NOTE: I posted this exact same message on Sledgeweb's site, but wanted to share it here as well. Hope you don't mind.

Okay. I almost hate to do this, but the time threads are so convoluted I can't get through them. Hope it hasn't been discussed this way yet.
Theory: The rocket took 3 hours and 16 minutes to reach the island, not 31 minutes.

Here we go.

Scene: Sayid notifies Jack of the Penny/Desmond Px found on Naomi.
Jack then asks Juliet...how long to go to the beach and back to get Desmond. She says about (about...) 2 hours. STOP.

Here's a clue. Jack knows how long it takes to get to the beach. Why'd he ask that? Answer: A clue for us.

That is the last time that we actually get time references to events on the island...but keep the above in mind....An undetermined amount of time...after Juliet leaves, Daniel begins his experiment. Notice as he goes through his box, after he picks up the major piece of equipment, the "2:45" TIMER (not clock) is under that piece of equipment.
Back and forth conversation with Lapidus about the phone...Last thing Daniel does is... watch it again... start the timer and say to Regina send the payload. It doesn't arrive when he thinks it should.

The episode continues to play out, then...we're back to Daniel and the experiment. Watch what happens. Rocket arrives, Daniel says "finally." ... takes timer from rocket and LOOKS AT HIS WATCH on his wrist. Gets concerned. Runs to the TIMER from his box and compares the times 2:45 vs 3:16. 31 minutes..."This is not good"...

Time passage clue: Immediately, Lapidus says, "your friends are back." Julliet has returned from the beach....concluding her approximate journey of two hours.
The trip to the beach started an unknown amount of time prior to the experiment, and may or may not have taken more than 2 hours.

Conclusion: It didn't take the rocket 31 minutes to arrive. It took 3 hours +
2:45...the timer ran for 2 hours and 45 minutes. The rocket timer ran for 3:16. My lack of math skills shows me a 16% time differential.

What say you.

My head hurts

Wow! I love this Theory.
Well picked up on the Fact that juliet said it would take 2 hours to get to the beach and back. Love it!

NOTE: IAn undetermined amount of time...after Juliet leaves, Daniel begins his experiment.

The trip to the beach started an unknown amount of time prior to the experiment, and may or may not have taken more than 2 hours.



I'm confused - if the experiment started BEFORE they left, your theory seems correct. But if it started AFTER, then I don't see how it's meaningful, because we don't know how much time elapsed between the time they left and the time the rocket was launched. Which one is right?

Very nice. Didnt really notice that until I read this post.
You cant really know though how long it really did take Juliet or if she did walked all the way to the beach or found Des somewhere in the middle, but it mustve taken more than 31 minutes.
The point of this clue I think was to make us not take all what Daniel says for granted.

Theory: The rocket took 3 hours and 16 minutes to reach the island, not 31 minutes.



The difference on the clocks is 31 minutes. How long the rocket exactly took is unclear and of less importance.
The time difference is the interesting part.

Nice theory, I will have to rewatch the episode and get back to you with some thoughts. One thing that pops in my head though, is the rockets apparent speed/distance, morely speed though.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=89011
above is a thread that I had started on the rocket speed, etc.
Anyway, at rocket speeds (pretty F'ing fast, lol) and a 3hr 16 min trip.. makes me think of the chopper (which travels a lot slower).
So I guess my question is.. How long did it take the chopper to get to the island??
Not even counting fuel X as a factor, just time.






"Driveshaft, more like Suckshaft"

Watch again. Daniel never touches the clock (or timer) when the rocket is launched. He presses buttons on the other devices he took out of the case, but nothing else. He apparently took out the clock after that scene.

Also, many scenes happened after Juliet left on her "about two hour" trip. The only scenes that happened between the launch and landing is the sayid et al finding and talking to Hurley. Then when we come back, Frank and Jack are still having the same conversation as when the rocket launched. So it doesn't seem possible to me that it was a timer, although that was my assumption the first time I watched it.

So it doesn't seem possible to me that it was a timer, although that was my assumption the first time I watched it.

Not arguing, just theorizing...and the fuel does become an issue, but Daniel checks his wrist watch...then gets the timer/clock thingy. I hadn't notcied the topic of conversation as I focused in on Daniel's actions.

I remain confused...but...I still believe what we need to know is in this episode.

2 hours to the beach
100 days.
28 second supposed travel time.
2:45
3:16.

It doesn't make sense to me to run a "timed" experiment with clocks not timers. But again, still just thinking outloud. I wonder if the enhanced version will shed some light.

The difference on the clocks is 31 minutes. How long the rocket exactly took is unclear and of less importance.
The time difference is the interesting part.

QFT..

Yeah, I think you might be on to something. And in the end, how long it took Juliette is irrelevant, other giving a very general reference. If they are in fact timers, not clocks, then its clear that it took the rocket 3:16 to get to the island.

The fact remains, whether you think they are timers or clocks, the 31 minute difference isn't the length of time it took the rocket to get to the island, its simply a difference in elapsed time. Also, again, regardless of whether they are clocks or timers, the fact that its the rocket timer, not the island timer that is ahead runs counter intuitive to everything one would assume about time travel.

The difference on the clocks is 31 minutes. How long the rocket exactly took is unclear and of less importance.
The time difference is the interesting part.

Hold on a tick. Yes the 31 minute difference is interesting, but I'm also fascinated by the idea that it took the rocket something close to three hours to get to the island from a freighter parked 80 nautical miles off shore. That seems awfully damned long for a rocket to cover that distance. Don't those things usually move pretty fast?

I agree that how long Juliet took to get to the beach and back is not particularly useful, but it would be great if some of you nice math geeks could factor in the 80 nautical miles distance (freighter) to all that and see what you come up with? TIA. :)

The difference on the clocks is 31 minutes. How long the rocket exactly took is unclear and of less importance.
The time difference is the interesting part.

I disagree. I think a rocket taking over 3 hours to arrive when it should have taken 28 seconds would be pretty important.

If this theorey holds, then there are really two important and interesting things to take from that experiment.

1) The rocket taking too long to arrive, and
2) the discrepency between the clocks.

Hey Lost Ed,

Nice work, calculating the rocket's arrival time from Juliet's estimated trip time! I'm not sure your numbers are right, but that's because my brain is so fried from the time threads that I can't really bring myself to crunch them. Sounds very plausible.

I'm the guy started one of the "What are the clocks wrong???" thread. I'm just chiming in here because I see you guys wrestling with a lot of the same things we already covered (after many wild goose chases, at least on my end). So maybe I can help. The conclusion I've come to is that

1). The clocks on the island and rocket are right
2). The explanation of the time differential *has* to be different than the reason the rocket arrived three hours late (as you're calculating based on Juliet's trip)

Here's where I try to explain why I think they've gotta have separate explanations
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1769820&postcount=127

FYI, here also, is a link to my current best theory explaning what happened:
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1769820&postcount=127

Short answer: wormhole.

Happy hunting, guys! :biggrin:

Did even anyone wonder, if a rocket of this size can fly such a long time?

Daniel can hold this rocket with one hand while screwing off the top. I would guess, it would weigh something about 10 kilogramms.

This means 10 kilogramms (when burned out!) to push for 3.25 hours against gravity and air resistance at a speed of 40km in a couple of seconds with a rocket that's what about one meter long. I'm right now not smart enough to calculate for my books are all still in packing cases. If anyone would give it a shot, ...

Otherway around: 40 km in half a minute. That means 15,600 km in 195 minutes. That's more than a third around the earth at equator. It's approx. 10,000 km between Washington D.C. and Baghdad for instance.

I just doubt the timer's correct.

(Or is it worse and Regina counted in miles?)

My head hurts

Me, too. Is there such a thing as virtual asprin?

Did even anyone wonder, if a rocket of this size can fly such a long time?
LOL I was going to post about this -but you beat me to it. I doubt if it could carry enough fuel for 31 minutes of flight much less several hours.


Assumption 1. Regina fired the rocket when she said, not later.
Assumption 2. Regina set the timer/clock to match Faraday's, not at a time 31 minutes off (good practical joke on a nerd):biggrin:
Assumption 3. The rocket carried more fuel that its size would indicate it should be able to carry and thus could burn for the extra time even though a rocket carrying excess fuel for an extended burn past its expected flight profile makes no sense to me.
Assumption 4 Something slowed the rocket down at the end of its flight since at the speed it was traveling the impact should have left a good sized crater, damaged the helicopter and knocked Faraday for a loop.

Edited to delete remark about time rates because I saw my own error.

Wormhole...has anybody in the show had a name similar to any of the Stargate SG1 or Atlantis personnel??

Fuel...an unknown something happened which could take fuel out of the equation.

I'm gonna start a thread about technical advisers.

Here I go

Fuel...an unknown something happened which could take fuel out of the equation.

Althought it seems unlikely for such a short distance/expected time interval, it could have been a staged rocket. What landed on the island was only the payload portion.

Has anyone considered that the rocket wasn't launched from the freighter? That just occured to me...

Did even anyone wonder, if a rocket of this size can fly such a long time?

I love this discussion - will check out the other one as well.

Here's my take: the rocket didn't fly for over three hours, it just arrived 3 hours later. In the rocket's timeframe, it happened in a matter of seconds, from the island perspective, it took 3+ hours. Perhaps not the time differential of time travel, but simply the time differential of relativity. Not to say I understand it. My father was a physicist. I never got it when he explained it either.

Althought it seems unlikely for such a short distance/expected time interval, it could have been a staged rocket. What landed on the island was only the payload portion.

Has anyone considered that the rocket wasn't launched from the freighter? That just occured to me...I feel a launch from the freighter was strongly implied.

I have seen 2 possibilities discussed 1 different time rates for on and off the island and 2 the rocket taking a longer than expected flight due to some barrier effect or wormhole or etc.. Of those 2 theories I feel the time rate difference results in the most discrepencies between what we have seen on the show and what should have occured if a time difference does exist. I lean towards the longer than expected flight because it results in fewer conflicts with what we have seen.

Wormhole...has anybody in the show had a name similar to any of the Stargate SG1 or Atlantis personnel??

Crap - I'm waiting for a Time Lord reference. Who'll be called "the good doctor"?

I posted this elsewhere just after the episode aired, but it may be of importance here as well.

I originally calculated that the distance from the theoretical location of the island (4.815, 162.342) to the Trench is about 3,000 miles. If something were to hover over a point above this location it would take about 3 hours for the earth to rotate to the area of the Trench. If there were a wormhole, it could cause a 3hr differential in time, and 3,000 mile differential. I dismissed it originally, because I assumed the 31 minutes was correct, which would only equate to 500 miles.

Also of interesting note: Sydney is equidistant from the point (4.815, 162.342), from parts of the Trench and from areas within Antarctica that could potential have "listening posts".

Just food for thought.

Cheers!

Are u guys that are saying differential actually meaning difference? Because there is a difference between the two things.

NOTE: I posted this exact same message on Sledgeweb's site, but wanted to share it here as well. Hope you don't mind.

Okay. I almost hate to do this, but the time threads are so convoluted I can't get through them. Hope it hasn't been discussed this way yet.
Theory: The rocket took 3 hours and 16 minutes to reach the island, not 31 minutes.

Here we go.

Scene: Sayid notifies Jack of the Penny/Desmond Px found on Naomi.
Jack then asks Juliet...how long to go to the beach and back to get Desmond. She says about (about...) 2 hours. STOP.

Here's a clue. Jack knows how long it takes to get to the beach. Why'd he ask that? Answer: A clue for us.

That is the last time that we actually get time references to events on the island...but keep the above in mind....An undetermined amount of time...after Juliet leaves, Daniel begins his experiment. Notice as he goes through his box, after he picks up the major piece of equipment, the "2:45" TIMER (not clock) is under that piece of equipment.
Back and forth conversation with Lapidus about the phone...Last thing Daniel does is... watch it again... start the timer and say to Regina send the payload. It doesn't arrive when he thinks it should.

The episode continues to play out, then...we're back to Daniel and the experiment. Watch what happens. Rocket arrives, Daniel says "finally." ... takes timer from rocket and LOOKS AT HIS WATCH on his wrist. Gets concerned. Runs to the TIMER from his box and compares the times 2:45 vs 3:16. 31 minutes..."This is not good"...

Time passage clue: Immediately, Lapidus says, "your friends are back." Julliet has returned from the beach....concluding her approximate journey of two hours.
The trip to the beach started an unknown amount of time prior to the experiment, and may or may not have taken more than 2 hours.

Conclusion: It didn't take the rocket 31 minutes to arrive. It took 3 hours +
2:45...the timer ran for 2 hours and 45 minutes. The rocket timer ran for 3:16. My lack of math skills shows me a 16% time differential.

What say you.
Well thought out and observant, but I can't subscribe to this.

1) Sometime after Juliette leaves for the beach, Syaid tells Miles that they will be leaving for Otherville in 10 minutes. Daniel does not begin his expiriment until sometime after that. I'm guessing the earliest it could have been was 15 minutes, but it could have just as easily been over an hour.

2) Regina counts down the distance from the beacon the rocket is traveling. It appears to be paced at somewhere near 2 kilometers per second. The rocket landed (from Regina's viewpoint) in less than 30 seconds.

Therefore, the only significance to this event is the 31 minute time difference on the clocks.

So, what are the possibilities here?

1) The island is exactly and always 31 minutes ahead of the outside world.

2) The island time is speeding up to a point where it will eventually coincide with the outside world. Perhaps, it may even pass the outside world. That could be bad.

3) The island time is set at a ratio with the outside world. For example, if the freightees landed 12 hours ago outside time, 12.5 hours have passed on the island. The equates to a one hour per day differential. So, for every 92 years that passes outside, only 96 years pass on the island. In the perspective of the losties, they have been on the island for 100 island days, which would be about 104 outside days. This idea creates a paradox in my mind... because it is relative to the amount of time one spends on the island. Therefore, when a person leaves the island, it is uncertain as to what time they will wind up in.

4) Dang. I've just confused myself. :confused: I'm still pretty sure about the first half of this post. Can I get a little help here?

The faster payload clock still does not concern me. It's not the payload that's ahead, it's the island that's behind. No need to throw out relativity!

Ouch, my head hurts too, but this stuff is fascinating! Here's my thinking:

Assuming nobody's trying to trick Daniel, from Regina's perspective (and from the rocket's), about 20 or so seconds passed from the time the rocket left the freighter to the time it arrived on target. I would guess that if something slowed the rocket down somehow, it would never have landed on target. It landed precisely where it should have been, so it must have traveled the exact speed and distance it was supposed to. Otherwise, it probably would have landed in the water.

Given that, I would conclude that the Island is inside some kind of temporal anomaly. Time probably flows more slowly on the Island than in the rest of the world. That's probably the only way to explain why the rocket showed up 31 minutes late, and Walt appeared to be 4 years older (I know we don't know that was really Walt, but let's just say), when he left only a couple of months ago. I'm guessing time flows at a slower rate/ratio than the rest of the world.

(On a side note, if we're talking about poles, I would guess we're dealing with the North Pole rather than the South, just based on the polar bears [rather than penguins])

Also, I think Daniel had clocks rather than timers, since he whispered to himself that it was 31 minutes off, rather than saying it out loud.

Althought it seems unlikely for such a short distance/expected time interval, it could have been a staged rocket. What landed on the island was only the payload portion.

Has anyone considered that the rocket wasn't launched from the freighter? That just occured to me...

I was thinking its not from a freighter..... I'm not even convinced there even is a freighter. not til i see it!
Anyway, if not a freighter, I was thinking maybe it came from either Portland or Sydney?

In my case: (dif·fer·en·tial) (dif”ər-en´shəl) [L. differre to carry apart] pertaining to a difference or differences.

I will use "difference" if it soothes everyone.

I think the Freighter believes it is "80 Miles (130 Kilometers) off the coast" from a signal (the anomaly, the tower message, something). But they are not actually 80 Miles off the coast of anything but a wormhole.

The Trench was brought up for good reason in Season 3 and now again in Season 4. There are 2 (or more) Flight 815 wreckage locations, because there are infinite dimensions where one could have crashed in the Trench, one at the Island, etc. I think they are closer to the Trench or to Antarctica than they are to a tropical island. North East of Australia.

Time is not relevant, I think.

Although it might not carry much weight, I just wnted to point out that in the recent podcast, Damon and Carlton mentioned the "clock" in the rocket, not timer.

Two hour trip to the beach or not, here's a great take on the 31 minutes from J Wood http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=2933#more-2933:

"Daniel Faraday conducts an experiment where he has Regina on the freighter fire a rocket with a clock in it onto the island. The rocket doesn't land when it should. When Faraday opens the rocket and checks the clock against his clocks on the island, he finds that the island is about 31 minutes behind time on the freighter. That's a significant 31 minutes; if you start at the very beginning of the episode and skip ahead 31 minutes (sans commercials), you'll be at the beginning of the pivotal scene where Sayid and Elsa are in bed. If you take the scene where Sayid tells Elsa he's in Germany to kill her boss and go back 31 minutes, you're at the beginning of the golf course scene where he shoots Avellino. This may be just a simple coincidence and an intriguing play on spacetime, but coincidence may be too simple an explanation (and if it's just a coincidence, it's damn cool and damn convenient)."

Well thought out and observant, but I can't subscribe to this.

1) Sometime after Juliette leaves for the beach, Syaid tells Miles that they will be leaving for Otherville in 10 minutes. Daniel does not begin his expiriment until sometime after that. I'm guessing the earliest it could have been was 15 minutes, but it could have just as easily been over an hour...

Therefore, the only significance to this event is the 31 minute time difference on the clocks.

The 3 hours didn't come from a measurement based on when Juliette says or does anything. It comes from the idea that there are timers and not clocks in this episode. Which would mean that the rocket timer had been running for 3 hours and 16 minutes when it landed. The whole bit about when Juliette left and came back was just offered as additional support. But regardless of that, there's the time on the clock.

Oh, and putting things in bold don't make them any more convincing. ;)

I say good approach to the topic, as there really are so many theories:thumb_up:

The problem is there isn't exact knowledge where Juliet actually met Desmond. He could have been wondering towards them and they met at the jungle.

Also no information what exact time Juliet left at the beach.

Otherwise it really took 2 hours to go back and forth.

I agree these are timers not clocks. This was a scientific experiment, they would have used timers.

I guess what sums it up for me is Danny says 31 minutes, second he didn't start the experiment exactly when Juliette left or right after either.

The 3 hours didn't come from a measurement based on when Juliette says or does anything. It comes from the idea that there are timers and not clocks in this episode. Which would mean that the rocket timer had been running for 3 hours and 16 minutes when it landed. The whole bit about when Juliette left and came back was just offered as additional support. But regardless of that, there's the time on the clock.

Oh, and putting things in bold don't make them any more convincing. ;)
Putting things in bold makes them stand out, that's all.

And winking doesn't make you cute.

And spoiler tags are even more effective than italics when you want to get the point across that according to the last podcast, they're clocks.

First of all, I think we need to dumb this up some. Regina didn't start the clock/timer. Daniel did it sometime while he was on the freighter. Regina just simply fired the rocket and tracked it's course. There just wasn't enough time for her to answer the phone, run over to the rocket, unscrew the rocket, synchronize the clock/timer to Daniel's clock/timer, screw the rocket back together, put it in the launcher, run back to the control tower and fire the rocket. Their conversation was very brief before she fired it. So it didn't take 3 hours 45 minutes to get to the island. It only took the 31 minutes and 18 seconds.

Not arguing, just theorizing...and the fuel does become an issue, but Daniel checks his wrist watch...then gets the timer/clock thingy. I hadn't notcied the topic of conversation as I focused in on Daniel's actions.

I remain confused...but...I still believe what we need to know is in this episode.

2 hours to the beach
100 days.
28 second supposed travel time.
2:45
3:16.

It doesn't make sense to me to run a "timed" experiment with clocks not timers. But again, still just thinking outloud. I wonder if the enhanced version will shed some light.

It's implied in the current podcast that the timing device was a .....


... clock.

I think they were trying to get across to the casual viewer that it's a time difference and a clock was the easiest way to do this. A timer would be more scientific but if you were trying to communicate the notion that time is running slower then a clock is a more direct way of doing it to your audience, who might not all be inclined to run off an research the history of 'rocket with clock onboard' experiments.

I love this discussion - will check out the other one as well.

Here's my take: the rocket didn't fly for over three hours, it just arrived 3 hours later. In the rocket's timeframe, it happened in a matter of seconds, from the island perspective, it took 3+ hours. Perhaps not the time differential of time travel, but simply the time differential of relativity. Not to say I understand it. My father was a physicist. I never got it when he explained it either.

Dare we hope we will get answers TONIGHT??? (I am soo excited - this week has seemed like a year!)

They may be calling it a (see spoilers above)...but they also keep calling it a cow.

I'm just saying...

And putting it in bold makes me read it real loud in my head.

I agree these are timers not clocks. This was a scientific experiment, they would have used timers.
Except that timers requires synchronizing them at launch, which is inherently difficult, since they are at two different places. So I think he used clocks, so he could have them synchronized beforehand, and see any difference that occurred. Besides, 2 hrs and 45 minutes just doesn't fit. If that were the case, they would have put more scenes between the launch and landing.

So it didn't take 3 hours 45 minutes to get to the island. It only took the 31 minutes and 18 seconds.
Well, that wouldn't make sense either. If the rocket's clock was 31 minutes faster, instead of slower, then maybe. I think the only thing it can reasonably mean is that the helicopter experienced a time jump when approaching the island that was 31 minutes and 18 seconds greater than the one experienced by the rocket.

Well, that wouldn't make sense either. If the rocket's clock was 31 minutes faster, instead of slower, then maybe. I think the only thing it can reasonably mean is that the helicopter experienced a time jump when approaching the island that was 31 minutes and 18 seconds greater than the one experienced by the rocket.


If it's a clock as confirmed by the podcast then it implies either different 'time jumps' have been experienced or time has flowed at different rates on/off island during the time that the Freighties have spent on the Island.

it implies either different 'time jumps' have been experienced or time has flowed at different rates on/off island during the time that the Freighties have spent on the Island.
Except that the rocket didn't show up until much later than it was supposed to. Therefore there are time jumps. (Yes, I'm discounting the theory that the rocket just went "the long way".)

Except that the rocket didn't show up until much later than it was supposed to. Therefore there are time jumps. (Yes, I'm discounting the theory that the rocket just went "the long way".)

But the ship that fired the rocket actually tracked the rocket reaching the beacon when it 'should have'.

Seems to me there could be a relativistic effect linked to a time disparity in play.

And the wild card is why it's possible to carry out a seemingly non-delayed, real time conversation on those 'sat phone' type things.