight. Yet Naomi said that the wreckage was found off Bali, in _the_Indian_Ocean_! Checking a map, I can see only one way how the Pilot could kidnap the flight and make it look like an accident. First, the flight would have to be entirely over ocean, as a flight over the Pacific would be, or it could not be made to appear that the Pilot was flying in the wrong direction. (If he were to see any land, it would be clear to outside observers that he knew he was way off-course.) To take the only over-water course possible, he'd have had to turn off his radio almost immediately after passing the northernmost part of Australia, and then veer gradually westward. It would appear like an instrumentation failure, with the flight unknmowingly going in the wrong direction. Near the deep ocean trench where the wrechage would be "fonnd," the plane would take a steep dive to drop below the radar, and then keep on going...

Because Jack's recollection of how far they dropped does not match how long we saw the drop in the flashbacks, it's clear that we were not shown the full duration of the drop; that was edited, for brevity. Likewise, we can't be sure how long the plane flew at low level before breaking up, so the island may be near or not-so-near the reported crash site for the flight. It's unlikely that a crash on the island was planned. Even though it's uncertain why so many people survived, a much larger number died. This would result in losing too many of the people specifically brought to the island. The crash was an accident, on Desmond's part. The original plan may have been to ditch the aircraft in a shallow area offshore, or perhaps there's an airstrip suitable for an emergency landing on the island.

It's surprising how many of the 815'ers were given tickets for the flight, setting them all up for a ride to the island. Michael was given tickets, ensuring that Walt would be there; Claire was given a ticket and even told she couldn't take any other flight, ensuring that Aaron would be there. Locke, who also has a special closeness to the island was given a ticket. And Eko, whose ticket story we weren't shown, was pushed away from investigating a miracle, probably so that he wouldn't miss his flight. And he was pushed away by the _same_man_ who told Claire that she couldn't take any other flight.

We should note that when Malkin told Eko not to stay and investigate the miracle, he said he was a fake psychic, and that his wife had staged the whole event to discredit him. This in itself makes little sense, as a fake psychic would almost certainly love to have the Catholic Church investigating, and hopefully declaring, a miracle in his family. This would be his ticket to millionaireville, yet he walked away from the chance. He had a bigger agenda to fulfill.

TPTB have said of the mysterious island happenings that some of the Losties are "seeing" a lot of them, some see a few, and some none at all. It appears that among those who have had tickets supplied to them, we see a trend of them being people who see at least some of the island's surprises. (Along with the "noteables," like Locke and Walt, Kate and Sawyer both had tickets purchased for them, and they saw the black horse, and found the gun case in a place where it couldn't have been...)

TPTB have said that the Others have interests in the children that go beyond the mere island pregnancy issues. With Malkin's efforts to get Aaron onto the island, and the Others' comments about Walt, they seem particularly special. While mysterious things and people have appeared to many 815'ers once they got on the island, only Walt had the exotic bird appear to him before he got there. While people like Locke and Eko had a close rapport with the island and saw many mysterious things while they were there, Walt doesn't need that proximity to the island, and possibly has much stronger talents. We may suspect that Aaron may have similar or greater abilities. It's possible that children in general have a better ability to "listen" for whatever it is that the island is doing to communicate. Locke's attitudes are certainly more childlike than not, and they seem to have brought him close enough to the island to be healed of his paralysis, almost immediately.

We should note that when Aaron was conceived, his father persuaded Claire to keep the baby, and then deserted her when it was too late to change her mind. While this sort of thing happens often enough in real life, it's at least possible that Aaron's father was in the employ of someone to breed a child with exceptional talents in communicating with the island, and to do what he could to make sure the child was brought to term. That's just a wild idea, but with all of Malkin's concern for what would happen to the child, it's not out of the realm of possibility...

We've often wondered why the Others were so hostile toward the 815'ers, making unnecessary enemies, and alienating the spinal surgeon that they'd eventually need. But if flight 815 were brought to the island, with a large number of people with Ben's island-rapport-style talent, Ben might have immediately seen them as enemies, foolishly alienating them before he found out who was aboard.

Now, let's consider that if King Hanso was bringing in a flight to undermine Ben & Widmore, that the other two Kinks may have had their spies and known about it. King Paik, who still couldn't locate the island, sent Jin, with a watch containing a transponder, that could locate the island. He knew that Jin and Sun were planning to run away in Los Angeles, and he sent a henchman to warn Jin to deliver the watch. Interestingly, though he said he knew they were planning to run away, he never said they mustn't run; only that Jin _must_ deliver the watch. This may be because Paik also knew that his daughter, Sun was planning her own runaway scenario in Sydney, and all the warning needed to do was to make sure that Jin got onto flight 815 with the watch, and didn't stay to try to find Sun. This plan went awry when Sun got on the plane after all, stranding Paik's daughter on the island too. And so the search by Naomi's people takes on a greater urgency, as they're also trying to locate the Big Boss' daughter.

It's at least possible that the stewardess Cindy was a spy in the pay of Widmore, to observe what was happening. If Widmore knew a plane was coming, he'd have wanted a spy in a position of at least a little authority, to nose around. She may have stayed spying on the tailies until they were about to join the main camp, when she snuck away to join up with Ben's people who are also in Widmore's pocket. Why leave then? It's possible that the journey across the island gave her her first chance to get near enough to Otherville that she could easily get there. Or, it's also possible that Widmore already has a spy or two in Our Heroes' main camp...

We should note that when Aaron was conceived, his father persuaded Claire to keep the baby, and then deserted her when it was too late to change her mind. While this sort of thing happens often enough in real life, it's at least possible that Aaron's father was in the employ of someone to breed a child

This has always been a popular theory. It became even more so when the Swan mural turned out to be eerily similar to Thomas's art work..
The Swan mural artist seemed to have some sort of psychic ability, so the implication would be someone whose art was very similar would have similar ability.

In a podcast or on a DVD, Darlton revealed the Swan artist was Desmond.

It's been a while since I've posted portions of this theory here, and it's time to look at some of the things intimately connected to the island. When it's all done, the full theory being expressed here will result in a small number of "major" revelations (about a dozen) from which most all of the major mysteries of the story may be explained. They're just a starting point of course; we'd never have Imagined Dharma in our season 1 theories and we'd never have considered the magnitude of The Others' operations in our season 2 theories. The story is likely to grow further in unexpected directions as season 4 unfolds.

This posting will cover the reveals that might explain, among other things,

1) What is the smoke monster?
2) Who is Jacob, and what is his list?
3) What are the voices?
4) What are the apparitions?
5) How did the Nigerian drug plane get to the island? How did the gun case appear where it couldn't have been?
6) Why did the exotic bird that Walt was reading about crash into the window of the room where he sat?
7) A placard held by Damon Lindelof during the writer's strike asked the unusually worded question, "Do you want to know what the island is?" Not what the island is about, but what it _is_. So, beyond being an island, exactly what _is_ it?

Let's begin with a remarkable exchange between Ben and Mikhail; a startling revelation, but tossed into the middle of an episode of intense action (TTLG), where it might be missed:

Ben: You have to understand. Everything I did, I did for the island.
Mikhail: The island told you it was necessary for you to jam your own people?
Ben: Yes it did. You've always been a loyalist, Mikhail. Now I'm asking you to trust me...to trust Jacob who told me to do this.
Mikhail: Why would Jacob ask you to lie to your own people?
Ben: Because this island is under assault by forces stronger than anything its had to deal with in many many years and we are meant to protect it, Mikhail, by any means necessary. The jamming was for everyone's security. We are in a serious situation here.

What just happened here? Mikhail asked if _the_island_ told Ben to do the jamming. Ben said yes it did tell him. Then he elaborated and said that Jacob told him to do this. Is Jacob the island? The island may very well be posessed with intelligence, but this explanation alone misses something important. We also have the whisper transcripts. For those who haven't read them, or haven't read them in a long time, I'd recommend it now. Most theories tend to ignore them and those that use them tend to ignore their content, but they're important.

The whispers amount to separate conversations, on the left, right, and center audio tracks of the signal, often all simultaneously. They appear to involve discussions of what's happening to the character(s) on-screen, and often involve a lot of uncertainty about them and worry on the part of the whisperers. Some more intriguing phrases are, "Did he see us?" "We should hide, we should run." There are a lot of whisperers. With sometimes three separate conversations involving at least two per conversation, there are a minimum of six. But some conversations clearly involve more than two as evidenced by the whispers about Sayid in "Solitary:"

Male Voice- "Just let him get out of here"
Male Voice- "He's seen too much already"
Male Voice- "What if he tells?"
Female Voice - "Could just speak to him"
Male Voice- "No"

There are at least two male voices and the female voice. Of all the voices so far, there's never been more than one female voice in a conversation. There appears to be a sugestion here that the whisperers could actually reveal themselves to Sayid, but one, who appears to be in charge, vetoes the idea.

There appear to be in the island, a group of intelligences, at least one of them dominant over the others. Perhaps the dominant one is Jacob, with the others subservient to him. If this is so, there's an interesting (but completely unsubstantiated) possibility in all this.Let's suppose that Jacob is a name given by Ben to the dominant voice. Now let's suppose that in addition to Jacob, there are twelve other intelligences following him. The biblical Jacob had twelve sons and one daughter. As Ben learned of these intelligences, he might have noticed this, and at one time considered himself to be another follower of the dominant voice. It now has twelve "sons" and a "daughter," just like the biblical Jacob. Furthermore, Jacob's youngest and final son was named Benjamin. Further-furthermore, by constantly invoking the name of Jacob among the Others, he's asserting himself as the absolutely last son of Jacob; there can be no more. This might be useful as an answer to any challenges to Ben's authority.

And then Jacob would not be the island, but the dominant voice of the island.

Among the voices, there is fear of discovery by the 815'ers, but the occasional suggestion to reveal themselves, which isn't ever done. Or is it? An all-encompasing theory of Lost can't have separate "ad hoc" explanations for every mystery. Some of them will have to combine or there'll be no time left in the remaining 48 episodes to explain them all. Let's try to combine the island intelligences with "the box" mentioned by Ben to Locke. Let's presume that the intelligences have an ability to manipulate matter; they can heal those they choose, they can create physical objects, even complex ones, and they can even create physical bodies that they can animate and control. Let's presume that the intelligences have the ability to sense and read intense feelings.

BTW, for brevity and for harmony with many of the other ideas floating around out there, let's just use "the island" to refer to Jacob or one or more of the intelligences that we've heard in the voices.

At least one of them may then be trying to gradually reveal itself by creating things that people feel with intense emotion. Most of the apparitions or maybe-apparitions seen so far would have been thought of intensely by someone. These would include Ben's mother, Jack's father, Yemi, Kate's horse (probably) and the wet Walt apparition seen by Shannon. (At the time, she knew about the bottle of messages washing up on the beach and she'd have presumed everyone on the raft had drowned. In an uncharacteristic moment, Shannon broke down and thought about someone other than herself...) It's possible even that Vincent is an apparition, appearing when "the island" finds it useful. Ben said to Locke that whatever you wish for will come out of the box; he was almost right. What Ben "wished for" (like his mother) were things that he felt with intense emotion, and this was the key. The one exception in the apparitions might be the mature Walt that got Locke up out of the pit of corpses. This was produced not from someone's emotions but by "the island's" own choice, in order to try to protect itself from the coming invaders on the freighter.

Now let's consider things like the drug plane, which couldn't fly from Nigeria all the way to the island, and the gun case, which was very conspicuously checked by the marshall because it couldn't be brought into the cabin of flight 815, and yet was found wedged under a passenger seat, suggesting that it couldn't have been anywhere _but_ in the cabin of the plane. These are both things that were thought of intensely. The plane was thought of by Eko and the gun case by Kate. (Actually, Kate was obsessed over the toy plane _in_ the case, but she was searching for the case.) Each thing that appeared (was created by "the island") was there because it was wanted intensely.

Now, TPTB have said that some of the Losties are seeing a lot of these unusual things on the island, some are seeing a little, and some none at all. It would appear that "the island" will respond better to some people than others. Perhaps it has its favorites, perhaps it feels secure with only some of the people, or perhaps some people are just more willing to listen to "the island," and have the talent to "hear" it. Among Ben's people, we've only seen evidence that Ben had this talent of connecting with the island. Yet on flight 815, there seem to have been many. This is consistent with earlier posts on this theory, explaining how flight 815 was deliberately brought to the island, including a hand-selected group of people with talents for communicating with "the island." They didn't know they had the talent or were going to the island, but all were given tickets (How Eko got his is still uncertain) and Claire was even told she couldn't take any other flight. If Ben was the only one in his people with the talent, and someone else (one of the Three Kings) wanted to undermine Ben's hold there, then bringing many people with his talent would be a great disruption to him. In one of the mobisodes, there even seems to have been a desire to get Walt away from the island because of this.

In this theory, we'll not look at Walt as someone with mighty powers doing great things, but rather a scared and lonely little boy who has great and powerful talents that he can't understand. While a lot of special people have been brought on flight 815 who can commune with the island, Walt was able to commune with it, even far away, explaining how the exotic bird he was reading about could be created even when he was not on the island. Isaac the faith healer, who said he couldn't heal Rose, said that there were multiple "places of power" on the planet. His conversation explained how the place he lived at (Ayer's Rock) was one of them, and it was at least suggested that he used its power to heal. Walt appears to have greater talents than anyone else, able even to access this power when not in one of the "places of power." But he doesn't know how to control them, making him an interesting wild-card...

In communicating with Ben, "the island" may have told of the many new people who could suddenly "hear" it. This previously-unheard-of collection of people with the talent to commune on some level with the island would have constituted "Jacob's list." We should note that Jack didn't make the cut, because even though he could see the apparition of his father, he refused to accept it as real, and so while he could "hear" the island if he chose to do so, he's chosen not to. He's off the list by choice, rather than by lack of the talent.

Lastly, if "the island" can manipulate matter to such detail that apparitions of people appear real and a created drug plane can actually have a working radio, it can also create something to act as its eyes and hands if it wants to manipulate things on the island. When creating something for its own use, it's not constrained to creating things visibly familiar to us, but rather might want something in a pliable, easily-manipulated form. This would be the basis of the smoke monster. Many theories will make "the island" and the smoke cloud into two separate entities, and this is certainly possible. But as we're trying to combine mysteries where we can here because there's limited time left to reveal everything and also resolve the story too, there's no reason not to at least try combining the two, and see how it works. So far, there's nothing to contradict it. We'll see...

The theory as explained so far in this thread presents a consistent picture that explains almpst all of the major mysteries in the story so far. A few, like exactly what "the island" wants, are completely up in thew air and yet to be revealed. Minor details that could be explained by mundane activities, like, how the fragment of the swan film got into the arrow hatch, are ignored as not really being mysteries at all.

I'll be looking through the entire thread to fill in details I've missed, and eventually to list out the main reveals that would have to be made in the story in order to reveal this sort of theory in actual scripted shows. You'll be surprised at how few are needed, and keeping the number of reveals needed to a minimum was the "principal principle" that guided the formulation of this theory. More on that later...

Wes, I'm confused, I readily admit that.

In your Three Kings story, which I do love, you suggest:

the Wizards of Dharma, wishing to save the world, created instead the Terrible Incident, that threatened instead to destroy it. A great magical spell, called the Spell of the Failsafe, could wash away the Terrible Incident, but anyone who cast the spell would be cursed forever, and none could be found who would dare. There was a lesser spell, the Spell of the Button, that could cause the Terrible Incident to sleep for a short while, but it must be cast again and again forever, unless one could be found to cast the greater spell.So, um, why can't it be automated? Either the Button or the Failsafe? What's all the electromagnetism about? Is there a Reason? Or are you saying it's just an arbitrary element of Fantasy, and there aren't any Reasons to uncover, no underlying Rules governing the Fantasy?

I missed the part where you explain why automation doesn't work, why people have to be involved. Why isn't it all automated? Why didn't Dharma build a little robot to turn the key? Does the Island have a different attitude towards little robots than human beings?

Personally, I'm not too impressed with the Dharma Initiative. I don't think they've really got their act together, do you?


The Wizards of Dharma built a dwelling in the Cavern of the Swan; the place where people would live and cast the spells. They would be shut in alone, as hermits, and told there was great danger in leaving. Day and night, they would cast the Button Spell, but the Wizards' hope was that someone would either tire of it or become alarmed at the effects of not casting the Button Spell, and finally cast the cursed Spell of the Failsafe.Why only two people?


The man cursed by the failsafe would neither live his life from young to old nor old to young, but in a broken, mixed-up order, and he would live them over and over again. Usually, he would only remember events from the younger parts of his life, but occasionally there would be glimpses of older life events. These he would think were glimpses of the future, but actually they were just memories of what he had already done. But some of these events could be changed, especially if he remembered them.Sounds like time travel to me, but in a different metaphor.

Given the absurdity of the Dharma Initiative, the failure of their technologies, and their failure to integrate with the Natives, does it make sense that the power of the Failsafe Curse is wholly a human creation, or an exploitation of the Island's natural properties? If the Failsafe Curse has the "time weirdness" properties you've described, why can't those properties be in play elsewhere in the story?

yours,
jane

So, um, why can't it be automated? Either the Button or the Failsafe? What's all the electromagnetism about? Is there a Reason? Or are you saying it's just an arbitrary element of Fantasy, and there aren't any Reasons to uncover, no underlying Rules governing the Fantasy?

I missed the part where you explain why automation doesn't work, why people have to be involved. Why isn't it all automated? Why didn't Dharma build a little robot to turn the key? Does the Island have a different attitude towards little robots than human beings?


Well now, I've been suggesting that the button _could_ have been automated. If I'd written the program to read the numbers from the keyboard and then initiate some event to reset the IMT (Invisible Magnetism Thingie), I'd claim it would have taken me less time to write it to just have it loop and do the reset thing every 108 minutes, without any reading of the keyboard. The fact that it wasn't done that way suggests that they wanted a system that would eventually fail, so as to get someone to turn the failsafe. As to why they couldn't just automate the turning of the failsafe...

TPTB have talked about how turning the failsafe has had an effect on Desmond. I've wondered repeatedly myself why the DI couldn't have built the whole failsafe mechanism such that the very automation you've suggested would _not_ have that effect... but they didn't. Was the effect because Desmond was so "close" to the IMT? Then why not locate the key switch further away? Locke, Eko and Charlie weren't so affected, and if the key switch were in the main hatch where they were, it would have been easier to get to in an emergency. (You'd think they'd think of that ??!!) ...but they didn't. It has the look to me of a story complication they just haven't explained yet.

We don't have any information about this, so the writers can do just about anything they want to it. As long as you accept that there's an IMT, and as long as you accept that it can kill everybody in the world as Ms Hawking said, I suppose you can presume that the mechanism of disabling it requires a human to be intimately in contact with it.

Hopefully the writers will detail that carefully enough as to not dissapoint...

As far as why magnetism is involved, I'd suspect that that's just a convenient story element. Magnetism has visible effects and TV is a very visual medium, and there have always been plenty of people who think that magnets are somehow "magic" and are capable of all sorts of mysterious things. I'd claim that most all sciFi is fantasy with a thin veneer over it. There are some notable exceptions, of course, but on television it's rare. As someone whose degrees are in electrical engineering, I've considered the veneer pretty thin whenever they brought the magnetism part in at all, but I don't let that spoil the story for me. (When they talked about using jamming to "hide" the island, the veneer wore completely through... a jamming signal is actually a very loud radio signal, and the freighter folks should have been able to follow _that_ straight to the island, but this is just one of my own personal gripes... if you'll indulge me, I won't expect you to care...)
100%
BTW, if you check out the rest of this theory in the "non-storybook" posts, I think you'll see that my impression of the DI is that they've been well-intentioned but incompetent. But hey, the writers are Californians. If they're gonna write a sciFi story and they follow the stereotype that the rest of us have about them, their ideal may just want to show the scientists as fools, the corporate big shots as monsters, and the wild-eyed dreamers like Locke and Desmond will likely be the "heroes" in the end.

(My sincerest apologies to the (probably vast) majority of you Californians that don't follow the stereotype, BTW; I'm just pointing out how well that stereotypical ideal fits with the whole theory here...)
100%

Why only two people?


As I've said before, this sets the whole system up for failure, to panic someone into activating the failsafe...
100%

Sounds like time travel to me, but in a different metaphor.

Given the absurdity of the Dharma Initiative, the failure of their technologies, and their failure to integrate with the Natives, does it make sense that the power of the Failsafe Curse is wholly a human creation, or an exploitation of the Island's natural properties? If the Failsafe Curse has the "time weirdness" properties you've described, why can't those properties be in play elsewhere in the story?


In this version, it would only be "time travel" if you wanted it to be...

Some people would see "Groudhog day" as a time travel movie, and some likely won't. Among those who won't are those who'd "never" go see a sciFi movie, yet they enjoyed the story anyway...

What's described here is a very lite version of sciFi, which I think will be more palatable to the diverse audience that this show has. The writers may choose to try something heavier, but I'm just betting that they won't.

We'll see...

Well now, I've been suggesting that the button _could_ have been automated. The fact that it wasn't done that way suggests that they wanted a system that would eventually fail, so as to get someone to turn the failsafe.

This seems like pretty bulletproof logic to me, Wes. How does that fit in with your thinking about the DHARMA Initiative as "well-intentioned but incompetent"?

Thank you so much for taking the time to engage with me, Wes. I really like the story you weave. You've really done some amazing work. It is a lot of fun, and I'm all about having fun. Since this is, like, a TV show and all. I apologize if I ever came across as snippy.

Okay, just to make sure we are on the same page, and that I understand where you're coming from. I think we both agree that the IMT couldn't be just left alone - the whole electromagnetic craziness (EMC) at the end of Season 2 seems to confirm that, yes?

And you're saying that the Failsafe was the only way to make it safely go away, which I totally agree if that's what you're saying. The button was a stopgap measure to try and lure someone into triggering the Failsafe? But it also kept the IMT at bay, yes? So, the button pushing has more than one purpose, right? To hold off the Bad Thing until the Failsafe Good Thing, as well as encouraging the latter?

Please correct me if I misread you in any of the above statements.

So...

Why bother with all that? Why not just tell the latest recruit that they're making a pile of money to participate in an experiment, and just have them go down and turn the Failsafe Key? I agree that DI is well-intentioned if incompetent, but they aren't complete and utter morons, are they?

Now, maybe they're being ethical about it, I could see that. They make it known that it's a Choice, with Serious Consequences. But then, why is it a Choice at all, if saving the world is at stake? And if they're being ethical, why hasn't anyone been told what the Serious Consequences actually entail?

It makes my head spin, it does.


TPTB have talked about how turning the failsafe has had an effect on Desmond. I've wondered repeatedly myself why the DI couldn't have built the whole failsafe mechanism such that the very automation you've suggested would _not_ have that effect... but they didn't. Yeah, why isn't it automated? It's not like it's technically not feasible, even back in the 70's. A Rube Goldberg contraption could have done the trick.

I mean, it's all well and good to say that that's just the way it is, you can do that in the Fantasy genre. But doesn't it seem a bit, I don't know, a cheap and easy way out for the writers to go? Especially with all the encouragement they've given us to explore their creation with "pseudoscience" in mind?

I keep coming back to the question I wrestle with:

Is there a Reason? Or is it arbitrary Fantasy, with no underlying Rules?I guess it depends on what a priori assumptions we make about the show, and how much consistency we demand of ourselves in our theorizing. The question I wrestle with is, is it all Rhyme, or is there also Reason?

Is it anything goes, or is there Rhyme and Reason?

The a priori assumptions of Science itself are pretty simple, as I understand them. The Universe exists, and we can make systematic sense of it. Is that more or less your understanding, too?

TPTB say it can all be explained with science and "pseudoscience." Either we believe them, or we don't. If we don't believe them, why theorize? The show is pretty "out there", so we have to take the "science" with a grain of salt, like you suggest - from the "jamming" to how the Looking Glass flooded to the unrealistic explosions.

Still, it seems to me that the writers are lazy cheaters if they aren't using some "Rules" to govern their universe, especially with their promises that it makes Sense.

So, what kinds of evidence are sufficient to believe the writers have a Plan, that they have Rules, and that they have the Discipline to follow them? What evidence does it take to believe the writers are not Lazy Cheaters?

Hey wes and jane,

I've thrown my hat into the ring with a possible explanation (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1697106&postcount=71) for why the button-pushing in the Swan needed to be manual as opposed to automated.

Keep in mind that one of the key themes of the show has been the human perception of time. Time is radically different in the way it works than we perceive it to be. It is a variable thing, with the variability being influenced by masses and energies and the curvatures they cause. Given that, in an environment with a changing field (e.g., what TPTB have likened to a buildup behind a dam) the changing curvature of spacetime would make time variable. A local observer would be needed, one who had a frame of reference in "local" spacetime, or some form of communication from such a frame of reference.

This seems like pretty bulletproof logic to me, Wes. How does that fit in with your thinking about the DHARMA Initiative as "well-intentioned but incompetent"?

Well now, that's an interesting way of looking at it...

I guess I'd imagine that even though they weren't capable of managing their affairs on the island adequately, it needn't then follow that everything they did consistently failed. It's just that they were pretty good at finding ways to fail, but not perfect at it... :rolleyes:

Although, with the purge wiping out any chance for a relief team to replace Radzinsky and Kelvin, then Radzinsky's suicide, Desmond's killing Kelvin and then almost getting back to the button too late, and then Desmond's near-suicide, only interrupted by Locke's fortuitous banging on the hatch, there were numerous opportunities for the button-press to be missed without activating the failsafe, there were plenty of opportunities for Dharma's well-intentioned plan to fail. It might seem that fate/luck had a much bigger hand in the sucess with the failsafe plan than did Dharma's "careful" planning.

That's just a guess though... does it seem the least bit reasonable?
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Okay, just to make sure we are on the same page, and that I understand where you're coming from. I think we both agree that the IMT couldn't be just left alone - the whole electromagnetic craziness (EMC) at the end of Season 2 seems to confirm that, yes?

And you're saying that the Failsafe was the only way to make it safely go away, which I totally agree if that's what you're saying. The button was a stopgap measure to try and lure someone into triggering the Failsafe? But it also kept the IMT at bay, yes? So, the button pushing has more than one purpose, right? To hold off the Bad Thing until the Failsafe Good Thing, as well as encouraging the latter?


I guess that's close enough. The only change I might make is to point out that this portion of the theory is not based so much on evidence as consistency, so it's more of a suggestion. That is, it's not necessary to support the rest of the theory; it merely explains _more_than_one_ mytery consistently.

An idea that merely explains one thing is "ad hoc" by definition, and a dozen of us can make a dozen conflicting ad hoc explanations for every mystery. I try to avoid those, unless the explanation would also result in a really interesting dramatic turn, which would make it a little more likely that the writers would latch onto that particular one. (That doesn't make it right, or even likely; just a little more likely than the alternatives...)

So I guess what I'm saying is that this is one of those things that we have nothing solid to back it up, but which connects what I consider to be an obvious fragility of the button protocol with Ms. Hawking and Br. Campbell's activities, as well as Libby's giving Desmond the yacht. There's no evidence that these items are all connected, but they're gonna need to connect a lot of the separate mysteries if they're gonna explain them all in 48 episodes.

A good writer can plan this sort of thing ahead by working out the events that are needed to create/resolve one mystery and then _presenting_ them separately as though they were not connected. By connecting the dots later on, they create the "aha" moment in the audience. I'm looking for connections between apparently unconnected events that would create the aha moments and this might (or might not...) be one of them.

hv, you always have some interesting ideas, and I do love them so!

Sadly, my brain hurts today, so I'm going to try and stay away from strange time theories and relativity and all that. They give me headaches. I can barely understand magnetism as it is. I'll try and weave your bit into this story, though, albeit from a different perspective.

I'm really interested in the story Wes has spun. He's suggesting that the Invisible Magnetic Thingy is in fact "The Incident" (Kelvin's testimony backs this up) and that the Swan has been set up to convince someone to activate the Failsafe Spell, the only safe way to make the IMT go away once and for all. I think it's a novel way of approaching the situation and deserves more consideration.

Here's his text again. He has such a way with words! He's casting the Lost story in the genre of Fantasy or Magical Realism, which works fine for me.

On a dark day, the Wizards of Dharma, wishing to save the world, created instead the Terrible Incident, that threatened instead to destroy it. A great magical spell, called the Spell of the Failsafe, could wash away the Terrible Incident, but anyone who cast the spell would be cursed forever, and none could be found who would dare. There was a lesser spell, the Spell of the Button, that could cause the Terrible Incident to sleep for a short while, but it must be cast again and again forever, unless one could be found to cast the greater spell.

The Wizards of Dharma built a dwelling in the Cavern of the Swan; the place where people would live and cast the spells. They would be shut in alone, as hermits, and told there was great danger in leaving. Day and night, they would cast the Button Spell, but the Wizards' hope was that someone would either tire of it or become alarmed at the effects of not casting the Button Spell, and finally cast the cursed Spell of the Failsafe.


So the Dharma Initiative has been cast as a well-meaning group, but somewhat incompetent - they think they know what they're doing, but they don't. Somehow they lacked the foresight to anticipate the consequences of their "spellcasting" - which is metaphorically depicted in Lost as "engineering" and "technology".

For some reason, "engineering" an automated system for triggering the Failsafe won't work. We don't know the reason, but we hope a "reason" actually exists, for the sake of Good Storytelling.

The Wizards *want* the Failsafe to be triggered, and by a human being it seems. The button is just a means to an end, though it has real consequences as well - the story is a bit hazy here, but that's okay, because it's a wonderful story Wes has told, of that I'm sure.

Triggering the Failsafe has some real problems. It curses the one who casts the spell:

The man cursed by the failsafe would neither live his life from young to old nor old to young, but in a broken, mixed-up order, and he would live them over and over again.

This is a pretty accurate description of what's happened to Des *after* triggering the Failsafe. His life has been scrambled, it appears out of order to him. He has "future memories" which are startling accurate, yet open to change.

There's another big problem with the Failsafe Curse, which has to do with human regret and human choice.

if a man were found to cast the accursed Failsafe Spell and later regret doing so, he might undo this choice when he relived some of his life's events. This meant that once an unfortunate soul was found to cast the Failsafe Spell, he must be guided carefully, to make sure that his choices were never undone.

So, to recap, The Failsafe is the Spell to undo The Incident, created by benevolent but incompetent Wizards - Wizards who are nonetheless competent enough to cast mighty spells in the first place. The Button is a Minor Spell, to keep the Incident at bay, but also to get someone to cast the Cursed Failsafe Spell in the first place.

The Failsafe Spell *must* be cast by a person, otherwise the Wizards would have made some kind of "device" to do it automatically - both wes and I agree that the mechanics of automation are simple enough. Somehow a "human element" is a crucial ingredient in the Spellcasting, which is perfectly in accord with Magical Realism.


Many were sent to the Cavern of the Swan, and would not be tricked into casting the spell. But when Sir Desmond the Sad was guided to the island, they at last achieved their goal.

Are they trying to "trick" someone into casting the Spell? I would hope not, or the Wizards aren't so benevolent after all. Ethically speaking, whoever casts the Failsafe Spell should know what the consequences entail. Does Desmond know the consequences of his decision?

Here's what he hears from Kelvin:

Desmond enters the code and seeks out Kelvin who is drunk and singing with a key under the bunker. Kelvin sits next to an open hatch with a spot for the key labeled Caution: System Termination.

Kelvin: I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.

Desmond: What is this?

Kelvin: This is the only other way out, partner.

Desmond: What are you talking about?

Kelvin: Failsafe. Turn this key and this all goes away.

Desmond: What's behind that wall, Kelvin? Huh? What was the incident?

Kelvin: Electromagnetism, geologically unique. The incident... there was a leak. So
now the charge builds up and every time we push the button it discharges it before it gets too big.

Desmond: Why make us do it... push the button? If we... if we can just...

Kelvin: Here's the real question, Desmundo... do you have the courage to take your finger out of the dam and blow the whole thing up, instead?


By the time Desmond is on the scene, the "consequences" of casting the Failsafe Spell are described as "take your finger out of the dam and blow the whole thing up."

Which isn't quite what actually happens, is it? So, I'm wondering why the story passed down by the Wizards isn't accurate. I can think of several reasons.

First, it may be that the Wizards don't know the consequences, other than that they are severe. Given their admitted incompetence and lack of foresight, this makes sense to me. They suspect the consequences are Severe, and they've communicated that by putting the Failsafe Altar under the floors, evoking an "Underworld" theme. Likewise, the Red Hieroglyphs on the Counter are scary and are said to mean "Underworld" as well. Basically, they think the worst that can happen is that you'd die. Anything less than or more than dying is a bonus!

On the other hand, the Wizards may have long abandoned the Special Place, afraid of its wrath or booted out by Natives. They keep sending people there, but the story of what really happens has been Lost, as orally transmitted stories often change and documents get misplaced or destroyed. Maybe they realized after many years that the thought of Dying was more appealing to a potential hero (or sucker) than the idea of being Cursed, but that seems less ethical to me - though a practical consideration nonetheless.

It seems to me that the Wizards don't really trust someone to actually step up to the plate and Cast The Spell. I mean, why go through all the rigamarole of building the Swan to get someone to "do it" in such a sideways manner? Why not just spell it out in a straightforward manner? Why practice the ethics of making it a Choice if it's so important?

I think this is key to figuring out the Rules Of Spellcasting in this Special Place, but I'd like to hear what Wes has to think. In particular, I'd like to know why he thinks the Sad Coward Desmond was such a good candidate to do the job!

Why bother with all that? Why not just tell the latest recruit that they're making a pile of money to participate in an experiment, and just have them go down and turn the Failsafe Key? I agree that DI is well-intentioned if incompetent, but they aren't complete and utter morons, are they?

Now, maybe they're being ethical about it, I could see that. They make it known that it's a Choice, with Serious Consequences. But then, why is it a Choice at all, if saving the world is at stake? And if they're being ethical, why hasn't anyone been told what the Serious Consequences actually entail?

It makes my head spin, it does.


In any mystery, I've found that I can sort most significant events into two groups; those related to visible clues, and those related to undisclosed character motivations.

The first group forms the major Puzzle, and a "fair" writer will give us enough to solve the Puzzle, without burying us in an unfairly large number of red herrings (though some red herrings are expected and reasonable)

The second group is used only sparingly by a good writer, but allows some things to be hidden until the very end, and these involve some cute minor revelations. For some really minor things, they may not be even explained at all, but allow minor loose ends to be dismissed.

I'd suspect that the "why bother" question will at least fall into the character motivation bucket. If my speculation is correct, then somewhere along the line, someone made a decision on a protocol. It involved condemning some unfortunate victim to a very nasty fate. If this decision-maker had some sense of morality, they might reject simply duping an unwitting victim into the task. What we might see here is an example of "giving the suckers a chance to back out." That is, those entrusted with the failsafe key were told that there was some unknown-but-big danger involved. Then they were put in a situation designed to pressure them into consciously deciding to do it anyway.

We might debate the morality of even this, and in this context, I wouldn't have a great deal of respect for Ms. Hawking or Br. Campbell (or Libby...) but when faced with a decision in which there is no "good and moral" response, those making the decisions will nonetheless have to choose something. I pity those burdened with those decisions almost as much as I pity those who must suffer the consequences...
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Yeah, why isn't it automated? It's not like it's technically not feasible, even back in the 70's. A Rube Goldberg contraption could have done the trick.

I mean, it's all well and good to say that that's just the way it is, you can do that in the Fantasy genre. But doesn't it seem a bit, I don't know, a cheap and easy way out for the writers to go? Especially with all the encouragement they've given us to explore their creation with "pseudoscience" in mind?


I guess that when you say "pseudoscience" rather than "science," you open a door to things that will always seem more plausible to some than to others. I tend to grit my teeth at a lot of the pseudoscience they've used, but why let it spoil an excellently plotted story? It's the writer's job to make even implausible things seem reasonable, like everyone being related to everybody, or pushing a button every 108 minutes. I think they've done a decent job so far.

As far as why the failsafe couldn't be automated, with pseudoscience, they can make up any number of things that would fit, and we so far have nothing to go on, so I'll just toss out a couple of ideas. With some time, I'm sure I could spin out a few more. A good writer can probably spin out dozens. For example, if we can swallow the idea that there's really an Invisible Magnetic Thingy that can kill everybody if it's not "fed and watered" regularly, why can't we accept the presumption that a human being must be physically involved somehow in shutting it down? Both are fantastic presumptions; the plausibility of both is based merely in how the writers present them. If we don't like this idea, we must remember that we'd have laughed at the 108-minute-button idea in the middle of season 1, too. Today, it seems just fine. How it's presented is everything...

Or, while Locke probably used his "The island demanded a sacrifice," line as an excuse to absolve himself from the guilt of getting Boone killed, that may have been a way for the writers to place in our minds the idea that the island might really demand a sacrifice sometime, and that sacrifice is Desmond. I go back to the "Moriah Vineyards" label for Br. Campbell's winery, and consider the discussion he had with Desmond concerning its biblical reference. That whole story involved the giving of a sacrifice, and the sacrifice of the goat in place of Isaac (who would later be Jacob's father, BTW...) Perhaps the entire purpose of Br. Campbells winery was to get the sacrifice to the island, which was accomplished by first luring Desmond away from his then-fiance' and then making sure he met Penny...

In the end, the real answer would be that the writers needed to place Desmond into this "sacrificial lamb" role, and this is the means they've used to do it. Whether they do it plausibly or not depends on how well they present the whole explanation. So far, they've been brilliant at making the implausible into something we actually like. We'll see how they do with this one...

Kelvin: Electromagnetism, geologically unique. The incident... there was a leak. So now the charge builds up and every time we push the button it discharges it before it gets too big.

Desmond: Why make us do it... push the button? If we... if we can just...

Kelvin: Here's the real question, Desmundo... do you have the courage to take your finger out of the dam and blow the whole thing up, instead?

Perspective. What if Kelvin and Desmond are on the "reservoir" side of the "dam", instead of the "dry" side? Whatever energy is held at bay by the dam is leaking "out" of "our" side. In the black hole analogy, imagine that the Swan mechanism is "plugging" the black hole, preventing it from accumulating enough mass (energy) to collapse. Periodically, to reduce pressure on the "plug" they let a little bit of energy flow into the black hole. In the meantime, they have access to the energy that is drawn to the black hole (Ben's infinite energy source, controlled by the two hamsters, Kelvin and Radzinsky or Desmond.)

When Desmond activates the failsafe he allows the black hole to collapse through the event horizon. His consciousness (an electromagnetic phenomenon) is drawn toward the horizon along with the magnetic field. When the energy of the island-star collapses through the event horizon, the magnetic field is released or "blown". Desmond's consciousness is routed through the hole and the singularity it leads to and he becomes the "naked singularity", the remains of the collapse.

HV, Jane, Wes - do any one of you have an idea as to why Eko suddenly had an epiphany when he visited the Pearl and decided it was extremely important to keep pushing the button? What was in the Pearl that triggered this reaction? A test of faith? Does Brother Campbell's story of Abraham and his test of fath have to do with this also?
Desmond Well, Moriah was the mountain where Abraham was asked to kill Isaac. Not exactly the most festive local, is it?

Brother Campbell And yet God spared Isaac.

Desmond Well, one might argue that God need not asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place.

Brother Campbell Well then it wouldn't have been much of a test, would it brother? Perhaps you underestimate the value of sacrifice.


Perhaps the button pushing was also a test of faith. They didn't need to sacrifice their time spent pushing a button every 108 minutes, they could have just used the fail safe and got it over with, but then it wouldn't have been much of a test then. (Just paraphrasing what brother Campbell said to Des).

Hey Cin,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't visiting The Pearl basically reverse the positions of both Eko and John? Before the Pearl, Eko had doubt and John had faith, while after the Pearl John had doubts and Eko had Faith, right?

It's funny, but both of them reversed their positions after reviewing the same evidence. John took the evidence as "reason" for doubt (it's just an experiment), while Eko took the evidence as "reason" to believe (it's not without purpose.)

Since you brought up the dimension of Faith in a thread titled "Three Kings", maybe it might help to review another Three Kings story, especially since it's that time of year:

The Magi, the Three Wise Men or the Three Kings as they were known, came from the East to worship the birth of a Special Baby. The term "Magi" derives from the priestly caste of Zoroastrianism, one of the first monotheistic religions, whose primary prophet was Zarathustra. These priests paid particular attention to the stars, giving rise to astronomy and mathematics, as well as the term magic.

(Interesting, Boone accuses Locke of "quoting Nietzsche" in Deus Ex Machina, and one of Nietzsche's most famous books is told from the perspective of Zarathustra. Also Sprach Zarathustra is also the title theme for 2001: A Space Odysssey, where we get the quote: "My God! It's full of Stars!")

The Three Kings navigated by the Star of Bethlehem, and upon finding the Special Baby handed over three gifts with joyous praise. These three gifts where Frankincense, Myrrh and Gold. As ordinary treasures these are apt for a King - gold for its value, frankincense for perfume, and myrrh for anointing oil. Symbolically, they may prophesy kingship, priesthood and death/rebrith; alternatively, virtue, prayer and suffering/sacrfifice.

During their journey they come across Herod, who fears any rival to his throne and who has already killed some of his own sons out of paranoia. Hearing the prophesy of the Three Kings, Herod tries to trick them into Revealing the location of the Baby, but Magi thwart him by taking another route home having been warned in their dreams. Herod orders an infanticide - The Massacre of the Innocents - but Joseph, Mary and The Child had already fled to Egypt (possibly financing the expedition with the Three Gifts.)

Other tellings cast the Three Kings in a poor light, that their trek only endangered the Special Baby. Still others point to the "Star Prophecy" from Numbers: There shall come a star out of Jacob, and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel...


So, all this can also be seen as tying into our Lost story of a Special Baby, Aaron, and especially the Vision that Charlie had in Fire+Water. In this analogy, Ben is cast as Herod, set out to destroy any new life (while pretending to just the opposite). We've had several references to the stars, from the Lost Dipper to Claire's favorite song, Catch a Falling Star.

And in the timeline of the Losties, it's right around the Winter Solstice.

Perhaps the button pushing was also a test of faith. They didn't need to sacrifice their time spent pushing a button every 108 minutes, they could have just used the fail safe and got it over with, but then it wouldn't have been much of a test then. (Just paraphrasing what brother Campbell said to Des).

I think, as Wes models it, that DHARMA were in over their heads, as it were. The way I see it, the Swan mechanism kept the anomaly under semi-control, but from within the sphere of the anomaly. They knew that the failsafe was the only way to end the threat, but they had to train someone, to convince them that their effort was an heroic one, in order for that person to sacrifice themselves by activating the failsafe. Morally, I think Hanso/DHARMA didn't have the courage (or the lack thereof) to ask someone to make this sacrifice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't visiting The Pearl basically reverse the positions of both Eko and John? Before the Pearl, Eko had doubt and John had faith, while after the Pearl John had doubts and Eko had Faith, right?

This is interesting if you imagine the conundrum I described above. Locke, confronted by the "truth" that DHARMA was training that Hatchies responds with his classic rebellion against authority. Eko, who really wanted to do what was right, so much so that he fancied himself a sort of priest, was happy to "take up the gun", like he did with Yemi, to assume the protector role.

It's also interesting that both Locke and Eko became captivated by the button after viewing an orientation film, while ironic that the film that captivated Eko alienated Locke.

It's also interesting that both Locke and Eko became captivated by the button after viewing an orientation film, while ironic that the film that captivated Eko alienated Locke.
Exactly! So what was it in that film that made Eko think it was more important than ever to push that button. He made it sound like it had to do with believing in something, more faith-driven than fate-driven, if that makes sense.

Exactly! So what was it in that film that made Eko think it was more important than ever to push that button. He made it sound like it had to do with believing in something, more faith-driven than fate-driven, if that makes sense.

Cin, I wonder if Eko's dreams have a significant role in his response to the Pearl video. After all, his dreams - which featured Yemi - led him to find the Pearl in the first place. Just the fact that the Pearl existed at all must have really had an impact on Eko. And then, to find out that the Button pushing wasn't inherently meaningless, but part of a larger Plan or Design, something so important that it had to be monitored constantly - well, that must have just sealed the deal in "confirming" Eko's faith.

hv, I love the observation that Locke rebelled against authority upon viewing the Pearl video. I mean, here's a guy who's been manipulated all his life, so it seems, so his relationship with other people has always been a bit precarious. As wes put it, he's been "alienated". He finally finds some purpose and connection on the Island, and begins forming a family. It all starts to fall apart with The Button, though, and then to find out The Button is part of a human-designed "experiment" (rather than some Island-conceived "holy purpose"), well no wonder he wanted to abandon the project.

The way I see it, the Swan mechanism kept the anomaly under semi-control, but from within the sphere of the anomaly. They knew that the failsafe was the only way to end the threat, but they had to train someone, to convince them that their effort was an heroic one, in order for that person to sacrifice themselves by activating the failsafe. Morally, I think Hanso/DHARMA didn't have the courage (or the lack thereof) to ask someone to make this sacrifice.

I really like your take on this, hv. I know it's speculation, but I wonder if the Anomaly might have been conceived by the writers as something akin to this (http://home3.inet.tele.dk/hitower/vortex.htm) - an electromagnetic vortex, as I believe either you or Cin suggested. If Dharma wanted to replicate those experiments without interference from the government, The Island would have seemed a perfect place to "have some privacy", in the hope of creating a "free energy" source as a boon to humanity.

I think, as Wes models it, that DHARMA were in over their heads, as it were. The way I see it, the Swan mechanism kept the anomaly under semi-control, but from within the sphere of the anomaly. They knew that the failsafe was the only way to end the threat, but they had to train someone, to convince them that their effort was an heroic one, in order for that person to sacrifice themselves by activating the failsafe. Morally, I think Hanso/DHARMA didn't have the courage (or the lack thereof) to ask someone to make this sacrifice.


It occurs to me as I reread this that the image we've been given of the Dharma initiative has steadily declined over time. That is, it first appeared to be something powerful and influential, then in Ben's flashbacks as maybe more of just a scientific hippie commune, then in the Orchid Video as outright incompetent. If your speculation is correct, we can add indecisive and cowardly to the list...

Wes,

I wonder if DHARMA just misinterpreted what they observed, and then later realised that they had misunderstood? Meanwhile, Widmore and/or Paik could have come to some independent conclusions about what DHARMA had discovered, and then engineered the Purge in order to assume some kind of control over the opportunity they saw.

A friend of mine recently pointed out that the human mind is designed to see patterns. In some circumstances, the mind sees patterns where there are none. (He was commenting on LOST theorists, gently including me :rolleyes: ) Anyway, the point being is that even scientists leap to conclusions sometimes. The impact of science and technology is not often completely understood when it is put to use.

I wonder if DHARMA just misinterpreted what they observed, and then later realised that they had misunderstood? Meanwhile, Widmore and/or Paik could have come to some independent conclusions about what DHARMA had discovered, and then engineered the Purge in order to assume some kind of control over the opportunity they saw.


It certainly seems reasonable that they didn't fully realize what they were doing. That could be the cause of the incident. And I like the idea of others seeing things differently and engineering the purge, especially since I'll have suggested that Widmore did that very thing in my earlier postings in this thread. My original motive for him would have been greed, but that's just a guess to fill in some of the space between the puzzle pieces. Your suggestion fills in the space just as neatly.
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A friend of mine recently pointed out that the human mind is designed to see patterns. In some circumstances, the mind sees patterns where there are none. (He was commenting on LOST theorists, gently including me :rolleyes: ) Anyway, the point being is that even scientists leap to conclusions sometimes. The impact of science and technology is not often completely understood when it is put to use.

I've read before of our ability to see patterns; it's one of the reasons that the ancients created constellation-pictures from the stars in the sky. It's also a (sometimes stern) warning in texts that teach the basics of designing experiments. It's because we also have this great ability to "see" evidence of either straight lines or sine waves in random data. (One of the most embarrassing examples of this was the "map" of Martian "canals" drawn up by Percival Lowell, early last century.) In any case, I think you know of the low opinion I have of the Dharma scientists, so your idea makes perfect sense to me.

I think that the Lost writers exploit this pattern-matching tendency by adding in vague references to everything imaginable, to occupy those who really really want to find patterns. And yet there will likely be a few connections that will eventually pan out...
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Here's the summary I'd promised of the "major reveals" that the writers would have to gradually disclose, should the theory presented in this thread turn out to be correct. All of them have already been described in earlier postings, so this does not represent any real additions to the theory. What they do is back what's probably my major premise; that the full mysteries of the story will have to be able to be disclosed in a small number of short reveals, and that any comprehensive theory that can't be expressed in a set of short reveals is probably impractical for television. With only 48 episodes to go, I'm a little worried that this list is even too long, but I'm gratified that there turned out to be 13 of them. It's not one of "the" numbers, but it's a good one to describe the unlucky people in the storyline...

1) The Island is alive; it can partly read minds and clearly read intense feelings.
(It probably includes multiple intelligences. Includes Jacob, the whisperers)

2) The Island can control and form matter.
(This explains its ability to heal, create apparitions including the smoke monster, it is the basis for "the box" that creates things which Ben described to Locke, and is responsible for the strange (impossible) appearances of physical things, like the Nigerian plane and gun case found by Kate and Sawyer. Other than the smoke monster, which the island creates for its own purposes, everything that "appeared" were things that people would have thought about with intense feelings, consistent with Ben's description of "the box" to Locke.)

3) There are three rich and powerful people with three big agendas of their own that have been operating in the background of the story. They represent the past, present, and intended future controllers of the island. These are Hanso, Widmore, and Paik. (The three Kings.)

4) Flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island by Hanso. (It was accidentally wrecked there) Intent was to bring a specially selected group of people who can match and even exceed Ben's rapport with Jacob/the island, to undermine him. (An unusually large number of the Losties were _given_ tickets for this specific flight. Claire was told she couldn't even take another flight.) Faked undersea crash footage was created as a cover, but no real undersea crash exists.

5) The 815'ers do not know they were chosen, and were intended to have been manipulated by Libby (and maybe other planted passengers!) to do things to undermine Ben. But this plan fell apart with the crash of the aircraft and the murder of Libby.

6) Many in Oceanic Airlines were involved in the conspiracy. This includes the cockpit crew, possibly the ticket agent who finally allowed Jack on the flight, or someone in the background who signalled the approval to her. The uncovering of this involvement is likely the reason Oceanic stopped all flights for a long time. (This kind of stoppage is unprtecedented. Ordinarily, flights will continue following the loss of an aircraft.)

7) Different people have different levels of rapport with the island. Locke and Eko regularly saw dreams and visions, which were ways that it communicated with them. Those who saw apparitions saw people who they likely felt very strongly about.

8) Walt has such a close rapport that he didn't even need to be on the island to cause the exotic bird to be created,.

9) The purge was orchestrated by Widmore, who now (barely) controls the island through Ben, effectively grasping the island from Hanso.

10) The freighter is backed by Paik, with the original intention of locating and taking the island from Widmore. It now also includes the objective of rescuing Sun, Paik's daughter.

11) The real purpose of the Swan Hatch was to eventually badger someone into turning the failsafe. (isolation from others, being cooped up indoors under the supposed threat of quarrantine, being injected with drugs (supposed vaccines), regular sounding of alarm resulting in sleep deprivation)

12) The one who turns the failsafe ends up reliving events of his life over and over out of sequence, able to make small changes. There can be memories of previous iterations after turning the failsafe, but the out-of-order life events have been happening before and after the failsafe event.

13) Because the one who was eventually coerced into turning the failsafe might eventually regret doing so and refuse in a later "iterration," a number of "guides" were appointed, to make sure that he kept making the same decision. These included Libby, Ms. Hawking, and Br. Campbell. All were working for Hanso, who created the failsafe in the first place.

11) The real purpose of the Swan Hatch was to eventually badger someone into turning the failsafe. (isolation from others, being cooped up indoors under the supposed threat of quarrantine, being injected with drugs (supposed vaccines), regular sounding of alarm resulting in sleep deprivation)

I'm totally on-board with this interpretation. It simply makes sense.

12) The one who turns the failsafe ends up reliving events of his life over and over out of sequence, able to make small changes. There can be memories of previous iterations after turning the failsafe, but the out-of-order life events have been happening before and after the failsafe event.

This makes sense with what we have seen so far of Desmond's experiences.

13) Because the one who was eventually coerced into turning the failsafe might eventually regret doing so and refuse in a later "iterration," a number of "guides" were appointed, to make sure that he kept making the same decision. These included Libby, Ms. Hawking, and Br. Campbell. All were working for Hanso, who created the failsafe in the first place.

But what then do you suppose was the purpose of the system? If guides are in place to ensure that the subject doesn't change certain events, are there events that the subject is supposed to change? It seems like Desmond became a sort of manipulator of events, especially in leading Jack to the island. Was his planting of the idea of the island/time travel with Donovan part of this design?

But what then do you suppose was the purpose of the system? If guides are in place to ensure that the subject doesn't change certain events, are there events that the subject is supposed to change? It seems like Desmond became a sort of manipulator of events, especially in leading Jack to the island. Was his planting of the idea of the island/time travel with Donovan part of this design?

By my reckoning, each of the Three Kings is busy making his share of mistakes, and having to deal with them. Or put another way, there's a three-sided chess game going on in which some of the pawns have minds of their own, and the Three Kings have to deal both with each others' moves _and_ the fact that the playing pieces are now starting to move around on their own...

Desmond is a piece that's been yanked around by both Widmore and Hanso. He was the "sacrificial animal," symbolically referred to by the wine label "Moriah Vineyards," who could finally get the failsafe activated. He was a sacrificial animal because he'd endure the consequences of turning the failsafe, though in doing so, would save the world. Now, TPTB said that Ms. Hawking's "Every single one of us is dead" speech referred to the entire world, so getting Desmond into the Swan Hatch to fix the earlier screw-up by Hanso/Dharma was hugely important. But in being there, he stepped on Hanso's other plan...

My theory in the above postings suggests that flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island by Hanso, because they'd been able to get tickets on that flight to a large number of people capable of Ben's style of rapport with the island. This undermining of Ben would be the first step in Hanso's getting the island back. Unfortunately, Hanso's Failsafe Star Pupil (Desmond) messed up and crashed the plane carrying Hanso's kidnap victims who could help him take the island. And it gets worse. Michael, who was necessary to bring Hanso's Ultra Star Pupil (Walt), ended up murdering Libby, who was Hanso's agent who'd help manipulate the Losties to be able to undermine Ben. There are a lot of names tossed around in that sentence, but essentially, Hanso's most important pawns are moving around on their own and causing him the most trouble, and foiling his agenda. He finally got the failsafe activated, but everything beyond that has turned to garbage.

I think that the fact that Desmond has the chance to change certain elements of his past have Hanso's people changing their underwear every 15 minutes, because the next time he gets to relive some of those earlier events, he might just decide not to leave Penny, and then everyone's screwed. So Hanso's people are guiding Des to keep him on track. I'm suspecting that Ms. Hawking's discourse on "course correction" is simply the writers' way of saying that Desmond can only make little changes that are convenient for them, the writers. But he can't go using his knowledge of the "future" to change the future in radical ways that should be expected but are not convenient to the writers. IOW, Desmond's ability to change things is crucial to the story, but they've put huge-but-arbitrary limits on his ability to change things, so that we can't take that fact to its logical conclusion and complain that Desmond oughta be doing something more significant with his knowledge, at least _one_ time around. Without having to give us any details, the writers have simply said "No he won't, no he can't, and it's because we're the writers, that's why..."

Desmond's conversation with Donovan may possibly have upcoming significance in the rest of the story, but even if it doesn't, it's already been used to do all of the following:

1) It tossed out the idea to the audience that Desmond might actually be going back and reliving some of his life's events over and over.

2) The idea had to be done through conversation so as to involve actual people, as is normally done in good storytelling, yet had to be done off-island, so that no one on the island is likely to have any inkling yet as to what's really hapening to Desmond. (I've noticed that the writers see little difference between The Losties and mushrooms; they keep dumping bulls%&t on them and they keep them in the dark...)

3) The incident with the sports event they were watching on television showed (though only to Desmond) that he _did_ really have the ability to see the future.

4) The incident with the cricket bat showed that Desmond could in fact change things from how he remembered them, so that the events as he'd experienced weren't all cast in concrete.

5) The conversation was done in such a way as to leave Desmond looking like something between a flustered fool and a major moron, and since the writers have been following the dictum that No Ultimate Good Ever Comes To Desmond, they've maintained their perfect record.

There are a lot of names tossed around in that sentence, but essentially, Hanso's most important pawns are moving around on their own and causing him the most trouble, and foiling his agenda. He finally got the failsafe activated, but everything beyond that has turned to garbage.

Nice synopsis, wes. What do you think of the idea that ultimately, the message of LOST is going to revolve around the idea that anyone attempting to manipulate "the magic inside the box", or knowledge of the future, is going to have their plans go awry?

Determinism seems to follow a very deliberate entropic course towards death. While the arrow of time also follows that same entropic course, it is in the nature of the human mind to imagine the future based on past and present experiences. To meddle with that nature seems to violate the essential possibility of being human. We look toward the unknown and fill it with our hopes and dreams, and thus we are human.

The pawns have revolted. They have ideas of their own, destinies to forge, and the Three Kings can do nothing to stop them. The pawns have taken over the playing field, breaking their chains through the Fire of Love and the Water of Faith... Faith in each other. That is why the Three Kings lose... because they are against one another.

There is a Fourth. With a unique... agenda. The Conspiracy of Love is vast and far-reaching. What sacrifices have been made...

An ugly duckling, transformed into a Swan...

light reflected off the mirror of the heart...

How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

I like the sounds of this conspiracy of love.
100%


How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?


Left, right, right, right, up, down, up, down, down.

Nice synopsis, wes. What do you think of the idea that ultimately, the message of LOST is going to revolve around the idea that anyone attempting to manipulate "the magic inside the box", or knowledge of the future, is going to have their plans go awry?

Determinism seems to follow a very deliberate entropic course towards death. While the arrow of time also follows that same entropic course, it is in the nature of the human mind to imagine the future based on past and present experiences. To meddle with that nature seems to violate the essential possibility of being human. We look toward the unknown and fill it with our hopes and dreams, and thus we are human.

I'm sure that after a story this huge, the writers will end up making some sort of "statement" about life, the universe, and everything...

Your suggestion may be part of it, but this is one of those things that's totally flexible according to the writers' discretion. We've seen evidence of Dharma screw-ups, we've seen evidence of corporate greed, and by my theory, we see an island (maybe perhaps an entire planet?) that has a will of its own and may have something to say. These can all tie into that ultimate "statement."

Your comments about meddling with nature may just fit very well into that context.

I'm sure that after a story this huge, the writers will end up making some sort of "statement" about life, the universe, and everything...

How many roads must a man walk down? Hmm, that would work! Otherwise the psychologists and psychiatrists are going to be pretty angry indeed...

:)

Your suggestion may be part of it, but this is one of those things that's totally flexible according to the writers' discretion. We've seen evidence of Dharma screw-ups, we've seen evidence of corporate greed, and by my theory, we see an island (maybe perhaps an entire planet?) that has a will of its own and may have something to say. These can all tie into that ultimate "statement."

An Island with a Will, or at least a consciousness. Yes, I wonder what She has to say about all this...

JackSawyer, I think the Conspiracy of Love involves, at the very least, Christian, Nadia, Cassidy, and Campbell. Not sure about Liam just yet.

I'm serious about the Kobayashi Maru, by the way. How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

By not playing. Which, if I interpret your earlier statements the way you intended them jane, means you think the Lostaways are doing just that; Not playing the game?

6) Many in Oceanic Airlines were involved in the conspiracy. This includes the cockpit crew,

Apologies if this is too off-topic but your comment about the cockpit crew ties in with something I realised last night whilst watching a dodgy 70s airplane disaster movie on tv. Shouldn’t there have been THREE people in the cockpit when it was discovered by Jack, Kate and Charlie - a pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. There were only two people in there. So where did the missing third person go?!

Either he’d already escaped through the open cockpit window - in which case he could still be out there somewhere. Or he’s really the corpse in the trees since it definately wasn’t the character we’d been introduced to previously as the pilot (different hair length, for one). Which means the pilot is still out there.

Apologies if this is too off-topic but your comment about the cockpit crew ties in with something I realised last night whilst watching a dodgy 70s airplane disaster movie on tv. Shouldn’t there have been THREE people in the cockpit when it was discovered by Jack, Kate and Charlie - a pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. There were only two people in there. So where did the missing third person go?!

Either he’d already escaped through the open cockpit window - in which case he could still be out there somewhere. Or he’s really the corpse in the trees since it definately wasn’t the character we’d been introduced to previously as the pilot (different hair length, for one). Which means the pilot is still out there.

That could very well be; while there are some very modern aircraft that do without the flight engineer (I think that the later 767's are an example...) I think that most still do have three in the cockpit. A missing cockpit crew member would be really interesting. Does anybody remember what model of aircraft flight 815 was supposed to be?

According to lostpedia, it’s a Boeing 777.

And apparently, that model is too large to have been able to use Gate 23 at Sydney Airport. Make of that what you will!

Weirdly, the only time a Boeing 777 has ever crashed happened just last week at London’s Heathrow Airport - no fatalities, thankfully.

How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

By not playing. Which, if I interpret your earlier statements the way you intended them jane, means you think the Lostaways are doing just that; Not playing the game?

HV, you are delinquent in your Star Trek history, and you've got my meaning about as backwards as it can get. Go watch Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan again, Karl.

Yeesh.

HV, you are delinquent in your Star Trek history, and you've got my meaning about as backwards as it can get. Go watch Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan again, Karl.

Yeesh.

LOL! Sorry. I've watched enough Star Trek, but I don't retain it... Just not my thing, I guess.

"how we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life."

So, if it is a no-win situation, then are you suggesting that it is no-win for the three kings, the Lostaways, or both?

According to lostpedia, it’s a Boeing 777.

And apparently, that model is too large to have been able to use Gate 23 at Sydney Airport. Make of that what you will!

Weirdly, the only time a Boeing 777 has ever crashed happened just last week at London’s Heathrow Airport - no fatalities, thankfully.

According to Wikipedia, that font of not-necessarily-reliable knowledge, the 777 has 6 models, all with a cockpit crew of two. So Boeing retained their 767 design philosophy of eliminating the flight engineer.

Of course, if the writers did as careful research on cockpit crews as they did on Gate 23 at Sydney, I guess anything's still possible...:biggrin:

According to lostpedia, it’s a Boeing 777.
Hildy: 777? Interesting symbolism...

Locke: Sounds like a piss-poor captain.

Only one person has ever beaten the Kobayashi Maru. Who was he and how did he do it? Here's a clue. It took him 3 iterations to figure it out. Locke told us the gist of the solution in Enter 77. How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

HV - yes, I'm sure that everyone, including the Losties and the 3 Kings, is in a version of the Kobayashi Maru, which is a metaphor for the show, which is a metaphor for our lives, which is a metaphor for our world, which is a metaphor for the Universe.

Only one person has ever beaten the Kobayashi Maru. Who was he and how did he do it? Here's a clue. It took him 3 iterations to figure it out. Locke told us the gist of the solution in Enter 77. How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

HV - yes, I'm sure that everyone, including the Losties and the 3 Kings, is in a version of the Kobayashi Maru, which is a metaphor for the show, which is a metaphor for our lives, which is a metaphor for our world, which is a metaphor for the Universe.
Captain Kirk...by cheating...specifically by reprogramming the simulator.

Not a Trekkie, but I did some quick LOST homework.;)

So, was that what DHARMA was trying to do, to reprogram reality, to cheat, in order to defeat the doom predicted by Valenzetti?

Is the island then a zone of this reprogrammed reality?

I've posted this kind of info elsewhere, but not in this thread, where it probably belongs.

As has been described ad nauseam in earlier posts, I believe that Paik is behind the freighter that's come to the island. With Ben's "every living thing on this island is dead" speech, I think we have good reason to believe that Ben knows exactly who's behind the freighter and the amount of danger he's in. This puts Sun in great danger of being taken hostage, as she's Paik's daughter.

I believe we've already seen evidence of this with the failed abduction of the pregnant women in the S3 finale. It's likely that Ben _really_ wanted the one woman that he knew was pregnant, Sun, and that the rest of the operation was an incidental-but-useful sideline. Since Ben tends to play several moves ahead of everyone else, it would be his style to want to have Sun as a hostage before revealing to his group that they were in danger from Paik. This would explain why his people didn't know the main purpose behind the abduction plan.

Now that that's failed, I think that Sun is still in danger, and is likely to be captured, some time in S4. Moving now into complete no-evidence-whatsoever speculation, it's easy to guess why only certain people will get off the island.

The Oceanic 6 have been revealed to be Jack, Kate, Sun, Jin, Sayid, and Hurley. It's a given that Sun and Jin would be taken. It's also possible that Paik's people truly do intend to kill everyone on the island. Yet if Sun is taken as a hostage, they may just negotiate with some of the Losties for their help. After all, Paik is not a forgiving man, and if their operation got the Big Boss' daughter killed, their own plans for the future would likely need to be cut short. Jack would be in a position to bargain. Since a "cover story" to explain the reappearance of Sun and Jin would have to be created anyway, it's possible that a few more might be able to "tag along" with them.

While it's hard to imagine Jack abandoning everyone else on the island, it's possible his guilt might be temporarily assuaged if his rescue action were to at least spare the lives of those left behind, with the plan that he'd eventually locate the island and rescue everyone else someday. If he were unable to locate the island, he'd be wracked with guilt that he'd left those behind on the island, and in a much worse situation than they were in before he called in the freighties. (We'll presume here that Paik's people are not model landlords...) He'd also be wracked with "survivor's guilt," because he got free and they didn't, and might then want to go back, to calm that guilt.

That being said, we might guess that those taken in addition to Sun and Jin might be those who rescued Sun. Sayid, the one with military experience, is a natural. Jack, the one with the plan, is also a natural, especially since he's likely to be written to oppose Locke, who'd be likely to want to stay on the island at all costs. Kate would be a good person to take from the island for dramatic purposes contrasted against Jack, and Hurley, well, he seems to be in the story to make it interesting rather than to move the plot, so the writers see better use for him to make the off-island part of the story more interesting. (I don't think at this point that the on-island part will be lacking in that department without Hurley's help...)

Since Ben tends to play several moves ahead of everyone else, it would be his style to want to have Sun as a hostage before revealing to his group that they were in danger from Paik.

I think you're spot-on about this, wes. Ben does seem to know an awful lot about the motives of the freighter-folk. I'm very curious about Ben's methods. How does he stay so far ahead? What motivates him to endure beatings to further his cause?

I know this is more along the lines of mysticism, which your theory usually avoids, but I wonder if Ben might be able to access supernormal perceptual states known as Siddhis (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/siddhi.html)?

During the days of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, a certain Sadhu approached him and showed two Siddhis: one was that he could roam about without being seen by anybody. The other was that light emanated from portions of his body when he walked.
This man, after some time, began misusing his power, entering the apartment of a lady unseen, fell in love with her and LOST his two powers.

Is this why Ben didn't heal as he expected to after surgery (or, why he needed the surgery to begin with)? Siddhis cover a wide range of abilities, many of them seeming to relate to the paranormal events on LOST.

Or, perhaps Ben is just a really good chess player. :rolleyes:

I think you're spot-on about this, wes. Ben does seem to know an awful lot about the motives of the freighter-folk. I'm very curious about Ben's methods. How does he stay so far ahead? What motivates him to endure beatings to further his cause?


Well now, remember that this is the Three Kings thread which I firmly embrace at the moment. If, as I believe, Widmore is backing Ben, then Widmore will have fully informed Ben as to the intents and machinations of the other two Kings. At least as far as Widmore and his spies are able to learn them.

So Ben will likely have known that Paik is trying to find out where the island is and that Hanso wants to regain control of the island. He'd know that Paik is ruthless and that his people are to be feared. And he'd likely know that Paik has one or more vessels out searching for him. Since my theory predicts that Paik knew about the plan to bring flight 815 to the island, I'd suspect Widmore knew too, (Cindy was Widmore's agent on the flight...) so Ben would have known that visitors were on the way, though the breakup of the aircraft would have been a surprise.

As to Ben's willingness to endure beatings, I suspect that Ben truly does believe that his people are the "good guys," and there is a cause that Ben is willing to die for. We just don't know what it is yet. I don't think that that cause involves Widmore. Rather, Ben and company are a group of idealists who are working toward some cause that they consider very noble and important. It's important enough to them that they're not only willing to die for it but they're also willing to sacrifice innocent and unsuspecting individuals. This does not make them look "good" to the impartial observer (like us, f'rinstance...) but if the human consequences of their failure would be so much greater than the suffering they've inflicted on others, they might easily justify it to themselves.

Widmore, OTOH, is likely to just want to control the island so he can exploit it. He probably finances this group of idealists in return for some work they do for him. The remainder of their time is spent pursuing whatever invisible goal it is that they're following...

I suspect that those who remain on the island will be led by Locke, who's already somewhat sympathetic with Ben's Gang. This will make it easier for the remaining Losties to eventually forge an uneasy alliance with Ben's people, when it becomes clear that Paik and the freighter people are their common enemy.

So, was that what DHARMA was trying to do, to reprogram reality, to cheat, in order to defeat the doom predicted by Valenzetti?

Is the island then a zone of this reprogrammed reality?

Change just one constant in the equation, and the result of the equation changes. I think Desmond is the man for the job, seeing that he's fractured enough to enter "Minkowski" space without being determined by it. But I wonder if Desmond is really the way out. Hawking seemed to think that pushing the button was his greatest deed.

The only other way to cheat is to change the initial parameters of the program. I think that's what we see with Christian, Nadia, Cassidy, and so on. They are part of a Conspiracy of Love.

Through his actual deeds, Spock demonstrates a third solution. He sacrifices himself to save everyone else, bombarded by deadly radiation as he fixed a core component. Behind an impenetrable wall of glass, he says goodbye to Kirk:

BONES: Don't! You'll flood the whole compartment...

KIRK: He'll die -

SCOTTY: Sir! He's dead already.

BONES: It's too late.

KIRK: Spock! Spock!

SPOCK: Ship - out of danger?

KIRK: Yes -

SPOCK: Do not grieve, Admiral - it is logical: the needs of the many outweigh -

KIRK: the needs of the few...

SPOCK: Or the One. I never took the Kobayashi Maru test - until now. What do you think of my solution?

KIRK: Spock...

SPOCK: I have been - and always will be - your friend...Live. Long. And. Prosper.

KIRK: No....


The Island is a Nexus. Not only is it a zone of "reprogrammed reality", I think it's the Hub from where the entire Universe can be altered.

Although parity is conserved in electromagnetism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism), strong interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interactions) and gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity), it turns out to be violated in weak interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_interactions). The Standard Model incorporates parity violation by expressing the weak interaction as a chiral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28physics%29) gauge interaction. Only the left-handed components of particles and right-handed components of antiparticles participate in weak interactions in the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model). This implies that parity is not a symmetry of our universe, unless a hidden mirror sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter) exists in which parity is violated in the opposite way.

Well now, remember that this is the Three Kings thread which I firmly embrace at the moment. If, as I believe, Widmore is backing Ben, then Widmore will have fully informed Ben as to the intents and machinations of the other two Kings. At least as far as Widmore and his spies are able to learn them.

Occam's Razor at work. Wes, thanks. I tend to wander off into esoterica, but your grounded logic always seems to bring me home. After all it was Penny herself that said you could always find someone if you had enough money. Mr. Widmore could probably afford to find a great many someones...

Through his actual deeds, Spock demonstrates a third solution. He sacrifices himself to save everyone else, bombarded by deadly radiation as he fixed a core component. Behind an impenetrable wall of glass, he says goodbye to Kirk:

Reminds me of Charlie's solution. Like you said, in one way or another, each of the Lostaways has to solve the Kobayashi Maru conundrum.

Although parity is conserved in electromagnetism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism), strong interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interactions) and gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity), it turns out to be violated in weak interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_interactions). The Standard Model incorporates parity violation by expressing the weak interaction as a chiral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28physics%29) gauge interaction. Only the left-handed components of particles and right-handed components of antiparticles participate in weak interactions in the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model). This implies that parity is not a symmetry of our universe, unless a hidden mirror sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter) exists in which parity is violated in the opposite way.

And the island is that "hidden mirror sector", that place of reversed chirality. I wonder how DNA strands, chiral three-dimensional objects, are affected by this reversal?

I've had the idea too that Alvar, Charles and P(first name?) all know about the island... ii seems though that Alvar is the only one who knows or knew where it was.

Excellent perspective on the 3 Kings Wes. Wow, I really enjoyed that.

You've read most my comic book/Alien theories Wes, so you know I'm with you on the King's approach. I really like the past to future kings analysis. I think that's spot on. Hanso in the past, Widmore now and Paik at the doorstep.

I've read (unfortunately) the Eggtown spoiler. There's something in there I'd like to discuss with you without having to spoiler font. I'll pm you on this.

Thanks for updating the thread Wes. Me and the wife dig it.
Eric.

P.S "All I can add, is that I hope and pray all the secrecy about the Island's location, and some people's desire to find it is because there is alien technology/artifacts on the Island. I dont want to start a discussion on this. I just hope that's the reason behind Smoky and the time distortion/EM anomaly and why people want to find or control the Island."

Occam's Razor at work. Wes, thanks. I tend to wander off into esoterica, but your grounded logic always seems to bring me home. After all it was Penny herself that said you could always find someone if you had enough money. Mr. Widmore could probably afford to find a great many someones...


Thanks very much. Consider also that Widmore had an additional advantage that no one else did when it came to locating the island.

We saw in TLE that both Widmore and Paik were involved in creating the Dharma complex and infrastructure on the island. This is where both would learn about it. As part of doing the work, they'd each have had people on the island, and they'd have reported to their bosses on some of the "miraculous" happenings there.

Widmore's extra advantage is that he was in the construction business, and so would have had huge numbers of his people there, actually building things. He'd have had to move large amounts of construction equipment to and from the island, and in general, would have had lots of opportunities to gather data on just where the island was.

Paik on the other hand, may have been involved more in building much of the heavy machinery that was used on the island. Most of Paik's work would likely have been done "back home," with only a few observers and field engineers actually being on the island to make sure everything was installed and working properly. He'd have known that something special was there, but had much less opportunity to actually locate the island.

It would all be analagous to the construction of a large building. The construction contractor would have dozens or hundreds of his people all over the place. The air conditioning system would be built at the factory, and there might be one or two people from that company present to make sure it was installed properly. This might be analagous to the roles played by Widmore (construction) and Paik (Heavy Industries.)

Reminds me of Charlie's solution. Like you said, in one way or another, each of the Lostaways has to solve the Kobayashi Maru conundrum.

Yes, very much so.


And the island is that "hidden mirror sector", that place of reversed chirality. I wonder how DNA strands, chiral three-dimensional objects, are affected by this reversal?

Almost. The Island is the intersection of "our" section and the "mirror" sector. As to how the DNA is affected, I wonder if the interaction between Charlie and Mikhail is metaphorically apt.
100%
Wes, we're starting to see the importance of the daughters in the Three Kings story. Penny seems a part of Widmore's plans, and Sun may be a part of Paik's plans. If Hanso has a daughter in play, who might she be? Karen DeGroot?

Wes,

I was thinking about this last night: What do you think of the idea that Ben really is one of the "good guys", that is that he and the Others are the remnants of the Hanso Foundation on the island? What if Widmore was able to take over DHARMA such that he controlled the island. When DHARMA/Widmore was purged, Charles Widmore lost his connection/access to the island. I don't think he had complete control over DHARMA, but people like Kelvin and Mikhail seem more like Widmore hires than Hanso...

The schism within the Others seems to echo that of Hanso's organization (e.g., the Mittelos/Mittelwerk thing).

Definately wouldn't surprise me if Ben turned out to actually be one of the "good guys".

H x

Wes,

I was thinking about this last night: What do you think of the idea that Ben really is one of the "good guys", that is that he and the Others are the remnants of the Hanso Foundation on the island? What if Widmore was able to take over DHARMA such that he controlled the island. When DHARMA/Widmore was purged, Charles Widmore lost his connection/access to the island. I don't think he had complete control over DHARMA, but people like Kelvin and Mikhail seem more like Widmore hires than Hanso...

The schism within the Others seems to echo that of Hanso's organization (e.g., the Mittelos/Mittelwerk thing).

That's an interesting twist. One more wheel within the wheels, as it were.

As far as Ben being one of the good guys, I guess we have to define the term. So many television shows portray things in perfectly stark black and white; someone is either "good" or "bad." In reality, the lines are more blurred; most everyone sees themselves as the good guy, based on their own particular motivations. In fact, I remember once reading a quote by 1920's mobster Al Capone, after he'd been sent to prison. This viscious, bloody thug was actually surprised and hurt that he'd been treated so "unfairly," after he'd worked so hard to give the people what they wanted. This man lived in a very different world than the rest of us...

I think that Ben's "we're the good guys" comment might simply point to the fact that Ben has motivations for his actions that seem perfectly good and noble to him. That's a suggestion of a well-plotted villain. Too many "comic book" style villains either seem to wake up every morning wondering what "evil" they can perform today, or at best have some simple "score to settle" with the world, suggesting the simple formula that anger + insanity = villain. But when the writers give us a vilain with real, understandable motivations, who thinks with as much complexity as we do, but not _like_ we do, well, that can make for very memorable character.

The character can become even more memorable if Ben's people are doing something that's truly crucial to the vast majority of humanity, but in a way that hurts a small minority of it. Suddenly, the writers create a moral conflict that we can't resolve with our simple good-guy/bad-guy classifications, and that can make for an interesting story.

As far as who's in control of the island right now is concerned, I suspect that this might be able to be modified, depending on what yet-unrevealed bits of backstory we might work out. The arrangement as I'd worked it out was done in the way that seemed simplest to me, given what we've seen, but that's not always how stories work out.

For example, the information Penny has been able to get about the island (especially her being immediately available when Charlie shut down the jamming) is explained most simply if her father is the one who's been most recently working with the people of the island. And the one most able to select the people to "guide" onto flight 815 because they would be most likely be able to commune with the island as Ben does would be Hanso, the one who'd had the most organized research done on the island and understands it best.

But by merely adding in a few more complicating factors, I've no doubt that the writers could turn this around if they wanted to. In fact, I'd imagine that the writers might also have more than one way to deal with various plotlines, in the event that an actor becomes ill, or dies, (or has too many DUI convictions...:biggrin:) I've read that the series "Babylon 5," which was also a super-complex serialized adventure-mystery (and in which the actress who plays Rousseau played a _very_ different character!!) had numerous secondary "trap doors" that could allow any character to be written out of the story, just in case some real-life disaster occurrred. I'd suspect that TPTB have taken out similar precautions. The point here is that there are probably a number of "plan B" plotlines, and extra twists that _are_ planned. So many things can probably be turned on their heads, and even working as best we can with the clues we have, we can easily be surprised.

The character can become even more memorable if Ben's people are doing something that's truly crucial to the vast majority of humanity, but in a way that hurts a small minority of it. Suddenly, the writers create a moral conflict that we can't resolve with our simple good-guy/bad-guy classifications, and that can make for an interesting story.

That's pretty much where I was going with that, based on the Thomas Mittelwerk character from the first ARG. He had made a speech about his genetically engineered virus or somesuch that was going to sort of weed out the population... For the better, of course. :rolleyes:

That's pretty much where I was going with that, based on the Thomas Mittelwerk character from the first ARG. He had made a speech about his genetically engineered virus or somesuch that was going to sort of weed out the population... For the better, of course. :rolleyes:

That's a fine example of where the writers could create the kind of moral conflict I was talking about. In much of TV, they package it all in a neatly good vs. bad story, with no question about who's on what side.

But the writers could make things a lot more ambiguous. For example, suppose the world really _would_ end without Mittelwerk's machinations? Suppose, by killing 30% of humanity, he was saving the other 70%, because by doing nothing, everyone would die? There's no good answer to that, though if the situation were such that there were really only those two choices, all future generations would then owe their lives to Mitttelwerk, while those he infected would regard him as their murderer as they lay dying...
100%

I've read (unfortunately) the Eggtown spoiler. There's something in there I'd like to discuss with you without having to spoiler font. I'll pm you on this.

Thanks for updating the thread Wes. Me and the wife dig it.
Eric.


I've read the Eggtown spoiler as well, so PM away; I'll be looking forward to it. And thanks for the kind words...

great stuff!!!

After find815 was on, are you thinking differently on this?

4) Flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island by Hanso. (It was accidentally wrecked there) Intent was to bring a specially selected group of people who can match and even exceed Ben's rapport with Jacob/the island, to undermine him. (An unusually large number of the Losties were _given_ tickets for this specific flight. Claire was told she couldn't even take another flight.) Faked undersea crash footage was created as a cover, but no real undersea crash exists.

Sorry to jump into this crucial thread at such a old point, but this post had some great stuff in it so it seems as good a place as any...

You're right that the island need not be sentient for the basic theory to work. And I do suspect that the writers will not dump unnesessary details on us in giving the solution, seeing that they've gotta fit in so many necessary ones. I'm finding that there are now enough pieces of the puzzle on the table that if we carefully infer how the picture may extend beyond the pieces, we can suddenly start connecting them into at least part of a coherent picture. If the writers are as smart as we think they are, there's probably more than one way to do it, and they're leading us carefully down the wrong path. That's part of the hunt, and I love it...



I agree entirely. E.g., I love your take on the relationships and allegiances, and I agree with much of it (which is why I gave you a SO on my own theory page, see sig link) even though I'm not in the island-as-agent camp.

I've found, in solving mystery stories, that there tends to be both what I call "the puzzle," which usually includes the physical details and actions that have led up to the "impossible" situation, and there are "story details," usually character-related, that involve hidden motivations and revelations not necessarily connected to the main puzzle, but which are still interesting to learn. The "puzzle" part can sometimes be figured out ahead of time, if we're given fair clues. But the "story details" can be anything the writer wants them to be, and need not be revealed until the very end of the story. So they will tend to be a surprise, at least if the writer is original.

Brilliantly put!

In this case, the exact nature of the island, sentient or not, may well fall into the bucket of story details, and the writers can make it whatever they want it to be. As I find it convenient to have the island creating and controlling the apparitions which appear to act with intelligence, my whole theory becomes simpler when I put the intelligence in the island, but there are other ways of dealing with that issue. Since we don't know what devices the writers will be needing in future seasons, we can't be sure what path they'll want to take.



And ain't that grand? 9 more hours til 4.02.... wee!

I know you've tweaked your thinking (haven't we all) since you wrote this, but I just wanted say thanks for taking the time to write all this in such coherent and entertaining detail. You and I don't agree on how the island works, but we largely agree on the 'org chart' if you know what I mean. I definitely think that these last three seasons will play out a lot like a really complicated spy novel-- who's an agent for whom, who's a double agent, who's a turncoat, who's a free agent, and so on. Learning about the nature of the island, from all these guides/witnesses of varying degrees of trustworthiness, is gonna be quite a ride!

great stuff!!!

After find815 was on, are you thinking differently on this?

4) Flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island by Hanso. (It was accidentally wrecked there) Intent was to bring a specially selected group of people who can match and even exceed Ben's rapport with Jacob/the island, to undermine him. (An unusually large number of the Losties were _given_ tickets for this specific flight. Claire was told she couldn't even take another flight.) Faked undersea crash footage was created as a cover, but no real undersea crash exists.

Hi joeyboy; good to see you here...

I'm willing to rethink most anything, given the right evidence, and I suppose this line could easily be changed to state that faked wreckage was planted, without any real change to the theory as a whole.

The idea that faked footage was created was more an application of Occam's Razor than anything deduced by evidence. After all, if I were wanting to fund a conspiracy as cheaply as possible, I'd fake the undersea footage in shallow water at night, as I'd suggested. That's the simplest way to do it. And yet, if I wanted extra credibility, I suppose I'd plant fake wreckage, and then entice an unsuspecting innocent like Sam to come along and let him "find" the fake wreckage, guided by mysterious "clues" that I'd also anonymously sent him. (Ever wonder where Sam got those clues from, in the first place?)

It would seem that the depth of the wreckage might make it impractical for anyone else to verify the wreck, whether the actual plane was really there or not. And since the search for Black Rock suspiciously ended immediately after "Flight 815" was "found," it has the appearance of a set-up. I mean, if they were interested in finding the Black Rock, they'd keep on searching. You don't go abandoning an expensive search because you found something else unexpectedly; instead you notify the proper authorities and keep on doing the job you're being paid for. But if they knew that Black Rock was already on the island and their reason for the search was to "accidentally" locate some fake wreckage, it's quite consistent with what they did _and_ with the Three Kings theory as presented here.

At the end of the day, there would appear to be a conspiracy to hide what hapened to the _real_ flight 815, and to make sure no one searches for it, accidentally stumbling on the island and the real 815 remains. Sound reasonable?

At the end of the day, there would appear to be a conspiracy to hide what hapened to the _real_ flight 815, and to make sure no one searches for it, accidentally stumbling on the island and the real 815 remains. Sound reasonable?

Sounds very reasonable to me-- two birds with one stone, really: 1. go to the island 2. perform documentable mock-815 search en route.

I know you've tweaked your thinking (haven't we all) since you wrote this, but I just wanted say thanks for taking the time to write all this in such coherent and entertaining detail. You and I don't agree on how the island works, but we largely agree on the 'org chart' if you know what I mean. I definitely think that these last three seasons will play out a lot like a really complicated spy novel-- who's an agent for whom, who's a double agent, who's a turncoat, who's a free agent, and so on. Learning about the nature of the island, from all these guides/witnesses of varying degrees of trustworthiness, is gonna be quite a ride!

You're very kind; thank you.

And I'm not the least bit worried if you don't agree with me on all the details. Heck... _I_ don't always agree with me on all the details...

The only way this theory came together as much as it did is that I've avoided "falling in love" with any theory I was working with at any given time. Whenever a really solid contradiction appeared to some of my working theories, it was worth a hundred revelations that supported them, because it meant that I could eliminate some class of theories from consideration. (Survival of the fittest!!!) Negative information can be very positive... ;)

There were others that I've eliminated entirely due to what I've felt were impractical for telling in a television story, impractical for the genre audience, or just not satisfying enough for such a long-term audience investment. These eliminations were completely subjective and while I've tried to evaluate as wide a breadth as I think the writers could feel free to work in, it's still totally my opinion, and if I guessed it wrong, I could be missing out on huge sets of possibilities.

In the end, I don't believe for a moment that I've got it all right; just that after sifting through all the little mysteries we've been shown, I think I've been able to include most of them into one consistent picture that consistently includes them. But I expect that the writers will do an even better job and I too am looking forward to one amazing ride...

I hear ya.

After all, I completely understand the show and the Island, in great and specific detail, and you won't be able to convince me I'm wrong. At least not until 9 pm tonight!:biggrin: Or possibly sooner, if I keep reading around the 'Lage...

I hear ya.

After all, I completely understand the show and the Island, in great and specific detail, and you won't be able to convince me I'm wrong. At least not until 9 pm tonight!:biggrin: Or possibly sooner, if I keep reading around the 'Lage...

It's true; every morning after a new Lost episode, we come to the message boards to the tinkling sound of broken theories being swept up off the floor. On the one hand, we can hope that ours isn't the next one down there. On the other hand, we may hope for the contradicting clues sooner, not later, so that the remaining bugs in our ideas can be cleaned out quickly.

I guess we win either way...

Hi joeyboy; good to see you here...

I'm willing to rethink most anything, given the right evidence, and I suppose this line could easily be changed to state that faked wreckage was planted, without any real change to the theory as a whole.

The idea that faked footage was created was more an application of Occam's Razor than anything deduced by evidence. After all, if I were wanting to fund a conspiracy as cheaply as possible, I'd fake the undersea footage in shallow water at night, as I'd suggested. That's the simplest way to do it. And yet, if I wanted extra credibility, I suppose I'd plant fake wreckage, and then entice an unsuspecting innocent like Sam to come along and let him "find" the fake wreckage, guided by mysterious "clues" that I'd also anonymously sent him. (Ever wonder where Sam got those clues from, in the first place?)

It would seem that the depth of the wreckage might make it impractical for anyone else to verify the wreck, whether the actual plane was really there or not. And since the search for Black Rock suspiciously ended immediately after "Flight 815" was "found," it has the appearance of a set-up. I mean, if they were interested in finding the Black Rock, they'd keep on searching. You don't go abandoning an expensive search because you found something else unexpectedly; instead you notify the proper authorities and keep on doing the job you're being paid for. But if they knew that Black Rock was already on the island and their reason for the search was to "accidentally" locate some fake wreckage, it's quite consistent with what they did _and_ with the Three Kings theory as presented here.

At the end of the day, there would appear to be a conspiracy to hide what hapened to the _real_ flight 815, and to make sure no one searches for it, accidentally stumbling on the island and the real 815 remains. Sound reasonable?
Haha! Definitley reasonable! I didn't mean it hurt the theory in any way at all, just noting newer info :biggrin: .

Sorry, cannot think too much on this subject now, my mind's completely on something else.....I've been putting a lot of thought into exactly who juliet meant, upon prodding jack to essentially assassinate ben, "some of us want change". I've always presumed fellow others, but am now wondering.... I'll put a thread up if I think of anything reasonable :cool: .

Let's talk about King Widmore...

Henry Gale had a balloon crash pre 815. It was a Widmore balloon. Remember the crate of boomerangs in S1 or 2? They were Widmore's.The Maxwell Group who we discovered in find815, is the same group that funded the expedition of the Christiane1. Who we saw found the wreckage of F815. The MG also a division of Widmore Industries.

Matthew Abaddon was a clue in the game as well. Now, he turns up in 4.01 passing himself off as an Oceanic lawyer, and in 4.02 as the guy that hired Naomi and brought together the freighties that were to land and serch for Ben.

Who do you think was behind Charlotte barging in the archeoligical site? Bribing an official representative to go look and find what seemed to be her objective...a Dharma artifact? I'd wager on the MG.

I know this is stuff for the category "filler" that the writers can extrapolate at will and ad nauseum, but I dont see King Hanso hanging around. All this stuff deepends the mistery of Paik's involment in al this...what is the King up to?

Eric.

ps. Never mind the pm thing. I'll let it Eggtown play out first instead of looking foolish! :biggrin: ;) On the other hand, what do you take as the most important clue out of find815? The Maxwell group being a Widmore division, or that it was researching the Black Rock and not F815? Or was it...

Who do you think was behind Charlotte barging in the archeoligical site? Bribing an official representative to go look and find what seemed to be her objective...a Dharma artifact? I'd wager on the MG.


As far as Charlotte's concerned, Ben said her degree was in Cultural Anthropology, which is involves the study of human cultures, both old and recent. She could easily be researching the inner workings of a rececntly-vanished cult called The Dharma Initiative. This would easily explain her satisfied reaction when she found the Dharma logo on the collar of a bear whose bones were clearly not all that old... My guess is that she's on the team because she's the closest they can find to an outside expert on the Dharma Initiative, and much of the DI's infrastructure is still marbled all through the island. Also, if any remaining DI members have survived, they may prove useful allies. All in all, she may just have been an innocent academic, until being hired to do a job for Abbadon.
100%
On the other hand, what do you take as the most important clue out of find815? The Maxwell group being a Widmore division, or that it was researching the Black Rock and not F815? Or was it...

I think that the most important clue of FIND815 is that the search for Black Rock ended immediately after Flight 815 was found. This would suggest that the search for the Black Rock was never serious, and all the time was a ruse to "discover" the fake wreckage of flight 815. They even enticed innocent Sam along and let him "discover" it, for extra credibility. We never learned where all his anonymous clues came from, but they were likely sent by the Maxwell Group, to expedite the finding of the fake wreckage, so that they wouldn't have to fund the Christiane I for any longer than necessary.

WESB, I totally agree about the Black Rock being a cover mission for 815.



Who do you think was behind Charlotte barging in the archeoligical site? Bribing an official representative to go look and find what seemed to be her objective...a Dharma artifact?

My guess is that not only Charlotte but also Faraday, Milo, and Lapidus were all recruited by Abaddon's people (yep, I'd say MG as well) because each had expressed specific curiousity about flight 815 in some personal or professional way. In other words, Abaddon and co. hired personally-invested potential whistleblowers. It's no coincidence that they have the necessary profiles for the team-- that's what has made them interested in 815 in the first place.

Do I know what their connections are? No, of course not! :D

But I'd guess something like this:

- Charlotte- interested in Dharma after someone close to her was sucked into what she suspected was a cult.

- Lapidus- feels guilt that he wasn't the one to go down in 815. My guess is, he got nixed for flying b/c of alcohol use. Funny how they showed him dropping a toy plane into a fish tank!

- Milo- heard something from the dead grandson that had to do with Ecko. That picture of the grandson and the bags of heroin were just too much of a connection.

- Faraday- knows something about the electromagnetic anomaly and its connection to the downing of 815, or the loss of Desmond's boat, or something. Notice how people who work at or know about the listening stations end up being branded head-cases?

What say all of you?

but I dont see King Hanso hanging around. All this stuff deepends the mistery of Paik's involment in al this...what is the King up to?


Hanso's (possibly Mittelwerk's) plan was to bring a load of people to the island that have talents similar to Ben's and to undermine him. Hanso has no control over the island and can't really appear there as a player. But despite the destruction of the plane and despite the unexpected murder of Libby, his plan seems to be bearing some mutated fruit.

Ben is now a prisoner of the people Hanso has sent, and Locke, and possibly Hurley are in-the-running to be The One True Guru Blessed By The Island/Jacob. On the down side, without guidance by a Hanso operative as Libby would have been, they're getting out of control, and appear about to start running things on their own.

Now, if Paik is behind the freighter, as we've also seen Abbadon to be, then his "Are they alive?" question to Hurley may suggest that Paik's excursion into the island didn't go well, or Abbadon wouldn't need to have asked the question.

We haven't had enough flashforward material yet, but it's entirely possible that with Ben overthrown that Widmore's no longer a player, Paik's adventure went badly, and Hanso's pawns have taken over the chessboard and are out of control.

In that case, it's not a story of David beating Goliath, but David beating three Goliaths. At least for now...

PS, sorry if I missed something, but WESB who do you think is Ben's man on the boat? Minkowski? The woman on the phone? Talbot? (That is the same boat, no? I've gotten confused...)

In other words, Abaddon and co. hired personally-invested potential whistleblowers. It's no coincidence that they have the necessary profiles for the team-- that's what has made them interested in 815 in the first place.

Do I know what their connections are? No, of course not! :D


I may not know, but I'm probably laboring under the illusion that I know...

BTW... something similar to this was posted elsewhere on the board. I would humbly (and loudly and whiningly) beg the mods to allow this copy also to remain here. It contains enhancements, and it's matured to a point where I think it belongs in this theory.

Here's my guess as to why the particular team was assembled... If they're being sent into unknown territory on a covert mission, the group might include people with specialized knowledge, matched to what _is_ known about the territory.

1. Naomi - the one with the military experience. Naomi is to conduct the actual surveillance-and-grab of Ben. And to get her team who represent her information-on-the-territory in and out safely. Since the rest of the group are not pros, they can't be counted on to keep secrets (especially Miles when he gets excited!) so they may not know the entire purpose of the mission. That may have died with Naomi, or perhaps Miles has it now (in which case, we'll know it soon, too...).
2. Lapidus - both the pilot _and_ an apparent expert on Flight 815. (In spite of what
Abbadon said to Naomi, he suspected that survivors might be found on the island. It
would be imperative to be able to tell an 815'er -- a possible ally, from an Other -- a
likely enemy.) He's already shown his expertise in this area in his spotting of Juliet.
3. Faraday - A scientist of unknown specialty. If Abbadon knows that the island is a
place with unique scientific properties, that may interfere with their operation, someone
who was able to detect and possibly counteract them might be essential to the
completion of their mission. Farraday has already shown himself able to notice
unusual characteristics of the island.
4. Miles - The Ghostbuster. Considering things like the whispers, Jacob, and some
of the other odd goings-on at the island, Miles appears to have some talent that may
be necessary in communicating with/counteracting them. He also -- yeccchhh -- might
be able to get information out of a dead opponent...
5. Charlotte - Ben said her degree was in Cultural Anthropology, which is involves the
study of human cultures, both old and recent. She could easily be researching the inner workings of a rececntly-vanished cult called The Dharma Initiative. This would easily
explain her satisfied reaction when she found the Dharma logo on the collar of a bear
whose bones were clearly not all that old... My guess is that she's on the team because she's the closest they can find to an outside expert on the Dharma Initiative, and much
of the DI's infrastructure is still marbled all through the island. Also, if any remaining DI
members have survived, they may prove useful allies.
100%
PS, sorry if I missed something, but WESB who do you think is Ben's man on the boat? Minkowski? The woman on the phone? Talbot? (That is the same boat, no? I've gotten confused...)

A less-mature version of this has also been posted elsewhere; if the great, benificent and most-wonderful mods will also let this improved version remain, I will promise never to do this again. (Well, I promise not to ask again for a long time, anyway...)

While we don't have any solid evidence, I think what Ben said is suspicious for many reasons...

* For Ben to know the information he did about the freighter team (and to exclude such deus-ex-machina'ish story devices as telepathy and mind reading...) Ben would have to have an information source, either on the boat, or on the mainland.
* Communication with Ben from the boat would be a far greater problem than
communication with Ben from the mainland.
* Since the freighter team can communicate with the boat, Ben's comment would
immediately compromise his spy there, if there was a spy...
* Even under the pressure he was under, Ben would likely have tried to protect his spy on the boat by claiming he had a spy on the mainland. This could have provided the same information he gave...
* IF he had a spy on the mainland, we'd expect him to protect that person by claiming he had a spy on the boat. This would both protect the spy and disrupt operations on the boat...
* IF there had been a spy on the mainland, the information about the coming freighter
team might easily have been passed to Ben through Mikhail, back when communication with the mainland was still happening, and before the jamming went up. In fact, the jamming may just have been initiated _precisely_because_ Ben got the word that a team was about to be sent to abduct him.
* Getting a spy _somewhere_ in Abbadon's organization would be much easier than
getting one specifically assigned to the boat.
* Ben is not famous for telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...

Considering all these things, I would propose the possibility that Ben may NOT have a spy on the boat, but that he does have a spy somewhere. It could well be someone we've never seen and never will see. However, I will be so bold as to predict that he will not speak Russian & have an eyepatch...:biggrin:

Interesting, WESB. For some reason, I had a gut feeling that Farraday might be Ben's man, though Lord knows he'd be a terribly person to ask to keep a secret. I'll have to rewatch to see what gave me that feeling.

What do you think of my theorized motivations for the helicopter crew and the idea (in post #80) that they were all potential whistleblowers on the fact that flight wreckage is a hoax?

What do you think of my theorized motivations for the helicopter crew and the idea (in post #80) that they were all potential whistleblowers on the fact that flight wreckage is a hoax?

It's certainly a possibility. As potential whistleblowers, it's even possible that they weren't intended to return after completing their mission.

It would bring a whole new light to Abbadon's question to Hurley...

'Nuther question, maybe kind of silly: when asked, both Faraday and Charlotte said their party consisted of "four, including me," when in fact there were five of them. Do you think they were counting on one person not getting found (maybe Lapidus)? Or do you think they meant "four, including me but not including Naomi"?

Since Naomi was not on their chopper, they wouldn't count her...

Oh, right! Now I'm confused... there were two helicopters on the freighter? Because didn't Naomi's crash into the water? My brain is turning to Maypo...

I don't think Naomi's crashed...same chopper, Naomi was dropped off ...I think.

Does that help lol.

I don't think Naomi's crashed...same chopper, Naomi was dropped off ...I think.

Does that help lol.
But we hear the chopper hit the water, I suppose they could have droppedd some kinda of box to lighten the load or something.

wesb, love you theory, I agree completely, love the way it's written also, I've thought for some time that at least Widmore and Paik were the bad guys, and obviously that Hanso was the good guy, I don't think Widmore is onvolvedd with Ben but we'll see.

But we hear the chopper hit the water

Exactly-- if it wasn't the chopper itself it was something damn big. Who knows, maybe it was the same chopper crashing in two difference spacetime versions (I'm sort of making fun of myself at this point, please note)...
:biggrin:

But we hear the chopper hit the water, I suppose they could have droppedd some kinda of box to lighten the load or something.

wesb, love you theory, I agree completely, love the way it's written also, I've thought for some time that at least Widmore and Paik were the bad guys, and obviously that Hanso was the good guy, I don't think Widmore is onvolvedd with Ben but we'll see.

Well thanks for the kind words. I don't require that people agree with me for them to be fun to talk to, so not to worry there... As far as Hanso being the Good Guy, this is possible, but since there are TLE portions where Mittelwerk had temporarily taken over The Hanso Foundation, it's possible for Hanso to be both good guy _and_ bad guy, depending on where along the story timeline you slide. For example, Hanso coulde be a _bad_ guy when flight 815 crashed (and indeed I did propose that Hanso brought flight 815 to the island) but in some of the flashforwards, after Alvar Hanso regained control, The Hanso Foundation might change its direction altogether. In some of the flashbacks, depending on when Mittelwerk made his power grab, it could go either way...

and also depending upon whether hanso remains the benevolent guy he seems to be, given his, y'know, his rough history ;)

wesb, overall i like your theory, but there is one thing I am unclear on...

I am fuzzy about Desmond and Libby, and how they relate to Hanso/Widmore. If Libby was a Hanso guide for 815's potential special people, why was she the one who gave the boat to desmond. Widmore coerced him into taking the race around the world, which makes it seem like libby was working for widmore.

i woud appreciate it if you could you clear this up for me

wesb, overall i like your theory, but there is one thing I am unclear on...

I am fuzzy about Desmond and Libby, and how they relate to Hanso/Widmore. If Libby was a Hanso guide for 815's potential special people, why was she the one who gave the boat to desmond. Widmore coerced him into taking the race around the world, which makes it seem like libby was working for widmore.

i woud appreciate it if you could you clear this up for me

Well, I have to say I'm pretty impressed that you studied the theory carefully enough to spot this one. While I'm sure I've put all the details for this particular point in the theory, I've glossed-over how they fit together here because the full description is messy enough in text-form as to be distracting. (As we'll see, it's a breeze to show the viewers in flashback form...) To cover it at all properly here it deserves its own post. Here it is...

Libby's appearance at the airport, calming things down between Eko and Charlotte Malkin, would seem to put her squarely in Hanso's camp. After all, with The Hanso Group planning to bring a group of "talent" to the island, they wouldn't want to miss Eko because he became agitated and missed the flight. Libby exchanged a glance with Charlotte that could mean many things, but for our convenience we'll presume Charlotte was being warned to cut it out. Sorry for the digression; just establishing where Libby's allegiances lie. Now, back to Des...

Hanso wanted Des on the island. But Hanso didn't control the island; Widmore did, so Widmore needed to be involved in safely getting Des there. Widmore wouldn't be likely to help Hanso, who he kicked off the island in the purge. Fortunately, Widmore also had a good reason to want Desmond on the island -- to separate him from Penny, and this could be exploited.

But let's look at the realities (if "realities" is a reasonable word to use when discussing this show...). To me, Widmore's style in dealing with the "problem" of Des and Penny would more likely involve combining Des, a sack of cement and the River Thames. The idea of guiding Des to the special island that Widmore was now in charge of is a somewhat sophisticated way of getting rid of someone. Bringing him surreptitiously on-board to do this would have involved Libby becoming a trusted advisor to Widmore while she was still under the employ of Hanso. (Something like a corporate spy, but there to plant information, rather than to steal it...)

As Widmore's go-fer, she'd have suggested the idea of stranding Des on the island and made sure Desmond got the boat. But her primary motive was for Hanso to get Desmond to the island to turn the failsafe. Now, while this is complicated to explain in text, Libby's double-dealing can be quickly shown in two flashbacks, in less than 45 seconds' time. One flashback might show her suggesting the use of the island to strand Des to Widmore (purely because she's concerned that his daughter is getting mixed-up with a bad-sort of guy...), followed by another showing of her offering the boat to Des. The other flashback might show her sitting with Br. Campbell and Ms. Hawking, assuring them she has Widmore wrapped around her finger and knows how to deal with him in getting Des to the island...

But there's more. I'm not sure I've covered this part completely in the thread here or not, but have you ever wondered how, on such a huge island, Desmond just managed to get to that carefully-hidden Swan hatch where he was supposed to be? I mean, with "Others" roaming around, with Smoke Clouds, with Polar Bears, and who knows what else, he must have been awfully lucky (or blessed by fate,) right?

Wrong!!!

I'm convinced that the writers are burying us in coincidences on this show so that we'll dismiss as coincidence those things that did happen to be planned. Hanso wanted Des in the hatch, and who was out walking around -- in a storm, no less -- to fetch Des out of the water and bring him right to the hatch? Kelvin, that's who. Kelvin, the last real Dharma guy that we know of, still on the island, just happened to be strolling in the storm where Des just happened to crash his boat.

Now, Kelvin probably didn't tell Desmond everything about the hatch, but it would seem likely that there was still some communications channel by which Kelvin could recieve a message from the Dharma bosses at Hanso, telling him that a special visitor would be arriving soon. It's even possible that they might have given him some approximate times and places to expect the arrival. This would explain why Kelvin happened to be out there in such wretched weather. And in the end, Des ended up exactly where Hanso wanted him, even though he was smack in the middle of territory controlled by Widmore...

Because the Hanso/Dharma folk are maybe less than fully transparent in their dealings with their people, they seem to have been a little mysterious about the nature of the visitor. This would explain why Kelvin used the "snowman" riddle/countersign. They wanted Kelvin to be extremely excited about this incoming guest, so that he'd be sure to be out there looking when Des arrived, no matter what.

gotcha. i can certainly see the possibilities... and then Libby in the psych ward... was she observing Hurley as a potentially gifted participant? she clearly gave him the most attention out of anyone on the island- was that just to keep a low profile, or was he for some reason particularly valuable?

gotcha. i can certainly see the possibilities... and then Libby in the psych ward... was she observing Hurley as a potentially gifted participant? she clearly gave him the most attention out of anyone on the island- was that just to keep a low profile, or was he for some reason particularly valuable?

Libby's appearance in the psych center is absolutely bursting with interesting possibilities but I can't think of any clue that favors a single one of them. That makes this is one of the most intriguing (and frustrating!) mysteries I can think of. Some of the more interesting possibilities...


She was scoping out Hurley, like you suggested. I hate myself every time I mention this because it's totally superficial and I absolutely love the Hurley character, but looking at the "mismatch" between Libby and Hurley, I have to suspect her character had some ulterior motives with her interest in him. (At the same time, I'm an incurable romantic and I applaud people who can really see the beauty inside the person. I hope fervently that she was truly attracted to the specialness that is Hurley.) Still, as one of the few to later have a "close encounter" with Jacob, Hurley may early on have been recognized as very special to Hanso's purposes, inviting Libby's investigation.
She was scoping out Leonard, who first gave Hurley "the numbers." Let's not forget that we're considering that Libby's alleigances are to Hanso. Anyone, even a mental patient, who's obsessed with "the numbers" might attract their intense interest. Where did he get the numbers? Are the numbers responsible for his condition? How sensitive might he be to the island?
She could be an unwilling patient there, committed for nefarious reasons. Libby may not be a willing employee of Hanso. Or, she may ultimately have messed up in her "industrial spy" capacity in Widmore's camp and gotten caught and is undergoing the consequences. She could possibly have been committed under the care of an unethical physician for the purpose of administering drugs to her. The purpose of the drugs might be to get information out of her, or to condition her into doing a job she ordinarily would refuse to do. Or perhaps she's being drugged to get her to _forget_ something she learned.
She could be a willing patient there. She may have been committed because she can't cope with something terrible that she's done in the capacity of her work.
I'm sure there are lots more possibilities, but the info on Libby is so incredibly sketchy that there's no point in going on. Her appearance to Desmond, just giving away a fabulously expensive yacht to him is almost certainly a set-up, so I expect she has some behind-the-scenes secrets. Now, it's always possible that her meeting Des is just one more of the show's coincidences and she gave him the yacht because she's a "psycho-chick" who didn't have the mental clarity to realize what she was doing...

But considering the dullness of that, and when we consider that she was at just the right place at the right time when Charlotte Malkin got Eko all upset at the airport, when we consider the lie she told Hurley to distract him when he said he didn't remember her from the plane, and considering that the writers have never given us a Libby-centric flashback, it's almost certain that sweet, pretty little Libby is hiding some really fascinating secrets.

it's almost certain that sweet, pretty little Libby is hiding some really fascinating secrets.

agreed... And of course there is her quasi-psych session with claire, in which she plays a pivotal role in jogging claire's memory of her time in the dharma station. that is the most blatant moment I can remember her influencing the group towards a deeper realization of the island's mysteries

considering that the writers have never given us a Libby-centric flashback, it's almost certain that sweet, pretty little Libby is hiding some really fascinating secrets.

I totally agree with this. As I wrote elsewhere, Libby's connections are substantial, and she has feet in all camps, as it were, yet we really have no idea who she is. There's no other character in quite that position. I have no doubt that she is absolutely pivotal.

And I hope and think she really loves Hurley, independent of her role(s). They've been my favorite couple on the show, hands-down.

WESB!

thank you very much for this thoughtful and well told theory! i never read a theory that i could totally accord with and which i can add nothing to but: BRAVO!

thanks for sharing this.

so tonights episode (constant) had some implications for this theory (which is at the present time my favorite). Widmore purchasing the black rock journal in 1996 raises some questions. The immediate thought is that he is looking for the island, which, unless time moves considerably faster on the island, would be after ben had taken control. But the alternative would be that widmore is trying to buy up information that would help others to find the island....

so, perhaps alvar hanso died around 1996 (didn't he disappear sometime around then? I am probably way off here) and a relative auctioned his belongings. Widmore caught wind of it, and wanted to buy up the island related items so they wouldn't hit the public.

But i think the more natural conclusion would be that in 1996, widmore was in fact searching for the island- or perhaps simply information about it.

WESB!
thank you very much for this thoughtful and well told theory! i never read a theory that i could totally accord with and which i can add nothing to but: BRAVO!

thanks for sharing this.

Well, you're extraordinarily kind. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
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so tonights episode (constant) had some implications for this theory (which is at the present time my favorite). Widmore purchasing the black rock journal in 1996 raises some questions. The immediate thought is that he is looking for the island, which, unless time moves considerably faster on the island, would be after ben had taken control. But the alternative would be that widmore is trying to buy up information that would help others to find the island....

so, perhaps alvar hanso died around 1996 (didn't he disappear sometime around then? I am probably way off here) and a relative auctioned his belongings. Widmore caught wind of it, and wanted to buy up the island related items so they wouldn't hit the public.

But i think the more natural conclusion would be that in 1996, widmore was in fact searching for the island- or perhaps simply information about it.


Interesting thoughts. I'd point out that in TLE, Alvar hanso was shown to be alive in 2006, so I think he should be available in the story. As far as Widmore's appearance last night goes, I think that all we really know is that he has enough interest in The Black Rock to pay a fabulous amount of money for a relic connected to it. This does likely (but not certainly) raise him out of the ranks of the random background characters and puts him into the group of people who are players in the mysterious-but-hidden story that we've had hints is happening, going way way back to early parts of the story.

I'm not sure I can see any indication of a "natural" conclusion in Widmore's actions. What we're given in the story so far is that the contents of the journal were never revealed outside of the Hanso family, so we have the possibility (but not the certainty) that Widmore doesn't know what's in it. If this were the only information we had, then we might suspect several things could be happening:

Widmore knows all about the island and the Black Rock, and is merely acting as a wealthy collector of interesting relics. The scene then would then have the purpose of connecting Widmore to knowledge of the Black Rock.
Widmore is searching for the island, and somehow knows that the Black Rock is connected with it. He is interested in any data that may help in his search. This might be a clue connecting Widmore to the freighter.
Widmore just happens to have an interest in The Black Rock as wealthy collectors may develop on a whim. The scene would then be a red herring, and was used primarily as the means by which Desmond's search for Penny's address is completed, a scene to show Widmore's capricious use of his wealth, as well as a scene that allows Widmore to degrade Desmond by his leaving the water running in the restroom, for Desmond to subserviently shut off for him.
Widmore knows all about the island and the Black Rock, and wants to make sure that any information in the journal that might allow someone else to locate the island is suppressed. He has personally gone to the auction to see who _else_ is bidding on the journal, to determine who might actually be searching for the island.Looking at the scene alone, there's nothing to favor one of these possibilities over any other one. Looking at the fact that Penny knew to send an incoming message immediately when Charlie shut down the jammer, the fact that she asked him how he got the frequency (implying she knew that the frequency was special) and the fact that she knew to be looking for a magnetic anomaly suggests she has a contact in the organization of someone who _does_ know a lot about the island and is in communication with Ben's people. The most likely choice there would be her father, which might then favor possibilities 1 and 4, above. It does not guarantee this however. But when we also consider that...

next week's ep contains Juliet flashbacks, is done entirely on the island, _and_ in which one of the characters is Charles Widmore, we may get a clearer resolution to this issue. My suspicion is that Widmore would never appear on the island, because Widmore is the type of man who has people coming to him. Perhaps he'll appear on one of the same kinds of video communication equipment that his daughter penny appeared on in TTLG.

In any case, I'm suspecting we'll get some really interesting info on this next week...

I should add as a postscript since you'd mentioned island time that it's now unlikely that time is moving differently on the island, as Sayid, the calendar on the ship's wall, and Penny all agree that the date is Christmas Eve, 2004. So we have agreement between someone who's been on the island since the crash, someone who's nowhere near the island, and someone who's on the borderline, being bizarrely influenced by the island.

OMG - you are my new favoritist person in the world!

Very, Very well done! This is amazing reading and wonderful food for thought. I'm through about 4 pages and you have convinced me to withing 98.6%.

Keep up the good work:biggrin:

100%
As I've been able to delve deeper over the last day - I still think you got the best thing going on here, but have a couple of questions to help me stay on the same page:

1) So you think Jacob isn't necessarily an actual person, but the actual intelligence/representation of the Island?!

2) Why do you think the Black Rock ended up on the Island in the first place - accident or was the Black Rock looking for the island - or was the Black Rock landing there what started it all in the first place?

3) If the Black Rock crashed there unintentionally, then who was it that got off the island and back to the main world to share their insight about the island (and what was so "neat" about he island that they wanted to share?

I don't remember seeing anything on 2 and 3, so if you have posted on them, just point me to them.

Thanks again for such insight - keep the info coming!:biggrin:

Wes,

I just posted in Black Lotus's new Course Correctors thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=82409) about the idea that Widmore and Ben may be on opposing sides. I was trying to figure out why Widmore seemed to have softened his stance towards Desmond and Penny's relationship. I know he said that Desmond should hear from her directly why she no longer cared for him, but previously he had seemed very eager to ensure that Desmond did not even contact her.

Did Widmore learn that Desmond was key to the island being revealed? Possibly through Desmond's erratic behavior, that Widmore discerned was related to island experiences?

Ben told Locke that pushing the button was nonsense. But I think Ben was just manipulating Locke in his usual way, figuring that Locke would then prioritize the button-pushing and thus keep the island hidden. A lot of effort went into getting Desmond on to the island, and, when he began to flash, steering him towards specific behaviors. Desmond really believed he would die when he turned the failsafe key, and he really believed he was saving the world.

By revealing the island, has Desmond turned it over to Widmore?

As I've been able to delve deeper over the last day - I still think you got the best thing going on here, but have a couple of questions to help me stay on the same page:

1) So you think Jacob isn't necessarily an actual person, but the actual intelligence/representation of the Island?!

2) Why do you think the Black Rock ended up on the Island in the first place - accident or was the Black Rock looking for the island - or was the Black Rock landing there what started it all in the first place?

3) If the Black Rock crashed there unintentionally, then who was it that got off the island and back to the main world to share their insight about the island (and what was so "neat" about he island that they wanted to share?

I don't remember seeing anything on 2 and 3, so if you have posted on them, just point me to them.


First, thanks very much for the generous compliments.

As for your first question, I believe that the Jacob-is-the-island idea is based at least partly on an exchange between Mikhail and Ben. Mikhail's question to Ben was to the effect of asking incredulously if the island tell him to jam his own people. Ben's response was essentially, yes, Jacob told me to do it. (It was in TTLG, I believe.) Now, I've also spoken of a possible "group" of intelligences that may include both the whisperers _and_ Jacob, the dominant one, but this is entirely speculation.

Whether Ben's comment about Jacob/the island meant that the two are the same, or whether Jacob might be a dominating intelligence in the island, or whether the Jacob connection is just an assumption on Ben's part is still to be seen. I note that TPTB have said that they've figured out how Jacob will be _depicted_. They didn't say that they knew who would be _cast_ as Jacob. That just seemed interesting though not conclusive. So the short answer to your question is that I strongly suspect that Jacob isn't a "person" in the same sense that Ben and Locke are.

Given the turn the story is taking with the introduction of "Ghostbuster Miles," it might even make some sense that Jacob and his cabin have suddenly gone into hiding since Miles arrived on the island...

As far as Black Rock ideas go, there is precious little information to make any reasonable speculation, so I haven't made any. One think I've been awaiting with interest is the fact that the tsunami of 2004 is coming up very soon. In the Constant, they almost went out of their way to beat us with the fact that it's Christmas Eve, giving just two days for that event. We've been given starkly conflicting info as to which ocean the island might be in, which would be important in this respect. This all may have some clever purpose to be seen, but we won't have long to wait on this one. The image of a huge wave washng over a portion of the island may reveal that the Black Rock is situated such that an earlier tsunami might have brought it inland.
100%
Wes,

I just posted in Black Lotus's new Course Correctors thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=82409) about the idea that Widmore and Ben may be on opposing sides. I was trying to figure out why Widmore seemed to have softened his stance towards Desmond and Penny's relationship. I know he said that Desmond should hear from her directly why she no longer cared for him, but previously he had seemed very eager to ensure that Desmond did not even contact her.

Did Widmore learn that Desmond was key to the island being revealed? Possibly through Desmond's erratic behavior, that Widmore discerned was related to island experiences?

Ben told Locke that pushing the button was nonsense. But I think Ben was just manipulating Locke in his usual way, figuring that Locke would then prioritize the button-pushing and thus keep the island hidden. A lot of effort went into getting Desmond on to the island, and, when he began to flash, steering him towards specific behaviors. Desmond really believed he would die when he turned the failsafe key, and he really believed he was saving the world.

By revealing the island, has Desmond turned it over to Widmore?

Hey there, HV...

I think there's a much simpler explanation for the softening of Widmore's attitude. Consider that in the "MacCutcheon's Scene," Widmore was perfectly amiable toward Desmond until Des asked for Penny's hand. Then he came back with just about the most venemous emotional attack I've ever seen. Widmore's response was entirely that of a father protecting his daughter from an unworthy suitor. In that case, Widmore saw Des as a huge threat that Widmore might well not be able to counter, since Penny has a will of her own. Consider that the upper-crust-wealthy do not just go marrying "commoners." Widmore's only way to deal with the issue was to convince Desmond that he truly was not worthy to marry so far above his social class, and he proceeded to humiliate him every way he could.

In "The Constant," Des is no longer a problem. Penny apparently came across as hating Des so much that Widmore no longer considered him any kind of threat. He then looked at Desmond with the mild contempt he'd have toward a defeated foe who once dared to try to rise into Widmore's class. Everything he did toward Des was still humiliating and degrading, but the volume level was turned way down. In Widmore's mind, Penny would simply tell Des off, just completing the humiliation. Giving Desmond her address was not any kind of assistance on Widmore's part; it was just one more way to knock Des down, using Penny this time.

As far as the idea of Ben telling Locke that the button was nonsense... I do believe that Ben is a master manipulator. But I'm always very skeptical of the kind of speculation where someone is presuming that what they say will definitely be expected to be a lie, so they deliberately lie to compensate. People are just too unpredictable to be maipulated in that way, the consequences of miscalculation would be huge, and Ben's manipulations so far have not stretched things this far. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Consider that...

The Swan hatch was well-hidden and Ben's people seem to have been unable to locate it after the purge.
Ben would know the Swan existed because he'd have seen images from the Swan while in The Pearl.
Ben will have seen the Pearl orientation film and presumed from it that the Swan work was harmless nonsense.
His comment to Locke was likely his honest opinion. It was wrong because we now know that the Pearl Orientation film lied. Ben did not know it was lying and thus missed the significance of the button.
An interesting consequence of all this is that Ben does not know everything about the island. His presumptions of knowledge he doesn't really have may just come back some day and bite him in the $%#... ...and I think this gives us a perfectly plausible explanation for Ben's statement. One thing that I find really exciting is that in the next episode...

The flashbacks are Juliet's, the show is filmed entirely on the island, and Widmore is in the list of characters to appear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Point taken on the Ben & the Button stuff, Wes. I think you're closer to the truth than I, there. Occam's razor and all that.

And your Widmore analysis rings true as well. Thanks for the clarifications!

One think I've been awaiting with interest is the fact that the tsunami of 2004 is coming up very soon. In the Constant, they almost went out of their way to beat us with the fact that it's Christmas Eve, giving just two days for that event. We've been given starkly conflicting info as to which ocean the island might be in, which would be important in this respect. This all may have some clever purpose to be seen, but we won't have long to wait on this one. The image of a huge wave washng over a portion of the island may reveal that the Black Rock is situated such that an earlier tsunami might have brought it inland.

Wes - good point - I don' t know where I missed this along the way - but you are very right indeed that they did make a HUGE deal about this.

Hmmm - very interesting - though I wonder if it will be this episode or will have to wait a couple?!

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions!

What a thread! Wes, you've got some really good stuff here. Quite a good grasp of what is going on with all of the people in the story. I like how you've managed to keep it strait forward and provide the options for what is going on. I always try to explain the story to my friends with options that TPTB would be going for. Your options are similar to what my mind has concocted up to this point, with very small changes in details. If anything, you’ve helped add more options.

After reading all 11 pages of this thread, I also see that you've had several kind words and probably don't need any more "smoke" blown up you @$$. I too am an electrical engineer and I like the verbiage that you've used to explain everything. You are very strait forward and speaking my language, as well as the other intelligent folks who have gotten caught up in this LOST story. OK, enough of that…

I think that this episode tonight "The Other Woman" is going to give us some key information about your 3 kings theory. Apparently Charles Widmore is to appear, and not in a flashback. Keep in mind however, that Harold Parrineau has been on the opening credits for most of season 4, but Michael apparently doesn't make an appearance until episode 4.08 titled "Meet Kevin Johnson." Might mean that Mr. Widmore does not appear in this episode and the writers are just trying to mess with us...again.

Speaking of the other woman, this therapist (who can use some therapy of her own) was supposedly married to Goodwin, is giving instructions to Juliet. Wasn’t Juliet sleeping with Goodwin at some point? Wonder if it was before, after or during his marriage to the therapist lady. Oh I hope it comes up during their interaction.

It’s also said that Juliet and Jack do some making out in this episode, as awkward as it might be. Is it just me, or have they also hinted that Ben and Juliet hooked up at one time. Tom did say that they had history together. It’s starting to sound like Juliet has been looking for love in all of the wrong places. (of course Sayid has hooked up with Nadia, Shannon and Elsa, so I guess they are all screwing like bunnies). Oh well, we shall see tonight.


Some questions I have about your theory of the island. It seems you've been barely scratching the surface of what the island really IS. I may have missed or didn’t comprehend certain parts while reading through this extensive thread, but I’m curious what your take is on the mystical properties of the island. There are all sorts of theological references, Greek mythological and scientific themes throughout the story that are indicating other entities at play here. I think that the names of a lot of these characters in intertwined with the role that they play in the series.

Take the smoke monster for example, and the fact that they call him Cerberus. When you Google “Cerberus” you find that he is the 3 headed guard-dog from Greek mythology that guarded the underworld (or “hell” or “hades”…whatever). I’m sure you’ve read the threads that talk about this and how the smoke monster has been seen coming together from 3 clouds. He also sounds like he’s growling at times as well. Smoke monster is just guarding the island.

Then there is the name Abaddon, which you can also find through Google that it is the name of the angel that cast Lucifer to the pits of hell. Also personified as the “Angel of the Abyss” while also known as the underworld and abode to LOST souls. I don’t think that Matthew Abaddon is an ordinary man, definitely not working for Oceanic Airlines.

There is also the noteworthy anagram of Gary Troup, the author of “Bad Twin,” being the word “Purgatory.” And who can forget all of the whispers and the fact that people see their dead loved ones on the island. I think that the island is the “underworld.” It is a place that dead souls reside, but it is also a place of many dimensions. The survivors have somehow made it to the island in a neutral state. Think of Schrodinger’s cat…the survivors have managed to make it on to the island at a state of being both alive and dead at the same time. This is why they can hear the whispers (of the dead souls) and some “Special” one’s can see dead people. Since they are not all dead, but are somehow physically alive in the land of the dead, they are essentially in another dimension between living and dead.

Kind of a mind twister and lends itself to several theories and interpretations, but it is certain that we are dealing religious characters in this story. Otherwise, all of the biblical references are kind of thick for something that will go for naught.

And for the scientific references…what is your take on this stuff? They have managed to use several names of scientists from various fields, such as Maxwell, Faraday, Minkowski, Hawking, etc. Most of these names are of scientists who have studied areas like electromagnetism, theoretical physics, time and space, etc. One would have to be blind to ignore all of these references to science. To me, it’s all of these things that have really sparked my interest in the story. Hey, maybe Maxwell’s wonderful equations will help us out here in the long run, they definitely helped in electromagnetic theory.

It doesn’t take much to draw up a theory from all of these references, but the details could go any which way. The jist of it being that the “underworld” island can be accessed only through a specific portal that is located at different places at different times in the real world. From the island, you can only leave if you exit through a specific portal, found by following bearing 325. The electromagnetic characteristics of the island are astounding, radiating strong fields at various places from within the islands “space” and radiating some unusual fields outside of its space in the real world as well.

Time is a whole other can of worms (or mailbox full of snakes, if you will). I think that Ben Linus (a name which has theological and mythological references) is really intending to keep the island safe. The way that he knows to keep it safe lies in his ability to travel trough time. Now his time travel, I’d assume, is either involved with his special box or using the portal, not sure about the gritty details yet. I think Richard Alpert is also helping with some of the time portal errands, which is why he never ages, either as something that he worked out with himself or a side effect of time travel.

Jacob remains a mystery to me. Well not a complete mystery, but my imagination has concocted so many possibilities that there is really no point in naming any of them. We really do need some more information on this Jacob character. TPTB have done a good job at keeping him a mystery, but I have a feeling that he has something to do with Magnus Hanso and the Black Rock. Either that or he is a personification of the island, much like several of people's visions, or maybe he is someone different to everybody.

Which reminds me of another little question...what do you think is up with Cristian Sheppard? Do you think he is on the island alive? It's hard to tell for me, given my theories. The coffin was empty after the crash and we saw in one of the mobisodes that he told Vincent to go and wake up Jack after the crash as well. I think that Cristian Sheppard is on the island, but in a whole different dimension than the survivors and even the souls of the dead. He had died and his sould came to the island, then later on his body came to the island. Now we know that the island has healing properties when you go through the portal to arrive, but the question is: does it heal death? Could Cristian have been healed from death the way Locke was healed from spinal injuries and Rose was healed from cancer? How did Ben get cancer? I can go on with the questions for hours.

Well that should be enough questions for you for now Wes, I hope we can discuss these subjects as the series pans out. Sorry if I'm asking you questions that you've already answered on other threads too, I still have more thread reading to do, but I just wanted to get my ?s out there. Peace.

not spoilerfonting since this isn't a spoiler... what you had in your spoiler said it was NOT during a flashback, I'm almost positive it's supposed to be during one. Of course I don't get to see til tomorrow, stupid itunes!!

Wes,

Wow, what do you think of tonight's episode? Is Ben lying, or is it really Widmore's boat? If it is, does Ben work for someone or is it just him and the island?

So I just saw “The Other Woman” and it seems to change some small details in your thread Wes, but I think it is actually confirming more of your theory than it proves wrong. Knowing now that Charles Widmore is owner of the freighter, and not financing Ben does change that small detail, but the fact that he is trying to find the island so he can exploit it actually gives your theory more overall validity.

I now see that Ben was truly trying to protect the island. He might have, or might be, changing his tune to this whole concept however. Seeing what kind of jealous person he is, as demonstrated by his obsession over Juliet, shows that he can be pretty dangerous when he is scorned. Ben already shot Locke because he could talk to Jacob. Now that he doesn’t have Juliet or Jacob’s favor, he’s likely to become unstable. Of course his obsession for Juliet is only because she looks so much like Annie, who was probably killed during the incident or a volcanic eruption.

I see now that Jacob is clearly the personified projection of the island. This seems to be mirroring the “Lord of the Ring” story in a way. Jacob/The Island used to talk to Ben Linus, and only him. The longer people possess the favor of Jacob/The Island, the more they become power hungry and crazy, just like those who held on to the ring (wouldn’t it be funny if Ben called Jacob his “precious”). Well Jacob is no longer happy with Ben and he tried to make it work with Locke, but he started getting all crazy. Now Jacob is trying to communicate to Hurley, which is why he is experiencing strange things and becoming good a horseshoes all of the sudden.

Now this introduces a new concept to your theory Wes, the “Keeper of the Island” who is chosen by the island and who’s power is relinquished just the same. The “Keeper” must guide those who protect the island and stop others from exploiting it or using it for evil. Who will eventually be the special little “hobbit” that the island is looking for? Who knows, but Walt seems to be coming to my mind at this moment.

And the big question of the episode…who is Ben’s man on the boat? We know that Ben told Locke that he had to sit down to hear who it was, and that Locke gave Ben a great deal of freedom after he explained it. I think that Ben’s man on the boat could be Ben, or at least someone that would introduce the same sort of mind-twist. We shall see. Any takes on this one?

What a thread! Wes, you've got some really good stuff here. Quite a good grasp of what is going on with all of the people in the story. I like how you've managed to keep it strait forward and provide the options for what is going on. I always try to explain the story to my friends with options that TPTB would be going for. Your options are similar to what my mind has concocted up to this point, with very small changes in details. If anything, you’ve helped add more options.


I always appreciate a kind word. Thanks very much.


Some questions I have about your theory of the island. It seems you've been barely scratching the surface of what the island really IS. I may have missed or didn’t comprehend certain parts while reading through this extensive thread,


I suppose I have only scratched the surface. The reason is that I usually try to only work out explanations that might be reasonably-well supported by clues we've actually seen. I've read a lot of mystery novels and am developing a reasonable knack for picking out the important clues and figuring out the mystery ahead of time. (I still make lots of mistakes, but I have made good progress...) With mystery novels, I'm learning to be very careful to separate the things I really, truly know from the things I'm surmising and being led to believe, because a good author will be good at misdirection. That being the case, I also try to avoid speculating too often on a possible story direction based merely on the fact that it "would be cool," beacuse that may cloud my ability to separate what's truly known from what's just surmisal.

So yes, there will be a lot of gaps in my "big picture;" if you see them, it's probably not because you missed something. I just didn't feel I had enough yet to work with to venture an explanation.


but I’m curious what your take is on the mystical properties of the island.


As far as the island's mystical properties go, I've deliberately held back. The explanation for this will be a bit involved, so I hope you'll bear with me... If you have a chance, check out "The Writer's Journey," By Christopher Volger. This book is almost like a "Bible" for TV and screenwriters, and it's heavily influenced the way TV and movies have been made for quite some time. Whether the writers are totally embracing it or not is unsure, but they'll almost certainly be very familiar with it. This is in turn based on a monumental work called "The Hero With a Thousand Faces," by Joseph Campbell, who was an academic who'd analyzed vast vast swaths of human mythology throughout history and all across the globe, and he found certain ideas and themes that recur over and over and over again among all peoples.

Campbell's work, and Volger's refocusing of it to the work of screenwriters, has resulted in a consciousness that there are certain ideas, themes, and story elements which just "resonate" among all types of people. One of Campbell's major themes, called "The Hero's Journey," has been repeated over and over and over again (with suitable variations) in Lost. My impression of the vast number of offhand references being made to ancient mythology, philosophers, and theology of multiple religions, at leat suggests to me that they're looking to find as many other "points of resonance" with the viewers that they can.

Sadly, I suspect that the writers won't end up actually doing anything with them.

I hope I'm wrong. They're a remarkably gifted bunch, and they may surprise us beyond all expectations. They're also human, and they have limitations. In any case, I haven't followed the enormous cloud of references they've spread around because my time is limited and I'm following the leads I feel will have the greatest chance of panning out. Still, I follow with great interest the research others do in this area, as there will probably be some "gems" worth digging out, and I'll enjoy them even if I didn't participate in unearthing them.


And for the scientific references…what is your take on this stuff? They have managed to use several names of scientists from various fields, such as Maxwell, Faraday, Minkowski, Hawking, etc


I have to say that I don't credit the writers with as much technical savvy as some do. As an engineer you may also have spotted technical gaffes. There are enough of them that I think we're supposed to just enjoy the ride without looking too closely at the framework. For example, I can't imagine anyone trying to hide an island that's operating a radio jammer, since a jammer is itself a very loud radio signal that screams out, "Hey... I'm over here!!!" I don't mind that oversight; I just expect that the writers don't quite understand how radio works, let alone more esoteric physics. Again, I could be wrong, and I do look with interest at the research done by others in this area. I'm playing a "numbers game," where I'm trying to flesh-out which leads have enough chance of paying off, and leaving the rest to others who've fleshed it out differently. Working together, we'll do just fine...


Which reminds me of another little question...what do you think is up with Cristian Sheppard? Do you think he is on the island alive? It's hard to tell for me, given my theories. The coffin was empty after the crash and we saw in one of the mobisodes that he told Vincent to go and wake up Jack after the crash as well.

I don't have the DVDs, but I'm told that Darlton said he was dead in one of the bonus features in the latest set. Someone please correct me if I've misstated this. I think that the various apparitions are manifestations of the island and that some will match the "magic box" metaphor that Ben gave Locke, and that some involve the island carrying out its own agenda. My thoughts for now would place the Christian apparition as fulfilling both of these options at the same time...

Wes,
Wow, what do you think of tonight's episode? Is Ben lying, or is it really Widmore's boat? If it is, does Ben work for someone or is it just him and the island?

We have to sort out what we've really been shown to us from what we may surmise that we've been shown. All that we can say we really know is that...

Widmore is of sufficient interest to Ben that Ben has created a file folder on him and kept it locked away.
Among Ben's "Widmore file" is a video that shows that Widmore can play rough.
Ben is smart enough not to use any of "the numbers" when he sets his safe combination.I have to say that among all of this, the only thing that's surprising is the fact that Widmore would stoop to "soil his own hands" by physically participating in his skulduggery. We have to temper this with the actual _source_ of the information; Ben. Given that Ben's track record for reliability isn't sterling, we need to consider a few more things.

In the past, Ben has given away nothing, and played his cards brilliantly. He has not been known for his truthfulness.
Ben gave it all up to Locke so easily. Ben is the guy who once seemed to consider it a fair trade to get beaten to a bloody pulp in exchange for being able to mess with someone's mind for a few seconds. Now he's willing to tell everything to Locke so that he can sleep in a comfortable bed?
If the writers wanted to actually show us Widmore's involvement in the freighter, it would have been far more effective for them to actually show us Widmore communicating with them. Involved with them. Showing a grainy video while Ben talks actually slows down the action of an already slow episode.
Merely having Ben make a claim about Widmore can easily be taken back in an instant.
Clearly Ben has arranged to negotiate for his own freedom, and he's done so entirely by making claims to Locke that he couldn't prove. It's all very Ben.I still suspect that Ben is working for Widmore. For Ben to have a file on him, he's clearly not Ben's buddy. (Does Ben have any?) And the video of Widmore could easily have been part of some "motivational info" Widmore sent to Ben whe he wanted Ben to do some job without screwing up. As to your question as to whether Ben is working for someone else or not, we might speculate that a yet unnamed person could fulfill this role, but not any others out of the "Big Three" characters we already know. Consider that...

Ben threw Hanso off the island in the purge. Hanso's gotta be an enemy.
Paik's daughter is on the island. If Paik was in charge, Sun would have "vanished" in the darkness, presumed a late night snack for Smokey or a polar bear. She's have "reappeared" in Sydney, with a cover story that would "show" that Oceanic made a mistake in saying she was ever on flight 815. This hasn't happened.Now, let's consider what might have happened if Widmore were really Ben's boss, if Ben has kept a file on his boss, and the real person behind the freighter has been Paik all along...

Ben would not disclose the real person behind the freighter to Locke, as he wants another chance to grab Sun as a hostage. (His first attempt failed with the failure of the commando raid, suposedly to abduct the pregnant women.) Making it clear that Paik is running the freighter would make Sun's danger obvious even to Locke, who might then obstruct Ben.
Ben would offer something to Locke that would allow Ben to operate freely, so that he can manage to abduct Sun, and deal better with the freighties.
The writers would hardly show Jin and Sun this season, so we wouldn't think about them too much.
Knowing that the "Big Boss" daughter is somewhere on the island, it's obvious that Charlotte and Faraday would have been trying to prevent, rather than cause, the gas release. (Though that might change if Sun were taken off the island...)
Ben's file on Widmore would make a very convincing decoy to Locke, making it appear that he was truly giving Locke some solid information on what's going on.
The info Ben gives to Locke would give the illusion of disclosing a common enemy, faced by Locke and Ben. This greatly strengthens the uneasy alliance that Ben has started.
Ben still has the real information held secret, so he's lost absolutely no bargaining chips.In short, we'd see exactly what we saw. In addition, Ben wouldn't be suddenly giving in to Locke; he'd be playing Locke like a fiddle; just the way he's done all along...
100%

I now see that Ben was truly trying to protect the island. He might have, or might be, changing his tune to this whole concept however. Seeing what kind of jealous person he is, as demonstrated by his obsession over Juliet, shows that he can be pretty dangerous when he is scorned. Ben already shot Locke because he could talk to Jacob. Now that he doesn’t have Juliet or Jacob’s favor, he’s likely to become unstable.


I hadn't thought to connect these things, but you're probably right. Ben is jealously protective of what is "his..."


Now Jacob is trying to communicate to Hurley, which is why he is experiencing strange things and becoming good a horseshoes all of the sudden.


Hurley is probably now in _deep_ trouble, since Ben knows he saw Jacob's cabin. Perhaps this is the start of the incident that made Hurley so sorry he went with Locke...


Now this introduces a new concept to your theory Wes, the “Keeper of the Island” who is chosen by the island and who’s power is relinquished just the same. The “Keeper” must guide those who protect the island and stop others from exploiting it or using it for evil. Who will eventually be the special little “hobbit” that the island is looking for? Who knows, but Walt seems to be coming to my mind at this moment.

And the big question of the episode…who is Ben’s man on the boat? We know that Ben told Locke that he had to sit down to hear who it was, and that Locke gave Ben a great deal of freedom after he explained it. I think that Ben’s man on the boat could be Ben, or at least someone that would introduce the same sort of mind-twist. We shall see. Any takes on this one?

As to Ben's "man on the boat..." There is one person who could easily be on the freighter, who Ben had time to "convert" to his side, who could have done the "mischief" on the freighter without arousing any suspicion, and who may even have a clandestine way of communicating with Ben. You've already suggested his name...

It's Walt.

Consider that...

Walt has been in Room 23 and may have been somewhat "persuaded" to cooperate with Ben.
Walt's stepfather said that strange things happen around Walt. We saw the mobisode of his drawing all the birds to collide with the window of the room he was in. Walt seems to have some "wild talent" to influence things at a distance. Even if he were securely locked up in the freighter, so as to avoid any suspicion, he might unlock doors or trash the radio room.
Walt seems to have a deep connection to the island. Ben knows how to communicate with the island. Perhaps with the island as a conduit, Ben and Walt could communicate? (I'd have once thought this one to be a little of a stretch, but now with the introduction of Ghostbuster Miles, I'm not absolutely embarassed to toss it out as a possibility...)Now, Walt isn't scheduled to make an appearance, but he wasn't scheduled in the S3 finale either, but there he was. Alternately, Michael could appear and refer to Walt, who's locked up elsewhere, (I can hear it now... Waaaaaaalt!!!):biggrin: and who's causing all sorts of crazy things to happen. This might make sense, as MDK has "grown up" and might not be easily used on the show anymore, except in flashforwards...

I still suspect that Ben is working for Widmore. For Ben to have a file on him, he's clearly not Ben's buddy. (Does Ben have any?) And the video of Widmore could easily have been part of some "motivational info" Widmore sent to Ben whe he wanted Ben to do some job without screwing up.

While we were watching the epi, I mentioned your Three Kings theory to my friends, and encouraged them to read it. I love the possibility you outlined above, since it'd be our natural assumption to believe what Ben is showing us. But, as you observed, Ben only seems to use information to manipulate, to "tell people what they want to hear."

Locke clearly wants to "hear" who their foe is. To put a face to the faceless opposition. And Ben gives him that, and reels ol' Locke in, yet again.

I wonder if Ben was working for Widmore at one point, and has since gone rogue, thus cutting Widmore off from the island? Widmore would then need to jump through the plot hoops of getting Desmond to help find the island, and create the incidents that led to the disabling of the Swan and Looking Glass in order to make the island visible, and accessible again, albeit in a limited way. I suppose he's made this attempt at least one other time (Henry Gale?) So, Ben would be wary.

Ben's monologue to Locke about the potential of the island as a pilgrimage site seemed to have a note of truth to it. Is this what he really fears? Do the Three Kings expect to be able to keep the island a secret indefinitely, in order to have their way with it?

I wonder if Ben was working for Widmore at one point, and has since gone rogue, thus cutting Widmore off from the island? Widmore would then need to jump through the plot hoops of getting Desmond to help find the island, and create the incidents that led to the disabling of the Swan and Looking Glass in order to make the island visible, and accessible again, albeit in a limited way. I suppose he's made this attempt at least one other time (Henry Gale?) So, Ben would be wary.


While he could have gone rogue, he'd have placed himself in a horrendously sticky and isolated situation. (Of course, it might explain why Locke seems to be at the point of having eaten all the livestock and is now working on the rabbits...) But I do suspect he still _is_ working for Widmore, though not happily so. Ben would seem to have sold whatever there was of his soul in some way or other, and Widmore owns him. The video was most likely a little "motivational reminder" to Ben, to remind him to stay in line. The fact that it was taped on a cassette marked "Red Sox" might suggest that the copy in the safe was a very recent one.


Ben's monologue to Locke about the potential of the island as a pilgrimage site seemed to have a note of truth to it. Is this what he really fears? Do the Three Kings expect to be able to keep the island a secret indefinitely, in order to have their way with it?

I was wondering whether that seemed one more example of Ben trying to talk up how "special" Locke is because people would want to come to see him if they knew his story. But if the island does truly contain the "magic box" that creates things that Ben spoke of, then it could be the key to creating unimaginable wealth for anyone who might be able to control, or even duplicate it. (I've also wondered whether the Orchid Video doesn't show a failed attempt to do just that...)

Hey Wes, thanks for responding, nice to have someone to mull over this stuff with.

You are offering a lot of good explanations as to why Ben is still working for Widmore. I agree that Ben is a master manipulator and he does seem to be one step ahead of everyone at all times. I understand that you want to hold tight to your theory that Ben is working for, and thus financed by, Widmore. It just seems that if Widmore DID have control of the island, at any time, it would have been far more destroyed and exploited by now. I think that as soon as King Widmore or King Paik would have control of the island, it would be the beginning of its end. Widmore would ignore the call of Jacob and the island.

Paik is definitely LOST when it comes to finding the island, and I agree that this is what the watch was for, etc… I think that Widmore is actually the owner of the freighter, as Ben says. Naomi is a “special” girl who is told by the island that she must round up the freighter 4 and bring them there; they are on Jacob’s list. In doing so, she becomes employed by Widmore as a recruiter of talented scientists that will help him discover and harness the powers of the island. I wanted to believe Wes so much about the Widmore/Ben connection, and I originally thought that the freighter belonged to DHARMA, due to all of the scientific experiments. It seems feasible now that if any of the Kings want to harness the powers of the island, they would need a team of scientists.

Whatever the case may be, not only does King Widmore seem to know that the island exists and possesses special powers, he also seems to know every little detail about the DHARMA initiative and its downfall. Somehow, Widmore (or whoever owns the freighter) knows about Ben and the purge. Miles not only knew every little detail about Kate, but he also knew who Ben was as well as “what he can do.” Now this could either be a result of the people on the freighter doing all of their homework, or the fact that Miles knows everything because of his special powers. What I’m getting at is that the knowledge that these freighters have about the island’s inhabitants, seems like knowledge that only people from DHARMA would have. This means that someone from DHARMA leaked to someone from King Widmores people or that the freighter actually belongs to DHARMA and Ben is lying to Locke. Something tells me that you’re going to like the latter option Wes.

Ben has also become a little unstable, so hopefully he’s on top of all of his mind games. We know that he can’t control everything, people are always free to make their own choices, but his job seems to be about leading people to make certain choices. His “Achilles heal” seems to be mind manipulation when the subject of love is involved, I wonder if it might prove to be his downfall. We can’t forget that he has had at least 1 true friend, Annie. After that, who knows.

On Charles Widmore, it seems we see him in a somewhat different light every time he appears. He seemed fairly affable to Desmond until he found that he was dating his daughter, then he’s a high society business man jerk. Next time we see Widmore, he thinks he has already defeated Desmond, so he treats him with a little less disgust and a little more pity. Now in this last meeting, we see him engaging in his own “skullduggery” as Wes calls it. This shows him to be a different sort of King, one who wants those who oppose him to look into his eye and see who they are answering to. Gives him a much darker tone, I like it.

As for Hurley and the island, good point on the fact that he might be in trouble. I think that when Ben and Locke find out that the island is trying to communicate to Hurley, they both might be upset. I’d like to think that Locke would not try to oppose Hurley, but work with him and the wise choices of Jacob instead. I’m not sure about all of the details, but I think there is something here, and I don't think that Hurley would want this responsibility, he would probably think that it would bring him bad luck. There might be a connection between the fact that there is a huge bird flying around screaming “Hurley!” and Walt can summon birds to come die at his window.

Ben’s guy on the boat…Walt?! I’m not sure about that one, but it could be true. Seems as though Ben didn’t have much luck getting Walt to obey when he had him in room 23 Whoever it is, it’s hard to tell what he would be doing on the freighter. There has been an interesting post here that suggest that Harper was actually a projection of Ben, which is interesting when you see her scene talking to Juliet and think of her as Ben. It's almost uncanny. Maybe the person on the freighter is a projection of Ben or Walt, or maybe both are on there.

Consider this…trashing the radio room, that would be an act that impeded on Sayid and Desmond’s goal of contacting Penny, while opening the door in the sick room would be an act the helped them. It’s hard to distinguish for sure right now, but do you guys think that Ben’s man on the boat was helping Desmond and Sayid or hurting them?

OK Wes, so I understand that your trying to present your theory with as much factual information as possible, and that’s why you don’t delve too deep into the island’s mystical properties. I also agree that the writers of LOST are doing a lot of misleading, but there are some themes that just seem to present themselves over and over again. It’s already known that Darlton uses characters names VERY intentionally, so don’t you have some conclusions that you can draw up from the names of mythological and theological characters? From Linus and Apollo to Cerburus and Abaddon, I think these names are telling us a lot, and if not, I would find it quite disappointing.

I'm just interested in what your theory evolves to when you give in to some of the "not necessarily factual" information that we are presented with. Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer that one should make facts support theories rather than threories supporting facts, but I think the writers intend for people to use their imaginations a little bit, it's part of the fun. So how bout it Wes, what's your hunch on the mystic properties of the island, just in a nutshell?

These writers are definitely a talented bunch, but of course no one is perfect. We’ve all had to accept the small inconsistencies and just enjoy the ride on a lot of things. The fact that they hint at theoretical sciences goes to show that not all of the details are going to follow real world practices. As an engineer, it is disappointing how they try to pass off these concepts that would never make sense in the real world, but hey, I’m glad that they try to dabble with these concepts at all. I’m nerdy enough to where if I see an inconsistency I will point it out, just to be a nerd, but then I’ll let go of it.

I just really like how they use so many themes from so many epic stories and mix it all together to make LOST. There is no doubt that every writer on the LOST drawing table has read “The Writer’s Journey” from cover to cover. This series has this stuff written all over it. The writers have managed to mix in elements of all the great stories: The Bible, Stephen King novels, J.R.R. Tolken novels, J.K. Rowlings novels, Stories by Homer, Shakespeare and more. All of these are timeless stories that possess this “point of resonance” that you are speaking of. LOST may very well be the next greatest story ever told, but they must also contain elements of a good story. Despite a bitter hint of tragedy, there must be some sort of resolution and happiness to the end, but that is not written in stone. Either way, I would be sorely disappointed if the writers do nothing with all of these wonderful themes that they have introduced.

This is looking better and better Wes.

The only King missing now from an Island presence is Paik. Yes, Hanso's influence were finally seen in last night's episode. Thanks to lucky4me8 for the eagle eyed screencap:

Check out Harper's shelf...Especially this letter of recommendation...Hanso (http://bp3.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9CzR9CKxBI/AAAAAAAAAPo/5pYygiRLx7c/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+09-09-519.jpg) Juliet's therapist did a stint at THF!!!

So we have tangible proof now THF was known on the Island. King Hanso, King Widmore...when will King Paik show up?

One last thing.

I think Ben has both Walt and Michael on the boat as moles. There has been to many deal making with Ben that we didnt get to see. What he offered Kate during breakfast. What he offered Sayid to make him eliminate Mr W's associates off Island. What kinda deal did he make with Walt, or with Michael for that matter?

I think Ben sent them there with a story about him knowing their arrival. M or W tell them Ben wants to gas the Island when they arrive. So they prepare Dan and Charlotte to avoid the gas leak. All the while, it was Ben's intention to purge the freighties and the losties that didnt want to stay on the Island. Ben already has his new minions in othersville, and his family at the temple. Those waiting rescue at the beach where instead waiting for a lungfull of deadly gas. Ben is the one who planted the seed that the freighties were going to kill every one on the Island. And to make sure it DID look like they did it, he rigged up the Tempest Station himself.

I dont know if Ben is a good guy after all...

Whatta you think there Wes?
Eric

You are offering a lot of good explanations as to why Ben is still working for Widmore. I agree that Ben is a master manipulator and he does seem to be one step ahead of everyone at all times. I understand that you want to hold tight to your theory that Ben is working for, and thus financed by, Widmore. It just seems that if Widmore DID have control of the island, at any time, it would have been far more destroyed and exploited by now. I think that as soon as King Widmore or King Paik would have control of the island, it would be the beginning of its end. Widmore would ignore the call of Jacob and the island.


First, understand that my theory was not built by ignoring contradictions; in fact, they're extraordinarily helpful in eliminating whole classes of possibilities, and narrrowing things down. But what we saw was far from a contradiction; Ben's "revelation" was so -- out of character. Consider that he first says that he suddenly wants to be more comfortable so he'll tell Locke what he wants to know. This is from the guy who doesn't mind getting beaten up just as long as he can mess with your mind. Locke finally "wises up" on the fact that Ben lies. So then Ben says he'll show locke, but what he shows him is so ambiguous that it doesn't really show anything. It's still based entirely on Ben's word. Locke, true to his original character, shows that while he may have grown a trace of brains, he hasn't grown all that much, and still swallows Ben's whole story. This is classic Ben and classic Locke...

Now, Ben almost certainly needs more freedom so that he can do the things Ben does so well, but he can't tell Locke that. And Locke doesn't figure it out, and Ben gets his freedom. Ben's won that round because Locke is so easy for him to manipulate. Why should he have to give real information to Locke? He's pointed out that Widmore must be significant, but he has no reason to have told him why.

As far as what would happen to the island if Widmore were in charge, I think you may be second-guessing what Widmore actually wants. We're in agreement that Widmore wants something from the island, but what his intentions are is totally up in the air; I'll give an example that's not part of my theory, but just one example that I've used before...

The "magic box that produces things" that Ben spoke of could be the key to unimaginable wealth for anyone who could harness or even duplicate it. Research on this could be almost invisible to the casual observer. It's also something that could easily be of interest to any of the Three Kings -- in fact, I have a half-suspicion that the Orchid Video is a record of a failed experiment in this very area...


I wanted to believe Wes so much about the Widmore/Ben connection, and I originally thought that the freighter belonged to DHARMA, due to all of the scientific experiments. It seems feasible now that if any of the Kings want to harness the powers of the island, they would need a team of scientists.


I'm suspecting that if Dharma/Hanso was able to acquire scientists, that the other two Kings could also round up a goodly group of them as well. Most all of the companies I've ever worked for or done business with have had scientists on their staff -- often lots of them. They're not all that hard to find...


Whatever the case may be, not only does King Widmore seem to know that the island exists and possesses special powers, he also seems to know every little detail about the DHARMA initiative and its downfall. Somehow, Widmore (or whoever owns the freighter) knows about Ben and the purge. Miles not only knew every little detail about Kate, but he also knew who Ben was as well as “what he can do.” Now this could either be a result of the people on the freighter doing all of their homework, or the fact that Miles knows everything because of his special powers. What I’m getting at is that the knowledge that these freighters have about the island’s inhabitants, seems like knowledge that only people from DHARMA would have. This means that someone from DHARMA leaked to someone from King Widmores people or that the freighter actually belongs to DHARMA and Ben is lying to Locke. Something tells me that you’re going to like the latter option Wes.


Any plausible explanation is one that's still on the table. Since TLE showed us that both Widmore and Paik were involved in creating the Dharma infrastructure on the island, they both know a _lot_ about it; we just don't know what the limits are. It's comon for subcontractors to be given large volumes of info after signing a nondisclosure agreement. In the real world, industrial spies are employed, and on television they're all over the place. They could easily fill in any information gaps, though I'm not sure that anything we've seen so far would need them to go that far.


Ben’s guy on the boat…Walt?! I’m not sure about that one, but it could be true. Seems as though Ben didn’t have much luck getting Walt to obey when he had him in room 23 Whoever it is, it’s hard to tell what he would be doing on the freighter. There has been an interesting post here that suggest that Harper was actually a projection of Ben, which is interesting when you see her scene talking to Juliet and think of her as Ben. It's almost uncanny. Maybe the person on the freighter is a projection of Ben or Walt, or maybe both are on there.


Again, we just don't know what success Ben had with Room 23; all we've seen were some intermediate steps. The final result is totally unknown, so far.


Consider this…trashing the radio room, that would be an act that impeded on Sayid and Desmond’s goal of contacting Penny, while opening the door in the sick room would be an act the helped them. It’s hard to distinguish for sure right now, but do you guys think that Ben’s man on the boat was helping Desmond and Sayid or hurting them?


Don't forget that the radio room was trashed days before Des and Sayid got there. That has the purpose of harming the FREIGHTIES -- something Ben would approve of. Causing mischief on the boat by aiding Des and Sayid would also disrupt the freighties. So the actions were not to assist or harm Des and Sayid, they were done to assist Ben...


so don’t you have some conclusions that you can draw up from the names of mythological and theological characters? From Linus and Apollo to Cerburus and Abaddon, I think these names are telling us a lot, and if not, I would find it quite disappointing.


Sorry... no ideas whatsoever...


So how bout it Wes, what's your hunch on the mystic properties of the island, just in a nutshell?


See above. Thanks for the note...
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Check out Harper's shelf...Especially this letter of recommendation...Hanso (http://bp3.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9CzR9CKxBI/AAAAAAAAAPo/5pYygiRLx7c/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+09-09-519.jpg) Juliet's therapist did a stint at THF!!!

So we have tangible proof now THF was known on the Island. King Hanso, King Widmore...when will King Paik show up?


Well now, Hanso sponsored the Dharma initiative, so we know that Hanso has been involved there. Consider that when Ben showed Locke the pit of Dharma corpses, Ben said he was one of the ones smart enough not to end up in that pit. There are apparently others. Harper may be another. Tom is probably a third, as in the scene when he gave his "This is our island" speech, he included an Alvar Hanso quote that was also given in the "Hanso Foundation" commercials that started airing shortly after.

[FONT=Times New Roman]I now see that Ben was truly trying to protect the island. He might have, or might be, changing his tune to this whole concept however. Seeing what kind of jealous person he is, as demonstrated by his obsession over Juliet, shows that he can be pretty dangerous when he is scorned. Ben already shot Locke because he could talk to Jacob. Now that he doesn’t have Juliet or Jacob’s favor, he’s likely to become unstable. Of course his obsession for Juliet is only because she looks so much like Annie, who was probably killed during the incident or a volcanic eruption.

I see now that Jacob is clearly the personified projection of the island. This seems to be mirroring the “Lord of the Ring” story in a way. Jacob/The Island used to talk to Ben Linus, and only him. The longer people possess the favor of Jacob/The Island, the more they become power hungry and crazy, just like those who held on to the ring (wouldn’t it be funny if Ben called Jacob his “precious”). Well Jacob is no longer happy with Ben and he tried to make it work with Locke, but he started getting all crazy. Now Jacob is trying to communicate to Hurley, which is why he is experiencing strange things and becoming good a horseshoes all of the sudden.

Now this introduces a new concept to your theory Wes, the “Keeper of the Island” who is chosen by the island and who’s power is relinquished just the same. The “Keeper” must guide those who protect the island and stop others from exploiting it or using it for evil. Who will eventually be the special little “hobbit” that the island is looking for? Who knows, but Walt seems to be coming to my mind at this moment.

And the big question of the episode…who is Ben’s man on the boat? We know that Ben told Locke that he had to sit down to hear who it was, and that Locke gave Ben a great deal of freedom after he explained it. I think that Ben’s man on the boat could be Ben, or at least someone that would introduce the same sort of mind-twist. We shall see. Any takes on this one?

I believe Ben is manipulating the Island and convincing the others that he is the chosen one. When Locke shows up the others begin to realize that perhaps Ben is not who he said he was. I believe Ben is manipulating the smoke as well. Ben killed Eko not the Island. Why else would "Jacob" ask Locke to help him?

I believe Walt is also being manipulated to convince Locke to help keep Dharma off the Island. Obvisously Dharma isn't good for the Island, but neither is Ben. I think Ben and Walt have the same special gift. But I think talking too much on the "gift" could be a spoiler.
HOWEVER, I believe it will be Hurley who comes to the rescue in the end. GO HURLEY!
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Someone mentioned that Charlotte was offered a ticket on flight 815. Does anyone have a reference for this?

Someone mentioned that Charlotte was offered a ticket on flight 815. Does anyone have a reference for this?

If it was me who said Charlotte was offered a ticket, it was the result of typing too fast. It was Claire given the ticket by Richard Malkin, who then told her she couldn't take any other flight. Malkin's activities with the supposed "death" of his daughter also caused Eko to rearrange his flight plans, after which Malkin told Eko it was all a hoax by his wife, making sure Eko didn't miss the "special" flight to the island. Also, the tickets for Michael and Walt were given to Michael by Walt's step father. Locke's ticket was given to him by the "walkabout" agency. Sawyer's ticket was given to him by he Australian official that was deporting him. Kate's ticket was selected for her also, of course.

A lot of people had tickets given to them or had things suspiciously "arranged" for them to get on the flight to the island. Among other special arrangements, Jack was allowed to to transport an undocumented corpse, which suggests he was given "special" approval by someone. Also, Hurley was allowed on the plane after the gate had closed, which should never have been allowed.

All of this is circumstantial of course, but there's a lot here that's consistent with the idea presented in this thread that flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island to bring some "special" people there against their wills.

(small point, but:)
There has been an interesting post here that suggest that Harper was actually a projection of Ben, which is interesting when you see her scene talking to Juliet and think of her as Ben. It's almost uncanny.
Just noticed that last night during a rewatch (what, you guys don't watch nightly? ;) ). If that mention you're talking to doesn't mention this, it's kind of interesting. Harper says two phrases that are repeats, specifically:
- ben's 'exactly where he wants to be' (copying miles)
- 'everyone on the island will die' (copying ben)

Not that I think there'd be much disagreement on something fishy there given the whispers, the timing, the disappearance, etc, but interesting nonetheless..

Wes, great memory about the line thing and Tom...

I had forgotten the Hanso Foundation beeing hinted at. I'm getting...old. Audibly challenged. Alright...I just forgot the darn line...:ntworthy: :rotflmao2:

Eric

I don't think we know nearly enough yet to sort all this out yet. BTW, to Widmore, Paik, Hanso and the Others, I'd add the U.S. Government (and/or another military-based interest). The beauty of the show is that we've got a fantastic sci-fi mystery overlaying a fantastic espionage saga overlaying a fantastic character drama. With two and half seasons left, it'd be a drag if we DID know what was going on, no?

The big espionage-related questions, for me anyway, are

1.) how much does each entity know about what the island is and how it works
2.) who's working for whom, and who are the double agents, turncoats, etc.
3.) what are their histories, motives and goals

Even if the freighties are officially all Widmore guys (I tend to think this is one of those cases where Ben gets more leverage telling an 80% truth than an 80% lie) I think it's safe to say they have pretty scattered loyalties!

On another topic, how much of a tool is Locke being? Lordy I hope there's something he knows that I don't (other than who Ben's man on the boat is, which is surely Michael at this point?).

If it was me who said Charlotte was offered a ticket, it was the result of typing too fast. It was Claire given the ticket by Richard Malkin, who then told her she couldn't take any other flight. Malkin's activities with the supposed "death" of his daughter also caused Eko to rearrange his flight plans, after which Malkin told Eko it was all a hoax by his wife, making sure Eko didn't miss the "special" flight to the island. Also, the tickets for Michael and Walt were given to Michael by Walt's step father. Locke's ticket was given to him by the "walkabout" agency. Sawyer's ticket was given to him by he Australian official that was deporting him. Kate's ticket was selected for her also, of course.

A lot of people had tickets given to them or had things suspiciously "arranged" for them to get on the flight to the island. Among other special arrangements, Jack was allowed to to transport an undocumented corpse, which suggests he was given "special" approval by someone. Also, Hurley was allowed on the plane after the gate had closed, which should never have been allowed.

All of this is circumstantial of course, but there's a lot here that's consistent with the idea presented in this thread that flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island to bring some "special" people there against their wills.

If, and just an if, Christian is actually alive do you think he could be the person who sabatoged the plane? I believe it was Widmore behind the plane crash, and perhaps Christian was recruited to help?

Even if the freighties are officially all Widmore guys (I tend to think this is one of those cases where Ben gets more leverage telling an 80% truth than an 80% lie) I think it's safe to say they have pretty scattered loyalties!


I think this would depend on a presumption that Ben's telling the truth for once would have no detrimental consequences to Ben's plans. If that were the case, then you might make an 80% case that Ben would tell the truth so as not to risk his credibility and a 20% case that he'd lie because playing Locke like a fiddle just seems to delight him.

But if the facts related to the actual truth might affect Locke's choice to let Ben go free, it's a different matter altogether. In that case, we might make a 100% case that Ben would lie to Locke...
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If, and just an if, Christian is actually alive do you think he could be the person who sabatoged the plane? I believe it was Widmore behind the plane crash, and perhaps Christian was recruited to help?

I'm pretty sure that in one of their podcasts, Darlton verified that the plane crashed because of Desmond's goof.
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On another topic, how much of a tool is Locke being?

To me, the fact that Locke has completely swallowed Ben's story about Widmore after simply being shown a video with no visible connection to the freighter whatsoever suggests that he hasn't grown any brains yet. It's amusing because Locke first refused to take Ben at his word, then Ben shows him a video with no evidence that it's in any way relevant, and then suddenly Locke takes him at his word.

It's as though Locke is now finally aware that he's total putty in Ben's hands and he acknowledges this, and then totally forgets it and becomes putty anyway. It's classic Locke and classic Ben...

BTW, this would be true even if it turned out that Ben was telling the truth for once. Locke still was swayed with absolutely no evidence that what he was hearing was or was not truthful. And this from a man who shot him just a few days ago...

I think this would depend on a presumption that Ben's telling the truth for once would have no detrimental consequences to Ben's plans. If that were the case, then you might make an 80% case that Ben would tell the truth so as not to risk his credibility and a 20% case that he'd lie because playing Locke like a fiddle just seems to delight him.

But if the facts related to the actual truth might affect Locke's choice to let Ben go free, it's a different matter altogether. In that case, we might make a 100% case that Ben would lie to Locke...
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I'm now officially 100% confused!:undecide: :) I guess what I meant was, Ben's a pretty dependable liar, but it's just as devious (and sometimes more so) to tell partial truths than outright lies. I'm quite sure Ben is lying to Locke, but the question is, about what?

It's as though Locke is now finally aware that he's total putty in Ben's hands and he acknowledges this, and then totally forgets it and becomes putty anyway. It's classic Locke and classic Ben...

BTW, this would be true even if it turned out that Ben was telling the truth for once. Locke still was swayed with absolutely no evidence that what he was hearing was or was not truthful.

Agreed. Though I really HOPE there is more to it than this-- from Locke's POV, I mean. So Ben shows him a video of one nobody getting beat up by another nobody, with a third nobody seemingly in control-- which means exactly what?!? Nothing. However, there's also the file. Locke saw the details of Sawyer's life in one of those red files, so he knows there's trustworthy info in there (at least, there was that time!). What we don't know is, what's in the Widmore file that Ben gave to Locke? It's frustratingly possible that Locke knows more about Widmore than we do at this point, despite any and all lies-- we just can't know yet.

I'm now officially 100% confused!:undecide: :) I guess what I meant was, Ben's a pretty dependable liar, but it's just as devious (and sometimes more so) to tell partial truths than outright lies. I'm quite sure Ben is lying to Locke, but the question is, about what?


I guess that's because I was 100% confused about what you were saying. I thought you were saying there was maybe an 80% chance Ben was telling the truth. In that context, my answer would make sense, if there's any reason to revisit it. My apologies...

My guess on what he's lying about is based on the idea that the one actually behind the freighter is Sun's father, and that the failed raid to abduct the pregnant women was actually an attempt to grab Sun as a hostage. If this were true then Ben wouldn't want to tell Locke the truth about the freighter because then even Locke could figure out that it would put Sun in danger again if Ben were allowed some freedom. Ben wants to be free to do his mischief, so Locke has to be under the illusion that the man who just shot him a few days ago must be trustworthy. (Locke may be a gullible fool, but even his naivete shouldn't be trusted to remain absolutely consistent...)


Agreed. Though I really HOPE there is more to it than this-- from Locke's POV, I mean. So Ben shows him a video of one nobody getting beat up by another nobody, with a third nobody seemingly in control-- which means exactly what?!? Nothing. However, there's also the file. Locke saw the details of Sawyer's life in one of those red files, so he knows there's trustworthy info in there (at least, there was that time!). What we don't know is, what's in the Widmore file that Ben gave to Locke? It's frustratingly possible that Locke knows more about Widmore than we do at this point, despite any and all lies-- we just can't know yet.

Locke most likely knows a lot of things we don't -- and vice versa. I'm mildly expecting that we'll be finding out more about Widmore reasonably soon...

Wes,

You should check out the recent posts in the LOyal to the queST thread about the ECHELON (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON) surveillance system, and inteeligence gathering. There's some interesting discussion about surveillance/spying that (to me) suggests a strong connection to Ben's vast knowledge of background info on people in the show.

Imagine a "Total Information Awareness" system that can operate across time. :cool:

Something like that would be a powerful tool/weapon in the hands of someone like Widmore of Paik.

quick summary or link to that discussion? Echelon is a real life intelligence gathering venture if I'm recalling correctly, is that just being vaguely compared to ben's intelligence, or 'magic box'?

quick summary or link to that discussion? Echelon is a real life intelligence gathering venture if I'm recalling correctly, is that just being vaguely compared to ben's intelligence, or 'magic box'?

As is often the case on that thread, the discussion kicked off with Tiberius' post (#1192 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1810658&postcount=1192)), his follow-up, (#1198 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1810694&postcount=1198)) directly references ECHELON. The LOyal to the queST thread often features the discussion that is ignited by Tiberius' posts, which present interesting insights about the show. So, the responses to the posts are more important in some ways, because that's where the connections to LOST are often made. Jane_eris' posts (#1231 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1811429&postcount=1231) & #1233 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1811443&postcount=1233)) are particularly interesting for background detail.

Tiberius posted again at #1280, which sort of sent the thread off on another path...

I think my statement about imagining a "Total Information Awareness" system pretty much sums it up. In the context of Wes's great thread, I'd say that's something the Three Kings would find worth fighting for.

so you're saying the 3 kings would be interested in a vague, general, total awareness info system?
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(sorry I didn't research whatever it is you're talking about, the first 2 links you put in there lead to nothing explanatory..)

So, the responses to the posts are more important in some ways, because that's where the connections to LOST are often made. Jane_eris' posts (#1231 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1811429&postcount=1231) & #1233 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1811443&postcount=1233)) are particularly interesting for background detail.

so you're saying the 3 kings would be interested in a vague, general, total awareness info system?
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(sorry I didn't research whatever it is you're talking about, the first 2 links you put in there lead to nothing explanatory..)

Spectacular waste of bandwidth there, JB. Try again. ;)

What does Widmore want from Ben?

re: above somewhere...It's like the relationship between Ben and Locke is like Charlie Brown and Lucy. She always gets him to try to kick the ball no matter how many times she pulls the ball away at the last minute.

JB,

I was looking for motives that the Three Kings might have for being so interested in the island. The general direction of the LOyal to the queST thread that began with the Tiberius post (#1192) I linked and ended at another Tiberius post (#1280), contained info that, to me, suggested a possible motive. Rather than restate all the points that came up in those posts, I suggested reading that section.

The choice is yours, depending on how compelling you think the possible motive is.

My take on the motive was that there might be a kind of Total Information Awareness system on the island. Evidence for that (again, in my mind) is Ben's vast knowledge of people and events around him, a seemingly supernatural awareness.

Sorry for my overly-snarky earlier reply. That's all I have to add to the discussion though.

:frown: (small point, but:)
There has been an interesting post here that suggest that Harper was actually a projection of Ben, which is interesting when you see her scene talking to Juliet and think of her as Ben. It's almost uncanny.
Just noticed that last night during a rewatch (what, you guys don't watch nightly? ;) ). If that mention you're talking to doesn't mention this, it's kind of interesting. Harper says two phrases that are repeats, specifically:
- ben's 'exactly where he wants to be' (copying miles)
- 'everyone on the island will die' (copying ben)

Not that I think there'd be much disagreement on something fishy there given the whispers, the timing, the disappearance, etc, but interesting nonetheless..


Gee, good theory. Perhaps Ben made up this little society in his mind? However, when he was living at the camp as a child the "Natives" attacked the Dharma camp. When he ran into the woods he heard people whispering and then Richard appears. I'm thinking someone else is making "smokey" appear as people. Maybe Richard isn't real and the Island is fooling Ben as well. The "Natives" could be people/children who have crashed there in the past and the Island/Richard have manipulated into service?
So, can the smoke be manipulated by special ones?

Not going to read every comment here, so if I am repeating my apologies. First, yes, nice addition and I liked your style instead of Just Another Big Theory.

But really I wanted to say that from the very beginning when I started reading this it was with the voice of James Earl Jones in my head.

Yeah, nothing more to add, just thought you should know that is what your writing style inspired in my head.

maybe Jacob is a child who sometimes inhabits Ben.

My take on the motive was that there might be a kind of Total Information Awareness system on the island. Evidence for that (again, in my mind) is Ben's vast knowledge of people and events around him, a seemingly supernatural awareness.

I like that, and agree with it for the most part, although I had just been trying to ascertain more specifics from you (and sorry as well if I came across wrong ;) ).

I guess I see an infinite amount of possibilities on info to be gained by having any kind of teleportation device, I mean something as simple as just sending your 2004 consciousness back to 2000, knowing what the mega lotto jackpot #'s were, would make you unbelievably rich. It seems to me that, given how vague we're currently understanding the island, the information potentials are limitless and couldn't really be refined by us just yet. I'll need to check that thread out sometime to see if it's got what I'm looking for :biggrin: .
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:frown:

Gee, good theory. Perhaps Ben made up this little society in his mind? However, when he was living at the camp as a child the "Natives" attacked the Dharma camp. When he ran into the woods he heard people whispering and then Richard appears. I'm thinking someone else is making "smokey" appear as people. Maybe Richard isn't real and the Island is fooling Ben as well. The "Natives" could be people/children who have crashed there in the past and the Island/Richard have manipulated into service?
So, can the smoke be manipulated by special ones?
...why the sad face at the top!? :biggrin:

maybe Jacob is a child who sometimes inhabits Ben.
anything's possible as I cannot tell you that your idea is wrong - can you elaborate on why you think it's right?

...why the sad face at the top!? :biggrin:



Gee, not sure how that got there! Maybe I pushed a button during my frantic typing. :undecide:

Even weeks later now I believe that Wesb has got the story down more correctly than anyone. He has managed to keep this story quite grounded, despite the urges to take it to a level of being preposterous, which I myself can be guilty of at times. Before last night's episode, I had all sorts of crazy theories about Micheal and how he got on the freighter, involving going back in time after leaving at the end of season 2. Even if time travel does come into play in the future, the writers are not ready to blow the lid on that one yet, and I'm glad for it really.

The fact that it is Ben Linus and Captain Gault (who is not to be trusted) that are telling us that it's Widmore's boat, tells us that it could all be one big lie. Even if it is Widmore's freighter and Widmore is in fact after Ben Linus, it could be because of a former alliance between them gone wrong. It would make sense that after the failsafe key was turned and communications were lost, Widmore got mad at his employee, Ben Linus, and is coming to make sure he will be getting a return on his investments.

Remember back in season 2 when the survivors had Ben locked in the hatch, and Ben was so scared about his boss, who is a very powerful man and would kill him if he didn't do what what he was told? Maybe Ben was right, and maybe this man that Ben was talking about is Widmore. Since Ben basically talked Locke into destroying the Swan station and the submarine, perhaps Ben is using Locke as a tool to help break free from Charles Widmore. Thing is, Ben has worked the perfect long con on Locke by making him think that his actions were his own idea, when he is actually just Ben's tool. Some might argue that Ben was talking about Jacob when he mentioned his boss, but it seems to me like Ben has Jacob trapped in that cabin and is using him as a tool to manipulate the Others. Why else would Jacob ask Locke to help him?

Interesting to see how Micheal has given up so easily on Walt now. This is another look at the other side of the looking glass. Micheal went from a passionate man who would do anything to get his son back from anyone to a broken man who can be held away from his son by just his mother. That's not the Micheal we saw on the island. Seems that when someone does comes back from the island, they are very different. It's like it's not even that person, but their bad twin.

Interesting final scene there. People are shooting at Carl, Danielle and Alex. They haven't shot Alex yet, so there's a chance that it is the rest of Ben's people and they have been ordered to take out Carl and Danielle, which is perfectly within the realm of Ben's desires. I'm really not positive about who is shooting at them though. Since Alex stood up and said "I'm Ben's daughter," it would lead us to believe that it is the rest of the Others that are shooting at them. If I know these writers as well as I think I do, this is just to mislead us. On the other hand, I don't think it's anyone from the freighter either. Any thoughts guys?

Even weeks later now I believe that Wesb has got the story down more correctly than anyone.

Yeah, db, I agree. Great ideas in your post, btw! I love your insight on Ben's boss being Widmore (since we've always assumed he was referring to Jacob at the time.) And the "bad twin" off the island thing is great too.

The island provides a great situation for isolating the characters from all the attachments that lead to their self-conceptions. Self-conceptions that we've seen are pretty problematic. Of course, on the island, they've had the opportunity to remake themselves, which some of them have chosen to do, and others haven't. Going back to the "mainland" means they can either continue with their "remade" selves, or revert to their "old" selves...

Thanks HV. Interesting thought that they have the CHOICE to be what they want to be when they leave the island. Seems in TTLG that Kate managed to pull herself together, while Jack was a mess. Hurley was a mess in his FF but he seemed OK in Sun's. Sayid was clearly not having a good time in his FF.

There has been some question as to who the last of the oceanic 6 are, since Jin's grave-site said he died on 9/22/04 and Aaron was technically in utero it could be either. I'm going to move forward on the assumption that it is Aaron, mainly because there was a LOST trailer on last night telling us that we know who all of the oceanic 6 are, and it flashed images of Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Aaron. That's enough proof for me. So we don't really know at this point if Aaron is bothered by not being on the island.

I'm going to try and line up the time line of the flash-forwards that we've seen. I think the first in succession has to be Sun's. She is in the last stages of her pregnancy and having her baby girl, Ji Yeon. Hurley comes to visit her and take her to Jin's grave. At this point I think everyone is doing OK, as in, not going crazy because they need to go back to the island. Hurley is fine and Sun is fine. Next would be Kate and Hurley's FF. From looking at Aaron in Kate's FF, he looks to be about 3 years old, so it's been about that long since they've gotten off the island. I think Hurley's FF is about the same time as Kate's. Jack appeared to be wearing the same dress suite and tie to Kate's trial as he did when he visited Hurley in the hospital, so I'm thinking that it is the same day. Jack also said "I need to get to the hospital," so he may have been talking about visiting Hurley. He also talked about growing a beard later and his drinking was just starting. I don't know, I might need a drink before I went to purger myself as well. This means Jack's FF is obviously later than Kate and Hurley's.

Sayid's FF is kind of a mystery to me. It doesn't really reference any of the other FFs, but I think it might be somewhere in the middle of the Kate/Hurley FF and the Jack FF, but this is just a hunch. This gives the FF order of Sun, Kate/Hurley, Sayid and then Jack. Going off of this, we know that Hurley is doing fine in Sun's FF, but he is not OK in his own. Jack is doing fine in both Kate and Hurley's FFs, but he is not OK in his own. Kate seems to be fine in all of the FFs, and Sun has not been seen in any other than her own. It seems that the urge to get back to the island is something that slowly eats at our Oceanic 6 because most of them seem OK at one point and not OK at a later time.

My tangent has gone too far off the subject to a point, but I don't think it is their CHOICE as to whether they feel this guilt or not. It's something that they can fight to a certain point, but eventually it gets to them. The fact that Micheal could not kill himself, because the Island won't let him, is a huge thing. The writers have now done a lot in personifying the powers of the Island. Oh sure, Locke said he talked to the Island in the past, and other characters have referred to the Island communicating with them, but this is a little different. This is an off-island intervention that causes real changes in Micheal's life. Tom asking if the bullet mis-fired or bounced off of Micheal's head...WTF. If he kept firing would one of the bullets bounced off of his head?! Crazy scenario if you think about it.

This really brings the idea that the Island is it's own entity to a whole new level. It's not at a level where, oh, say, Wes would be willing to comment on it with a definitive theory, but it is a little closer. I'll try to refrain from blasting too many crazy theories on this one as well, at least until we know more.

One last little thought, does it actually surprise any of you that Tom/Mr.Friendly/Zeek is gay? I think they threw out a good hint when he told Kate that she was not his type while she was showering in the beginning of season 3, but what is the point? Tom is dead now, so does anyone think his sexual preferences have anything to do with the plot?

Speaking of small things that may or may not mean anything, I was watching through TTLG the other day and noticed that when Sarah came to visit Jack at the hospital, that she was pregnant. Didn't see this the first few times I watched it. This may just be something to show that she has moved on with a happy life while Jack is still tormenting himself, but I also thought that it might mean something more.

This really brings the idea that the Island is it's own entity to a whole new level. It's not at a level where, oh, say, Wes would be willing to comment on it with a definitive theory, but it is a little closer. I'll try to refrain from blasting too many crazy theories on this one as well, at least until we know more.


Actually, if you take a peek at post #37 in this thread, you'll see that I've been saying that the island was alive and its own entity for quite some time. This posting is a basic summary of all the postings that I'd made up to that time, it gives 13 major plot points, and the Living Island is point #1.

One possibility in this idea has been that the living island is Jacob, suggested by the conversation between Ben and Mikhail in TTLG, where Mikhail asks incredulously whether the island told Ben to jam his own people, and Ben essentially says yes, that Jacob told him to do it. This might equate the island with Jacob.

The other main possibility I'd suggested was that the island was actually a group of intelligences, revealed by the whispers, with Jacob as perhaps the dominant intelligence. The idea that the voices are the intelligence in the island became more attractive since Miles was introduced, as his purpose on the island may be to find and counteract them. Since the whisper transcripts reveal some of the voices being frightened of revealing themselves, Miles' presence may have caused them to go into hiding, explaining why Jacob has apparently abandoned Locke since Miles arrived. (Just what Locke needs, right? More abandonment issues...)

-------------------------

As a completely separate note, I think the ending for meet Kevin Johnson might be a reasonable way to set up the story for what I think will be the eventual reveal that it's Paik, not Widmore, who's behind the freighter. No matter whether the mysterious shooter is an Other or a Freightie, I think we're being prepared for the idea that Alex will eventually be captured, with Ben being given the ultimatum to either surrender or see his daughter die. Then Ben will have had Sun abducted, and it will be revealed that Paik has Ben's daughter, and Ben has Paik's daughter, and it's a standoff.

It's possible that a small group of Losties will make a deal to assist in rescuing Sun, on the condition that they be brought back from the island and that the people on the island not be killed. This group of rescuers (and Paik's daughter, Sun) would become the Oceanic 6.

I think this would depend on a presumption that Ben's telling the truth for once would have no detrimental consequences to Ben's plans.

To me, the fact that Locke has completely swallowed Ben's story about Widmore after simply being shown a video with no visible connection to the freighter whatsoever suggests that he hasn't grown any brains yet. It's amusing because Locke first refused to take Ben at his word, then Ben shows him a video with no evidence that it's in any way relevant, and then suddenly Locke takes him at his word.

It's as though Locke is now finally aware that he's total putty in Ben's hands and he acknowledges this, and then totally forgets it and becomes putty anyway. It's classic Locke and classic Ben...

BTW, this would be true even if it turned out that Ben was telling the truth for once. Locke still was swayed with absolutely no evidence that what he was hearing was or was not truthful. And this from a man who shot him just a few days ago...

This is the only thing about LOST I'm having trouble with. Not sure Locke is being used. If he is playing a pansy it would be to get BEN to think he is in control until Locke can figure out what is really going on. So, Locke is either a Pansy (which I would so HATE) or Locke knows something more than Ben realizes.
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Actually, if you take a peek at post #37 in this thread, you'll see that I've been saying that the island was alive and its own entity for quite some time. This posting is a basic summary of all the postings that I'd made up to that time, it gives 13 major plot points, and the Living Island is point #1.

One possibility in this idea has been that the living island is Jacob, suggested by the conversation between Ben and Mikhail in TTLG, where Mikhail asks incredulously whether the island told Ben to jam his own people, and Ben essentially says yes, that Jacob told him to do it. This might equate the island with Jacob.

The other main possibility I'd suggested was that the island was actually a group of intelligences, revealed by the whispers, with Jacob as perhaps the dominant intelligence. The idea that the voices are the intelligence in the island became more attractive since Miles was introduced, as his purpose on the island may be to find and counteract them. Since the whisper transcripts reveal some of the voices being frightened of revealing themselves, Miles' presence may have caused them to go into hiding, explaining why Jacob has apparently abandoned Locke since Miles arrived. (Just what Locke needs, right? More abandonment issues...)

-------------------------

As a completely separate note, I think the ending for meet Kevin Johnson might be a reasonable way to set up the story for what I think will be the eventual reveal that it's Paik, not Widmore, who's behind the freighter. No matter whether the mysterious shooter is an Other or a Freightie, I think we're being prepared for the idea that Alex will eventually be captured, with Ben being given the ultimatum to either surrender or see his daughter die. Then Ben will have had Sun abducted, and it will be revealed that Paik has Ben's daughter, and Ben has Paik's daughter, and it's a standoff.

It's possible that a small group of Losties will make a deal to assist in rescuing Sun, on the condition that they be brought back from the island and that the people on the island not be killed. This group of rescuers (and Paik's daughter, Sun) would become the Oceanic 6.

I get the IMPRESSION by the whisper's words I read in the Whispers Thread, that they are a bunch of dead people trapped on the Island. Creepy!
I beleive BEN had Carl and Danielle shot and the possible kidnapping will turn out to be Ben's doing. I think Sun is capable of kicking but and will not get caught.
I do believe Widmore is the freighter, however, Paik can not be far behind since he had TWO watches on the Island at one point. I think we will see Michael and the Captain were just testing Sayid and Desmond. HOWEVER, it is so possible that Michael has been hired by PAIK, with the promise to rescue his son. Widmore only had Desmonds boat and PERHAPS Christian's coffin. Widmore did send Libby with Hurley on the plane, which could suggest he sent the plane off course. Gee, I hope Libby had a parachute! :biggrin:

Wesb wrote:

<I would claim that by showing Paik as wealthy, powerful, and ruthless, that the writers have played quite fairly with us. They can pull him out at any time as being a VIP, but if they're going to do that, the surprise works best if he's not too prominent nearer to the reveal. All they'd want to do is to lightly remind the more casual viewers that he does exist. (Like they did in the episode "Ji Yeon...")

We've been shown three wealthy industrialists (Hanso, Widmore, and Paik) which is extremely unusual, not to say redundant, in a story. Since everything we've seen so far could have been done by one industrialist without the redundancy, the others will almost certainly have their uses, and a good writer may well put in some misdirection before making an actual reveal.

I think we've been seeing just that.

The claims made for Widmore by people who've already been caught in lies are extremely easy to take back, and if they do so, people will certainly say they should have seen it coming. But all the claims made so far only show that these people know who Widmore is and that he's almost certainly a Big Player, which I've been saying all along. The fact that they've both hidden behind the same name of Widmore suggests that the choices for misdirection are limited. That's because the writers are playing fairly with us.

BTW... we've drifted more than a little from the thread topic. I'll be glad to continue this discussion, but we might want to find a more "relevant" thread. I'll take suggestions, or we could move to the link in my sig. Your choice...>

Wesb,
I read your theory earlier but have not reread all the responses before posting this continuation of our discussion from the spoiler board. God forbid I spill any spoiler beans here. I get nervous about that.

I think your theory is fascinating and I agree that there is no need for the redundancy of three industrialists, though Hanso seems a little different to me, since he seems mostly to be in the past. I guess he could have a presence in the here and now as well, in some continued incarnation of dharma or as himself, unseen so far. And there is the issue of whether Hanso was ever a hippie idealist or whether he had a more sinister hidden agenda for the island.

One thing about the watch issue: Are you saying that Paik intended the plane to crash or at least knew that it would, yet did not know that his daughter would be on it? What goon worthy of the name wouldn't report to his boss that his daughter had not left the airport but appeared to be planning to board the plane? Or perhaps Paik did not confide in the goon to that extent. Possible, I guess. He would also have to be confident that a transponder in a wristwatch could withstand a plane crash.

In addition, we saw Widmore get the Hanso ship log. So are we to think that he didn't do anything with that information, but somehow Paik did? Or is that more misdirection?

Wesb wrote:

One thing about the watch issue: Are you saying that Paik intended the plane to crash or at least knew that it would, yet did not know that his daughter would be on it? What goon worthy of the name wouldn't report to his boss that his daughter had not left the airport but appeared to be planning to board the plane? Or perhaps Paik did not confide in the goon to that extent. Possible, I guess. He would also have to be confident that a transponder in a wristwitch could withstand a plane crash.

In addition, we saw Widmore get the Hanso ship log. So are we to think that he didn't do anything with that information, but somehow Paik did? Or is that more misdirection?

I would not put it past PAIK to have set up the whole, "leaving her husband" thing, since Paik didn't like Jin anyway. Those watches are a clue, Michael got one from Jack, Jack got one from his father, which makes me suspect Christian is involved with one of the "Three Kings," but which one?
I don't see any misdirection going on, just leaving out important info so the audience could come to the wrong conclusion.
For example, Michael told Sayid and Desmond a story about how he got on the boat. I don't think it happened the way he said. Looking forward to the show tonight!

Think of three sets of three kings. The kings of the real world, Widmore/Paik/Hanso. The kings of the people on the island, Jack/Locke/Ben. And the kings of the islands protectors, Cerberus/Jacob/Abaddon. I don't know, just food for thought.

I think your theory is fascinating and I agree that there is no need for the redundancy of three industrialists, though Hanso seems a little different to me, since he seems mostly to be in the past. I guess he could have a presence in the here and now as well, in some continued incarnation of dharma or as himself, unseen so far. And there is the issue of whether Hanso was ever a hippie idealist or whether he had a more sinister hidden agenda for the island.


We have to remember that this is at least partially a mystery story and that if the writers have chosen to give us "fair clues" that could allow us to figure things out ahead of time that they also have to conceal them fairly well. This is especially true since we have literally years to mull over the possible clues, while in a mystery novel the typical reader has only hours or days before they reach the end. So they absolutely can't make their clues too easy to spot. By leaving the impression of a particular character "in the past" as you say, they leave them available to pop out of a hat at any moment, yet not expected to do so. Out of sight -- out of mind. The perfect recipe for surprise reveals.

But once a reveal is given, it has to be "obvious" in retrospect. At the very least it has to be plausible. And considering that Dharma/Hanso has put such a huge investment into the island, they must consider it extremely important. In that context, the bigger surprise would be if they just chose to roll over and play dead once they got thrown out in the purge. The bigger question then is "Where the #$%@ have they _been_ all these years?" One answer, and it's the answer that I've been proposing, is that they've been operating under our noses all along, and that the bringing of flight 815 to the island was part of their plan.


One thing about the watch issue: Are you saying that Paik intended the plane to crash or at least knew that it would, yet did not know that his daughter would be on it? What goon worthy of the name wouldn't report to his boss that his daughter had not left the airport but appeared to be planning to board the plane? Or perhaps Paik did not confide in the goon to that extent. Possible, I guess. He would also have to be confident that a transponder in a wristwitch could withstand a plane crash.


Well, TPTB have said that it was Desmond who caused the crash, so that was an accident. I think that Paik knew that the plane was headed to the island and wanted to get a transponder there to aid him in finding it. We don't know whether there's an airstrip there or if they'd planned to ditch the aircraft in shallow water offshore, or if there's yet a third island, or something we haven't even considered yet. But I do expect that the 815'ers arrival there was expected to only be _emotionally_ traumatic. The watch/transponder was expected to arrive all soft and cozy/comfy. That it survived in spite of it all is just part of the story.

It would appear that Paik was convinced that his daughter would _not_ be on the plane. Remember that her plan was to dessert Jin at the airport in Sydney and that at the very last minute she had a change of heart and stayed with him. The "restroom warning" that Jin got about delivering the watch never said that he couldn't run away; just that the stranger knew that that was his plan. He never said that Jin couldn't deliver the watch _AND_ run away. This made no sense at the time, but it makes perfect sense now if we expect that the goon had no expectation whatsoever that Sun would actually get on the plane. The intent of the warning was to ensure that Jin did get on the plane without Sun. And considering how bad their marriage had become, Sun's change of heart would have been very unexpected. Paik and the goon miscalculated severely.

Since Paik does not come across as a very forgiving man, I'd suspect that the goon't plans for the future suddenly became very limited...


In addition, we saw Widmore get the Hanso ship log. So are we to think that he didn't do anything with that information, but somehow Paik did? Or is that more misdirection?

The interesting thing there is that the writers have shown us extremely limited evidence, and have left us to draw our own conclusions as to what it means. This would be a very reasonable setup for a misdirection. Since we don't know what's in the journal, and supposedly Widmore didn't either, he may well have been making sure that no one else might obtain info on locating "his" island. In addition, he may have had a sincere collector's interest in artifacts relating to the island's history. We have seen two opposing camps make conflicting claims about Widmore, so we can be pretty sure he's a Big Player. But the conflicting claims about him tell us that at least one of the groups is lying. What's to prevent both of them from being liars?

This is particularly true since Naomi, as Gault's proxy initially lied about their boss. Should Gault suddenly decide that he wanted to become a paragon of honesty and tell all? This is admittedly a subjective view, but if he were ever to try to pass off someone _else_ as his boss after that, I'd be almost certain that that person was _not_ the one.

Ben's ability to lie and misdirect should need no explanation.

It's interesting that if I'm right about this, in the last three episodes the writers have tried exactly the same misdirection on us three times. It's followed these steps.

Take someone who from past experience, we have absolutely no reason to trust.
Have them suddenly "decide" that they want to come clean and tell all.
Have them show some artifact with no evidence whatsoever that it is authentic or has any connection to what they're talking about.
Ben shows a tape of Widmore that could mean anything.
Gault shows a flight recorder that may or may not be connected to anything
Tom shows some paperwork that could be easily faked by anyone sophisticated enough to get a fake "Kevin Johnson" passport.
Claim that Widmore is connected. (Though their claims are contradictory.)
Let people presume that because they've been _shown_ something for once, that the story must be true. (Though because the stories contradict, we know the ruse has been used to present a lie at least once...) The really fishy thing about the "Widmore reveal" is that we've not been shown a single scene of him that connects him in any way to the ship or the sunken "815" wreckage. The very first thing drummed into the minds of every beginning writer is, "Show, don't tell !!!" and it would have been simplicity itself for them to show us that connection. Instead, we've been given conflicting stories by known liars as to what he's up to.

Now, is it possible that I'm mistaken and that one of the liars is telling the truth for once? Absolutely. Is it also possible that the writers are handing us a False Dichotomy and that neither of the possibilities we've been given is the correct one? Also absolutely. In addition, it would be far more interesting and make for a neat surprise reveal. The potential for the surprise was just cranked up a notch since the writers have prepared us for the consequences of the eventual capture of Alex. The surprise suddenly amplifies when we see that Ben's ace in the hole is to capture Paik's daughter, Sun, and that both sides are in a standoff in having captured the daughter of their opponent's leader. (I would claim that Ben already tried this once, with the attempted abduction of the pregnant women.)

Now, in a story as cast-heavy as this one, I'm suspecting that every character is included to have an eventual purpose in the story, and Sun and Jin's part so far has been only to play a minor-and-disconnected soap opera role that doesn't really fit in. I think that The Rich Industrialist's Daughter, stranded on the island, was placed there for a specific purpose, and they'd seem to have only 5 episodes left to use that situation before she leaves that island.

I'm guessing that they're gonna do something with that. We'll see...

A negotiation for help in a rescue of Sun might neatly tie together how the freighties might agree to take a few people off the island. (If Sun's gonna be brought back, Paik would need some sort of cover story. A few others might be able to tag along, but probably only a few. The rescuers, perhaps?) It might also explain how those left behind are allowed to live -- further conditions of the negotiation. Since Jin would certainly be involved in Sun's rescue, it would show how he died valliantly defending the woman he loved and the daughter he will never see. And as much as Paik expected that he "owned" Jin, he'd expect that he "owned" the O6 in return for their rescue. There may even be severe consequences for all 6 if any were to reveal the truth. This would explain their insistence on their surprising cover story.

This last part is all wild speculation, of course...

killer work wes, and I truly hope they're going to take it in a direction similar to how you see things, as opposed to just having introduced hanso and paik 'in case', only to later decide they're unneeded (just like *may* be happening with danielle now..).

Anyways killer work as always, this thread is the only thing that tops darkufo spoilers for me ;)

We have to remember that this is at least partially a mystery story and that if the writers have chosen to give us "fair clues" that could allow us to figure things out ahead of time that they also have to conceal them fairly well. This is especially true since we have literally years to mull over the possible clues, while in a mystery novel the typical reader has only hours or days before they reach the end. So they absolutely can't make their clues too easy to spot.

The bigger question then is "Where the #$%@ have they _been_ all these years?" One answer, and it's the answer that I've been proposing, is that they've been operating under our noses all along, and that the bringing of flight 815 to the island was part of their plan.

Well, TPTB have said that it was Desmond who caused the crash, so that was an accident. I think that Paik knew that the plane was headed to the island and wanted to get a transponder there to aid him in finding it.

It would appear that Paik was convinced that his daughter would _not_ be on the plane.

This is particularly true since Naomi, as Gault's proxy initially lied about their boss.

Ben's ability to lie and misdirect should need no explanation.

Now, is it possible that I'm mistaken and that one of the liars is telling the truth for once? Absolutely. Is it also possible that the writers are handing us a False Dichotomy and that neither of the possibilities we've been given is the correct one? Also absolutely. In addition, it would be far more interesting and make for a neat surprise reveal. The potential for the surprise was just cranked up a notch since the writers have prepared us for the consequences of the eventual capture of Alex. The surprise suddenly amplifies when we see that Ben's ace in the hole is to capture Paik's daughter, Sun, and that both sides are in a standoff in having captured the daughter of their opponent's leader. (I would claim that Ben already tried this once, with the attempted abduction of the pregnant women.)

1) Mystery novel, lol. I'm so impatient, if I get a good book I can't put it down until I'm finished. Imagine the frustration when someone gives you a great book and only allows you to read one hour a week! If I didn't have the fuselage to help ease my frustration I think I'd go crazy! Anyone else relate?

2) When you mean "where have they been all these years" do you mean since the purge by Ben? The bigger question I have is how the &%#@ does someone lose an Island?

3) Desmond may have caused the crash.. how did the plane get near the Island in the first place? I think SOMEONE had to sabatoge the plane's direction in order to get it even close to the Island before Desmond could have "caused the crash" BY THE WAY I don't think he "caused a crash" but by NOT pushing the button he caused something else to happen, which in turn caused the plane to break apart. REMEMBER, the plane BROKE apart in mid-air...it DIDN"T CRASH IT FELL APART! WHY?????? I have a theory I don't think I can post without being a spoiler. (?)

4) I agree with you here... Paik didn't think his daughter would stay with a fisherman's son! If Paik has GPS on those watches, he is on his way to the Island as well.

5) Naomi was hired by Abaddon... are we sure Abaddon works for Widmore????

6) Ben is soooo evil it only makes the actor THAT GOOD!

7) I don't think any of the Three Kings, on Island Kings or off Island Kings, would ever tell ANYONE else the truth about the Island. "Yeah, Locke. The real reason Widmore and others want to come to this Island is..." NO WAY! Frank is the only one who is even considering a conspiracy, so far. Dan and Char have ideas, but I think they too are being used and lied to about the Islands full potential.

Don't you think Locke would help protect Sun? Do you think he will believe Ben enough to allow her to be kidnapped, knowing keeping her on the Island means her death?

Do you think keeping the Island hidden has actually SAVED the world, since the powers of the Island might be released and than woman throughout the world who became pregnant would be dieing? Maybe Ben is trying to CONTROL the Island (Jacob) to keep the world safe? (I still think Ben is so totally evil)

killer work wes, and I truly hope they're going to take it in a direction similar to how you see things, as opposed to just having introduced hanso and paik 'in case', only to later decide they're unneeded (just like *may* be happening with danielle now..).

Anyways killer work as always, this thread is the only thing that tops darkufo spoilers for me ;)

You are remarkably kind. A comment like that is both flattering and humbling...

Interestingly, I don't expect that my theory will have a chance to do more than catch a few minor clues... There's too much yet to be revealed and I think that the writers will do far better at plotting a story than I can...
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3) Desmond may have caused the crash.. how did the plane get near the Island in the first place? I think SOMEONE had to sabatoge the plane's direction in order to get it even close to the Island before Desmond could have "caused the crash" BY THE WAY I don't think he "caused a crash" but by NOT pushing the button he caused something else to happen, which in turn caused the plane to break apart. REMEMBER, the plane BROKE apart in mid-air...it DIDN"T CRASH IT FELL APART! WHY?????? I have a theory I don't think I can post without being a spoiler. (?)


Well, I certainly don't expect people to sift through this entire thread, but if you ever have lots & lots of spare time and give it a try, you'll find a unified theory of Lost that covers almost all of the mysteries we've seen. This includes the reason the plane was brought to the island. In summary...

Remember how amazed Alpert was that Young Ben saw the apparition of his mother? This is apparently so rare and unusual that an outsider with that talent was made their leader. We should be surprised then that flight 815 seems to have been packed with people with this "talent."

Now, if someone..
wanted to undermine Ben
knew how to find the island
knew enough about the island to find people in the outside world with Ben's talent
had the resources to get a lot of them onto the same plane
had the resources to kidnap that plane
had the resources to plant a fake wreck to cover their tracks...they just might bring the plane to the island. They'd probably have made arrangements for it to land safely, provided there were no unstable Scotsmen around to gum things up... There's one group that fits all of these requirements; Hanso/Dharma. I think that they've been working to get the island back since Ben and company threw them off the island. I think that flight 815 was part of an effort to totally destabilize Ben's people by bringing people who had better rapport with the island than Ben does. A huge number of Losties were _given_ tickets on that specific flight. (Claire was even told she couldn't take any other flight...)



4) I agree with you here... Paik didn't think his daughter would stay with a fisherman's son! If Paik has GPS on those watches, he is on his way to the Island as well.

5) Naomi was hired by Abaddon... are we sure Abaddon works for Widmore????


By my predictions, Paik isn't merely on the way; he's already there. That is, he's the one who's really behind the freighter. And I do suspect that Abbadon works for Paik. Interestingly, of all the characters we've seen on the show, only Paik and Abbadon are people I'd go out of my way to avoid... they have the same ominous creepiness. Most every other character, I wouldn't even mind having lunch with... okay... maybe not Jack either... I could handle Widmore's condescension and Ben's scariness, (for either, the conversation would still be fascinating...) but a whole meal's worth of Jack's whining would have me wrapping myself in chains and jumping overboard...;)


Don't you think Locke would help protect Sun? Do you think he will believe Ben enough to allow her to be kidnapped, knowing keeping her on the Island means her death?


Absolutely not. that's why he said that Widmore, not Paik, is behind the boat. If he told the truth then even Locke would have figured out that Sun would be in danger if Ben were set free, and so Ben would still be locked up. I think Ben told a little lie exactly so that he'd have the freedom to try again to abduct Sun. As things are right now, Ben is the only one on the island who knows that Sun is in danger...

Interestingly, I don't expect that my theory will have a chance to do more than catch a few minor clues... There's too much yet to be revealed and I think that the writers will do far better at plotting a story than I can...

I too think you are on track with many points.

WHAT IF Sayid's FF was actually showing us that Sayid is using Ben's double, IF Ben has a double?

Do you think there are TWO Bens? With Ben's ego, I don't think Ben would allow two of himself. Is Sayid using one of the two Ben's to save his friends? So, one Ben on the Island and another one off? Or is the Ben off Island just a manifistation, like the Black Horse to Kate and Charlie to Hurley? I'm so confused.:confused:
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Well, I certainly don't expect people to sift through this entire thread, but if you ever have lots & lots of spare time and give it a try, you'll find a unified theory of Lost that covers almost all of the mysteries we've seen. This includes the reason the plane was brought to the island. In summary...

By my predictions, Paik isn't merely on the way; he's already there. That is, he's the one who's really behind the freighter. And I do suspect that Abbadon works for Paik. Interestingly, of all the characters we've seen on the show, only Paik and Abbadon are people I'd go out of my way to avoid... they have the same ominous creepiness. Most every other character, I wouldn't even mind having lunch with... okay... maybe not Jack either... I could handle Widmore's condescension and Ben's scariness, (for either, the conversation would still be fascinating...) but a whole meal's worth of Jack's whining would have me wrapping myself in chains and jumping overboard...;)


Absolutely not. that's why he said that Widmore, not Paik, is behind the boat. If he told the truth then even Locke would have figured out that Sun would be in danger if Ben were set free, and so Ben would still be locked up. I think Ben told a little lie exactly so that he'd have the freedom to try again to abduct Sun. As things are right now, Ben is the only one on the island who knows that Sun is in danger...

Actually, I have read most, not sure I remember what I read... lol. I do believe the plane was used, not sure how many people were manipulated ONTO flight 815, yet. Perhaps at least six people sitting in seats 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42? Sun got onto the plane, the Three Kings can not plan perfectly, which I'm sure is obvious. :)

Richard handed Locke the file on Sawyer. I'm sure at least Richard knows as well. Mr. Friendly/Friendly's double seems to be willing to help with the deceptions.

So, if the freighter is Paik, than the Captian is in league with Ben since he is telling everyone it is Widmore's boat? :confused:

To all the theorists on this thread, amazing work. Reading your speculations have been the most fun and interesting thing i've done all week- please, keep 'em coming.

wesb,

You are absolutely amazing. You did indeed answer my points in a way that makes total sense. Now I just hope the Lost writers are as good as you are!

It would indeed be good to have Sun/Jin tie into the story in a more integral way. And Paik has got to enter the action at some point, so why not now?

Also, ITA that it is fishy that both Ben and Gault seem to be so straightforwardly naming Widmore. Of course, Ben does tend at times to mix some truths with his lies, or tell truths while withholding other info needed for the complete picture. And I had figured that Gault was willing to tell Sayid and Des stuff because he planned to kill them, so it wouldn't matter what they knew. You are right that Gault and Ben contradict each other so that at least one of them is lying, and maybe both are.

Not sure why Ben would kidnap all the pregnant women if he just wanted Sun. You are right that he had bigger problems to deal with at that point than the pregnancy issue, and he wasted several people on that mission. Of course, Richard did act like Ben was somewhat irrational and obsessive about the issue.

I also agree that it is quite a coincidence that so many of the 815ers seem to be gifted at seeing things on the island, and it was also very much stressed at the beginning of the show how several of those 815ers seemed to have been guided to be on that particular flight. I don't find it out of the question that there could be a landing strip on this island or one of the nearby smaller islands, and the fact that there was a last-minute pilot change may argue for the flight being diverted to the island. What do you think Hanso/dharma intended to do with the regular schmucks who were stuck on the flight as well? A lot of them obviously died in the crash, but they are still there among the surviving redshirts and even the featured players among the losties, like Rose and Bernard, or Arnzt. Were they just going to live on the island forever after the talented 815ers displaced Ben as the island's favored ones? Would the great unwashed from the plane become the new dharma Workmen?

Also, at some point didn't Darlton say that it's fate or whatever that put these particular people on this flight? (Or did they say that the interconnectedness among the backstories was fate? Can't keep my disclaimers straight...)

Anyway, thanks for all the delicious food for thought.

To all the theorists on this thread, amazing work. Reading your speculations have been the most fun and interesting thing i've done all week- please, keep 'em coming.

Be careful, I started just as an observer and now I'm hooked! Please, join in the fun! And welcome aboard.:)

You are absolutely amazing. You did indeed answer my points in a way that makes total sense. Now I just hope the Lost writers are as good as you are!


You are far too kind, but thank you. As I've said in the past, I've every confidence that the writers are far, far better at this than I am. If I can pull a few neat twists out of the clues of theirs that I think I've managed to spot, I'm expecting them to pull this story together into one FAN-$%^#'in-TASTIC resolution.


It would indeed be good to have Sun/Jin tie into the story in a more integral way. And Paik has got to enter the action at some point, so why not now?


Paik is far too interesting a character to leave on the sidelines. Yet if you're going to introduce a surprise-villain, the surprise is far more satisfying if it's someone you already recognize, like they did with Widmore. It's interesting that they didn't really need to put three wealthy industrialists into the story, if this is as far as it goes. Hanso was needed, to justify the Dharma infrastructure on the island, but the story could have stayed the same if Paik was instead a big-time gangster, and if they'd made Widmore an elitist politician, they could have had Ben and Gault claiming it was Hanso that was the mysterious bad-guy, and everything would have stayed the same. Why the redundancy of three wealthy industrialists? It's likely because they're eventually needed for the story to play out.

And I do really believe that every character is in the story for a specific purpose. Even Rose and Bernard, as much as people gripe about them, are there for the character-story, when they need to bring in a voice of conscience, advice, and understanding. (And with this messed-up group of people, that occasionally has a great value.) Walt Disney used Jiminy Cricket for the same purpose. In this story, that role is a little more complex...

Yet Sun and Jin have been dropped in for what appears to be no good purpose to the Big Story. I've enjoyed their stories more than many did, though their stories were almost completely self-contained; more suited for a short story in a magazine, rather than a segment of Lost. It was more like the writers were trying to give them an excuse for being there, and deliberately looking for excuses for writing them into the story complications.

Yet the story so far could be exactly the same without them. Every important task they've done could have been assigned to a different character, and the main story would have been exactly the same without the added complexity of two extra characters.

But good writers plan ahead, and drop in people and plot devices way ahead of time, to be unveiled at the right moment. And right now, I think that Sun and Jin's crucial moment is about to be unveiled. The writers have been keeping them in the background and occasionally reminding us that they were there, so that they can play a crucial role in an exploding story conflict.

At least that's my guess...


Also, ITA that it is fishy that both Ben and Gault seem to be so straightforwardly naming Widmore. Of course, Ben does tend at times to mix some truths with his lies, or tell truths while withholding other info needed for the complete picture. And I had figured that Gault was willing to tell Sayid and Des stuff because he planned to kill them, so it wouldn't matter what they knew. You are right that Gault and Ben contradict each other so that at least one of them is lying, and maybe both are.


This is just my impression of Gault, but if he were planning on killing them, I dont think he'd care enough about them to tell them anything. If they're still alive, it's because they're still useful to him alive. People like Gault likely have a history of running guns, drugs, and human traffic, His peple either do as they're told and ask no questions or they have an "accident" at sea and their bodies are lost. He'll be tough enough to inspire fear and respect, reasonable enough to get cooperation when he needs it and ruthless enough to eliminate anyone who's a problem.


Not sure why Ben would kidnap all the pregnant women if he just wanted Sun. You are right that he had bigger problems to deal with at that point than the pregnancy issue, and he wasted several people on that mission. Of course, Richard did act like Ben was somewhat irrational and obsessive about the issue.


My impression of Ben is that he plays his cards close and thinks several moves ahead (to mix a metaphor...) When Naomi's arrival showed that Paik could put people on the island, he knew he was in enormous trouble, but he wasn't going to display that to his own people. He portrayed it all as a minor problem; so minor that they could deal with a side-issue and grab the pregnant women. By the time his people knew just how great a threat they faced, Ben planned to already have Sun as his hostage, and so he'd be seen once again as The Man With The Plan, who had it all under control.

Things didn't quite work out for him this time...


I also agree that it is quite a coincidence that so many of the 815ers seem to be gifted at seeing things on the island, and it was also very much stressed at the beginning of the show how several of those 815ers seemed to have been guided to be on that particular flight. I don't find it out of the question that there could be a landing strip on this island or one of the nearby smaller islands, and the fact that there was a last-minute pilot change may argue for the flight being diverted to the island. What do you think Hanso/dharma intended to do with the regular schmucks who were stuck on the flight as well?


I think that TLE is still canon, and if not, it's still an example of the kind not-to-be-elaborated-on backstory that TPTB had set up. If so, it's likely that flight 815 happened while Mittelwerk had taken the reigns of The Hanso Foundation. If this guy was willing to kill huge numbers of people to verify an experimental virus, he'd likely not worry too much about the stranded 815'ers who just happened to book themselves onto The Wrong Flight. Interestingly, between flight 815 and the later flashforwards, Hanso took back control of his organization. So it's possible that Hanso was a "bad guy" as the story opened, but becomes a "good guy" before the story closes. It would make an interesting scene in Season 5, if Bushy Jack is visited by a stranger who says, "First, let me deeply apologise. My people were the ones who brought you to the island. My name is Hanso and we have work to do..."


A lot of them obviously died in the crash, but they are still there among the surviving redshirts and even the featured players among the losties, like Rose and Bernard, or Arnzt. Were they just going to live on the island forever after the talented 815ers displaced Ben as the island's favored ones? Would the great unwashed from the plane become the new dharma Workmen?


I'm guessing that since the writers turned the story in a completely different direction, that that was to be left unanswered. But as ruthless as Mittelwerk was, your suggestion would probably be one of the more "humane" possibilities...


Also, at some point didn't Darlton say that it's fate or whatever that put these particular people on this flight? (Or did they say that the interconnectedness among the backstories was fate? Can't keep my disclaimers straight...)


I think that they make suggestions about fate and show us lots of coincidences, and that they need these as part of the story. The reason they need them is that they also are showing us some things that we would immediately recognize as evidence of a conspiracy if we werent lulled into thinking of them as "just another coincidence." For example, Libby giving a total stranger a fabulously expensive boat that just happened to bring him to the island. There's a reason she gave him that boat. We're not supposed to think too much about it...


Anyway, thanks for all the delicious food for thought.


You're quite welcome. And thank you for the kind words.
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To all the theorists on this thread, amazing work. Reading your speculations have been the most fun and interesting thing i've done all week- please, keep 'em coming.

Thank you also for the kind words, and welcome to The Fuselage. We're a pretty civil group in this thread, (at least, so long as we're in this thread...:rolleyes:) so don't be afraid to join in with ideas or questions...

Paik is far too interesting a character to leave on the sidelines. Yet if you're going to introduce a surprise-villain, the surprise is far more satisfying if it's someone you already recognize, like they did with Widmore.

And I do really believe that every character is in the story for a specific purpose. Even Rose and Bernard, as much as people gripe about them, are there for the character-story, when they need to bring in a voice of conscience, advice, and understanding. (And with this messed-up group of people, that occasionally has a great value.) Walt Disney used Jiminy Cricket for the same purpose. In this story, that role is a little more complex...

But good writers plan ahead, and drop in people and plot devices way ahead of time, to be unveiled at the right moment. And right now, I think that Sun and Jin's crucial moment is about to be unveiled. The writers have been keeping them in the background and occasionally reminding us that they were there, so that they can play a crucial role in an exploding story conflict.

At least that's my guess...
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1) Oh, my gosh, are you suggesting a new villian? I hope you don't mean Sun!
2) I enjoy Rose and Bernard and am glad they are on the show.
3) Good guessing! Keep up the good work!

1) Oh, my gosh, are you suggesting a new villian? I hope you don't mean Sun!


The "Three Kings" in the thread title refer to Paik, Widmore, and Hanso. The basic premise is that all three have been jockeying for control of the island, and the posings in the thread detail how actions by each of the three explain a huge number of the mysteries we've seen.

I've predicted that Paik, not Widmore is behind the freighter, and shown how and why the contradictory Widmore stories we've been given are both probably false. Because Paik's daughter is on the island, and it's posited that Paik is behind the freighter, we would see that Ben's people have as much to gain by capturing Sun as the freighties have in capturing Alex.

I've also pointed out how Ben has already tried to get Sun as a hostage under the ruse of abducting the pregnant women. Sun is not a villain, but her father most likely is...

The "Three Kings" in the thread title refer to Paik, Widmore, and Hanso. The basic premise is that all three have been jockeying for control of the island, and the posings in the thread detail how actions by each of the three explain a huge number of the mysteries we've seen.

I've predicted that Paik, not Widmore is behind the freighter, and shown how and why the contradictory Widmore stories we've been given are both probably false. Because Paik's daughter is on the island, and it's posited that Paik is behind the freighter, we would see that Ben's people have as much to gain by capturing Sun as the freighties have in capturing Alex.

I've also pointed out how Ben has already tried to get Sun as a hostage under the ruse of abducting the pregnant women. Sun is not a villain, but her father most likely is...

Along with your theory that someone planned to have the plane brought to the Island.. do you have any idea who opened the hatch door on the plane before it crashed? Who was the person on the plane who jumped?

Along with your theory that someone planned to have the plane brought to the Island.. do you have any idea who opened the hatch door on the plane before it crashed? Who was the person on the plane who jumped?

Wait, where did this come from? Did this happen?

What?! Someone jumped from the plane?! That CAN'T be true!!!!!!!!!

Someone jumped off the plane? Where did you here that T2S? I don't remember that ever happening. Besides, jumping out of a plane as it is being ripped apart doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Wesb, the thread is still sounding good man, I wrote my own theory, which has been influenced by your theory to some extent. The one big difference is that I still believe it is Widmore behind the freighter. I do agree that Mr.Paik is going to come into the picture in a big way, but not as the guy who owns the freighter (or at least not the freighter that we have seen).

Did you read...


03/17 - Cuse and Lindelof reveal: Ben was telling a truth and a lie [about Widmore]. He is behind the freighter, but he is not there for the reason that Ben says he is. We'll know by the end of season four. Source: DocArzt's Lost Blog (http://www.docarzt.com/)


There's also a lot of stuff in TLE that confuses me. I think that stuff was supposed to occur in 2005 right? Didn't Middlewerk have plans for a freighter, but it was like some quarantined hospital boat? What do you think is up with that? I mean we all know that "quarantine is a hoax."

I'm not sure about the points of Sun and Jin being almost obsolete in their storylines, especially lately. I admit that the first two seasons didn't even need them, other than showing how people of different cultures were brought together. Since Sun has been pregnant, her role in the overall lost story has become more important. I do think that her dad is looking for the island, but I don't think the watch was helpful for him. I'm guessing that Danielle's transmission and the signal blocker from the looking glass kept it from being functional. Plus, I'm guessing you need a special frequency to communicate to the island in real time. Now the watch is in a pawn shop in New York, so I doubt it will help Mr.Paik find the island; unless Micheal helped him find one of the posible entry points when he left the island with the watch. Paik probably had people listening for the signal just like Penny had people waiting to hear it. I just don't think that Paik has all the information he needs to get on the island, but that doesn't mean that he's not hot on the trail of Widmore's freighter.

Just a slight difference in opinion of this little detail, but we all know that nothing is canon until we see it on the show. How bout just a friendly wager for bragging rights Wesb, I say it's Widmore's freighter and you say it's Mr.Paik's. :rolleyes:

So you would like to have dinner with Widmore and Ben huh? Well it wouldn't be bad if Widmore felt I was among his company, but if he's being a jerk I'm going to steal his whiskey and run. As for Ben...nooooo way! Even if he turns out to be a good guy, he's way too creepy for me. Haven't you guys seen Saw? Of course, it would be fun to have a battle of head games with Ben. I probably wouldn't want to have dinner with Jack either, but he'd be fun to go out and have a few drinks with, the guy can pound em.

Wait, where did this come from? Did this happen?

In the pilot episode one of the hatch doors from the plane flies off before the airplane comes apart. I didn't know if this is from a bomb, if someone jumped or just opened the door so they could jump out.
I have posted a thread about the Black Box. I'm thinking the Black Box, if the writers allow us to hear the recording, will reveil more about what caused the crash. I know people are saying Desmond did...by not pushing the button. But could this cause the plane to fall apart in the sky? I think Desmond caused another phenomenon (can't mention, possible spoiler?) and the integrity of the plane couldn't hold together when it was submited to a sudden drop in air pressure as the hatch door blew open.

So, I still love this theory despite all that was revealed in the past weeks. I agree Wes, there is something not right about the straightforwardness and anticlimax of all the Widmore reveals- we are being set up.

But what about Lipidus's reference to "the guy who owns this freighter agrees with me." He named Widmore- the implication was that he had spoken with him. Of course, he never SAID he had spoken with him, and it could be another misdirection.

Yet, it seems common knowledge on the freighter that the ship is owned by Widmore. Why would Paik trick, at least Lipidus, possibly the whole freighter, that they were actually working for Widmore? While I suspect that both sides are lying about the freighter, it seems unlikely that they would tell the same lie, in terms of the man behind the freighter.

Any thoughts?

There's also a lot of stuff in TLE that confuses me. I think that stuff was supposed to occur in 2005 right? Didn't Middlewerk have plans for a freighter, but it was like some quarantined hospital boat? What do you think is up with that? I mean we all know that "quarantine is a hoax."


The ship in TLE, the Helgus Antonius, wold have been outfittted in the time between the current on-island story and the Bushy Jack FFs. It might play a part in the off-island FFs.


I'm not sure about the points of Sun and Jin being almost obsolete in their storylines, especially lately. I admit that the first two seasons didn't even need them, other than showing how people of different cultures were brought together. Since Sun has been pregnant, her role in the overall lost story has become more important.


I didn't say "obsolete" so much as I said they weren't necessary in the story as we've seen it so far. They do occasionally get parts to play, but what have they done that was needed in the main story that couldn't have been written so as to be played by some other character? In a cast as huge as this one, I can't imagine the writers adding in characters they don't absolutely need. Consider that while they're not playing any crucial roles, Sun has the remarkable position of being the stranded-on-an-island-daughter-of-an-evil-and-wealthy-industrial-giant, yet the writers have done absolutely nothing with this set-up that's absolutely brimming with possibilities. In fact, they've done nothing with the evil-and-wealthy-industrial-giant that is Paik either (yet...) So Sun's character has huge possibilities, but the writers have used absolutely none of them (yet...) I think that Sun and Jin's story is part of a 3 1/2 year story set up that's just about to pay off before Sun leaves the island. We won't have long to wait to see if this is right.


I do think that her dad is looking for the island, but I don't think the watch was helpful for him. I'm guessing that Danielle's transmission and the signal blocker from the looking glass kept it from being functional. Plus, I'm guessing you need a special frequency to communicate to the island in real time. Now the watch is in a pawn shop in New York, so I doubt it will help Mr.Paik find the island; unless Micheal helped him find one of the posible entry points when he left the island with the watch.


I agree that the watch didn't accomplish what Paik intended for it, but that's part of what makes a story interesting. It's possible that the watch did bring Paik's people close enough to the island (when they found Michael) to get a rough idea of where the island must be. The current freighter was then outfitted to continue the search in the absenceof radio signals from the watch, which is no longer there.


Paik probably had people listening for the signal just like Penny had people waiting to hear it. I just don't think that Paik has all the information he needs to get on the island, but that doesn't mean that he's not hot on the trail of Widmore's freighter.


Penny was not listening for a signal from the island. She is the one who was calling in to it when the jamming went down. In TTLG, Charlie received an incoming transmission from Penny, and Penny asked him how he got that frequency, which tells us that she knew the frequency was special and that Charlie wasn't who was supposed to be there. But she had no way to know that without lots of inside info on the island and Ben's people. I claim in The Three Kings theory that Widmore is or at least was Ben's boss and that Penny got the info from people in her daddy's organization.


So you would like to have dinner with Widmore and Ben huh? Well it wouldn't be bad if Widmore felt I was among his company, but if he's being a jerk I'm going to steal his whiskey and run. As for Ben...nooooo way! Even if he turns out to be a good guy, he's way too creepy for me. Haven't you guys seen Saw? Of course, it would be fun to have a battle of head games with Ben. I probably wouldn't want to have dinner with Jack either, but he'd be fun to go out and have a few drinks with, the guy can pound em.

I would gladly have dinner with either Widmore or Ben. We don't "improve our game" by playing people we can beat but by playing people who are better at it than we are. I would go to the dinner expecting to be verbally trounced by Widmore and to have my head screwed with in ways unimaginable by Ben. Yet the conversation would likely be fascinating and I'd likely spend weeks dissecting exactly what happened and learning from it. Such conversations would not be light entertainment but heavy-duty instruction into how a "master" does his work...

The dinner would not be an easy one, but I'd go away from it a different person than I was when I arrived, and what I'd leave with would be valuable.
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But what about Lipidus's reference to "the guy who owns this freighter agrees with me." He named Widmore- the implication was that he had spoken with him. Of course, he never SAID he had spoken with him, and it could be another misdirection.


For each of the "freighter four," some motivation had to be given to get them to come along on this mission. Charlotte and Faraday have academic interest. Miles sees the chance of getting a nice wad of cash, but how would they manipulate Lapidus? If they know he's obsessed with Flight 815 and a conspiracy involved, what better way than to say that there are people who agree with him and that they need him to help get at the truth? That's irresistable bait for any conspiracy theorist. They'd need a cover story, and the name Widmore just happened to be partof it, see my answer below...


Yet, it seems common knowledge on the freighter that the ship is owned by Widmore. Why would Paik trick, at least Lipidus, possibly the whole freighter, that they were actually working for Widmore? While I suspect that both sides are lying about the freighter, it seems unlikely that they would tell the same lie, in terms of the man behind the freighter.


Don't forget that these people were already caught in one lie about their backer... Naomi said that they were working for Penny Widmore and that they were searching for Desmond. Well, those pesky island-folk managed to actually talk to Penny and found out that she's not involved, and then they put the very Desmond they were supposedly looking for onto the freighter and they don't particularly seem to care. So all points of their story have been revealed as the lies they are. Given this, I can't imagine that the story they tell their hired people is going to be accurate either. They apparently have something to hide. In fact, I'd be 99% sure that whoever it is they tell their hired people they're working for can be counted on to not be their actual boss.

As far as the likeliness of different people picking the sme name in a cover story, I agree that it would be unlikely if they were just picking random names. This just tells me that Widmore isn't just a random name but is a Major Player known to both sides but whose purpose han't yet been disclosed. As I suspect that Widmore was Ben's boss until just recently, I see no surprise that Ben had a file of info on him. As Penny's search for Desmond likely had her speaking to many people and distributing copies of the photo of her and Des, knowledge of her search would have been available to someone doing the right investigation, and the name of either Widmore might be part of a perfect cover story. That way, if anyone were trying to check out the supposed mission of this freighter, they'd find out that, yes, there are Widmore people involved in just this kind of search....

In the pilot episode one of the hatch doors from the plane flies off before the airplane comes apart. I didn't know if this is from a bomb, if someone jumped or just opened the door so they could jump out.
I have posted a thread about the Black Box. I'm thinking the Black Box, if the writers allow us to hear the recording, will reveil more about what caused the crash. I know people are saying Desmond did...by not pushing the button. But could this cause the plane to fall apart in the sky? I think Desmond caused another phenomenon (can't mention, possible spoiler?) and the integrity of the plane couldn't hold together when it was submited to a sudden drop in air pressure as the hatch door blew open.
Darlton said that the definitive answer as to why the plane crashed was the incident with the swan, a strong enough magnetic force if it was far enough away, could cause one section of the plane to "go" one way while the tail section went the other. The incident in the swan was what caused the plane to crash, it's just another instance of being lied to so much that you question actual answers, don't worry we all have it damn writers.

Despite my sig saying down wit 'em, where did you read the other phenomenon spoiler, and how big of a spoiler is it?

The way Ben talks about Widmore, you'd think that Widmore wants Ben out of the way so that Widmore can take over the island, but if that were true, I think Widmore would have made the trip himself to see the island, or at least have joined the freighter as soon as it made contact with the island. In any case, Widmore's people aren't there to kill Ben, but to snatch and grab Ben. Miles says as much when he says that he'll tell his people that Ben is dead for 3.2 million dollars. Obviously, Ben's death is not their goal.

Whatever their goal is, Ben doesn't want to participate. Is he reneging on a deal they made? Why do they want Ben?

That Desmond was on the island was known to Widmore perhaps because of the signal the outpost found from the Elizabeth when the EM discharge occurred. I think Naomi was given the photo by someone on the boat that does know Penny. If it's not Naomi herself that Penny knows.

Penny knows about the freighter before it finds the island. We learn this from Minkowski. Penny also knows about the island by the time she speaks to Desmond, but I think she knew about the island before she spoke to Charlie. I don't think she was being truthful to Charlie because she didn't expect him to answer her call, and she didn't know who he was. "How did you get this frequency," she asks, so she didn't trust him. When Penny says, "What boat?" we know that she knows about the freighter because she has called it on more than one occassion.

The fact that Penny was making a call to that frequency, either means she was trying to contact the freighter, and Bonnie and Greta were listening in, or she had a way to call The Looking Glass and was doing so when Charlie answered. If the latter, she expected Greta or Bonnie to answer her call, hence her questions to Charlie... what island, what boat, who's Naomi?

I think she already knew the answers.

I think Naomi was going to use the Desmond/Penny story to ingratiate herself with the Others should she be caught by them...and maybe do the favor for Penny her friend of looking for Desmond. She doesn't know there are any survivors of Flight 815 before she lands. But the story works on them too until they receive Charlie's "Not Penny's Boat" message which turns everything upside down again.

Penny was not listening for a signal from the island. She is the one who was calling in to it when the jamming went down. In TTLG, Charlie received an incoming transmission from Penny, and Penny asked him how he got that frequency, which tells us that she knew the frequency was special and that Charlie wasn't who was supposed to be there. But she had no way to know that without lots of inside info on the island and Ben's people. I claim in The Three Kings theory that Widmore is or at least was Ben's boss and that Penny got the info from people in her daddy's organization.

I would gladly have dinner with either Widmore or Ben. We don't "improve our game" by playing people we can beat but by playing people who are better at it than we are. I would go to the dinner expecting to be verbally trounced by Widmore and to have my head screwed with in ways unimaginable by Ben. Yet the conversation would likely be fascinating and I'd likely spend weeks dissecting exactly what happened and learning from it. Such conversations would not be light entertainment but heavy-duty instruction into how a "master" does his work...

The dinner would not be an easy one, but I'd go away from it a different person than I was when I arrived, and what I'd leave with would be valuable.
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1) I Agree, Penny knows about the Island. HOW LONG she has known is the next question. I think she has known, or found out about it, in 1996.
2) Personally, I don't want to improve my game of manipulation, except when it comes to getting extra bites of candy from my kids! I would rather have dinner with Sayid or Daniel. Sayid could show me how to fix my radio and Daniel could teach me Kerr Metric! Just a practical matter.
3) Not sure what valuable information you would obtain? :eek2:

Penny was not listening for a signal from the island. She is the one who was calling in to it when the jamming went down. In TTLG, Charlie received an incoming transmission from Penny, and Penny asked him how he got that frequency, which tells us that she knew the frequency was special and that Charlie wasn't who was supposed to be there.

Wes, I wonder if Penny has been enlisted by Ben (or vice versa) in some way? Penny might be a great source of info for Ben on what is going on in Widmore's organization. Penny has some motivation to resent/resist her father, especially if she knew how involved he was (or might be) in Desmond's disappearance.

Originally Posted by wesb

Penny was not listening for a signal from the island. She is the one who was calling in to it when the jamming went down. In TTLG, Charlie received an incoming transmission from Penny, and Penny asked him how he got that frequency, which tells us that she knew the frequency was special and that Charlie wasn't who was supposed to be there. But she had no way to know that without lots of inside info on the island and Ben's people. I claim in The Three Kings theory that Widmore is or at least was Ben's boss and that Penny got the info from people in her daddy's organization.
Yeah, I know Penny sent the transmission to the Looking Glass. I was talking about in LT,DA when she had two Portuguese men listening for an electro-magnetic anomaly in the Arctic after the failsafe had been turned. This is what I meant by the signal that Penny was waiting to hear. This is probably where she inferred the information she needed to get the frequency that she used to call TLG station.


Originally Posted by simone5p

Penny knows about the freighter before it finds the island. We learn this from Minkowski. Penny also knows about the island by the time she speaks to Desmond, but I think she knew about the island before she spoke to Charlie. I don't think she was being truthful to Charlie because she didn't expect him to answer her call, and she didn't know who he was. "How did you get this frequency," she asks, so she didn't trust him. When Penny says, "What boat?" we know that she knows about the freighter because she has called it on more than one occassion.
SIMONE5P brings up a good point that I haven't considered. Penny did say "What boat," when she was talking to Charlie, but then Minkowski said that she had been calling the freighter over and over. Penny should have known what boat Charlie was talking about. One could reason that she didn't actually start calling the freighter until after she spoke to Charlie, but with all of the info Naomi had about them, I think she had been calling the freighter long before that. Of course, Penny didn't know who she was talking to and the conversation was too short for her to make the connection, who knows. Interesting point, nonetheless. Let's wait and see if Penny has intentions to ruin her father on top of trying to find Desmond.

Wes, I wonder if Penny has been enlisted by Ben (or vice versa) in some way? Penny might be a great source of info for Ben on what is going on in Widmore's organization. Penny has some motivation to resent/resist her father, especially if she knew how involved he was (or might be) in Desmond's disappearance.

This is a good point because Ben has not try to harm Desmond in any way, that I can remember. HOWEVER, if Penny is in love with him, Ben would let him go. UNLESS, he is holding Desmond captive to get Penny to do things for him! Is Desmond a hostage?

hmmm, penny saying "what boat", even though she's been dialing the freighter over and over.... nicely done ;)

I think Naomi was given the photo by someone on the boat that does know Penny. If it's not Naomi herself that Penny knows.
The logical person - to have known Penny, and have the photo - would be Daniel.

Penny also knows about the island by the time she speaks to Desmond, but I think she knew about the island before she spoke to Charlie. .We didn't see everything that transpired between Des and Daniel, back at Oxford - which is just an afternoon train ride away from Penny in London.
Des apparently told Daniel about the boat. Daniel's notebook suggests he may have told him about the island. Chatty, emotional Des would have definitely told Daniel about Penny.

Sometime later, Penny begins to move heaven and earth to find Des. It makes sense she and Daniel met. Daniel told her about future Des. Daniel's not known for his reticence. (Interestingly, in the Xmas phone call, Penny says something about thinking she was 'crazy').

On the way to meet Daniel, Penny took along a copy of the photo to make sure Daniel had met "her" Des.
On the freighter, Daniel carried his notebook that referenced Des and the island. It makes sense that he would have taken the photo, too.

The logical person - to have known Penny, and have the photo - would be Daniel.

We didn't see everything that transpired between Des and Daniel, back at Oxford - which is just an afternoon train ride away from Penny in London.
Des apparently told Daniel about the boat. Daniel's notebook suggests he may have told him about the island. Chatty, emotional Des would have definitely told Daniel about Penny.

Sometime later, Penny begins to move heaven and earth to find Des. It makes sense she and Daniel met. Daniel told her about future Des. Daniel's not known for his reticence. (Interestingly, in the Xmas phone call, Penny says something about thinking she was 'crazy').

On the way to meet Daniel, Penny took along a copy of the photo to make sure Daniel had met "her" Des.
On the freighter, Daniel carried his notebook that referenced Des and the island. It makes sense that he would have taken the photo, too.

I'm not saying Dan and Penny have not met, however:
You are assuming that Des and Daniel talked about Penny. Des wasn't in a chatty mood, as he was trying to save his life and never knew when he would slip from one time the next. Des was in a hurry, my guess, no chat happened.
So, "it makes sense she and Daniel met" would be based on? Just because they live in the same town or because Penny needed to find a scientist working on Ker Metric theories, electromagnetic radiation and time-slipping? Why would she need Daniel to find Desmond? If I was Penny, I wouldn't trust Daniel to be looking for Desmond, (FB on Daniel revieled he had a caretaker, in other words he isn't good about taking care of himself and Penny would do a background check to know this) but I would trust Naomi to find someone for me!
And why would Daniel give Naomi a picture of Desmond and Penny? Does Charlote and Miles also have a picture of Des and Penny?
When Daniel first got to the Island he set up some equipment... not a guy looking for Desmond.
Abaddon hired Daniel, Char, Frank and Naomi, not Penny, unless Abaddon works for Penny!
Could you help me here?

On the side about Daniel. He was crying when he saw the news stating they found the plane. Was Daniel somehow responsible for the crash? Was that why he needed a caretaker? Could Daniel have been timeslipping?

When Daniel first got to the Island he set up some equipment... not a guy looking for Desmond.
Yes, he set up equipment immediately because he was expecting some time weirdness. Why would he expect that, and why would he write in his notebook about Des, if Des had not told him about the island?

Yes, he set up equipment immediately because he was expecting some time weirdness. Why would he expect that, and why would he write in his notebook about Des, if Des had not told him about the island?

Desmond did tell him about the time-slipping, not sure if he mentioned the Island I will have to watch that again. What does that have to do with Penny? In the short, Daniel was helped by Des about the "time weirdness," so my question would be, did Daniel set up that equipment to send Des back? But as Dan set up the equipment Des hadn't gone back, yet. Oh, I'm so confused!:eek2:

ya he mentions an island, daniel says something like "island? Why would I be on an island?"

ya he mentions an island, daniel says something like "island? Why would I be on an island?"

So, it is possible that Dan researched the Island and later met Penny. I could see that. So, Dan in 2004 would do what ever it took to get onto the Island to keep the 1996 memory consistant. The only way to change his memory of the past would be NOT to go to the Island. If I was Dan I would do whatever it took to make sure Des goes back to 1996 and get onto this Island to do further research.
So why was Dan in the FF crying when he saw the wreckage of flight 815 on the TV? Des wasn't on the airplane. Does he know someone on the plane?

So, it is possible that Dan researched the Island and later met Penny. I could see that. So, Dan in 2004 would do what ever it took to get onto the Island to keep the 1996 memory consistant. The only way to change his memory of the past would be NOT to go to the Island. If I was Dan I would do whatever it took to make sure Des goes back to 1996 and get onto this Island to do further research.
So why was Dan in the FF crying when he saw the wreckage of flight 815 on the TV? Des wasn't on the airplane. Does he know someone on the plane?

It's also just as likely that Penny found out about the freighter and gave everyone on it a picture for all we know.

Well, I have a theory that says Daniel is crying because he knows all of the Losties that he meets on the island and when he sees the plane wreckage in the Sunda Trench, he (intuitively? or because of time-slipping) knows that his friends are dead. In fact, that could be the show coming full circle. Plane crash to plane crash.

It's also just as likely that Penny found out about the freighter and gave everyone on it a picture for all we know.

Well, I have a theory that says Daniel is crying because he knows all of the Losties that he meets on the island and when he sees the plane wreckage in the Sunda Trench, he (intuitively? or because of time-slipping) knows that his friends are dead. In fact, that could be the show coming full circle. Plane crash to plane crash.

Oh, how about this. Dan was time-slipping until he saw the plane on the bottom of the ocean on the tv screen? SO, the plane became his constant, but he didn't remember what happened before at the moment? In otherwords, like Des was FF, so did Dan, which would drive him a little crazy, which could count for the caretaker! So, the plane crash saved his life, so to speak. Anyone...????

Oh, how about this. Dan was time-slipping until he saw the plane on the bottom of the ocean on the tv screen? SO, the plane became his constant, but he didn't remember what happened before at the moment? In otherwords, like Des was FF, so did Dan, which would drive him a little crazy, which could count for the caretaker! So, the plane crash saved his life, so to speak. Anyone...????

But he wasn't involved in seeing the plane before that we know of, so the plane itself doesn't seem likely to be a constant. If he is sick from time-slipping, wouldn't he die soon?

Also the fact that he says he doesn't know why he's crying doesn't mean he doesn't know.

That Desmond was on the island was known to Widmore perhaps because of the signal the outpost found from the Elizabeth when the EM discharge occurred. I think Naomi was given the photo by someone on the boat that does know Penny. If it's not Naomi herself that Penny knows.


By my theory, Widmore has known about the island all along and once worked with Ben. He may just be the "great man" that Ben spoke of when Ben was captive in the hatch. The fact that Penny even knew to have people listening for the electromagnetic anomaly suggests that Penny also has some inside information about the island, which I'd suspect she got from a leak in her father's organization.

Naomi having the photograph is the easiest thing in the world to explain. Penny has been actively searching for Desmond. She's likely hired many people and has given out numerous copies of that photograph, which we saw was on her bedstand in the S2 finale. As a result, many people would have both the photograph and her name, which Naomi's people used as a fake cover story. (Now, I believe, they're using Penny's father as a fake cover story...)


Penny knows about the freighter before it finds the island. We learn this from Minkowski. Penny also knows about the island by the time she speaks to Desmond, but I think she knew about the island before she spoke to Charlie. I don't think she was being truthful to Charlie because she didn't expect him to answer her call, and she didn't know who he was. "How did you get this frequency," she asks, so she didn't trust him. When Penny says, "What boat?" we know that she knows about the freighter because she has called it on more than one occassion.


There's nothing Penny knew about the freighter and the island that she couldn't have gotten from her short conversation with Charlie. As she's the one who initiated the call that Charlie accepted, she knew about the frequency and had some idea of who she thought she was calling. (More information leaked from her father's organization) From her POV, she finally gets an answer to her call, Charlie tells her Des is alive, and then he's suddenly cut off. Would we expect that she wouldn't then repeatedly call back, trying to learn more? These are the calls Minkowski was likely referring to.


The fact that Penny was making a call to that frequency, either means she was trying to contact the freighter, and Bonnie and Greta were listening in, or she had a way to call The Looking Glass and was doing so when Charlie answered. If the latter, she expected Greta or Bonnie to answer her call, hence her questions to Charlie... what island, what boat, who's Naomi?


The third alternative, of course, is that her father had been in contact with the island in the past, and that she got the info from her father's organization and has been regularly following up on it. Charlie may have been the first one to actually answer her call.


I think Naomi was going to use the Desmond/Penny story to ingratiate herself with the Others should she be caught by them...and maybe do the favor for Penny her friend of looking for Desmond. She doesn't know there are any survivors of Flight 815 before she lands. But the story works on them too until they receive Charlie's "Not Penny's Boat" message which turns everything upside down again.

It gets even worse. Naomi said she was working for Penny and that she was searching for Desmond. Then, not only do the islanders contact Penny and catch the first part of her lie, but they get Desmond to the boat and the second part of their lie is exposed by their complete indifference to him.

Considering that they were caught completely lying, I'm amazed that anyone believes their "fallback lie," that they're actually working for Charles Widmore. They lied in the first place because they have something to hide. They aren't going to simply "come clean and tell all" about their real boss after being caught lying. Whatever their fallback story is (Widmore) we can be 99% sure that that would be a lie too...
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1) I Agree, Penny knows about the Island. HOW LONG she has known is the next question. I think she has known, or found out about it, in 1996.


As I think that Charles Widmore had been in communication with the island all along, the question of when she knew would be answered by finding out when someone in her father's organization gave her the info. It could have been any time after Desmond vanished, or even before, if she'd had an interested curiosity in what her father is doing...


2) Personally, I don't want to improve my game of manipulation, except when it comes to getting extra bites of candy from my kids! I would rather have dinner with Sayid or Daniel. Sayid could show me how to fix my radio and Daniel could teach me Kerr Metric! Just a practical matter.


Awwww... c'mon... do you honestly think that the only "game" you could improve by a verbal exchange with Widmore or Ben would be in manipulation? There are tons of others... I'd gain insights as to how two extremely perceptive people are able to size other people up... Knowing who my "opponents" were, I'd gain insights as to how I could be manipulated, learning more how to prevent it in the future... I'd learn about my own weaknesses in being emotionally degraded or emotionally twisted around... As I said, it would not be an easy exchange, but knowing that I'd be emotionally put through the wringer by someone remarkably skilled at doing so, I'd leave with fascinating insights about myself. Not to mention the fact that in spite of their faults, conversation with them would be absolutely fascinating.

While we all have to deal in real life with Emotional Dwarves who may wish to manipulate or degrade, these people are unsophisticated amateurs, who use these methods as crude bludgeons. They're obvious, annoying, and easily dealt with. Ben and Widmore use these methods as a surgeon wields a scalpel, and raise these techniques almost to super-power level. An over-dinner exchange with either of them would teach me a great deal about myself, as well as about The Worst Of People.

I'd jump at the chance.


3) Not sure what valuable information you would obtain? :eek2:

See above...
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Yeah, I know Penny sent the transmission to the Looking Glass. I was talking about in LT,DA when she had two Portuguese men listening for an electro-magnetic anomaly in the Arctic after the failsafe had been turned. This is what I meant by the signal that Penny was waiting to hear. This is probably where she inferred the information she needed to get the frequency that she used to call TLG station.


I don't think that Penny could infer the communications frequencies used by Ben's people, or the fact that they use a video conferencing channel rather than just voice, from measuring and locating the implosion of the hatch. They're not at all related. Besides, communications frequencies can be changed daily, at the twist of a dial...

The fact that Penny knew at all to be listening for the magnetic anomaly, and the fact that she knew the communications frequency both suggest that she had some inside information on the island ahead of time. I don't care how much money you throw into a search like hers, if you can't contact the people who have the information, you cant get the information.

In this case, there are likely to be very few people in the big wide world with the info she wanted and they were likely to be hiding behind some very heavy security, where finding them would be almost impossible. Unless...

...unless, people she happened to have easy access to just happened to be the ones who knew the information she wanted. People in her father's organization who've been involved with the island all along...
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This is a good point because Ben has not try to harm Desmond in any way, that I can remember. HOWEVER, if Penny is in love with him, Ben would let him go. UNLESS, he is holding Desmond captive to get Penny to do things for him! Is Desmond a hostage?

This is an interesting point. I've gone under the assumption that Penny has been trying without success to contact the island using frequencies that had previously been used by her father. But it's certainly possible that Ben's people actually have answered her and have been using their knowledge of Des to coerce her into providing information about her father. Hey, maybe Penny would even be the source from which Ben could score 3.2 million dollars...

On the side about Daniel. He was crying when he saw the news stating they found the plane. Was Daniel somehow responsible for the crash? Was that why he needed a caretaker? Could Daniel have been timeslipping?

I've always found it curious that anyone is surprised that Daniel would have been crying over the wreckage of flight 815. If my life involved these experiences...

My life's work is immersed in discovering a technique for time travel.
I'm visited by a consciousness from the future telling me that I'm right, my work will pan-out, and I'll someday see that person again on a journey to a mysterious island, interacting with survivors from a crashed flight 815. I'll be able to make more discoveries and complete my work.
I am anxiously waiting for the years to pass so that I can make the journey and the discoveries that will complete my life's work.
Right around the time I expect to make the journey, I see on TV that flight 815 has crashed, not on the island, but out in the middle of the ocean. I have no clue that this is fake; I presume that the universe has made some correction, and that things have changed so that I might not get to go to the island and complete my work....I'd be absolutely devastated, especially after all that waiting...

But he wasn't involved in seeing the plane before that we know of, so the plane itself doesn't seem likely to be a constant. If he is sick from time-slipping, wouldn't he die soon?

Also the fact that he says he doesn't know why he's crying doesn't mean he doesn't know.

If Dan just starting time-slipping in 2004, sending himself into the future a few days or weeks, than he would recognize the plane. Dan could have seen something in the future that made him cry, unrelated to the plane, came back to 2004 and was crying.
However, if Dan knows something which he has to keep secret I doubt he is going to turn around and explain everything to his caretaker. " I don't know," is an easy way of getting out of explainations.
Perhaps like Sayid, Dan will end up being used by Ben? :eek2:

Another idea: Did Desmond of the past (1996) remember the time-slipping of his future for more than a few hours? Did he eventually forget?
Have any of the "Three Kings" been time-slipping?
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My life's work is immersed in discovering a technique for time travel.
I'm visited by a consciousness from the future telling me that I'm right, my work will pan-out, and I'll someday see that person again on a journey to a mysterious island, interacting with survivors from a crashed flight 815. I'll be able to make more discoveries and complete my work.
I am anxiously waiting for the years to pass so that I can make the journey and the discoveries that will complete my life's work.
Right around the time I expect to make the journey, I see on TV that flight 815 has crashed, not on the island, but out in the middle of the ocean. I have no clue that this is fake; I presume that the universe has made some correction, and that things have changed so that I might not get to go to the island and complete my work.[/LIST]...I'd be absolutely devastated, especially after all that waiting...

Exactly! Just how long has Dan been time-slipping, because in his notes he has Desmond as his constant? It couldn't be too long.
Saying, "I don't know" to his caretaker could just mean he doesn't want to say anything.

Exactly! Just how long has Dan been time-slipping, because in his notes he has Desmond as his constant? It couldn't be too long.
Saying, "I don't know" to his caretaker could just mean he doesn't want to say anything.

Daniel's note about Desmond being his constant also included the preamble, "If anything goes wrong..." and it's possible that nothing has gone wrong. I don't think we have any reason to expect that Daniel is doing any time traveling, though you might be referring to a personal theory that he has, and that's fine.

But all that has to have happened is that he remembers Desmond's visit while he was at Oxford, that he's been waiting for years for what Desmond said to come true, and that now the TV report that flight 815 crashed at sea rather than on the island Des told Daniel about may have dashed his hopes to pieces.

If this is the case, then "I don't know" would be a much simpler answer to his caregiver than trying to give an actual answer. It's especially so if he's devastated that the universe may have "course corrected" him away from his chance to visit the island and complete his work, that he'd spent so many years waiting for...

Daniel's note about Desmond being his constant also included the preamble, "If anything goes wrong..." and it's possible that nothing has gone wrong. I don't think we have any reason to expect that Daniel is doing any time traveling, .

According to Daniel, having a constant *stops* the time-slipping.

We didn't see the initial island meeting between Des and Daniel... there was an odd cut away from the scene right after Des approached the helicopter. When they cut back, Des and Daniel were in the middle of a heated conversation. I think that was deliberate, to not tip viewers that Daniel had previously met Des and remembered him.

So Des, as Daniel's constant, either prevented or stopped Daniel from time-slipping. I think Daniel was either beginning to time-slip or at least was worried that he might. That would explain his stuttering, odd pauses for thought, etc., on the island. He didn't have them back at Oxford, at least not to that extent.
It also explains Charlotte's testing Daniel's memory. By the time we see them do the card thing, Des is on the freighter. Daniel is concerned about how that effects him. As long as he stays completely cognizant of his surroundings, retains his short and long-term memory of what's going on, that means he's not time-slipping.
Charlotte's obviously in the know about all the time stuff... she's watching Daniel closely and they prearranged some tests and signals.
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I've always found it curious that anyone is surprised that Daniel would have been crying over the wreckage of flight 815.

Well, it's not just the crying, it's how/why he ended up in Essex, Mass, US..
Daniel doesn't appear to be Brit, so I guess he had to go back home after he zapped his brain cells with all that radiation..
:biggrin: I just torpedoed my spec that Daniel's goofy island behavior was due to mild time-slipping. D'OH, I briefly forgot all about the radiation..

..., then "I don't know" would be a much simpler answer to his caregiver than trying to give an actual answer. It's especially so if he's devastated that the universe may have "course corrected" him away from his chance to visit the island and complete his work, that he'd spent so many years waiting for...

Not sure I think "course correcting" is actually happening. Didn't Ms. M. tell Des that there was nothing she could do to stop the guy in the red shoes from dying...etc. She was the one that brought up course correcting, rigth? I don't trust her. I think she was lying to set up Desmond. No one can predict the future, but our choice can change our future. I think Ben was trying to kill Charlie, while on the Island. Ben knew, by reading his profile, that Charlie was dangerous/a threat. If Charlie found a way to the Looking Glass, he could stop Ben from jamming transmissions. I don't think Des was ever suppose to stop Charlie from dying. I think Des was suppose to save Charlie from Ben. Thus, the visions.

I've always found it curious that anyone is surprised that Daniel would have been crying over the wreckage of flight 815. If my life involved these experiences...

My life's work is immersed in discovering a technique for time travel.
I'm visited by a consciousness from the future telling me that I'm right, my work will pan-out, and I'll someday see that person again on a journey to a mysterious island, interacting with survivors from a crashed flight 815. I'll be able to make more discoveries and complete my work.
I am anxiously waiting for the years to pass so that I can make the journey and the discoveries that will complete my life's work.
Right around the time I expect to make the journey, I see on TV that flight 815 has crashed, not on the island, but out in the middle of the ocean. I have no clue that this is fake; I presume that the universe has made some correction, and that things have changed so that I might not get to go to the island and complete my work....I'd be absolutely devastated, especially after all that waiting...

Good point. That does indeed answer the question of why Daniel was weeping.

According to Daniel, having a constant *stops* the time-slipping.

We didn't see the initial island meeting between Des and Daniel... there was an odd cut away from the scene right after Des approached the helicopter. When they cut back, Des and Daniel were in the middle of a heated conversation. I think that was deliberate, to not tip viewers that Daniel had previously met Des and remembered him.


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n..

Great catch! I'm going to have to go back and re-watch that scene.

Great catch! I'm going to have to go back and re-watch that scene.

Yes, me as well. Can you tell me which espisode? I forgot the title, guess I could figure it out..I've just been working in my yard all day and I'm so tired. Need to put the little ones to bed. THANKS!

Can you tell me which episode?
The Economist.

The Economist.

I read over this episode again and found something, which I'm sure other fans have noticed. Ben's passport, which is shown by Sayid, bears the name Dean Moriarty, of Switzerland.
Moriarty was Sherlock Holmes antagonist and supposedly died during a struggle with Holmes by falling into Reichenbach falls in Switzerland.
So, WHICH OF THE THREE KINGS IS HOLMES? Will Widmore be Ben's antagonist?

Not sure I think "course correcting" is actually happening. Didn't Ms. M. tell Des that there was nothing she could do to stop the guy in the red shoes from dying...etc. She was the one that brought up course correcting, rigth? I don't trust her. I think she was lying to set up Desmond. No one can predict the future, but our choice can change our future. I think Ben was trying to kill Charlie, while on the Island. Ben knew, by reading his profile, that Charlie was dangerous/a threat. If Charlie found a way to the Looking Glass, he could stop Ben from jamming transmissions. I don't think Des was ever suppose to stop Charlie from dying. I think Des was suppose to save Charlie from Ben. Thus, the visions.

I don't think that course correcting was happening either, but that misses the point. What was being discussed was why Faraday was crying. Seeing the news report of the fake 815 wreckage, he would naturally presume it was real. Based on that presumption, he could have thought that course correction had happened, and that all the things Desmond told him about when he visited him at Oxford would not be happening.

Faraday need not have been crying about what was happening, but what appeared to be happening.
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So, WHICH OF THE THREE KINGS IS HOLMES? Will Widmore be Ben's antagonist?

The first couple posts of this thread explains who the Three Kings of the theory are (including Widmore) and how their proposed activities might neatly explain how the story got set up the way it is. I suppose that some of the literary allusions suggested by TPTB's name selections might have some eventual significance, but since most casual viewers wouldn't be bothered to try to follow them up, I'd suspect they fit more into the "Easter Egg" category rather than having any solid story significance.

That's not to malign hunting for Easter Eggs; I'm glad other people do it so that I can appreciate their findings...

The first couple posts of this thread explains who the Three Kings of the theory are (including Widmore) and how their proposed activities might neatly explain how the story got set up the way it is.

I suppose that some of the literary allusions suggested by TPTB's name selections might have some eventual significance, but since most casual viewers wouldn't be bothered to try to follow them up, I'd suspect they fit more into the "Easter Egg" category rather than having any solid story significance.

That's not to malign hunting for Easter Eggs; I'm glad other people do it so that I can appreciate their findings...

Based on the theory of the Three Kings, who hires Abaddon?

I was thinking some of the Easter Eggs might lead to other clues, but some could be misleading as well. For instance, the picture of the woman holding the gerbil. Perhaps I'm mixing clues with Easter Eggs? :undecide:

Just been doing my Lost research, as usual, and found something interesting that I thought would be a good link to this thread. I bought the book "Bad Twin" yesterday and found that the main character, Paul Artisan, has a dog that he shares with an old friend and mentor. This dog's name is Argos.

Knowing that Argos was some sort of Greek reference, I went to Wiki to refresh my memory. I'm thinking, "OK, cool, this is a place in Greece, yet another Greek reference." As I read on, I learned that the city of Argos, between the 5th and 12th century BC, was being ruled by three kings at any one time. The kings were of the households of Bias, Melampus and Anaxagorus.

Thought this was a cool, real-life, reference that made me think of this thread. Maybe Wesb is on to more than just a creative layout for a theory, but also a central theme that the writers were planning all along.

Based on the theory of the Three Kings, who hires Abaddon?


I think that by most theories, Abbadon would either be or be working for The Man Behind The Freighter. Many would think that this is Widmore. I, OTOH, believe that this is a misdirection (consider that the primary sources of info on Widmore were people who've shown themselves to be liars, and that we curiously haven't seen a single scene of Widmore that actually connects him to the freighter...) I would expect that Abbadon's real boss is Paik, that Paik is behind the freighter, and that with Paik's people about to capture Ben's daughter, Ben will shortly be capturing Paik's daughter creating a very interesting standoff. (He's already tried it once, with the attempted abduction of the pregnant women...)


I was thinking some of the Easter Eggs might lead to other clues, but some could be misleading as well. For instance, the picture of the woman holding the gerbil. Perhaps I'm mixing clues with Easter Eggs? :undecide:

I guess I see Easter Eggs as "cool" little throwaway connections and references that they'll never have the time to give any real relevance to, but that are nonetheless fun discoveries for those who really like to search into the story details. They're gifts to the die-hard fans, while can safely go right over the heads of the casual viewers with no loss in understanding the story. That's my definition anyway...

thought this was interesting given the nature of this thread:

- Going to see more of Alan Dale, they said more than we might expect.

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(oh source is "the ODI", whatever that means lol, it was from dark)

I guess I see Easter Eggs as "cool" little throwaway connections and references that they'll never have the time to give any real relevance to, but that are nonetheless fun discoveries for those who really like to search into the story details. They're gifts to the die-hard fans, while can safely go right over the heads of the casual viewers with no loss in understanding the story. That's my definition anyway...

thanks for the clarification. This is really the first TV show I've gotten hooked on. I think when I was younger I liked to watch Gilligan's Island reruns. Hey, I see a pattern here! :biggrin:

I read over this episode again and found something, which I'm sure other fans have noticed. Ben's passport, which is shown by Sayid, bears the name Dean Moriarty, of Switzerland.
Moriarty was Sherlock Holmes antagonist and supposedly died during a struggle with Holmes by falling into Reichenbach falls in Switzerland.
So, WHICH OF THE THREE KINGS IS HOLMES? Will Widmore be Ben's antagonist?

Actually Dean Moriarity is a character in Jack Kerouac's On the Road (He based the character on real-life Neal Cassady). I think Doyle's Moriarity, the professor who is Holmes' archenemy, might have the first name James?

Actually Dean Moriarity is a character in Jack Kerouac's On the Road (He based the character on real-life Neal Cassady). I think Doyle's Moriarity, the professor who is Holmes' archenemy, might have the first name James?

Moriartiy's first name was never revealed. Moriarty had two brothers and one of his brothers was refered to as James Moriarty. There have been some Holmes fans who thought it was Robert, but not sure why.
Just the fact that it was a Swiss passport gave me the impression of the villian in Doyle's stories.

Apparently, the actor who playes Locke (name escapes me, I have a headache) called Mr. Andrews (Sayid) "Holmes" in a blooper, someone told me. Freudian slip?
Holmes, however, would never have become Moriarty's assassin.

Way to go Wes!

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2008-04-23-lost_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Way to go Wes!

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2008-04-23-lost_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Let me second that -- congrats on taking the Three Kings to a wider audience!

Darlton's "reviews" of your theory and others seem as deliberately confusing as always, and their comedy routine's become a bit stale -- given the last few episodes of "the island wants you to do X" you'd think they might have discussed the question of whether the island's really alive or not, just a bit. But it seems like there's possibly a big reveal in Damon's last comment...

Is Widmore going to die tonight? Or will we learn that Widmore's done away with Paik?

I thought Darlton's comments on the last theory were pretty interesting -- I've never heard them say so definitively that parts of a particular theory are accurate.

Hey, and what's in the water in upstate/western NY? Half of USA Today's reader theorists are from there.

Hey, and what's in the water in upstate/western NY? Half of USA Today's reader theorists are from there.

LOL, yes I caught that, too! Way to go Wes! You've been published! I told you should be a writer! I'm so proud! :)

Well, well, I think the people to be congratulated are the ones observant enough to be able to connect this thread with one little blurb in the paper -- and to do it correctly! I guess only a die-hard Lost Theorist could put those two together, so I congratulate you as well.

And thank you very much for your kind words...

But it seems like there's possibly a big reveal in Damon's last comment...

Is Widmore going to die tonight? Or will we learn that Widmore's done away with Paik?

I thought Darlton's comments on the last theory were pretty interesting -- I've never heard them say so definitively that parts of a particular theory are accurate.

Hey, and what's in the water in upstate/western NY? Half of USA Today's reader theorists are from there.

As far as the location of the winners goes, I'm guessin' that we all found out about the contest early or in the middle of the day on the day of the deadline. (That's when I saw a mention on a Lost blog....) Maybe those of us in the Eastern time zone just happened to find out early enough that we still had the time to cobble together an entry before the deadline...

As far as Darlton's comments go, I'm suspecting that the last line of their comments was just a playful chess reference, playing on my "Kings" metaphor, but that the part right before that might refer to...


The (strictly) rumors that Alex is going to get shot tonight, and so my comment about a standoff due to each side capturing the daughter of the other side's leader would not be possible. That would not reduce Sun's importance in the story build-up, but it would resolve it in a slightly different way.

...but that's strictly guesswork on my part. If so, then if any part of my theory were correct, they could "skip around" it and concentrate on one part that wouldn't strictly be completed.

That doesn't exclude any chance that a "King" might not get killed tonight, though that could be quite a big deal, this many episodes away from the finale. Still, it could happen. I'm waiting anxiously...

I knew it was you dude as soon as I read it today...kudos...(<>..<>)

Kudos Wes!
I like the Darlton comment
that Hanso is older than the other kings, so he's like a former king... Is their an heir to the Hanso line (besides Rachel Blake?)



in TLE Hanso says that his work is about helping a mentally ill loved one. I wonder if this is Libby? Libby as Hanso's grandaughter? She was in the mental hospital but we know naught about her except that she gave Desmond the boat providing him the means to get to the island. Then she also ends up on the island with Desmond and Hurley... a coincidence that we have never resolved.

It could be Paik is the man Ben is fighting against using Sayid as a hit man and Widmore is the "magnificent man" that recruited the Others. When Sun has Ji Yeon, Paik is nowhere around...despite Sun's dispair over her father's business... she can be quite ruthless like her father as we've seen... she loves him, so I wonder what has kept him from the sacred event....I think he would want to see his spare heir.

Paik's also the one who made the quarantine capable boat for Mittlewerk and his viral plague plan to address the V.E. If Mittlewerk broke from Hanso, I wonder if he has a new boss now... one who has the money to keep funding Mittlewerk?

Ben really plays with the Good Guys label a lot... and it's obviously an issue of perspective. Mittlewerk also believes he is a good guy. Does Paik have the same distorted view of himself.

Paik and Widmore are ruthless and resourceful, and that's all I know as far as their good/evil status. I think it's really relevant that perspective is also an issue of time and space which are not linear; humans are just incapable of experiencing them any other way... except when traveling to and from the island... or being Ms. Hawking.

...in TLE Hanso says that his work is about helping a mentally ill loved one. I wonder if this is Libby? Libby as Hanso's grandaughter? She was in the mental hospital but we know naught about her except that she gave Desmond the boat providing him the means to get to the island. Then she also ends up on the island with Desmond and Hurley... a coincidence that we have never resolved.

It could be Paik is the man Ben is fighting against using Sayid as a hit man and Widmore is the "magnificent man" that recruited the Others. When Sun has Ji Yeon, Paik is nowhere around...despite Sun's dispair over her father's business... she can be quite ruthless like her father as we've seen... she loves him, so I wonder what has kept him from the sacred event....I think he would want to see his spare heir.

Ben really plays with the Good Guys label a lot... and it's obviously an issue of perspective. Mittlewerk also believes he is a good guy. Does Paik have the same distorted view of himself.

Paik and Widmore are ruthless and resourceful, and that's all I know as far as their good/evil status. I think it's really relevant that perspective is also an issue of time and space which are not linear; humans are just incapable of experiencing them any other way... except when traveling to and from the island... or being Ms. Hawking.

Gee I always thougth that Libby was undercover at Santa Rosa, but you bring up a good point!
I noticed Paik's absence from the birth as well. I think he is just busy elsewhere.
Even if Ben turns out to be a "good guy" I will not believe it because of what he did to Goodwin and Juliet. I do feel sorry for him. I mean he was obviously used by Richard.
Otherwise, he is just selfish and needs his mommy very very badly. :biggrin:

But the fact is, the Others follow Ben because he's the only one who can talk to the island -- it's a rare and unusual skill. Now suddenly, a planeload of people arrive that's _packed_ with people with varying levels of the same skills. It's not a coincidence but a plan to undermine Widmore's authority on the island by bringing in outsiders who the Others may wish to follow instead. That's part of Hanso (or Mittelwerk's) plan to get his island back.

Wes, I apologize if this has been brought up before, but in light of the most recent epi, what do you all think of the idea that Widmore might have been the controller of the island who was purged? If Ben worked for Widmore from the get-go, but then determined that Widmore was up to no good, he and Widmore could be our main antagonists.

Ben seems to subscribe to the Mittelwerkian philosophy that it's OK for some people to die for the preservation of all (e.g., ordering the deaths of the "Looking Glass girls"). But he was clearly upset at the loss of Alex, and felt that Widmore had broken the "rules". Like an illegal move in chess.

I can't help feeling there is a link between Mittelwerk and Widmore. If Widmore lost the island in the purge (early '90's), and was actively looking for it (buying the logbook in '96, financing Henry Gale's circumnavigation, and Desmond's yacht race) while Hanso was playing cat-and-mouse with him, wouldn't he try to infiltrate Hanso's group as well?

Congrats on your in-print recognition BTW. Whenever anyone asks me what LOST is about, I refer them to this thread first, as I think it contains some of the more rigorous and clear thinking about the plot of the show.

If what Widmore says is true and the island was always his, and then Ben stole the island from him, when Mikhail says that he was recruited by a magnificent man do you think he means Hanso because Hanso was in charge of the Dharma Initiative? Or do you think he meant Widmore?

When did Hanso's reign of the DI end? Was it pre-purge? What about the AH/MDG incident of 1985?

Widmore said he'd been having nightmares and took to drinking scotch before bed... does he dream of what's happening on the island? Does he dream of something that Happened on the island? Or will happen?

Wes, I apologize if this has been brought up before, but in light of the most recent epi, what do you all think of the idea that Widmore might have been the controller of the island who was purged? If Ben worked for Widmore from the get-go, but then determined that Widmore was up to no good, he and Widmore could be our main antagonists.


All sorts of things are possible, and the writers could do what you've suggested. From what we've seen though, it was Dharma that was purged, and Dharma was under Hanso. By my theory here, I've expected that Widmore was Ben's boss, that he was the source of Ben's funding and the cause of his travel, and that Widmore was the "magnificent man" Ben spoke of in the Swan Hatch. Again by my theory, Widmore would have been the mastermind behind the purge, rather than the victim of it.

This would all make sense if, some time in the past, Ben threw off Widmore's yoke and became a free agent. A reasonable time for this would have been the Purple Sky Incident, where Mikhail claimed the sonar went out and the island could no longer be located. It's of course possible that the sonar was simply switched off, and the only means Widmore had of locating the island was taken away. In this situation, Ben indeed has taken the island away from Widmore.
100%
If what Widmore says is true and the island was always his, and then Ben stole the island from him, when Mikhail says that he was recruited by a magnificent man do you think he means Hanso because Hanso was in charge of the Dharma Initiative? Or do you think he meant Widmore?


That depends on exactly when the purge happened and when Mikhail was recruited. Any pre-purge recruitment would be Hanso. Post-purge would be Widmore, by my theory.


When did Hanso's reign of the DI end? Was it pre-purge? What about the AH/MDG incident of 1985?


I'm presuming that Hanso was always in charge of the DI. When it ended at the purge, Hanso was thrown out and Widmore stepped in.


Widmore said he'd been having nightmares and took to drinking scotch before bed... does he dream of what's happening on the island? Does he dream of something that Happened on the island? Or will happen?

This is totally wild speculation, but since the island was able to send dreams to Our Heroes on-island, and seems now to have taken to creating apparitions off-island, it may just be creating off-island dreams, as well. It seems at least like a pleasing idea that the island might be taking jabs at Widmore, but we have nothing to go on for that...
100%
BTW, for those interested, I'm still sticking to my guns about Paik being behind the freighter, even in the wake of TSOTTC. While Widmore may have been somewhat involved with it, or not, it still looks like a Paik-in-charge scenario would provide an extremely neat way to resolve a huge number of this season's quandaries:


It would hold the freighties attack at bay (Sun taken hostage)
It would get the freighties to take some of the Losties home (bargain with Paik for their help in rescuing Sun)
It would explain why the O6 ar supporting a cover story about their rescue (requirements/threats from Paik that would ensure keeping the island secret)
It would tie into the explanation of how Michael actually got rescued and smuggled into the USA, presumably without a passport. (Jin's watch has a transponder intended to locate the island. It's how Paik's people located Michael and recruited him.)
It would explain why they cut the scene at the point where Sayid revealed Michael as the saboteur. (Gault knew Michael was recruited by Paik, and that reveal couldn't be given to us at that moment.)
And it would resolve my favorite question in the list, why Sun and Jin were included at all in such a cast-heavy story, where everything they've done in the main storyline could have been assigned to other characters. These folks were planted in the story for a Big Payoff, which I think is about to occur.
In addition, it would also put Sun in danger from Ben, in the outside world. If Jin is in fact dead, it would provide for a remarkably dramatic scene in which he sacrifices his life to save the woman he loves and the daughter he will never see.

I've noticed that the Ben/Widmore conversation was totally lacking in any specifics, and that while the "you changed the rules" line was meant to have us believe it referred to the Alex execution, it could actually refer to some other doublecross Widmore has pulled in the wake of Paik also changing the rules. I've noticed that everything we learn of Widmore is indirect and could be false, and that we've never been shown Widmore doing anything that actually shows his connections anywhere. I've also noticed that official statements from TPTB about Widmore's role never start with "Widmore is..." but always, "Ben says that Widmore is..." which is remarkably surprising.

While I may be building a huge house of cards here, it seems that if the Paik-in-charge scenario could resolve all the items I've mentioned above, TPTB would do everything in their power to distract us from considering it. Such distractions might including trying to set up a fake Widmore-in-charge picture, that they could plausibly take back, when the time for the Real Reveal comes, in the season finale. Their taking it back would have to be done with finesse; by first revealing Widmore's real role in the story, letting it sink in that it contradicts some of the things we've already been told, and then revealing the places where Paik's role lies.

I've expected that Widmore was Ben's boss, that he was the source of Ben's funding and the cause of his travel, and that Widmore was the "magnificent man" Ben spoke of in the Swan Hatch. Again by my theory, Widmore would have been the mastermind behind the purge, rather than the victim of it.

This would all make sense if, some time in the past, Ben threw off Widmore's yoke and became a free agent. A reasonable time for this would have been the Purple Sky Incident, where Mikhail claimed the sonar went out and the island could no longer be located. It's of course possible that the sonar was simply switched off, and the only means Widmore had of locating the island was taken away. In this situation, Ben indeed has taken the island away from Widmore.
100%


That depends on exactly when the purge happened and when Mikhail was recruited. Any pre-purge recruitment would be Hanso. Post-purge would be Widmore, by my theory.
..

wesb, I totally agree about Widmore being behind the purge. I'm wondering, though, if Ben's double-cross of Widmore could have come earlier, perhaps years earlier, than the purple-sky incident. I realize that the purple-sky incident would be perfect because the loss of the sonar would make it impossible to reach the island. But Richard's presence as a mentor to the younger Ben, and Jacob's stake in the island, whatever that might be, would seem to me to argue that Ben might have shaken off Widmore's view of the island fairly early on, or in fact never shared his goals for the island and never intended to work with him at all, but rather used his resources to overthrow DI and then proceeded to turn on Widmore. Arguing against this would be the fact that the Others are obviously well-funded and it's hard to see where that money would come from if not from Widmore.

BTW, for those interested, I'm still sticking to my guns about Paik being behind the freighter, even in the wake of TSOTTC. While Widmore may have been somewhat involved with it, or not, it still looks like a Paik-in-charge scenario would provide an extremely neat way to resolve a huge number of this season's quandaries:


It would hold the freighties attack at bay (Sun taken hostage)
It would get the freighties to take some of the Losties home (bargain with Paik for their help in rescuing Sun)
It would explain why the O6 ar supporting a cover story about their rescue (requirements/threats from Paik that would ensure keeping the island secret)
It would tie into the explanation of how Michael actually got rescued and smuggled into the USA, presumably without a passport. (Jin's watch has a transponder intended to locate the island. It's how Paik's people located Michael and recruited him.)
It would explain why they cut the scene at the point where Sayid revealed Michael as the saboteur. (Gault knew Michael was recruited by Paik, and that reveal couldn't be given to us at that moment.)
And it would resolve my favorite question in the list, why Sun and Jin were included at all in such a cast-heavy story, where everything they've done in the main storyline could have been assigned to other characters. These folks were planted in the story for a Big Payoff, which I think is about to occur.
In addition, it would also put Sun in danger from Ben, in the outside world. If Jin is in fact dead, it would provide for a remarkably dramatic scene in which he sacrifices his life to save the woman he loves and the daughter he will never see.


While I may be building a huge house of cards here, it seems that if the Paik-in-charge scenario could resolve all the items I've mentioned above, TPTB would do everything in their power to distract us from considering it. Such distractions might including trying to set up a fake Widmore-in-charge picture, that they could plausibly take back, when the time for the Real Reveal comes, in the season finale. Their taking it back would have to be done with finesse; by first revealing Widmore's real role in the story, letting it sink in that it contradicts some of the things we've already been told, and then revealing the places where Paik's role lies.

I think, according to Lostpedia, that Widmore hired Paik to build a ship for him... so this could be Paik's ship? What if Paik, learning about the Island, decided to keep it for himself? So Paik is behind Nadia's murder and is trying to pit Ben and Widmore against each other? What if Paik has been feeding Ben lies for years, and even the lie about Widmore being behind the fake crash site?

So..
1) The freighter doesn't attack anymore, because maybe Des and Sayid are now in control?
2) Michael blows up the freighter and the O6 wait on a different Island for rescue?
3) O6 have a cover story to keep Widmore and Paik away from the Island, until they can find a way back to rescue their friends. Also to protect Aaron and Sun???
4) Mr. Friendly found Michael.. with the help of the watch.. so he could be Paik's spy?
5) Perhaps the captian already knows about Michael and is also working with Ben, which is why Sayid takes over the boat.. he may find out about the Freighty Rambo guys on the killing sprey on the Island. Frank and Sayid set out to rescue who they can???
6) I so agree! I think Sun and Jin have a really cool story coming up! Like David and Goliath thing. The little fisherman takes out the big shark! MAYBE????

What do you think about Jin possibly still being alive on the Island in order to keep it hidden and Sun, Jack and Hurley will go back???? Not sure about Kate.

So..
1) The freighter doesn't attack anymore, because maybe Des and Sayid are now in control?

I was thinking more like, if Paik is in charge of the freighter, and Ben's people have Sun as a hostage, then the freighties stand down because they can't risk getting the Big Boss' daughter killed.


2) Michael blows up the freighter and the O6 wait on a different Island for rescue?

More like, if Ben's people have Sun hostage and she could die at any time, Paik might cut a deal with Our Heroes to take them home in return for their help in rescuing Sun. Why only a few actually make it off the island is a story detail yet to be understood. I'd suspect that some crisis on the island results in exactly one helicopter-load of people being brought to the freighter, perhaps only those near it when it leaves, and that there's no way they can go back...


3) O6 have a cover story to keep Widmore and Paik away from the Island, until they can find a way back to rescue their friends. Also to protect Aaron and Sun???

Remember that Paik presumed that he owned Jin after doing the money favor for Sun. He'd likely presume that he owned the O6 after rescuing them, too. One condition of rescue might be that they follow a cover story, and that all would die if any told the truth, but that's pure speculation.


4) Mr. Friendly found Michael.. with the help of the watch.. so he could be Paik's spy?

More like Paik's people may have recruited Michael, and then Ben had Tom do the same. That would make Michael a double agent, having made a deal with _two_ devils...


5) Perhaps the captian already knows about Michael and is also working with Ben, which is why Sayid takes over the boat.. he may find out about the Freighty Rambo guys on the killing sprey on the Island. Frank and Sayid set out to rescue who they can???

Or perhaps the Captain knew that Michael was the one rescued by Paik's people, but Michael didn't know that he knew. They've been watching Michael, wondering what he was doing trying to get onto the freighter, or even how he knew the freighter was heading back to the island. The captain did not look surprised that Michael was the saboteur, but he did not look pleased that Sayid unmasked him, either. I think that Sayid revealed more to Michael than he did to Gault.


6) I so agree! I think Sun and Jin have a really cool story coming up! Like David and Goliath thing. The little fisherman takes out the big shark! MAYBE????


I've just wondered why TPTB had to introduce a character like "rich evil industrialist's daughter, stranded on an island," and then not only make her no different from anyone else, they made her just a small step above a redshirt; not even playing a significant part. Now that she's about to leave the island, I'm just suspecting that they'll actually make some use of her having the unusually distinctive background that she has. And if Paik is in charge of the freighter, she suddenly becomes remarkably important.

super long shot, just want it out there if it plays out tonight :), and this is from previews so I'm gonna spoiler font!!
New preview shows juliet letting daniel/charlotte go to medical station with SUN, and juliet gives jin the gun, saying shoot them if they try to run off. Long shot spoiler - juliet's still working for ben, ben wants sun, this trek to the staff hatch allows it to happen ;)

I've noticed that the Ben/Widmore conversation was totally lacking in any specifics, and that while the "you changed the rules" line was meant to have us believe it referred to the Alex execution, it could actually refer to some other doublecross Widmore has pulled in the wake of Paik also changing the rules.

Possibly, but wasn't Ben clear that he was going to kill Widmore's daughter b/c Widmore killed his daughter?

Possibly, but wasn't Ben clear that he was going to kill Widmore's daughter b/c Widmore killed his daughter?

Well now, even by the more common interpretation that Widmore is in charge, Widmore did not kill Alex. To get all literal on you, it was Keamy, acting quite independently, as far as we know. They certainly didn't plan to capture Alex; that was just a fortuitous occurrence. So I think we can agree that Ben is holding Widmore responsible because he is connected with the events that resulted in the execution of Alex. But how connected does he have to be for Ben to hold him responsible? I think that's entirely up to Ben, and in his emotional state in that part of the story, he may well be very generous with his blame.

If Widmore is behind the freighter this would be one way, but is it the only way? Is Widmore perhaps more loosely connected with what"s going on, but still connected enough that Widmore has merely made it onto Ben's "list," even though he may not be at the top of the list? (From what we've seen in "The Economist," Ben's list may be quite large...)

Let's consider the consequences of this. If Paik is more closely connected to the freighter and Widmore merely one of the players in the game who Ben still holds "responsible," then everything we've seen is still reasonable. In addition though, Sun is in even more danger than Penny; we just haven't been shown it, yet.

It's also interesting that we've got the spoiler that Sun's actress was also flown to London to do a "secret" filming with the Widmore character. I'm suspecting that this will tie-in because Ben believes that Paik also "killed" Alex...

I'm gonna digress a bit, if you don't mind... It's interesting that Charlotte has been shown to make a completely empty promise to get Sun aboard the group that does leave the island. My very first impression was that at the last moment, she could easily doublecross Jin and abandon Sun. And it's not like she really has any say anyway in who goes and who stays, so what's the point of even showing it? Actually, from a storytelling standpoint, it's brilliant...

It gives the writers license to show Charlotte and Daniel expressing more interest in Sun without drawing our attention to the fact that they've gotta be interested in her anyway because her daddy is heavily involved in the freighter, and they need to rescue the Big Boss' daughter. Now suddenly, the casual viewer will have reason not to be suspicious when they favor her as they would have to have done anyway...

The fact that Charlotte just happens to speak Korean doesn't prove anything conclusive, but it would be more consistent with an eventual Paik connection, as well.

Now, I could be building up a huge house of cards here, but there are just so many interesting things that could happen if Paik were suddenly revealed to be The Second Big Player in this story, and there are so many interesting little details that are just right for distracting us from that possibility. This at least has the potential for an enormous reveal with lots of amazing wheels-within-wheels twists and consequences. If that's so, then TPTB would make huge efforts to not only hide the fact but perhaps even to distract us with a "false impression" that could easily and plausibly fall away as the Real Reveal were gradually made.

IOW, if I'm wrong, we might see exactly the things we've seen. But if I'm right, we'd also see exactly the things we've seen. The Big Reveal would almost certainly have to happen before Sun leaves the island, as she becomes a big bargaining chip between Ben's people and the freighter folk, so it's really likely that we'll know for sure in the next few weeks.

It'll be fun to see whether I've called it right or not...

Possibly, but wasn't Ben clear that he was going to kill Widmore's daughter b/c Widmore killed his daughter?

But Ben didn't say "Penny", did he? Is Annie Widmore's daughter, and is she still alive?
Just a thought.

Ben said, "Penelope, isn't it?" So he definitely meant Penny.

Well now, even by the more common interpretation that Widmore is in charge, Widmore did not kill Alex. To get all literal on you, it was Keamy, acting quite independently, as far as we know. They certainly didn't plan to capture Alex; that was just a fortuitous occurrence.

If Widmore is behind the freighter this would be one way, but is it the only way?

The fact that Charlotte just happens to speak Korean doesn't prove anything conclusive, but it would be more consistent with an eventual Paik connection, as well...

It'll be fun to see whether I've called it right or not...

1) I so agree with you.. I'm guessing that Widmore's only orders were to get Ben.
2) Good thinking! You're a natural detective.
3) You are so close to what I was guessing. I wrote my thread here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=94223
I think Paik is trying to get Ben and Widmore fighting so they don't see him coming!
Also, we've seen Miles as opportunist, why not the Rambo Freighter guys?

Mr Wes Brzozowski, I know I wasn't the first to notice, but half way through that USA today post with lost theories, I knew it was yours. Otherwise, I was ready to get really pissed at someone for stealing your theory. Good job man.

It'll be fun to see whether I've called it right or not...

Wes.. I agree that Paik is involved somehow... he definitely is already in a partnership with Hanso and Widmore and their enterprises... but the Helgus Antonius built by Paik as a quarantine capable hospital ship was launched in 2006, not even completed in 2004. The Kahana freighter is nowhere near the size of the Helgus either. Also the Helgus was last seen loading up with Hanso Foundation cargo containers.

One idea is that Jack returns to the island aboard this vessel...in 2006.

I'm not sure the freighter is Paik's, but there MAYBE someone of his on board... for instance perhaps Kemmy (the Rambo dude) really works for Paik and he is trying to pit Ben against Widmore. If he gets the two fighting against each other they may not see him coming!

But Ben didn't say "Penny", did he? Is Annie Widmore's daughter, and is she still alive?
Just a thought.


I thought the same thing that Annie might be Widmores daughter but.....
I have read on other blogs that there is a rumor that Annie is Widmores daughter and was dying of a fatal disease so Widmore put her on the island but after the purge has not heard from her or her caretakers since..... this is a rumor and not considered a spoiler, but put it in spoiler font just in case.

ben absolutely, no doubt says 'penelope, is it?' to widmore

You are correct JoeyBoy. What the question is, could Annie also be a Widmore?

ben absolutely, no doubt says 'penelope, is it?' to widmore Thanks, that went right by me! I haven't had a chance to rewatch this yet, even tho it's my favorite episode of the year.

You are correct JoeyBoy. What the question is, could Annie also be a Widmore?

So, if Widmore killed Alex it was because Ben had already killed his daughter, Annie?
Whoah! That would paint a different picture!
I'm still sticking to my theory that Annie died in child birth, which could be construed as Ben killing his daughter, if the child was Ben's.
I feel Ben has betrayed Widmore in the past, hence their bad blood.

I thought the same thing that Annie might be Widmores daughter but.....
I have read on other blogs that there is a rumor that Annie is Widmores daughter and was dying of a fatal disease so Widmore put her on the island but after the purge has not heard from her or her caretakers since..... this is a rumor and not considered a spoiler, but put it in spoiler font just in case.

Whoa - I really like that alot!!!! Talk about getting into some messy guilt/loved lost/relationship issues!

I friggin love this show!!!:biggrin:

Whoa - I really like that alot!!!! Talk about getting into some messy guilt/loved lost/relationship issues!

I friggin love this show!!!:biggrin:

LOL, yes it is addicting isn't it?! :biggrin: I love your avatar... "Walt made me do it" way cool.
Hurley is now looking for the cabin. Can't wait to see what Hurley thinks of Jacob!

great thread, wes and all !

i think charlotte speaking Korean must indicate that Paik has an involvement in the freighter or at least some of the crew.

great thread, wes and all !

i think charlotte speaking Korean must indicate that Paik has an involvement in the freighter or at least some of the crew.

I would sure love to hang onto that as a connection, and it's on my growing list of things that seem to point to Paik. Of course I think Charlotte is conversant in a number of languages. There was the one line in the Charlotte flashback where she had a Tunisian newspaper with the OF815 story on it in French, and her companion asked her how many languages she was going to read the story in. So Charlotte is a polyglot and TPTB have maintained their usual skill in keeping the clues as ambiguous as possible.

Still, the fact that she's actually fluent in the language (I can make my way reading several languages that I cannot really converse in; moving on to fluency is a much huger leap) is one of those things that could be used to plausibly set her up for a closer association with Paik, and I think that a lot of the story has been set up to show his intimate association with what's happening right now.

I would sure love to hang onto that as a connection, and it's on my growing list of things that seem to point to Paik. Of course I think Charlotte is conversant in a number of languages. There was the one line in the Charlotte flashback where she had a Tunisian newspaper with the OF815 story on it in French, and her companion asked her how many languages she was going to read the story in. So Charlotte is a polyglot and TPTB have maintained their usual skill in keeping the clues as ambiguous as possible.

Still, the fact that she's actually fluent in the language (I can make my way reading several languages that I cannot really converse in; moving on to fluency is a much huger leap) is one of those things that could be used to plausibly set her up for a closer association with Paik, and I think that a lot of the story has been set up to show his intimate association with what's happening right now.

Yes, I noticed this too about Char. However, Abbadon could have recruited someone else, a bit more muscular, to do Char's job. Yet he seemed to need her. Something about Char makes her just the right candidate for the Island and for Paik, IMO.

I also agree that Charlotte knew Korean because she is in partnership with or working for Paik. Although, because Charlotte is an Anthropologist, she may simply know many different languages due to her studies and research.

I also agree that Charlotte knew Korean because she is in partnership with or working for Paik. Although, because Charlotte is an Anthropologist, she may simply know many different languages due to her studies and research.

Okay, who is Keamy working for? Obviously the Captain believed his orders were to just get Ben out. Maybe Keamy is going mad just like Danielle's people did?
OH, I just HATED seeing the captain shot. I still think he had more to do. PLEASE, DON"T LET THE CAPTAIN DIE! :frown:

Maybe Keamy is going mad just like Danielle's people did?

Thank you for bringing this back up. I completely forgot Capt'n said Keamy might be going crazy like some of the other freighties. I vote for that!!

I would sure love to hang onto that as a connection...

Speaking of connections... have you read about the Philidelphia Project and how simular it seems to be to our LOST phenomenon? Let me know what you think! Thanks!

I would sure love to hang onto that as a connection, ...

The connection I'm still haning on to is Libby working for Widmore or Dharma or the same? I rewatched the Room 23 video http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Room_23 and saw that boat again and couldn't help but notice how much it looks like Desmond's boat!

Wesb: Nothing new to add to your theory board?

It's been a long time since I've posted anything to this thread. At the risk of getting into a little trouble, I'm going to post a fraction of something I've already posted elsewhere on the board, because I think it's really relevant here. It relates to Miles' abduction in "Some Like it Hoth..."

1) Miles almost certainly thought that Ben was on the same side as his abductors, as he brought up the 3.2 million number to Ben, same as he did to the abductors. It looks like he was saying, look, I already named my price to you people; it still stands. But...

2) The abductors used the same "know what's in the shadow of the statue" slogan to Miles. I don't think he knew any more of what it meant than we do. But Ilana's people used it, so I'm guessing that the abductors were on the same side as Ilana's people. But...

3) Ben shot one of Ilana's people, making it awfully likely he's not on their side. That might suggest then they're on Widmore's side, Except...

4) The abductors, who I'm suggesting are aligned with Ilana's group, tried to persuade Miles _not_ to work for Widmore, so they're neither with Widmore _or_ Ben, which suggests...

5) That there's yet another mysterious agent, jockeying for control, in the background.

Now, I've been saying here that Widmore, Darma/Hanso and Paik were the Three Kings, all jockeying in the background for control of the island. Since this theory came out, Widmore has come on stage as a Player of Importance. I think that the next Big Player will soon be revealed, and since we've been shown so much of Dharma that it'll be Dharma/Hanso that's the one.

Will we see Paik unmasked next season?

3) Ben shot one of Ilana's people, making it awfully likely he's not on their side. That might suggest then they're on Widmore's side, Except...


Are we sure of this? I kind of thought that maybe Ben is working with Ilana and Bram, and shot Cesar to get him out of her way once Ben and Locke left.

Are we sure of this? I kind of thought that maybe Ben is working with Ilana and Bram, and shot Cesar to get him out of her way once Ben and Locke left.

You're right that we're not absolutely sure of anything... all we really saw was that several people seemed to be behind Caesar when he tried to stand in the way of taking a boat. Shooting him made the others a little... less motivated. Could Caesar and those who were with him be separate from Ilana's group? Sure. The writers can do anything they want. Nonetheless, it starts getting extra-complicated if even the extras are conflicted with each other. Either way could be what the writers are doing, but I'm betting on the simpler explanation. We'll see...

not verbose in the least my brother,wish i had the inclination to put my posts up so eloquently(long live the english language and those who choose not to butcher it on purpose)

2) The abductors used the same "know what's in the shadow of the statue" slogan to Miles. I don't think he knew any more of what it meant than we do. But Ilana's people used it, so I'm guessing that the abductors were on the same side as Ilana's people..


Hi Wes! Bram, Ilana's sidekick was one of Miles' abductors.