I didn't see a thread about this so sorry if it's already being discussed...

If Ben is telling the truth and there are "innocents" on the freighter, could he mean people that don't know what the real mission is? If so, who could they be? I'm hoping he might be referring to Daniel at least but maybe some of the other scientists as well.

Anyone have thoughts as to who he might be referring to? Must be more than one!

I think Lapidus (sp) is one. He seemed genuinely concerned about the possible survivors.

Well, remember Miles saying that "80% of the people" on the boat had something to hide? Perhaps that other 20% are the innocents.

My guess is that so far we've not been shown any innocents - including Lapidus. He knows full well what Widmore's intentions are towards the people on the Island - but does he warn them? No.

i would say daniel and minkowski, so far... i like frank, he's knows too much and does too little about it to be innocent though... same with miles, he didn't deny they were to kill everyone on the island, and he'll know a lot of what's going due to his 'ability'.

Well, if he's actually telling the truth, which is doubtful, I'd guess Daniel, Charlotte and Miles, and maybe the general ship's crew. I'm not so sure about Frank, especially if Ben knew he was supposed to be the original pilot. And we know Ben knows everything. ;)

Well, remember Miles saying that "80% of the people" on the boat had something to hide? Perhaps that other 20% are the innocents.

My guess is that so far we've not been shown any innocents - including Lapidus. He knows full well what Widmore's intentions are towards the people on the Island - but does he warn them? No.

I do think he meant Daniels and Lapidus- not sure about Charlotte. Maybe Regina and Minkowski. As far a Lapidus - I think the way he said it implies otherwise. He said "Widmore is the only person who believes me that 815 is still out there" or something to those effects. Widmore probably does not want Lapidus out there spouting his theory- since he may have put the fake boat out there and doesn't want anyone else to go looking. He probably view Lapidus as expendable...

Frank is one. The only reason he was recruited was that he knew the sunken 815 was fake and Widmore didn't want anyone finding out. So Widmore recruited him to control him.

i would say daniel and minkowski, so far... i like frank, he's knows too much and does too little about it to be innocent though... same with miles, he didn't deny they were to kill everyone on the island, and he'll know a lot of what's going due to his 'ability'.

If Daniel Farraday is "innocent", then why hasn't he told the truth about what those dudes with the automatic rifles on the boat have in mind for all the Island's inhabitants yet? One cannot be "innocent", at least in my opinion, if he withholds such information from the innocent people that will be gunned down in cold blood by those killers. No way are any of the Freighter Four (Frank, Charlotte, Miles or Daniel) "innocent"!!! Not one of them has told the truth to the people on the Island about what is in store for them on board the ship.
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Widmore probably does not want Lapidus out there spouting his theory- since he may have put the fake boat out there and doesn't want anyone else to go looking. He probably view Lapidus as expendable...

Why go to the bother? Widmore would have just deep-sixed Lapidus, if that was the case...

I would say Lapidus, Faraday, Lewis, and Straume. All "recruited" by Abaddon, but not under the direct control of Widmore. Naomi had it right: These four are on a "need-to-know" basis, which could be beneficial.

I would say Lapidus, Faraday, Lewis, and Straume. All "recruited" by Abaddon, but not under the direct control of Widmore. Naomi had it right: These four are on a "need-to-know" basis, which could be beneficial.

I disagree. They know what is up with the gun-slinging mercenaries on board the freighter. Whenever anyone asks Danny about what is in store for them, he just hums and haws and tries to evade the question. He KNOWS.

I disagree. They know what is up with the gun-slinging mercenaries on board the freighter. Whenever anyone asks Danny about what is in store for them, he just hums and haws and tries to evade the question. He KNOWS.

I agree with you on some level but I think it's the way Ben defines "innocents" which is the key here. Doesn't he say something along the lines of people not knowing how evil Widmore really is?

The scene with Frank talking to Michael was a big clue. Frank had been told that Widmore agrees with him (that the plane wreckage wasn't real) and - now we have proof that it was Widmore who put it there - manipulated Frank to get on that freighter. So Frank would be an innocent, since he doesn't know Widmore's truth motive (or the fact he dug up corpses etc etc).

I assume that the Freighter Four (Faraday, Charlotte, Miles and Frank) have only been told what they need to know. Widmore has obviously told them that Ben is to blame for everything and he himself is trying to help. The Freighter Four think Widmore is a good guy. Which means they are probably the innocents.

The Freighter Four think Widmore is a good guy. Which means they are probably the innocents.

Okay, I see your point. But doncha think they also know that those mercenaries on the freighter are going to murder everyone on the Island?

The Freighter Four think Widmore is a good guy. Which means they are probably the innocents.


I dunno. Ben shot Charlotte - while he was saying that he wouldn't kill innocents. Also, he would kill Miles in a heartbeat, I have no doubt about that. I don't believe a word Ben is saying. Ever. Again.

Frank is one. The only reason he was recruited was that he knew the sunken 815 was fake and Widmore didn't want anyone finding out. So Widmore recruited him to control him.

Nah, Widmore could have just had Frank snuffed out without going to all that trouble. Widmore and Frank are on the same team - they want Ben and they want answers.

Okay, I see your point. But doncha think they also know that those mercenaries on the freighter are going to murder everyone on the Island?

Well, they've probably been told awful things about Ben and the Hostiles (maybe). About the Purge (we know they know something about the Purge since it was referenced in The Other Woman) so I guess they assume they're going to kill Ben and his gang or at least taken them back into civilisation.

I dunno. Ben shot Charlotte - while he was saying that he wouldn't kill innocents. Also, he would kill Miles in a heartbeat, I have no doubt about that. I don't believe a word Ben is saying. Ever. Again.

Yes, true. But Ben is a liar. He says things like "I won't hurt innocents" in order to manipulate. I'm sure he'd kill anyone who was a threat to the island and it's secrets.

I would say Lapidus, Faraday, Lewis, and Straume. All "recruited" by Abaddon, but not under the direct control of Widmore. Naomi had it right: These four are on a "need-to-know" basis, which could be beneficial.

Since Ben shot Lewis in the chest we have to assume she was not one of the innocents.

Nah, Widmore could have just had Frank snuffed out without going to all that trouble. Widmore and Frank are on the same team - they want Ben and they want answers.

Funny how Frank didn't ask any of the Losties if the captain was alive, or anything else about 815. Maybe he isn't innocent after all.

Lapidus, Daniel, Regina and Minkowski.
Everyone else to me is suspect.

I thought perhaps Ben was refering to Sayid and Desmond as the 'innocents'. I'm sure, since he is all knowing, he is aware of their presence on the boat.

But, I DO think Daniel and Faraday are unaware of Widmore's true purpose. Miles and Charlotte .... bad news.

i would say daniel and minkowski, so far... i like frank, he's knows too much and does too little about it to be innocent though... same with miles, he didn't deny they were to kill everyone on the island, and he'll know a lot of what's going due to his 'ability'.
I seriously doubt that the freighties are there to kill everyone. I think Miles didn't object to Ben's little story, because it's all part of what Ben needs to do to get Miles his money.
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Since Ben shot Lewis in the chest we have to assume she was not one of the innocents.
Come on people... what does Ben have to do before you stop listening to his BS? Ben couldn't care less of someone is innocent or not. Ben kills when and whomever it benefits him to kill.

I thought perhaps Ben was refering to Sayid and Desmond as the 'innocents'. I'm sure, since he is all knowing, he is aware of their presence on the boat.



I thought of that at first too but then realized Desmond and Sayid weren't there yet when Michael got that call. By the time they showed up, the communications room had been sabotaged.

Ben doesn't have to kill innocents. He's got people. And I don't mean H&R Block. :D

Lapidus, Daniel, Regina and Minkowski.
Everyone else to me is suspect.

Same. Minkowski seemed to be there just to have a job and maybe the adventure. I think Dan is wayyy over his head and has no clue as to how much bad stuff he's involved with. Frank seems kind of detatched from the mission and as we saw yesterday he really thinks he's on the good side.

I just rewatched it. Frank doesn't think they are there to kill all on the island, so he has to be "innocent" unless he is lying. I am sure there are others but not the guys who were shooting. They knew they weren't on a rescue mission. Tom didn't say anything about "innocents": So it makes you wonder if Ben lies to get Michael to do what he wants. Like Ben doesn't really care about innocents, he just says that to make Michael think he is really good.

When he says: "Imagine if we were to find those people alive...", it didn't strike me as if he meant: "We'll go medieval on their :censored: and kill them all!" I think Frank is a true conspiracy theorist (probably had posters of Gillian Anderson in his locker room at Oceanic ;) ) and wants to be on the side of good. He thinks they're going to find those people and rescue them, but he's aware of Widmore's enemy, or at least of Widmore's version of him and knows it's not going to be a cut and dry thing and yeah, they're going there to get violent with Ben.

I don't think Ben meant "pure as snow" (plus, he's manipulating Michael there and I don't put much stock in what he says in general anyway. He LIES). Nobody is innocent that way on the whole show, save maybe for Aaron. But I doubt Charlotte and Dan are there to take scalps, they care about the science.

Good thread, btw. I was wondering the same thing last night, but didn't remember to mention it anywhere.

Here's what I've got from them so far:

Naomi knew what she was there for, obviously. I'd say most of the other people on board {Keamy and such} know why they're there.

Miles wasn't the least bit surprised when Ben said about how his mission was to kill everyone else on the island.

Dan has no idea what the hell he's doing there. I think that's pretty obvious...maybe they told him they were just there to conduct scientific experiments or something to that affect. But he obviously isn't thinking of killing the Losties.

Charlotte's kind of hard to read. I mean, the whole "saving everyone from the gas" thing happened...but I'm still not sure I really get that. She might know more than she lets on.

Frank thinks he knows what's going on. I don't think he really does though, he seems a bit out of the loop.

So I think, out of the four of them, Miles knows what they're out to do. I'm sure he doesn't know the full reason behind it, but he knows they want him to kill everyone but Ben. Dan's clueless, Frank's pretty clueless too, and Charlotte...I have no idea.

Funny how Frank didn't ask any of the Losties if the captain was alive, or anything else about 815. Maybe he isn't innocent after all.

Yea, funny indeed. But if we haven't seen it doesn't mean it hadn't happened.

Come on people... what does Ben have to do before you stop listening to his BS? Ben couldn't care less of someone is innocent or not. Ben kills when and whomever it benefits him to kill.

Haha. how true. Coming from the guy who purged out the whole Dharma with cats and dogs (ok, except bunnies), it is rather hilarious of him to say that he wouldn't kill innocents. Puhlease, why do we even speculate on it? It was just another mind-game... torturing poor Michael. I'm no fan of his, but what Ben did to him... it was below cruel. I mean... having him ready to make a kamikaze mission, so end his own life along with a boat full of people... and then a note pops up saying "Loser" (well, it felt like it anyway)... it was beyond anything I could take. Ben is a monster.

Everyone seems to be ascribing their own concept of innocent/good or whatever as to the people on the freighter.

It's pretty clear by now that the Others have some concept of their own that makes a person a 'good' person. It may or may not have something to do with what we generally would believe constitutes good in moral terms. I'd guess it doesn't.


You know, despite being exposed full-on to the Others in Season 3 (first introduced to them at the end of Season 1 and mentioned earlier), we still don't have the slightest clue what makes them tick or what their motives are. And we're now 2/3 of the way through the fourth of six seasons. That's pretty frustrating frankly - why haven't any of the Losties really probed Juliet about what was going on? Why hasn't Locke found out the bigger picture from Ben? There's only so long that the writers can get away with avoiding the obvious questions.

I think that whole bomb thing was simply a way for Ben to test Michael. There is no real point in blowing up the freighter. Widmore would just send another. It seems to me that Ben would be better off trying to defeat the freighties as is, than try to sink each new boat that Widmore sends.

I don't believe any of the crew are innocents except maybe for grunts on Kevin Johnson's level and Ben wouldn't care about them. It appears that most of the crew were selected for very specific reasons. The rifles, disabling defenses at the Tempest - they may not know the whole picture but each one obviously has an agenda that is somewhat less than above board.

I think until the losties called the boat, all of our guys Charlotte, Miles, Faraday had no idea there were survivors. Lapidus suspects there are survivors but they were still told that there would be no survivors and the only people there are the natives or as we know them, the others.

I could understand why Widmore and his gang would send mercenaries to the Island, Ben is capable of anything including killing everyone on the Island, good or bad. The temple is the only place shielded, could explain why he sent Alex there.

I don't think Widmore is the bad guy, the only group sick enough to dig 300 some corpses in Thailand is Ben's group. Even the boat's captain looks to be helpful and gave Sayid and Des all the information he had. It's more we can say about anyone of the others.

I did find it hard to find any innocents on board the USS Ulterior Agenda. Perhaps Minkowski maybe innocent but we really don't know his full back story. The Freightastic Four are not innocent either. So who's left? I get why Ben will go to any length to keep the island from being exploited. You need someone like him on the planning board to keep a Wal-Mart from coming into your backyard.
What I don't get is, if Ben just wants to be left alone with his people, then why make excursions to the mainland of several different countries and have cash on hand?
What criteria does Ben go by in determining who is innocent, because if he asked Michael for a list that means he doesn't know who is on board? So at that point why bother? Ben playing games again to manipulate HIS interests.

First off, why are we simply accepting Ben's claims that that is in fact their mission?? We know that at least some of the 815 survivors got off the island and didn't get killed.

My opinion is that their mission is to capture Ben, kill Ben's people and anyone who stands in their way, and that if there are 815 survivors to prevent them from ever leaving the island again (obviously some sort of deal was brokered later to get the 6 off) but not necessarily killing them unless they have to.

Miles wasn't the least bit surprised when Ben said about how his mission was to kill everyone else on the island.

Miles has shown that he's looking out for Miles. He could care less about the Widmore-Ben war. He didn't look surprised because Locke had already accused him of it and he didn't argue with it because he's quite happy to let Locke go right on believing that.


As for the "innocents", obviously nothing Ben says can be trusted and obviously he has no problems killing innocent people. While Ben is a liar he is not a pathological liar, and thus it is possible that he's telling the truth (he's clearly WILLING to kill innocents, but that doesn't mean he WANTS to). That said, I don't think he is. I think that by saying that to Michael he accomplishes two things. First, he gets Michael to see him further as a "good guy", and further manipulates him. More importantly, while he could care less about "innocents", there are people on the freighter crew that he certainly doesn't want dead. Miles, Farraday, and to a lesser (based on what we've seen) extent Charlotte all possess skills that could be of tremendous use to Ben. Frank can get him to/from the island now that the sub is Locked.

This explains why Minkowski died--based on what we've seen he seems like he would be an "innocent", but he's a communications guy and that can't really help Ben, so he isn't spared.

The Island is bringing over the people it wants from the boat crew, and those remaining on the boat will all eventually die (obviously Sayid escapes this somehow). FWIW, this doesn't really fit perfectly with my theory that Keamy was the one shooting at Alex/Rousseau/Karl--maybe Keamy was brought there specifically to kill Karl and Rousseau, and now he will be killed himself, or maybe the island simply has influence but not 100% control over who comes and goes (fate vs. free will). As for Naomi, the island needed her in order to get the other 4, and now that they are there she died.

FWIW, when I say "the Island" here I'm meaning Ben/the Island/Jacob/whatever person or force is controlling what's going on.

I think it's the random dude on the background.