As theories break down they fall by the wayside, dropping down the page to flow away into oblivion. So, we try again. Sometimes with an entirely new premise, sometimes with an evolution of the old. Think of this one as a sort of "Beyond Paradise LOST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_lost)"...

The Argument
What is the origin of the conflict between faith and free will? Fate and choice? Like the conundrum of the chicken and the egg, was humanity expelled from the "garden" because they chose free will over faith? Or, was it part of the design. A set-up, a con, designed so that humanity would fail, and thus allow them the freedom to choose their own fate?

The Box
Presented with the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and a little nudge, humanity chose to "know". To find out what was in the sealed box. To find the "answer". Had humanity been faithful, that is had they believed that all their questions would be answered, would they have become what their Creator intended?

Instead, that Creator seemingly broke faith with humanity, played them false. The Creator allowed for temptation and an agent to spur the desire to "know".

The Promise
The Garden was a paradise. Everything humanity could desire was found therein. The children of the Creator grew up there. But, if they were to fulfill the Creator's hope for them, they could not remain. They must go forth, and create their own gardens, and they must do so by their own choice. But first, they must be allowed the original choice. The option of a paradise provided, or the freedom to pursue one of their own making.

The promise came in the form of another box. The Future Box. The unknown. The key to opening it lay in the imagination. The greatest gift of the Creator. For humanity's choices would be found in the imagination. Plucked from the imagination, humanity could choose a future from the box. Would that future be a new Garden?

History
Millennia passed. Humanity struggled, and sometimes the dream was LOST. Imagination was a double-edged sword. And, while it protected some, it cut others. Religion, faith, reminded some of the promise. Somewhere there was a Garden. War, and the mutually assured destruction offered by its abuse, seemed to signal the end of humanity's hope for a return to the Garden.

The Circle
What would happen if the choice was offered again? If representatives of humanity found themselves in the Garden facing the same situation? Would humanity be allowed free will, and given that free will would they elect to remain in the Garden this time?

Would it be possible to recreate the Garden? To arrange circumstances just so, providing a paradise in which humanity would really feel that their every wish could come true? And once it was established, would humanity choose the same way?

Would the Creator deign to interfere in some way, to influence such an experiment?

Or perhaps that Garden of Eden is Perelandra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perelandra).

A Spoiler about one of the new characters' name :

The new Charlotte character's full name is Charlotte Staples Lewis, as in Clive Staples Lewis, better known as C.S. Lewis.

His most famous work is the Chronicles of Narnia, of course, which could tie in with the idea of Portals to a magical land. But his other major work was his Space Trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Trilogy). Within that trilogy is Perelandra, "a new Garden of Eden with a new Adam and Eve, to oppose the diabolically inspired human physicist Professor Weston who has been sent to tempt the Eve figure."
"Ransom arrives in Venus and finds it to be an oceanic paradise. One day is about 23 Earth hours, in contrast to Earth and Mars with their (roughly) 24 and 25 hour days, respectively."

Sound familiar ?

love it hv! very thought provoking

** goes away to think **
100%
p.s. - Lucidity you should check Tib's latest post

Great idea, HV! Very interestin'.

BlackLotus >
p.s. - Lucidity you should check Tib's latest post


Spooky.
Either Tiberius was inspired by the same Spoiler I saw or there's something to it.

Or perhaps that Garden of Eden is Perelandra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perelandra).

Nice, Luc. Whatever the Garden model came from, I do think that's what TPTB are working with... I'm looking forward to where they'll go with it. So many opportunities for thought-provoking allegory!

Interesting to note that one of the "characters" in the debate about the fall/grace of man was Jacobus Arminius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius).

In the beginning, there was no Garden. Only the unopened Box, the box of the future as created by the imagination. The limits of the imagination limited the futures available.

Eons passed. People evolved. The appendix became no more. So did the little Toe. We evolved into 4-toed people.

Our knowledge and imaginations expanded. Recognizing that the Universe was consigned to Fate - it's going to scatter to infinity, so much cold lifeless dust - people realized that the only way to have Eternal Life was to change how we thought about Time - and when we started playing around with Time, we start playing with Free Will and Fate.

The Earth became a Hell. The only habitable places were the poles - Antarctica and the Arctic. The Island was created, a place which literally manifested the Imagination.

Those on the Island, wishing for Eternity, made the decision to Go Back.

The Creator, then, isn't an external deity. The Creator is the collective consciousnesses of the future human race. They've sent us a message in a bottle, via the Circle. They have willingly sacrificed themselves so that we might change our own future - to create Heaven on Earth instead of Hell. The only way to prevent a predestination paradox is for there to be a "bridge" - a sacrificial lamb. Someone with access to both futures.

Someone like Desmond.

Fate and Choice are two sides of the same coin. They aren't opposed to each other. They work together in concert. To choose a particular Future is to lay oneself out to Fate, for getting to that future limits the choices before one - there are only so many road to the future chosen. Fate and Choice are a false dichotomy. If I want to be a doctor, I'm fated to go to med school. If I choose to reject all fates, I'm fated to be driftwood on the quantum foam of the sea of the Universe.

There's another choice besides remaking the Garden, the place of infancy, of suckling from within the womb. We can choose to be Creators ourselves. To make ourselves into Gods.

"Alas, I knew noble men who lost their highest hope. Then they slandered all high hopes. Then they lived impudently in brief pleasures and barely cast their goals beyond the day. Spirit too is lust, so they said. Then the wings of their spirit broke: and now their spirit crawls about and soils what it gnaws. Once they thought of becoming heroes: now they are voluptuaries. The hero is for them an offense and a fright.

But by my love and hope I beseech you: do not throw away the hero in your soul! Hold holy your highest hope!"

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Or perhaps that Garden of Eden is Perelandra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perelandra).

A Spoiler about one of the new characters' name :

"Ransom arrives in Venus and finds it to be an oceanic paradise. One day is about 23 Earth hours, in contrast to Earth and Mars with their (roughly) 24 and 25 hour days, respectively."

Sound familiar ?



23 hours? Really?
I'm going to steal this for the Alice matter theory. With credit of course. Thank you for the great find.

Mike

Sorry for being OT, HV. This is one of your most compelling conceptions yet. The metaphor seems to fit perfectly.


ETA: Holy cow. Did you guys see The Dark Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_%281977_novel%29), Lewis' unfinished novel?

But by my love and hope I beseech you: do not throw away the hero in your soul! Hold holy your highest hope!

From the Wikipedia page on Paradise Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_lost):

They are then cast out of Eden and an angel adds that one may find "A paradise within thee, happier farr."

There are those that think that Eden, a land where wishes come true, where all is provided, would be paradise. And there are those that know that true paradise can only be found within.

This doesn't make much sense, even to me. Yet these words whisper to me, teasing at at the outskirts of my consciousness. There's some... um... editing.

And you who seek to know me, know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not unless you know the Mystery: If that which you seek you find not Within, you shall never find it Without. For behold, I have been with you from the Beginning, and I am that which is attained at the End of Desire.4 - The Island

The Light shines most exceedingly, and there was no measure for the Light in which there was. For the Light shone more radiantly than at the hour on high, so that men in the world cannot describe the light which was brought forth; and it shot forth waves in great abundance, and there was no measure for its waves, and its light was not alike together, but it was of diverse kind and of diverse type, some waves being more excellent than others... and the whole Light consisted together.

8 - The Heroes

Now the time of its completion is the time when it shall be shown through the Mystery to discourse from the beginning of the Truth to the completion thereof, and from the interiors of the interiors to the exteriors of the exteriors, for the world will be saved through you. Rejoice then and exult, for ye are blessed before all men who are on the earth. It is ye who will save the whole world.

15 - Matter is not Light, and is left-handed.

It came to pass then, when all those who are in the Twelve Æons saw the Great Light that they were all thrown into agitation one over against the other, and ran hither and thither in the Æons, on account of the great fear which was on them, for they knew not the Mystery which had taken place. It came to pass then, when they fought against the Light, that they were weakened all together one with another, were dashed down in the Æons and became as the inhabitants of the Earth, dead and without Breath of Life...

For by command of the First Rule and by command of the First Mystery, the Eye had set them facing the left at every time and accomplishing their influences and their deeds.

16 - Mirror Matter restores parity

It came to pass then, when the Mystery came into their Region, that they mutinied and fought against the Light. And they Lost a third of their power, in order that they should not be able to accomplish their evil deeds. And the Fate and the Sphere of which they rule hath changed, setting them facing the left six months and accomplishing their influences, and setting them turned another six months to the right and accomplishing their influences.

23 - This makes a Circle, a Good Thing for those True to Themselves

The Path changed for the salvation of All. If not, a host would have been destroyed, and they would have spent a long time, if the rule of the Æons and the rule of the Fate and of the Sphere and of all her regions and all the Heavens had not been brought to naught; and all would have continued a long time here outside, and the completion of the number of Mysteries would have been delayed, of which shall be counted in the Inheritance through the Mysteries and shall be one with the Island.

For this cause the Path changed, that they might be deluded and fall into agitation and yield up the power which is in the matter of their world and which they fashion themselves, in order that those who shall be saved might be quickly purified and raised on high, they and the whole power, and that those who shall not be saved, might be quickly destroyed.

42 - The Importance of Writing, or, There Is Work To Do

Hearken, Blessed One, of the Discourse, for it is thou and thine on whom it is enjoined by the Mystery to write all the discourses shown and spake, all things which ye shall see. But as for thee, the number of the discourses which thou hast to write, is so far not yet completed. When it is then completed, thou art to come forward and proclaim what pleaseth thee. Now, therefore, ye have to write down all the discourses and all things seen which ye shall see, in order that ye may bear witness to all of the Island.

108 - Love Prevails

Carry ye of whom ye think in your heart, carry him out of all the chastisements of the rulers and haste ye quickly before her Light; and in every Moon let her Light seal him with a higher seal, and in every Moon let her Light cast him into a body which will be righteous and good, so that it goeth on high and inheriteth the Stars.

Nice quotes, jane! I'm not a scholar of Milton (although I'm playing one in this thread), but I assume they are either from him or yourself.

And you who seek to know me, know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not unless you know the Mystery: If that which you seek you find not Within, you shall never find it Without. For behold, I have been with you from the Beginning, and I am that which is attained at the End of Desire.

Like I posted in Dr. Sud's hoax thread, the concept that these people are "not who we think they are" works because these people are not who they think they are. The Losties have identity issues because of the unsettled states of their lives. They're "conning" themselves into believing they are other people.

Seeking inner peace, or happiness, in this context means your efforts "shall avail you not". Buddhism teaches that Enlightenment is found at the "End of Desire", following the Noble Eightfold Path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path).

In the context of Paradise LOST, I believe that we are seeing the journey of the Losties towards a sort of enlightenment, that is self-realization and inner peace. For some the journey is longer than for others. But, like the growth of a child into understanding, it is fascinating to watch.

Nice quotes, jane! I'm not a scholar of Milton (although I'm playing one in this thread), but I assume they are either from him or yourself.

The opening quote is from Doreen Valiente. The rest are my interpretations of the Pistis Sophia, a Gnostic text which makes reference to Twin Saviors. The numbers indicate which chapters I pulled from and, um, rewrote.

I come from a tradition that encourages the rewriting of mythic texts and stories. Like, the story of Persephone as I understand it is very different from the story generally told. Most people think that she was taken by force into the Underworld, but I think that's more Demeter's interpretation. From Persephone's point of view, I think she was willing to make the journey - it was her Choice. It was time for her to step into her own being, her own adulthood, her own self-ownership. And she wasn't tricked into eating the seeds, either.

Anyways, back to Paradise.

Like I posted in Dr. Sud's hoax thread, the concept that these people are "not who we think they are" works because these people are not who they think they are. The Losties have identity issues because of the unsettled states of their lives. They're "conning" themselves into believing they are other people.

Yes. In a sense they are re-authoring their lives. Rewriting their stories. Becoming mythic. "That's what they say. That's not what they mean." The body, the exterior experience of embodiment, that's one thing. The meaning we make out of our lives is quite another.

Rewriting of the self is one way to "experience" dissolution and reconstitution. From caterpillar into moth.

In the context of Paradise LOST, I believe that we are seeing the journey of the Losties towards a sort of enlightenment, that is self-realization and inner peace. For some the journey is longer than for others. But, like the growth of a child into understanding, it is fascinating to watch.

Yes. Though typical of the Western point of view, I see the Losties being more participatory and co-creative of their journey and enlightenment, of investing in each other as much as in themselves. I sense in much of Buddhism the notion of withdrawal from the world, which in the long term may be maladaptive.

I wonder if the "big" mistake made by the Oceanic 6 was going their separate ways, rather than remaining in some sort of familial community.

The opening quote is from Doreen Valiente. The rest are my interpretations of the Pistis Sophia, a Gnostic text which makes reference to Twin Saviors. The numbers indicate which chapters I pulled from and, um, rewrote.

I come from a tradition that encourages the rewriting of mythic texts and stories. Like, the story of Persephone as I understand it is very different from the story generally told. Most people think that she was taken by force into the Underworld, but I think that's more Demeter's interpretation. From Persephone's point of view, I think she was willing to make the journey - it was her Choice. It was time for her to step into her own being, her own adulthood, her own self-ownership. And she wasn't tricked into eating the seeds, either.

Nice. Thanks for sharing. I love imagining the story behind the stories as well!

I sense in much of Buddhism the notion of withdrawal from the world, which in the long term may be maladaptive.

I'm not a Buddhist scholar, but I think they might say that it is the opposite of withdrawal, and rather sensing the connection of all things (and, really all things!) Like the idea of Indra's Net, no cause comes from a single effect. Your intentions will be interwoven with the all before they generate an effect. To "surf the wave", you first have to realize that you're on a wave.

I wonder if the "big" mistake made by the Oceanic 6 was going their separate ways, rather than remaining in some sort of familial community.

Yeah, I think so. "Live together, or die alone."

I'm not a Buddhist scholar, but I think they might say that it is the opposite of withdrawal, and rather sensing the connection of all things (and, really all things!) Like the idea of Indra's Net, no cause comes from a single effect. Your intentions will be interwoven with the all before they generate an effect. To "surf the wave", you first have to realize that you're on a wave.

I like that way of thinking about it. Thanks!

Paradise Lost, Book 3 -- God sitting on his Throne sees Satan flying towards this world, then newly created; shews him to the Son who sat at his right hand; foretells the success of Satan in perverting mankind; clears his own Justice and Wisdom from all imputation, having created Man free and able enough to have withstood his Tempter; yet declares his purpose of grace towards him, in regard he fell not of his own malice, as did Satan, but by him seduc't.

Ben, talking to Juliet in Exposé about Jack doing the spinal surgery, said:

BEN: No, I can convince him to do it.
JULIET: How?
BEN: Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in, and I exploit it.

And much like Satan promised the other fallen angels he'd lead them back to Heaven, Ben told Jack:

"That's home, Jack. Right there, on the other side of that glass. And if you listen to me--if you trust me--if you do what I tell you, when the time comes, I'll take you there. I will take you home."

Jack has said that, more than anything, he wanted to get off the island. This wouldn't have been too difficult for someone with Ben's insight to discern. And I believe Ben fed Jack's desire and exploited his independent spirit by urging him not to do certain things.

Ben made it appear to Jack that this was his own decision, at which he'd freely arrived, when in reality he'd been "seduc't".

some great thoughts here - a point to add, a question and a statement (in that order)

the tree of life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Life_%28Judeo-Christian%29) was located in the garden - could that be the source of Alpert's longevity?
This also represents the axis mundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi) which could be the I in the )I( symbol.

If the island is the Garden of eden, Metaphorically or otherwise, why can't god see the island (according to Ben)

p.s. Jane - you rock!

One of my theories is the Losties have been chosen to repopulate earth... so the island would be a manmade garden of Eden.

I have that same question Black Lotus...why does Ben say EVEN GOD CAN'T SEE THE ISLAND, but then how would Ben know what God does or doesn't see? Second, is there a way Ben could be right? Because isn't the very definition of God that he/she can see all, be everywhere, is everything?

well, thats a tough one simone, because this is Ben we are talking about (although i think he usually tells the truth - the best liars do so by nearly always being truthful)

but he also said to jack 'do you believe in god'...'because two weeks after i find out i need a spinal surgeon one drops out of the sky'

hopefully we will find out one day...

the tree of life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Life_%28Judeo-Christian%29) was located in the garden - could that be the source of Alpert's longevity?
This also represents the axis mundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi) which could be the I in the )I( symbol.

If the island is the Garden of eden, Metaphorically or otherwise, why can't god see the island (according to Ben)

I have that same question Black Lotus...why does Ben say EVEN GOD CAN'T SEE THE ISLAND, but then how would Ben know what God does or doesn't see?

Keep in mind that, like most of the analogies I've posted recently, I suspect that the references are to help us understand the story. Is the island literally Eden? I don't know. I think it has many of the properties we would attribute to Eden, and I think it is in a location that some legends have identified as a possible location for Eden. Or Atlantis, or Shambala, or any number of mystical paradises. It's not as important to identify it exactly, but to understand the analogy: The O6 were exiled from "Eden". They were tricked into exile by Ben. Will they find redemption?

Curiously, in Paradise Lost, it seems like God does an awful lot of sending angels as messengers and watchers over the activity there. It's almost as if God can't or won't see into Eden. I'm not enough of a Milton expert to comment on that, just an observation.

Curiously, in Paradise Lost, it seems like God does an awful lot of sending angels as messengers and watchers over the activity there. It's almost as if God can't or won't see into Eden. I'm not enough of a Milton expert to comment on that, just an observation.I'm possibly the most Biblically-illiterate person around the Fuselage, but doesn't God say that he/she doesn't interfere with humanity's decisions? Does sending angels in to kind of run "interference" count?

But, like HV said, I'm sure that all of the symbolism isn't necessarily meant to be taken literally. If Ben is devil-like or fallen angel-like and he knows what goes on on the Island, but the people (and I use that term loosely) that oppose him that are off of the Island can't see the Island or get to it before Desmond's activities, then maybe those people are considered the proverbial Good Guys and are somewhat represented in his "God can't see the Island!" statement?

I was thinking about the relationship between Alpert persuading Ben to kill his father and Ben persuading Locke to kill his father and, of course, Locke persuading Sawyer to kill Cooper. Is it a kind of trick to get someone to become a Fallen Angel of sorts? In that way, is Jack lucky that Locke's gun didn't have bullets in it?

From an analysis (http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/paradiselost/themes.html) of Paradise Lost:

In essence, Paradise Lost presents two moral paths that one can take after disobedience: the downward spiral of increasing sin and degradation, represented by Satan, and the road to redemption, represented by Adam and Eve.

One of the analogies that I've cited before is the spontaneous creation of mirror-pair particles that happen at the event horizon of a black hole. One is subject to the "downward spiral" and is drawn inexorably into the black hole, while the other takes the "road to redemption" and escapes.

Among the analogies for the island, I've talked about it being like the "surface" or event horizon of a black hole, a place where time stands still (from the perspective of an outside viewer), a place of spontaneous creation, a place of mirror phenomena. And perhaps a place to choose which "moral path" you will pursue. A place to start over, with a tabula rasa.

HV: Are you familiar with the Book of Job? The underlying premise is a cosmic bet between God and the Accuser (in some translations, Satan) over Job's reaction to a severe test of his faith. There's something about that story that I intuitively feel fits with this theory. If you haven't read Job, and can find the translation by a guy named Stephen Mitchell, I highly recommend it. Mitchell omits several later additions to the text that distort its underlying message, which is quite profound. Anyone who has dealt with inexplicable tragedy can identify with Job's anguish over why good things would happen to such a good person...

Did Hanso and the DeGroots make some kind of a bet with each other over the fate with humanity? With Jacob? Anyway, great stuff!

Did Hanso and the DeGroots make some kind of a bet with each other over the fate with humanity? With Jacob? Anyway, great stuff!

Thanks, BM! Sounds like as good a place as any to start looking for the motivation for this whole setup.

My thinking right now, which isn't terribly insightful or new, is that the conflict is between the fate that Valenzetti calculated as unavoidable, and the free will that God seemed to want humanity to have (in the face of fate). Given that, I'm thinking that Hanso was searching for the loophole, the felix culpa or “happy fault” originally associated with the fall of humanity. In Paradise Lost, Adam figures that the fall allows God to demonstrate grace and love by merely exiling humanity from the Garden.

In LOST, maybe the Hanso Foundation was searching for the contemporary version of that? It seems like their experiences on the island (that is with metaphorical death) have opened the eyes of the Losties to the fact that they need others to be happy. That it is the love and companionship of others that make our lives complete.

The pastor at my church, in a recent sermon, asked "why do we go to church?" The answer was "to get outside ourselves." Reaching beyond yourself has an element of risk to it, but the rewards: friendship, love, support, are all so wonderful, how can we not reach beyond ourselves? And if there is a point to being, I think a good candidate for it is to "love one another".

It is amazing how much pain and suffering can be overcome when we show compassion. In the context of the Indra's Net analogy, if one shows love for another, you show love for all. Surrounded by your friends, you can never be LOST.

Big Picture: Ben is Satan.

Bigger Picture: It's part of the design. Ben manipulates the Lostaways by exploiting their own fears and foibles repeatedly so that, eventually, they will realize that it is their own fears and foibles which imprison them. Yes, their freedom means they will be expelled from the garden, but it also means that their lives will potentially flourish when they are steered by their own choices.

Gotta hate Ben. But ultimately he may be doing the work of the "good guys" after all.

But what does Ben/Satan get out of the Losties devloping better lives?

hv,
Well, Sayid did say that the day he trusted Ben would be the day he'd sold his Soul.

Big Picture: Ben is Satan.

Bigger Picture: It's part of the design. Ben manipulates the Lostaways by exploiting their own fears and foibles repeatedly so that, eventually, they will realize that it is their own fears and foibles which imprison them. Yes, their freedom means they will be expelled from the garden, but it also means that their lives will potentially flourish when they are steered by their own choices.

Gotta hate Ben. But ultimately he may be doing the work of the "good guys" after all.


love this frckin thread....

well self-admittedly BEN can convince people to do what he wants them to do cuz he is just good at hit...

"The Devil will find work for Idle hands to do"

But what does Ben/Satan get out of the Losties devloping better lives?

He "gets" the pleasure of their paying attention to him while he manipulates them. He "gets" the possibility that, this time, he may get just the right combo of people kicked out of Eden that will lead to the failure of his Opponent's master plan.

It's been a long time since Ben has had a "worthy" opponent.
100%
hv,
Well, Sayid did say that the day he trusted Ben would be the day he'd sold his Soul.

Yeah, Luc. I find myself doubting the analysis when we're given quotes like that. It almost seems too obvious. But I think the reveal will be that despite all his nefarious intentions, Ben in the end will know that his Opponent is too good a player. As a master, Ben will smile in admiration when he is checkmated yet again. But, he'll keep trying until the bitter end.

"The Devil will find work for Idle hands to do"

Thanks, Simplist. And while they're "working", they're usually not thinking... Makes 'em easier marks.

Every dog has his day.

hearingvoices >
Yeah, Luc. I find myself doubting the analysis when we're given quotes like that. It almost seems too obvious.


I know what you mean, but I think that's going to start to become more common over the course of this Season - big, blatant clues. We've become so good at clue-hunting that we find clues that the Writers didn't even know about ( :biggrin: ) and now things as obvious as Sayid's comment make us suspicious.

Maybe Sayid was wrong about Ben when he made his comment. Maybe, in working for Ben, Sayid is finding his soul.

HV: Thanks for starting this thread. I think it's an important one.

For some time, I've thought that the most likely source of the title of the show was a play on Paradise Lost and Lost Horizon -- while the writers are influenced by many works of literature and film, those two seem to me the two most likely "primary" sources.

I'm completely on board with the metaphorical analogies to Paradise Lost, and to the themes of free will ("Don't tell me what I can't do!"), redemption, temptation, fate, etc. They play a major role on Lost and form the basis of the primary conflicts.

But I'd like to focus for a moment on something that's been mentioned in passing on this thread but may deserve lingering over a bit: the possibility that the island is the "real", historical Garden of Eden. I'm not talking about a manmade Garden meant to recreate the former paradise, but rather the real, biblical place. I raise this only because I get the sense that Damon and Carlton might like the idea of a secret that's tied to such a deep piece of our cultural past.

So, how might this work, what are the clues? Much of this has been discussed in earlier threads, so I'm just trying to pull it together. First, we have the odd nature of the island itself, which is nearly impossible to find and to reach, has a strange "relationship" with Time as we know it, and may have ancient monuments of uncertain origin. Plus, it does have the appearances of an island paradise, notwithstanding the DHARMA structures that serve to debase its appearance somewhat.

We also have the Adam and Eve bodies. While I tend to think they will be explained by some type of time-travel episode involving our characters, it's also possible that they are the real A & E, and that the caves are outside the perimeter of the original Garden.

We have Cerberus, who in Greek mythology guarded the gates to Hell. And the Swan hatch countdown hieroglyphics, which spelled Underworld or something like that.

We have people who may not age normally (the tree of life), and we have Ben's magic box of the imagination (the tree of knowledge?).

We have a spirit-like being (Jacob) with apparent enormous power, who may be "held" captive on the island. Could it be the literal Satan from the biblical stories, or one of his minions? If so, could Ben and the Others be working (possibly unwittingly, if they do not realize his nature) to ultimately free him for release into the larger world, where he will bring about the end of days? (Just had a thought: what if the gray ash around Jacob's cabin isn't to contain him, but is the remnants of whatever containment field had been in place before the hatch imploded?).

I've speculated before that the "entity" that inhabits the island was something akin to a tribal god, and that in the past victims were sacrificed to that god on the island, and that their collective consciousness defined that entity's consciousness. These would have been somewhat primitive individuals for centuries, but with the coming of Magnus Hansoand later DHARMA, and their knowledge of technology and the wider world, the entity would have no choice but to become something else. Of course, the balance of good vs. evil might make a difference too in what that entity becomes. This could all still fit into a "lost paradise" and fallen angel scenario, and I even think TPTB could weave in enough science to try to make it all readable on two levels -- the mystical or theological and the scientific. I don't even think they have to resort to aliens to explain a conscious entity that predates DHARMA: it could be explained by this "remnant" of the ancient world carrying with it an ancient consciousness of a sort that no longer exists.

OK, this post is long enough for now, and HV, hope it doesn't seem like threadjacking because I know your thoughts are more on the allegorical and thematic side rather than literal. But I could easily see TPTB working from both angles on this.

Very nice HV.
Simple and Elegant.
Down right beautiful.
cheers.





"dude, you got some Arzt on you"

I know your thoughts are more on the allegorical and thematic side rather than literal. But I could easily see TPTB working from both angles on this.

Thanks Tramp. Don't worry about the appearance of threadjacking. If people are making posts like yours in threads that means they're thinking about the stuff. And that's why I'm here, for dialog on ideas.

I wouldn't have any problems with it being the actual Garden. It's a cool idea, and having the show give a scientific (or pseudo-scientific) explanation for the Garden would be, I fell, very rewarding. However, things work on so many levels in LOST that the evidence would have to be pretty concrete to get me personally to fully buy it. If it takes six years to reveal that evidence, I'm OK with that. ;)

Very nice HV.
Simple and Elegant.
Down right beautiful.
cheers.

Thanks, starla. I should point out that most of the ideas I post about LOST spring from comments and observations that other people make. It's fun to share.

###

In the context of the conflict with Heaven that Paradise Lost speaks of, I was reading recently about the Tower of Babel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel). Ben's drawer full of passports, suggesting access to the many countries of the world, reminded me that God's reaction to the construction of the tower was recorded in the Book of Genesis:

Genesis 11:8-9 (KJV) as follows:
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

A tenuous connection, but given the theme of conflict with Heaven, is Ben/Satan recruiting for a renewal of that conflict?

The poem concerns the Judeo-Christian story of the Fall of Man; the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose, stated in Book I, is to "justify the ways of God to men" and elucidate the conflict between God's eternal foresight and free will.

That's from the wikipedia page on Milton's Paradise Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_lost).

Found the thread with a search on Paradise Lost, and thought it might be worth a look.

Jacob and the Man-in-Black have this conflict going on. The Man-in-Black tells Jacob he's going to find a way to kill him. And in The Incident (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Incident,_Parts_1_%26_2), it looks like the Man-in-Black found the loophole he needed to make it happen.

He (in the form of John Locke?) tricks a man into killing Jacob. Ben followed Jacob faithfully, but when he finally became "aware" of Jacob, Jacob dissed him. In a fit of rage, Ben killed Jacob. Mission accomplished.

But who's idea was it? Is it a triumph of evil over weak-willed mankind? Or, is it a fulfillment of a necessary sacrifice (Jacob dying to somehow redeem mankind)? Does it prove that free will exists?

"Allah changeth not the condition of a people until they change that which is in their hearts". -- the Qur'an

I wonder if the writers were looking to update Paradise Lost in a way? If God/Allah knows everything and it's predetermined, that is "whatever happened, happened", then where does free will fit? Daniel changed his mind though. He said people were the variables. They could "change that which is in their hearts" as the Qur'an says. Once that happens the "condition of a people" will change.

Is the island a place where people go to "change that which is in their hearts"? Or, can you do that anywhere/anytime in life? The 815ers were hard cases, not likely to change, spiraling out of control. But their experiences on the island changed them for sure.