http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/displayimage.php?album=20&pos=209
Hydralazine
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682246.html

Could he have had heart surgery?

ask your doctor about the safe use of alcohol while you are taking hydralazine. Alcohol can make the side effects from hydralazine worse.

Hydralazine is also used after heart valve replacement and in the treatment of congestive heart failure. Talk to your doctor about the possible risks of using this drug for your condition.

Well, there was alot of pills in his hotel room so he must have had some sort of condition.

Mixed with booze, never a good combination. It looks like he might run into some problems if he missed this medication.

he truly is a prime candidate for anti depressants too

Sam
I posted it on the other --thread you have about Christian's meds.
Those hydralazine pills look to be more of a sample med a doc gets from a drug rep.
The other bottles --I think there were 5 -- 3 had no labels which is illegal for a pharmacy to hand out .
(unless he pulled them off himself & I think it would be hard to get on a plane if they weren't labeled) and the other 2 had labels from 2 diffrent pharmacies. Christian seems to be self medicating with more than alcohol.

Mixing meds (depending on what he was taking) and then washing them all down with alcohol.
(snort) It's a wonder he lasted as long as he did. Especially being the drinker he was -- his liver must have been real PRETTY at autopsy.

his liver would have its own DNR card ;)

Car
:jump:
Good one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i was wondering with how touchy a lot of people are with Terry and all....so thanks for taking it as it was intended :laugh:

There were many more bottles of meds around the room. These were the ones we could kind of read.

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/SamG1/?action=view&current=lostep050609.jpg

You can see the amber bottles around the room.

I never ran across the mention of the meds in the transcripts either but they do mention the 2 bottles of booze in the drawer.

i don't recall seeing anything in the transcripts either on this topic

The other bottles --I think there were 5 -- 3 had no labels which is illegal for a pharmacy to hand out .
(unless he pulled them off himself & I think it would be hard to get on a plane if they weren't labeled)

This is correct. Airport security is supposed to only allow medication that has the passenger's name on the bottle. If it's a sample, with no pharmacy tag, then the person is supposed to show a perscription form in their name for that medication.

That being said, for the most part I don't think they're really doing this. I travel with a couple of different allergy meds in my carry on, and I've never seen them look at the labels. So, it is possible that he could have gotten them onto his flight. Even more possible if the meds were in his checked luggage.

This is correct.* Airport security is supposed to only allow medication that has the passenger's name on the bottle.* If it's a sample, with no pharmacy tag, then the person is supposed to show a perscription form in their name for that medication.

That being said, for the most part I don't think they're really doing this.* I travel with a couple of different allergy meds in my carry on, and I've never seen them look at the labels.* So, it is possible that he could have gotten them onto his flight.* Even more* possible if the meds were in his checked luggage.

Or he got the meds in Australia. Christian seems to have been there for a little while.

Interesting. The drug is for high blood pressure. It decreases pressure in certain parts of the cardiovascular system, but since the system is always trying to restore homeostasis, this drug increases stroke volume in the heart. In someone who has a tendency towards coronary disease, it can potentially cause a heart attack. The risk is increased if the drug is combined with alcohol.

This certainly makes Jack's father's sudden death more believable.

Templeton

Interesting.* The drug is for high blood pressure.* It decreases pressure in certain parts of the cardiovascular system, but since the system is always trying to restore homeostasis, this drug increases stroke volume in the heart.* In someone who has a tendency towards coronary disease, it can potentially cause a heart attack. The risk is increased if the drug is combined with alcohol.

This certainly makes Jack's father's sudden death more believable.

Templeton

Hi Tepleton,

Yes, it makes his death easy to see. If he hadn't been back to his room for a few days and it looks like he didn't take anything with him, not taking a medication you were supposed to take 4 times a day might also bring on a massive coronary atttack.

I do know the little white pill in the rectangle foil package on the left, i think there is two of these in this pic....that is Vioxx, my husband has those and hasn't thrown them away since the recall yet.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has fellow dr. connections to get them...I also wonder if he had another medical condition (other than his drinking) ...one that he hid from both his wife and Jack. (Templeton's comment about the medication got me thinking)....he could have left the US for Australia to escape not only his loss of his medical license, but escape any other health problems (other than drinking).


It is used for blood pressure but us used after somekind of heart surgery?
Hydralazine is also used after heart valve replacement and in the treatment of congestive heart failure. Talk to your doctor about the possible risks of using this drug for your condition

Christian was not a sloppy drunk and he wasn't stupid. Which leads me to again say it was a set up

Christian was not a sloppy drunk and he wasn't stupid. Which leads me to again say it was a set up

We don't know that Christian wasn't a sloppy drunk. We didn't get to see that side of him, if there is one, because he had been cut off when Sawyer first encountered him. He was being engaging so someone would buy him a drink.

Later on in the police station it sounds like Saywer may have run into the other side of Christian Shepherd. If he is the person that Sawyer had his run in with. "I gave him back the bottle."

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-47-510.html
There's something wrong here.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-255-631.html

I didn't think that ME's groomed dead bodies. I thought that was saved for funeral homes.

Did Christian go somewhere else and get cleaned up before he died?

Well, maybe he knew exactly what would happen to him if he mixed the heart drugs and alcohol, and he wanted that to happen.... A prolonged suicide of sorts.

The lack of facial hair is VERY interesting... Good catch.

And finally.... Here's another piece to add to the mystery. Why would someone go all the way down to Australia just to drink himself to death? It seems to me that Christian Sheppard might have been in Australia for other purposes; however, I have no idea about what those purposes were. Any suggestions?

It may cause numbness in hands and feet.* This might partially explain the botched surgery. If Jack's daddy was feeling numbness in his hands, being impaired by alch. also it's a wonder he could even pick up a scalpel.

The pictures you had on the other thread showed large quantities of the pills in bottles. Usually you won't get huge amounts of a daily med ( depending on how doc perscribes) unless you are telling the pharmacy you are going on vacation and won't be able to get it any other way. I know ;as a pharmacy tech; I never filled a script over a months supply.

What gets me when Jack was in the room he didn't go over and pick up the pill vials and act surprised seeing that many pills strewn about. I know if I saw that many pills and my father suddenly dropped dead I would be reading them to see what was wrong with Daddy or what Daddy was medicating* with. Doesn't Jack ask the ME what killed him? Or am I confusing my shows? ???

Sometimes I wonder if Christian didn't fake his own death so he could start his life over. :-\

It may cause numbness in hands and feet.* This might partially explain the botched surgery. If Jack's daddy was feeling numbness in his hands, being impaired by alch. also it's a wonder he could even pick up a scalpel.

The pictures you had on the other thread showed large quantities of the pills in bottles. Usually you won't get huge amounts of a daily med ( depending on how doc perscribes) unless you are telling the pharmacy you are going on vacation and won't be able to get it any other way. I know* ;as a pharmacy tech; I never filled a script over a months supply.

What gets me when Jack was in the room he didn't go over and pick up the pill vials and act surprised seeing that many pills strewn about. I know if I saw that many pills and my father suddenly dropped dead I would be reading them to see what was wrong with Daddy or what Daddy was medicating* with. Doesn't Jack ask the ME what killed him? Or am I confusing my shows?* ???

Sometimes I wonder if Christian didn't fake his own death so he could start his life over. :-\


The ME told Jack what he thought his father of. We don't know much about Christian Shepherd, Jack might not be surprised by all the pills because his father may have already been taking them for a condition Jack knew he had.


ME: The police found him in an alley in Queens Cross. Now, a tox screen showed a blood alcohol content, which for a man of his size, probably brought on myocardial infarction - a sizable, and fatal heat-attack.

You'd think a tox screen would show if he was taking too many drugs. Not being in his room for 3 days leads me to believe that he didn't take his meds for 3 days. That could be very harmful too.
:jump1: :jump1: :jump1:* 1001 posts. Now all I have to do is post 999 to get cool stars and move up a class.

The pictures you had on the other thread showed large quantities of the pills in bottles. Usually you won't get huge amounts of a daily med ( depending on how doc perscribes) unless you are telling the pharmacy you are going on vacation and won't be able to get it any other way. I know ;as a pharmacy tech; I never filled a script over a months supply.


On our health plan, we order a 90 day supply from a mail order pharmacy, including Schedule II controlled substances, so it's not impossible and boy does it save a LOT of money! :smiling:

ok, so daddy do right had been gone for how long?
either he brought the meds and quit taking them .......or
he took too many and the ME's missed something probably not i likeSG believe he wasn't taking them so he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. sad

:jump1: :jump1: :jump1:* 1001 posts. Now all I have to do is post 999 to get cool stars and move up a class.



March 2005 - 1001 posts and June 2005 Posts: 2386 = 1385 posts Way to go Sam Grant ;D

http://Re: Figurative and literal mirror images in the show....

Some discussion of a bottle marked "placebo" in Christian's room....if anyone has a screencap of that...plz post...

http://Re: Figurative and literal mirror images in the show....

Some discussion of a bottle marked "placebo" in Christian's room....if anyone has a screencap of that...plz post...


The only place you can see it is the HDTV site. None of the other places with screen caps will blow up big enough to read it. It actually says placebo (and another word) The HDTV site is listed in the LOST Library linked at the bottom of my post.

I don't know anything about alcohol, but it looks to me like one of the alcohol labels is jack daniels.
Just some speculation for all y'all missing lost! :laugh:

I thought the 2 bottles in the drawer were Johnny Walker Red and Old Bushmills.* Since I've been known to partake of both Scotch and Irish Whiskies, the bottles looked familiar. BTW, American whiskey might well be more expensive in Australia than regular scotch or irish whiskey.

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: And right now ... he thinks that I hate him. He thinks I
feel betrayed by him. But what I really feel ... is gratitude and pride because
of what he did to me. What he did for me. It took more courage than I have.
Hmm. There's a pay phone over here. I could pick it up, and I could call my
son. I could tell him about all of this. I could tell him that I love him.
One simple phone call, and I could fix everything.

I wonder if there is more to the THIS than just telling Jack how he feels. Doesn't sound like Christian likes Australia that much so why is her there?

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD:Christian: One simple phone call, and I could fix everything.

I wonder if there is more to the THIS than just telling Jack how he feels. Doesn't sound like Christian likes Australia that much so why is her there?Self-castigation. Also, if someone does go chasing after him, he'd be sure that they were really committed to helping him since they had to go such a long way.

Self-castigation. Also, if someone does go chasing after him, he'd be sure that they were really committed to helping him since they had to go such a long way.
Christian's in Australia. We are not told why. We don't know if Jack knows why but Christian's room is littered with pill bottles. Could the THIS have something to do with his health? If he told Jack about THIS (health problem) Jack would probably forgive him but those aren't the terms Christian is looking for. (?)

Well, he was facing an enforced mid life career change. Going to another English speaking country might have opportunity for him (too simple)
There was some talk that one of the Rx's was filled at a millitary base that might be who his connection is

What if Christian was covering a medical problem by drinking? One of the symptoms is his hands shake, many neuro disorders include that. If it was a progressive disorder Christian would have to face the truth sooner or later and admit it to his colleagues. This could be why he is in Australia, to seek treatment or find out for sure it's only going to get worse. Plus he had a weak heart on top of that.

Or someone killed him. Looks like an accident. But we have a few shady, powerful men in the story that haven't been involved enough yet. There will be some connecting thread.

2 other smokers have appeared that could have been in Christian's room. The Marshal (What Kate Did) and Locke. Why? Christian's death still seems open.

What has Christian Shepherd been taking? Treks through 'the island' to locate 'fresh' water for Jack et al. :rolleyes:

Christian is starting to look like not such a bad guys anymore. It seems Jack is looking for people to be perfect and they just aren't.

I had posted this way........back but if Christian started drinking heavily to cover an illness or to deaden the pain of something that is wrong, he becomes a more sympathetic character.

Christian is starting to look like not such a bad guys anymore. It seems Jack is looking for people to be perfect and they just aren't.

I had posted this way........back but if Christian started drinking heavily to cover an illness or to deaden the pain of something that is wrong, he becomes a more sympathetic character.
If one were to accept that everything Christian did in Oz was one set up or another where is there any proof of Christian alcoholism. Its all Jacks inuendos. (POT calling the kettle out) He could have been shaking from a disease (operating under that condition still very wrong) Like he said you were here Jack but they called me

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: And right now ... he thinks that I hate him. He thinks I
feel betrayed by him. But what I really feel ... is gratitude and pride because
of what he did to me. What he did for me. It took more courage than I have.
Hmm. There's a pay phone over here. I could pick it up, and I could call my
son. I could tell him about all of this. I could tell him that I love him.
One simple phone call, and I could fix everything.

I wonder if there is more to the THIS than just telling Jack how he feels.

Heh. That's the way I feel about "your story" in the Marshal's line to Kate on the plane, approximately, "Maybe they'll believe your story. I know I sure do."

2 other smokers have appeared that could have been in Christian's room. The Marshal (What Kate Did) and Locke. Why? Christian's death still seems open.
Although it was a deleted scene from the pilot episode, Charlie and Sawyer having a smoke together.

When did Locke smoke?

When did Locke smoke?

Orientation. Helen tells him he'll get cancer.

[Locke outside trying to light a cigarette but can't. A woman from the meeting approaches.]

HELEN: Probably a good idea. You know if you get kidney cancer you've only got one.

When I enlarged the scene with the pill bottles in White Rabbit, I was able to see one of the presciption labels more clearly. It looks like one of the bottles contains "tablets of ....Cr-----. The drug may be Cretine, which is one of the many names for Creatine. Creatine is used to build muscle mass. Body builders and athletes use it. It is also used for Myocardial (heart) conditions.

I can also see that the name of the prescibing doctor is "Dr. C". This might be Dr. Curtis (who works at the Santa Rosa Mental Institute), Dr. Candle (from the Dharma video) or some other Dr. C. Although it's a stretch, it's possible that Christian received treatment from Dr. Curtis, for alcohol abuse, at the Santa Rosa Institution. He may have also treated him for a heart condition.

So we see that Christian may have been taking at least 2 medications for a heart condition. He also smoked and was probably an alcoholic. A heart attack in the making.

Oh, and since Creatine is used to build muscle mass, it's possible that Desmond was injecting this into himself. He was obviously into physical fitness. Being confined to the hatch limited his ability to maintain his fitness and muscle mass.

When I enlarged the scene with the pill bottles in White Rabbit, I was able to see one of the presciption labels more clearly. It looks like one of the bottles contains "tablets of ....Cr-----. The drug may be Cretine, which is one of the many names for Creatine. Creatine is used to build muscle mass. Body builders and athletes use it. It is also used for Myocardial (heart) conditions.

I can also see that the name of the prescibing doctor is "Dr. C". This might be Dr. Curtis (who works at the Santa Rosa Mental Institute), Dr. Candle (from the Dharma video) or some other Dr. C. Although it's a stretch, it's possible that Christian received treatment from Dr. Curtis, for alcohol abuse, at the Santa Rosa Institution. He may have also treated him for a heart condition.

So we see that Christian may have been taking at least 2 medications for a heart condition. He also smoked and was probably an alcoholic. A heart attack in the making.

Oh, and since Creatine is used to build muscle mass, it's possible that Desmond was injecting this into himself. He was obviously into physical fitness. Being confined to the hatch limited his ability to maintain his fitness and muscle mass.Christian is taking more than a few medications besides the bottle that says plecebo on it

http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=209
Hydralazine
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682246.html

Could he have had heart surgery?

There were many more bottles of meds around the room. These were the ones we could kind of read.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=328

You can see the amber bottles around the room.

I never ran across the mention of the meds in the transcripts either but they do mention the 2 bottles of booze in the drawer.I like this screen cap because the ash tray is right up front with the red cigarette lighter. We have never seen Christian smoke. You can also see bottles around the room.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-47-328.html

The other thing I found out that was interesting, was that when we saw Christian in the bar with with Sawyer he needed a shave and when we see Christian in the coroner's he is clean shaven. The coroner's doesn't do that.

WR

Hotel Manager: The maid says he hasn't used the bed in the past 3 days.
Jack: Did he rent a car from the concierge.
Hotel Manager: No sir. Quite honestly, Mr. Shepard, I don't think your father rented a car at all.
Jack: Yeah, why's that?
Hotel Manager: There was an incident a few nights ago here at the hotel bar. I had to get security to escort your father to his room.

Exodus Part 1

Calderwood: You remember me? 3 nights ago? You were hauled in here thrashing and fighting. As you were being escorted by you kicked my desk. And you broke my mug.
Sawyer: Nice kids.
Calderwood: Sadly for you, breaking my mug was not the most significant mistake you made that evening.
Sawyer: C'mon, Doctor, I got into a bar fight. Isn't that a badge of honor in this country?
Calderwood: Do you know who you head-butted in that bar? You head-butted the Honorable Warren Truss, Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries, and Forestry. One of the most important...
Sawyer: He head-butted me.
Calderwood We have witnesses he did no such thing.
Sawyer: Of course.
Calderwood: You think this is funny, James? James Ford, assault, wire fraud, identity theft, bank fraud, telemarketing fraud...
Sawyer This going some place?
Calderwood: You're a blight, a stain, a scavenger. You're a conman who prays on the weak and the needy. Tell me something, James, how do you live with yourself?
Sawyer: I do just fine.
Calderwood: Do you? You're not even worth what it would cost us to incarcerate you... which is why you're being deported. Your plane leaves this afternoon. And, James, you're banned from ever setting foot in Australia again.
Sawyer: Don't you worry, I ain't ever coming back here.
Calderwood: Best not, mate


After all this time, I think I have evidence that Sawyer met up with Christian one more time and he was the one that smoked in Christian's room. A-L left for LA, Sawyer was arrested and Christian was found at Kings Cross.

The other thing I found out that was interesting, was that when we saw Christian in the bar with with Sawyer he needed a shave and when we see Christian in the coroner's he is clean shaven. The coroner's doesn't do that.That's true. It would be the funeral home that does that, I'd say. I know that some people will think that it's wacky, but what about the idea that we're seeing two different versions of the same timeline?

Calderwood: You're a blight, a stain, a scavenger. You're a conman who prays on the weak and the needy. Tell me something, James, how do you live with yourself?
Sawyer: I do just fine.
Calderwood: Do you? You're not even worth what it would cost us to incarcerate you... which is why you're being deported. Your plane leaves this afternoon. And, James, you're banned from ever setting foot in Australia again.I just got caught by how intense these comments were from Calderwood. Wow! "You're a blight, a stain, a scavenger...a conman that prays on the needy"...how much more despicable can you get than that? Calderwood definitely made his point. He verbally pushed Sawyer into the ground. Did he have a reason to do that other than he read Sawyer's legal files and was disgusted? It almost seemed like he was trying to convince Sawyer that that's what Sawyer was - not that Sawyer is an angel...he was almost giving Sawyer a reason to believe that he should be on the plane...

That's true. It would be the funeral home that does that, I'd say. I know that some people will think that it's wacky, but what about the idea that we're seeing two different versions of the same timeline?

I just got caught by how intense these comments were from Calderwood. Wow! "You're a blight, a stain, a scavenger...a conman that prays on the needy"...how much more despicable can you get than that? Calderwood definitely made his point. He verbally pushed Sawyer into the ground. Did he have a reason to do that other than he read Sawyer's legal files and was disgusted? It almost seemed like he was trying to convince Sawyer that that's what Sawyer was - not that Sawyer is an angel...he was almost giving Sawyer a reason to believe that he should be on the plane...

He was justifying the act of requiring Sawyer to be on that specific flight. I don't know how often Australia will deport instead of incarcerate, but it does seem kinda odd.

But there does seem to be an awfully large number of people who've had their tickets for that flight supplied to them by someone they don't know. Almost as if someone wanted them all on that flight...

It's funny, I had completely forgotten about the shaving and I was the one who posted it.

Either there was a continunity error or Christian went somewhere and shaved. Another thing to consider, hair continues to grow and your nails after you die.

He was justifying the act of requiring Sawyer to be on that specific flight. I don't know how often Australia will deport instead of incarcerate, but it does seem kinda odd.

But there does seem to be an awfully large number of people who've had their tickets for that flight supplied to them by someone they don't know. Almost as if someone wanted them all on that flight...That's true. What Calderwood was doing was a little bit unconventional, as you've suggested. I wonder who above his paygrade authorized it?

It's funny, I had completely forgotten about the shaving and I was the one who posted it.

Either there was a continunity error or Christian went somewhere and shaved. Another thing to consider, hair continues to grow and your nails after you die.I was going to say continuity error, but how many times can we say that for strange stuff that occurs in LOST? :)

Also - that's true about stuff growing after you die. I suppose that it's possible, more than possible, that he could have gone from clean-shaven to scruff, but to go the opposite...:confused:

Just an urban legend - http://www.snopes.com/science/nailgrow.asp

It just looks like hair and nails grow after you die. Which of course, makes your point the same. Why did he look cleanshaven?

Interesting...Thanks I will remember that. Still Christian was clean shaven, he cleaned up somewhere.

This mixing of clean-shaven and scruffy Christian and what it means is like trying to figure out a difficult math word problem! If the timeline required Christian to be scruffy and John Terry had accidentally shaved before they filmed the scenes, couldn't the make-up department put some fake scruff-N-stubble on him? That makes me think that the difference was intentional. Why? It could be as simple as someone shaved him after he died, but he never made it to the funeral home, so...who and why? Another possibility is that a course corrector got involved and whatever they did and changed, well, it affected Christian's facial hair...

WR

Hotel Manager: The maid says he hasn't used the bed in the past 3 days.
Jack: Did he rent a car from the concierge.
Hotel Manager: No sir. Quite honestly, Mr. Shepard, I don't think your father rented a car at all.
Jack: Yeah, why's that?
Hotel Manager: There was an incident a few nights ago here at the hotel bar. I had to get security to escort your father to his room.

Exodus Part 1

Calderwood: You remember me? 3 nights ago? You were hauled in here thrashing and fighting. As you were being escorted by you kicked my desk. And you broke my mug.
Sawyer: Nice kids.
Calderwood: Sadly for you, breaking my mug was not the most significant mistake you made that evening.
Sawyer: C'mon, Doctor, I got into a bar fight. Isn't that a badge of honor in this country?
Calderwood: Do you know who you head-butted in that bar? You head-butted the Honorable Warren Truss, Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries, and Forestry. One of the most important...
Sawyer: He head-butted me.
Calderwood We have witnesses he did no such thing.
Sawyer: Of course.
Calderwood: You think this is funny, James? James Ford, assault, wire fraud, identity theft, bank fraud, telemarketing fraud...
Sawyer This going some place?
Calderwood: You're a blight, a stain, a scavenger. You're a conman who prays on the weak and the needy. Tell me something, James, how do you live with yourself?
Sawyer: I do just fine.
Calderwood: Do you? You're not even worth what it would cost us to incarcerate you... which is why you're being deported. Your plane leaves this afternoon. And, James, you're banned from ever setting foot in Australia again.
Sawyer: Don't you worry, I ain't ever coming back here.
Calderwood: Best not, mate

After all this time, I think I have evidence that Sawyer met up with Christian one more time and he was the one that smoked in Christian's room. A-L left for LA, Sawyer was arrested and Christian was found at Kings Cross.

This is a nice find, Sam. I've been convinced for a long time that the last 2-3 days before everyone gets on Flight 815 will be very important, and that we still have a number of flashbacks to go to flesh it all out -- especially with regard to Jack, James, John, Kate and Christian. But I think that this connection you've noted points to a pretty intense confrontation of some sort 3 days out from departure.

Is this timeline right?:

Christian and Ana-Lucia have a drinking binge that lasts for 4 days
Ana-Lucia drives Christian to his confrontation with Claire's mother
Ana-Lucia says she's leaving Christian, while in car outside bar
Christian opens door of car, hits Sawyer who's on his way to see Duckett
Sawyer goes to visit Duckett for the first time
Sawyer returns to bar, talks to Christian
Sawyer goes back to shrimp truck, kills Duckett
[Not Yet Filled In]
At some point, Christian is involved in an incident at hotel bar, escorted to his room
[Not Yet Filled In]
Christian found dead at Queens Cross
Jack visits hotel room
Jack identifies body with medical examiner

If this is right so far, then maybe Sawyer returned to that bar that night, and he and Christian go back to Christian's hotel to drink there, and they get drunk and cause a disturbance. Sawyer punches out the Minister of Agriculture and gets arrested, but Christian doesn't and is simply escorted back to his room. Now, Sawyer could have gone up with Christian to Christian's room at some point before the incident, or....

Christian could have then bailed Sawyer out of jail. They return to Christian's hotel -- but then what? Sometime later Christian is dead, having never returned to his room. It could be three days later, or it could be more immediate, since he might have been dead for a day or more when Jack was told he had been gone for 3 days.

The key to me seems to be the question of whether Christian is manipulating events or by this point is simply another piece of flotsam in the river of fate. If he's manipulating events still, then my guess is that he sets Sawyer in motion for another "task" that involves another Lostie in some fashion. If he's not in control, then what happens probably revolves around Christian and Sawyer's own interaction. (For instance, what if Christian -- depressed and perhaps sick -- asks Sawyer to kill him, a la Fletch? Then Sawyer will have been responsible for killing both Jack and Locke's fathers, and we know the writers love those parallels).

The only argument against Sawyer being in Christian's room, to my mind, is that Sawyer's conversation with Jack on-island where he reveals he met Jack's father seems more about someone with whom he had only a passing acquaintance...

Kind of a non sequitur, but I always thought this looked like a bearded John Terry in the boarding area, to the left of Locke (from one of the Exodus episodes):
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/lucky4me8/christianpreboard.jpg
My eyes have been known to be a bit, uh, hypervigilant, however.

The key to me seems to be the question of whether Christian is manipulating events or by this point is simply another piece of flotsam in the river of fate. If he's manipulating events still, then my guess is that he sets Sawyer in motion for another "task" that involves another Lostie in some fashion. If he's not in control, then what happens probably revolves around Christian and Sawyer's own interaction. (For instance, what if Christian -- depressed and perhaps sick -- asks Sawyer to kill him, a la Fletch? Then Sawyer will have been responsible for killing both Jack and Locke's fathers, and we know the writers love those parallels).Exactly, Tramp, what I've been wondering for a long time! How "connected" is Christian? How much of a real shepherd is he? Did he shepherd the Losties to the Island - some of them or all of them?

By the way, I love your Christian-related timeline. The only way that I can connect Kate to Christian right now is through Cassidy and Sawyer. It's the Six Degrees of Christian Shepherd Game...

Now, what about Locke and Christian? Now, if the fathers all were connected...if we knew that for sure...it would be easy to connect everyone...

Kind of a non sequitur, but I always thought this looked like a bearded John Terry in the boarding area, to the left of Locke (from one of the Exodus episodes):
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/lucky4me8/christianpreboard.jpg
My eyes have been known to be a bit, uh, hypervigilant, however.That guy seems a little too heavy in the face to be Christian in a disguise, but what do I know? I think that would be awesome, lucky!

And, TOQ looks so much heavier in that picture! I remember him saying that he LOST 20 pounds since being on LOST...

OK, I went back and fixed my links, so they are correct in the original post. I can't fix them in the ones quoted.

As the series progresses, Christian seems more and more connected, doesn't he? He's met Sawyer, he's Claire's father, he's Jack's father, he's involved with Ana Lucia... just how far back does this guy go?

I know that some people will think that it's wacky, but what about the idea that we're seeing two different versions of the same timeline?

People do think it's wacky, Juniebun, but I think it's an interpretation worth exploring. At least two loops of one line - I'm glad I'm not the only one who's willing to consider the possibility!

If we are looking at two different versions of the same timeline, two loops, it might help our thinking to identify what's happening in each loop. Rather than making a single "timeline", how about "two loops"? In one loop, Christian *is* a washout, but experiences some sort of "rebirth" (on the Island?) and is given a second chance to try and set things right. In the second loop, he has to "play" a washout (the rules of determinism require all depicted actions to happen again) and tries to tweak key background variables which only become clear as the series comes to a close.

I keep coming back to that line of Jack's in ATBCHDI, when he and Kate are tracking Ethan:

Jack: I'm not letting him do this.
Kate: Not letting him?
Jack: Not again.

What is Jack talking about, especially with his comment, "Not again"? In the "no loops" model, it doesn't make sense if he's talking about his father, because he never let his father get away with "getting off the hook" in the first place. If he's talking about Ethan, it also doesn't make sense because Claire has only just been kidnapped.

The very next scene after Jack's comment is where he turns in his father. What if, in a prior loop, he actually did let his father "get away with it"? I don't think it's insignificant that Jack's reversal in this scene happens over a highly polished and reflective table, not with how prominently mirrors and other reflective surfaces play out as symbolic markers of "reversals" or "deception" - the latter of which depends on "playing the part" of a "different identity". This interpretation makes Jack's "not again" comment have some "emotional continuity", possibly?

Sawyer also makes a poignant comment in ATBCHDI: "Well, well, well. I don't know if you Islam's got a concept of Karma, but I get the sense this Island just served you up a heaping platter of cosmic payback."


This mixing of clean-shaven and scruffy Christian and what it means is like trying to figure out a difficult math word problem!

I agree that so much of Lost comes across as a giant "math word problem!" Or a humongous "logic gate" puzzle, not unlike a computer game or something.

I don't know, I'm so reluctant to pay attention to hair and shaving as clues in the whole "continuity game." My reason is Claire's line in White Rabbit that there are no hairbrushes to be found. I interpret it as acknowledgment from the production team to "give them a pass" on hair-related issues as far as continuity goes. The hair of the talent is too important to mess with for the sake of continuity!

That said, I think we have plenty to go on to entertain (though certainly not prove) the idea that Christian is not dead, or that he was only "mostly dead" and possibly resurrected. From the wiki: "Zoroastrians believe that on the fourth day after death, the human soul leaves the body and the body remains as an empty shell." I picked this up after exploring WesB's "Three Kings" thread coupled with my recent study of Nietzsche (in Deus Ex Machina, Boone says Locke has a habit of "quoting Nietzsche".)

If the Island can resurrect (Mikhail, anyone?) and Christian came there within three days of the coroner, he might have gotten a "second chance", albeit subject to certain limitations.

Alternatively (or in the second loop) the coroner might have been in on some kind of a con, to make sure that Jack (still) believes his father is dead.

Now, what about Locke and Christian? Now, if the fathers all were connected...if we knew that for sure...it would be easy to connect everyone...

Well, if Cooper is in on it, we've got a whole new ball of wax, don't we? What if Cooper gets the same sort of deal that I'm speculating for Christian? Unlike Sawyer, Cooper really knows the art of con. What if, in a second loop of the same timeline, Cooper and Locke are faking the cons that we've seen? Perhaps in a "long-con" effort to undermine Ben?

That would really put a wholly new twist on Cooper's line from Deus Ex Machina, "I guess that makes me God, huh?" Which, if you'll notice, is delivered from a new camera angle that brings a big mirror on the wall into the shot.

I don't know, I'm so reluctant to pay attention to hair and shaving as clues in the whole "continuity game." My reason is Claire's line in White Rabbit that there are no hairbrushes to be found. I interpret it as acknowledgment from the production team to "give them a pass" on hair-related issues as far as continuity goes. The hair of the talent is too important to mess with for the sake of continuity!

In one podcast TPTB have said as much about some of the hair issues. They specifically mentioned Kate and her lack of armpit hair that you would expect of someone stranded on an island. They don't really expect their actors to live un-hygenically for the sake of a consitent body hair growth.

That being said, how come Jack's hair seems to be the same length the entire time (or at least not indicative of 90 days worth of growth) while we have seen Sawyer getting a haircut.

This is kind of interesting - I posted it in the promo thread in the spoiler section but thought it might be relevant here too:
in the new S4 promo Christian is shown wearing the same tie (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1335-29.html), and possibly the exact same outfit, that he was wearing when he appeared to Jack in White Rabbit (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-47-236.html).