Hi there all,

I have spent hours (and hours and hours) surfing the board looking for answers to - well, "stuff", if only so that I can get a good night's sleep and stop dreaming about Lost.* Perhaps if I remembered more of these dreams then I might be able to provide some interesting theories on what's going on?

Anyway, coming from a film and television background I'd like to pur forward my "industry" experience in providing a way of considering whether we are over-analysing some of the plot-lines just a little - and whether this analysis (and the expectations that go along with it) will ultimately cause disheartenment when the answers are finally revealed to us.

I'm sure "creme" will have something to say about this post regardless (love your work, girl).* My apologies to the writers and producers if I am underestimating the power of your very impressive work as well - that is not my intention.

In terms of appealing to the wider audience and the battle for air-time supremacy, it is often considered that the simplest explanation is the most effective one - no matter how many "curve balls" you throw into the mix .* I guess this may rule out theories such as the Butterfly Effect and Chaos which may be just a little over the heads of most individuals in the target group (but did provide me with hours of intrigue).* Having said that, I believe that concentrating on "Deus Ex Machina" may be an important aspect in the overall scheme of things.* "The gun that kills the victim in the 3rd act must be shown in the 1st act".* Of course we all know the significance of the term and are looking forward to closure on that one.

If you were to put forward the simplest, most plausible explanation - given the facts that have been presented - what would it be?* As I re-watch the series during the hiatus, I will certainly put forward my "best guesses" for your edification.

I don't have a background in the film or television industry but I've read approximately five thousand murder mysteries, and very often the clue that solves it is in the first chapter or even the first few pages, and it's often almost a throwaway line.* And then they spend many many pages obscuring the clue.* So, I take your point.

Going on that basis, although I don't have an overall theory for what's going on, I think that the clue is in the pilot episodes.* I think they were taken there deliberately, because the pilot never announced the radio problem or the fact that he was turning the plane around, and nobody noticed the plane turning around.* And if this flight took off in the daytime, somebody would have to notice that the sun changed direction.* (Of course, I'm assuming it took off around 1-2 in the afternoon but I could be wrong there.)**

But anyway,* I don't think it ever turned around period -- I think it headed straight for wherever they are.* But for whatever reason they had to believe that they were stranded on an island and that nobody woud be looking for them, hence the pilot's "1000 miles off course."* They also couldn't be allowed to send out a signal, so the French transmission serves two purposes: it blocks their own signal, and it lets them know that they are probably going to be stranded there for a long time.* (Or three purposes -- because when someone does find the French woman, she let's them know that they are well and truly stranded.* And she's also convenient for confirming any other suspicions they might have, like Hurley's belief that the numbers are cursed, and Sayid's calculation that she's been there for 16 years.)

The turbulence began with a jolt and then there was a pause long enough for Jack to exchange a few words with Rose -- and then chaos.* I've wracked my brains trying to think of what that might mean, but I've got nothin'.* But I do think it means something.* (Why oh why did I never become a pilot?)

I've wondered if they could have been extracted from the plane somehow before it crashed, but probably not.* (It's been done in other films, but the plane was flying steady at the time).* Could they have been drugged through the masks -- probably, but Kate was slower getting hers on and she saw things break up, or so she says.* So I have no explanation for how they could deliberately crash a plane and still have the "right" people (or person) survive, and unless Kate was lying the plane broke up in midair.* I do note that they've shown Kate to be a pretty smooth liar, though.

Why someone would want to strand them on an island I have no idea, but I think they were put there deliberately, they're being deliberately spooked, and that there is something really simple that I'm overlooking or that I've assumed, or have been led to assume by the fiendishly clever writers.

Gee, that's pretty long-winded -- sorry.* *:laugh:*

*Which brings up a small point -- how fast would it get dark if you were flying from Sydney to L.A. or north in general?* Given the time differences and all.*

Hey Kato - thanks for the response.

It's good to hear that someone hasn't allowed themselves to get caught up in too many "assumed" theories.* I am also not trying to do that myself, however going by the fact you have over 300 odd posts then I'm sure you've been caught up in your share of speculation - and good on you* :)

The timeline of events with regard to the "jolt" on the plane is very interesting.* So - what causes these things?* We didn't hear of an explosion on board, but that doesn't mean that there may not have been something going on in the CARGO HOLD of the plane (at the rear).* Remember when Charlie was getting his fix in the toilet on the plane and all of a sudden he hit the ceiling? That, and the pre-disposing turbulence that happened on board, would indicate to me that there was some kind of trauma that happened to the plane - whether it was hit by an object or whether something had indeed happened down below where the passengers were sitting.* Were they fired upon from below or, indeed, from the island itself?* By whom?* And why? ... There is a distinct "military" feel about the whole situation.* Rousseau and her team seemed to be serving some kind of military purpose - and what of Locke who seems to have such an interest in war to coincide with his obvious familiarity with covert military operations?* Let's face it - you don't learn THAT much at scouts.* Sayid also has a background in such things.* T

he transmission of the numbers from the island could have been there deliberately (again, a blackout for military purposes) and could be the reason for a radio and radar blackout on the plane - but surely this aircraft, and others, could have flown that very same route many times with no incident?* One thing I think is important - there is definitely someone on that plane that caused or was the reason for the crash - either directly or indirectly.* Whether it was supernaturally or via more sinister means (e.g. terrorist activity) is anyone's guess.* That person may have even died in the crash - but you can bet one or more of the survivors has some kind of connection with whoever it was - as the "6 degrees of separation" thread keeps coming up in various flashbacks between the characters.* This would also tie in with your theory that they were "taken there deliberately".

I can see the most poignant piece of information we are likely to receive in the next ep or 2 (or three, or the next series but I hope not!) will be what actually went on in the cockpit of the aircraft at that time.*

I reckon once we have that under our belt then we'll be sleeping a lot sounder at night.

You're right, I've done my fair share of speculation Suzzy.* *:laugh:*

The cargo hold... now that you mention it, where Vincent would have been in a carrier especially made to withstand turbulence and such without opening.* If his carrier opened during the turbulence, he would be flying around like a loose cannon in there being knocked into everything else, and how on earth would he survive that?* If his carrier did not open during the turbulence, how did he get out?*

The door on the pet carriers that the airlines required me to use fastened at both the top and bottom, so it's unlikely that a convenient bump would open it.

(See, I can get caught up in some petty detail like this and waste hours picking it apart -- hence the numerous posts.)*

The military angle -- hmm I haven't explored that much, but you make a good point.* I will have to mull that over.* That war game in the lunch room has always nagged at me.*

I also believe that something critical happened to Locke after the aborted Walkabout but before he got on that plane.* If someone or something on that plane caused the crash, I think Locke knew who or what it was.* He has far too much information that he shouldn't have.

I would love to see what happened in that cockpit.* (Oh please, writers!)**

(Are you Australian by any chance?)

Hmmm! Kato, I've been known to chuck a few shrimps on the barbie ....yep! I'm an Aussie. Proves you really do have some pretty fierce methods of deduction.

I, too have some issues with how the dog managed to free itself of it's confines - after all, if the crash was violent enough to break open the pet carrier, then surely it was a miracle the dog survived without so much as a scratch. Is this a good time to mention I was ground staff for Qantas for 7 years? ... ;) Animals are generally kept away from each other in areas of the hold sectioned off with netting so he wouldn't have flown around too much anyway. It's also interesting to note that not all areas of the cargo hold are pressurised, so was there something hidden in one of the unpressurised sections of the hold that was "triggered" by being under pressure when they arrived at a height of 33,000 feet off the coast of Australia?

There is no doubt that Locke is a critical key in the Lost mystery. That guy knows FAR too much about EVERYTHING. The thing that intrigues me so much about him is that he "knows" what the island wants. When Charlie needed to give over his drugs, Locke said something about "giving the island something in return" for his guitar. And what is HE going to give the island in return for his ability to walk again in that case (and is that what the Deus ex Machina means)? Is it just me, or do you get the feeling that he has been there before? He doesn't need his compass any more ...

For me, the story reeks of military gameplay - perhaps something to do with nuclear testing (hence the french woman and the "sickness"...) or something even more covert? This angle seems to be able to provide more plausible explanations for a lot of events than anything else I can think of.

I am looking forward to seeing more of Locke as you mention - there seems to be a fair chunk of info missing there. And, of course, what happened in the cockpit - but they may just keep that little gem for the final ep in series one.

Not too fierce, I just didn't think that "good on you' had made it into the general American lexicon yet. :)*

Ah, I didn't know about the netting in cargo but that makes sense.* But if you worked on the ground crew, you know what I mean about the carrier locks -- you have to undo both of them to open the door, and they're kind of springy slide bolts -- they couldn't just be knocked open, you have to hold them down to release them.* And if the hinges were busted, they'd still keep the door from opening very wide.* Good point that anything violent enough to bust up the carrier would kill the dog.* It seems to me that the only possible answer to that puzzle is that someone let the dog out.*

A trigger -- hmmmm.* I didn't think about the air pressure angle.* Very interesting!*

Locke knows far too much, and if he isn't psychic where's he getting it all?* And since he could walk before he met up with the Thing in the jungle, whatever he gave up it was before that point.* *I could totally buy that he has been there before.* He's like a native acquainting the tourists with the local phenomenon.* Why was it his destiny to do the Walkabout -- why destiny and not just his heart's desire or his life's ambition or his dream in life.* And is he still delusional, or did it somehow cure him of that too -- because he was living in a fantasy world in Tustin.*

GL-12:* (o.s.)* Your troops are across enemy lines.
LOCKE:* Patience -- a quality which you lack, GL-12, is the hallmark of a leader.

I wonder if Locke gave GL-12 his code name.* We've had I think seat 23A (A23?)* and the copier C-815.*

Nice to see some Aussie lingo....my hubby is Aussie, and I was just there for three months this past year...what an experience. Now I have often pondered this "why isn't the dog in the cage" thing as well. There was mention of someone working for Qantas, perhaps you can answer this (as my husband isn't sure), do live animals have to be kept in quarantine BEFORE leaving AUS or just when entering the US? I am not sure why this would even be of great importance I was just wondering.....

My experience is that the quarantine is in the destination country, if they do have a quarantine rule.* In countries that don't quarantine pets, you generally just need proof of a rabies shot and a certificate of fitness to travel from the vet.* Taking a dog into Australia is a whole other matter, though.

Just want to throw in a quick bit if dialog that I think supports the theory that the plane crash was planned. In episode 2 or 3 (I can't remember...) Sayid and Kate are walking in the jungle discussing the crash. Sayid is expressing his disbelief that so many of them survived the crash - he says something to the effect that their plane broke apart in mid-air and cartwheeled through the jungle, let over 40 of them got away with only scratches. Kate counters by saying that people survive plane crashes all the time, but Sayid says something about "not like this one."

Why drop in that conversation with no reason?

I could swear that Sayid also said something at one point about nobody noticing the plane turn around, but I'm darned if I can find it in any of the available transcripts, and I don't remember the episode.*

And Kate's response was kind of odd too, people do survive plane crashes but not generally the kind where the plane breaks up and drops out of the sky.

The thing is...who? A character we haven't seen yet? The ever interesting Ethan? A main character? The Island? The Dog? There are only a few things/people who could have done such a thing. I know there is a thread around here somewhere where it illustrates who sat where. For sure, we know Jack, Rose, Charlie, Locke, Shannon, Boone, Kate and the Marshall were not in some cargo hold or what not. Jin and Sun seemed to be standing in line and no where near a point where they could get into a cargo hold (assuming the reason for the plane crash emanated from the plane itself) so I rule them out as well. We are left with Sawyer, Sayid, Michael, Walt, Hurley, and Claire. I don't believe I have actually physically seen any of the last lot on the plane during the minimal plane scenes that we have had. To figure it out logically, Claire, doubtful that she would have stowed away because she was given tickets. Michael and Walt, hardly, because they were also given tickets and I don't see Michael allowing Walt back there. There is no reason for Hurley to stowaway for some nefarious reason. Thus, leaving us with Sayid and Sawyer. I would be disappointed if it was Sayid "the Iraqi blew up the plane" is way too easy of an answer and feeding into many misconceptions and prejudice. Therefore, Sawyer. Sawyer isn't his REAL name, so unless he has a host of fake ID, he wouldn't be getting far on the plane. He could have been a stowaway, but I honestly don't see him blowing up the plane.

I don't really even know where I am going with this, I just thought I would put it out there for consideration/information.

I could swear that Sayid also said something at one point about nobody noticing the plane turn around, but I'm darned if I can find it in any of the available transcripts, and I don't remember the episode.

And Kate's response was kind of odd too, people do survive plane crashes but not generally the kind where the plane breaks up and drops out of the sky.


Okay. I'm a tad bored here so I went through all the available transcripts. (the unavailable ones: Outlaws and ...in Translation) and the only conversations I found about surviving the plane crash are below:

Pilot part 1

(Jack and Kate sit in front of the fire. He's holding a leaf stem cut and torn
into the shape of an airplane. He holds it out as he thinks out loud.)

JACK: We must have been at about forty thousand feet when it happened. Hit an
air pocket and dropped maybe ... two hundred feet. The turbulence was ...

(He pauses and shakes his head.)

JAKE: I blacked out.

KATE: I didn't.

(He turns to look at her.)

KATE: I saw the whole thing. I knew that the tail was gone, but I ... couldn't
bring myself to look back. And then the -- the front end of the plane broke
off.

(Jack nods.)

JACK: Well, it's not here on the beach. Neither is the tail. We need to
figure out which way we came in.

KATE: Why?

JACK: 'Cause there's a chance we could find the cockpit. If it's intact, we
might be able to find the transceiver, and we could send out a signal and help
the rescue party find us.

The Moth
(Kate and Sayid walk through the plants.)

KATE: What we're doing -- chasing some phantom distress signal -- what are the
odds of this working?

SAYID: No worse than the odds of our surviving that plane crash.

KATE: People survive plane crashes all the time.

SAYID: Not like this one. The tail section broke off when we were still in the
air. Our section cartwheeled through the jungle, and yet we escaped with
nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?

KATE: (shakes her head) Blind dumb luck.

SAYID: No one's that lucky. We shouldn't have survived.

KATE: Sorry, Sayid, but some things just happen -- no rhyme, no reason.

(They continue walking.)

Thanks nonya, I appreciate it! :)

As for Vincent don't forget he is Walt's dog. Haven't the writers established some type of ability whatever it may be. It is possible that it was used to release the dog from whatever captivity it may have been in.

*Yawn* OK. It's daylight here in Australia again. We're 15 hours ahead of you!

Anyway, when I was referring to something being in the cargo hold, I wasn't actually referring to any of the main characters, as I don't feel that would be plausible in this instance. At any rate - it is unlikely due to the violent nature of the plane disintegrating in mid-air that anyone would have survived it... except the dog. Still don't understand that one... Unless! Walt is actually blind and that was his guide dog and was in the cabin with him (and why not? If Locke can regain the use of his legs, why not Walt his eyesight? It would also explain his "heightened senses"). But - I digress... That kid's definitely a mystery.

Thanks to nonya for the transcripts on what we do know so far about what happened on the plane - which isn't much and is deliberate I would assume. I actually re-watched "In Translation" again last night and I can recall vividly the conversation that Kate had with Sayid when walking through the scrub (oops - Aussie again... "plants"). That absolutely reeks of deliberate dialogue due to the fact that the conversation was cut short before we found out anything useable, and is probably something we should keep in mind. I, too, recall something about Sayid indicating the plane turned around, but don't remember which ep. it was in. How can you "plan" for certain people to survive a plane crash, though? Seems highly unlikely and, if you go by my "keep it simple" theory, it's probably not the case here.

I also agree with moanablue in that it is unlikely the writers would have gone down the "Iraqi blew up the plane" path, and would be disappointed if it were the case. Which brings me to Sawyer (or whatever his name is) ... OK. If he killed a guy, he shouldn't have been given passage out of the country without an escort, now should he? If Kate had one, then why not Sawyer? And, why was the Marshalls case with the guns in it under someone elses' seat? Actually , according to law, they should have been in the cargo hold of the plane anyway. I believe that Air Marshalls are allowed to pack only 1 gun in the cabin of the plane...

* Which brings me to Sawyer (or whatever his name is) ... OK.* If he killed a guy, he shouldn't have been given passage out of the country without an escort, now should he?* If Kate had one, then why not Sawyer?*


Perhaps Sawyer wasn't caught?

This is true - perhaps he wasn't caught... But maybe Kate wasn't caught either? How do we KNOW the marshall was actually a marshall? (Do we know that other than the fact that Sawyer has his supposed badge). Kate's a pretty shifty type of character - it may just have been a ploy for her and her "friend" to get out of the country... After all, she knew where the key was and she knew where the briefcase with the guns was stowed.

OK. I'll stop. It's all a bit off the planet. I digress, yet again. Let's just agree that he wasn't caught ;-)

I've often wondered how Vincent survived and got out of his carrier. I own one and opening it and closing it are not the easiest thing to do. :pinch:

Here's another question I have were our survivors buckled in?? I remember Charlie buckling in but what about the rest?? If they were buckled in how did they fall out of their seats? and how did they become so scattered? Wasn't Jack quite a distance from Rose? If they were sitting together wouldn't they have landed close to one another? How did their plane break up but land largely uncrushed in the sand? Wouldn't impact and velocity crushed it like a soda can?

Maybe someone could help me with this cause it's bugging me. :dizzy:

This is true - perhaps he wasn't caught... But maybe Kate wasn't caught either?* How do we KNOW the marshall was actually a marshall?* (Do we know that other than the fact that Sawyer has his supposed badge).* Kate's a pretty shifty type of character - it may just have been a ploy for her and her "friend" to get out of the country... After all, she knew where the key was and she knew where the briefcase with the guns was stowed.

OK.* I'll stop.* It's all a bit off the planet.* I digress, yet again.* Let's just agree that he wasn't caught ;-)


We did see Sawyer in the police station during Boone's flashback. Most speculation says that's related to Jack's dad but who knows?

Oh, great point about the seatbelts. *Those who weren't wearing them went flying towards the ceiling. *I remember Jack buckling himself in, I'm not sure if it was before or after the announcement to fasten them.

Does anybody know what the drill would be if they suspected someone of using drugs on the plane? *Would the flight attendants really chase them down like that? *I've been wondering if they thought something entirely different was wrong at that point, and they latched onto Charlie because he looked so twitchy. *

Hmm - it would appear to me that those who were not buckled in would have been sucked out the rear of the plane when it "dropped off" unless they were confined to, say, the toilet. So, technically, those who survived SHOULD HAVE been wearing their belts for most of the ride down. Maybe this is one of the reasons why they showed Jack buckling himself in?

I am not sure what the current drills are with regard to suspicious persons on-board. Things have changed a lot since 9/11, however they are most likely to have considered Charile a "threat" because of his irrational behaviour and the fact he locked himself in the cubicle and wouldn't come out. I am not sure they suspected him of drugs in particular, but his behaviour warranted further investigation so it's not really out of the ordinary.

I wondered that too. Why approach him with such force if all you thought was he was snorting drugs.
Heck over ocean with no real airport around I'd say let TWITCHY get high better that then him beginning to detox midflight and cause a commotion midair right???

If they thought TWITCHY was say ---a shoe bomber then I could see approach with all due force necessary. Its just me though.

The seatbelts and the way they landed and Vincent romping free drove me NUTS at first thats why I kept saying they had to be drugged by an anesthesia gas.

The reason I mentioned the seat belts is who unbuckled our lost so they were lying on the beach?

In response to the original question about the simplest explanation for the events... I'm still new to the show, so I could be totally off base... anyway... The first thought I had for an explanation was that the whole story is Walt's imagination on a long, boring plane ride from Sidney to LA with a father he doesn't know and resents. *The polar bears, monster, father issues, over-the-top backstories, and general un-realness of the crash/island ties into that idea. *Lately, I've started thinking that it could be Locke's imagination, since there's a "Mary Sue" aspect to his character (who could be a writer). *

Either way, I could see the Keyser Soze aspect of seeing the other people on the plane imagining their occupations, skills, back stories, and what they they would do following this imagined plane crash. *I could see the series ending with everyone getting off the plane and you get bits of dialog or glimpses of who the real people are, and realize that "Jack" isn't a doctor, he's David, a salesman. *"Sayid" isn't an Iraqi ex-RG, he's a British Indian software engineer, etc. * :o

Of course, the more I've gotten into the show, the more ticked off I'd be if this were the explanation. *Dang it! I care for these characters, I want to be able to think of them as "real" (well, you know, in a fictitious character kind of way.) *;)

Hi Green-Eyed-Colleen,

I guess it's not implausible that people can become dislodged from their seat belts during a crash. *They can break or be damaged by flying debtris and give way. *I guess we don't really know whether half of the main characters actually unbuckled themselves and then wondered out of the wreckage onto the beach ... the only thing that worries me is Locke who was definitely lying in the sand when we first saw him, and Jack who was lying unconscious in the bushes. *That's definitely odd.

Then, of course, there's the dog. *Again! *Obviously the dog has the answer to everything - now all we need to do is get it to speak human and we'll be fine *::)

Yes KC Jenna, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I have thought of almost exactly the same Keyser Soze scenario as an explanation myself, and subsequently hoped it wouldn't be true!

There is an article/interview featuring the writers that can be found at http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=398. This basically tells us that what is happening, IS happening. That kinda took me off the daydream phase when I read it.

Interested in hearing more about your simplistic approach, though.

... the only thing that worries me is Locke who was definitely lying in the sand when we first saw him, and Jack who was lying unconscious in the bushes. *That's definitely odd.



I can't remember which episode, but Sayid said the plane "tumbled" through the jungle. This could account for Jack being in the jungle and other's being on the beach.

But if the plane tumbled through the jungle wouldn't there have been a trail through the trees ??
I don't know I am just throwing this out as a question.
I've seenpictures where crashes tear up the earth so why wouldn't it tear through trees and sand?
That was part of the crash had to be fake and an experiment theory.

Or ... maybe there are just some things that "are" and that we aren't meant to question because they simply aren't relevant? Going back to "keep it simple" - which is what "the simle truth" is about, then perhaps we shouldn't be too concerned with regards the logistics of whether people fell out of their seats or why the plane didn't leave a trail of destruction through the trees?

Bearing that in mind, i am going to try and concentrate on the following ...
1. A group of individuals board a plane in Australia.
2. Something happens in the air
3. The plane crashes
4. There are survivors (numbers thereof either relevant or not)
5. Their location holds strange mysteries
6. Where are they...who are they... what are the secrets of their location... and (how long) will they survive?

Very basic I know - but they seem to be the main objects at hand.

Would people notice a plane descending do you think? *Maybe it wasn't all that high in the air. *If the pilot descended very very gradually ... yes, *I'm grasping at straws now. * :laugh:

however they are most likely to have considered Charile a "threat" because of his irrational behaviour and the fact he locked himself in the cubicle and wouldn't come out. *I am not sure they suspected him of drugs in particular, but his behaviour warranted further investigation so it's not really out of the ordinary.

I see your point, but it did look like they were already nervous about him before he made his dash to the bathroom. *Of course, we don't know what he did before that, so it might not have been just the fingernail-rapping and the nervousness. *Maybe he was trying to get at the drugs in his shoe and they thought "shoe bomb" or something. *

---

Saw your post when I previewed, Suzzy -- yes, I do tend to wander off into logistics land.** :laugh:

I think that flight attendants (air hostesses) are trained to be attuned to passengers exhibiting signs of nervousness - even if it is only to console the very nervous flyer.* Charlie really was making a bit of a spectacle of himself ... sweat on his brow, slight dilution of his pupils, eyes darting around, tapping his rings on the arm of the seat, aggravated speech.* I reckon that kind of behaviour would bring lots of unwanted attention.

Probability that they knew he was trouble beforehand? .. possibly.* They may have known that he was the bass player from Driveshaft according to the manifest, or even may have been tipped off by the fact he has his nails painted and wears lots of jewellery on his hands.* Who knows?!* I remember when I worked for Qantas we used to put all sorts of information about passengers on the list that only the flight crew are supposed to see.

Would people notice a plane descending?* Well - probably not if it is way off the coast and out in the middle of the ocean somewhere.* If someone had heard/seen anything, then wouldn't there be MORE of a search party out there looking for them?* Being 1000 miles off course really isn't THAT far.* One would think they would scout EVERY island in the area for signs of debris?* Definite mysetery.* This supposed "island" that they are on seems to be off the radar (this may be very important).

I remember when I worked for Qantas we used to put all sorts of information about passengers on the list that only the flight crew are supposed to see.

How interesting!* Too bad nothing like that has turned up on the island.*

If the passengers might not notice the plane descending, maybe the crash was more of a bad landing?* (One that busted off a tail and a cockpit and killed a bunch of them.... yeah nevermind.)

You're right, a thousand miles isn't that much really -- and if they didn't find anything along the flight path, surely they'd have the sense to widen the scope on the assumption that the pilot had instrument problems.* They'd figure the pilot had problems, wouldn't they?* Otherwise the plane wouldn't be lost.*

Of course, there's always the longshot option that nobody's looking because nobody knows they're missing.*

About those seatbelts, though... were all the dead people still belted in?* There were people strapped in in the cockpit, I think?* And in the fuselage... all the b-o-d-y-s as Michael said.* The people underwater in WTCMB.* Weren't any of them strewn on the beach?* I don't remember seeing any.* I should probably just watch them all from the begining during this hiatus, not that I haven't seen each episode at least twice already and the pilot about five times.* *:laugh:

Hi everyone…thought I’d throw my 5 cents worth in ;)
The fact the occupants were sent flying (no pun) to the ceiling would indicate that yes, a rather serious incident occurred to the aircraft. Violent enough to maybe cause a structural failure to the tail section due to metal fatigue or some such weakness? We have all seen reports of engines falling off aircraft due to that exact sort of thing … ;-)
However…..and here I admit I was ready to refute Suzzy and the whole cargo bay scenario…that was UNTILL I went back and rechecked some of the episodes. In Ep2 there is a distinct “muffled” noise just prior to the initial “jolt”….could it have been an explosion in the cargo area, causing the initial “concern” for the passengers, then as Kato said there is a period of “calm”…but re-check the flash backs scenes…out the window there is a clear indication that the aircraft was (at that time) in a shallow dive and continually correcting a left/right bank…obviously the pilot (or maybe just the co-pilot!!??) was struggling for control. Then there is the final catastrophic structural failure and the tail section tears off!
R/e the “military” feel…yes to a large extent there is, Locke & his lunch time “war games”, Sayid & Kate’s father….all in the military . But as for Locke do you remember that “secret” phone call?
Mystery Man: Is this line secure....?
Locke: *puts hand over mouth piece & looks around*
Line secure GL12 go ahead....
Umm....putting your hand over a mouth piece & looking
around constitutes "a secure line"....!!!!??? Some secret agent THAT would be!? :laugh:
Then Locke refers to his lunch time opponent as GL12...same as in the phonecall...
Where did Locke work? What did he “supervisor” ask him for after he took “that” call…those "figures"…..what does GL stand for in a Finance section...General Ledger!! Add the the first two of “those” numbers together…what do you get? Yup 12!

Sorry a long post & so much more to say!
But I’ll spare you my ramblings…for now ;-)

Rayder
:)

Just to clear up a couple details. *Sayid was being questioned by airport security per Sawyer, so there is no way he was anywhere near the cargo hold. *We see Sawyer at the Police Station well Boone is talking to the sergeant. *He says something about "I was only giving him back his bottle. *Don't you want to hear my side of it." *So I think it is safe to assume that he was not there for the murder but for a bar fight. *1,000 miles off course may not seem like a lot but it could be. *Some one did some research and found that this type of plane would cruise at about 450 miles per hour that would place them over 2 hours away from where they were last in contact with air traffic control. *It would also depend on what route they took back to Fiji. *It is not too far off to suspect that the authorities would be looking for debris in the ocean and assume the plane sunk. *As for Vincent I think Locke sudden ability to walk after not being able to for 4 years and showing no sign of it a bigger mystery, not saying Vincent isn't a mystery as well. *I have to admit I have done a lot of theorizing and gotten very technical, researching many different subjects that I won't go into here.
If *you look for simple answers, well the plane hit turbulence it was an older plane and the turbulence caused fractures in the metal so the tail broke off(it would be reminiscent of the Aloha airlines plane where the top half of the plane ripped off during the flight but they were able to land safely). *How did these people survive, Miracles happen people survive accidents that we look at and say no way possible but it does happen. *Jack and Vincent were thrown clear once the plane hit the ground. *Locke is able to Walk because something in his body was jarred and fixed whatever the problem was. *He was in physical therapy so his muscle hadn't atrophied. *Jack had a stress related hallucination and his father's body was thrown from the coffin and is still somewhere on the island. *The fact that their paths had crossed in someway is purely coincidental. *These are the simple explanations not my theory of what is happening. I know I didn't cover everything that is going on but just giving the types of ways that things can be explained in a simple manner.

But if the plane tumbled through the jungle wouldn't there have been a trail through the trees ??
I don't know I am just throwing this out as a question.
I've seenpictures where crashes tear up the earth so why wouldn't it tear through trees and sand?
That was part of the crash had to be fake and an experiment theory.


If you look in episode one there is a gigantic scar in the trees leading down to the beach, I dont have a screen cap but i definately noticed it when I watched that episode. It was a like a darker tear shaped patch on the hill, could have been the shadow of a cloud but i think now.

I've often wondered how Vincent survived and got out of his carrier.


Maybe he didn't? Could Walt have wished that his dog survived?

Thanks for this topic on straighforward real world theories. I have been wandering throught the paranormal and psuedo science threads and while they are all very interesting they do give me a bit of a head-ache.* :laugh:* They are also unending and they can fracture into so many mini-theories. We need a place like this.

A jetliner crashed on the mountain near where I live when I was in high school. The plane sheared off the trees in a long path so the effect looked like a giant chain saw had been taken to the area.* A half-clear cut if you will. Now this particular plane had been flying straight and hit a huge boulder on the side of the mountain and exploded. If it had 'broken apart' and carwheeled through the forest it would seem that it still would have taken some trees out...just not in a straght line.* This was a typical forest of the south..maple and oak and pine trees.* I have no ideas concerning the hardiness of trees on a tropical island and the effect of flying plane debris on them.

What part was supposed to have carwheeled, the main body?* *And we only have Sayid's word for it that it cartwheeled, did he assume this or did he see it?* It seems unlikely to me that anyone inside the plane would know what it was doing -- they'd just see a lot of chaotic brush and trees going by.*

(Any NTSB members in here?)* *:laugh:

Just for clarification, my own idea of* "simple" is a logical and ordinary explanation for some that that seems paranormal or magic.* Not that I don't enjoy tinkering with the paranormal theories.*

That made me think of a story of a crash survivor. I believe it was the Iowa City crash. The guy had survived and had been taken to a locale hospital. He was sitting in bed watching the news and it showed the crash he was in. He didn't recognize it. He thought it was ANOTHER event and he asked around about it. They were a bit shocked that he didn't recognize it...but if you are on the inside looking out and perhaps just concerned about your own survival and keeping your oxygen mask on...would you notice the scenery speeding by?

Hi there elfdream and kato,

Hmm... you know you're right. How could our friend(?!) Sayid KNOW that the plane cartwheeled through the forest? Explanation ... he is a purveyor of information from the writers who want us to know that "the plane cartwheeled through the forest" and they have used Sayid's character as a vehicle to tell us that. Probably nothing more. I guess it is believable to us because there has been wreckage found in different locations.

And elfdream ... I agree with you. We need a "safe haven" away from all the paranormal and pseudo science threads. I just want to focus on the facts at hand! :)

Kato - I don't mind dabbling in a bit of paranormal either. I think that "paranormal" is actually accepted as a possible phenomenon nowadays don't you? It's not entirely "outside the realm of believability"... (and gives you and me an excuse to keep dabbling there).

Suzzy, yes I do think paranormal is just as possible as ordinary, if not more possible -- in fact, it would j(paradoxically) be more of an amazing feat for them to pull off an 'ordinary" explanation for these extraordinary events than it would be to offer up a paranormal/pseudoscience one.* But I don't mind dabbling in the paranormal ones at all.* :)

Do the writers want us to know the plane cartwheeled through the forest, or want us to think it did?* *:-\

Even if you (y'all you, not you personally) think it was just an ordinary crash caused by hitting some bad turbulence, it's still mind-boggling that so many people survived.* There has got to be a reason beyond blind luck.

Yes - I agree with you Kato. There are some things that just don't cut the "just blind dumb luck" explanation. Walt's conjuring of the bird (and possibly the polar bears - weren't there polar bears in that Spanish comic book he was reading?) is the first "permission" we are given to assume that there may well be paranormal events occurring in the storyline.

I think that there have been other plane disasters that are equally bad that have had unbelievable amounts of survivors? I remember "Rayder" telling me something about a united Airlines crash in Sioux City that had some unreal amount of survivors for the seriousness of the crash...

Hmmm... I think the writers have a LOT OF EXPLAINING to do! And, I do reckon (pardon my Aus ... "think") that we are supposed to be assuming the plane cartwheeled through the forest. Why would they want us to "think" that it did? ...

But in the Sioux City crash, wasn't the damage from hitting something after the emergency landing, not dropping out of the sky full force?* And they had emergency ground crew ready to help, the passengers were all cooperating, and so on.* I mean it still was incredibly lucky, but there was at least some kind of an explanation for that luck.* It wasn't just a big jet falling out of the sky in pieces and cartwheeling across the jungle.*

Gee I hope you don't think I asked if you were Australian because your phrasing was weird or anything, honestly it was just the "good on you," and the "with regards to," and the latter isn't even Oz-centric -- I just happened to notice that people used it more often there than they used "regarding."* *And "I reckon" is a phrase here too, so nobody would peg you as an Aussie with that one.* More likely they'd think you were a Southerner.* *:laugh:* And I figured that if you were Australian you'd be a good go-to person for information about it when questions cropped up.* But, back to the topic...

...yes, they do seem to be heavily implying that there is something abnormal going on, and at the same time they have characters scoff at the idea on a regular basis, like Kate and her luck speech.* And all the people who thought Hurley was nuts for thinking the numbers were jinxed.*

But for all we know birds hit that window all the time, the comic book was placed on the island by someone who wanted to spook them all, Hurley's family has always had bad luck, and so on.* I'm not saying I believe that, just saying that we're seeing things without any context -- just like the crash, which might potentially make sense if we saw the entire thing but we didn't.

But having said that.... yeah, at this point it's more likely that Walt is a little freak of nature, and Hurley was jinxed.* *:laugh:*

Hey Kato - no offense taken with the "Aussie" thing.* :-)* Just making fun of it after you mentioned it.* Australian and proud of it.* Feel free to hit me with any Australian-related questions and I'll certainly give it my best shot.

Yes - it does seem as if they are trying to throw us off the track a little by having the characters scoff at the whole paranormal idea.* I'm not buying their whole "poker face" trick* There's DEFINITELY something para going on there.*

Of course - birds hit windows all the time when I see their pictures, and some wierdo left a comic book with polar bears in it just lying around hoping to get their jollies when some unsuspecting naive castaway just happened to stumble across it and freak himself out (and of course they are in the bushes sniggering over it now as we speak) ....* :lol2:* Yes I know, we're speaking "out of context", but here I am just trying to keep it simple!* *:angel:

OK.* You have any more ideas on your theory that the plane didn't actually crash and/or why we have so many survivors?* Really - I'm interested...

The thing that immediately came to mind for me after that first scene in the first episode with Jack just laying there was a Tele-movie based on the fatal United Airlines flight 232. Quote: In July 1989, the tail engine of the DC-10 of United Airlines Flight 232, en-route from Denver to Minneapolis, sustained a "catastrophic uncontained failure" that created a hail of shrapnel, slicing the hydraulics lines of all three independent systems, leaving the aircraft "marginally controllable" at 37,000 feet .....
Sound a little familiar?
So for all those wondering about the whole Kate/Syid "how did we survive" conversation & the how did Vincent survive? Take a look at the video of THAT crash here... http://radioscanning.wox.org/Scanner/recently_added_or_modified_pages.htm do a search for "232" & it should be the second instance found. Now I'm just making a point that there 184 survivors to that horrific crash! Some times fact is stranger than fiction. Also survivors were discovered wandering out of nearby corn fields as they were thrown from the wreckage.

Yes, there are too many "paranormal" things going on for it not to be at least part of the answer? Walt & the bird, Walt & the Polar Bear, Walt and scoring a bulls eye with the knife ;) Then there is the freaky fortune teller & Claire....and those damn numbers!!!???? And of course Locke......dunno what it is but he has a big part to play in all this.....well I think so 8)
I too believe that things "paranormal" are much more readilly accepted by people than it once may have been.

I am refreshed by Suzzy's approach to this mystery, people are concentrating too much on solving every tiny little puzzle.....the answer(s) we are looking for are the "big picture" ones and I'd be happy with a nice "logical" answer just so long as it's a *damn!* why didn't we think of that!!! kind of solution ::)

Fact is very often stranger than fiction, because you can't get away with too much coincidence or luck in fiction.* And you very particularly can't get away with too much luck or coincidence in mysteries.* I believe the flight you're talking about is the one that crash-landed in Sioux City, so once again -- in that case, although it was truly incredible that so many people survived, they did have emergency crews waiting to treat the injured, the airport cleared for them, and I'll quote the rest from an account of it:*

They were descending at over 1,600 feet per minute at around 215 knots. In an incredible feat of airmanship, they managed to touch down near the beginning of the runway just off the centerline. Unfortunately, the starboard wingtip touched down just prior to the landing gear, pulling the aircraft sideways. The excess airspeed and high sink rate caused the aircraft to break up on impact, igniting into a huge fireball. Amazingly, depsite the explosion and high speed break-up, 185 people survived the accident, including all four cockpit crew members.

In other words, it didn't drop straight out of the sky minus a cockpit and tail and then cartwheel across the jungle.*

Do I have an idea of what happened if it wasn't a crash -- no.* Not with the element of the tail falling off.* If it weren't for that, there would be a whole lot more theory options.*

Yes well that may be true Kato.

Just trying to offer a possible explanation as to how/why they DID survive......

Given the known facts in Lost..... they shouldn't have. But there you go.

Yep - keeping in with the "simple" theory (and all the advertising that led up to the on-air premiere claiming it was a "plane crash") all indications point toward it being just that.

I am still leaning toward the theory that there was something under the plane / in the cargo hold that caused the entire incident.

Kato - did the cockpit fall off in mid-air or did it dislodge during the (alleged) "cartwheeling through the bushes" incident? From my memory there was a muffled sound, then a huge jolt, then a massive dive downwards, then the tail section dislodged ... but that's all we've been presented with so far?

I guess if the plane cartwheeled from the middle of the island outwards (the cockpit was further inland when it was found) then that would explain people like Jack "falling out of the plane" as it tumbled along and then finally rested in bits and pieces on the beach.

One interesting thing is that the creators did say something along the lines of there not being just one wholistic answer or cause encompassing all the various mysteries. I like the idea of there being several seperate mysteries with their own plausible solutions. If that makes sense. So that the cause of the crash might be unrelated to what's behind the hatch. The black rock and transmission stuff could be unrelated to Ethan and his plans for Claire's baby. The whispers could have nothing to do with who knocked Sayid out and why...etc.

I dont think the simple truth cuts the mustard in this case...*

If you have a look at any photos of a bad aircrash, you will see that it would be impossible for the cabin to maintain its shape, or for the occupants to walk away. Furthermore, if the plane was on its way from Sydney to LA, it would have been heavy with fuel. The fuel would have exploded and* ... it would have been a very short show (forget the mini-series, it would have been a NANO-series!).

And while we are talking about the cabin ... what happened to the liferafts that all such aircraft HAVE to carry? each one has an EPIRB on board (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon) that would have told the search teams where the aircraft went down.

So,* there is no *simple truth* about the crash. Whatever happened to the aircraft, not only cut it into pieces, but made sure that at least one part came down softly enough for people to walk away with mere scratches.

WooHoo! my first post is now officially over* *:D

Alexims

Welcome! Good first post.

I'm glad I brought up the Sioux City crash. I didn't realize it would come in so handy as a point of reference. I just remember the guy in the hospital not recognizing his 'own' crash and even he thought no one could have survived THAT.

We could be talking about a faulty airplane to begin with. Someone was asleep on the job during the construction of and after years of stress it picked that moment in time to break apart. I mean look at the Concorde. Eventually they start to fall apart even after years of the best maintenance.

I have posted this query in some other forums, but have never really gotten a straight answer. This doesn't really have that much to do with the plane breaking apart, but still involves the plane to an extent. Someone (forgive me I don't recall who) had stated that airline staff had a list of passengers and they would write things on it only meant for other airline staff to see.....now would that include marking if someone was handicapped, in such a way that s/he needed assistance for things, such as going to the bathroom? I ask this because, while I have been known to hold it quite awhile, I can't believe that Locke could have lasted the entire 16 hours without a bathroom break. And if he did need one, he would need some help getting there, who would that have come from? Now, I know we are supposed to take some certain things for granted (facial hair will not change, no one will become emaciated) but the positioning of Locke on the plane still gets me....

1. Why didn't he have compression socks on? The airlines go out of their way to tell people to make sure to get the blood moving in the legs during the plane flight, how could Locke do this?

2. In general, individuals with wheelchairs get to go on the plane first, now everytime I have flown the instant the boarding call is announced, the swarms of people line up around the gate, hoping (for gosh knows what reason) to somehow beat everyone else on the plane. I can't believe that no one could have seen Locke.

I am not sure if this is one of those things that we are just supposed to forget about, or if it has some significance. Like most things with this show, I am just lost....: :laugh:

Welcome to the board, Aleximus!* All good points, in fact it was the plane bursting into flames that was the worst part of that United crash mentioned above.* And very good point about the liferafts.*

Kato - did the cockpit fall off in mid-air or did it dislodge during the (alleged) "cartwheeling through the bushes" incident?

I'm going by this:

KATE:* I saw the whole thing.* I knew that the tail was gone, but I ... couldn't bring myself to look back.* And then the -- the front end of the plane broke off.

Moanablue, that bathroom point has always bugged me too.* I never thought of the pressure socks.* I learned at some point that the airlines use their own wheelchairs on board, special narrow ones that can get down the aisle.*

I guess if the plane cartwheeled from the middle of the island outwards (the cockpit was further inland when it was found) then that would explain people like Jack "falling out of the plane" as it tumbled along and then finally rested in bits and pieces on the beach.

And except for the pilot, it seems like those who were thrown from the plane survived and those who weren't, didn't.* But since we haven't had any conversations about anyone scrambling out of the plane, that's just a speculation on a speculation.

One interesting thing is that the creators did say something along the lines of there not being just one wholistic answer or cause encompassing all the various mysteries.

Well, that's both cool and very fiendish.* I like that we'll have more than one big reveal, but now we don't know which things are part of what mystery -- does something not fit because* the theory is wrong, or does it not fit because it's part of some other mystery?* *Diabolical!* *:laugh:

Someone please check this but I seem to remember Sawyer walking out of the plane after the crash.. ??? ??? It may not have been Sawyer but I remember the screaming and running around and some guy just walking out of the fuselage... ???

Or maybe he just went in to look around and was walking back out...

I'm going to watch the pilot again soon, with a list of questions at hand.* The seatbelt issue intrigues me, it's probably nothing but what the heck, it's not like we're getting a new episode to obsess over anytime soon.*

Hey there Kato, elfdream, Moanablue, Aleximus (welcome!) and Zoriah.

I can confirm a couple of "real-life" things here with regard to airport procedures (been there, done that...).* Yes - the wheelchair passengers go on first - their wheelchairs are stowed away in the cargo hold just before departure (so they can be taken off easily), and they are wheeled on-board using the airline's own wheelchairs that are specially made to fit.* They don't keep those wheelchairs on board - they are simply used to transport the passenger to their seat, and then at the other end there is a porter waiting with another wheelchair and they get off last.* Generally the wheelchair passengers board prior to the first boarding call for remaining passengers so you probably wouldn't even notice it.* They are assigned a porter to take care of their needs from arrival at the airport until boarding.

It was me that indicated that there is a special passenger manifest.* It DOES contain details such as special meals required, who needs to transfer to what flight at the other end, whether they are a VIP, whether they have "special needs", whether they are an unaccompanied minor etc. etc.* Don't know if the writers would have taken this into consideration, though?* It's relevance is probably mute.

They were only a few hours into the flight, I think, when the plane supposedly went down - so it's not improbable that Locke just didn't need to go before that.* Wheelchair passengers are always located at strategic points on the plane and always near a restroom facility.* It is up to the disabled person as to what assistance they require for toileting purposes (it is usually assumed they will require the assistance of a male purser).* There are no hard-and-fast rules for wearing the pressure socks - it's "strongly recommended", but not regulated.

Thanks Kato - yes I forgot about Kate saying the front of the plane "fell off".* Interesting that when the plane was "placed", "hurtled" or "dumped" on the beach that one of the wing engines was still running?* Odd but not improbable - fuel is stored in the aircraft wing but still - if it was placed there, that would be an interesting thing to explain.* As Aleximus said, the aircraft would have been heavily laden with fuel for the long journey so it probably SHOULD have exploded at some time or another...

Which makes me still think ...

We may be over-analysing the crash just a little.* I would LOVE to be proved wrong (and probably will be!) but sometimes writers don't put in a lot of detail about stuff that just isn't that important, and I am sure they are having a chuckle at us when reading our posts where we are trying to figure it all out* :)

At any rate, I think we're facing a whole gambit of interrelated causes weaving through various mysteries within this series.* We just need to figure out which ones are the real mysteries, and which ones are (simply) "the road travelled".

Kato - when you are viewing the pilot eps again (and the eps where Charlie has his little freak-out on the plane and Kate breaks free of her shackles to get to the oxy mask), have a look and see if you can recognise where Locke is sitting...

Thanks for all the info. about handicapped passengers. All, still very interesting to me. I believe Locke was sitting either directly, or two seats behind Rose and Jack. You can clearly see him in the scenes that they had together on the plane. Now I have another question, perhaps to someone who remembers the pilot very clearly or could watch it again. Now my meager brain recalls that while watching the scene where Kate puts the mask on the marshall, the whole back tail end of the plane is torn away (I think this is right). Yet, also, everyone in first class apparently died, per Boone and Shannon (Shannon reflects how they were lucky that they DIDN'T get bumped to first class) the front part of the plane was found later in the jungle by Charlie, Jack and Kate. So basically it seems as though the plane pulled apart in the front and the back and all the survivors (we think) were all sitting in the middle. Everyone who was saved, was confined to a certain part of the plane. Not sure that this has anything to do with anything, but it is interesting nonetheless. If someone could confirm this for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Hey ho Moanablue,

Yes - in the scene where Kate manages to wrestle with the oxy mask, the back of the plane is torn away.* The aircraft is still clearly in the sky at this time and no land appears visible from the rear of the aircraft.

She also "mentioned" later that she "saw the whole thing" and that, in fact, the front half of the plane also dropped off.

We have not yet seen if anyone managed to survive in the cockpit and first class cabins - although they DID find it in the forest and there were clearly dead people in there, we don't know exactly how many survivors there MAY have been and if they managed to alight from the wreckage and head off in another direction.* I guess we are to assume that our famed characters are indeed the only ones that did survive.

The tail section of an aircraft is by far the safest place to be if a plane is going to crash, and the further forward you are, technically the worse off you are.* Bad news for the passengers in this series who sat at the rear then promptly fell out of the sky, and the ones who sat in first class who followed shortly thereafter.* I guess the wing section of the plane is probably more structurally sound because of the reinforcing required to affix the wings.* *That would explain why there may have only been survivors in this part of the plane but I am not an aeronautics expert so can't confirm.

It is also possible that the pilot may have ditched the fuel if he knew they were heading into trouble - we'll probably find that out when we are privy to the long-awaited "what happened in the cockpit" episode.

Hope this answers your question?!

We may be over-analysing the crash just a little.* I would LOVE to be proved wrong (and probably will be!) but sometimes writers don't put in a lot of detail about stuff that just isn't that important

Maybe, but whatever the secret is, they're counting on it going unnoticed, so my philosophy is -- notice everything, even if it doesn't mean anything at the time, because later on it might click with something else.* Dogs who shouldn't have escaped from carriers, pilots who don't announce a turnaround, the tail sailing into blue sky when it should have been night -- probably writer error, but there's no way to be sure.

*sigh* you're right, Kato. It's difficult to tell whether it's research/continuity error or whether it's all relevant. :-\

From a technical point-of-view I guess there is "better lighting" in the set if the rear of the aircraft is torn away to show daylight, there may have been no time for the pilot to radio anything (I'm kinda leaning toward some kind of radar/transmission blackout type thing for that one - hence the broadcast from the island), and - well - the dog got lucky, but I think the dog has more to do with Walt than anything.

Lack of continuity can be a real let-down sometimes ...

there may have been no time for the pilot to radio anything (I'm kinda leaning toward some kind of radar/transmission blackout type thing for that one - hence the broadcast from the island),

I meant when he decided to turn around and head for Fiji -- he had at least a thousand miles of time during which he could have told the passengers, "we're going to have to turn around due to a blahblahblah no reason for alarm blahblahblah thank you for flying Oceanic."

The island couldn't have affected his radio comm unless the island was about six hours into -- and directly in line with -- the regular flight path for #815, since he wasn't anywhere near it when he lost radio.

But yeah, writer error probably accounts for more than it doesn't.* :/

Hey Kato,

I was researching some information about Japanese tunnels in WW2 (see other link in the Theories board) and I came across information about an island in the pacific called "Palmyra" that is, supposedly, cursed.

http://www.strangemag.com/palmyra.html

Very interesting, and so was the Oak Island mystery it mentioned.** *Thanks!

And errr.... you might want to remove the part about the spoiler picture, since I can pretty much guess what the spoiler must be. * *:laugh:*

** for anyone who wants to read that:* http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/OakIsland/

Thanks Kato.* Point taken.* :-)*

Have you managed to dissect the pilot eps yet with your list of questions?

I'm quite happy that this thread is here for those of us who prefer to think of things in more ... straightforward ways. Not everything on the show is a conspiracy. As Kate said (I believe): Sometimes things just happen - no rhyme, no reason. I think that's a central point to this entire show - sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to what happens, it just does. The circumstances surrounding those things may make it seem like something more, but sometimes it's just ... a coincidence.

I don't think there's anything nefarious going on with the plane crash. I think a lot of people try to make more of it simply because of the bizarre circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's more to it. Maybe the plane really did just crash, and maybe there just happened to be 48 survivors on the beach. Stranger things have happened.

I do think there's obviously something more afoot with the island itself (buried hatches, polar bears on tropical islands, radio towers on seemingly deserted islands, etc.), but I think the manner in which these lostaways got to the island is simply as it's been presented to us - a crash with survivors. It was just a way for the writers to get these characters to this island. Yes, there are continuity holes, but the writers needed a way to get all of those people onto the island, and have them be stranded with no one looking for them. A boat wouldn't have worked as well simply because you wouldn't get all those characters on a boat that would be in a situation to crash on an island so far out in the middle of nowhere. A plane was simply the most logical method of getting them there.

It may turn out that there is something more to it than that, but I don't see the reason for it, yet. IMO, they just crashed and happened to survive. Now they find themselves on a very strange island, with lots of mysteries, and this show is about what they do about it.

I don't think there's anything nefarious going on with the plane crash. I think a lot of people try to make more of it simply because of the bizarre circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's more to it.

I think people are making more of it because there are so many bizarre aspects to the crash itself, not just the island, and we have no way of knowing whether the things that don't make sense are writer error, or put there for a reason.* So some of us wonder if there's a reason, and some of us dismiss it as writer error, but nobody knows at this point.*

Suzzy -- no, I haven't done that yet.* Maybe over the weekend.

I don't think there's anything nefarious going on with the plane crash. I think a lot of people try to make more of it simply because of the bizarre circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's more to it. Maybe the plane really did just crash, and maybe there just happened to be 48 survivors on the beach. Stranger things have happened.


I'll give you that, in the real world, strangers things have happened. But we're dealing with the creation of a fictional narrative. It's typically considered hack writing for events to happen out of the ordinary just to happen.


Look at it from a simple example. Suppose I eat cereal with a fork. That's an odd habit. But if I were to create a character who eats a bowl of cereal in a story. I wouldn't have that character using a fork even if that's what I'd do, because it's an oddity that draws the audiences attention to a detail that's not suppose to be significant.

Likewise, I don't think the writers would spin the story out of the bizarrely unusual consequences of a plane crash if there wasn't some significanse to the oddity of it.

Look at it from a simple example. Suppose I eat cereal with a fork. That's an odd habit. But if I were to create a character who eats a bowl of cereal in a story. I wouldn't have that character using a fork even if that's what I'd do, because it's an oddity that draws the audiences attention to a detail that's not suppose to be significant. You would if the show were specifically about how this person deals with the daily ridicule of his eating cereal with a fork.

This show, IMO, isn't about why the plane crashed - it's about what's on that island. I happily concede, however, that there could certainly be more to it than that. Maybe there was something fishy going on with the crash. But, as has been said, there's no way to know at this point. Yes, it could all tie neatly together in the end (Some force brought these people to this island, specifically sparing their lives, and then deliberately toyed with them, dangled clues in front of them, etc., etc.), but I'm skeptical of that.

In my mind, the crash itself is a moot point. It's a given. Questioning the very premise of the show would be like questioning whether or not Sidney (From Alias) really is a secret agent (or whatever the hell she is), and postulating that maybe she's actually only been brainwashed to think she is. I just don't think the details of how the crash happened will turn out to be relevant.

But I could be wrong, definitely.

But look at it this way: Which is more "simple" - that a plane innocently crashed on a mysterious island and that some passengers survived, or that a plane full of people were all somehow drugged/knocked out, half of which were discarded/killed/released/whatever, and half of which were transported off the plane onto the beach of a deserted island, along with a burning fuselage of a plane, and all infused with new memories of the exact same plane crash which brought them there?

Or, which is more "simple" - that a plane innocently crashed on a mysterious island and that some passengers survived, or that the plane was deliberately rigged with a device specifically designed to rip the tail section off, and that somehow the people who were behind this knew precisely when to do this so that the plane would tumble onto the island and not kill everyone on board?

There are too many variables for it to have been 'planned'. Too many things could have gone wrong. There's no way to control a plane that has been ripped in half. There's no way to assure the survival of passengers.

Even if the destruction of the plane occurred because of some deliberate plan, their survival could certainly not have been counted on, thus everything that is happening to them on the island couldn't possibly be connected to anything that caused the crash.

Even if the destruction of the plane occurred because of some deliberate plan, their survival could certainly not have been counted on, thus everything that is happening to them on the island couldn't possibly be connected to anything that caused the crash.

You're probably right, but that's the part that intrigues me -- could their survival have been ensured?* Is there some simple explanation we're missing?* I just enjoy playing around with that idea.*

This show, IMO, isn't about why the plane crashed - it's about what's on that island. I happily concede, however, that there could certainly be more to it than that. Maybe there was something fishy going on with the crash. But, as has been said, there's no way to know at this point. Yes, it could all tie neatly together in the end (Some force brought these people to this island, specifically sparing their lives, and then deliberately toyed with them, dangled clues in front of them, etc., etc.), but I'm skeptical of that.



The survivors themselves question their survival of the plane crash. I don't think the writers would draw attention to the unlikeliness of so many people surviving that magnitude of disaster unless there's more to it. A plane mysteriously crashes, and a select number of people who seem to be connected by their pasts mysteriously survive and find themselves on a mysterious island. You have to think it's not just all coincidence.

True, Bartleby!

The survivors themselves question their survival of the plane crash. I don't think the writers would draw attention to the unlikeliness of so many people surviving that magnitude of disaster unless there's more to it. A plane mysteriously crashes, and a select number of people who seem to be connected by their pasts mysteriously survive and find themselves on a mysterious island. You have to think it's not just all coincidence. Don't you think it would be weirder if the survivors didn't question how they survived? It was obligatory dialogue. If you survive a plane crash like that, of course you'd question it.

And I'm not ready yet to assume that they're all 'connected'. OK, Sawyer and Jack's dad were in a bar together. Hurley was on Korean TV. I just don't see the super-strong connections there. Yes, some of them had been in the same place at the same time prior to the crash... that's not really 'connected'. The biggest 'connection' I see is Hurley and Locke, but Hurley didn't even know he owned that company (I don't think, I'll have to re-watch).

I thought this thread was about 'simple' truth? You know, Occam's Razor stuff. I think it's more likely that it was just a crash. The island itself isn't "simple", but the crash certainly can be.

And I'm not ready yet to assume that they're all 'connected'. OK, Sawyer and Jack's dad were in a bar together. Hurley was on Korean TV. I just don't see the super-strong connections there. Yes, some of them had been in the same place at the same time prior to the crash... that's not really 'connected'. The biggest 'connection' I see is Hurley and Locke, but Hurley didn't even know he owned that company (I don't think, I'll have to re-watch).


I agree that the biggest connection so far is Hurley and Locke and even that one is not that strong of a connection. Hurley knows about the box company. His accountant told him that he was now the majority owner of a box company in Tustin, CA.

The connection does not need to be that they know each other in some fashion or their paths crossed at some time. It could be something as simple as a shared experience (besides the plane crash).

Vertical: I wasn't trying to drag anyone over to my line of thinking, I was just explaining why the crash is interesting to me, and why I enjoy playing around with the possibilities that there may have been something wonky about it.* But I'll wait for a Wonky Plane Crash thread to dissect it further.

:)

I know you weren't, I'm just incapable of refraining from responding when I disagree. :) It's annoying, I know. :)

Ah I see Vertical.* *:laugh:* * I don't think you're alone there, although you might be the only one honest enough* to admit it.* *:)

Thanks for your views Vertical - I must admit that I agree with you on just about everything that you have said.* Not that I would like to take the fun out of your argument either, Kato.* You just never know what revelations can take place between two "sparring" partners :-)* I have enjoyed it immensely.* *;D

Sleestak, I agree with you also on the shared experiences viewpoint.* It all seems just that little bit "6 degrees of separation" to me.* In fact, it's probably entirely possible that ALL of the characters will be proven to be interrelated at some point or another.* Adds to the intrigue just nicely.* That's probably the only place we don't agree, Vertical.

If it all turns out to be Walt's dream I will be particularly bummed out...

I agree that it is entirely possible that the crash was just that an unfortunate accident. The thing that makes that hard to believe is that we have now seen the same set of numbers from Danielle, Hurley and on the hatch. To use the analogy that was used if eating a bowl of cereal with a fork is central to the development of the plot then it will be used. I see the repetition of this numbers to be the fork. There is just too much coincidence for Hurley comming from California and Danielle on a science expedition ending up on the same Island because of the same set of numbers and the numbers being etched on a mysterious hatch. There has to be some relation to all of it. I just don't know the simple answer to that question.

There is just too much coincidence for Hurley comming from California and Danielle on a science expedition ending up on the same Island because of the same set of numbers and the numbers being etched on a mysterious hatch.

And don't forget all the connections between the characters we've been shown along the flashbacks.
It's like they were all meant to meet each other.

I agree that the 'connection's are too brief and hardly worth noticing with the exception of Jack's Dad and Sawyer.

Now it would impress me if say the psychic was sitting in a resturant worried about Claire and Jack and some of the other survivors happen to be* *there and maybe he accidently brushed past Jack and 'sees'* that he is a doctor and the plane crash and that Jack survives. Perhaps Charlie was there as well and the psychic brushes* past him as well and sees him and Jack and the crash and also senses this need of his to take 'care' of someone....'hmmm..a plane crash on an island with a doctor and a guy who would just take one look at the pretty pregnant girl and just want to help her out. Hmmm...

Or any other similar situation...THAT kind of stuff would impress me.* :laugh:

With regard to Claire's psychic, didn't she provide closure on that just before she went missing? I reall her saying something about "he knew"... Well, I'm assuming that was closure.

Then again - I am still not convinced that Locke was talking to a sex worker on the phone either - I am thinking it also may have been a psychic (like a psychic hotline)? The main reason for this is that the island seems to be so full of "supernatural" events.

I am not sure if your whole restaurant situation may be the key (although I too would be impressed by that!) but perhaps there is some other kind of psychic connection here?

With regard to Claire's psychic, didn't she provide closure on that just before she went missing? I recall her saying something about "he knew"... Well, I'm assuming that was closure.

Then again - I am still not convinced that Locke was talking to a sex worker on the phone either - I am thinking it also may have been a psychic (like a psychic hotline)? The main reason for this is that the island seems to be so full of "supernatural" events.


Yes I agree with you on that one Suzzy....the way Claire said it...left little doubt that she (and I) believed that he (the psychic) "knew" something was going to happen..it was just too obvious from his behavior & actions!!!??

Regards Locke & the phone sex worker...well....I think it was.
*cough* not that I know anything about that sort of thing of course ;)
But I don't think it's really relevant to the "big picture".....? I mean what difference does it make if he was talking to a sex worker or the Wiggles!!??? The big point I see floating around Locke is... was he actually crippled in the first place.....?
Well, can I suggest you revisit the pilot episode(s)...?
His reaction when waking up on the beach......well that was pretty damn convincing to me ;)
The original injury MAY have been trauma induced, psychosomatic....and subsequently *reversed* by the result & subsequent necessities of the crash....but I believe he *was* wheel chair bound prior to the crash.....
I think there has to be an *unnatural*....or *supernatural* part to at least some of the mystery......make it all too logical and you may lose people like me :-\

Rayder
:-)

What if he was shaking his toes just to make sure he still had the use of his legs ? And looked happy only because he survived the crash ?
He could'nt go for the walkabout, but he was still in vacation, he could have stayed in Sydney and recovered his legs at this moment.
Am i missing something ?

Nice thread!

Re the KISS (keep it simple, Stupid) factor, which I very much believe in, I'm currently running with the idea that the plane crash makes no sense and never will make sense in a "real world" sort of way. It does, however, make a certain amount of sense in a dramatic way, and it also makes sense pragmatically for the writers, directors and producers:

1. Big boom, cool special effects (like the tail section spinning off, leaving nothing but sky) The payoff? It's very dramatic and exciting. The pilot episode really makes a big impression on people and launches the show beautifully. Prime time disaster movie -- great ratings. And it's scary. The audience goes, "Aah!" and shudders next time they have to take a commercial flight.

2. The catastrophic turbulance happens at cruising altitude because the plane is horizontal, which is much more convenient than trying to shoot the inside of an airplane while it's ascending or descending. Besides, at least one passenger (Charlie) is scripted to get up from his seat and wonder around. So, plane can't be landing or taking off when the trouble occurs.

3. Realistically, if a plane got into trouble at cruising altitude, it would take quite a bit of time before it got down to crashing altitude. From a practical standpoint, however, not too much screen time can be spent on the details of the plane disaster. The writers have other important stuff to do in the pilot. Thus -- big boom, lots of turbulence, things flying about the cabin, oxygen masks descending, and people hanging on for dear life. Then, quick, cut to the wreckage on the ground.

I think Kate and Sayid's conversation was an acknowledgement on the part of the writers that no one should have survived a crash like that, but, in the world of Hollywood, sometimes stuff just happens, no rhyme, no reason. There were survivors because without survivors, there would be no show.

Now, why the plane crashed on this particular island -- that, I think is something they are going to explore.

My two cents...

Cheers,
Templeton

Well put, Templeton! Precisely how I feel.. Perhaps we need our own K.I.S.S. Group ship. Heh.

For me, it reminds me of those experiments they did where they created a false eco-environment to see if it was feasible. I think they did it in Arizona in the 80s? Biosphere?

What if he was shaking his toes just to make sure he still had the use of his legs ? And looked happy only because he survived the crash ?

Hmmm...yes you could be right in that, but the way the camera first focused on his face...looking around then onto just his toes which slowly started moving....all too purposefull for me ;)

Yes some very good points there Templeton :)

1. Big boom, cool special effects (like the tail section spinning off, leaving nothing but sky)

Yup I agree with you there....I think it is just there to set the dramatic circumstances, nothing more. I think people are concentrating too much on the "how" and not the "why" How did people survive?....well does it really matter? The fact is they did. Why did the plane crash...ahhh...now that may be worth knowing ;)

2. The catastrophic turbulance happens at cruising altitude because the plane is horizontal....

I revisited the pilot episodes yesterday & the scene in the cockpit with the co-pilot, he actually says "blah blah....by the time we hit turbulence we were a thousand miles off course...."
Is that confirmation that it was just turbulence that cause the tail failure??? Would the cockpit crew know the difference between an internal explosion in a cargo hold and....say maybe the failure of a cargo door which may have opened up due to turbulence? (Suzzy I need you here)?????

3. Realistically, if a plane got into trouble at cruising altitude, it would take quite a bit of time before it got down to crashing altitude.

Ahhh....another good point :)
Do we actually know the elapsed time between the failure(s) and the crash??? Help someone!!!!!! :lol2:


For me, it reminds me of those experiments they did where they created a false eco-environment to see if it was feasible. I think they did it in Arizona in the 80s? Biosphere?

Ahhh yes the Biosphere.....and I believe that particular experiment failed ;)

Rayder

Oh boy, Vertical and Templeton! I would sooo join up if you did! Please if you make a K.I.S.S group let me know! *;D :lol2:

ETA: Apparently I have offended people so...taking out the reference to what made me laugh. Sorry.

No real need to spell out what theory made you bust a gut laughing, is there Zoriah?*

Well put, Templeton! Precisely how I feel.. Perhaps we need our own K.I.S.S. Group ship. Heh.


Now, THAT'S a ship I might actually join!

lostbylost,

I was assuming he was paralyzed but had recovered his legs somewhere between the scene in the office and the crash. He was still in vacation, he could have stayed in Sydney.

LBL, I don't think there are supposed to be any spoilers in this section. :-\

Sorry . . .

I think this section is special. The idea is once you bring a spoiler in, then people start speculating based on this spoiler info, and then the line between spoiler and speculation gets blurred. I think that's what led to the original division of the theory boards.

I don't mean to be a pain about it, I'm just trying to keep the separation clear. Sorry. :(

I think that was the idea too, and I do like it, because once someone introduces a spoiler then the only people who can continue with the theory are people willing to read the spoiler, if that makes sense.*

(Not trying to be a pain either!* And I do miss some of the old gang in the Wild Theories forum, including you LBL -- you all must be spending most of your time in spec these days.)

I deleted the posts. I misunderstood, didn't mean to cause any problems.

Now - where were we?!

Aaah - yes.* I think we have discussed and agreed (in this thread...) that the plane crashing is probably not as important as HOW it crashed.* Likelihood?* It was possibly shot at, or ran into a bit of trouble flying through some kind of "force field" around the island.* Magnetic?* Something to do with the mysterious black rock (which could be Magnetite or something similar)?

Locke's legs.* Well - he sill has 'em, and oddly enough they have started working somewhere between walkabout and the plane crash.* If only we knew the timeframe with that one, and the actual reason why they stopped working (supposedly) in the first place.* He could have been in hospital in Sydney receiving some kind of revolutionary treatment after his failed Walkabout attempt?* Perhaps it is simply trauma from the crash?

Anyone organised that K.I.S.S. Group Ship yet?!

Yes it is called H.O.R.T.A. and there is a theory thread for the group in this General Theories section, and also a group ship sign up thread in the Groups section. :D

Now - where were we?!
Locke's legs.* Well - he sill has 'em, and oddly enough they have started working somewhere between walkabout and the plane crash.* If only we knew the timeframe with that one, and the actual reason why they stopped working (supposedly) in the first place.* He could have been in hospital in Sydney receiving some kind of revolutionary treatment after his failed Walkabout attempt?* Perhaps it is simply trauma from the crash?


Now that´s something very interesting.
Most people agree on that it IS rather strange that someone in a wheelchair is sitting in the middle of the plane (would be quite unpractical). Also, we don´t KNOW that Locke was confirmed to a wheelchair at the time the plane took off. There might be a very simple explanation to this, perhaps he was NOT in a wheelshair anymore at the time of the take off? Perhaps he was able to walk on board the plane himself (thus the seating in the middle of the plane far from exits and toilets). He might have started to regain the use of his legs by anger of not being allowed on the walkabout? And if he had a couple of days between the walkabout refusal and the flight home, he might very well have regained coordination and strength enough to just be able to stand up after the crash and walk away?

It is dangerous to assume anything when it comes to Lost, and since we have NOT been given clear info that Locke WAS indeed paralyzed when on the plane we should probably not assume he was only based on the fact that he was paralyzed in the "walkabout-office". We don't know the time between that happening and the date of the take off....

In trying to keep it simple. The writers have given us enough, the fact that Locke wiggles his toes, has the look of wonder in his eyes and then we are shown a wheelchair after the crash. They futher back it up by showing us Locke in a wheelchair in Walkabout. The simplest explanation is he need the wheelchair to get around. Something happened either physically or magically after the crash that allowed him to walk again.

Or in the time between the walkabout office and the plane crash.....

Yes it is possible.

However the writers have given us no indication of anything happening between the time Locke left the office and the plane crashing. I'm just saying based on what we have been shown about Locke, the simplest answer is he was wheelchair bound until after the crash.

They haven't shown us anything, except for the fact that Locke is NOT sitting where you would expect a wheelchairb bound person to sit in an airplane.
I'm just leaving the question open, since we don't have any info on the time between the walkabout office and after the crash........ I fear to assume anything on Lost, since that may be "fatal" :laugh:

We are all entitled to our own opinions and I by no means am trying to belittle yours. I just thought it simpler to go where the writers were leading as far as what they have shown us and not based on what they haven't revealed.

Or in the time between the walkabout office and the plane crash.....


Now, if it were me...and I suddenly gained the ability to walk BEFORE getting on the plane...I sure wouldn't lug that blasted wheelchair with me on the stupid plane. Of course that means we're assuming the wheelchair found with the wreckage actually belonged to Locke and not to anyone else. So...never mind. :lol2:

Exactly what I mean, assumption IS dangerous when it comes to Lost :lol2:

I'm more inclined to think that the 'miracle' happened at the point of impact. Otherwise it's horribly irrelevant to the story, IMO. The writers showed us that he couldn't walk prior to the crash, and that he could walk afterwards. They showed us that he was fascinated by the fact that he could move his feet. They showed us his wheelchair. This all, IMO, points to the fact that up until that moment on the beach, nothing had changed. That uses what we've been shown, not what we haven't. I concede that it is possible that he regained the ability to walk sometime between the walkabout and the flight, but I doubt that that's where they'll go with it. Possible, but not likely.

If he regained the use of his legs between the time the wheelchair was revealed in Walkabout and the plane crash, why was he even on the plane then? If he could walk before the crash, before takeoff, then he would have been on "walkabout", not getting on a plane to go home.

agreed Smidge.
he would not have to keep up the pretense.

now i am hearing spoilers that the end of the season will be mind blowing.

so, lord knows why these people act like they do.

agreed Smidge.
he would not have to keep up the pretense.

now i am hearing spoilers that the end of the season will be mind blowing.



Not sure if that's a spoiler. Not even sure if it's "newsworthy" since that's how the show is from episode to episode! I expect nothing less! ;D

When Hurley was taking the census and asked Locke what he was in Australia:

Locke: I was looking for something.

Hurley: Did you find it?

Locke: No, it found me.

It sounded to me like something happened in Australia. Any then again this conversation with Boone just before they found the hatch:

Locke: Can't you feel it?

Boone: Feel what?

Locke: IT

What is IT? Any thoughts?

I think the preview for Deus Ex Machina kills the theory that he could walk prior to crashing on the island.

When Hurley was taking the census and asked Locke what he was in Australia:

Locke: I was looking for something.

Hurley: Did you find it?

Locke: No, it found me.

It sounded to me like something happened in Australia. Any then again this conversation with Boone just before they found the hatch:

Locke: Can't you feel it?

Boone: Feel what?

Locke: IT

What is IT? Any thoughts?


I believe that Locke was talking about the fact that the Island is his destiny. He went to Australia thinking that Walkabout was it but by the time he talks to Hurley knows that in his mind this was his destiny.

When with Boone I believe he is talking about feeling in tune with the Island. He can feel things that others can't, like the exact time give or take a few seconds, when it is going to rain. What we might refer to as a "gut" feeling.

Locke does seem the type to rely on 'gut' instinct, or intuition a lot.

He also uses words like 'feel', 'faith', and 'magic' several times. Out of all of them, Locke does seem to be the most open to a mystical quality to the island, and the idea that it brought them there for a reason, that it was their 'destiny'.

We've also seen that Locke has always lived in a bit of a 'fantasy' world, though. The inter-office military gaming and play phone calls, the relationship he thought he had with whoever was on the other end of that phone (which clearly wasn't reciprocated)...

This island is Locke's dream come true - an island full of mystery where he's been loosed to play the explorer. He's no longer having to pretend, he fully believes the island is 'magical'.

Do you think Locke has let Boone in on what he knows about the island? *I got the feeling he's been talking to him about it after hearing Boone's conversation with Shannon in his "hallucination". *Boone tells her that Locke is the only one that knows whats going on on the island. *Being that he's spent so much time with Locke, they must have had conversations. *And if I were Boone I'd be asking tons of questions! *I would think Locke would trust Boone with some of his secrets after je gives Boone his *life-changing experience.

The one thing that I can be sure of about Locke is that he will not tell anyone anything unless he feels they need to know. I believe Boone is very impressionable. Locke is the Hunter, knows how to throw knives, is a tracker, the resident philosopher, has given Boone a chance to be useful(which is huge for Boone), can predict rainfall and knows his way around without getting lost. I think that is plenty to justify Boone's comment during his hallucination. I still think a herniated disk is the simple answer, My brother has one and from one day to the next it changes, one day he feels like he can run a marathon, the next he can't get out of bed. So Locke's relapse actually fits the pattern. As long as the pressure is relieved from the spinal nerves all is okay but if it moves and "pinches" a nerve it can knock you off your feet.

Watching last night's episode, made me think. Did Jack have some contact immediately with Locke immediately prior to his hallucination. Since he caused Boone's hallucination maybe he caused Jack's. I don't have any episodes on tape so if someone could check it out I would greatly appreciate it.

Watching last night's episode, made me think.* Did Jack have some contact immediately with Locke immediately prior to his hallucination.* Since he caused Boone's hallucination maybe he caused Jack's.* I don't have any episodes on tape so if someone could check it out I would greatly appreciate it.


I skimmed a couple recaps and all I can find is that Jack took off after FakeDaddy right after Boone complained to him about saving him. I didn't see anything to indicate that Jack was anywhere near Locke.

Watching last night's episode, made me think. Did Jack have some contact immediately with Locke immediately prior to his hallucination. Since he caused Boone's hallucination maybe he caused Jack's. I don't have any episodes on tape so if someone could check it out I would greatly appreciate it.


I am not sure where you're going with Jack having contact with Locke?* Care to expand on that lostbylost?* Sounds interesting...

I happened to see the pilot ep again recently (part 2 I think) and that was the part where Locke was talking to Walt about his "secret".* He told Walt that "a miracle happened here" which sounds to me like confirmation that he regained the use of his legs on the island.* The hernia thing could be possible, there's no doubt about it.

Going back to that fabulous Ep no. 13 where Shannon's death was hallucinated (wished?) by Boone, does anyone have a theory on what that stuff was that Locke put on Boone's head?* Any Bush Tucker Men (or Women) out there who can shed some light on that?

If he regained the use of his legs between the time the wheelchair was revealed in Walkabout and the plane crash, why was he even on the plane then? If he could walk before the crash, before takeoff, then he would have been on "walkabout", not getting on a plane to go home.


Quite true. However, my point is that we don't (so far) KNOW whether he was paralyzed or able to walk in the time period between the walkabout office and the awakening on the beach. It is perhaps most probable that he regained the ability to walk in the crash, however, we don't knot that. Yet. Perhaps we will get the answer tomorrow ???
Until then, based strictly on what we know (not taking speculation into consideration), we know that he was in a wheel chair at the walkabout office and that he was able to walk right after the crash. What happened in between is speculation..... ;)

Aaah yes! Tomorrow's episode... which for us in Australia won't be until Thursday! Curse this dreaded time difference...

Yep. I agree. Locke was in a wheelchair in the Walkabout Office. There was a wheelchair on the plane - but we don't know that it was definitely his (we "assume" so). When the plane crashed, a miracle happened according to Locke and presto! He can walk again.

The truth is definitely floating out there somewhere between the Walkabout office and the beach.

And in Sweden epi 19 will be on in a couple of months or so (epi 9 is up tomorrow) >:(
However, I do really think there will be at lest SOME answers, and since the writers know what we want, expect and how the "losties" watch every single detail, I dare say that every small detail will be thought through, discussed and paid attention to.... ;)

You know, I really think that we've all given the writers some great material for them to use when planning the second series!* *:)*

I hope that they do read the posts, because at the very least it greatly compliments their ability to produce incredibly addictive and thought-provoking entertainment.*

Will be watching episode 19 soon ... and I'm SURE I will have some closure on our current Locke tangent if what I hear is true.* * :laugh:

Will be watching episode 19 soon ... and I'm SURE I will have some closure on our current Locke tangent if what I hear is true.* * :laugh:

Well Suzzy I think we got closure on some things....but also a few more questions as well* *:laugh:
For the sheer "OMG!!!" factor....to me that was the best Episode yet!!!* ;D

The mind is a incredibly powerful thing, capable of good things.....and some very bad things.
In relation to Loche, I'm now of the opinion that his inability to walk is very much a psychological injury rather that a physical one. Who else thought when that car backed into him that that was going to be "the" moment?..... :o
I think that after being used by his Mother (DNA test) and his "Father" (?)* I think we will find it's Loche's "mind" that causes him to lose the ability to* walk? Now after the trauma of a major air disaster...is it possible he *suddenly* regained the ability to walk again? That's not an every day occurrence. Then we first start to see him "falter" after the failed attempt to open the hatch....he was very distressed by his failure.....was his mind "punishing" him for that failure??? That could also explain why he again "suddenly" regained the ability to not only walk but CARRY Boone back to camp!!! It was the situation and the sheer necessity that gave Loche the mental strength again to do it.

And speaking of Loche's Father,* I originally thought it would have to be his Father to be a suitable match as a kidney donour....but with modern anti-rejection drugs is that an issue any more? Can someone help us out about that fact??? He did say "I'm an old man...and it's a very long list" He doesn't actually mention anything about finding a "match" as such. It's obvious that he had coached Loche's Mother very well in what to say etc.....he's quite the "confidence" man isn't he???* Do we have another "link" between characters here? ;)

Rayder
:)

Yes - I'm not entirely convinced that they were Father and Son, although the resultant stress could have been an underlying cause of Lockes paralysis.

Rayder - you could be onto a good thing here with the theory that it is a mind-controlled illness.* There have been many cases of psychosomatic illness where the patient has been literally rendered dysfunctional (physically and mentally) as a result - usually due to major trauma.

Take a look at this link:-* http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/conversion_disorder.htm

In cases of Conversion Disorder, it can be simply brought on by remembering a traumatic event.* I read a story about a woman who had a paralysis of her arm whenever she was unconsciously reminded of her feelings toward her father.* *It turns out that at the time her father died she had been sitting at his bedside with her arm pressed against the chair at the side of the bed.

When we first see Locke things are going well for him, and things are under control.* As soon as Locke starts to lose control on the island - just like after the kidney transplant - we see him starting to lose the use of his legs.* When he was in control and carrying Boone to safety, he regained the use of his legs because he had a purpose.

It would also explain how he could have been impaled by a stick and not feel a thing, and have the souls of his feet burned.* We all know how mind over matter works with people who walk on hot coals ...

I would not be entirely surprised if we were to hear of more trauma from his early childhood in "several foster homes".*

If his paralysis was due to a more physical (rather than mental) affliction, I am skeptical as to whether he could actually walk AT ALL with no feeling in his legs...

It would also explain how he could have been impaled by a stick and not feel a thing, and have the souls of his feet burned.* We all know how mind over matter works with people who walk on hot coals ...

Ahh yes forgot about that....thanks for mentioning it* :)
Yes it would also help explain why he had no reaction to the shrapnel....he was very* focused on the hatch and nothing else seemed to matter. And as you say....there are fire walks out there with some pretty good mind control!


If his paralysis was due to a more physical (rather than mental) affliction, I am skeptical as to whether he could actually walk AT ALL with no feeling in his legs...

That's the thing that was bugging me after watching* D.E.M. how the ability to walk could suddenly come & go like that.....

Lets hope we get some definitive answers.....!!???* :D

Something has been bothering me ... (well, more than usual ...)

Sayid. Why was Sayid on the plane? Where was he on the plane? Why was he in Australia?

Any clues?

Something has been bothering me ... (well, more than usual ...)

Sayid.* Why was Sayid on the plane?* Where was he on the plane?* Why was he in Australia?

Any clues?


They have given us no clue so far. The only thing we have seen in someone elses flashback is him being harassed by airport security in Sydney prior to boarding. There is an upcomming episode that is Sayid centric hopefully we will get the answers in that episode.

The only thing we have seen in someone elses flashback is him being harassed by airport security in Sydney prior to boarding.


Ahhhhh :)
Do you know what Episode that was lostbylost?
I'd love to check it out ;D

I think it was House of the rising Sun, but it could have been White Rabbit. I'll check the transcriots and let you know.

Hey there,

Been through the scenes in House of the Rising Sun with Jin and Sun ... meticulously searched through the airport scene frame by frame and the only person I can recognise is Jack? ... there is some guy in the background who looks like he is having an animated conversation but it's not one of our main characters ...

If Sayid is in any of the airport scenes - I'll find him!!!!

Watch this space...

Sawyer mentions that he saw Sayid get pulled out of the line at the airport when they are having their first brawl in Pilot 2. May be that was what you were thinking of LBL? I have eps up to ATBCHDI and don't recall seeing Sayid at the airport. Drat now I will have to check again hehe. :lol2:

OK! In the fight scene, Sawyer mentions that Sayid was sitting in the back row of business class the whole trip with his hands folded under a blanket ...

When Charlie makes his dash on the plane toward the rest room (earlier, same ep), he climbs across the second back row of seats in business class right across in front of Boone and Shannon, there is a guy there with black hair in the back row, but he is slumped down in his seat like he's asleep and it's impossible to tell who he is.

So - perhaps we have closure on where he was on the plane because the writers have told us? All we have yet to know is WHY he was on the flight? and why he was in Australia to start with?

Thanks for the heads-up on Pilot 2 Zoriah :)

I can't recall which episode it was and I don't have them taped. But I do recall a scene at the airport where Sayid is in the background and 2 uniformed officials are talking to him. Too many details not enough grey matter.

Hey all

New to the board, but not the show. I wonder if I missed something though. In reference to Locke, is it actually a known fact at what point he became paralyzed or is that still up for debate?

Great thread, I'm a fan of only putting things together as they are revealed, although it can be fun to make up wacky theories. ;)

Happy Lost viewing
Boston

G'day LostinBoston - welcome to the Fuselage. :)

At this point we really don't know what has paralysed our friend Locke. We know that he was still walking at the time when he had his kidney operation, but was in a wheelchair in the Walkabout office. We don't know the timeframe between the walkabout office and the plane journey that brought him to be lost, nor do we know what caused him to become paralysed in the first place.

There are a couple of possible scenarios in this thread - but at this stage it is "logical speculation" (well it is on this thread anyway!)

Do you have any ideas LostinBoston?

Also willing to discuss whether Locke is a "good guy" or a "bad guy" - or is he misguided with a dominant personal agenda? ...

I believe Locke is misguided. The "Island" his term has become his GOD. It gave him the ability to walk whether his condition is physical or psychological. He is the only one to actually see the monster and he believes the "Island" is communicating with him. My theory with nothing more than conjecture to back it up at this point is that he believes the "Island" is giving everyone a chance to start over again and to over come their past . It's almost as if he believes the "Island" has appointed him the Lostaways spiritual guide. He doesn't want to leave the "Island" and I think is trying to get the other survivor's to see the beauty he sees and that once they do they will want to stay.

Yes - quite possibly Lostbylost. I agree totally.

If I were to put a "simple, believable, logical, 20th Century real world" explanation to it, it would probably be:-

There is a group of individuals on the island (the others) that were there well before our group of lostaways arrived. Locke has been in contact with them - indeed it is likely that they were "watching" the group and noticed that Locke was taking the role of "tribal warrior". I think Ethan was that island spy having spent quite some considerable amount of time with Locke before he was found out. Locke posesses some qualities that the others admire (or require), and that they have given him an opportunity to see into their world as long as it's him alone and not involving any of the other survivors.

The key to their world is probably either through the hatch (which I think is actually an exit rather than an entrance) or the black rock. Indeed they seem to be performing experiments of some kind.

This doesn't answer many of the questions that have been raised, but is probably the only explanation that doesn't rely on a true DEM to be explained (I would be really disappointed if they really did use one and didn't just use it as a clever episode title).

I am not convinced about the "monster" thing. It HAS to be some kind of machinery that is operated by someone (otherwise it doesn't eat much ...).