I didn't understand the whole conversation between Sayid and Ben. Someone transcribe, please! I don't have it on tape.

Holy cow!

OMG...I totally didn't see that one coming! Now, Sayid said that everyone has a boss...who do you think Ben is working for? Why do they want to harm the O6???

Ben asks Sayid if she (Elsa) is dead, and Sayid says yes. He asks her why didn't she kill him and he says because she was trying to get information from him. Trying to find out who he worked for. He asks Sayid if he is crying because of the gunshot wound or if because he let himself fall for Elsa. He asks Sayid if he remembers the last time he trusted them, how did that work out? Ben says he has another name for him (another person to kill). He asks Sayid if he wants to keep protecting his friends. Sayid says they know he is coming for them now. Ben says good.

I can't transcribe, but I was wondering the whole time who Sayid's boss was. I almost peed myself when I saw Ben's face!!!!! I'd have a huge mess if I wasn't wearing my Depends...

Recognized the voice and nearly had a stroke before the revealed the face of.... Ben.

Could this Ben be a doppleganger like the Wickmund/Holliwax/Candle thing? I just got the impression it wasn't the same Ben. At first when he was talking to sayid, he was definitely disguising his voice, and then once they showed the person's face, Ben started talking normally again. It's so odd to see Ben off the island like that, it just doesn't seem to jive with what we've been led to believe. It's a twist, but it seems too big of a twist.:confused:

During that last scene, I kept going, "That's Ben! That's Ben's voice!"

I had a feeling, because it was a foreshadowing when Sayid said, "I'll sell my soul before I trust [Ben]."

Ben asks Sayid if she (Elsa) is dead, and Sayid says yes. He asks her why didn't she kill him and he says because she was trying to get information from him. Trying to find out who he worked for. He asks Sayid if he is crying because of the gunshot wound or if because he let himself fall for Elsa. He asks Sayid if he remembers the last time he trusted them, how did that work out? Ben says he has another name for him (another person to kill). He asks Sayid if he wants to keep protecting his friends. Sayid says they know he is coming for them now. Ben says good.

Ok, please explain the line "remembers the last time he trusted them." Who are the pronouns? Who trusted who? And what happened? I know he's talking about something I have seen, I am just having trouble putting the pieces together.

I can't transcribe, but I was wondering the whole time who Sayid's boss was. I almost peed myself when I saw Ben's face!!!!! I'd have a huge mess if I wasn't wearing my Depends...

Boyfriend immediately said "it's Ben." and then I was like "duh. wow. ." And then the reveal. Wow. Passports was a good foreshadowing.

So Sayid is now in cahoots with Ben - making me think his "friends" are still on the island. (Ben would never leave). The friends discussion also points back to their discussion in the "jail" Locke puts them in together.

Definitely recognized Ben's voice right away, though his new career as a vet/surgeon is a bit dubious! :D Ben is blackmailing Sayid into doing his dirty work to protect the people who didn't get off the island... and he is also clearly implying that the people Sayid is killing are related to the freighties.
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Ok, please explain the line "remembers the last time he trusted them." Who are the pronouns? Who trusted who? And what happened? I know he's talking about something I have seen, I am just having trouble putting the pieces together.
Ben is asking Sayid if Sayid remembers the last time Sayid trusted the freighties.

OMG...I totally didn't see that one coming! Now, Sayid said that everyone has a boss...who do you think Ben is working for? Why do they want to harm the O6???

What makes you think they want to harm the O6?

Recognized the voice and nearly had a stroke before the revealed the face of.... Ben.

You know, I recognized the voice too before I saw the face, just not as Ben's, it was too low at first. Sounded more like Jacob's voice when he said "Help me" to Locke in the cabin. After we saw the face, the voice definitely rose in pitch and became Ben's usually weasely voice.

Really :confused: I could tell it was Ben from his voice before I even saw his face.

So Sayid is now in cahoots with Ben - making me think his "friends" are still on the island. (Ben would never leave). The friends discussion also points back to their discussion in the "jail" Locke puts them in together.

Definitely recognized Ben's voice right away, though his new career as a vet/surgeon is a bit dubious! :D Ben is blackmailing Sayid into doing his dirty work to protect the people who didn't get off the island... and he is also clearly implying that the people Sayid is killing are related to the freighties.
100%

Ben is asking Sayid if Sayid remembers the last time Sayid trusted the freighties.

Wait, but..... is Sayid on Ben's side? Does he agree that the freighties/Abaddon's people are bad people? Or is Ben blackmailing him to keep the Losties alive?
So confused...

You know, I recognized the voice too before I saw the face, just not as Ben's, it was too low at first. Sounded more like Jacob's voice when he said "Help me" to Locke in the cabin. After we saw the face, the voice definitely rose in pitch and became Ben's usually weasely voice.

I think they used the echo of the room to masquerade his voice.

I recognized that it was Ben's voice, but it had been altered sort of in the way that Jacob's had been altered. Was wondering if that was supposed to be some sort of clue to Ben's state of being or whether it was just trying to delay revealing it was Ben.

Wait, but..... is Sayid on Ben's side? Does he agree that the freighties/Abaddon's people are bad people? Or is Ben blackmailing him to keep the Losties alive?
So confused...




I think the Freighties, or at least whoever is behind them, are really bad news and something terrible is coming from them on the island. Ben and Sayid have a common enemy, although I'm sure Ben is using manipulation if not outright coercion to make Sayid commit all these murders.

Probably the alliance begins when Ben explains the secret room to Sayid off camera while they are imprisoned together.

Cardie

They set Sayid up the whole episode to look like a bad-a$$, then at the end, he seems so weak and beaten down compared to Ben.
That Ben is one creepy and terrifying dude! When he said, "Good.", it sent chills down my spine.

I knew it was Ben from the moment he started talking. It seems that they are on the same side. Sayid seems to believe in what he's doing. I wonder how it all ties in with the other 5.

Was Ben talking about the other 5 though? I don't remember if he outright said it was them they were protecting or if maybe Ben is more interested in protecting the ones left behind on the island.

Knowing Sayid and Ben's history since we've known them (Sayid finding out he was not Henry Gale, torturing Ben and so on and so on) That had to be THE best damn scene TV has ever aired to date. Great and i do mean Great! What a mind bender.

I must go to the sweat lodge with special herbs to ponder this one now.

Right, the pronouns were very confusing to me, but thank you to everyone who is attempting to explain. If Abaddon is bad and going after Hurley (and the other O6?), the maybe Sayid is killing off Abaddon's people in order to keep protecting the O6. Or the people on the island. It's so hard to say.

It's really hard to say if Sayid believes in what he is doing or not. He has become such a desensitized person since he became a torturer. And it is sooooo sad that the island, which we all thought would cleanse the Losties of their past sins, has lead Sayid to continue to hurt people--in fact kill people. Many people. Poor Sayid. Even if he believes in what he is doing, it is breaking him.

OMG...I totally didn't see that one coming! Now, Sayid said that everyone has a boss...who do you think Ben is working for? Why do they want to harm the O6???

I think the friends Ben was talking about were his friends still on the island.

Definitely recognized Ben's voice right away, though his new career as a vet/surgeon is a bit dubious! :D Ben is blackmailing Sayid into doing his dirty work to protect the people who didn't get off the island... and he is also clearly implying that the people Sayid is killing are related to the freighties.
100%

Ben is asking Sayid if Sayid remembers the last time Sayid trusted the freighties.
Yay - I knew it was Ben's voice too! It sure explained why Sayid had become an assassin.
I thought Ben was implying the last time Sayid followed his heart he was betrayed, and I couldn't figure that out. Maybe Ben was referring to the mission in Australia the CIA made him do (in TGG)?

Knowing Sayid and Ben's history since we've known them (Sayid finding out he was not Henry Gale, torturing Ben and so on and so on) That had to be THE best damn scene TV has ever aired to date. Great and i do mean Great! What a mind bender.

I must go to the sweat lodge with special herbs to ponder this one now.

With all the twists in turns since Ben was "Henry", I literally forgot tonight that Sayid tortured him. Crazy.

Great reveal indeed! But from the very first moment that Sayid mentioned he had a secret boss I just knew it was Ben for some reason. Don't know why. Probably because it was a secret....I knew it had to be something crazy. But then with "sell my soul" line and the secret room...that clinched it for me. So when I heard the somewhat disguised voice, I knew it was Ben for sure.

Still a fantastic twist though!

JENNI LOU!! OMG! Stop by the Whispers thread!! :kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss:

At what point is the "sell my soul" line? I am so overwhelmed by tonight's episode, I don't remember.

Right, the pronouns were very confusing to me, but thank you to everyone who is attempting to explain. If Abaddon is bad and going after Hurley (and the other O6?), the maybe Sayid is killing off Abaddon's people in order to keep protecting the O6. Or the people on the island. It's so hard to say.

It's really hard to say if Sayid believes in what he is doing or not. He has become such a desensitized person since he became a torturer. And it is sooooo sad that the island, which we all thought would cleanse the Losties of their past sins, has lead Sayid to continue to hurt people--in fact kill people. Many people. Poor Sayid. Even if he believes in what he is doing, it is breaking him.

I think this is one of the main reasons why I didn't really enjoy the episode. On the island, Sayid is very confident and strong, yet when he was sitting in that chair, he look defeated, and then to top it off, he's taken orders from Ben? BEN??

Even when he shot that dude on the golf course, and was "playing" up Elsa, he still seemed like the same Sayid. But the last scene was a complete reversal, with Ben pulling the strings. Just didn't like that.

JENNI LOU!! OMG! Stop by the Whispers thread!! :kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss:

At what point is the "sell my soul" line? I am so overwhelmed by tonight's episode, I don't remember.

:clap: I have been lurking, I promise! I just not a big poster.= at the 'Lage for some reason. Still a whisper fanatic though. Check the sig. :D


The "sell my soul" line occurred while after Locke brought int he iced tea. ;) Sayid says something like "The day I sell my soul is the day I trust [Ben]."

I think this is one of the main reasons why I didn't really enjoy the episode. On the island, Sayid is very confident and strong, yet when he was sitting in that chair, he look defeated, and then to top it off, he's taken orders from Ben? BEN??

Even when he shot that dude on the golf course, and was "playing" up Elsa, he still seemed like the same Sayid. But the last scene was a complete reversal, with Ben pulling the strings. Just didn't like that.

It was heartbreaking. What must Ben be holding over Sayid's head to get him to do what he is doing? Maybe the safety of all the rest of the Losties. Anyway, this is Sayid's version of falling apart just as Jack and Hurley both have done. So sad.

I'm sure we'll have a transcript soon, but for those who can't wait I'll try my Tivo RW as best as I can. Ben:"why are u crying, because it hurts or were you stupid enough to care for her? ....These people don't desrve our sympathies....Need I remind you what they did last time you fought with your heart instead of your gun" Sayid: "You used that to recruit me into killing for you." Ben: " You want to protect your friends or not Sayid?"

It was not off camera. When Sayid leaves in the helicopter that is a flash forward in the EP

It was heartbreaking. What must Ben be holding over Sayid's head to get him to do what he is doing? Maybe the safety of all the rest of the Losties. Anyway, this is Sayid's version of falling apart just as Jack and Hurley both have done. So sad.

See this is what I didn't really understand. Jack and Hurley are falling apart and saying "We have to go back" yet this isn't happening at all for Sayid. Just seems so different from we've been teased with in the FF's up to this point.

Right, the pronouns were very confusing to me, but thank you to everyone who is attempting to explain. If Abaddon is bad and going after Hurley (and the other O6?), the maybe Sayid is killing off Abaddon's people in order to keep protecting the O6. Or the people on the island. It's so hard to say.

It's really hard to say if Sayid believes in what he is doing or not. He has become such a desensitized person since he became a torturer. And it is sooooo sad that the island, which we all thought would cleanse the Losties of their past sins, has lead Sayid to continue to hurt people--in fact kill people. Many people. Poor Sayid. Even if he believes in what he is doing, it is breaking him.


Excellent. I mean why else would make Hurley so scared that he wants to go back to the mental institution. I also think that if Ben is capable of convincing Sayid that working for him would protect his friends on the Island he is also convincing him that he is protecting his friends that made it off of the Island as well. Maybe the person in the coffin did not commit suicide but was murdered by Abaddon

The end was crazy. Ben looked different somehow. Maybe it was his glasses and lack of blood on his face...

The end was crazy. Ben looked different somehow. Maybe it was his glasses and lack of blood on his face...

I'm telling ya, Ben's pulling the old Candle/Wickmund/Holliwax trick, whatever that is!;)

from what i remember ben said:
"remember the last time you thought with your heart and not with your gun?"
sayid: "you used HER to recruit me into killing for you"

i think these lines have a lot of information in them. a girl fooled sayid into killing for ben. sayid fell in love with this girl (or wanted to protect her) and something bad happened. my first thought was that ben used nadia somehow (maybe as a hostage).

from what i remember ben said:
"remember the last time you thought with your heart and not with your gun?"
sayid: "you used HER to recruit me into killing for you"

i think these lines have a lot of information in them. a girl fooled sayid into killing for ben. sayid fell in love with this girl (or wanted to protect her) and something bad happened. my first thought was that ben used nadia somehow (maybe as a hostage).

I definately think Nadia was involved, although it's most likely that Sayid's working with Ben because some harm came of Nadia (probably her death) at the hands of whatever organization they're keying in on rather than Nadia being a plant used to recruit him.

"Remember the last time you fought with your heart and not with your gun?"

I have a feeling this refers to something involving the botched rescue from the island, even though Sayid refers to a specific "her" involved.

Did anyone else think that Sayid was using Elsa to locate her boss, that her boss was really Sayid's target? Or am I just confused?

Could Abaddon be Elsa's boss? ...And to speculate further, could the scene where Abaddon visits Hurley be farther in the future, and Sayid is dead and no longer there to protect his friends (from Abaddon?)

I definately think Nadia was involved, although it's most likely that Sayid's working with Ben because some harm came of Nadia (probably her death) at the hands of whatever organization they're keying in on rather than Nadia being a plant used to recruit him.

ooh i agree. i think what happened is sayid found nadia after he got back. the organization attacked sayid and killed nadia in the process. sayid could have stopped them but he was too in love with nadia to think straight. ben contacts sayid and uses him to get revenge on the organization. the organization may be associated w/ the freighties (they are both after ben), and they may be targeting the O6 as well.

I definately think Nadia was involved, although it's most likely that Sayid's working with Ben because some harm came of Nadia (probably her death) at the hands of whatever organization they're keying in on rather than Nadia being a plant used to recruit him.

I was thinking Nadia here as well. My theory is that Nadia and Sayid were reunited when the O6 were found. However, like you say, whatever organization they're fighting somehow killed Nadia (maybe when trying to kill Sayid) and Ben used this tragedy to get Sayid to work for him. Either way the flashforwards are becoming incredibly more interesting with each episode!

Ben looked different somehow. Maybe it was his glasses and lack of blood on his face...I've spent the last three episodes spraying and wiping the tv screen, every time Ben's appeared, I'm sick of seeing that bloody face. It was nice to see him finally cleaned up..

Nobody cleans up as nice as Sayid, tho. Yummy.

Knowing Sayid and Ben's history since we've known them (Sayid finding out he was not Henry Gale, torturing Ben and so on and so on) That had to be THE best damn scene TV has ever aired to date. Great and i do mean Great! What a mind bender.

I must go to the sweat lodge with special herbs to ponder this one now.


the "best scene" meaning the torture???

p.s. wait for me, im comming to ponder too.

They set Sayid up the whole episode to look like a bad-butt, then at the end, he seems so weak and beaten down compared to Ben.
That Ben is one creepy and terrifying dude! When he said, "Good.", it sent chills down my spine.

Ironic that Ben is the one beaten (physically though not in spirit) on the island and the tables are turned in the flash forward. We've already seen a downfallen Jack in the fast forwards...now Sayid...

I think the Freighties, or at least whoever is behind them, are really bad news and something terrible is coming from them on the island. Ben and Sayid have a common enemy, although I'm sure Ben is using manipulation if not outright coercion to make Sayid commit all these murders.

Probably the alliance begins when Ben explains the secret room to Sayid off camera while they are imprisoned together.

Cardie

I agree with you, Cardie. The freighties must have done something absolutely horrifying for Sayid to even think of aligning himself with Ben! And, since Sayid & Des were the ones who went to check out the freighter and maybe decided that they were being overcautious or something and helped bring these people onto the Island, he feels guilty and wants to redeem himself once again by helping Ben "protect" the remaining Losties on the Island as well as the O6 by any means necessary.

Knowing Sayid and Ben's history since we've known them (Sayid finding out he was not Henry Gale, torturing Ben and so on and so on) That had to be THE best damn scene TV has ever aired to date. Great and i do mean Great! What a mind bender.

I must go to the sweat lodge with special herbs to ponder this one now.

I was totally shocked by that scene and so was hubby! I guess we'll be seeing you in the sweat lodge because we need to ponder this as well. :rotflmao2:

I think the friends Ben was talking about were his friends still on the island.

That's my take on it as well.

It was heartbreaking. What must Ben be holding over Sayid's head to get him to do what he is doing? Maybe the safety of all the rest of the Losties. Anyway, this is Sayid's version of falling apart just as Jack and Hurley both have done. So sad.

It was heartbreaking, nancy. Between the gunshot wound and the hurt he felt over what he felt compelled to do, he's really on overload and now I'm wondering if there's some way he will be able to contact Jack and Hurley to see about getting back to the Island. If anyone could get the "key" to the Island from Ben, it would be Sayid. ;)

So Ben is Sayid's boss. Big bombshell. But who is Elsa's boss? Is he one of the Dharma people who wasn't on the island who want to get Ben because he killed all the Dharma island people? The biggest mysteries are yet to be revealed. Why it is so difficult to find the island even when they know about it? and Ben has obviously been traveling under many false identities for years now, and they still haven't gotten him yet.

On the island,Ben and the Others haven't actually killed anybody,or ordered the deaths of anybody.
Off island,he is dishing out lists of people to kill

Does this signify an event that has changed Ben?

What makes you think they want to harm the O6?

I took it that he was threatening Sayid's friends still on the island...

[quote=kpdjp;1762341]from what i remember ben said:
"remember the last time you thought with your heart and not with your gun?"
sayid: "you used HER to recruit me into killing for you"/quote]

I thought I heard "you used THAT to recruit me..." Not that it makes a difference. He still could be talking about Nadia.

Sayid has definately been working out! :thud:

i don't think ben is a part of the six. ben has always had a way on and off of the island so i wouldn't be surprised if he magically appears to the six later on.

When was the last time that Sayid thought with his heart instead of his gun? Is this something we've already seen? Also, Elsa refers to a "he" as did Kate in the last episode last season. I can't believe that it's just lazy writing but I don't know what else to make of it. Any ideas? Further, someone talks about someone being or not being on some one's list. there seem to be a lot of lists making the rounds.

On the island,Ben and the Others haven't actually killed anybody,or ordered the deaths of anybody.
Off island,he is dishing out lists of people to kill

Does this signify an event that has changed Ben?

Ben and the Others killed all of the Dharma people on the island! Ben ordered his people to kill anyone who got in their way when they went to take the women off the beach. Ben told Mikhail to kill the two women in the Looking Glass. Ben killed his own dad! :eek2:

Ben and the Others killed all of the Dharma people on the island! Ben ordered his people to kill anyone who got in their way when they went to take the women off the beach. Ben told Mikhail to kill the two women in the Looking Glass. Ben killed his own dad! :eek2:


ooooooops

lol,,can't believe i forgot that!!!!

When was the last time that Sayid thought with his heart instead of his gun? Is this something we've already seen? Also, Elsa refers to a "he" as did Kate in the last episode last season. I can't believe that it's just lazy writing but I don't know what else to make of it. Any ideas? Further, someone talks about someone being or not being on some one's list. there seem to be a lot of lists making the rounds.
See Lostpedia synopsis of Sayid. He became a torturer because of the heartbreak he felt seeing his village gassed (on film) That's one I can think of, but there can still more that could happen between what we've last seen of Sayid on the island and this FF.

I would like to state right now that I think this is big evidence for a related mystery - the funeral Jack goes to in last season's finale. We know Ben apparently left the Island, and if he died there definitely wouldn't be anyone to go to his funeral. And when Jack asked Kate why she didn't go, her offended reaction would definitely make sense.

I would like to state right now that I think this is big evidence for a related mystery - the funeral Jack goes to in last season's finale. We know Ben apparently left the Island, and if he died there definitely wouldn't be anyone to go to his funeral. And when Jack asked Kate why she didn't go, her offended reaction would definitely make sense.

Then why would Jack go and expect Kate to go? No matter that Ben's protecting the island, but it doesn't change the fact he's pure evil.

And why would Jack be as extremely upset by the death as he obviously was?

Even though Sayid is working for Ben here, I didn't get the immediate impression that he really likes Ben. I just can't ever see that happening for Jack, either.

I' ll just say that I wasn't expecting seeing Ben at all. I was telling my wife that it was gonna be Abaddon!!!!!
Another WTF moment for me!!!!

I think that Jack went hoping to make contact with people who may have held answers for him. But nobody showed up. Then Jack looked so torn up because he knew that the dead dude was his only way to find out what he needed to know. Now there was no hope for him to find out anything.

Ben's convinced Sayid to work for him, and this arrangement seems to have begun at the point when they've both kept in that room in "New Otherton". I'm guessing Ben spills some of the Big Beans Of The Island to Sayid, once the hidden room is brought up. I also agree that Ben's line referencing "thinking with your heart instead of your gun" refers to something we've yet to see, probably involves a conclusion with Nadia.

I'd just like to say that I love the twists that Ben is a) still alive in the future b) still able to work some off-island power-trip mojo and c) has something motivating enough to convince Sayid -- the perpetual skeptic -- to have "sold his soul" and do such dirty work for Ben's cause.

My assumptions about the end discussion: there's definitely an element of Ben & Sayid working payback on anyone involved in harming or threatening their priorities... a series of secret attacks on whatever the big bad is, Dharma or Widmore or whoever... but what if the agenda is to simply kill off anyone who plain knows the real truth and power about the island? Extreme, I know... at least Sayid wouldn't be torturing to find out information; it would be killing, to prevent the sharing of information. (In tv logic, is that better?)

I've been wondering if the island could function as a time machine. "Imagine a box where anything you want could come out of it". Well, a time machine could more or less provide anything. And if Ben knows just how dangerous it could be to abuse, he probably would assume killing off anyone wanting to use (and therefore abuse) it would be the smartest move. With it, he could not only deduce who is involved in any "island-rescue" scenario, through infiltration, but he could also help deposit Sayid into different, select moments to take someone out.

(The golf game at the starter -- Sayid's confession that he was one of the O6, I think was a trick. The man he killed is on Ben's list, probably knows of the island, and probably the real fate of 815. Sayid say he is one of the O6, the man starts to worry, maybe because he knows this is not true; instead, the man is now wondering who else this might be, who's here to harm him...)

Different things seem to keep me on this line of thought. Whoever "the economist" will turn out to be; he works in "emerging markets"... well, someone with a good grasp of what will happen in the future would certainly know what markets are likely to emerge.

Then again I'm probably full of cr@p and posting in the wrong place.

I think that Jack went hoping to make contact with people who may have held answers for him. But nobody showed up. Then Jack looked so torn up because he knew that the dead dude was his only way to find out what he needed to know. Now there was no hope for him to find out anything.

Then why did Jack place his hand on the coffin? He was definitely showing some sort of compassion(?) toward the person in that coffin, why else would he have placed his hand on it?

I'm not even sure if Jack and Hurley have any idea what Sayid is doing now that they are off the island, so they may not even know that he's "working" for Ben.

:clap: I have been lurking, I promise! I just not a big poster.= at the 'Lage for some reason. Still a whisper fanatic though. Check the sig. :D


The "sell my soul" line occurred while after Locke brought int he iced tea. ;) Sayid says something like "The day I sell my soul is the day I trust [Ben]."

Thanks for the info. Jenni Lou, and good to see you around again. :biggrin:

It was heartbreaking. What must Ben be holding over Sayid's head to get him to do what he is doing? Maybe the safety of all the rest of the Losties. Anyway, this is Sayid's version of falling apart just as Jack and Hurley both have done. So sad.

I totally agree. Very heartbreaking. They are ALL falling apart.

I'm sure we'll have a transcript soon, but for those who can't wait I'll try my Tivo RW as best as I can. Ben:"why are u crying, because it hurts or were you stupid enough to care for her? ....These people don't desrve our sympathies....Need I remind you what they did last time you fought with your heart instead of your gun" Sayid: "You used that to recruit me into killing for you." Ben: " You want to protect your friends or not Sayid?"

Thank you for this. And I am just really pleased that I am not the only one who was like "what? huh? need transcript!"

See this is what I didn't really understand. Jack and Hurley are falling apart and saying "We have to go back" yet this isn't happening at all for Sayid. Just seems so different from we've been teased with in the FF's up to this point.

Yes, very different. There's clearly a reason why Sayid is in the "loop" with Ben, but Hurley and Jack are not. Of course, I could understand Ben and Jack never being able to be on the same side. Jack too stubborn for that?

The end was crazy. Ben looked different somehow. Maybe it was his glasses and lack of blood on his face... It was the glasses and the sterile environment, I think. I agree, he looked different.

I definately think Nadia was involved, although it's most likely that Sayid's working with Ben because some harm came of Nadia (probably her death) at the hands of whatever organization they're keying in on rather than Nadia being a plant used to recruit him.

It would be so sad, after all this time, seeing her in other people's FBs, that she would die when she is reunited with Sayid. How Greek Tragedy of TPTB if they do that.

"Remember the last time you fought with your heart and not with your gun?"

I have a feeling this refers to something involving the botched rescue from the island, even though Sayid refers to a specific "her" involved.

Did anyone else think that Sayid was using Elsa to locate her boss, that her boss was really Sayid's target? Or am I just confused?

Could Abaddon be Elsa's boss? ...And to speculate further, could the scene where Abaddon visits Hurley be farther in the future, and Sayid is dead and no longer there to protect his friends (from Abaddon?)

I don't know if he said "her." There seems to be a confusion abou that in this thread.
I personally don't think Sayid had any feelings for Elsa. I mean, until she pulled one over on him, I think he felt bad for using him, and thought she was a nice girl. But I don't think he loved her. He never said he loved her.

I like the idea that Hurley's FF is further in the future. There could be an order to the FFs, backwards from how they were presented to us. Sayid's closest in time, then Hurley's, then Jack's. And judging from the preview
we are going to see Kate not long after she returns--all the cameras flashing for her picture, etc... so we might get the time frame closest ot the island time, which will be cool.


Nobody cleans up as nice as Sayid, tho. Yummy.

lol I am NOT a fan of the straightened hair. heh.

Even though Sayid is working for Ben here, I didn't get the immediate impression that he really likes Ben. I just can't ever see that happening for Jack, either.

I agree. Sayid looked like he felt like he HAD to comply with Ben. No choice.

Ben's convinced Sayid to work for him, and this arrangement seems to have begun at the point when they've both kept in that room in "New Otherton". I'm guessing Ben spills some of the Big Beans Of The Island to Sayid, once the hidden room is brought up. I also agree that Ben's line referencing "thinking with your heart instead of your gun" refers to something we've yet to see, probably involves a conclusion with Nadia.

I'd just like to say that I love the twists that Ben is a) still alive in the future b) still able to work some off-island power-trip mojo and c) has something motivating enough to convince Sayid -- the perpetual skeptic -- to have "sold his soul" and do such dirty work for Ben's cause.

My assumptions about the end discussion: there's definitely an element of Ben & Sayid working payback on anyone involved in harming or threatening their priorities... a series of secret attacks on whatever the big bad is, Dharma or Widmore or whoever... but what if the agenda is to simply kill off anyone who plain knows the real truth and power about the island? Extreme, I know... at least Sayid wouldn't be torturing to find out information; it would be killing, to prevent the sharing of information. (In tv logic, is that better?)

I've been wondering if the island could function as a time machine. "Imagine a box where anything you want could come out of it". Well, a time machine could more or less provide anything. And if Ben knows just how dangerous it could be to abuse, he probably would assume killing off anyone wanting to use (and therefore abuse) it would be the smartest move. With it, he could not only deduce who is involved in any "island-rescue" scenario, through infiltration, but he could also help deposit Sayid into different, select moments to take someone out.

(The golf game at the starter -- Sayid's confession that he was one of the O6, I think was a trick. The man he killed is on Ben's list, probably knows of the island, and probably the real fate of 815. Sayid say he is one of the O6, the man starts to worry, maybe because he knows this is not true; instead, the man is now wondering who else this might be, who's here to harm him...)

Different things seem to keep me on this line of thought. Whoever "the economist" will turn out to be; he works in "emerging markets"... well, someone with a good grasp of what will happen in the future would certainly know what markets are likely to emerge.

Then again I'm probably full of cr@p and posting in the wrong place.

No, I like your ideas. It's just too much for me to digest right now, lol. But good ideas. Keep 'em coming!

"Remember the last time you fought with your heart and not with your gun?"
Any other fans of Stephen King's Dark Tower series recognize this as an inversion of the gunslinger mantra?

i'm not sure why everyone thinks Abaddon or the Freighty 4 are bad people. Lets just look at the facts. Ben Maniplates people, comitted mass murder and has cause the deaths of the losties. Freighty people came with equipment to protect them from gas, and what the man who comitted mass murder. To me the Frieghty 4 are good guys and may be even from the Hanso foundation. I also would guess that the man Syaid was going to kill is Hanso.

There was a lot going on in this episode, so I'll ask this: Is there any possibility at all that Sayid's flashforward with Ben and the woman was actually a flashback that occurred prior to the crash? Could Sayid have been in cahoots with Ben all along?

remember the line when Ben mentioned that Sayid had once followed his heart instead of his head?
and Sayid said something along the lines of "and you used that to recruit me"?

Could this have been as far back as Iraq?
I'm not suggesting that Sayid has been a mole all along,rather that Ben/DHARMA have been manipulating Sayid's entire life


and by extension,all the other Losties?

This is something I used to believe back at the start of season 2,but i discounted it.

Now with the intriguing possibility of time travel,,it could be more likely

Ben: "Need I remind you what they did last time you fought with your heart instead of your gun" Sayid: "You used that to recruit me into killing for you.""
Which leads me to believe that whatever Ben is referring to, we haven't seen yet.

I definately think Nadia was involved, although it's most likely that Sayid's working with Ben because some harm came of Nadia (probably her death) at the hands of whatever organization they're keying in on rather than Nadia being a plant used to recruit him.

Bingo. What would motivate Sayid to act in this manner other than something involving Nadia?

i'm not sure why everyone thinks Abaddon or the Freighty 4 are bad people. Lets just look at the facts. Ben Maniplates people, comitted mass murder and has cause the deaths of the losties. Freighty people came with equipment to protect them from gas, and what the man who comitted mass murder. To me the Frieghty 4 are good guys and may be even from the Hanso foundation. I also would guess that the man Syaid was going to kill is Hanso.

Hmmmm, interesting idea, could be why he wanted to use the Beeper instead of the cell phone, since he's more used to using the beeper, he's from an "earlier" time.

I thought the beeper was used instead of the cell phone because it couldn't be traced as easily as a cellphone. But Sayid found a way around that by using a disposable cell phone. I still think Elsa's boss is Abaddon, but Hanso is an interesting idea.

There was a lot going on in this episode, so I'll ask this: Is there any possibility at all that Sayid's flashforward with Ben and the woman was actually a flashback that occurred prior to the crash? Could Sayid have been in cahoots with Ben all along?

What a great idea! I doubt it's correct -- too different a perspective, to fit in with Sayid's flashbacks in Australia, just before the 815 departure -- but it's a great twist to consider. Golf guy assassination was post-815 crash (refers to O6) and everything else with Ilsa was pre-815 crash.

Yeah, I doubt it would be right, but it would be a neat twist. Plus bonus points for using the word "cahoots".

There was a lot going on in this episode, so I'll ask this: Is there any possibility at all that Sayid's flashforward with Ben and the woman was actually a flashback that occurred prior to the crash? Could Sayid have been in cahoots with Ben all along?
he mentioned the crash to golf guy AND Elsa

What a great idea! I doubt it's correct -- too different a perspective, to fit in with Sayid's flashbacks in Australia, just before the 815 departure -- but it's a great twist to consider. Golf guy assassination was post-815 crash (refers to O6) and everything else with Ilsa was pre-815 crash.

Yeah, I doubt it would be right, but it would be a neat twist. Plus bonus points for using the word "cahoots".
Seriously, the golf guy is what cinched it for me -- they tossed that in there before the rest of his so-called flashforward to throw us off. Now, there may be details that may contradict this idea, but I think it would be interesting to rewatch the episode with this possibility in mind -- Sayid working for Ben prior to the crash and even up to now.
100%
he mentioned the crash to golf guy AND Elsa
Did he? I can't remember his mentioning it to Elsa -- I could only remember that he kept secrets from her. If so, please disregard my speculation.

Seriously, the golf guy is what cinched it for me -- they tossed that in there before the rest of his so-called flashforward to throw us off. Now, there may be details that may contradict this idea, but I think it would be interesting to rewatch the episode with this possibility in mind -- Sayid working for Ben prior to the crash and even up to now.

Yes, but during the "bed" scene, Elsa referred to him and the O6.

What a great idea! I doubt it's correct -- too different a perspective, to fit in with Sayid's flashbacks in Australia, just before the 815 departure -- but it's a great twist to consider. Golf guy assassination was post-815 crash (refers to O6) and everything else with Ilsa was pre-815 crash.

Yeah, I doubt it would be right, but it would be a neat twist. Plus bonus points for using the word "cahoots".

Elsa mentions Sayid not wanting to talk about "the crash" when she's talking to him in bed about not knowing any of the details of his life.

Elsa mentions Sayid not wanting to talk about "the crash" when she's talking to him in bed about not knowing any of the details of his life.
Sorry for hijacking the thread then -- carry on!

:)

They set Sayid up the whole episode to look like a bad-butt, then at the end, he seems so weak and beaten down compared to Ben.
....


I agree - I was completely surprised to see SAYID of all people appear so vulnerable at the end with Ben. His state of vulnerablility, I think, references the "something horrible" about the O6 coming back to civilization, but still - SAYID?????

i'm not sure why everyone thinks Abaddon or the Freighty 4 are bad people. Lets just look at the facts. Ben Maniplates people, comitted mass murder and has cause the deaths of the losties. Freighty people came with equipment to protect them from gas, and what the man who comitted mass murder. To me the Frieghty 4 are good guys and may be even from the Hanso foundation. I also would guess that the man Syaid was going to kill is Hanso.

When the Losties mention the fact that Locke thinks the Freighties will kill them, the first time Miles gets a wierd look, like--uh-oh. The second time, when Hurley asks directly, he responds 'Not yet" or somthing along that line. Definately seems to me that killing is part of their plan!

I knew it was Ben too, what I can't figure out is the dog kennell thing. I can't imagine that Ben's headquarters are in a kennel in Berlin. At least one of Sayid's hits was in the Seychelles. Do you all think that he can still travel on and off island and can manifest himself out of his black box or wormhole thing to be in different spots where he is needed?

I think this is a pretty clear indication that Ben is indeed one of the good guys even though he has done some bad things. Sayid would not be doing what he is doing to protecthis friends if Ben was not right all along about the freighties.

Originally Posted by MPmom http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1761949#post1761949)
They set Sayid up the whole episode to look like a bad-butt, then at the end, he seems so weak and beaten down compared to Ben

So far we have seen 3 of the 06 in the "future" and all seem to have returned to their pre-crash states;

Jack is a pill popping drunk and mentally tortured/unhappy ( and single LOL)
Hurley is back in the nut house and scared and guilty
Sayid is back living the violent lifestyle that he tried to escape from and definitely it is taking it's toll on him

from what i remember ben said:
"remember the last time you thought with your heart and not with your gun?"
sayid: "you used HER to recruit me into killing for you"

i think these lines have a lot of information in them. a girl fooled sayid into killing for ben. sayid fell in love with this girl (or wanted to protect her) and something bad happened. my first thought was that ben used nadia somehow (maybe as a hostage).

No. Sayid said: "You used THAT to recruit me into killing for you."

I think this is a pretty clear indication that Ben is indeed one of the good guys even though he has done some bad things. Sayid would not be doing what he is doing to protecthis friends if Ben was not right all along about the freighties.

Some bad things? He slaughtered over 40 people, including the man who pulled over to help him during birth and gave his father a job and brought Ben to the island, shot Locke and left him for dead when all Locke did was hear Jacob, kidnapped Walt and left Michael, Jin and Sawyer for dead, ordered Mikhail to kill Bonnie, Greta and Charlie, and wanted to kidnap all the women and kill whoever got in his way. Oh yeah, and kidnapped Alex, took her away from her real mother and tried to brain wash Karl. Am I forgetting anything?

He may be working to protect the island, but Ben can't be considered good. The man is pure evil, and since God can't find the island, he may never have to repent.

I would like to state right now that I think this is big evidence for a related mystery - the funeral Jack goes to in last season's finale. We know Ben apparently left the Island, and if he died there definitely wouldn't be anyone to go to his funeral. And when Jack asked Kate why she didn't go, her offended reaction would definitely make sense.
Personally I don't believe it was Ben in the coffin, but I do think whoever was in there was killed the last time "Sayid thought with his heart and not his gun" (or whatever the line was). I think that person's death is what Ben is referring to, keeping Sayid feeling guilty enough to do his dirty work, to protect his friends.

I think there are two Bens.. and the one Sayid is working for is NOT island Ben... I think he is the Ben of the photograph. Island Ben hasn't left the island-- but his clone has.

Remember the multiplying bunnies from the Orchid orientation film?

Any other fans of Stephen King's Dark Tower series recognize this as an inversion of the gunslinger mantra?

Well not until right NOW! Neat catch!

I agree - I was completely surprised to see SAYID of all people appear so vulnerable at the end with Ben. His state of vulnerablility, I think, references the "something horrible" about the O6 coming back to civilization, but still - SAYID?????

I didn't see Sayid as being completely vulnerable at the end, actually. More like resigned to the fact that he has to do some things that he doesn't want to do, and it bothers him. It makes me think of when he tortured Sawyer to get info about the asthma meds - it bothered Sayid so much that he may, at heart, simply be the man who does what he has to, regardless of the kind of man it makes him, that he took off on the walk that led us to Roussseau. I think he's upset by who he is, and that he's acting in accordance with the greater good, despite having to be in cahoots with Ben. Despite he comments about recruitment, I can't see Sayid doing something without a) some hostage situation, like Nadia, perhaps, being held over him, or b) truly believing in the end result. Plus, he would ally himself with whomever it made sense to ally with at the time.

Also - I don't think Ben is pure evil. None of the characters on this show are simple - they're all good people who have done bad things, or bad people who have done good things, but like life - they're all complicated. It's possible that Ben has done what he thought was best for his people, or done what he thought was for the greater good. It doesn't excuse his bad acts, but it does fit with the 'nobody's perfect' theme.

On the island,Ben and the Others haven't actually killed anybody,or ordered the deaths of anybody.
Off island,he is dishing out lists of people to kill

Does this signify an event that has changed Ben?

Are you kidding! Ben and the Others gassed the Darma crew. Ben even gassed his own father while watching with a grin!

the more i think about this conversation between ben and sayid, the more i think there's not a clone ben... the references to the previous happening would put too much history between the forward flash and the heli leaving the island at the end... i think its the same ben, and that ben is either

a. blackmailing sayid to kill for him so that someone doesn't die (those left on the island, nadia, ?)

or

b. positioned where if ben is assassinated, the fate of those sayid loves is death or harm... a slight variation of the first scenerio, but one in which sayid keeps choosing to kill for the sake of others instead of being forced...

sayid seems to see that helping kill ben's list will save someone he cares for pain, and we know he doesn't care about ben, ultimately...

this makes me wonder about who the girl ben uses to trick sayid the first time is.... could it be nadia?

(he did say that at the end of the epi, right? that ben used a girl to trick sayid into killing for him the first time....?)

Well not until right NOW! Neat catch!
Yay, thanks! I feel validated now. :)

Definitely recognized Ben's voice right away, though his new career as a vet/surgeon is a bit dubious! :D Ben is blackmailing Sayid into doing his dirty work to protect the people who didn't get off the island...

At first I thought Ben was just using the vet office to fix Sayid or maybe using it as a cover for his covert activities. But I suppose it's possible Ben is stuck off island working to protect the island from the outside while Locke watches over from within. Maybe he does pass himself off as a vet. That way he can have as many white bunnies as he wants. :bunny::bunny:

But Ben is not blackmailing Sayid. Both are working to protect the island and those on it from Abadon (Abbadon or Abaddon:confused:). Ben might have manipulated Sayid into helping him (although I get the impression Sayid is not one to be easily manipulated) but if Sayid wants to protect his friends he probably has to do as Ben suggests.

Flashforward Ben looked very uptight (although he rocked that vest). He needs some lovin.:naughty:

I keep thinking that Ben is the lesser of two evils, the other being the freightees et al.
Ben's fight probably has something to do with preserving the island's properties while the enemies are looking to exploit it. While Sayid is quite obviously upset and against killing these "enemies", it doesn't seem that he disagrees with the thought that they are enemies indeed.

I'm a "Ben in the coffin believer" and before this episode thought that Jack's actions regarding the obituary and funeral could foreshadow a day when we see Ben as an extremist protecting something very important about the island.

Now in FFs Ben is still giving off the evil vibe, but if his cause is to save the island b/c it has some invaluable good for the world, Jack could still have an ounce of sympathy. Jack's calling the freighter was what set all this off-island business in motion. Maybe he's simply upset that he didn't listen to Ben before making that call???

(he did say that at the end of the epi, right? that ben used a girl to trick sayid into killing for him the first time....?)

No, he said something about remember what happened the last time you thought with your heart instead of your head, meaning, I thought, possibly in dealing with the freighties. But who really knows?

But Ben is not blackmailing Sayid. Both are working to protect the island and those on it from Abadon (Abbadon or Abaddon:confused:). Ben might have manipulated Sayid into helping him (although I get the impression Sayid is not one to be easily manipulated) but if Sayid wants to protect his friends he probably has to do as Ben suggests.

Depends on how you read "you want to protect your friends don't you." Protect them from the MUCH Larger than the freightees or Abaddon Organization or from Ben??

Either way, Sayid said straight out that Ben had coeerced him into this killing mission. Doesn't mean Sayid disagrees with Ben's motivations, but definately his methods.

See this is what I didn't really understand. Jack and Hurley are falling apart and saying "We have to go back" yet this isn't happening at all for Sayid. Just seems so different from we've been teased with in the FF's up to this point.

Its not happening to Kate either or so it seems. Maybe she is working for Ben as well. Possibly in exchange for not going straight to prison once they were rescued?

But Ben is not blackmailing Sayid. Both are working to protect the island and those on it from Abadon (Abbadon or Abaddon:confused:). Ben might have manipulated Sayid into helping him (although I get the impression Sayid is not one to be easily manipulated) but if Sayid wants to protect his friends he probably has to do as Ben suggests.


Agree. But they foreshadowed on the island that Sayid CAN be tricked/mislead with the Hurley-left-behind thing.
Also, we know from many examples that Ben is a master at getting people to do what he wants them to do, but they think it's their idea. Con con con.
Alex said as much about him, remember?


I'm a "Ben in the coffin believer" and before this episode thought that Jack's actions regarding the obituary and funeral could foreshadow a day when we see Ben as an extremist protecting something very important about the island.

Now in FFs Ben is still giving off the evil vibe, but if his cause is to save the island b/c it has some invaluable good for the world, Jack could still have an ounce of sympathy. Jack's calling the freighter was what set all this off-island business in motion. Maybe he's simply upset that he didn't listen to Ben before making that call???

I really like this idea. I know people have speculated that it's Ben, but it wasn't a popular theory because we didn't expect to see him leave the island. But your reasoning makes sense. No friends, no family. That totally makes sense. He's basically never lived off of the island and he killed his father. His mother is dead. He has no friends (except for Annie... when will see her again?). So, very interesting thought that he's in the coffin.

Its not happening to Kate either or so it seems. Maybe she is working for Ben as well. Possibly in exchange for not going straight to prison once they were rescued?

We have no idea what is up with Kate in the future. To me, she seemed very unhappy. People all over the boards keep saying how good a spot Kate seems to be in when she's off the island. Good make up and hair. Fancy car. Someone to go home to. No prison. But she seems very unhappy and not just because of Jack being crazy. So I'm looking forward to see what she is going through in the future.

Personally I don't believe it was Ben in the coffin, but I do think whoever was in there was killed the last time "Sayid thought with his heart and not his gun" (or whatever the line was). I think that person's death is what Ben is referring to, keeping Sayid feeling guilty enough to do his dirty work, to protect his friends.


I disagree. If the person in the coffin meant enough to Sayid to cause him to be Ben's whipping boy, then he would have been at the funeral. Unless we later learn that he couldn't be there for some reason (death, back on the island, whatever), I don't buy that the two are connected.

I disagree. If the person in the coffin meant enough to Sayid to cause him to be Ben's whipping boy, then he would have been at the funeral. Unless we later learn that he couldn't be there for some reason (death, back on the island, whatever), I don't buy that the two are connected.

Me either, not without some solid clue, hint, proof, etc!

Its not happening to Kate either or so it seems. Maybe she is working for Ben as well. Possibly in exchange for not going straight to prison once they were rescued?

Yep, I agree, something's fishy with Kate too, and the "He" she's talking about. Is Kate working for Ben, or the person Ben is trying to hunt down (Abaddon?)?

Ben is blackmailing Sayid into doing his dirty work to protect the people who didn't get off the island... and he is also clearly implying that the people Sayid is killing are related to the freighties.
.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned. The clear evidence that the 'boat people' are the same group as who Sayid is killing now...the bracelet! Naomi was wearing one, Elsa wore one just like it. It named Naomi by an "N", and then it was signed with the initials "R.C." inside it. I can only guess Widmore, whose first name is Richard?? This really only proves out if his middle initial is 'C'..so R.C.Widmore. (Of course seeing the "Demon Deacon" before and after makes to clear connection as well.)

See how Dan reacted when Desmond mentioned Penelope Widmore? But we know they were not sent by her, but who else could have a copy of her pic with Desmond?

It seemed to me that Sayid is protecting both groups, the O-6, and the remaining Losties, and trusting a 'frieghtie' resulted in the death of one of his Losties 'friends'. Will we see that soon?

I really like the idea that Kate's also working for Ben since we know he has left the Island before and in the future. It could be that Jack was supposed to as well but the pressure of what Ben asked him to do is way too much or something. :shrug:
As far as Sayid and Ben, I in the "he's the lesser of two evils" camp. The look on Sayid's face when he shot the golfer was anything but impersonal. The golfer is in some way directly involved in something horrible happening to some the the Losties and whatever it is is impetus enough for very strange bedfellows to be made. I have a feeling that this isn't the last "what in the world??" moment we will have in connect with future Lostie alliances.

On the island,Ben and the Others haven't actually killed anybody,or ordered the deaths of anybody.
Off island,he is dishing out lists of people to kill

Does this signify an event that has changed Ben?
Ben ordred Charlie to be killed as well as Anna Lucia and Cindy. He also shot Locke in the chest. Plus he killed his own father and the rest of the Dharma people. He's always been a killer.

Just wrote up a transcript since I was rewatching on ABC.com anyway. Enjoy.


Sayid walks in, leans against doorway.

Ben: Take your shirt off.

Sayid takes his jacket and shirt off, comes in the room and sits down. Ben walks up and starts tending to the wound.

Ben: Is she dead?

Sayid: Yes.

Ben: Why didn't she kill you?

Sayid: She was trying to get information from me.

Ben: What sort of information?

Sayid: She wanted to know who I worked for. She wanted to know about you.

Ben: Of course she did. Why are you crying; because it hurts or because you were stupid enough to care for her? These people don't deserve our sympathies. Need I remind you what they did the last time you thought with your heart instead of your gun?

Sayid: You used that to recruit me to killing for you.

Ben: You wanna protect your friends or not, Sayid? I have another name for you.

Sayid: But they know I'm after them now.

Ben: Good.

So Ben is Sayid's boss. Big bombshell. But who is Elsa's boss? Is he one of the Dharma people who wasn't on the island who want to get Ben because he killed all the Dharma island people?

My best guess is Richard Widmore. See my post above. Elsa's bracelet is the same as Naomi's. Who else would get a copy of Penny's pic of her and Desmond? The other best guess is Hanso, who likely speaks German (as Elsa was to whomever was on the phone), since he is Danish, and he and Widmore financed Dharma.

There seems to be a 'war' between the Others and the 'Dharma/Hanso/Widmores' for control of the Island for the awesome power it processes.

I really like the idea that Kate's also working for Ben since we know he has left the Island before and in the future. It could be that Jack was supposed to as well but the pressure of what Ben asked him to do is way too much or something. :shrug:


I am on board with this theory. The O6 "sold their soul" to Ben to get off the island. Jack and Hurley have guilt and remorse over what they did for Ben. Kate and Sayid, who are more "cold blooded" aren't falling apart after doing Ben's evil works...Could Ben be the "he" who was going to be waiting for Kate when she met Jack in the flashforward at the airport? (as opposed to Sawyer or others speculated?)

Makes me think of when Ben had lunch with Kate at the beach ...we still don't know what they discussed ....

I really like the idea that Kate's also working for Ben since we know he has left the Island before and in the future. It could be that Jack was supposed to as well but the pressure of what Ben asked him to do is way too much or something. :shrug:
As far as Sayid and Ben, I in the "he's the lesser of two evils" camp. The look on Sayid's face when he shot the golfer was anything but impersonal. The golfer is in some way directly involved in something horrible happening to some the the Losties and whatever it is is impetus enough for very strange bedfellows to be made. I have a feeling that this isn't the last "what in the world??" moment we will have in connect with future Lostie alliances.
I am on board with this theory. The O6 "sold their soul" to Ben to get off the island. Jack and Hurley have guilt and remorse over what they did for Ben. Kate and Sayid, who are more "cold blooded" aren't falling apart after doing Ben's evil works...Could Ben be the "he" who was going to be waiting for Kate when she met Jack in the flashforward at the airport? (as opposed to Sawyer or others speculated?)

Makes me think of when Ben had lunch with Kate at the beach ...we still don't know what they discussed ....

While I also like this theory, I don't think they did it so Ben could get them off the island, since Ben doesn't want anyone to leave the island, but to make sure that the people on the island are kept safe, and no one who would "hurt" the island can get there.

This may be something....or nothing at all, but I thought it was worth mentioning to see what anyone else thought..

When I first heard the voice talking to Sayid in the vet clinic, I thought I immediately recognized the voice but I did not suspect it was Ben. The casual, unemotional, disinterested drawl sounded *EXACTLY* like a male version of Isabel's voice (aka The Sheriff, from SIASL) Go back and watch the scene in SIASL when Alex takes Jack up to the "trial" for Juliet.... Tom comes out, followed by Isabel, and she has that same, weird, distinctive drawl.. "What seems to be the problem, Tom?"

Very weird, and very noticeable... I have no idea what it could mean, if anything; but it is definitley very interesting, because that was NOT Ben's usual manner of speaking....even when he speaks calmly. It was almost as if we were meant to notice the match in the speech patterns...

His name is Charles Widmore, not Richard Widmore.

Why does everyone keep posting that Jack and Hurley are the only one's falling apart in off-island life. Sayid looked pretty darn upset in the final scene too me!

Its not happening to Kate either or so it seems. Maybe she is working for Ben as well. Possibly in exchange for not going straight to prison once they were rescued?

That same thought occured to me after this episode.

I can't believe I am the first person to think this (unless I am WAY off base) but when I first heard the voice, I thought it was Christian Sheppard. The voice was very similar, and after watching the last webisode, "... and so it begins" I figure for sure it was him.

That being said, I was pleasantly surprised to see Ben.

OMG...I totally didn't see that one coming! Now, Sayid said that everyone has a boss...who do you think Ben is working for? Why do they want to harm the O6???LOL I knew it was Ben's voice. I kept saying, "That's Ben! That's Ben!" But still, actually seeing him was still an OMG moment for sure! But I think the friends he spoke to Sayid about are those left behind on the island. It seems, to me, that Sayid is agreeing to work for Ben to protect them and eventually (because I do think Jack's story is further down from Sayid's) Jack comes around and wants to go to help them. Maybe, like someone else posted here, it's because Sayid gets killed working for Ben and maybe that's who's in the coffin. Maybe Kate didn't go because she felt that Sayid let those down on the island. It sure didn't seem like she wanted to go back with Jack.

Could this Ben be a doppleganger like the Wickmund/Holliwax/Candle thing? I just got the impression it wasn't the same Ben. At first when he was talking to sayid, he was definitely disguising his voice, and then once they showed the person's face, Ben started talking normally again. It's so odd to see Ben off the island like that, it just doesn't seem to jive with what we've been led to believe. It's a twist, but it seems too big of a twist.:confused:Nah, I think it's Ben. But do we know for certain that he was off-island? Perhaps Sayid is able to travel back and forth to and from the island the same way Ethan and Richard did. But I did find it very interesting that Ben look very similar to how he was in the photo the *rescue team* had with them.

Ok, please explain the line "remembers the last time he trusted them." Who are the pronouns? Who trusted who? And what happened? I know he's talking about something I have seen, I am just having trouble putting the pieces together.

Boyfriend immediately said "it's Ben." and then I was like "duh. wow. ." And then the reveal. Wow. Passports was a good foreshadowing.I'm in the camp that thinks it's those left on the island.

Really :confused: I could tell it was Ben from his voice before I even saw his face.

See this is what I didn't really understand. Jack and Hurley are falling apart and saying "We have to go back" yet this isn't happening at all for Sayid. Just seems so different from we've been teased with in the FF's up to this point.
Those passports were totally unexpected for me! I just never thought of him leaving but letting the others do that (like Richard and Ethan).

I mentioned this as well....because we don't know for sure that the final scene *wasn't* on the Island.... I heard some argument about Sayid being wounded so badly that he could not have made a long trip.... but do we *really* know how long of a trip it would be?? I for one think the possibility exists that this last scene could have took place on the Island... but on that note, where the hell would all of the dogs come from?? LOL

A couple of strange thoughts come to mind. When Ben says "I have a new name for you," is it possible he is talking about a new name for Sayid himself, as in Sayid changing his name?

When Ben referred to Sayid using his heart instead of his gun, the first scene that popped into my head was when he helped Nadia escape in "Solitary". Which is ironic seeing as how he used his gun twice there :D It could be that the Republican Guard (incidentally, R.G.) didn't buy his story about Nadia shooting him, they arranged to have him on this flight to be banished to the island, and then... well, hell if i know.

Would someone humor me by watching the Isabel scene in SIASL and comparing her tone to the same tone Ben used last night when admonishing Sayid.... I'm telling you it's eerie how alike they sound, and Ben has *never* sounded like that before... just hoping someone will pop in the DVD and watch that scene, then watch Ben's ending scene from last night...it will make me doubt my sanity a little less.. LOL :biggrin:

Really :confused: I could tell it was Ben from his voice before I even saw his face.
Me too, was slightly distorted but the intonation was exactly the same.

I think the majority of the scene was Ben's voice (distorted)....but there is one section that I think was the voice used for Jacob....Carlton's voice (also distorted).

I was completely spoiled, so I wasn't paying any attention to the distortion of the voice, just waiting for Ben to appear.

Cardie

Just wrote up a transcript since I was rewatching on ABC.com anyway. Enjoy.


Sayid walks in, leans against doorway.

Ben: Take your shirt off.

Sayid takes his jacket and shirt off, comes in the room and sits down. Ben walks up and starts tending to the wound.

Ben: Is she dead?

Sayid: Yes.

Ben: Why didn't she kill you?

Sayid: She was trying to get information from me.

Ben: What sort of information?

Sayid: She wanted to know who I worked for. She wanted to know about you.

Ben: Of course she did. Why are you crying; because it hurts or because you were stupid enough to care for her? These people don't deserve our sympathies. Need I remind you what they did the last time you thought with your heart instead of your gun?

Sayid: You used that to recruit me to killing for you.

Ben: You wanna protect your friends or not, Sayid? I have another name for you.

Sayid: But they know I'm after them now.

Ben: Good.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

I am on board with this theory. The O6 "sold their soul" to Ben to get off the island. Jack and Hurley have guilt and remorse over what they did for Ben. Kate and Sayid, who are more "cold blooded" aren't falling apart after doing Ben's evil works...Could Ben be the "he" who was going to be waiting for Kate when she met Jack in the flashforward at the airport? (as opposed to Sawyer or others speculated?)

Makes me think of when Ben had lunch with Kate at the beach ...we still don't know what they discussed ....

I like your idea that Ben could be the one back at Kate's.... but she is mentioning it as if Jack knows who the "him" is, and I can't imagine Jack would EVER be able to deal with Kate working with Ben in some close-knit way.

I mentioned this as well....because we don't know for sure that the final scene *wasn't* on the Island.... I heard some argument about Sayid being wounded so badly that he could not have made a long trip.... but do we *really* know how long of a trip it would be?? I for one think the possibility exists that this last scene could have took place on the Island... but on that note, where the hell would all of the dogs come from?? LOL

Never thought of that. Great idea. But what's with the dogs???
Also I think we are meant to connect the passports (Ben traveling off island) with that scene. But now that you've mentioned this idea, I'm keeping the possibility open that the scene is on the island.

Would someone humor me by watching the Isabel scene in SIASL and comparing her tone to the same tone Ben used last night when admonishing Sayid.... I'm telling you it's eerie how alike they sound, and Ben has *never* sounded like that before... just hoping someone will pop in the DVD and watch that scene, then watch Ben's ending scene from last night...it will make me doubt my sanity a little less.. LOL :biggrin:

Don't need to watch. I know what you're saying. But I don't think it means anything other than that were slightly masquerading Ben's voice. Sorry.

I was completely spoiled, so I wasn't paying any attention to the distortion of the voice, just waiting for Ben to appear.

Cardie

omg so glad I'm spoiler-free now!!

remember the line when Ben mentioned that Sayid had once followed his heart instead of his head?
and Sayid said something along the lines of "and you used that to recruit me"?It was, "instead of your gun," which is much more sinister.

I assume it has something to do with Nadia (one of the few remaining unresolved flashback stories). The obvious thing would be Nadia getting killed because Sayid lets his guard down once he gets off the island, but I'm not sure he would need Ben to "recruit" him if it meant avenging her death...

Perhaps Nadia is one of the people on the freighter? (She did supposedly last work in a "medical testing company" in California..) Maybe her presence softens Sayid's attitude towards the Freighties, ultimately leading to some major unpleasantness...

Interesting idea... Nadia on the freighter. Hm. It'd be nice to have her be a recurring FB character that merges with the regular story, like Cooper and Christian both did.

We'll see!

He may be working to protect the island, but Ben can't be considered good. The man is pure evil, and since God can't find the island, he may never have to repent.

When was it said that God can't find the island? That's really interesting.

It does certainly seem that Ben is evil. I just keep remembering the line in Expose where Hurley talks about the supposed villain being revealed as the hero in Season 4, which would be none other than - BEN! Surely not. But, this is Lost.

With all the mirror opposites running around, it really makes me wonder if that's not Ben - it's an evil twin, or clone, or something. His voice being different would support that.

When was it said that God can't find the island? That's really interesting.

It was in the episode "Dave" during the second season. Ben (going as "Gale") was a prisoner in the Hatch and Sayid had just found out he was lying about being Henry Gale.

LOCKE: Did you get caught on purpose? You and your people have been here for God knows how long, and you got caught in a net...
GALE: God doesn't know.
LOCKE: Excuse me?
GALE: God doesn't know how long we've been here, John. He can't see this island any better than the rest of the world can.

It does certainly seem that Ben is evil. I just keep remembering the line in Expose where Hurley talks about the supposed villain being revealed as the hero in Season 4, which would be none other than - BEN!Actually, it was the other way around...the supposed hero was revealed to be the main villain. Which would be none other than - JACK!

Nothing to add to the topic (apologies), but I like your avi, BoogaFrito...

It was in the episode "Dave" during the second season. Ben (going as "Gale") was a prisoner in the Hatch and Sayid had just found out he was lying about being Henry Gale.

LOCKE: Did you get caught on purpose? You and your people have been here for God knows how long, and you got caught in a net...
GALE: God doesn't know.
LOCKE: Excuse me?
GALE: God doesn't know how long we've been here, John. He can't see this island any better than the rest of the world can.

Thanks for this, and for the correction on the hero being the villian.

I think there are two Bens.. and the one Sayid is working for is NOT island Ben... I think he is the Ben of the photograph. Island Ben hasn't left the island-- but his clone has.

Remember the multiplying bunnies from the Orchid orientation film?They weren't clones but the same rabbit that traveled through time and met its doppleganger (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unexplained-mysteries.com%2Fviewarticle.php%3Fid%3D201&ei=V0e7R8HuF5OkpATVicWnDQ&usg=AFQjCNE0zN3nqcFA6so-ox5y3O3RbKX4UA&sig2=rUV29NkshRGFz9iAj_tSCA).

At first I thought Ben was just using the vet office to fix Sayid or maybe using it as a cover for his covert activities. But I suppose it's possible Ben is stuck off island working to protect the island from the outside while Locke watches over from within. Maybe he does pass himself off as a vet. That way he can have as many white bunnies as he wants. :bunny::bunny:

But Ben is not blackmailing Sayid. Both are working to protect the island and those on it from Abadon (Abbadon or Abaddon:confused:). Ben might have manipulated Sayid into helping him (although I get the impression Sayid is not one to be easily manipulated) but if Sayid wants to protect his friends he probably has to do as Ben suggests.

Flashforward Ben looked very uptight (although he rocked that vest). He needs some lovin.:naughty:Must make a point to agree with you on Ben and his vest (and the rest :redface: ). I am so happy that he LIVES ... more Ben for us to :drool: over. :biggrin:

I keep thinking that Ben is the lesser of two evils, the other being the freightees et al.

Ben's fight probably has something to do with preserving the island's properties while the enemies are looking to exploit it. While Sayid is quite obviously upset and against killing these "enemies", it doesn't seem that he disagrees with the thought that they are enemies indeed.

I'm a "Ben in the coffin believer" and before this episode thought that Jack's actions regarding the obituary and funeral could foreshadow a day when we see Ben as an extremist protecting something very important about the island.

Now in FFs Ben is still giving off the evil vibe, but if his cause is to save the island b/c it has some invaluable good for the world, Jack could still have an ounce of sympathy. Jack's calling the freighter was what set all this off-island business in motion. Maybe he's simply upset that he didn't listen to Ben before making that call???I'm still not sold on Ben being in the coffin. I simply can't imagine Jack expecting Kate to be there. Also the obit said he had a teenage son. That still points more to Michael than anyone that we know so far.

Yep, I agree, something's fishy with Kate too, and the "He" she's talking about. Is Kate working for Ben, or the person Ben is trying to hunt down (Abaddon?)?OH! I never thought of that! "He" could be Ben ... or Jacob. :insert evil laugh HERE:
I mentioned this as well....because we don't know for sure that the final scene *wasn't* on the Island.... I heard some argument about Sayid being wounded so badly that he could not have made a long trip.... but do we *really* know how long of a trip it would be?? I for one think the possibility exists that this last scene could have took place on the Island... but on that note, where the hell would all of the dogs come from?? LOLYeah, the dogs kind of throw a monkey wrench into that theory but all I'm saying is that we shouldn't assume he's off island is all.

A couple of strange thoughts come to mind. When Ben says "I have a new name for you," is it possible he is talking about a new name for Sayid himself, as in Sayid changing his name?

When Ben referred to Sayid using his heart instead of his gun, the first scene that popped into my head was when he helped Nadia escape in "Solitary". Which is ironic seeing as how he used his gun twice there :D It could be that the Republican Guard (incidentally, R.G.) didn't buy his story about Nadia shooting him, they arranged to have him on this flight to be banished to the island, and then... well, hell if i know.I took it to mean a literal new name. He does go under cover and now that they know he's after them, using his own name would be kind of foolish.

jbdean i feel teh same way, that island Ben and germany ben are different people. I have not had a chance to revist the show from the other seasons but wasn't their one with twin int he title? There has to be a clue in that ep.

Well maybe its just me...but I assumed that the change in Ben's voice was due to him taking off a surgical mask that had been muffling his voice up to then?? When he removed the mask (off camera) we heard the 'normal' Ben voice...I never thought any more about it!!! Maybe I should have??