I kind of hijacked another thread so I'm starting over with this one...*

Others' misfortunes worked out as luck for Hurley:* the hurricanes (orange futures), the sneaker factory burning (overinsured) the L.A.P.D. paying off a lawsuit for false arrest...* (And as an aside -- everything but the L.A.P.D. has shown up in some form:* Locke's orange smile in the pilot, his working at the box factory, and that sneaker dangling from the tree.)

So did some misfortune happen to the box company that benefitted both Hurley and Locke?

This is what the transcripts say:

LOCKE:* I have never felt so alive.* *Getting to finally tell Randy off was ... uh ... life-changing.* *I mean it.* Now I'm free to do all those things I ever wanted to do, things that I know I was destined to do, like we talked about, Helen.

And later...

I haven't even told you the best part.* .......[blahblah ]...........Yeah, well, I'm gonna do it.* I'm flying to Australia at the end of the week.* And I've, uh ... I bought two tickets.*

Okay, now that smacks of something besides Locke just going on a vacation, doesn't it?* He gets to tell Randy off... why?* Not because he's leaving for a vacation, even Locke must realize he has to come back.*

And the Walkabout wasn't the best part, that seems to be a result of something else.* "Here's what happened, and oh by the way, the best part ...."* doesn't that sound like a result?
--------------------

That's how that whole tangent got started, and I'm making a new thread out of it so as not to clutter up Mander's thread.* And because Bess asked.* :)

----

Edit: shortened the thread title, it was taking up two spaces.

I think we (well at least I) need to review the entire scene in full context to truly examine the possibilities here. Does anyone have a link to the transcript of this episode?

Kato....

It's really weird you posted this idea. * I was just re-watching Walkabout the other day... * I have both those quotes written in my notes....


I think Locke finally stood up to Randy, told him off, and got fired. *

There's a million things that could have happened.

But you're right, i think we'll see later how Locke and his Box Co. come into play with Hurley.

Hey everyone :)
I just re watch some of the mentioned scenes....and I'm not so sure :-\
Locke was obviously intimidated by Randy.....and I think when he was talking to Helen he was just trying to impress her by saying he told his Boss off....when in fact all he did was mumble under his breath "...just don't tell me what I can't do".
The Locke we see at the Box factory is a very different person to the one we see after the crash....

Yes the Box factory link is very intriguing...I think there is more to come on that ;)

and I think when he was talking to Helen he was just trying to impress her by saying he told his Boss off....when in fact all he did was mumble under his breath "...just don't tell me what I can't do".
The Locke we see at the Box factory is a very different person to the one we see after the crash....

I think you're right about Locke making it sound more impressive than it was. It's kind of the Walter Mitty thing, don't you think?

shoofire

N.E.R.D. #12

Maybe Locke got laid off, and he got to yell at his boss? And he described Australia as a 'vacation'.

When you get laid off, don't you get a payment? Maybe that's what funded his Walkabout...

Of course it could be that he just wanted to impress Helen, or that he snapped and told Randy off... the reason it struck me that some disaster might have befallen it -- or at least Randy -- *is this pattern:

1. Locke's orange smile, Hurley's orange futures (someone else's bad luck was his good luck).

2. *The white sneaker in the tree, Hurley's burnt but overinsured sneaker factory (someone else's bad luck was his good luck).

3. *[no sign of the L.A.P.D. that I remember], Hurley's false arrested that wins a lawsuit (someone else's bad luck was his good luck).

3. *Locke worked at a box factory in Tustin, Hurley owns a lucrative box factory in Tustin.... at the time the stockbroker (attorney) is telling Hurley about his money, *no disaster is associated with the box company -- unlike the other three items.

So I'm speculating that something happened to that box company that set Locke free. *

Here's the transcript -- the bolding is mine.

(Locke is on the phone.) *

LOCKE: *(to phone) *Getting to finally tell Randy off was ... uh ... life-changing. *

FAR SHOT OF THE ONE-ROOM APARTMENT

(Locke is sitting upright on the bed. *There's a large American flag pinned to
the wall over his dresser. *The rest of the one-room apartment is cluttered.)

LOCKE: *(to phone) *I mean it. *Now I'm free to do all those things I ever
wanted to do, things that I know I was destined to do, like we talked about,
Helen.

HELEN: *(from phone) *It's wonderful, John. *I'm happy for you. *Really.

(He reaches out an turns off the TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve
Stimulation) unit on the side of the bed. *He picks up the two airline tickets
on his lap. *He looks at them as he talks.)

JOHN LOCKE: *(to phone) *I haven't even told you the best part. *Do you remember
the ... authentic aboriginal walkabout?

HELEN: *(from phone) *Sure. *It's all you've talked about for weeks.

JOHN LOCKE: *(to phone) *Yeah, well, I'm gonna do it. *I'm flying to Australia
at the end of the week. *And I've, uh ... I bought two tickets. *

I can't help thinking that something happened to the Box Co. in the couple of weeks prior to Locke leaving for Australia.

I'd be willing to bet that when Locke approached Randy to get the vacation time, Randy might have said...."Yeah right!... *If you go, don't bother coming back!" * (I worked for a "Randy", once.)

OR

Like we already know about the Shoe factory.... *something happened to the Box Co.to make Hurley MORE money. *As a result, this somehow effected Locke.

Shoot makes a good point too. *Although, I think Locke's attitude change happened before Australia. *He sure seemd "different" to me when he was talking to the Walkabout guide. *He let that guy have it... *to no avail.

3. *Locke worked at a box factory in Tustin, Hurley owns a lucrative box factory in Tustin.... at the time the stockbroker (attorney) is telling Hurley about his money, *no disaster is associated with the box company -- unlike the other three items.

So I'm speculating that something happened to that box company that set Locke free. *



Absolutely, Kato.* I think so too.* Well put, by the way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So here's the 64000 $ question.... Were the other passengers bad luck, being in the crash and all, benefit Hurley?

He did seem AWFULLY relieved after talking to Danielle.....

Maybe Locke set the box company on fire before he left.... :laugh:

Sorry.....

;)

Maybe Locke got laid off, and he got to yell at his boss? And he described Australia as a 'vacation'.

When you get laid off, don't you get a payment? Maybe that's what funded his Walkabout...


He described it as a vacation in the first scene, but it didn't seem like a vacation in the dialogue with Helen -- it sounded like he wasn't coming back. *I mean he burned his bridges from the sound of it.

Of course, for this to be a true pattern, something or someone on the island has to be associated with the L.A.P.D. -- and so far I don't see any connection there -- but, just as an aside, the writers do seem to be sort of winking at us with some of the props.

or he did something to those numbers Randy needed at noon ...not 12:15 or 12:30..noon....something that was deterimental to the company

Yes, or that -- the disaster or whatever happened to the box company could have been something Locke himself did.

Elfdream.... well it wouldn't surprise me if a fire was involved.* *:laugh:

What if the "numbers" where in Locke's report....

Unless.....here are some options - he never planned on returning *or he did something to those numbers Randy needed at noon ...not 12:15 or 12:30..noon....something that was deterimental to the company (which would make sense that something bad would happen in light of Numbers and Hurley owning a majority share)...and his boss would take the blame...thus he would return, but not see Randy ever again.



I've been thinking a lot about this, and you're right. *It would seem that Hurley should benefit from some kind of catastrophe. *Now, if Locke was privy to information that Randy had been embezzling or something, he could have revealed it in those numbers. *Sounds like Randy had a meeting because of the deadline. *If Locke revealed embezzlement in those "numbers," it would have been lifechanging for Locke. *He would have finally stood up for himself in a meaningful way (no pun intended.) *What's more, Randy could have made money with his ill gotten gains. *When the money was recovered, because Randy was caught, this might have resulted in another windfall. * *This would also mean that when Locke returned he would have a new boss, or that he might be promoted himself. *There are really a lot of ways this could play. *I do think there is more to this story. *

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

I suppose Locke's scene in the lunchroom could continue in his next flashback. Locke could roll the dice and use a number sequence in his board game that utilized Hurley's numbers. Some freak occurrance - Deus Ex Machina - will ensue, perhap's killing Randy. Locke, on the other hand, will benefit in some way...perhaps getting some $ (settlement?) or even some use of his legs back (we actually know quite little about the true nature of his condition - some forms of MS can have periods of remission when they regain much strength.) Hurley would also, of course, benefit in some way too.

Yes, all great theories!*

Of course the numbers were already affecting the box company tangentally, because Hurley bought it with his lottery winnings... a double whammy of the numbers would certainly seal its fate.* * :o

And right, we have no real idea what Locke's "condition" is, (good point about MS), it seems to me that he would just about have to be able to walk at least a little bit or his muscles would be too atrophied to leap about after the sudden "cure."* But I'm just guessing there.

Does anybody remember anything at all that could be a wink-and-a-nod to the L.A.P.D.?*

That's all I could think of too, but it didn't fit the pattern, alas.* There were some badges flashed around in the beginning but they were Marshall badges, I think.* The handcuffs are too vague.* I mean it's possible there were two sets of them especially since they were found closed, but it's not the striking thing the orange smile and shoe were.

Oh well, dead end there!*

A link to the mysterious TPS report.

http://www.phil.frb.org/src/srcinsights/srcinsights/q3si5_03.html

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Does anyone remember how long Locke's walkabout was meant to be? Did he tell Helen? I just got the impression that he'd put in for the leave a long time ago and it was due him, so technically he could easily be planning 3-6 weeks worth of vacation. I have a mate whose annual/holiday leave had accrued or something and he took off 5 weeks with no detriment to his job standing (he'd worked there for a number of years though).

Going back to shoot's (?) theory of Locke fudging the numbers in the report or finding that Randy was embezzeling...

Wouldn't it be creepy, if the embezzelment thing were true... and so Randy sees his lawyer... in the same law building Hurley's in.... when he finds out he's caught by Locke's report.... tally hooo...he does a peter pan off the roof.... right past Hurley.... :o


:lol2: Sorry, Randy... (sigh).

Or maybe Locke embezzled the $$ and told Randy off. Locke knows Randy is a schmuck and won't catch on to his creative accounting until he is gone on "walkabout". Locke won't be coming back to his job because he doesn't want caught.

So Locke would really have stolen from Hurley. Sawyer might have inadvertently killed Christian by supplying him with his last shot of booze. These could be connections the LOST have .They've unintentionally wronged one another. :-\

Going back to shoot's (?) theory of Locke fudging the numbers in the report or finding that Randy was embezzeling...

Wouldn't it be creepy, if the embezzelment thing were true...* and so Randy sees his lawyer...* in the same law building Hurley's in....* when he finds out he's caught by Locke's report....* tally hooo...he does a peter pan off the roof....* right past Hurley.... :o


:lol2:* Sorry, Randy...* (sigh).


That's brilliant, kgmaus.* *:roflmao:

(I am suddenly reminded of those Seinfeld episodes where a bunch of seemingly unrelated events would converge at the end.)

Ohh *that's good too.

I sure would like to see Locke confronting Randy... Randy telling Locke, "But.. *you can't do that." *To which Locke will return with his famous, "Don't tell me what I can't do."

...at which point, what ever he does will have rippeling effects.

Do you think, maybe, Locke's 'condition' could have been caused by someone using the numbers? The crazy guy, was his name Lenny? The one from Hurley's ep, anyways - Could that be another connection to the island? And Hurley's connection, a second one, could have reversed it?

Sorry to break the flow of the topic...

but I just found this really interesting French Genetics Research company.

http://www.igmm.cnrs.fr/MenuGB3cadres.htm


Some of these research areas are kinda out there... so for the genetics fans... happy hunting. ;)

KG and Green,

Both of your suggestions would certainly provide the OMG! factor. *

The handcuffs are too vague. *I mean it's possible there were two sets of them especially since they were found closed, but it's not the striking thing the orange smile and shoe were.


Kato,

I'm still having trouble with Sawyer being so good with a gun. *

maybe the wink and nod is yet to come. *Or perhaps the nod is when they handcuff Jin after the fight over the watch.

I can't remember, can anyone tell me who specifically handcuffed Jin?

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

I'm pretty sure it was Sayid, he asked Sawyer to give him the cuffs and Sawyer gave them up straight away. Then I think Sayid cuffed Jin to the wreckage and told him he'd stay there until he explained why he'd attacked Michael.

What if the "numbers" where in Locke's report....


Exactly what I have been thinking !

Locke was madly going to town on a calculator when Randy was griping about getting the report. I would be very surprised if the numbers were not very prominent in the final report.

I'm pretty sure it was Sayid, he asked Sawyer to give him the cuffs and Sawyer gave them up straight away. Then I think Sayid cuffed Jin to the wreckage and told him he'd stay there until he explained why he'd attacked Michael.

OK, so, you wouldn't necessarily need another set of cuffs. *You just need someone with a key to a set of cuffs. *Right? *The wink may be that the writers don't want to give away too much about Sawyers character, but...they were in Sawyers possession when they were mysteriously opened. *Kate had to have been the last one to have the marshall's key. *That's how she got out of them. *I think it's interesting that keys have already come up twice before in Kate's storyline. There was the key that was in the marshall's wallet, AND the customer key to the lockbox. *I think I need to go look at the timeline again. *I don't know, I'm either headed somewhere or I'm just rambling.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Isn't it the way cuffs work that when they are off they are not locked because the loose part can go one way, inwards and around and around, but not the other way (outwards) without unlocking the mechanism first. So technically they are not locked until they are on someone's wrists. In the pilot it was implied that Kate had just taken them off and left them in the jungle (then Walt found them). What I don't remember is if Kate totally unlocked the cuffs on the plane or only unlocked the part that kept her hands chained to what ever it was that prevented her from reaching up.

but...they were in Sawyers possession when they were mysteriously opened.

No mystery there. Handcuffs are notoriously easy to open and Sawyer said in WTCMB (while fiddling with the Halliburton case) that there wasn't a lock he couldn't pick. Clearly he was proven wrong with the case, but the cuffs would present no problem at all to anyone with any picking skill at all.

I grew up around locksmiths. I played with several sets of cuffs, never had keys and it was never a problem.

OKOKOKOK --If there were 2 sets of handcuffs what if.......

What if Sawyer had his own cuffs (get your minds out of the gutter *;) )
What if he's not only a con man but a bounty hunter? He would have his own cuffs and this would explain his whole waiting 4yrs when *he talks to Kate.

He's seen her wanted poster and came to Australia for the bounty but fell for her along the way.
He got sidetracked by Duckett and turfed out of Australia and by chance landed on the same plane with Kate and the Marshall.

Does anyone know if a bounty hunter from U.S. could walk into Australia and retrieve a wanted felon?

Oh I get ya, I was wondering what the point of having two sets of cuffs would be, but I guess the weirdness is that Sawyer had a pair in his possession in House of the Rising Sun. I had just assumed they were Kate's cuffs, and that he'd talked Walt or Michael into giving them/trading them to him.

If Sawyer scavenged or bartered for them, he wouldn't need a key or even to unlock them. I think cuffs are technically always open due to the way the mechanism works UNTIL they are being secured around a wrist or pipe/pole.

I grew up around locksmiths. I played with several sets of cuffs, never had keys and it was never a problem

Point taken. *

Isn't it the way cuffs work that when they are off they are not locked because the loose part can go one way, inwards and around and around, but not the other way (outwards) without unlocking the mechanism first.

I have no first hand knowledge of the workings of handcuffs. * *:angel: :D

What if he's not only a con man but a bounty hunter?

I don't know how to get from here to there yet, but I'm actually thinking the connection may be much closer to the LAPD. *I don't think Sawyer is at all who he seems to be.

this would explain his whole waiting 4yrs when *he talks to Kate.


Did I miss something? * *

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

:angel: :lol2: Umm, well I have seen plastic ones... I presume they work the same *cough*.

Hey! Who took the cuffs off Jin, did they use a key or did they pick the lock?

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Jin, I think, still had one of the cuffs on recently... I think, dint Micheal axe him off the thing he was chained to?

Did I miss something?

In one of the episodes, Sawyer says something to Kate. She is straddled on top of him and he says,
"I've been waiting _____ years for this." Most people seem to agree the blank is filled in with *four*. Personally, I believe it was simply *for*.

I've been waiting four years for this. -- OMG 4 yrs again!

as opposed to

I've been waiting for years for this. -- just another *girl on top* smart alleck remark.

I think Michael hacked them apart and Jin is still wearing one half of them like a bracelet.

Whoops, Alden beat me to it. *:laugh: *But we both think the same thing happened, so that's probably it.

OK, phew, you blink and you miss something. Thanks for all the clarifications.

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

so what would happen if his investment was already a moneymaker? Would he then lose $$? As my toddler would say "I dunno!"


I'm not sure it matters if the box company makes money in the end. Even if Hurley loses money, Locke needed to be on that island to feed the Lostaways. Hurley benefited from Locke's being there. He would have surely starved. I just won't even go into the urchin thing... :) Still, it stands to reason that if Randy has been embezzling it would shrink the bottom line. Once that leak is plugged the company's profit margin should go up too.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

will he actually lose the $ or is there another turn? It's all theoretical anyhow.

Bess, that's why I've been studying the timeline, but it didn't have the answer I needed. In Walkabout, when Locke is talking to Helen he says "end of the week." Taken in context I thought he was saying he was leaving for his walkabout at the end of the week. If that's true, that wouldn't leave much time for Hurley to get that windfall. I think, if his windfall comes after the crash, it really doesn't matter because we probably won't be shown that. The most likely way Hurley can profit, IMHO, is to recover the stolen money plus damages from Randy's estate.
Make sense?

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Okay, this is an interesting (or wierd *:lol2:) thought.

If we are going with Hurleys good luck requires someone else to have bad luck, then it would be logical that someone else's good luck would result in Hurleys bad luck.

What if the accountant only *thought* the box company was doing really well on its own? What if it was only doing well "on paper". Profit reports, which would be the information Hurleys accountant would have, are generated from within. (Do we know exactly what sort of report Locke was working on?)

If Locke were taking his revenge on Randy by messing with the reports, then Randy could then, in turn, be responsible for making the company *appear* to be much more profitable than it actually was.

What I mean is, that perhaps Locke's actions (whatever they were) could cause a reversal of luck for Hurley

OK, I'm slow but I'm gettin' it..... ;)

shootfire

So, having Randy steal $ would be a turn of bad luck for the company...now, if that happens...and Hurley is the majority share holder...will he actually lose the $ or is there another turn? It's all theoretical anyhow.

Technically Randy would be stealing money from the company, not directly from Hurley. *Assuming it is a publicly owned company, the news of someone stealing money from the company, depending on the amount, and the affect it would have on the company's profits could cause the price of the stock to go down at which time the value of Hurley's investment would decrease by the number of shares he owns times the amount of money the stock price drops. *Technically Hurley would not *"lose" this money unless he sold the stock at the lower price. *If the stock price has gone up since Hurley bought it, a good accountant/investment person would have placed sell orders on the stock, which would sell the stock when the price dropped to a certain price.


If Locke were taking his revenge on Randy by messing with the reports, then Randy could then, in turn, be responsible for making the company *appear* to be much more profitable than it actually was.


Now this could be bad. *The stock would take a beating when the news was made public. *Hopefully those sell stops are in place

Now this could be bad. The stock would take a beating when the news was made public. Hopefully those sell stops are in place

Exactly. Good luck for Locke, because he doctored the books in some way that traced back to Randy and made him get in trouble, fired or even arrested. And that would translate to bad luck for Hurley when the stock price crashed.

It doesn't matter if the company itself profits so long as the result of what happens to it is that Hurley profits, I think?* What happened to the company might have happened after Hurley's chat with his stockbroker.* If some other company did a buyout of the company for example, Hurley's controlling interest might become more valuable while the empoyees of the company were either laid off or fired by the new management.*

(Somebody with more knowledge of business workings than me might be able to make that make sense.* *:laugh:* I'm talking about a scene like where Company A buys up stock in Company B, and as a result they take over Compaby B, fire upper management, and pay some kind of severence pay to the workers they get rid of.)* *So even more money for Hurley, Randy loses his job, Locke can tell him off, and he probably also gets enough money to buy two tickets.

Wow...there's so much more to Walkabout then meets the eye!

I know!* And there are so many scenes in Walkabout and other episodes that seem to mean something else again once you get a new piece of information.*

In one of the episodes, Sawyer says something to Kate. She is straddled on top of him and he says,
"I've been waiting _____ years for this." Most people seem to agree the blank is filled in with *four*. Personally, I believe it was simply *for*.


What Sawyer says is: "I made this birthday wish four years ago"


....been thinking more about Randy's character - he's the adult version of the school yard bully....and Locke is the kid he's "beating up" ... there are parallels to Jack getting beaten up in the school yard, and then as an adult getting bullied by his father.

Oh so, Randy is Meathead - thus connecting Locke, Jack and (since Randy hopped off the roof) Hurley. Tee hee.
This is GREAT!!

Was it Randy who jumped off the building? Same actor?

I think kgmaus was just speculating on how it could all tie together, so far as I know we don't know that actor's name.

....been thinking more about Randy's character - he's the adult version of the school yard bully...[and Jack's bully].

Nice analogy, Bess.* For a long time now I've assumed that Randy was made to be such a jerk because that way we wouldn't give much credence to anything he said, but some kind of a bully connection works too.

There's a little throwaway line in that Helen dialogue that I've never spent much time on either, but if Locke was living near L.A. it might matter.... "I have a therapist."* (May not be verbatim, I'm not quoting.)* Physical therapist, or psychiatric therapist?* Maybe Locke connects up with the mental hospital somehow.

Thanks Bess!* I wrote it off as physical therapist the first dozen times I heard it, but in the context of the conversation and later on the Numbers episode, it could go both ways.

And the way that characters criss-cross in this show, and since he's in Tustin -- he could have crossed paths with Lenny.

Yeah, I was thinking she meant a shrink when she mentioned a therapist. Which would be great if Locke did have some connection with the same hospital. So Lenny was in Tustin?

Actually, they are all kind of messed up in the head. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that they were ALL in therapy.

Maybe Kate was even institutionalized for killing "the man she loved" and escaped. Then went to New Mexico to retrieve the only memento of him she could think of that was someplace the authorities were unaware of. (I offer this only because I don't see her hanging around in one place long enough for therapy)

Sawyer probably needed to see someone after witnessing his parents deaths.

Jack may have, at the very least, been involved with Alanon.

Boone and Shannon - lots of rich yuppie brats go to therapy.

Locke may have needed psych counselling to deal with his "condition".

Yeah, I was thinking she meant a shrink when she mentioned a therapist. Which would be great if Locke did have some connection with the same hospital. So Lenny was in Tustin?


Locke was in Tustin, but it's not all that far from L.A.* (Hurley was in L.A. wasn't he?* Maybe I've got that wrong.)

I agree Sheba, they were all good candidates for a therapist!*

Bess,

Could you post the link for the flags on Locke's bedside table to this thread? * I know you had it in another one, but I can't remember which thread it was. *I'm thinking there must be something important about those flags. *

I know this is a lot of wild speculation but.....if Locke was involved in some super-secret branch (ssb for short) of the military, I could see how his military service might not show up in a personnel file. *Now, if he were in some ssb, this might account for some mental issues...some kind of ptsd thing. *The ssb wouldn't mind releasing him from duty and to see a civilian mental health professional, so long as there was no proof that he had any military involvement. *Yet, he could have special knowledge of what those numbers are about, and indeed, he may have been to the island before the crash. *If he did hear Lenny repeating them, he may know more about them than Lenny does. *

I'm trying to remember the conversation between Locke and Sayid about the compass. *He said he didn't need his compass anymore. *Does anyone know the name of the episode for that conversation? *I want to review the transcript. *I'm thinking it may be important to establish if he had tried his compass since the crash. *OR, if he was vague about when he had actually tried to use one.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

The Compass conversation was in 'Hearts and Minds'.

I guess Locke could have been a mercenary too, not that I know too much about mercenaries outside of, they're hired to fight in wars.

Thanks Bess and Elf!*

You're right Kato, he could have been a mercenary.* The Gadsden flag, though, that makes me think Marines or maybe Delta Force?*

After reading that transcript again, he was ve-e-ry* mysterious about the compass.*

Shootfire

There's also the possibility that Locke was never in any branch of military service. He may have learned all of his survival training in Boy Scouts. In keeping with his Walter Mitty style, he stated to Sayid that he was a Webelo Scout and that he wasn't very popular as a child. (I'm not saying anything about Webelos here. I think Webelos are great!) ;) But as an unpopular child, he may have spent all his time and energy on scouting. He probably had every activity pin, merit badge, or award you could possibly receive (and there are a lot of them.) IIRC, he has also stated that he has been preparing for this ALL HIS LIFE. Perhaps his training began in scouts. Even the metaphors that he uses for teaching have a very scoutlike flavor. He, like the philosopher of the same name, draws lessons from nature about life in general, very scoutlike. Having a deep reverence (very scoutlike) for our military, he was naturally drawn to organizations that resemble the military (and scouting.) Thus, he plays wargames, reads about history and adventure, and dreams. Perhaps before his "condition" he even joined paramilitary group, or re-enactors, where he could have attained his rank.

When he "told Randy off" or whatever else he did, he was breaking free from his dreaming, Walter Mitty life. For the first time he felt like a man who could do anything. That was LIFE changing, meaning he had never done anything like that before. It wasn't "four years changing."

Sorry to go on and on, but rereading Hearts and Minds changed something for me. Anyway, that's one theory.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

I think it's equally possible that he had a covert military role, or was a paramilitary, mercenary, boy scout, or a military wannabe... I don't think anything so far rules any of these things in or out.* I personally lean towards "loon who wished he was in the military" just because he was so delusional (in the flashback) and because of that therapist remark.* But I'm not set in stone there.*

I will admit that I've wondered if he was quite so good at the wilderness stuff before he met up with the "eye of the island."* Before that point he did throw a knife pretty accurately (or inaccurately as Jack suggested - ha) and he rattled off some information about hunting boars, but I think Sawyer was right: his plan sounded downright nuts to me.* And right off the bat he got knocked down by a boar.* I know this show is making me overly suspicious of everything, though.

I can't wait to see what prompted him to lay into Randy.*

I personally lean towards "loon who wished he was in the military" just because he was so delusional (in the flashback) and because of that therapist remark.

It would probably be a lot clearer if we knew whether or not he thought he was "getting saner." :lol2:

You're right there's not quite enough to decide. I really like the Walter Mitty thing though. ;D

shootfire

I like the Walter Mitty thing too.* I have had many Randy-like bosses, so I can relate.* *:laugh:

It doesn't matter if the company itself profits so long as the result of what happens to it is that Hurley profits, I think?*


Holy Hanna... *just trying to ket caught up...

I have to agree with Kato here. *Whatever it is that happened with Locke and Randy and his TPS reports, I think, would have to profit Hurley.

Hurley told his accountant that bad things were happening to people around him... *like the light bulb changer dude. *

I think Locke and Randy are details connected to the bad luck from being connected with Hurley.

I would think if Locke was doing the report about trustee shares that Hugo Reyes name might have shown up.

They way things were going the financial advisor should have 'shorted' the stock in the box co.

When I first saw the orange I thought it might be a clue for 'agent orange' now I only hope it was a Naval (seedless) and that they saved the pits to plant

They way things were going the financial advisor should have 'shorted' the stock in the box co.


Coupons, that makes perfect sense. It even makes the timing of "peter pan" being Randy almost perfect.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Bess,

Thanks for the links.

And now, thinking about that....I used to lean toward the Locke must have some secret military training...now I'm leaning toward the backyard warrior type person.


I'm right there with you, Bess. You don't think we're becoming unbalanced do you? :lol2:

Anyone remember which episode has Locke and Boone telling each other what they do for a living. My memory just stinks. I remember the conversation, but I want to re-read the transcript.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

BOONE:* What do you doing the real world, Mr. Locke?

LOCKE:* It's John.

BOONE:* John.

LOCKE:* Why don't you guess?

BOONE:* Well, you're either a taxidermist or a hit man.

(Locke chuckles.)*

LOCKE:* I was a ... Regional Collections Supervisor for a box company.

BOONE:* A box company?

(Locke nods.)*

LOCKE:* They made boxes.

(Boone smiles to himself.)*

BOONE:* Yeah, right.

---

LOCKE:* So, Boone, what do you doing the real world?

BOONE:* I run a business.

LOCKE:* What kind of business?

BOONE:* It's a wedding thing.

LOCKE:* Huh?

BOONE:* (a little embarrassed)* My mother has this empire -- the Martha Stewart
of matrimony.* I run one of the subsidiaries.

LOCKE:* So, who's running it now?

BOONE:* I guess it doesn't matter, does it?

They made boxes.


That statement gets kind of sticky. It almost sounds like the company doesn't exist anymore. If TPS reports put the company out of business, it could have been chopped up and sold off in parts that were more profittable than the whole. The company goes belly up, but Hurley still profits. Hmmmm.....

Boone talks of his company in the present tense. Locke speaks of his in past tense. Of course, it may just mean that Locke is resigned that he is never going back, but.....Hmmmm.....

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Oh, good catch on the past tense!

Locke speaks of his in past tense.*




Excellent eye, Shoot!

So, you think he's using, "I was...", to say... "that's what I used to do before the crash", or is he using it in the sense that, "I was.... but not anymore 'cause I don't work there any more."


Dang... every time something clever is caught... it spawns more questions that it answers.

Kg,

It just seemed like a stange way to carry on a conversation.* Boone was speaking in present tense from the beginning, which makes me think that Locke's end of the conversation was more important for what he wasn't saying than for what he was.* Make sense?

What do you doing the real world, Mr. Locke?


Then, when Locke inquires of Boone, he goes back to present tense.*

LOCKE:* So, Boone, what do you doing the real world?



See where I'm headed?* I really think the company is gone.

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

*Addendum: Even if Locke is no longer part of the real world, the box company/they is/are still making boxes, unless it is gone.

That would all fit, I think....

1.* Hurley buys the box stock.
2.* The company is bought out and then sold off in pieces, but stockholders profit.* (Bad luck for box company management, good luck for Hurley.)
3.* The old management is fired (Randy.
4.* Randy is no longer Locke's boss, Locke can say anything he likes to him.
5.* Locke himself may have made money out of selling his own stock in the company, or may have been given severence pay or early retirement.* (Given that he was handicapped, it might have been harder to just fire him outright.)
6.* Locke uses the money to go to Australia, and doesn't plan on going back, and can't go back since thecompany doesn't exist anymore.

Kato,

Great! It helps to have it all organized like that. Now, back to the question of Locke's arrival time in Oz.

An "authentic aboriginal walkabout" isn't something I would consider a short-term event. Do we have any idea how much vacation time Locke had coming to him? I don't think we do. So....if he had been hanging around in Sydney, he might have become a regular at a bar.

Now, consider this.....

Sawyer

Now, if I'm not mistaken, I'm fairly certain I said I'd kill you if I ever saw you again.

Hibbs

That's why I'm here, to make things right. Besides, we both know you ain't the killing type. [He pulls an envelope out his pocket and throws it on a table.] Here. I figure that makes us even for the Tampa job.

Sawyer

What could possibly make us even for the Tampa job?

Hibbs

How about the known whereabouts of the man that ruined your life? I'm going to make myself a drink. You want one? You remember old man Parks, right? Ran camper(?) for us on that gig in Atlanta.

Sawyer

Yeah, what about him?

Hibbs

He's been working the wire at an off track parlor down in Sydney. Last week one of his regulars gets a little too sauced, starts running his mouth off about his glory days as a grifter. That guy, Frank Duckett. Real hard luck case - gambling addict, alcoholic, runs a shrimp truck. Back in the day this guy Duckett was quite the hustler. He ran the romance angle, hooked the wife and took the husband for all the money. He was pretty good at it, too, from what I hear. Till, sadly, one of his marks, in despair, took a gun, shot up his wife and blew his own head off. All in front of their little boy. I paid Tony to pull his jacket. Turns out Frank Duckett used to be named Frank Sawyer. A name I believe you appropriated for yourself.

Sawyer [looking at a photo]

This is him?


What was it that Sawyer said in the police station? "I was just trying to give him his bottle back?"

If Sawyer went to see old man Parks, after killing the wrong man, he might have been trying to find out what really happened.

If we can place Sawyer in LA by way of the lotto girl, the LAPD may come into play because of Hibbs getting the "jacket."

I don't think we have quite enough yet, but I think it's coming together.

I'm new, and wondering what symbolism etc. has been place on the Box Company?* I read a comment about a square having "4" sides??

Welcome to the board, waltisfuture!* I'm not sure about box symbolism so I'll leave that to the math geniuses to explain.

Hibbs getting the* "jacket."

That would have to be a reference to the police, wouldn't it?* What else would it be?* The Sawyer chain of events is definitely one police-link possibility.

Then there is the drug dealer that the L.A.P.D. mistook Hurley for, and Charlie's drug habit.* Do we know where Charlie was living before he went to Australia?

I sure would love to know what other stock or companies Hurley owned.* A wedding business?* Airline stock?* An investment in some patented surgical tool?* A chain of fish-n-fries in Australia?* Maybe everyone is there because of Hurley.* *:laugh:

If all of this works, look at the connections we've made already.

BEST
Hurley
Locke
Sawyer
Jack (by way of Christian)

Shakier
Claire (if Locke saw the same psychic in Oz that Claire did, causing the psychic to get Claire on the plane because he knew about the crash.)

Charlie (Wasn't Charlie headed for L.A. because he had a record deal? If he had been in LA trying to put the record deal together prior to his trip, I say we have another possible connection with a drug dealer.

Maybe everyone is there because of Hurley.

Maybe..... ;)

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Here's another possible connection....

Sun's father is quite the big shot business man... Hurley could have ties to his business.

Maybe Locke's Box Co. supplies boxes to Sun's pop... ?


I like the idea that, similar to Sawyer's connection to Jack... Hurley and Locke's connection would be a mutually known charater, like Randy.

Sun and Hurley - Sun's father.

Here's a good one... Locke's Box Co. supplies boxes to Boone's mother's Bridal Business. I like that... not only does Locke work in a box co. but they make boxes for dresses.



Didn't Ethan say he was from Canada... so's the shoe company that Hurley...owned.

Hibbs

That's why I'm here, to make things right. Besides, we both know you ain't the killing type. [He pulls an envelope out his pocket and throws it on a table.] Here. I figure that makes us even for the Tampa job.

Sawyer

What could possibly make us even for the Tampa job?

Isn't Tampa famous for its oranges ? Orange futures ?
Don't misunderstand me, i'm not assuming that Sawyer has something to do with the tropical storms thing, i'm silly, but not that silly ! :D
But in one hand there's Sawyer doing a job in Tampa, and in another hand there's Hurley, owner of Orange Futures in Florida.
What do you think ?

What a minute....say this part of Hibb's story is true....he really could be talking about Locke or Christian Shepard. Esp. since we don't know how long Locke was in Oz.

That's what I'm thinking exactly, Bess.

shootfire

Good catch Bess....

I bet you're right....one of the Lostaways is going to turn out to be Frank's regular.


Could be Hurley... again. He sure has enough money to wager... if he's feeling quilty about the money... maybe he'd just play the long shots to get rid of it. But... then again... why wouldn't he pay up?

I lean (oops off balance again!) toward Christian...b/c Locke doesn't seem like the drinking type....nor the gambling.

......but we're thinking of Locke now. How would the old Locke, who had had his destiny stolen by the walkabout company, react. He was sooo upset. I could see him hanging around bars crying in his beer.....I don't know.

Christian influenced Sawyer sitting in a bar. Maybe Christian influenced Locke in a similar fashion. I don't know......

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

I like that... not only does Locke work in a box co. but they make boxes for dresses.


KG,

I don't remember this. Which episode transcript should I reread? ;D

Thanks,

shootfire
N.E.R.D. #12

I think that was a speculation, not something from the show.*

but we're thinking of Locke now.* How would the old Locke, who had had his destiny stolen by the walkabout company, react

Ah, good question.* If he got a refund on his Walkabout tour, he would have had some money, and his return fare was already paid up, so... does he just skulk back to Sydney and get on the return flight, or does he attempt to fulfill his destiny?* Or does someone else step in and offer him a chance to fulfill his destiny?

This is just wild speculation on my part, but I think he ends up in Kalgoorlie.*

This is just wild speculation on my part, but I think he ends up in Kalgoorlie.




OH, do tell.

Whether we've figured out the story or not....I think this one is pretty interesting. ;D

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

But in one hand there's Sawyer doing a job in Tampa, and in another hand there's Hurley, owner of Orange Futures in Florida.


Crash,
I thought about that myself. Maybe whatever went bad for Sawyer in Florida had something to do with the storms?


This is just wild speculation on my part, but I think he ends up in Kalgoorlie.


I did notice there were companies in Kalgoorlie that offered walkabouts.

Claire connection - my gut says she used to work for Frank Duckett...the poor shrimp guy who Sawyer whacked.


Bess, I think you may be right about this one too.

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

I like the Claire-Duckett idea too.* I meant to say that earlier.

Locke might have even gone off on his own private Walkabout -- in fact, that sounds more Lockish than just slinking back to L.A.* When I was looking for maps of Kalgoorlie I noticed the warnings on some of them about driving around in the Outback unless you knew what you were doing -- can't you just picture Locke saying "don't tell me what I can't do, Map!" and forging ahead with his 500 knives?* *:laugh:

(If this Hiatus lasted much longer, we could just finish the whole series off by ourselves here.)* *:roflmao:

I read somewhere, that in a Claire flashback, there is a box above her, with a white/clear rock on it??

can't you just picture Locke saying "don't tell me what I can't do, Map!" and forging ahead with his 500 knives? *



That is SO true!

(If this Hiatus lasted much longer, we could just finish the whole series off by ourselves here.) *

I think you may be right!

Shootfire

I read somewhere, that in a Claire flashback, there is a box above her, with a white/clear rock on it??

Walt,

Do you have a link?

shootfire

I have been reading every Lost site I can find, for weeks now, but I got most of my info from here. If not here, there is another good board, I'll see if I can find it. I don't know how to do fancy computer stuff, so I don't record where I get the info from.

OK,
I think I may have found another connection between characters. I haven't figured out how to connect it to Hurley yet though.

Walt's mother was an attorney, specializing in international law, right? Well, a week before she died she was complaining about someone stalling a case she was working. Someone named Barkley, who was arguing that the case was a matter of immigration, wouldn't let a case go forward. I'm thinking this connects Sayid, maybe through Nadia, to Michael.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

International makes me think of Suns fathers, maybe having troubles receiving his box order?
Immigration means a person though doesn't it?

International makes me think of Suns fathers

I hadn't actually considered that it might have something to do with Jin and Sun. I suppose that's possible too.

Shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

He's been working the wire at an off track parlor down in Sydney. Last week one of his regulars gets a little too sauced, starts running his mouth off about his glory days as a grifter. That guy, Frank Duckett. Real hard luck case - gambling addict, alcoholic, runs a shrimp truck. Back in the day this guy Duckett was quite the hustler. He ran the romance angle, hooked the wife and took the husband for all the money. He was pretty good at it, too, from what I hear. Till, sadly, one of his marks, in despair, took a gun, shot up his wife and blew his own head off. All in front of their little boy. I paid Tony to pull his jacket. Turns out Frank Duckett used to be named Frank Sawyer. A name I believe you appropriated for

Another self inflicted head injury may or may not be relative

On the list of the "box" connection, I wonder if the clue, a tv within a tv, could come into play here?

Hey, good morning Bess!*

Sun and Jin weren't emigrating to Australia, so Sayid seems more likely to me too.* If he was looking for Nadia and got some kind of hint that she might be in Australia, he might have had something to do with immigration laws/lawyers/cases.* (Political asylum, even?)

Sun and Jin are tricky, we don't know how long they were in Oz and they presumably haven't been going around speaking English, so it's hard to see how they could have interacted with anyone.*

And ditto Walt -- being a child who wouldn't be roaming around Sydney on his own.* Or maybe he would, he seems pretty headstrong,* *:laugh:

Sun and Jin weren't emigrating to Australia

Actually, Sun 's original agenda was to emigrate to U.S. :

Sun : When I'm gone will you care for my dog?

ID (hands Sun an American passport) : During your trip, at the airport, at 11:15. . . You make an excuse and walk out of the airport. Bring nothing! A car will be waiting. For the first week your family will assume you've been kidnapped. You will stay out of sight until they come to think you are dead. After that you will be free to move wherever you want. Now, tell me when.

Maybe Susan was helping Sun to go to U.S. via Australia, in order to delete tracks or mislead whoever would have looked after Sun ?

Maybe Susan was helping Sun to go to U.S. through Australia, in order to delete tracks or mislead whoever would have looked after Sun ?



That's kind of what I was thinking, only that maybe Jin had decided to take his father's advice and let the watch delivery be the last think he did for Mr. Paik.

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12

Ahh...now that is a possibility! Most of the Sun/Jin/Susan's law firm reasons I've heard have to do with business....which I just didn't see happening...but the Sun to US via Oz...now that's interesting!

And Susan being dead, no one would have found out about that.

shootfire - good point, it also works with both of them trying to escape from Sun's father.

But would an attorney have a sideline of helping people get into countries illegally?* Not that I don't think Susan was a pretty conscienceless character.

(As an aside -- shootfire, did you know that you can add "shootfire" and "Nerd #12" to either your signature -- where you wouldn't have to type it out each time -- or, below or above your avatar (ditto)?* If you go to "profile" you'll see the link for personal profile information, and that page will have three different places to add information -- your custom title, the text you want below your picture, and your signature.)

But would an attorney have a sideline of helping people get into countries illegally?

Maybe those watches come into play there.
We know Jin was supposed to deliver watches in Sydney and L.A.
Let's say this watch delivery thing means trouble for the one who receives it.
What if Susan was related to the one who Jin paid a visit in Sydney ?
Maybe Jin made a deal with her, he doesn't "deliver the watch" and Susan helps them to escape.

Of course there's the language issue, but it's a detail, and it can be solved in many ways.

Well, she was kind of a shady/sneaky character overall, so on reflection I have no problem with her doing something illegal.* *:laugh:

I don't think I'm smart enough to be a Nerd.* I don't even know what I'm doing in Numbers, given my math skills.* :/* (Just cheering on the others, I guess!)* I could be a nerd wannabe maybe.* *:laugh:

(As an aside -- shootfire, did you know that you can add "shootfire" and "Nerd #12" to either your signature -- where you wouldn't have to type it out each time -- or, below or above your avatar (ditto)? If you go to "profile" you'll see the link for personal profile information, and that page will have three different places to add information -- your custom title, the text you want below your picture, and your signature.)

Thanks, Kato. I remembered seeing that I could do it somewhere, but I was just too lazy (or obsessed) to take the time to figure it out.

Susan still could assist Sun (or Jin) and do it legally.

Yes, but that might take more time than they had. The window of opportunity looked like it was kind of small.

All the same, I'm leaning (my unbalanced self) towards Sayid. I wonder if Sayid didn't escape Iraq some time ago and was making his home in Australia. He could have sought out an attorney to help him get Nadia out of a prison in Iraq. When his attorney advised him that there was a hitch with Barkley and subsequently died, he might have decided to head to the U.S. and try to get something done through the U.S. government. Hmmmm.....

If we can connect boxes to Boones moms wedding business, how about watches.* Wouldn't they make a nice gift for your groomsmen? The lady Sun was speaking to in her apartment about escaping, can we tie Susan to her somehow?

Arrrgh! Now that I said I'm leaning toward Sayid, I've changed my mind. If Susan was worried because someone was stalling, then time must be an important factor. If it all hinges on Australian immigration, then that someone MUST be at least passing through Oz. Now, I'm leaning towards Sun again......I think I'm beginning to suffer from motion sickness......

If we can connect boxes to Boones moms wedding business, how about watches. Wouldn't they make a nice gift for your groomsmen? The lady Sun was speaking to in her apartment about escaping, can we tie Susan to her somehow?

Wouldn't it be lovely if we could? ;)

now...Shoot help me ! Help me!!

Well, we seem to keep swinging to opposite sides of pendulum. Maybe we can balance each other one way or another! :lol2:

Susan Sun and Sayid - hmmm....my original thought was Sayid .. .someone mentioned a long time ago that in WR there was a newpaper headline with something about terrorist cell in Sydney...what if Sayid was arrested in connection with the cell...but is innocent....hires Susan to help him deal with it all..international law would deal with that sort of thing.....leaning the other way

Shoot! Now you know where I got my handle. Bess, that makes a lot of sense too.

Bess, here's something to twist your brain a little more : :D

Pilot Part 2
Sawyer : This guy was sitting in the back row of business class the whole flight, never got up. Hands folded underneath a blanket. And for some reason, just pointing this out, the guy I saw next to him didn't make it.

Sayid : Thank you so much for observing my behavior.

Sawyer : You don't think I saw them pull you out of line before we boarded ?

[Sayid's trying to get to Sawyer again, to hit him.]

Sawyer : Bring it !

Kate : Stop !

[Sayid backs off.]

Sorry. ;D

*discreetly step away and run to hide from Bess' fury* :whistling2:

Newspaper headline terrorist ring?

I don't remember that one! Color me blind.

LOL, about half the time when I am watching Lost, I am paying such close attention to one thing going on on one part of the screen that I end up completely missing what I should have been paying attention to someplace else. :o

You've sort of lost me Crash!

Oh, that's a good one ! :lol2:

Don't worry, I don't believe Sayid is a terrorist.
IMO, the security only checked him because of paranoïa.
If we were supposed to question Sayid's morality, this scene would have been shown, not merely mentioned.

Are you implying Sayid may be connected to the newspaper headline terrorist ring? No wrath from me on that point. Susan still could have been handling Sayid's case....which did not do so well after her death....in fact, perhaps he was deported. You've sort of lost me Crash!


Well, if you are about to be deported, and you haven't yet found you long lost honey, who happens to be hanging out with terrorists.....hmmmm....I guess time becomes a critical factor again.

Bess,

I've re-watched WR too, this headline is on a USA Today left in Christian's room in Sydney.
But it's on the corner of the screen and partially masked.
It says "Arrest** disrupt** terrorist ***rring".

Is it in the top right corner??? Cuz that keeps coming up.

Look there on the numbers list, there is an equation.

Connect 4 looks like it's an arrow in the corner, if you turn it to match Danielle's notes, it could be top right corner.

There is another one but it's not coming to mind right now!

Bess,

I don't have the WR episode, but I do remember seeing a newspaper with that kind of headline. *I can't confirm the episode though. *I remembered thinking that it might be important to establish why the plane crashed when I first saw it. *

Question, while folks are rewatching episodes., did anyone notice the necklace that Kate was wearing during the bank robbery (WTCMB)? *It looked to me like a little framed picture. *I just can't get a clear enough picture, or maybe my eyes are bad. *I was wondering if it was a picture of a child. *

Is it in the top right corner??? Cuz that keeps coming up.

No, it's in the bottom left one. The picture was focused on Christian's pills, so the headline is blurred.
I begin to think there's no connection at all with his headline.

shootfire - i'm on it.

shootfire - i'm on it.

Awwww, thanks Crash. It's been driving me crazy. It looks like it was intentionally obscured for most of the scene, which just made me curiouser and curiouser.....

Bess,
Question, while folks are rewatching episodes., did anyone notice the necklace that Kate was wearing during the bank robbery (WTCMB)? *It looked to me like a little framed picture. *I just can't get a clear enough picture, or maybe my eyes are bad. *I was wondering if it was a picture of a child. *



I noticed they kept showing her necklace too, is there going to be a child connection now??

I noticed they kept showing her necklace too, is there going to be a child connection now??

Walt,

It remains to be seen whether there is a child involved or not. I asked only based on a vague sense I had about the necklace. You don't often seen people wearing picture necklaces unless the picture is of a child. Combine that with a little toy airplane and you can go a lot of different directions. Who knows? We'll just have to wait for Crash.

No, no such thing as a child, it's blue on top and brown light or golden below, i'd say a landscape if it's actually a picture, but more likely a random drawing from the stone.
It's made of turquoise and silver and it's assorted with her earings.
Dead end. :-\

Shootfire! :lol2:

Well, thanks for going to the trouble.

My pleasure.
I've got all of the ep. under my hand, so i'm glad to help. :D
If there's anything else you want me to check out, just ask, ok ? ;)

Crashover

Count how many beads are on Shannon's dangly earrings, I think it is 15.
To be used to get to 815, to eliminate that episode in the search for the episode without an 815 reference.

Rose is wearing a necklace too, what does it look like?

Kate's necklace during the robbery looked dainty, and she was wearing a bracelet and earrings, don't know about ring??

It's a jewelry conspiracy, Jin would kill for a watch!!!

Holy snikies.... this thread went nuts... I had 3 pages to catch up on...

I really liked reading all the ideas on who's connected to whom. :laugh: Those are getting good.


Was it determined that the Terrorist headline wasn't really there? 'Cause I need that to get the known terrorist Nadia in Australia. To attempt to blow up flight 815. Who's unaware that her love Sayid is on the plane.

Or something.

You all are gonna kill me... couldn't it be possible that Locke wanted to immigrate into Oz? IF he couldn't go back to the Box Co. maybe he'd been in Oz long enough to let his visa expire. He figured, I wanna stay.

It's just Locke's kind of luck that his attorney (Susan) would kick the bucket (Thanks Hurley.)

He has to leave Oz on Flt 815.

If y'all have already debunked this, that's good. I can get it off my mind.

Was it determined that the Terrorist headline wasn't really there? 'Cause I need that to get the known terrorist Nadia in Australia. To attempt to blow up flight 815. Who's unaware that her love Sayid is on the plane.



Kg,
What an interesting idea! I keep thinking I saw another newspaper that specifically said Sydney. Still, I would think someone would have spotted it by now. I don't have a any of the earlier shows to go back and watch.

When the show first aired, of course, everyone knew the plane was gonna crash. I was already looking for little things that might explain why. Seems to me I saw a newspaper, maybe one of the passengers was reading it? I cannot wait for the DVDs to come out....

I've never read this idea before, I love it!!!
It would be dreadful if Sayid was a terrorist, but I can buy Nadia doing it.
What do we know about Sayid's past with Nadia?
Did they know each other in childhood?
There is the picture, with the script, and the "prisoner" scene, was there anything else?

You all are gonna kill me... * couldn't it be possible that Locke wanted to immigrate into Oz? *IF he couldn't go back to the Box Co. maybe he'd been in Oz long enough to let his visa expire. *He figured, I wanna stay

I don't know kg. *It seems to me that, unless Locke got into some kind of trouble during his stay, he wouldn't have any trouble getting his visa extended, let alone need an attorney. * Nor can I figure how anyone would track him down to tell him he had to leave, if indeed he was on a walkabout. *You follow?

Shoot..
I'm hip! *I"m missing a few earlier ones myself... *Kinda anxious to see if there will be any extras on the DVD.
And that makes pretty good sense about Locke, too. Nix the Locke idea.

I think they spent some of their childhood together. *They played in a playground together.

Sayid was assigned to interrigate her in connection to a bombing. *He let her go.


I think that's it.

Hmmmm... *he let her go... * might turn out that she IS the terrorist they suspected her of being... *So Sayid goes globe trotting around the world chasing her. *
*

Sayid was assigned to interrigate her in connection to a bombing. *He let her go. *


I missed that. I don't remember knowing why she was in prison, just that they knew each other, and she had been tortured before. (was there a hole in her hand?) Crucifixion??

OK, lets say she did bomb the plane and didn't know Sayid was on it, but why??
Was there something special on the plane? Suns dads watches?
Why do terrorists bomb planes?

Terrorists usually bomb planes to impose terror.

LOL

and....?

Sorry, that's just what came to my head as I was reading.

*goes back to lurking*

Waltisfuture, Sayid questioned her about a bombing in Iraq -- it had nothing to do with the plane. *

Thanks, I'm up to speed now. I forgot about the "bombing" interrogation.

What was with her hand, or injury? I haven't seen that episode in so long, I can't remember.

* Suns dads watches?


Absolutely... that's even better... Nadia's hired by Mr. Paik to do away with flt 815. Is there any way he would know they would be on that flight?

Nadia's a bombmaker for hire.

Is Mr. Paik, the guy Jin was supposed to kill?

Oh...sorry... that's Sun's pop.

He would have the money and power to pull it off i guess.

We'll how about the guy who Jin went to give the message to.

The one who ran the factory that was closed and Suns dad wanted it open.

He might want to blow the "watches" up??

Maybe the "watches" are synonymous to a kiss on the cheek from Don Corleon?

Sure...

Could it be that, the Evil Mr Sunsfather was delivering " watches " (a.k.a.) " kisses " to some of* Mr. Puppygiverawayer's family or friends in America, and he wants to stop it~~ or ~~he is an even* bigger crook than Suns father, and he's taking over America.

okay here is a wild thought, what if the numbers that Locke needed to give were some code for the box company him telling Randy off and not supplying the "NUMBERS" caused the box plant to burn down.
When this show comes out on DVD I know I will be spending my weekends going over plus the unaired extras!!!
Off topic who dies? Jin most obvious? Hurley would be a waste of his character? Walt....Disney Show killing the kid for a change? Boone......safe bet....wonder what Vegas is saying?

Walt....Disney Show killing the kid for a change?



That is fricken brilliant. We have a new baby coming, he's old news.

Holy snikies....* this thread went nuts...* I had 3 pages to catch up on...

I really liked reading all the ideas on who's connected to whom.* *:laugh:* Those are getting good.


Was it determined that the Terrorist headline wasn't really there?* *'Cause I need that to get the known terrorist Nadia in Australia.* To attempt to blow up flight 815.* Who's unaware that her love Sayid is on the plane.


interesting premise to get Nadia to Australia

Watches - it's been mentioned that giving clocks in China is bad luck b/c the word "clock" and the word "Death" sound similar....and the clock implies time running out...it does not apply to watches as near as I can find...NOW, I couldn't find anything taboo about giving clocks and/or watches in Korea...BUT, who's to say that the writers wouldn't take some poetic license with this....I really like the idea that poor Jin is sent out to deliver a black spot.....perhaps that's why he got so upset with Michael taking the watch....Michael gets off the island and is marked in someway (but those would have to be some special watches!)....

I like that idea too. In fact, it doesn't necessarily have to be a cultural issue. It could just be a symbol within Mr. Paik's organization. I think Jin must have been extremely upset about the assignment, if that's what precipitated his visit to his father. Perhaps he was having an identity crisis? OR, he never expected to see his father again? I don't know that Jin would have been that upset if Michael left the island a marked man. He was jealous of Michael from the beginning, but then Jin's an awfully sympathetic character. He probably doesn't want to see anyone die. More likely it is exactly what Sun said, a matter of honor. If this is the last thing he plans to do for Paik, he doesn't want to fail.

watches could by a nudge time is running out on some deal

I don't know, I can't see a 20.000$ watch as a bad thing.
Maybe this watch is only a ticket for a new life, maybe Jin planned to sell it in L.A., that's what i'd do if i wanted to start over with a little extra.

You may not mind getting 4 of anything given to you, but in Korea giving things in groups of 4 is considered bad luck.

Whoa! Now that's interesting. Using such expensive watches may mean that Mr. Paik will spare no expense to make sure that the bad fortune is realized. That's really interesting Bess!

Sure, you may not see it as a bad thing...but then again, you may also like getting that clock as a retirement gift...but if you were in China you wouldn't.* It depends on your cultural references.* You may not mind getting 4 of anything given to you, but in Korea giving things in groups of 4 is considered bad luck.


I remember reading that clocks were a bad thing to give as apresent in China because they meant death.*Good idea to look at the cultural significance of watches in Korea, Bess.*

Okay...* so Jin is Korean, he would know that giving someone a watch would be bad juju.* Right?

So you're a simple fisherman's son who deperately wants out* of fishing...* you bust *** for years working your way out...* but you still have the simple values...* you fall in love with a girl and bust more *** to prove you're worthy...* then you find out her father is...* well, evil... he makes you do bad things to people... and you do these things and compromise your values for...love, honor?

I bet Jin knows what it means to deliver these watches...*

All of that had to been tearing him up inside.* And now he can't finish his last task for the man, and he's stuck with this woman he doesn't trust, and he can't tell her....* or can he?

So does anyone think the watches are tied to what Mr. Paik is doing with the environmental guy...* or is the environmental guy finished now that his character has done it's job?* (showing that Mr. Paik has enough power to threaten gov. officials to get what he wants)


OH... almost forgot...thanks Crash and Bess for helping me find that single thread that could get my Nadia in Oz. :laugh:
*

Well, it's also possible that the ones to receive the watches are Chinese.

So does anyone think the watches are tied to what Mr. Paik is doing with the environmental guy... or is the environmental guy finished now that his character has done it's job? (showing that Mr. Paik has enough power to threaten gov. officials to get what he wants)


Well, I wondered about that myself. I'm assuming the Ministry of Environmental Safety would be the equivilent of the EPA. If Paik is displeased with the minister, and he is displeased with associates in Sydney and LA, how might these characters connect?

It seems to me there must have been some kind of accident at Paik's factory. Could it have something to do with emissions? The plant was closed as a precautionary measure? Mr. Paik is trying to "influence" the Minister of Environmental Safety to re-open his factory, to proclaim it fixed.

Jin felt responsible for the accident. He apologized for the factory's closing. He said something about the machinery being old. Paik is not upset with his son-in-law. Mr. Paik thinks his associates caused the problem? I'm just rambling a bit to see if someone else has a better idea. ;)

OKay..hold the phone a sec...

When Jin took the puppy from the Environmental guy... *Hurley was on the set winning the Lotto. *If we go by Hurley's time reference... *that would be in late '03 early '04.

That gives Jin plenty of time to get in tighter with Mr. Paik. *Is that right?

Maybe the first delivery of watches was when he spoke to dad...

but for some reason Jin just kept on delivering watches...

...each time saying... *this will be the last time.

When Jin took the puppy from the Environmental guy...* Hurley was on the set winning the Lotto.* If we go by Hurley's time reference...* that would be in late '03 early '04.


That would certainly explain Mr. Paik's growing impatience that his plant has not reopened.

Edited to include possible Hurley connection:

Sneaker factory burns......industrial espionage?

Now that you mention it -- wouldn't being overinsured automatically trigger an arson investigation by the insurance company?* Insurance companies look askance at overinsured things going boom for no reason.

it's a bit odd that Hurley's account over insured it. It's like he knew. *[/quote


Yes arson, but if he knew it there would be a fire, wouldn't this indicate his involvement with the sneaker company was more than just an accountant who would invest his clients' money in it. *If he was the accountant for the sneaker company too, conflict of interest.....major red flag for an insurance company.

Now that you mention it -- wouldn't being overinsured automatically trigger an arson investigation by the insurance company? *Insurance companies look askance at overinsured things going boom for no reason.

Good point. *


On the other hand, you could have a competitor, maybe in Korea, who would have a vested interest in seeing a clamity befall the company in Canada. *Perhaps the competitor would pay someone to start the fire. *The same person might have been paid by Paik's associates to cause a crisis at his factory.

Ooops,
I don't know what I did to that post. I didn't mean to quote everything.. :lol2:

Aaahhh, ok, I'm clear now. I went back and reread the transcript. I was thinking Hurley was a shareholder. I hadn't realized he owned the company outright. Naturally, if Hurley owns the company, the accountant would be involved in insuring the company.

Gotcha!

OHhhh...

So the shoe factory was over-insured... maybe the reason was; it had been threatened by certain environmental concerns... similar to Mr. Paik's company.


HHmmm :-\

Maybe the accountant didn't know about it... but someone sure did.
I'd like to see "Nadia's" passport.

Maybe the accountant didn't know about it... but someone sure did.
I'd like to see "Nadia's" passport.




I have no problem with Nadia being "involved" with terrorists, but IMHO the terrorists would have to be working based on some cultural belief. From what we are told, Nadia's association was with anti-Saddam terrorists, a sympathetic cause. I'm not sure I can buy that she's with terrorists that have no specific agenda. Unless.......they take high paying jobs to support their cause.....hmmm.....

If Sayid were in the RG and sympathetic to Saddam's regime...wouldn't he have cause to turn into a bad guy?

I think it's important that we remember there are two parts to that premise. If he's BOTH RG AND sympathetic to Saddam's regime, then yes. I fail to see how we have been shown that he definitely IS sympathetic to Saddam's regime,though. When Nadia asked Sayid to come with her, IIRC he stated that he couldn't because his family would be killed. Based on what I know from a former diplomat, who actually lived under Saddam's regime, you either played or you payed. I think it's fairly obvious from Sayid's reaction to what he had done to Sawyer that he did not really, PRIVATELY, enjoy what he did. OR, if he did in the beginning, Nadia's situation changed him. It is fiction though......

and who knows the sorts of seedy characters she could have hooked up with!


That's true enough.

I'm willing to believe the best of him b/c that's all we've seen.
We have only been shown a little snippet of their lives. I suppose its possible he could be bad.
In fact, he may not have made that promise to himself about what he would and wouldn't do until the crash. :-\

Yep, it's probably not a big leap of logic to assume he was in Australia looking for Nadia, rather than attempting to sabotage a plane or something.*

Not really, because whenever he spoke of her, it was like he'd accepted her 'death' a long time ago...

Well, okay -- it's a subjective thing, and we just got something different out of it.* *:)

A link to the mysterious TPS report.

http://www.phil.frb.org/src/srcinsights/srcinsights/q3si5_03.html

shootfire

N.E.R.D. #12


:lol2:

I had absolutely NO IDEA that TPS reports were a real thing. I thought this comment was a shoutout to the movie "Office Space"!

I am such a dork! :lol2:

Janine

I never heard of them either, and I've worked in an office.* *:laugh: I didn't see Office Space, though.

I didn't see Office Space, though.

Blasphemer. Get thee to Blockbuster this instant.

I hear and obey.** :laugh:** I'll add it to my list.* *:)

I'm glad Shoot found that link!


Aww shucks, twern't nothin' but a little google search. ;)

I'm glad if it helped someone. Honestly, I had never heard of them either, and I have worked in accounting. I just haven't worked for a publicly traded company, maybe that's why.

Hmmmm, I haven't seen Office Space either. Now, my curious nature will force me to rent it. ;)

I'm surrounded by uninitiated heathens!! What's wrong with you people? Not having seen Office Space is like having never discovered the use of your own hands! How do you survive?!

:)

I'm surrounded by uninitiated heathens!! What's wrong with you people? Not having seen Office Space is like having never discovered the use of your own hands! How do you survive?!

:roflmao:

Okay, moving it to the top of my list.* *

they need staplers and some flair!

If this statement is suggestive of the movie's tone, it sounds like a must see. :lol2:

If you've ever worked in any type of corporate/office environment, you will be howling with sympathetic laughter the whole time.

they need staplers and some flair!

:jump:

OMG BESS!!!! That's brilliant...

:jump:




My stapler's a slimline....btw...

Okay folks, here's Javi's response to the question of the lotto girl and Sawyer's girl being one in the same.

i can neither confirm nor deny, but it's interesting, isn't it, how everyone's fate in this show seems to be intertwined...

...things that make you go "hmmmm...."

i was going to be even vaguer but... well, it's hard to say why not...

ja
vi





I don't think this is a hard and fast answer, but I do think it makes our theorizing about connections valid.

Yup...it sure does. Every once and a while they throw us a bone!

I have the 10 pieces of required flair.

Argh, I have got to tear myself away from this forum long enough to watch a movie! :lol2:

Now that you mention it -- wouldn't being overinsured automatically trigger an arson investigation by the insurance company?* Insurance companies look askance at overinsured things going boom for no reason.


Not to ruin everyone's movie :angel: buuuuut, having worked at an insurance company before....it's against the law to "profit" from your insurance. I.E., one can only claim actual damages incurred. Being overinsured only costs YOU money but does not result in more money in your pocket if something happens. ;D

Example, if you and your spouse both have health insurance and you file claims on both policies, the total accrued cannot exceed 100% of the bill. You can't say but I want the rest! :lol2:

Has anyone theorized about the clue box within a box, having something to do with Jack's dads coffin. Maybe there is something hidden in it. Jack didn't check it out did he?

Has anyone theorized about the clue box within a box, having something to do with Jack's dads coffin. *Maybe there is something hidden in it. *Jack didn't check it out did he?

Jorge (Hurley) was the one who gave the box within a box clue in response to a question about what was coming up for his character. *The box within a box was telling us to look for the tv in In Translation, I'm pretty sure. *That was when Hurley was spotted on the tv in the Minister of Environmental Safety's home. *I think that was all there was to that clue.

Jorge (Hurley) was the one who gave the box within a box clue in response to a question about what was coming up for his character. *The box within a box was telling us to look for the tv in In Translation, I'm pretty sure. *That was when Hurley was spotted on the tv in the Minister of Environmental Safety's home. *I think that was all there was to that clue.



Thanks, I thought that was a clue from the writers. I'll let it go now.
Where is the coffin?

Jack found it and I assume left it in the jungle

Didn't he pretty much destroy the coffin?

Bess, it seems like I remember something about dolls. I tried to find a screencap. This was the best I could find. It's very dark and hard to make out for me. Maybe you can see more.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=16562&fullsize=1

Jack destroys the coffin in anger during White Rabbit...but I don't know if its still there or how badly it was ruined.

I remember a close up of one doll, but I don't remember there being a lot of them.

When Jack found the casket. The camera kind of *looked around* the area. There was a scattered assortment of stuff, one of the things was a doll. If I recall correctly, it was like one of those dressed up, collectable porceline dolls. It did not appear to be damaged.

Bess

Now do you have the 10 pieces of required flair again? Is that what the doll is to you? You lost the flair. :lol2:

wonder if the 'sawyer' doll has pins in its head :laugh: :lol2:
Undoubtedly we will revisit them. Maybe better shots will be on the cd

we've hashed out everything else!

Hmmm, I'm not so sure we have hashed out everything else. Something's been bugging me too. When Boone is at the police station, he tells the detective he runs a wedding clothing company. He doesn't say specifically wedding dresses, although I'm sure they're involved. Still, I can't help thinking about Jack's father in that tuxedo wearing sneakers. Hmmmm.....

There is another thing too. In Homecoming, Lucy's father was out of town when she invited Charlie over for tea. She told Charlie he was off buying a paper company in Slough. Hmmm.... Couldn't a paper company be a supplier for a box company? Hmmmm....

Hmmm, I'm not so sure we have hashed out everything else.* Something's been bugging me too.* When Boone is at the police station, he tells the detective he runs a wedding clothing company.* He doesn't say specifically wedding dresses, although I'm sure they're involved.* Still, I can't help thinking about Jack's father in that tuxedo wearing sneakers.* Hmmmm.....

There is another thing too.* In Homecoming, Lucy's father was out of town when she invited Charlie over for tea.* She told Charlie he was off buying a paper company in Slough.* Hmmm....* Couldn't a paper company be a supplier for a box company?* Hmmmm....


Outstanding points!

I had completely failed to consider the paper company. I'm not sure if a paper company would supply a box company (I would think thw two would have the same suppliers) but, BOTH a paper company and a box company (and a shoe factory for that matter) could very well supply a wedding company!

Creepy dolls come in boxes as well. Wow...everyone needs boxes!



Hmmm, you know, car companies don't need boxes per se. They do however need parts that come in boxes. Hmmm.... Maybe the numbers aren't cursed. Maybe the boxes are. ;)

The Heroin religious statues come in boxes

The Hatch is one big BOX ;D

Here's a good one...

It's posible that Locke's mom and Hurley spent time in the looney bin together.

At the least bit.... she could have been there with Lenny.


Santa Rosa Mental Hospital in LA


Anyone remember the name of the Dr. Hurley ran into in Numbers? Cause you can read the Dr.s names on Mommy Locke's admission forms.

Dr. Curtis was his name, I believe. Does that help?

Aaaww... sadly no that doesn't help. JUst checked the credits on Numbers... you're right Shoot!... good goin, my friend! :laugh:

The Docs on Mommy Dearest's admittance form are...

D Madison
C Silva
R Munoz


Oh wow... this has probably been mentioned... but that fine Lotto girl... that was Michael's real life Wife!

Still, good connect there kgmaus!

(Connect 4,* Mousetrap, Backgammon, war games... any other game references in this show?* Will someone be dragging out a Clue board next?* :laugh: )

Football.

I looked at the piks and the crate (box) in the plane says Hilton Tool and Machine Co. Bronx 60 N.Y.
On the top was stamped what looks like POS (positive blood?)
On the side you can read GAUZE


Nigeria, where the dead guy was from, have cement and other building materials (Michael in construction for 8 years), printing (paper), footwear!! and "peanuts" are primary industries!!

Money laundering, corruption and criminal activity is prevalent.

Medical supplies would make a good cover for a mission "priest " trafficing drugs.

As would Madonna statues.

HHHaaaaaaa.....

with the help of SG.... Lenny, Hurley and Mama Locke could all have bumped into each other...

... it depends on the time.... but.... in a close up of Hurley's "Visitor" badge when he's visiting Lenny...

... you can clearly read "Rosa...Institute", frankly the odds of there being two is slim....


YEA!! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

you can clearly read "Rosa...Institute", frankly the odds of there being two is slim....



I agree, kg. SG is something else, eh? The thing that I am interested in finding out is the date of her last admission. I couldn't read it on the screen cap, but I was able to decipher that she had been there more than once.

Rosa - another red reference!* :)


What other red references have their been?

I recall the term red herring used a lot.

Rosa - another red reference! :)


why red ?

rossa or rosso is red in italian
Rosa is Rose in Latin (not necessarily red rose) btw rose is French for "pink"
but we have a Rose on the show
where has she been, maybe no-one ever noticed that she left the camp in search of her husband

Oh, red herring -- interesting thought! *Maybe red isn't danger, it's a misdirect.

Still, good connect there kgmaus!

(Connect 4, Mousetrap, Backgammon, war games... any other game references in this show? Will someone be dragging out a Clue board next? :laugh: )


Don't forget Golf! Not exactly the "sit down and play" type of games that you mentioned, but a prominent on in the show nonetheless. But perhaps that's crossing into "Sports", not games.

why red ?



I think they are saying red because Santa Rosa Institute is in California, and it's a Spanish name. Rosa is red in Spanish. Or maybe you already know that and I'm missing your point? Taken in that context, I think I agree, though I'm not sure where all the red is coming into this. Anyone want to enlighten me? Where did the red thing come from? Hmmm, Bess, I am suddenly reminded of that flag on Locke's table.

Waltisfuture,

I'm not sure where you're hearing the term red herring. I haven't heard anything about it in the show. Though someone may be talking on the boards about red herrings. If that is the case, I think they are maybe saying the writers are throwing a lot of red herrings at us. Or have I missed something? Anyone?

I thought he meant red herrings in the character's lives, like, Locke's father (red folder) held out the red herring (sort of) of wanting to form a relationship with his son, but really he just wanted his kidney.*

Or, that the color red might not signify danger so much as it signifies falseness, or a trap of some kind.

I've been thinking back to the Charlie-and-the-girl episode but I only saw it once, so I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly, but someone mentioned all the red lamps in the girl's father's house... in that episode, Charlie set out to con her and changed his mind.* Now I wonder if he was conned somehow himself.*

Sawyer the con man was conned, Kate the con artist was turned in by the farmer, Michael was conned into believing Susan was just thinking over their relationship (and later he was pretty much conned into letting Brian adopt Walt, and then into taking Walt back); Locke was conned by his dad, Jack was conned by his dad into signing the papers at first.* Claire... conned by the psychic into getting on a doomed flight.* Boone... conned out of money by Shannon.* Sayid was conned into blaming Sawyer for his head bonking.* Whole lotta conning going on.* *:laugh:* Not that I know what to make of it.

...Will someone be dragging out a Clue board next? :laugh: )


...HURLEY...with the COCONUT...on the BEACH :lol2: :lol2:

* this is the only one I disagree with is the Sayid con. It doesn't seem to measure up to the others - I wonder if we'll see a more devious con in his past later?

Red - there's a thread that's been discussing all the red references in DEM and other eppys...red red everywhere! Red cars, red folders, red in the name of hospitals, red lamps...


He was conned into letting Nadia go free. I'd say that was a pretty worthy con. She didn't even have to put out.

Oh, interesting concept Sheba -- until you said that, I never looked at that story at anything but face value.*

Bess, yeah that one's kind of weak, but the thing about it that made it stand out for me was how very easy it was for Locke to make him conclude it was Sawyer.

Thanks for catching me up on the red thing everyone.

I think they could accommodate wheelchair bound participants in some way, but perhaps not the one kidney people?
Just a thought.

Well, I think that's a very reasonable theory. I have a close friend that I've had since high school who was born with only one kidney. She has always had to be careful about getting over-heated. She seldom drinks sodas, and considers a lot of other drinks off limits. She said she only had one kidney and she had to be careful of the workload she gave it if she wanted it to last.

The only problem is.....he's been missing a kidney a lot longer than 4 years. Hmmmmm.....

I know someone who donated a kidney to her brother.* She had to go to the bathroom a lot more frequently than the norm, but that may have been because she insisted on drinking sodas.* And beer.* That was about as much as it affected her though, so far as I knew.* *She went through a pregnancy with no problems.

Of course, Locke's operation could have been botched somehow, and it affected him later down the road.* (Four years before the Walkabout.)

Of course, Locke's operation could have been botched somehow, and it affected him later down the road. *(Four years before the Walkabout.)


Good point!

My new thoughts about black/white/red. *All of this could be a religious theme, but it could also be foreshadowing. *If we stick with a religious context, and we can see black/white as evil/good, we can see red/blood as what cleanses. *Perhaps we are seeing the foreshadowing of a bloodbath? *Hmmm....scarey, but it could help some of the lostaways in clearing up some of their past guilt, and become less ambiguous characters.

Perhaps the red is a signal of who has killed or will kill later? *Red lamps/Charlie killed Ethan. *How many lamps were there? *How many times did he shoot Ethan? * :laugh: *I know it's a stretch. *I'm just considering. *Maybe the red folder that signified Locke's father was a signal that Cooper had killed? *Locke's red car, a symbol that he had or would kill. *Just a little rambling....

we can see red/blood as what cleanses.* Perhaps we are seeing the foreshadowing of a bloodbath?* Hmmm....scarey, but it could help some of the lostaways in clearing up some of their past guilt, and become less ambiguous characters.


Blood = cleansing, but more important is the rain that's been present all along

sometimes there are what are called "Red Rains"
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nkerala2.htm for an example
the red color of the rain is supposed to be a fungus - maybe something to do with hallucinations, etc
some red rains are caused by sand from the sahara raining down with the water

side note, there was also a song titled "red rain" by peter gabriel


also if you want to go real deep in red symbol
in the pilot Locke had an orange in his mouth, some oranges are called "blood oranges"

Has anyone listed all the reds anywhere?* The golf flag was literally a red flag.* It would be funny if it ended up having a double meaning.* *:laugh:

It seems like red was connected with at least a few cons -- Charlie conning the girl, Cooper conning Locke... I can't remember whether there was any red in other con scenes.*

Isn't the Nigerian flag red white and black, and if not which flag is?

Isn't the Nigerian flag red white and black, and if not which flag is?


Nope, sorry, it's green and white.
Yemen is red, white & black.

What do we know about Yemen?
Is there a flag with red, black, white and yellow?

Been scanning to catch up...

Has anyone thought that the color red alludes to the idea that the person connected with RED is being lied to, or conned.... as mentioned earlier?

Red Shirts in S.T. were being... well... excluded from the dangers of the "Away Mission".* They were ignorant to the dangers and hence died because of that lack of information. They weren't lied to... but more conned. Or more a ( I do not want to get into any sort of disagreement over the training, etc. of Red Shirts in S.T. the point is... they weren't prepared by their Leader to be cautious... hence Locke's observation of a, "Piss poor Leader."

BUT...

Then again.... there's Tabula Rosa... "Clean Slate". Maybe the color RED refers to the sence of "enlightenment".
Locke's been conned out of kidney, nuff said... could it be his red car is a sign of.... it's time to move on? LIke the red ties on the trees. A red tie on a tree means, "Move on to the next tree with a red tie."

Actually, when you stop and look... there's been a conspicuos lack of red within the show. Only in flashbacks have we seen this color.
In nature, Walts dead bird for one, we see RED all around us. Look around you. You'll see RED. Look on the sets on the island, no RED. A possible connection to the real world and the island...?? Maybe.

Go back and look... where is the color red? Not on the island.

Interesting observation, kgmaus.* There is one red thing on the island though -- the golf flag.* But you're right, overall there's a lack of red.*

Funny to think about that piss-poor leader remark in light of Boone falling with that plane.* (After a vision in which he's red with blood.)

I would personally argue that the term redshirt doesn't mean someone has a piss-poor leader or that they're unprepared, it means they aren't not an important cast member.* Er... like Boone.* *:laugh:* But I take your point.

Has anybody else wondered if the entire bunch of castaways have somehow been conned?* Yeah I know it would be impossible to pull off a con that big... I wonder anyway.

Excellent verbiage Kato!

Everyone on the island has been lied to, or conned. These "lies" or "Cons" have been shown to the viewers with a connection of RED.

The red golf bag alludes to a lie or con. "Here Hurley, make use of this RED gulf bag. Okay... let me use your indiferent "slight of hand" to distract the other Lostaways from your real objective... Claire.

The use of that by Ethan is a con.

Ah right, Ethan provided the golf game!* I keep forgetting that!* The thing that always bugged me about that episode is that they made a point out of Claire being alone, and yet Ethan (or whoever) waited until she was sleeping in a crowd of people to approach her.* When they could easily have done whatever they wanted while everyone was busy playing golf.

So -- maybe something happened to Claire when nobody was looking, and the subsequent events were a result of that?* And distracted from it?* Sleight of hand.

I agree, con is just written all over things.*

Does anybody have a screencap of that missing dog flyer?* Was somebody advertising a reward for a missing dog, or advertising that they could find missing dogs?* I'm wondering now how Locke chose his P.I.

The color theory makes some sense, but I kinda hope it's wrong. It's too close to the Sixth Sense. I'd be really disappointed since originality is one of the things I love about Lost.

RE: The Sixth Sense - spoilered for anyone who hasn't seen it and may still want too -

The only time you see the color red is when a ghost or dead person is present.

I saw this post some time ago, and I can't let it go.

I know it's way out there, but when I read Kato's comment re: does anyone think they are all being conned?

There is a 2nd flight 815, and these people are part of a (fill in the blank) government experiment(my guess).

Back to reality, I just read an excellent post by Sam Grant on the use of primary colors in this show.

Oh, I like the idea of a mastermind in the lostaways!* My vote would be for Kate.

Sheba, I do see your point.* Although, since so many things about the show remind someone of books or movies, it could be that they are doing it deliberately and it's really a misdirection.* :laugh:* Like, we now expect the color red to mean something -- so we don't notice the color that actually does mean something.*

Walt, I like that too -- a different flight #815 takes off and explodes somewhere where it's easily found, or it lands safely without incident.....* where would the flight # be, anyway?* It's on the tickets, in the computer, on the whatchacallit announcement board -- is that about it?* If a pilot decided to start calling it Flight Whatever in his communications, could he get away with that?*

Kato

It just won't leave my mind. I'm thinking it's Walts intuition, rubbing off on me. :lol2:

The original poster had said the first flight landed safely, so noone is looking for the 2nd plane. It could explain why there were so few injuries ie: the plane crash was simulated, the survivors were given superficial wounds and let the experiment begin.

Something along the line of starting a new society, or human nature, dynamics etc.

Oh, I like the idea of a mastermind in the lostaways! My vote would be for Kate.


Yeah, and Locke is working for her. There's something just not right about their expressions in that "orange smile" scene.

And the way he said "you're just full of surprises, aren't you?" in that tracking scene has always stuck in my mind for some reason.* I could never figure out what other ways she surprised him on the island, or why he would say it that way... kind of annoyed.

Walt, I like that too -- a different flight #815 takes off and explodes somewhere where it's easily found, or it lands safely without incident.....* where would the flight # be, anyway?* It's on the tickets, in the computer, on the whatchacallit announcement board -- is that about it?* If a pilot decided to start calling it Flight Whatever in his communications, could he get away with that?*


The flight number would have been read to the passengers at booking time, would be on their ticket, in the computer, on their boarding pass, on their luggage tags, on the flight board, on the manifest and announced during the boarding call.* It's also on the radar as flight 815.* The passengers probably wouldn't have boarded flight number* #815 if it hadn't been announced that way, and they wouldn't have heard the communications with ground control from the cockpit?* Just offering up my airline experience for your edification* :)

Also ...

I am thinking that the writers needed to have one of the pilots survive to say "we lost communications 6 hours in and headed back toward Fiji ... we were 1000 miles off course ... they're looking for us in the wrong place" to partly explain why the has been no successful search party (another DEM offering maybe?).

So essentially, once a plane is in the air, the only thing identifying it as flight #Whatever is its radio signature... which the pilot lost?

We have been given information that they lost (radio) communication 6 hours into the flight ... I am not sure if that would be all-encompassing of radar transmission as well. I'm not a pilot or air traffic controller, but I'm guessing that it could be possible for the plane to lose radio contact but for it still to be visible on ground-to-air radar systems ...

Perhaps in future eps or the finale's we shall be privy to such information... like being in an air traffic control room and seeing the flight disappear from radar? :-\

But if ithe plane were still visible on radar and identifiable as Flight 815, the pilot wouldn't have said "they're looking in the wrong place" would he?* The plane would have been tracked turning around and heading to wherever it headed.* I mean it can't be both invisible and visible at the same time.

Aaah. This is true, Kato. So - ALL communication was lost 6 hours into the flight ... or at some time during the flight. Still think it's odd that the pilot would turn the plane off due-course in this instance instead of sticking to the flight-plan. If the aircraft was experiencing difficulties at the time they lost contact, then that would be understandable - but, from my understanding, the aircraft was still serviceable only the communications were lost.

Hmm... ??? What a strange pilot ...

The pilot was in the middle of the ocean, with only islands to land on. He probably used his instruments to find land.

I guess my issue is not how would he know where he was going, but why would he change course?*

Some research into this situation has given me the following information...

"The procedure for lost communication emergencies is simple: follow your last clearance. If the flight under discussion follows its last clearance, the controllers can predict where it will go and can still keep other flights out of harms way. If in addition to losing communication and transponder the flight starts to deviate from its last clearance, the whole system is in an emergency condition. Alarms all over the country would be going off."

Eh - it's probably not something that we should be considering.* After all, how many of the popularis generalis (other than the 10,000 or so of us on this site who are totally obsessed) would question the pilot looking for a safe place to land when he lost communications anyway?* Sounds like a solid plot line when you don't delve into it.

<insert big orange peel smile here>

;)

Yep I can verify that, because I dug around too -- the pilot did not follow procedure.* He also would have announced the turn-around.* And even if it's just fiction, those kinds of things should be researched; you shouldn't have a pilot throwing procedure to the winds any more than you should have a surgeon use the wrong knife to start an operation: that's what technical advisors are for.* So it does aggravate me, even though someone will come along shortly to tell me why it shouldn't.* *:laugh:

Of course, there is always the chance that it's not sloppy research and that the pilot deliberately disabled radio communications and turned around.*

And there is also the chance that Flight 815 lost radio contact and then regained it shortly thereafter, but it was a different plane claiming to be Flight 815.* And that Flight 815 went down in some spectacular and visible way which would account for the immediate "there were no survivors" (if that's what was said -- I know it's in dispute).* *

Do I think that happened -- no, because the writers have been remarkably straightforward for all the mystery they've thrown around...* Locke was indeed paralyzed, and that was his wheelchair; they could have done any number of sneaky things with that storyline since they left themselves plenty of room ("my condition") -- but they didn't.* It was what it seemed to be.*

Other things have proceeded in a straight and logical line as well.* Boone seemed a little too interested in his sister -- and he was.* Jack did "something" to his father and the natural conclusion was that he turned him in for drinking on the job -- and he did.* We knew Locke's dad had set him up before the hospital scene ever revealed it, we knew Kate planned the bank robbery and was conning Bank Guy, and so on...* so I'd be real surprised at this point if the oddity of the plane turning around was plot-related and not just a research oversight.* I'd prefer it to be a plot point, because it's such a great little lynchpin of a plot point: if the pilot turned around deliberately, everything changes.* But I don't hold out much hope for that anymore.

But if ithe plane were still visible on radar and identifiable as Flight 815, the pilot wouldn't have said "they're looking in the wrong place" would he?* The plane would have been tracked turning around and heading to wherever it headed.* I mean it can't be both invisible and visible at the same time.


Very good point there Kato..and one I hadn't considered.
But forgive me if this is a silly statement & I'm hoping Suzzy can confirm this or not...but don't aircraft fly in & out of ATC "zones".....
I mean radar does not have infinite range and 6 hours into a flight is a fair distance traveled? Could they have been out or between zones?

Not sure about that one Rayder. One would hope, though, that there weren't any "black spots" over the Pacific Ocean (or anywhere else for that reason) where aircraft are not under radar watch. Posslble they may confer with each other that an aircraft has dropped out of one ATC zone and into another to ensure the flight is on course and unharmed?

I think that Kato may be right in that it may well just turn out to be an explanation for a "no-rescue" situation that was simple and believable. Some things are turning out to be much more important than others in the series. I am hoping that prior to Seasons' end we will have some more closure on the aircraft side of things.

We certainly have lots of ideas out there on the board!

Maybe we should run a competition to see which aircraft/flight related thread wins?! :lol2:

After all that's what the 9/11 hijackers did.



Very, interesting. 8and 1/2 hours to maybe find out.

Yep I can verify that, because I dug around too -- the pilot did not follow procedure. He also would have announced the turn-around. And even if it's just fiction, those kinds of things should be researched; you shouldn't have a pilot throwing procedure to the winds any more than you should have a surgeon use the wrong knife to start an operation: that's what technical advisors are for. So it does aggravate me, even though someone will come along shortly to tell me why it shouldn't. :laugh:

OK, I'll do it.
Kato, you really should not be aggravated because............. uhm ...........er .........hmm .......

Right on Dude!
They really should have had some technical crisis in addition to the communications failures to justify turning around and heading for Fiji. Perhaps they did - the plane did break into 3 pieces in mid-air after all. We'll just have to wait and see.

Maybe we should run a competition to see which aircraft/flight related thread wins?!

This place is more of a think tank than anything -- one person says something that makes another person think "what if" that makes someone else connect two things, that inspires someone else to wonder if a third thing fits too… i.e.* no theory is an island (ha), everybody contributed something to it.* The people who add information and thoughts to a theory contribute, and so do the people who nitpick. So if something ends up nailing it, I say we all take the credit.*

After all that's what the 9/11 hijackers did.

Ah, right!

Kato, you really should not be aggravated because............. uhm* ...........er* .........hmm .......

:laugh:

Not sure about that one Rayder.* One would hope, though, that there weren't any "black spots" over the Pacific Ocean (or anywhere else for that reason) where aircraft are not under radar watch.* Possible they may confer with each other that an aircraft has dropped out of one ATC zone and into another to ensure the flight is on course and unharmed?


Hmmmm, I'm still not convinced there is 100% radar coverage between Aus & the US....as scary as that sounds* ;)
I did a search....and I'll be the first one to admit it took a LOT of searching but came up with this:

STATEMENT OF CHARLES KEEGAN
ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR FOR RESEARCH AND ACQUISITIONS
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
BEFORE THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON
TRANSPORTATION & INFRASTRUCTURE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION
ON FAAíS AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL MODERNIZATION PROGRAMS
OCTOBER 30, 2003
Quote: "The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) allocated 80 percent of the worldís controlled oceanic airspace to the FAA ñ approximately 3 million square miles in the Atlantic Ocean, 18 million square miles in the Pacific Ocean as well as airspace over the Arctic Ocean ñ and we must manage it in the best interests of the international aviation community.*
Managing the airspace over the ocean presents challenges because there is no radar coverage.* Air traffic controllers must rely on position reports that are transmitted by radio from aircraft, an imprecise system"

Now he may have been referring to lighter civilian aircraft not large International craft it doesn't say, but still....no radar coverage is no radar coverage .
The point I want to make is to differentiate between an external sensing system like an ATC radar and the aircrafts internal system such as transponder and GPS. *If* the aircraft happened to be out of direct radar contact at the time and there was a failure of the internal system(s) prior/during/after the "incident" in the cargo hold.....wouldn't we have an invisible aircraft flying around the sky with no one having a clue where it might be?* ;)

I admit it's all speculation on my part...but just trying to give a logical explanation to remove that spanner from our well oiled solution machine* :laugh:

This place is more of a think tank than anything



Think Tank, I love the sound of that. It would make a good name for a thread. ;D

It's been awhile since this thread was used - but b/c I was working on Sledgeweb's hunt- and in one of the clue's he mentions Locke's work buddy - GL-12. So, I am wondering if there's any significance to GL-12 - is it a military directive or form?

I played around with google, and came up with
USGS Heat Flow Data for California http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/heatflow/Data/GL12.html

AND some paper from the Society of Rheology

http://www.rheology.org/sor02a/abstract.asp?paperid=110

Well, I didn't know what rheology was so I googled that : http://aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-10/iss-2/p29.html
Rheology is the study of the flow of materials that behave in an interesting or unusual manner. Oil and water flow in familiar, normal ways, whereas mayonnaise, peanut butter, chocolate, bread dough, and Silly Putty flow in complex and unusual ways. In rheology, we study the flows of unusual materials.”

Facinating! Any other thoughts?

Hi Bess

I loved this thread, it was my fav, thanks for resurrecting it.

I've read all 3 sites and this is all I get out of it,

Everything Flows - The Greek letters on the hourglass logo of The Society of Rheology— panta rei (sometimes pronounced phonetically “ panta rei”)—may be translated “everything flows.” This phrase (or philosophy) is attributed to the Greek philosopher Heraclitus of Ephesus (536–470 BCE) and is taken from the more complete quote: “Everything flows and nothing abides; everything gives way and nothing stays fixed.” The Society motto was suggested by Eugene Cook Bingham, the father of SOR, at the time of the Society’s founding in 1929, and it reflects the field of study of rheology — deformation and flow, no matter how unlikely. For example, we are used to the concept of fluid flow, but solids also flow, under the right conditions of time and stress.

Does this mean that islands are actually flowing all the time?* Another take I have on it, is about everyones characters, and how they are all changing.* “Everything flows and nothing abides; everything gives way and nothing stays fixed.”

Oil and water flow in familiar, normal ways, whereas mayonnaise, peanut butter, chocolate, bread dough, and Silly Putty flow in complex and unusual ways.* Is this why Charlie and Claire had their peanut butter moment?* So we would find this clue?

Speaker: Alex J. Hsieh, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, U.S. Army Research Laboratory
Authors: Alex J. Hsieh, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, U.S. Army Research Laboratory
Paul Moy, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, U.S. Army Materials Research Laboratory

I've tried to find what kind of weapons they were making, but got nada.

The rest is too scientific for me to understand, but this jumps out at me.
GL12 Dependence of mechanical properties and viscoelastic relaxation on nanoclay loading of intercalated polycarbonate nanocomposites.* *(what is a nanocomposite?)

Waltisfuture - interesting about the Greek - over on the Tiberius thread - a lot has been discussed about Greek - I'll have to and check that thread to see if the letters/phrase is the same or similar.

Peanut butter - good pick up. I had forgotten about the peanut butter scene.

nanocomposites - I have no idea and am trouble find a site that defines them - but in light of all the nanotechnology theories that have been flying around on the boards - must pay more attention. I am assuming it's a composite of something at the nano level?


I love this thread as well!

It's a pleasure to discuss things with you, Waltisfuture! :)

Bess, I think GL-12 may also be a reference to Green Lantern, as in the comic book. There were a lot of Green Lanterns in a lot of different worlds. I'm afraid I'm not up on Green Lantern mythology to be much more help than that though.

Oh. (her face falling) Green Lantern. Somehow I find that less exciting than nanocomposites and Greek phrases. But, you may be right - being that he seemed to be a gamer, and probably liked comics as well. (not to mention Hurley's comic)

*sigh* :)

Evertime I hear mention of the Latern, I think that we haven't fully developed that clue.

There are tons of references to lamps, in backstories, and the comics name infers light.

Does nanotech. ever include light. I think of a laser gun, and that could be the weapon they are developing?

I guess it does - read this : http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/08/0819_040819_nanointernet.html

Canadian researchers have devised a new polymer material by manipulating buckyballs (carbon atoms that look like soccer balls). The technology could be used to create optical (light based) switches to replace electronic network switches. It could lead to an Internet based entirely on light.
Nanotechnology is the art of manipulating materials on an atomic or molecular scale.

Who knew? :laugh:

Oh. (her face falling) Green Lantern. Somehow I find that less exciting than nanocomposites and Greek phrases. But, you may be right - being that he seemed to be a gamer, and probably liked comics as well. (not to mention Hurley's comic)

:lol2: Well, Bess, I don't know that that's what GL-12 means. :lol2:

It just seemed pretty likely to me. ;) Besides, there are layers to consider. I've seen a lot of things in the show that I think have double meanings, maybe even triple. :lol2:

Oh! (her face lights up the possibilty that GL-12 may, in fact, mean something so ultracool that no one really understands it!) ;)

I haven't read any of the nano tech stuff, cuz I thought it would be boring, but you got me hooked now.* Look at all the goodies I found.

http://www.atlasmining.com/releases.html* *Mining and Nano Tech?* *Atlas mining company


From auto parts to barrier packaging, the race is on to commercialize nano-clay thermoplastic composites. Just a pinch of these infinitesimally small particles can dramatically raise mechanical, thermal, barrier, and flame-retardant properties.



http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/21549.html

Nano-Clay May Shape Micro-Devices
By Mike Martin
May 20, 2003 11:11AM

"We're interested in making clay particles smart materials by combining them with functional organic molecules," said Cliff Johnston, a researcher at Purdue's Birck Nanotechnology Center.

Using a method that captures nano-size clay particles on a crystal, U.S. and Belgian researchers claim they have created an ultra-thin film that may yield new materials for medical, engineering and electronic devices.
Seventy-thousand times thinner than a human hair, the clay nano-film could help thwart terrorism and prevent further space shuttle disasters, according to Cliff Johnston, a Purdue University professor of agronomy and environmental chemistry. The film may be used to make better chemical sensors and super-strong, self-sealing substances for use aboard spacecraft or to house computers.

Edited because I didn't give the sites
'Nano-bumps' could help repair clogged blood vessels http://news.uns.purdue.edu/hp/Webster.stent.html

New opportunities from old chemistry in surface science, say Purdue chemists http://news.uns.purdue.edu/hp/Wei.sensor.html

June 3-4 - Dog volunteers sought for training, behavior classes http://news.uns.purdue.edu/hp/Shaw.dogs.html

Laser Light May Fuel Nanomotors - (11-Apr-03) http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=21246

Motorola Prototypes Nano Flash Memory Chip - (31-Mar-03)* http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=21136

Nanowire Circuits Could Spur Computing Advances - (28-Mar-03)* http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=21120

Nimble Nanoswitch May Win Info Relay Race - (13-Sep-02)* http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=19400

What Can Nanotech Do for You? - (4-Sep-02)* http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=19278


NANOCOMPOSITES* *http://www.physics.siu.edu/malhotra/vivek/nanocomposites.htm