I'm curious to see what peoples' reactions were to Locke's statement: " All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us." Do you believe this to be correct or not? Why?

I do think his statement is correct. In the long run, I think we will see that Locke is trying to save the world.

I think Locke believes what he is saying, but I'm not sure its entirely true. We know that those who get off eventually want to go back so maybe Locke is right...

I'm sure he believes it.

Does locking up Sawyer in The Black Rock count as "everything" or did Locke leave a few details out?

Whatever Locke does, he does for the Island and ultimately for himself. I'm sure he thinks the Island is a benevolent deity and he doesn't mean any of them harm. He thinks of himself as their savior, just like he wanted to save Eko from being a slave to the button, even though Eko said "No, thanks" and kicked his :censored: out of the hatch.

I thought Locke sounded like a father when he said that. I wasn't too sure on whether I liked it or not. He definitely believes what he's saying, and to be honest, I don't think we've seen even half of Locke yet, there's so much going on in his head that we're doubting him. I have faith in what he does, when he runs off and goes on all his little "missions", he's extremely misunderstood, and he's not one to explain himself in too much detail!

I think Boone would probably disagree with that statement.

I think it's important to note that he says "all" of us. His big picture view of the island and what is going on seems to be right. Of course he has a one track mind and does a lot of things that will benefit himself, but he truly believes in what he is doing now.

To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs.

Locke only cares about himself.

The question, especially with all the different interests that seem to be splitting them right now (Locke, Jack, Ben, the freighter people maybe too), is whether there really is a unifying "all of us". And if so, who does Locke mean?
Because if he implies the survivors as well as the others in that statement, good ol' Locke knows a lot more than he lets on.
I'm convinced that right now, he believes in that statement, though I'm worried that he's overrating his role. Sure, he has that special connection to the island, and we still don't know what Walt told him, but as of the end of last season, Locke certainly didn't know everything there was to know about that island. Otherwise he wouldn't have been os keeon on Ben finally clueing him in.
If he still doesn't really know what the big picture is all about, his actions could have dangerous results.

Hello N00b - welcome to the 'lage :) - I believe he's expressing himself honestly, it's heart on your sleeve stuff. But he'll be a long time waiting for any gratitude, we don't always like what's good for us.

It's the heads that get broken when Locke's cookin' that people get all riled up over Carrots.

what up liplocked, good to be here
yea that definitely makes sense, i just feel that things are becoming more clear to Locke regarding whats going on, and at a pretty rapid pace, meeting Jacob, talking to walt, this stuff is happening over a couple days, hes not going to be able to explain everything to everyone immediately, nor would they be inclined to listen to some babble about the intricacies of jacob or the island at this point, in The Beginning of the End, he didnt try to justify much, just let people that believed him, and believed in him, come with him, because he is starting to see the way, im excited to see why Hurley wishes he went with Jack as it seems that Locke really is right

I'm curious to see what peoples' reactions were to Locke's statement: " All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us." Do you believe this to be correct or not? Why?


I believe in what Locke says.
Locke doesn't just think about himself, he thinks of the group as a whole. He would't have done everything he did if it was only for his own personal gain. He wants to protect everyone the best way that he can. And to him, if that means taking drastic measures, such as killing Naomi, then that is what needs to be done. Locke is only looking out for what's best for everyone.

hey liplocked, good to be aboard

agreed, it is going to be a long time before getting any gratitude, this seems to parallel the same situation ben was in with the losties to begin with, couldnt really tell them what was going on, thinks hes doing the right thing for all, but of course, he had to break some eggs too, now, because of the deaths on the island and interpersonal rivalries and power struggles, no one knows who to trust, hell, ben could be the best person to follow at this point, he does seem to be a little more selfishly motivated than locke though, seeing that he was ok with shooting him because of his communion with jacob, if he really was working for the island and jacob, theres no way he would have done that

I believe Locke is a good man who meant what he said. I believe him.

*He helped Jack get the confidence to become our leader
*He helped Charlie kick drugs
*He helped Boone get over Shannon
*He helped Michael and Walt's situation countless times (getting the dog, saving him from polar bear)
*He helped Shannon move forward with Sayid
*He helped Sawyer confront the boar
^ all in season 1!

He never meant for Boone to get hurt and repeatedly shouted for Boone to get out of the plane. He then even gave a speech about Boone's bravery.

If you really look at it, by hitting the Hatch in 1.19 he saved Desmond from killing himself. If Locke never banged that door asking the Island what else he had to do, the button would have stopped getting pushed. He saved them all then.

He took care of Claire and Aaron in season 2, providing them protection and support. He helped lead the group and searched for answers.

Although he made mistakes, he only wanted to free the survivors from not having to push the button anymore. In Season 3 he went back to save Eko and "clean up his own mess". He only wanted the best.

He gave the "JKS have been taken, and we will bring them home" speech. He became the new leader of sorts.

I personally see nothing wrong with Locke getting Sawyer to kill Cooper. Sawyer's searched his whole life to kill Cooper, and can't rest until he does. When Locke realizes this, he puts them in a room together and lets Sawyer do what must be done. If Sawyer knew Cooper WAS on the Island and Locke didn't tell him you know that would haunt him for the rest of his days.

He knows that leaving the island is a bad idea and they'd all be happier there, so he destroys all means of leaving. As he said, he "risked his life" to tell them their was a traitor in the group, even when he was going with the Others and Natives.

That's how I see it. I believe what he said.

I believe him. He's Locke.

I believe him. He's Locke.

Haha I like the way you think! It's perfectly logical.

When Locke talks about what the island "wants," I think he's literally thinking of a conscious, intelligent island that wants things. And talks to him, through the dreams, visions, and even the apparition of olderWalt. Locke hears the island better than anyone else, not necessarily because he's better at it than everyone but because he's the only one listening.

I don't necessarily think he even knows why he's doing some of the things he does, but he's taking his direction from the island, which is trying to protect itself and has some agenda we don't yet understand.

Personally, I think Locke is more dangerous than he's ever been. Locke has been swinging back and forth between, "completely devout," and "completely desperate." Right now, he's confident due to his most recent communication with the island/Jacob/Walt. But what happens when his faith is tested again? Does someone else have to kill or be killed because he is unwilling to do so?

I don't even think Locke has as much info as Ben does at this point. His conviction and his need to believe in something greater is just so profound that it has given him new vitality. If Locke did know the "big plan," why not at least come out and tell everyone why the island is so special to him? After everything that has happened on the island is someone regaining the ability to walk that outrageous? Rose, Bernard, Jin and Sun all have similar testimonials to the healing power of the island. But Locke can't bring this up because it will only raise questions which he doesn't have to the answers to yet.

The island has thrown John Locke another handful of crumbs and he wants everyone to follow him blindly. That is a very dangerous kind of egocentricity.

"All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us."


That line suited Jack more apporpriately than Locke and would've been the truth had it come from Jack's mouth, but John Locke wouldn't be the first man to believe he'd received the gift of prophecy and began building a following of weak minded inviduals who need something, anything to believe in only to have it all end in some violent tragic manner. Is John Locke truly acting in the best interest of everyone or is he another David Koresh?

While John's desire for a family, belonging, a feeling of making a worthy and appreciated contribution has been a flashback constant... what I've not seen is any need for the kind of adoration

~ I don't believe this :rolleyes: my kid wants pancakes! ~

or obedience one might more readily associate with loony, dictatorial types. Meh. gtg!

Jack gave a similar line rght before he was told he was no longer trusted. which is consistant with jack. he can lead but he lets his own personal drives interfere, he does what he wants, then comes back and says " ok im the leader again ty for saving my spot",,, doesnt work, and the 815ers are pretty well over it, ever since he made plans to leave em all behind.

Locke i think is seeing his destiny unfold and has past the trials and tribulations the island has set before him as testing process. the others seem to accept him, which will likely mean he has to knock off ben cause he wont just whine and sulk giving mantle of power to Locke.

so what we have is 2 deposed leaders more or less,,, Ben and Jack.

Nope, I think Locke's actions have for the most part been pretty selfish, actually. It's like, he's always out there doing what "the island" tells him to do, without even knowing of the consequences. I fail to see how this is in everyone's "best interests". He had no problem blowing up the submarine which would've taken Jack and Juliet off of the island; He had no problem trying to murder Naomi, who was (as far as he knew) going to help them. To me it seems like Locke is only trying to fulfill his "destiny", although he may not know what that is yet. Unless Locke has an absolutely valid reason to believe that getting off the island is going to be a long-term mistake (which we know future Hurley and Jack believe), and that there are going to be benefits of staying, he is NOT acting in the best interest of anyone but himself.

he can lead but he lets his own personal drives interfere, he does what he wants, then comes back and says " ok im the leader again ty for saving my spot",,, doesnt work, and the 815ers are pretty well over it, ever since he made plans to leave em all behind.


What was Jack supposed to do? Say no thank you... I wanna stay on this island that Ive been desperately trying to get away from - just because the rest cant come too? I mean he did all he could for Sawyer and Kate to get them back to safety and after getting off the island I'm sure his intentions were to inform others about the location and getting them all rescued.

Jack is a leader, leaders have to make hard decisions based on what they know... and for all Jack knew it was the only way of getting them rescued at the time.

Locke on the other hand has only made decisions that benefit him and not the others (with minor exceptions) - he even sacrificed Boone just so he would still be able to walk...

I agree with the idea that Locke believes himself when he says that what he has done has been in the best interest of everyone. But I don't think that he sees the effect of what he does clearly. At all. He was convinced that he should stop pushing the button, that it would be in the best interest of everybody, but in the end, it was not really that great of an idea.:) In the series re-cap the narrator even went so far to say that it would have ended in global catastrophe had Desmond not stepped up and turned the key. Even though Locke may not know the scope of just how bad stopping pushing the button was, you'd think that after the explosion, he'd have said to himself, maybe I ought to stop making rash decisions. But obviously, from his point of view, his decisions aren't rash. And even the bad decisions are justified by the fact that he thought he was doing them "in the best interest of all of us."

So, the fact that he has totally bought into his own "best interest" statement makes him a very dangerous man. He can't/doesn't see outside his own box or circumstances, and doesn't consider the repercussions for his actions...he completely trusts his instincts, which haven't always proven to be right...

Although, they haven't always proven to be wrong, either.

I agree with the idea that Locke believes himself when he says that what he has done has been in the best interest of everyone. But I don't think that he sees the effect of what he does clearly. At all.
[...]
So, the fact that he has totally bought into his own "best interest" statement makes him a very dangerous man. He can't/doesn't see outside his own box or circumstances, and doesn't consider the repercussions for his actions...he completely trusts his instincts, which haven't always proven to be right...
Although, they haven't always proven to be wrong, either.
I think that's the core problem Locke has.
He has this communion with the island. It healed him. It healed Rose, too, but unlike her he is desperate to find out the island's secrets. He's aware of his special connection to the island, and what the Others did only supported that. At one point, they seemed ready and willing to practically worship him if he only killed Cooper.
Ben seems scared of him, or at least threatenedin his leadership position.
Of course Locke is convinced that he's doing the right thing, and that he's doing it for the good of everybody. Because how can somebody who is so obviously special and who was so obviously chosen for something special, be wrong?
The only point where he things he was ever wrong was when he doubted the island.
He definitely seems to be a man of faith through and through right now, and I think that makes him more dangerous than ever.

Jack gave a similar line rght before he was told he was no longer trusted. which is consistant with jack. he can lead but he lets his own personal drives interfere, he does what he wants, then comes back and says " ok im the leader again ty for saving my spot",,, doesnt work, and the 815ers are pretty well over it, ever since he made plans to leave em all behind.

Locke i think is seeing his destiny unfold and has past the trials and tribulations the island has set before him as testing process. the others seem to accept him, which will likely mean he has to knock off ben cause he wont just whine and sulk giving mantle of power to Locke.

so what we have is 2 deposed leaders more or less,,, Ben and Jack.

Actually the line was several episodes before when Sawyer was questioning his motives for bringing Juliet back and battling the camp and the line was that he'd spent all of his time as a "hostage" trying to figure out a way to get them all rescued. You'll notice though when Kate let him know his group of sheep no longer trusted him that he didn't blink an eye because Jack isn't interested in being popular, he's only interested in keeping them all alive.

He does what he wants? You mean like pushing the button? Oh yeah that's right he did that for Locke and oh yeah it was Locke who demanded that everyone stop pushing it when Locke and Locke alone decided it just wasn't fun anymore. Hmmm.....seems to me that it is Locke who is guilty of letting his own personal drives interfere and is doing what he wants with little or no regard to the safety of others.

As for Ben, he owns Locke and most likely will continue to own him.

1. I believe Locke's speech was heartfelt and his manipulation of Hurley's feelings was what he thought was needed to be done.

2. I believe he believes he's the chosen one who is merely protecting everyone. Sometimes he cracks an egg, but oh well... I think he did suffer and regretted Boone's death (like he told him in his vision), but I also believe he'd do it again in a heartbeat if the Island demanded another sacrifice.

3. I believe Locke doesn't "know" anything about the Island, he knows it cured his paralysis and thinks this is the answer to his quest for a destiny. His salvation. I find his backstory heartwrenching and I understand where it's coming from, but his carelessness with other people (they're not eggs after all) lives makes it self-serving and dangerous. He's a man in a desperate search to understand the mysteries of an entity that requires proof of faith and human sacrifices.

I hadn't really considered this until a friend pointed it out to me, but just because the Island doesn't like and didn't cure Ben, it doesn't mean Locke is its Chosen One or that its blessing would make Locke special. The Island healed Mikhail as well, several times and Mikhail was by no means a benevolent guy.

It is the Island that's ultimately self-serving and dangerous and the Island is using Locke as a tool. Messianic figures just don't do it for me, I guess, so whenever there's talk of blindly following Locke to his wonderful destinty, I feel like pulling a William Wallace and yelling: FREEEEEEEEDOM at the top of my lungs. :biggrin:

Dictators don't let people do what they want to do (in a nutshell), and they always say they are doing it for the greater good, to improve everyone's lives, etc. etc. (Believe me, where I live, I hear the rhetoric from our own president every single day). Let's look at the following:

Did Sayid and the rest of the Losties want to triangulate a signal to contact the outside world? Yes. Did Locke allow that? No
Did Boone want to die because the island demanded it? No. Did Locke allow Boone to live? No
Did Sayid want to use The Flame to communicate with the rest of the world? Yes. Did Locke allow Sayid to use it? No.
Did Jack and Juliet want to leave the island in the submarine? Yes. Did Locke allow them to go? No.
Did Walt, the Special child, want Locke to open the hatch? No. Did Locke leave the hatch alone? No
Did Eko want to continue to push the button? Yes. Did Locke allow Eko to continue? NoI could go on, but I think those are the most representative ones. And the worst part is, he doesn't even feel he has to explain himself to anyone. Unlike my autocratic president, he doesn't even try to justify his actions with an explanation.

If someone blew up your house and came over and told you: "I did it for your own good, the tree across the street spoke to me and told me I had to do it, I'm only trying to save you", what would you say? As viewers we see the bigger picture, but if we were redshirts, I guarantee you things would look very, very differently.

I would say that Locke firmly believes he's acting for the greater good, but I don't think he knows or fully understands what he's dealing with here. I think there are many forces at work on the island, some good and some evil, and I don't think Locke knows which one is talking to him in a particular situation.

If protecting the island's location is so important, why was Locke "told" he had to stop pushing the button? We all know the SWAN's implosion made the island visible to everyone, not only Penny, has anyone stopped to think who else got a fix on the location and if everyone who did is a "good" guy?

Going on this same vein, the computer in the Flame tells Locke to enter 77 if the Hostiles have invaded the station. It's very clear that such an action is an alert mechanism, it's very clear that such an action will result in a defense reaction, otherwise, the warning option wouldn't be in the computer menu. Locke enters 77 anyway, who did he alert? Who was informed that The Flame was compromised? Does anyone really believe that entering 77 didn't alert someone in the outside world that the island was compromised?

Personally, I think Locke himself brought the Freighties to the island by entering 77. That's why Naomi was trying to locate it. That's why there's a Freighter 80 miles off shore. Locke warned them that something was going on on the island and focused someone's attention on it.

I believe that Locke's desire for destiny is being manipulated by the different forces on the island and he doesn't really understand them fully. Sometimes he'll do the bidding of the "good" forces, other times he's been manipulated by "evil" forces, that's why he's made so many mistakes.

And is anyone else out there who thinks that obeying an entity that demands a human sacrifice such as Boone, is a bad idea? Think about it. If a presidential candidate came to you and said, I need you to sacrifice a friend of yours so that I can give you salvation, would you blindly follow?

I love how crazy Locke is, I think it makes for very compelling TV, and TOQ is one of the best actors around, but let's separate fandom from logic. If I were stuck on that island, I'd want off. Screw the mysteries and destiny, let me get back to my comfy home and build my own destiny, thank you very much.

The only point where he things he was ever wrong was when he doubted the island.
He definitely seems to be a man of faith through and through right now, and I think that makes him more dangerous than ever.

These two statements seem to directly contradict each other. If Locke was only wrong when he doubted the island, if he only put everyone in danger when he lost his faith, then wouldn't he be certainly right, now that he has faith?

Apparently getting off the island like Jack and Hurley is NOT in the best interests of everyone. Charlie even said "They need you, Hugo" over and over again. Getting back to the island is in everyone's best interests.

I find it funny that people are perfectly okay with the survivors blindly following Jack the wonderful leader like sheep, but not Locke who has a communion with the island. Jack is vehemenently and aggressively closed-minded about anything to do with the unique circumstances of the island, even when he's experienced a strange thing or two, and it apparently doesn't serve him well. Or anyone else, in the long run.

Personally, I think Locke himself brought the Freighties to the island by entering 77. That's why Naomi was trying to locate it. That's why there's a Freighter 80 miles off shore. Locke warned them that something was going on on the island and focused someone's attention on it.

Very intriguing.........I like this idea. I know this thread probably isn't the place to discuss this, but what would be the explanation for Naomi having Desmond's and Penny's picture? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to punch holes in the theory, I really do like it, I just want to see what the possible reason for Naomi having the picture is.

I believe that Locke's desire for destiny is being manipulated by the different forces on the island and he doesn't really understand them fully. Sometimes he'll do the bidding of the "good" forces, other times he's been manipulated by "evil" forces, that's why he's made so many mistakes.

Completely agree with you on this!

I'm curious to see what peoples' reactions were to Locke's statement: " All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us." Do you believe this to be correct or not? Why?

I think that Locke believes it to be true. However, I don't necesseraly believe that to be true he doesn't think things thouroughly he acts on impulse and to be a leader you have to be able to see all sides and not be so impulsive. Locke has done some good things but he has also done some not very good things and it's one of the reasons I believe that If he didn't act so impulsively (his impulsive decisions are the ones that haven't turned out so well) then I would be more incline to believe that statement to be true.

I think that all you have to do is look at Jack at the end of TTLG and Hurley in this episode to get your answer...they both decide that they should go back. They both realize that they were wrong to leave...making Locke right.

Basically, this is what Locke has said all along. "Jack, you're not supposed to make that call...". Somewhere along the way, Hurley decides to leave Locke's camp (I guess since he leaves the island) and realizes that was a bad move.

I posted this in another theory long ago but I have always felt that Locke knows more than he lets on. I don't know if it is some flashback like Desmond or visions that come to him...how it happens, I don't know, but I believe that he knows what's going to happen to some extent.

Now that he can communicate with Jacob, the sky's the limit.

So yes...to answer your question, I do believe that when this show is over, we will sit back and say "Locke was right all along."

Excellent points, CrazyLatin.

Has anyone noticed the similarity between Locke's speech here and Ben's conversation with Mikhail in TTLG where he basically manipulates Mikhail into being his hit man again:


Ben: You have to understand. Everything I did, I did for the island.
Mikhail: The island told you it was necessary for you to jam your own people?
Ben: Yes it did. You've always been a loyalist, Mikhail. Now I'm asking you to trust me...to trust Jacob who told me to do this.


Ben uses the "spirit" of the Island and of Jacob to manipulate and control his people, a people who seem to have a blind faith in the mysterious figure of Jacob. A figure who conveniently, only is seen and heard by Ben. All they need now is cyanide Kool-Aid.

Locke feels like he's found Christmastown with this group of Others and their belief in the island--yet he feels he himself has a stronger connection to the Island than Ben and his people. Remember the conversation over chicken in Ben's bungalow?
Locke now feels the exaltation of being the heir apparent. He's using everything he can to fulfill his perceived destiny, and if people get sacrificed along the way, that's the price for him to find his destiny. I don't believe he ever had the safety or well-being of the Losties as his primary goal. Yes, he hunted boar for the group, but even that had the added attraction of finally being on a real Walkabout, communing with nature.

Yes, he was also an important mentor to several of the Losties in season 1, as someone listed. But he was also out clocking people on the head to prevent contact with the outside world at that time. His goals are at cross purposes with the Losties who want to get off this dangerous island and get home. I'm not sure that putting one's trust in him will be safe for this group in the long run.

Did Boone want to die because the island demanded it? No. Did Locke allow Boone to live? No
That's a great post, and personally I agree with a lot of the statements you made. I just feel the need to butt in on this piece.
It's been a while since I've last seen season 1, and now that I'm back here at the 'Lage I definitely need to do my own rewind. So correct me if I'm wrong.
Of course Boone didn't want to die, neither because the island demanded it nor because of anything else. But I don't quite get the part about Locke not letting him live. I only have a hazy recollection of the episode, but did Locke in any way know that Boone was going to die if he entered the plane? Locke couldn't do it himself because his legs were getting weaker. And didn't he shout for Boone to get out, and Boone didn't because he was talking to Bernard on the walkie?
I think this statement about Boone being the sacrifice that the island demanded puts Locke in a worse light than he actually was at the time. I always took that to be more of a justification that Locke was giving himself. Boone died, Locke was there and couldn't help him, he put Boone's death up to fate. Of course it's a doubtful justification in itself, and it shows a certain degree of indifference on Locke's part about Boone's death. But being indifferent to a death is a whole other league than causing a death. And as far as I remember, Locke didn't cause Boone's death.
So much about making a short remark ;) That said, I still agree with everything else you pointed out in your post about Locke.

These two statements seem to directly contradict each other. If Locke was only wrong when he doubted the island, if he only put everyone in danger when he lost his faith, then wouldn't he be certainly right, now that he has faith?
[...]
I find it funny that people are perfectly okay with the survivors blindly following Jack the wonderful leader like sheep, but not Locke who has a communion with the island. Jack is vehemenently and aggressively closed-minded about anything to do with the unique circumstances of the island, even when he's experienced a strange thing or two, and it apparently doesn't serve him well. Or anyone else, in the long run.
I didn't mean it that way. I wasn't saying that Locke was only wrong when he doubted the island, I was speaking from his point of view.
From where Locke stands now, at the start of season 4 looking back, the only time he thinks he was wrong was when he started doubting the island. When he started doubting his faith and ended up locking himself in the hatch to not push the button. That's what I meant, sorry if I was unclear. From his point of view, now that he has found his faith again and thinks he knows what the island wants from him, of course he thinks he is right, and that he's doing the right thing.
The thing about people following Jack - I am one of those who is all right with that because I can understand the reasoning behind it. As a viewer I know that Jack is going to end up in a bad place, and that this might have to do with a decision he is about to make right now, in the next few episodes, and I might not decide to blindly follow him.
But as a redshirt, as somebody for whom Jack was the trusted leader over the past months, the one who certainly wasn't always right, but who at least always tried to do the right thing, I think I'd follow him blindly. Because yes, Jack shows no interest in exploring the island's mysteries even though he encountered them personally. But if I was one of the other survivors, I don't know if I'd want that, either.

I love how crazy Locke is, I think it makes for very compelling TV, and TOQ is one of the best actors around, but let's separate fandom from logic. If I were stuck on that island, I'd want off. Screw the mysteries and destiny, let me get back to my comfy home and build my own destiny, thank you very much.

Bingo. In hindsight, the audience knows that leaving the island was some kind of a mistake. But to the survivors of flight 815, none of this makes any sense. Ben and the Hostiles, save Juliet, have divulged virtually zero information on what the island is and why everyone should stay. Locke has been equally tight-lipped about why he wants to stay, save his confessions to Boone, Rose and Sawyer.

Now much of this secrecy is a writing-device within the show itself, but some of it is just downright stubbornness. At least I understand why the Hostiles, or Ben, don't divulge their state secrets. They don't view any of the survivors as "worthy," to be on the island in the first place. I can at least respect that kind of smugness. These are people who have devoted the better part of their lives to this cause and they're not just going to spill the beans to complete strangers.

What's Locke's excuse? It's like Michael said in the Missing Pieces mobisode to Dr. Arzt, "Everybody's got a sob story." (paraphrasing) Granted, Locke's, story is extraordinary and compelling but that doesn't make him a leader. He doesn't have the ability to communicate with the people that he wants to save/lead and ultimately I don't think he cares enough about them to make the effort. He manipulates Hurley into conveying a sentiment that he cannot in order to attain this messianic status the "island," has projected onto him.

It was the same situation with Sawyer killing his father. Locke desperately wanted to be seen as the "special" person that the Other thought he was, but he could not actually become that person. So after a little manipulation by Richard, Locke then manipulates Sawyer into killing his father. Island manipulates Locke again with a vision of Walt and then Locke manipulates Hurley by playing on his feelings toward Charlie. Locke is definitely on his "own path," I just don't think he has any clue where it leads or why he is following it.

Apparently getting off the island like Jack and Hurley is NOT in the best interests of everyone. Charlie even said "They need you, Hugo" over and over again. Getting back to the island is in everyone's best interests.

Yeah, but Hurley thinks it was not wise to follow Locke either. He says to Jack he should have stayed with Jack, so what went down under Locke's leadership?

Also, the fact that Hurley, who decided to go with Locke got off the island seems to indicate that getting off the island is not a consequence of who you picked in the first place.

I find it funny that people are perfectly okay with the survivors blindly following Jack the wonderful leader like sheep, but not Locke who has a communion with the island. Jack is vehemenently and aggressively closed-minded about anything to do with the unique circumstances of the island, even when he's experienced a strange thing or two, and it apparently doesn't serve him well. Or anyone else, in the long run.

So, let's say you are crossing a street, and this dude comes over and pushes you out of the path of a truck, he then tells you he did this because he had a vision. He is in contact with a higher power that told him you'd be run over by the truck, so, he came to save you. Would you believe him? or would you think, even in a little corner of your mind, that the guy was simply more observant than you were and saw the truck coming before you did?

The fact is that we, the viewers, believe that Locke has a connection with the island because we have seen it on the screen. No one else has seen this. Not a single one of the survivors has seen Locke's communion with the island. It would be completely illogical for everyone to believe him.

The average Lostie (redshirt) has spent most of his/her time on the beach. He or she only knows that there's something weird in the jungle, that it appears there were a group of scientist that built research stations on the island, that there are polar bears running around, and that there's a group of people who are fond of kidnapping the beach residents. Most likely they haven't had any visions. To a rational person, Locke's action would seem the result of an insane brain at work.

It doesn't help that he has never bothered to explain his actions.

Very intriguing.........I like this idea. I know this thread probably isn't the place to discuss this, but what would be the explanation for Naomi having Desmond's and Penny's picture? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to punch holes in the theory, I really do like it, I just want to see what the possible reason for Naomi having the picture is.

The theory is (and I think Cardie was the first proponent) that after the Purge Ben fooled the DI (or whatever powerful organizations were funding the DI) into believing that everything was fine and dandy in the tropical paradise. He falsified data to make them believe the experiments continued, made them believe the DI had triumphed over the Hostiles and took advantage of the resources the DI provided.

That's how he got to use Mittelos Bioscience facilities, recruited people for his special projects, continued to receive DHARMA food drops, and was able to request help to find out information about the passengers on 815 (Mikhail alone couldn't have found out all the information on everyone that survived). Ben had the capability to see the SWAN (from the Pearl's monitors), but his knowledge of that station was limited (as stated by TPTB), so he never interfered. He was able though to aks for information on Desmond, and he probably told them Desmond had arrived on the island and was working with Kelvin. The people providing information to Ben obviously know who else is on the island.

Alarm # 1 probably came from Ben's own camp; we have seen signs of dissention: Juliet says some people wanted a change, Richard himself conspires against Ben by giving Locke Sawyer's file. So, it is possible that someone could have contacted the DI (or its backers) to tell them Ben was doing crazy things. When the SWAN went kaput, the backers of the DI received alarm #2. Most likely Ben had a chat with them, to reassure them. Juliet said Ben was blocking all signals, except their own from TTLG. But, it stands to reason, these guys could have remained suspicious, then they received alarm #3 when Locke entered 77. And that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ben wasn't talking to them, he refused to let the island be visible again (at least to them, the ones financing all the operations and sending them food), he was probably denying them access under one of his ruses, and the secret "danger" code had been pushed (77)

So, they sent the Freighter to the general vecinity of the island and provided them with the coordinates to try to find it. That's why Naomi was doing a fly over. Given that they didn't know who they were going to run into when (and if) they landed. They probably gathered all the data they had on the people that were on the island. Including Desmond. If, as many believe, Charles Widmore was one of the backers of the DI, getting a copy of Penny's bedside table picture would have been easy as pie.

I find it funny that people are perfectly okay with the survivors blindly following Jack the wonderful leader like sheep, but not Locke who has a communion with the island. Jack is vehemenently and aggressively closed-minded about anything to do with the unique circumstances of the island, even when he's experienced a strange thing or two, and it apparently doesn't serve him well. Or anyone else, in the long run.

Interesting, because Locke is the one who hasn't given anyone any explanation for his actions, as he says himself in TBOTE, so it would appear the sheep would be the ones following Locke.

The people following Jack aren't going blindly, they know what the situation is, Jack isn't hiding anything from them. Jack represents rescue, a way off the crazy island so therefore the people who want to go home, follow Jack, plain and simple. I wouldn't care about the unique property of the island, I would want to go home to my real life and my family. I wouldn't give it all up for some "special" island. So Jack, I'm right behind you, let's get off this crazy rock!

Of course Boone didn't want to die, neither because the island demanded it nor because of anything else. But I don't quite get the part about Locke not letting him live. I only have a hazy recollection of the episode, but did Locke in any way know that Boone was going to die if he entered the plane? Locke couldn't do it himself because his legs were getting weaker. And didn't he shout for Boone to get out, and Boone didn't because he was talking to Bernard on the walkie?

Locke had visions of Boone covered in blood before he went searching for the plane. It is implied in the episode that he loses the use of his legs because he doesn't go to the plane (presumably because he didn't want Boone to die), but then when he decides to follow his mother's vision, he starts to regain his legs.

He had a vision of Boone covered in blood shortly before he asked Boone to climb to the plane. So, it is implied that he knew Boone was going to die. He tried to avoid it by yelling for Boone to get out, but when he says "Boone was a sacrifice the island demanded", he's confirming, he'd do it again, if the island so asked him.

He might feel bad that Boone died, he might have wanted to avoid it, but, in the end, he did what he thought the island was asking him to do, with full knowledge that Boone would, at the very least, end up covered in blood (nothing too promising about that), and he thinks that since the island asked him for this "sacrifice", he was right in letting that happen.

Interesting, because Locke is the one who hasn't given anyone any explanation for his actions, as he says himself in TBOTE, so it would appear the sheep would be the ones following Locke.

As a matter of fact, Jack doesn't even ask anyone to follow him. Locke does. Jack just stands there and watches them go with Locke. He doesn't say "Don't follow him, he's crazy, he'll get you killed", he doesn't say: "Stay with me and I'll keep you safe". He lets them all make their own choice, he doesn't use the death of another castaway for emotional manipulations, he doesn't threaten them with their own death of they don't follow him.

He just stands there, silently, under the rain, and watches them walk away.

I'm with Locke all the way to the end.

Just to be the devil's advocate here, I have to wonder if Locke is just being groomed as the new "pawn" by the Island. His recent statements and his blind faith does make him seem like Mikhail in some respects. But on the other hand, I think we are going to find that Locke has been quite busy off-camera and has discovered things we aren't aware of yet.

Personally, I think Locke is more dangerous than he's ever been. Locke has been swinging back and forth between, "completely devout," and "completely desperate." Right now, he's confident due to his most recent communication with the island/Jacob/Walt. But what happens when his faith is tested again? Does someone else have to kill or be killed because he is unwilling to do so?

I don't even think Locke has as much info as Ben does at this point. His conviction and his need to believe in something greater is just so profound that it has given him new vitality. If Locke did know the "big plan," why not at least come out and tell everyone why the island is so special to him? After everything that has happened on the island is someone regaining the ability to walk that outrageous? Rose, Bernard, Jin and Sun all have similar testimonials to the healing power of the island. But Locke can't bring this up because it will only raise questions which he doesn't have to the answers to yet.

The island has thrown John Locke another handful of crumbs and he wants everyone to follow him blindly. That is a very dangerous kind of egocentricity.

I think you make a great point on the fact that Locke has "the island" in his best interests, not the losties. I believe that if he has to get his faith tested again, he wouldn't think twice about sacrificing someone to the island again.

Just to be the devil's advocate here, I have to wonder if Locke is just being groomed as the new "pawn" by the Island. His recent statements and his blind faith does make him seem like Mikhail in some respects. But on the other hand, I think we are going to find that Locke has been quite busy off-camera and has discovered things we aren't aware of yet.

It's indeed very interesting. I've often wondered if the island is Locke's new Cooper, manipulating him and tempeting him with those things he deeply desires, just so that he does what the island wants. Only the island is asking for bigger things: Cooper wanted a kidney, the island wants Boone...

Claudia815 pointed out that it would be such a depressing story for him and that it would be a repetition of his FB stories, where he's always manipulated by people that pretend to give him a family and a place of importance in that family. Such a story wouldn't have any redemption path for John, and might turn out to be simplistic; which is what got me thinking that there might be conflicting forces guiding Locke now.

Some of those forces are making him do the "right" things, but the other forces are pushing him the "wrong" way, so, he needs figure out exactly what is at work before he fulfills his destiny.

Of course Boone didn't want to die, neither because the island demanded it nor because of anything else. But I don't quite get the part about Locke not letting him live. And as far as I remember, Locke didn't cause Boone's death.

Locke did not set out to hurt or kill Boone. In that regard, he is innocent. Locke's guilt and complicity in Boone's death comes when he delivers Boone's body to Jack. Locke tells Jack that Boone fell, which is a lie. Boone was crushed under a plane. Now Jack has absolutely no means of examining Boone's injuries internally. There are no x-rays, MRIs, equipment, or even a BP cuff to monitor blood pressure. He has to go by Locke's eye witness account, and Locke doesn't stick around to explain. He dumps Boone after telling Jack he fell and then splits. Why is that a problem? Jack begins to treat Boone's injuries based on Locke's word. He is looking for "breaking" injuries: broken ribs, concussion, other broken bones. Jack is not looking for "crushing" injuries such as crushed arteries, veins, and capillaries. While Jack wastes times setting legs and feeling around for other broken bones, blood is pouring into Boone's crushed leg. He's bleeding to death. Had Jack known earlier how Boone REALLY was injured, he may have immediately placed a tourniquet around Boone's leg. Instead, Boone slowly bleeds to death. By the time Boone regained consciousness long enough to tell Jack what happened to him, it was too late. Jack desperately tried to regroup, pouring his own blood into Boone to offset the loss, but there was no way to replace that blood loss. This is why Jack wanted to amputate the leg. If he could remove the leg, the veins would collapse, the blood loss would stop, etc. However, at that point, Boone had lost too much blood. He was doomed, and Jack knew it.

THAT is why Jack went into such a rage at Locke later on, and THAT is why Jack called him a liar. He was right; Locke was a liar. Locke's lie did contribute to Boone's demise. Could he have been saved? We'll never know, but Boone's death is what caused the rift between Jack and Locke.


With regard to the thread, I believe Locke THINKS he is acting in the best interests of the Losties, but in reality, he is serving his own agenda. Locke is the person who is being followed blindly, not Jack. What exactly does anyone know about what Locke knows? Do the majority know about his paralysis? Less than a handful know. Does anyone know about the cabin? Jacob? seeing Walt? hearing voices? etc? Locke expects people to follow him on blind faith, and the fact that they do is scary.

Charlie's words "Not Penny's Boat," does not imply anything other than "it's not Penny's Boat." How is that a life and death warning? It's still a boat, and if I were stuck on a monster-killing, Other kidnapping, crazy Unabomber in a shack island, I would get on that boat and take my chances with the crew. Heck, you can always attempt to overpower the crew, but what exactly can you do in Othersville?

I think it was well stated that Jack has not demonstrated a dictator "You must follow-me, I'm the leader" mentality at all. Jack said absolutely nothing as the other Losties departed. No rage, no indignation, no "Come back!" They made their decision, and he accepted it. Jack is pig-headed. There's no doubt about it. But he is also completely dedicated to protecting and defending the lives of the Losties. He has proven this time and time again from the moment the plane crashed as he pulled people to safety, to saving Charlie, to trying to find Claire, to trying to save Boone, to trying to get dynamite to blow the hatch to hide the Losties from the Others, to helping Ben after he was shot with an arrow, to pushing a button he had NO belief in but did it anyway because Locke asked him to, to saving Kate and Sawyer and on and on.

Locke is not an evil man, at least I've seen no evidence of it, but he is a man motivated by his own purposes. HIS will is more important than the wishes or well being of the Losties, and I think there is a very real reason why Hurley apologizes to Jack in the FF. Just because Jack and Hurley want to return to the island does not imply to me that LOCKE was right. There's still a ton of information that we don't know about yet. For instance, why do Hurley and Jack suddenly believe in an "it?"

Hurley says that he should have gone with Jack, so even if Locke believes he is doing the right thing for all, some of the beneficees of his good acts (like Hurley) do not agree.

Vraye Foi

He had a vision of Boone covered in blood shortly before he asked Boone to climb to the plane. So, it is implied that he knew Boone was going to die.

To Locke, it was a dream, not a vision.
How could he know that every detail in his dream would happen? He saw his mother too, and she didn't just appeared on the island. He probably thought the part with Boone wouldn't take place too.
As for the "he was the sacrifice the island demanded", I believe in Locke when he said all what happened was a chain of events that lead all of them where they are now. I think Boone would die anyway, like Charlie in Desmond's visions, if not in the plane fall, in some other way.

Just to be the devil's advocate here, I have to wonder if Locke is just being groomed as the new "pawn" by the Island. His recent statements and his blind faith does make him seem like Mikhail in some respects. But on the other hand, I think we are going to find that Locke has been quite busy off-camera and has discovered things we aren't aware of yet.

I see him more as a replacement for Ben...not a pawn at all. After all, Richard is the one that recruited Ben, and he has already mentioned the fact that the others are losing faith in Ben (and so is Alpert).

Alpert helped Locke save face by giving him the Cooper=Sawyer info, telling Locke that Ben wanted to embarrass him so his followers didn't think he was "special".

Alpert was visibly upset when Ben told him that he shot him...the camera goes straight to Alperts face after Ben's statement and he is not happy about it. Why else would he care if he didn't have thoughts of Locke replacing Ben.

You also mention that Locke has probably been quite busy off-camera and I agree. I don't think it was coincidence that Locke happened to be near Jacob's shack when he found Hurley. We know Locke by now and there is NO WAY that his curiousity could keep him from going back to Jacob's for more information. Especially when Walt told him that he still had work to do. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't go there right after he spoke to Walt and before he knifed Naomi. I could easily see him saying to Jacob..."What do you want me to help you with?"

I feel that our Losties are there for a reason. And that reason is to take over the chores of the others, who took over for Dharma, who took over for_____, and so on, and so on.

There seems to be a cycle going on here possibly starting with the four-toed ancients that the island civilization needs to be purged and rebuilt. Although the others have not been purged, the Losties have put one hell of a dent in their population in recent days.

I see Locke as the new protection for the island.


Also, one quick note on blind Jack followers...If I know what I know now, I follow Locke. But the key here is that the Losties don't know what we know. I would want to get the hell off of that island at all cost...and I would follow Jack.

Looking at it from their point of view, Locke is a crazy man! (But we know better!)

I'm curious to see what peoples' reactions were to Locke's statement: " All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us." Do you believe this to be correct or not? Why?

He is correct as proven by Jacks desire to get back to the island.

............Basically, this is what Locke has said all along. "Jack, you're not supposed to make that call...". Somewhere along the way, Hurley decides to leave Locke's camp (I guess since he leaves the island) and realizes that was a bad move.................

I


I just wanted to point out that I do not believe Hurley will feel it to be a bad move to leave Locke's company. In fact, he tells Jack in never should have gone with Locke in the first place.

Obviously, something bad will happen to Locke's group and Hurley escapes - therefore it would seem that Hurley will not be leaving Locke's group until disaster strikes.

I'm unsure about Locke, love him though I do, and there are some awesome points here that only cement me here on the fence! Sooo, thanks to all for that.:undecide: :) Will Locke turn out to have been right all along? My gut says yes. But my gut's not very smart sometimes.

I *do* lately get a sense, though, that Locke has seen the future in some way. This line (in answer to Jack saying he didn't believe in fate) was just too specific for me to think otherwise: "Yes you do, Jack. You just don't know it yet."

I just wanted to point out that I do not believe Hurley will feel it to be a bad move to leave Locke's company. In fact, he tells Jack in never should have gone with Locke in the first place.

Obviously, something bad will happen to Locke's group and Hurley escapes - therefore it would seem that Hurley will not be leaving Locke's group until disaster strikes.

Yah, Hurley contradicts himself there...he says he should have stayed with Jack but they have to go back. Haven't figured that out yet.

We know this...

Jack was wrong about leaving the island.
Locke was right about staying.

Hurley wishes he would have stayed with Jack to leave the island.
Hurley thinks they need to go back.

Can't figure that one out no matter how I try.:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: <--------The Confusedianic 6!
100%

I *do* lately get a sense, though, that Locke has seen the future in some way. This line (in answer to Jack saying he didn't believe in fate) was just too specific for me to think otherwise: "Yes you do, Jack. You just don't know it yet."

There are lots of instances where Locke says things like that. The one that you just quoted...just before he finds the hatch with Boone he says "It's going to rain", Boone looks at him like he's crazy and sure enough, a few seconds later...rain.

I can't think of any more of the top of my head other than his visions of Boone that was mentioned by a previous poster...anybody remember any other Locke "visions"?

I believe Locke is telling the truth from his point of view. We viewers are not privy to this information, and only when the final episodes (or thereabouts) of Lost are broadcast will we have enough information to judge Locke's actions. Because some of his actions seem "insane" (to quote Jack), there will be a rush to judgment with insufficient evidence. But we viewers don't know the end game, nor what is at stake in the game.

Personally, I think that viewers' final judgment of Locke will depend a lot upon the nature of the island/island entity. If the island is good, then Locke's actions will be judged in a favorable light. However, if the island is evil, then Locke will have hitched his wagon once again to the wrong influence (as we have seen him do in flashbacks), and Locke will be looked at as a pathetic fool. On the island, Jack might be miffed at Locke for blowing up the sub, but if I remember correctly, we were shown a desperate future Jack screaming about having to go back to the island. Does that give viewers an inkling of where this is headed?

My guess is that Locke will be shown to finally have found something good that he can be a part of. He may even die for this cause. Of course, it would be nice if Locke were to sit down with the Losties and explain everything he knows. But to do that would probably ruin the mystery of Lost, and that's something we viewers have to accept. For that reason, many viewers will continue to judge Locke's actions as incomprehensible and crazy.

I believe Locke is telling the truth from his point of view. We viewers are not privy to this information, and only when the final episodes (or thereabouts) of Lost are broadcast will we have enough information to judge Locke's actions. Because some of his actions seem "insane" (to quote Jack), there will be a rush to judgment with insufficient evidence. But we viewers don't know the end game, nor what is at stake in the game.

Personally, I think that viewers' final judgment of Locke will depend a lot upon the nature of the island/island entity. If the island is good, then Locke's actions will be judged in a favorable light. However, if the island is evil, then Locke will have hitched his wagon once again to the wrong influence (as we have seen him do in flashbacks), and Locke will be looked at as a pathetic fool. On the island, Jack might be miffed at Locke for blowing up the sub, but if I remember correctly, we were shown a desperate future Jack screaming about having to go back to the island. Does that give viewers an inkling of where this is headed?

My guess is that Locke will be shown to finally have found something good that he can be a part of. He may even die for this cause. Of course, it would be nice if Locke were to sit down with the Losties and explain everything he knows. But to do that would probably ruin the mystery of Lost, and that's something we viewers have to accept. For that reason, many viewers will continue to judge Locke's actions as incomprehensible and crazy.

I completely agree with this post.

I always go back to Charlie's statement that he felt that Locke was the person that could save them all. So far, his motives have been questioned, torn apart, undermined. Understandably so, given the lack of information sharing that is a problem with Locke; however, it seems to me that line is one of those lines that the viewers are supposed to remember.

Locke is, in my mind, being set up to be 'the' savior and, though he may not clue us in to his plans, he is doing everything for the best interest of the group.

Of course Boone didn't want to die, neither because the island demanded it nor because of anything else. But I don't quite get the part about Locke not letting him live. I only have a hazy recollection of the episode, but did Locke in any way know that Boone was going to die if he entered the plane? Locke couldn't do it himself because his legs were getting weaker. And didn't he shout for Boone to get out, and Boone didn't because he was talking to Bernard on the walkie?
I think this statement about Boone being the sacrifice that the island demanded puts Locke in a worse light than he actually was at the time. I always took that to be more of a justification that Locke was giving himself. Boone died, Locke was there and couldn't help him, he put Boone's death up to fate. Of course it's a doubtful justification in itself, and it shows a certain degree of indifference on Locke's part about Boone's death. But being indifferent to a death is a whole other league than causing a death. And as far as I remember, Locke didn't cause Boone's death.

The only thing that I have ever had a problem with that Locke has done or said was "Boone was the sacrifice the island demanded". Stab Naomi in the back, drug Boone, let the hatch implode, blow up the Flame and the submarine...no problem. I have always trusted him way more than Jack. I have faith that Locke has a plan. However, that one line bothered me. Locke was not responsible for Boone's death. He was a part of his death, but it was Boone's decision to climb into the plane.

Locke's line about the island demanding Boone's death bothered me for a few reasons: it makes Locke look as though he did not care about Boone's death (when we can clearly see his torment at the end of The Greater Good) and it makes it seem that Boone did not have a choice in his own death. It takes away the power of his death.

It was during Further Instructions that my feeling changed about Boone's death and Locke's statement. If Locke's visions represent reality than Boone is not angry at Locke for his death. Boone does not hold him responsible. People blame Locke for Boone's death in part because he saw a bloody Boone in his dream. Ok, fine. If that vision is held true, then the second vision must be held true as well. You can't pick and choose which vision is seen as true. If one is, both are. The second vision, for me, shows that Boone is okay with what happened to him. Possibly because he knew that he was the sacrifice that the island demanded.

Either way, Locke has demonstrated time and again that he does have a better idea of what is going on than any of the other losties and he does have the best interest for all in his mind.

I believe Locke is telling the truth from his point of view. We viewers are not privy to this information, and only when the final episodes (or thereabouts) of Lost are broadcast will we have enough information to judge Locke's actions. Because some of his actions seem "insane" (to quote Jack), there will be a rush to judgment with insufficient evidence. But we viewers don't know the end game, nor what is at stake in the game.

Personally, I think that viewers' final judgment of Locke will depend a lot upon the nature of the island/island entity. If the island is good, then Locke's actions will be judged in a favorable light. However, if the island is evil, then Locke will have hitched his wagon once again to the wrong influence (as we have seen him do in flashbacks), and Locke will be looked at as a pathetic fool. On the island, Jack might be miffed at Locke for blowing up the sub, but if I remember correctly, we were shown a desperate future Jack screaming about having to go back to the island. Does that give viewers an inkling of where this is headed?

That theory is quite possible, but there is another theory. Who's to say that leaving the island was a mistake at all? Jack does not look upset to be off the island in the latest FF,and Hurley clearly states that being with Locke was a mistake on his part. I'm leaning more towards the idea that leaving the island wasn't a mistake, but that the island wants Jack and Company to come back, and it's going to drive them to the point of madness to get them to return.

Hurley is seeing Charlie who is telling him to return: "They need you." Who's to say it's not the island at work in some way? I'll also bet you dollars to donuts that Jack IS seeing Christian in his FF. I think it's the same type of "visit" Jack gets from his father that Hurley is getting from Charlie with the same message: "You have to go back." That doesn't imply that they were wrong to leave but rather that they are being lured back. They are trying to ignore it and wish it away, but the visions and hauntings will persist. That's my theory.

It was mentioned several times that the island won't let you leave. So, I'm guessing that even if you manage to get off the island, physically, it will find a way to draw you back. Hurley even gave the foreshadowing clue:

"I think it wants us to come back. It's going to do everything it can . . ."

I got the impression Boone was pretty ticked off about being dead - but his personal feelings weren't what his visit were about.

He was on message himself in the sweat lodge - working for the Island ...or whatever.

I got the impression Boone was pretty ticked off about being dead - but his personal feelings weren't what his visit were about.

He was on message himself in the sweat lodge - working for the Island ...or whatever.

I am not saying that he was not angry about being dead. I am saying that I don't think that he was mad at Locke for it. I got the imression that he was more disgusted that Locke was not out looking to put the family "together" yet.

If he was working for the island then he would realize that his death was part of a plan.

This is making my head hurt.

If only we knew what Walt told Locke, it would make Locke's motives so much clearer.

If you click on my sig thread and read my own take on things, you'll get a sense of where I think Locke gets his his latest visions, and why I think he's to be trusted.

In a nutshell, I think Locke has been into the past and the future, and has the same sort of pre-cog abilities Desmond had/s, but on a grander scale. I've been re-watching to see if I can guess when this happened (discharge like Des? before blowing up the sub? both?) but no luck yet...

In any case, I've just never been able to buy the idea that Locke is selfish enough to keep others on the island against their will so HE could stay. It seems inconsistent with his more straightforward actions, even the simple acts like making the whistle to find Vincent but then letting Michael take the credit, making the cradle for Claire, etc.

He's a cagey SOB, to be sure, and he's had his share of naive screw-ups, but I think he's ultimately a person who cares at least as much about others as he does for himself.

I find it funny that people are perfectly okay with the survivors blindly following Jack the wonderful leader like sheep, but not Locke who has a communion with the island. Jack is vehemenently and aggressively closed-minded about anything to do with the unique circumstances of the island, even when he's experienced a strange thing or two, and it apparently doesn't serve him well. Or anyone else, in the long run.

Forgive me for not knowing how to respond to a quote.

I'm glad to hear someone pick on Jack for awhile. To me there is no difference between what motivates Jack and what motivates Locke. They are both on their own little power trips. Just because Jack is the "sensible" one, doesn't mean his motives are more pure. From the day he wandered onto the beach to find the wreckage of the 815, Jack's been running from one disaster to another. It's what gets him high.

Meanwhile, Locke has been posessed by the island's supposed powers to heal ever since he wiggled his toes that day on the beach. It's like he signed his life over to the island. It can do no wrong. So in his mind, if the island wants it, then it is good, for everyone. But he still keeps finding "hatches" to bust into. (I'm guessing that he stopped into to see Jacob again.) The people who say he only cares for himself are only half right. Like Jack, Locke believes that taking care of what's in front of him is in the best interest of everybody.

I'm curious to see what peoples' reactions were to Locke's statement: " All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us." Do you believe this to be correct or not? Why?


When Locke parted ways with Sawyer at the end of " The Brig" I thought that Locke was out for only himself. Now I believe that he really does care about the people on the island. If he didn't care about them he would not have come back for them knowing that some of them were shocked and upset with him. He wanted to offer them a alternate plan for safety. He could have easily been killed by Jack or Sayid if diplomacy did not go in his favor. Locke is a man that is looking at the whole picture

If you click on my sig thread and read my own take on things, you'll get a sense of where I think Locke gets his his latest visions, and why I think he's to be trusted.

In a nutshell, I think Locke has been into the past and the future, and has the same sort of pre-cog abilities Desmond had/s, but on a grander scale. I've been re-watching to see if I can guess when this happened (discharge like Des? before blowing up the sub? both?) but no luck yet...

In any case, I've just never been able to buy the idea that Locke is selfish enough to keep others on the island against their will so HE could stay. It seems inconsistent with his more straightforward actions, even the simple acts like making the whistle to find Vincent but then letting Michael take the credit, making the cradle for Claire, etc.

He's a cagey SOB, to be sure, and he's had his share of naive screw-ups, but I think he's ultimately a person who cares at least as much about others as he does for himself.

Dude...I love this post. up until recently (when I ran out of room and deleted it) I had a quote in my siggy that said "Desmond is not the only one that's been through here before." The main person that I thought had been was Locke.

He just seems to know more than he should have been realistically able to know...even before he met Jacob. I have not read your link yet but I will after I'm through here.

Locke's mother saying that he was Immaculately Conceived has always made me wonder what his real deal is. Could he have been born on island??? Before there was a problem with mothers losing their babies? It would have been in the late 40's early 50's...way before Ben and the Dharma Initiative. Could leaving the island with her baby be what made her crazy...similar to what we see with Hurley and Jack later on????

I don't know but there is something with her comment that always made me wonder what's up. Off to read you theory FUTURE!

Locke saved Jack from a certain death dangling from a cliff in S1 and said "I knew I'd find you here". Locke spent much time trying to get into the hatch.... I paraphrase "this was supposed to work" (when he had a hard time getting the door to open). Locke warned Jack about making the call to the freighter people "you not supposed to do this"

Yeah, he sees the big picture as though he's been there before.

Of course there's THE really big wild card hanging out there... Walt. Other than telling Locke he had work to do, we have no idea what Walt's REAL mission is here. I tend to think it's really important.

We need a to know what the hell happens to Walt... and Vincent too. ;)

Walt flash back or forward please!

:)

BTW we have no reason to think Walt is dead. We know from, Ms. Klugh (sp?) that Walt has been seen in places he wasn't supposed to be.

We need to know about Walt as it would readily explain Locke's actions,

He is correct as proven by Jacks desire to get back to the island.

What does Jack's desire to get back to the island have to do with Locke? Do you know that Locke is not part of the Oceanic 6? Hurley went with Locke and Hurley is part of the 6. You're jumping to conclusions.

I trust Locke. Why? Go back to Season 1, before the Boone incident in "Hearts and Minds"

Jack asks Charlie what he thinks of John Locke.

That man's a freak of nature. Very disturbed. Chances are that he murdered all his mates at the Post Office that day his mum forgot to put a cookie in his lunch tin. That was my first impression, anyway. But then he saved my life...Trust him? No offense, mate ... but if there was one person on this island I'd put my absolute faith in to save us all, it'd be John Locke.

After the Boone incident, Shannon intended to put a fatal bullet wound into Locke, but Sayid came to the rescue. That night, Sayid confronts Locke and tells him why he saved his life.

I did it because I sense you might be our best hope of surviving here. But I don't forgive what you did. And I certainly don't trust you. And now, you're going to take me to the hatch.

These are themes in Season 1 I believe the writers are setting up as a foreshadowing of things to come in Lost. So do I believe what Locke said his actions were in the best interest of the survivors? With Ben Linus' concern that all will be killed, why else would Locke prevent anyone from leaving? Simply because he doesn't want anyone to trace the Freighter to the Island. He wants not only the safety and security of the lostaways, but for the Island.

What does Jack's desire to get back to the island have to do with Locke? Do you know that Locke is not part of the Oceanic 6? Hurley went with Locke and Hurley is part of the 6. You're jumping to conclusions.

It doesn't matter if Locke isn't one of the Oceanic 6:

Jack says he doesn't believe in fate. Locke says "Yes you do, Jack, you just don't know it yet." And then when we see Jack off the island later he says, "We weren't supposed to leave, we have to go back!" So you see John is right-- in the future, Jack DOES believe in fate.

Locke saved Jack from a certain death dangling from a cliff in S1 and said "I knew I'd find you here". Locke spent much time trying to get into the hatch.... I paraphrase "this was supposed to work" (when he had a hard time getting the door to open). Locke warned Jack about making the call to the freighter people "you not supposed to do this"

Yeah, he sees the big picture as though he's been there before.

Of course there's THE really big wild card hanging out there... Walt. Other than telling Locke he had work to do, we have no idea what Walt's REAL mission is here. I tend to think it's really important.

We need a to know what the hell happens to Walt... and Vincent too. ;)

Walt flash back or forward please!

:)

BTW we have no reason to think Walt is dead. We know from, Ms. Klugh (sp?) that Walt has been seen in places he wasn't supposed to be.

We need to know about Walt as it would readily explain Locke's actions,

Thanks for a few other mentions of Locke's "vision". I forgot about those.

You're right, Walt is a huge part of this and when we get his story, there will be much more that we will learn about Locke and why Walt is drawn to him.

What does Jack's desire to get back to the island have to do with Locke? Do you know that Locke is not part of the Oceanic 6? Hurley went with Locke and Hurley is part of the 6. You're jumping to conclusions.

Well, in "The Answers" episode last year, Darlton pretty much made it clear that Locke would die before ever leaving the island.

Although no one knows for sure (except the writers...Damon and Carlton) , it's pretty clear that Locke is not one of the O6...that, I would bet my life on.

Damon and Carlton wouldn't have made it a point to say that if Locke was going to leave the island.

Here's what worries me about Locke: if he ever had to make a decision between me (or any other survivor) and the island, I know he'll always choose the island.

It bothers me that someone would choose an island (magical and mystical as it might be) over a human life. If feels like religious fanaticism, not faith. And it's dangerous.

It makes for awesome TV, there's no denying that, and it gives TOQ so much to work with as an actor, but it's still a dangerous character.

All the references posted do seem to lead to Locke's actions being what was best for the lostie's ultimate well being. The only thing that bothers me is Hurley's being sorry for not sticking to team Jack. Could very well have nothing to do Locke himself, but it does make me wonder.

It's a true statement. Locke and the others appear to be the only ones that may truly understand a part of what the island means. Locke is just starting to see the big picture, and knows how vitally important it is that he and his fellow castaways learn whatever it is that the Island is trying to teach them.

He believes that them, being on this island, is their one last and real chance for salvation. They have but to understand how. In this way, everything that Locke does is in order to further the condition of the people he is with and this might not be seen as directly "helping" them, although it is.

Locke has been seeing the world in which they live in (the island) with more mature and understanding eyes. Not yet seeing the whole big picture, but starting to get glimpses of it. To make an analogy, Locke is the adult or adolescent here and he understands that sometimes he'll have to withhold candy from the children. While the children may see Locke's ways as hurting them, it's only because they don't yet understand how it is really helping them.

"All I did, all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us."

The theory is (and I think Cardie was the first proponent) that after the Purge Ben fooled the DI (or whatever powerful organizations were funding the DI) into believing that everything was fine and dandy in the tropical paradise. He falsified data to make them believe the experiments continued, made them believe the DI had triumphed over the Hostiles and took advantage of the resources the DI provided.


Sorry to quote an old post from this thread. I thought this was a fantastic theory however if you take everything that was said in the original Lost ARG as 100% gospel then we know that Mittelwerk said in the Sri Lanka video "We all know what happened. The Dharma Initative failed".

However this theory certainly would explain the food drops - not just at the swan but the barracks and possibly hydra as well.

This will start out sounding extremely negative about Locke; hear me out. I promise the Lockefans it will end up on a positive and hopeful note, and will show why I really like the character.

My own view on Locke is that he's been completely consistent to his core motivations right from the beginning, but that he's a complex character (possibly the most complex in the storyline) and different aspects of his personality came out, depending on the situations around him.

First and foremost, he's deeply insecure because he has an intense and unsatisfied longing to find validation, meaning and purpose. Secondly, he's very much a mystic and looks outside himself to connect to fate or some higher power to help gain that sense of meaning. Thirdly, he's quite gullible, and is easily persuaded that some New Thing can be the solution to his search, and he'll drop everything to follow it once persuaded. These seem to almost completely explain the man.

His obsession with his father to the point of becoming almost a stalker is part of that search for validation. He so desperately needed that connection that he had no reservation about donating a kidney to someone he hardly knew. His impulsiveness left him frustrated.

He apparently spent a lot of time learning about wilderness survival in preparation for the walkabout. Even though in a wheelchair, this was something to prove his strength and independence. Clearly, an intensely rugged journey that wouldn't be possible even for many who can walk normally was no place for a man in a wheelchair, but he was blind to this. His impulsiveness left him frustrated.

Crashed on the island he found immediate purpose and meaning when his survival skills learned for the walkabout became essential. The fact that he regained the use of his legs at the same time probably made the whole experience an unimaginably beautiful paradise for someone with his mystical outlook. He even managed to gather a couple of "disciples," in the form of Boone & Charlie, who he sought to help. Later on, Charlie was abandoned when he found greater "meaning" in the hatch. Earlier on, his immediate need to have someone check out the plane stuck in the jungle canopy when he was having trouble walking got Boone killed. His impulsiveness left him guilty and frustrated.

Finding the hatch brought on a whole new obsession in his desperate quest for purpose. First he had to find a way to get it open, and then became obsessed with pressing the button. This became the total driving force in his life until he saw the Pearl station video that immediately turned his attentions around. Suddenly he was devastated to hear that The Thing that was giving him purpose was once again meaningless. He immediately accepted the Pearl video without thinking that if there might have been a deception in the button, there might also be a deception in the pearl video. His impulsiveness left him frustrated.

He then jumped into an obsessive turnaround in insisting that the button not be pressed. This appears to have been exactly the wrong choice, ended up in the destruction of the hatch, and an event that probably gave better direction to the people behind not-pennys-boat, in locating the island. He knows he's made a huge mistake here. His impulsiveness left him guilty and frustrated.

He found happiness for a short time with "the family" that cultivated pot that took him in. His accidentally bringing in a federal agent and then (wisely) letting him go once his identity was unmasked left him feeling intensely guilty.

So that's the portions of the story that are reasonably-well resolved. The result of each is that his life is one unending stream of guilt and frustrations. Ironically, Helen was the one person in his life who cared enough to help him, and he might have at least found purpose and meaning in her life. But his impulsiveness in continuing to stalk his father destroyed that, leaving him alone as well as frustrated. After what Helen put into the relationship for him, he ought to feel a little guilty about it as well...

After all that, an island with unknown terrors and that's killing people off, one by one can actually be the brightest spot in his life. So he' s desperate to stay on the island where he has a sense of meaning. This led to his destruction of The Flame & possibly the destruction of the sub. It led to his interference in Sayid's triangulation on the radio tower. He took on the role of the group's leader temporarily, with his "We'll bring them back" speech, until he found going off on his own to be a more effective path to his "self realization."

In the end, Locke is as much an addict as Charlie was, but instead of doing anything necessary to get his next fix, he'll do anything to give him even a moment of feeling he has meaning and purpose. And yet, while Lock may come across as The Ultimate Loser in this analysis, his huge weakness may yet be his greatest strength...

My postings elsewhere outline my theory that the island is alive, can imperfectly read minds, can heal and create things, and is using these in an attempt to communicate with Our Heroes, or at least get their attention and help. Locke, in his desperate attempt to reach out to "fate" to find his sense of purpose has made him the one most receptive to the island's attempts to communicate. He may be doing things for the wrong reasons, but he's one of the few people who's doing the right things. I think this reaching out and the further connection to the island that will result are what makes him an important character in how the story will resolve. He may be annoying, but he's stumbling along in the right direction without knowing how he's doing it.


Locke is a wild-eyed dreamer, and we probably all have a little of him in us; some more than others. If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ve probably all found how that way of thinking has gotten us into trouble in life. I think that in this story, the writers are exploring what would happen if there were a set of circumstances in which the mystical dreamer was actually right. In following his feelings, he’s doing some thoroughly bizarre things, and I’d be concerned about sitting on a bus next to him, let alone following him as a leader. But I’m guessing that his part of the story is about how the hopeless dreamer may triumph in spite of himself. Again, he may be doing the right things for the wrong reasons, but for the first time in his life, he’s finally doing the right things.

wesb: brilliant post, I enjoyed reading that very much.

Sorry to quote an old post from this thread. I thought this was a fantastic theory however if you take everything that was said in the original Lost ARG as 100% gospel then we know that Mittelwerk said in the Sri Lanka video "We all know what happened. The Dharma Initative failed".

However this theory certainly would explain the food drops - not just at the swan but the barracks and possibly hydra as well.

But TLE is set in 2006, while it's 2004 on the island. So, it's quite possible that in 2004 Mittlewerk, Hanso, and whoever else was behind the DI still didn't know that it had failed.

workingmom, CrazyLatin and wesb,

Great posts. In fact this is a great thread, really thought-provoking on both sides of the issue.

I go with those who say that Locke does not have the best interests of the group as his motivation. He operates out of intuition and his own needs for purpose and belonging. He is on his own journey and imo does tend to be pretty cavalier about collateral damage along the way.

But as wesb said, the results of his actions may be what ends up saving the island and maybe the losties as well. (however many losties are left to save, that is). But I don't think it will be only Locke who saves the island -- otherwise why would Jack and the rest of the O6 need to return? "They need you" means that Locke is not getting it done alone. I think the Man of Science and the Man of Faith will need to work together, or learn to become more like each other, in order to finally succeed.

ETA: And just as we see Jack in his dark night of the soul off-island, Locke may turn into a dictator-figure, a "Col. Kurtz" on-island, as Sawyer would say. His tendency to make mistakes of judgment and his frustration may get worse before they get better.

It reminded me to Ben's quote 'All I ever did, I did for the island'....
So it might seem that the island is the best for all of the survivors. Jack and Hurley's desire to go back might be proof of that, which, later on, might be confirmed with the rest of the O06.
Also, we know how stubborn Ben has been about letting them leave the island. Remember Alex's question? 'Why don't you let them leave?' To which Ben responded: 'Because, I CAN'T'
Then, when, apparently Jack was about to leave on the sub, Locke comes along and blows it up!
We know that Locke is working under the island's influence, so that means that the Island doesn't want them to leave!!!!
And now, for those who did leave, the island is calling them back. The messenger is Matthew Abbadon.

I believe Locke is sincere about doing it all in the group's best interest even when he blew up the sub. After all, we don't know exactly what his motivation was to do so. Being afraid of Jack coming back with a rescue party isn't it. So what if Jack got off the island and came back with a rescue boat? Locke, with his skills--and his relationship with the island--could survive hidden in the jungle a la Rousseau. It's a big island and its doubtful that any would-be rescuers would send out a dragnet.

While he may have ulterior motives (finding his purpose), Locke has been a huge help to the group. Locke was the first to go out for boar meat; he found the Swan station (then was responsible for its destruction), he rescued Eko when he was trapped by the polar bear after the station exploded; he set Charlie on the path to getting himself clean; and helped find the way back to Othertown (aka the barracks). And before anyone says Boone--Locke didn't kill him. He suddenly could not walk again and he warned Boone to be careful. Even if he'd been truthful about the accidentl, I don't think Boone's life could have been saved.

What's interesting is how he was able to throw the knife in Naomi's back without a second thought. Before this he hadn't killed anyone, not the undercover cop nor Anthony Cooper (though I was annoyed how he manipulated Sawyer to do that, but maybe that will ultimately be proven to be in Sawyer's best interest as well), nor even Patchy (that came close). Locke is not a killer at heart. So what brought about that definitive change? What did Walt tell him? Has his communion with Jacob/Walt/the Island help him evolve into the hunter he truly believes himself to be? And what turned Jack into a would-be killer as well? If the gun had been loaded, Locke would have had a bullet in his head.

So many people think Locke is crazy. But why? Because of his faith in the island? Jack too has an irrational faith in science and the reality he chooses to know. I don't mean to knock Jack, I like him too. But what makes him so willing to trust the freighter people so readily when Sayid has concerns and Charlie warned them they aren't who they say they are?

If only the two of them would learn to share, but that's not happening in the near future. I agree with Fierro:

So it might seem that the island is the best for all of the survivors.

While we don't know what happens to those who stay, we know that, except for Kate, of the three Oceanic 6 revealed so far, two are suffering, and Jack's adage, "Live together, die alone" seems downright precient.

This has been a wonderful thread to read. So many great ideas and thoughts on both the characters and why they do or don't behave in certain ways. And for some reason this all has me remembering some dialogue between Ben and Jack:

Jack: How is it?
Henry[Reading]: Men reject their prophets and slay them, but they love their martyrs and honor those whom they have slain. [Speaking] So what's the difference between a martyr and a prophet?
Jack: Either way, it sounds like you end up dead.

A sign of what's to come?

I'm sure he believes it.

Does locking up Sawyer in The Black Rock count as "everything" or did Locke leave a few details out?

Whatever Locke does, he does for the Island and ultimately for himself. I'm sure he thinks the Island is a benevolent deity and he doesn't mean any of them harm. He thinks of himself as their savior, just like he wanted to save Eko from being a slave to the button, even though Eko said "No, thanks" and kicked his :censored: out of the hatch.

WORD to your post. I am sure Locke beleives that but is it the truth? IMHO I am not so sure but I am leaning towards no.

I/T :cool:
100%
1. I believe Locke's speech was heartfelt and his manipulation of Hurley's feelings was what he thought was needed to be done.

2. I believe he believes he's the chosen one who is merely protecting everyone. Sometimes he cracks an egg, but oh well... I think he did suffer and regretted Boone's death (like he told him in his vision), but I also believe he'd do it again in a heartbeat if the Island demanded another sacrifice.

3. I believe Locke doesn't "know" anything about the Island, he knows it cured his paralysis and thinks this is the answer to his quest for a destiny. His salvation. I find his backstory heartwrenching and I understand where it's coming from, but his carelessness with other people (they're not eggs after all) lives makes it self-serving and dangerous. He's a man in a desperate search to understand the mysteries of an entity that requires proof of faith and human sacrifices.

I hadn't really considered this until a friend pointed it out to me, but just because the Island doesn't like and didn't cure Ben, it doesn't mean Locke is its Chosen One or that its blessing would make Locke special. The Island healed Mikhail as well, several times and Mikhail was by no means a benevolent guy.

It is the Island that's ultimately self-serving and dangerous and the Island is using Locke as a tool. Messianic figures just don't do it for me, I guess, so whenever there's talk of blindly following Locke to his wonderful destinty, I feel like pulling a William Wallace and yelling: FREEEEEEEEDOM at the top of my lungs. :biggrin:


Another amazing post and you basically said everything I wanted to say about it too.