It seemed a little pointless for Daniel to lie to Jack and the other beachers. I mean - once the helicopter didn't arrive like he said the next morning, they would have all been on his case anyway. Just seemed a little silly...maybe he's just not good at thinking on his feet?

I wondered why he lied too. Didn't make any sense at all. Since this is Lost, it may later...

He was covering up for Keamy and his band of butchers.

You don't know the helicopter won't be there in the morning. Time is all relative, remember? Frank may have enough time. As for your other question, we don't have all the info. Daniel clearly knows more about the island than any of the survivors and whenever he tries to answer their questions they just get confused. He's not good at talking to people and I'm sure he doesn't know how to explain to them why the doc is on the boat and dead on the island at the same time. That or maybe Daniel isn't allowed to talk about certain things, this phenomenon being one of them.

I don't know about that....it was purely a lie...he had absolutely no idea where the helicopter was...

He lied because the freighties think their mission is more important thann fifty crash survivors. But the sequences was great where Bernard said, he's lying and explained what he said. The realization on Daniel and Charlotte's faces when they realized they had been conned (wouldn't Sawyer be proud of Jack's plan, looks like the doc's learned a few things from Sawyer) was great, because their faces said, we've underestimated these people. Daniel and Charlotte needed to be taken down a notch they were walking around with a more than subtle superior attitude, they'll think twice now.

Because Dan wasn't allowed to tell the truth - either because of personal reasons, or because telling the truth would harm the mission he's on. Dan is here for a specific purpose, and whatever that is, it is important enough to overcome his obvious guilt that his can't save all these stranded people.

Because Dan wasn't allowed to tell the truth - either because of personal reasons, or because telling the truth would harm the mission he's on. Dan is here for a specific purpose, and whatever that is, it is important enough to overcome his obvious guilt that his can't save all these stranded people.
I think the science team was lied to, Miles reaction to the carnage unleashed by Keamy and his men and was as scared as anyone else in Otherville. It seems to me like Daniel (and especially) Charlotte believe that the losties are naive and don't understand the stakes of all of this, when its the other way around. The Bernard morse code scene showed that its just the opposite, Daniel and Charlotte are the naive ones, I guessed right when Daniel said he would turn the phone into a telegraph and Jack wanted to speak to Bernard that he knew morse code and would listen in. Did they not think that someone in the camp would know morse code. Law of averages says that on a flight of 300+ people someone is going to know morse code. And the science team has as to fear from Keamy's men as the losties do, pity they don't realize that yet.

I think the science team was lied to, Miles reaction to the carnage unleashed by Keamy and his men and was as scared as anyone else in Otherville. It seems to me like Daniel (and especially) Charlotte believe that the losties are naive and don't understand the stakes of all of this, when its the other way around. The Bernard morse code scene showed that its just the opposite, Daniel and Charlotte are the naive ones, I guessed right when Daniel said he would turn the phone into a telegraph and Jack wanted to speak to Bernard that he knew morse code and would listen in. Did they not think that someone in the camp would know morse code. Law of averages says that on a flight of 300+ people someone is going to know morse code. And the science team has as to fear from Keamy's men as the losties do, pity they don't realize that yet.

I think you're absolutely correct when you say not even the science team knows the real reason why they're on the mission. But the question was why would DAN lie. Dan still thinks he has a cause worthy of protecting.

all those are great thoughts...

so - did Jack know that Bernard knew morse code, or was it just a lucky break?

all those are great thoughts...

so - did Jack know that Bernard knew morse code, or was it just a lucky break?
If you watch the episode again, when Bernard tells Faraday he could use the phone like a telegraph Jack asks to talk to Bernard. Bernard mentioning the telegraph could have alerted Jack that he knew morse code and during the off camera conversation talked to him and set up there little con.

I think I will go watch it again...thanks for that...I didn't even catch it the first time!!
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I guess I'm still confused as to the benefit of lying for Faraday and Charlotte...I know we don't have all the information, but being dishonest or not telling the whole story up until now hasn't worked out well for them at all...so why continue?

I think I will go watch it again...thanks for that...I didn't even catch it the first time!!
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I guess I'm still confused as to the benefit of lying for Faraday and Charlotte...I know we don't have all the information, but being dishonest or not telling the whole story up until now hasn't worked out well for them at all...so why continue?

Im thinking it's to keep jack and the others sedated more or less knowing what they want is to leave. Kind of like the whole illusion of safety is better than oh say a dead guy that just washed up on shore is still alive on the boat hehe. Thats my take on it just to keep em calm.

you're probably right - and I'm sure it will all pan out in the end...my guess is that there's just such a sinister reality in telling the truth, that it's not worth it

kind of like Juliet and the Others have been doing up until now

(i wonder how Juliet feels being on the other side of not knowing!)

It seems like Daniel is still trying to cover up the whole time discrepancy deal. It's as if he doesn't want anyone to understand what it is. But why? Maybe he's not as innocent as he's made out to be.

It seems like Daniel is still trying to cover up the whole time discrepancy deal. It's as if he doesn't want anyone to understand what it is. But why? Maybe he's not as innocent as he's made out to be.

Oh, I'm sure he's not as innocent as he seems, but it's clear he still doesn't quite understand what's going on himself, so maybe it's to cover his insecurity?

I think I will go watch it again...thanks for that...I didn't even catch it the first time!!
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I guess I'm still confused as to the benefit of lying for Faraday and Charlotte...I know we don't have all the information, but being dishonest or not telling the whole story up until now hasn't worked out well for them at all...so why continue?
Because like I said in another post, Charlotte and Daniel have up until the Bernard morse code scene had an air of smug superiority. They believe that they have all the information on the island and the losties are in the dark on the island, when it was revealed that Bernard knew morse code it was the other way around. Go back and watch the episode again and one of the many highlights is the look on their faces when they find out Bernard knew morse code, it's priceless, it's brief but the realization that the losties had been conning them all day is fantastic. Charlotte and Daniel believe that accomgplishing their mission is paramount and probably because they view the losties at best as little children, it's best to leave them out of the complicated business of capturing Ben Linus, which the losties have done twice. But judging from Miles' reaction the science team wasn't expecting to be a part of a genocide or at least Miles wasn't. Here is my question were all of the losties in the morse code scene, or I should say, Kate and Juliet in on the con with Bernard and Jack, because I take Jack as someone who would tell two of his people what was up.

I think he just sucks at thinking on his feet.

all those are great thoughts...

so - did Jack know that Bernard knew morse code, or was it just a lucky break?


Dunno if it's been discussed on-screen, but my guess is that Bernard was in the military. This would also explain his shooting skills. If Steven Seagal movies are to be believed, Navy pilots are the only people that still learn Morse code.

He lied badly.
Why?

Because his character sucks at being sneaky.

At times it also feels like the freighties are a pretty loosely tied group - do you suppose they figured they'd just blow onto the island and be able to easily accomplish their mission?

just seems like they're either terrible at adlib, or they're so confident in their plan, they just kind of buy time and wait for whatever is supposed to happen

At times it also feels like the freighties are a pretty loosely tied group - do you suppose they figured they'd just blow onto the island and be able to easily accomplish their mission?

just seems like they're either terrible at adlib, or they're so confident in their plan, they just kind of buy time and wait for whatever is supposed to happen
I take it from Miles reaction to the carnage at the barracks that he and by extension the members of the science team weren't told the full nature of their mission. And then there is the presence of the losties, which I don't think that the freighties expected. The losties simply by their very presence have served as an obstacle to those plans. Had the losties not been on the island the freighties would have gone to the barracks, taken Ben and killed everyone on the island, while they have inflicted carnage on the losties their plans have yet to go right. It seems like Locke had a point way back when when he said, we were brought here for a reason. Look at what the losties have done more by accident than design, killed the person who was supposed to protect the team and help them accomplish their mission(Naomi), separated the team for what's it been nearly a week, prevented(almost seemingly by accident) the freighties from capturing their target, and cutting the science team on the island off from the freighter, not bad for a rag tag group of plane crash survivors. As for Faraday, I think he was brought in for his scientific knowledge rather than his ability to handle dangerous situations, he's been a bad liar from his introduction. Was their anyone who couldn't tell he was lying during the morse code scene, that was obvious and a great performance from Davies, how hard is it to play a bad liar?

.... As for Faraday, I think he was brought in for his scientific knowledge rather than his ability to handle dangerous situations, he's been a bad liar from his introduction. Was their anyone who couldn't tell he was lying during the morse code scene, that was obvious and a great performance from Davies, how hard is it to play a bad liar?

I think it's pretty hard, and you're right, Davies is a great actor! He played it so nerdy and uncomfortable; Davies has created a near-perfect character for Faraday.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume the freighties didn't know the Losties were on the island. Remember in the ep where we met the main freighties and saw their backstories? Frank was convinced the plane from the news wasn't actually 815. I'm fairly sure they knew survivors were there. (Even if, perhaps, they were caught off-guard by exactly how many there were...which could be the case)

As I said before, is really appears like poor planning on the part of whoever is in charge of the boat because none of them seem to be quite able to handle any situation out of the ordinary very well. (Which I believe Naomi complained to Abaddon about in an earlier ep...the other members of the team not being able to handle the gravity of the situation)
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that being said...I have really enjoyed Davies' performance thusfar

I'm not sure it's safe to assume the freighties didn't know the Losties were on the island. Remember in the ep where we met the main freighties and saw their backstories? Frank was convinced the plane from the news wasn't actually 815. I'm fairly sure they knew survivors were there. (Even if, perhaps, they were caught off-guard by exactly how many there were...which could be the case)

As I said before, is really appears like poor planning on the part of whoever is in charge of the boat because none of them seem to be quite able to handle any situation out of the ordinary very well. (Which I believe Naomi complained to Abaddon about in an earlier ep...the other members of the team not being able to handle the gravity of the situation)
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that being said...I have really enjoyed Davies' performance thusfar
If you look at it seems like this: The losties are two sides of the same coin. The island seems to want the losties there and favors them at the same time it will do everything in its power to stop the freighties. Look at how they defeated the others(and I get the feeling that it was the first time the others had lost a war) And Charlie telling Hurley: They need you and Jack's We have to go back Kate Now look at the freighties, from the moment they arrive nothing goes as planned for them. Naomi, the person who is supposed to keep the team safe is speared by a tree and knifed in the back by Locke, and that act ultimately separated the science team and prevented them from staying together and accomplishing their mission. And there is the "cabin fever" the freighties are experiencing. I know the freighter is outside the island but the losties have experienced some unusual phenomenon but nothing that has driven them to suicide. I think the cabin fever the freighties are experiencing is the island's self defense mechanism. All the island is an entity with mystic properties stuff aside, the four people they chose to go inside just don't seem to know what they're doing.

I'm in a disctinct miority, but I took the freighters response about the doctor just to be a lie to stall until they found out why Dan was asking. After all, he didn't transmit "How come the Doctor just washed ashore here with a slit throat ?" did he ? Just a "nothings wrong, why do you ask" sort of response.

Is there any definite sign the doctor IS actually alive & well on the boat ?

Unki - that's kind of what I was getting at originally - it was a pointless lie...here's the dead doc on the beach and yet the lie is that the doc is actually alive. Pretty big stretch by Faraday...

I just think for Widmore or whoever planned the trip to the island that it was horrible planning, and a rather massive assumption that they'd just be able to galavant onto the island, take Ben and secure the island for themselves. I know they prepared themselves for a fight, but Widmore must have known about the supernatural properties of the island and that the Others could use them to their advantage. I just get the feeling that it's just the shape of things to come...which, I think would make a great episode title!

Daniel lied about the first response regarding the helicopter, and Bernard caught him on it.

The response to the question about the doctor would have been whoever was transmitting from the ship in morse lying, not Daniel. In a lot of the threads, including this one, the response that (and I paraphrase) " the doctor is fine, why ? " is used as ABSOLUTE proof of some time discrepancy, and two doctors existing at once.

However, why couldn't it just be a lie TO Dan from someone on the boat who knows full well the doctor is dead, but wants to see what Dan & the losties know before exposing themselves ?

Because like I said in another post, Charlotte and Daniel have up until the Bernard morse code scene had an air of smug superiority. They believe that they have all the information on the island and the losties are in the dark on the island, when it was revealed that Bernard knew morse code it was the other way around. Go back and watch the episode again and one of the many highlights is the look on their faces when they find out Bernard knew morse code, it's priceless, it's brief but the realization that the losties had been conning them all day is fantastic. Charlotte and Daniel believe that accomgplishing their mission is paramount and probably because they view the losties at best as little children, it's best to leave them out of the complicated business of capturing Ben Linus, which the losties have done twice.

Great insight. I agree that Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles have had these smugness about them, especially Charlotte. They seem to think that they are far more competent than these poor pathetic survivors to deal with the big, bad Benjamin Linus, except for the fact that the Losties have pretty much destroyed Ben's idealic Othersville all on their own and have reaped hell on the Others on craphole island.

Here is my question were all of the losties in the morse code scene, or I should say, Kate and Juliet in on the con with Bernard and Jack, because I take Jack as someone who would tell two of his people what was up.

No, I think it was a plan between just Jack and Bernard. Jack is clearly suspicious once the body washes up, and there are a few scenes were Jack is just eyeing Daniel. Jack is listening to the answers Daniel is providing about the dead Doc, but you can tell that Jack knows something's off. You were right when you mentioned Bernard suggested the transmission to try and contact the Freighter, and then Jack immediately asked to speak with Bernard. I think the best response to your answer was the reactions of the people around Bernard and Daniel when the morse code was sent. Bernard was standing right next to the machine - I'm guessing to catch every blip of the code. Daniel relayed what was "said," and then Bernard looked to Jack, and said he's lying. Jack didn't look even remotely surprised. It was more like a "my suspicions are confirmed." Charlotte's reaction was classic. Juliet did seem to have a wry smile on her face, but I don't think she was in on it, jmo.

It was a great con set up perfectly by Jack and Bernard.

I take it from Miles reaction to the carnage at the barracks that he and by extension the members of the science team weren't told the full nature of their mission. And then there is the presence of the losties, which I don't think that the freighties expected. The losties simply by their very presence have served as an obstacle to those plans. Had the losties not been on the island the freighties would have gone to the barracks, taken Ben and killed everyone on the island, while they have inflicted carnage on the losties their plans have yet to go right. It seems like Locke had a point way back when when he said, we were brought here for a reason. Look at what the losties have done more by accident than design, killed the person who was supposed to protect the team and help them accomplish their mission(Naomi), separated the team for what's it been nearly a week, prevented(almost seemingly by accident) the freighties from capturing their target, and cutting the science team on the island off from the freighter, not bad for a rag tag group of plane crash survivors. As for Faraday, I think he was brought in for his scientific knowledge rather than his ability to handle dangerous situations, he's been a bad liar from his introduction. Was their anyone who couldn't tell he was lying during the morse code scene, that was obvious and a great performance from Davies, how hard is it to play a bad liar?

Hmm... but did we forget that someone - who was it? Patchy? - had also come across Naomi? The Losties might not have been the only thing that messed up their plans. It's very possible that they've aided them in getting as far as they have...

Great insight. I agree that Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles have had these smugness about them, especially Charlotte. They seem to think that they are far more competent than these poor pathetic survivors to deal with the big, bad Benjamin Linus, except for the fact that the Losties have pretty much destroyed Ben's idealic Othersville all on their own and have reaped hell on the Others on craphole island. I agree totally, the advantage the losties have and what helped them against the others was that they were underestimated. And the freighties are doing it again, to their detriment. I loved the expression on Charlotte's face it was mix of shock, fear, weariness, and anger at the losties for fooling her and herself for being so stupid. And when Daniel was first introduced the impression of him was that he was a sweet, socially awkward little nerd instead of a snivelling weasel.


No, I think it was a plan between just Jack and Bernard. Jack is clearly suspicious once the body washes up, and there are a few scenes were Jack is just eyeing Daniel. Jack is listening to the answers Daniel is providing about the dead Doc, but you can tell that Jack knows something's off. You were right when you mentioned Bernard suggested the transmission to try and contact the Freighter, and then Jack immediately asked to speak with Bernard. I think the best response to your answer was the reactions of the people around Bernard and Daniel when the morse code was sent. Bernard was standing right next to the machine - I'm guessing to catch every blip of the code. Daniel relayed what was "said," and then Bernard looked to Jack, and said he's lying. Jack didn't look even remotely surprised. It was more like a "my suspicions are confirmed." Charlotte's reaction was classic. Juliet did seem to have a wry smile on her face, but I don't think she was in on it, jmo.

It was a great con set up perfectly by Jack and Bernard.
I don't know if Juliet knew about it but she did take pleasure in seeing Charlotte and Daniel and Charlotte fooled. This scene was crucial in showing how close the losties are, neither Kate or Juliet was surprised that Bernard knew morse code. And Charlotte and Daniel were blindsided by it. Also I can't stress how good Bernard was in this scene, he was a little menacing and Daniel seemed a little afraid of him. And I think the good doctor learned a few things from Sawyer, I could see Sawyer pulling the same thing.
In addition to sympathizing with Ben, I kind of reversed my feelings on the freightastic four. I used to think Miles was a little sleazebag but I found myself really liking him in this episode. And Daniel and Charlotte came off as really vile. They better come clean because having lost contact with the freighter they're looking less like freighties and more like castaways.

The four main Freighties we have been introduced to are likable in different ways, and they have all done unsavory things too-- but so has every character on the show. However, there is a very clear distinction between the main four (whom Ben would probably have characterized as "innocent") and the bloodthirsty extraction team.

I get the impression that Daniel, Charlotte and Frank are caught up in a situation they don't want to be in. I think the next time we see Frank, he will be feeling remorse for having had to transport a group of mercenaries that he must have known would be up to no good on the Island. As for Miles, he's been deceptive about his motives for being on the Island the entire time. He's completely self-interested, which, although sleazy, is a heck of a lot better than being a cold-blooded murderer.

I get the impression that Daniel, Charlotte and Frank are caught up in a situation they don't want to be in. I think the next time we see Frank, he will be feeling remorse for having had to transport a group of mercenaries that he must have known would be up to no good on the Island. As for Miles, he's been deceptive about his motives for being on the Island the entire time. He's completely self-interested, which, although sleazy, is a heck of a lot better than being a cold-blooded murderer.
I would differ slightly in my assesment of the four freighties. I don't think they came to the island against their will, they were coerced there by Widmore's people and lied to as to the nature of the mission. An anthropoligist and a physicist would want to study the island, and could be convinced if not by money but by being told that the mission was for the betterment of mandkind. Yes, I think judging by Miles reactions that they were lied to and weren't told it would involve a genocide. Miles realized he was in way over his head, yes he was scared but he handled it well. I used to think that Miles was totally self interested but he did show a human side. The morse code scene was also Daniel and Charlotte's wake up that they're in over their heads. They each had shock fear and anger on their faces when Bernard said they're lying. Until then they treated the losties like they were stupid. And to me it wasn't Miles who came off as the sleazebag but Daniel. He originally seemed like a sweet, socially awkward guy but from the moment he said, "you know morse code" with that slight grin on his face he was revealed to be the sleazy snivelling coward. As for Frank I think you're right, I also think that of the four freighties he is the one that will be the calmest under pressure.

We completely agree, I didn't mean they were forced... just that they were uncomfortable with some of the stuff they were having to do on their mission.

So why did Dan lie?

It was a crappy lie, they didn't need Bernard for telling that no helicopter was coming in the morning, that only shows Dan is so not fit for the conspiracy thing.

But let's consider what they told him. They told him the doctor - who just washed up to shore with his cut throat - is fine on the boat. Did he tell that to the losties, that would have meant either that

a. Dan and Charlotte have no idea what's going on, they are cluless and lied to by their own team-mates - which eventually would have caused a pretty severe loss of authority

or

b. they are all out of their heads,

because Jack would never consider any time travelling stories. I'm not sure I do, because as far as I can tell, the only one who time-travelled so far was Desmond (I really don't know what Ben did), and he never did that bodily.

Having that, what other option was Dan left with?

Also, Daniel just heard this news, that only he possibly knows the implication of.
Don't think Charlotte knew morse either? Did she?
So did he lie to Charlotte too!!!
Charlotte and Daniel seem to be protective of each other.
I think the news was such a mindf*ck that he did not know how to deal with it.
Maybe now even fearing for his life (since the freighter is his way out).
Maybe that's part of the reason he lied.
He's not very adept at communicating or lying.

Something very bad is about to happen on the freighter, how
should Daniel say that to the those he was "supposed" to
rescue, he can't even assure his own rescue anymore.

Actually, I'm thinking more and more that the 4 freighties
were not actually supposed to leave with the freighter.
If Widmore wants to reconquer the island, he needed to leave
poeple there that could unlock its mysteries.

One thing is certain, if Ben didn't leave the island, as Sayid hinted,
the 4 freighties and the rest of the left behind gang
either joined the others there or in hiding from them.
2-3 years is long time to hide!!

You know there is one major thing to consider. In 2005 Widmore still doesn't have the island. Which means that the freighter went home defeated, or didn't go home at all...

In my opinion this is all very simple: Daniel was lying to the Oceanic 815 survivors because he was afraid that if they knew the truth about what was in store for them, that he and the rest of the Freighter Four would end up in the same situation that Naomi did - six feet under.

I just went back and watched the scene again - it did seem like a lucky guess when Jack called Bernard aside. Also - in grand scheme of things, I still think it's interesting that Faraday would lie about the whole "doc is still alive on the boat thing", because he had told Jack earlier that time was relative - it would have been fairly easy to simply explain about the whole time discrepancy thing...they've seen enough supernatural things on the island, one more wasn't going to screw them up

I just went back and watched the scene again - it did seem like a lucky guess when Jack called Bernard aside. Also - in grand scheme of things, I still think it's interesting that Faraday would lie about the whole "doc is still alive on the boat thing", because he had told Jack earlier that time was relative - it would have been fairly easy to simply explain about the whole time discrepancy thing...they've seen enough supernatural things on the island, one more wasn't going to screw them up
I still can't undestand why people are confused as to how Jack knew Bernard's morse knowledge, but I'll explain. In the scene where everyone is discussing the phone, it is Bernard who suggests using it as a telegragh, after Faraday walked away with Kate Jack said, "Bernard you got a second." Bernard mentioning the idea of the telegraph e alerted Jack that Bernard knew morse code. They just didn't show the conversation where Jack asked Bernard if he knew morse code and set up the plan to listen in with him.

...
...
And to me it wasn't Miles who came off as the sleazebag but Daniel. He originally seemed like a sweet, socially awkward guy but from the moment he said, "you know morse code" with that slight grin on his face he was revealed to be the sleazy snivelling coward. As for Frank I think you're right, I also think that of the four freighties he is the one that will be the calmest under pressure.

Yeh, it's probably not accurate but I could totally see him going all Edward Norton, Jr. on us from Primal Fear... LOL

I still think it's interesting that Faraday would lie about the whole "doc is still alive on the boat thing", because he had told Jack earlier that time was relative - it would have been fairly easy to simply explain about the whole time discrepancy thing...they've seen enough supernatural things on the island, one more wasn't going to screw them up

Which is why I think that the Freightie on the other end of the phone is who was lying to Dan as well, and the doctor is NOT in two places at the same time.

Analogy time - imagine playing hooky from work or school, and your spouse/parent sees you out in public somewhere. Later they ask "How was the office/class, dear ?", and you say "Fine. Why do you ask?", trying to scope out why the question came up. After all, you don't know they saw you. Well, Dan is the spouse/parent & the freighter crew is the truant in this analogy.

Why couldn't this simpler explanation be possible, instead of the convoluted " 2 doctors- time lag- pointless lie by Dan " theory. Also, IIRC, the Doctor question was the second one Dan asked, afterBernard had called him on the Morse Code translation about the helicopter - making an attempt by Dan to mistranslate unlikelier still. Or do I have it wrong-way-around and the helicopter question was second - I'm sure they were definitely two seperate questions and responses (but haven't re-watched the ep).

Which is why I think that the Freightie on the other end of the phone is who was lying to Dan as well, and the doctor is NOT in two places at the same time.

Analogy time - imagine playing hooky from work or school, and your spouse/parent sees you out in public somewhere. Later they ask "How was the office/class, dear ?", and you say "Fine. Why do you ask?", trying to scope out why the question came up. After all, you don't know they saw you. Well, Dan is the spouse/parent & the freighter crew is the truant in this analogy.

Why couldn't this simpler explanation be possible, instead of the convoluted " 2 doctors- time lag- pointless lie by Dan " theory. Also, IIRC, the Doctor question was the second one Dan asked, afterBernard had called him on the Morse Code translation about the helicopter - making an attempt by Dan to mistranslate unlikelier still. Or do I have it wrong-way-around and the helicopter question was second - I'm sure they were definitely two seperate questions and responses (but haven't re-watched the ep).
I see three possibilities and it could be a combination of all three:
The doctor's death hasn't happened yet because of the time dsplacement.
The people on the boat are lying to Daniel, they've lied to the science team before, remember Minkowksi can't come to the phone right now?
Or(and I think this is very likely) The science team was told to manintain the lie that they were there to rescue the losties and keep all ship to shore communication secret and they were following protocol. I picked up on the fact that Daniel was lying before Bernard called him on it. The science team is really screwed they can't trust their own people, their stuck in a camp hostile to them and they're looking more and more like castaways themselves than people with a way off the island.

i have only seen the episode once but it was my impression that the person on the freighter did not want charlotte and daniel to know how badly things had deteriorated on the freighter ~ their only way away from there. in order for them to continue to keep the losties hopeful and not interfering. (and it seems very likely that the freighter may not be the way off at all.) the killing team has been away from the freighter for several episodes and we don't know if daniel or charlotte know anything about what they are capable of and have been ordered to do. i say one dead doctor and the last i remember seeing him was when he took sayid and des to see the captain. maybe michael got him.

i have only seen the episode once but it was my impression that the person on the freighter did not want charlotte and daniel to know how badly things had deteriorated on the freighter ~ their only way away from there. in order for them to continue to keep the losties hopeful and not interfering. (and it seems very likely that the freighter may not be the way off at all.) the killing team has been away from the freighter for several episodes and we don't know if daniel or charlotte know anything about what they are capable of and have been ordered to do. i say one dead doctor and the last i remember seeing him was when he took sayid and des to see the captain. maybe michael got him.
I agree they could have been lied to, there is a brief scende of Charlotte's face when they are looking at the doctor's body that says, "I'm in way over my head." The interesting thing is the losties by their very presence(even Camp Jack, the majority of whom, except Sun) were welcoming to the freighties has complicated their plans. We got hints the last time they showed the freighter that things were falling apart, the crew was experiencing some weird phenomenon, and I took the captain to mean that Regina and Minkowski weren't the only two who died. Their communication and engines were down so the situation can only get worse. It would be entirely plausible that they would want to keep it from the science team on the island. Which raises the question, who will rescue the rescuers, because the freighties on the boat and the island seem pretty stranded to me.

Which is why I think that the Freightie on the other end of the phone is who was lying to Dan as well, and the doctor is NOT in two places at the same time.

Thank you! I've been saying the same thing since the episode aired. This is nothing more than the Freighter lying to Daniel about the situation on the boat. We know absolutely nothing about what's happening on the boat or even who sent the message. They currently have an all out assault going on the other side of the island and Dan has been proven to have loose lips when it comes to mission security. (The Minkowski "am I on speaker phone" scene?!!!) The last thing they would mention is the killing of the Doc, without feeling out Dan's situation first IMO.

The fact is there was a spoiler about this episode that said that the body would indicate some sort of time discrepancy... I think the originator of the spoiler saw the scene and misinterpreted it and people have just run (away) with it from there.

I think the science team was lied to, Miles reaction to the carnage unleashed by Keamy and his men and was as scared as anyone else in Otherville. It seems to me like Daniel (and especially) Charlotte believe that the losties are naive and don't understand the stakes of all of this, when its the other way around. The Bernard morse code scene showed that its just the opposite, Daniel and Charlotte are the naive ones, I guessed right when Daniel said he would turn the phone into a telegraph and Jack wanted to speak to Bernard that he knew morse code and would listen in. Did they not think that someone in the camp would know morse code. Law of averages says that on a flight of 300+ people someone is going to know morse code. And the science team has as to fear from Keamy's men as the losties do, pity they don't realize that yet.

A great post! And, I mean, it is absolutely clear neither Dan nor Charlotte (oh, how I despise that woman) have a full grasp of the situation merely because they want to capture Ben...And while I would always say that Benjamin is the good one and that it is clear their mission is doomed because they are naive and don't realize that at all, that's not the point. The point with the science team lies within the fact that they were, indeed, shown certain facets of the bigger picture... They haven't been on the Island before (well, maybe they did, but I seriously doubt it, since Dan knew nothing about it 8 years ago, and then Ben would know if they were there previously) , yet they know all (or SOMETHING) about Dharma, the PURPOSE of their work, the locations of the stations...They know about the purge, and they know about polar bears...They know SOMETHING about the crash and potential survivors as well. They even know about Benjamin. But they clearly don't know much about him, just what they were told by Widmore (any one of the two, and yes, we've discussed that on some other threads), which is a very clear evidence that they have, actually, only been shown facets. They apparently have no clue whatsoever of the bigger image (or only a little, teeny tiny bit of a clue, maybe that's why they are willing to sacrifice the survivors, or maybe they have an entirely different reason for it), and they definitely do not know what Benjamin is capable of, Miles included, thank you very much.

So, the bottom line is - the freighties know some of the hardcore science facts about the Island, which leads them to believe they are so superior. They also know this story about Ben that is clearly not true, and which I believe will lead to their demise or assimilation with him in the end. What they don't know is that Losties know much more about life on the Island than they do, and even if they don't know the hard facts, they have Ben, which is more than enough as a pro-not-underestimate-them case.

And then I think that Jack is fairly screwed because he was turned against Ben by lovely Juliet and Charlotte. Of course, Jack never liked Ben (how could he), but his whole problem in Season 4 and him being an anti-hero has a lot to do with him turning completely against Ben, who is, ultimately, the only person who can save them (now, I know, Ben was in the camp where everyone was shot, but that was because Locke made him come, and while I DO agree that they would probably not be very safe around the man the freighties want, paradoxically, being around Ben IS the safest place on the Island or wherever, because he can protect everyone if necessary, and Juliet disobeying him with the Tempest will probably turn out to be a huge mistake.

A great post! And, I mean, it is absolutely clear neither Dan nor Charlotte (oh, how I despise that woman) have a full grasp of the situation merely because they want to capture Ben...And while I would always say that Benjamin isSo, the bottom line is - the freighties know some of the hardcore science facts about the Island, which leads them to believe they are so superior. They also know this story about Ben that is clearly not true, and which I believe will lead to their demise or assimilation with him in the end. What they don't know is that Losties know much more about life on the Island than they do, and even if they don't know the hard facts, they have Ben, which is more than enough as a pro-not-underestimate-them case.

And then I think that Jack is fairly screwed because he was turned against Ben by lovely Juliet and Charlotte. Of course, Jack never liked Ben (how could he), but his whole problem in Season 4 and him being an anti-hero has a lot to do with him turning completely against Ben, who is, ultimately, the only person who can save them (now, I know, Ben was in the camp where everyone was shot, but that was because Locke made him come, and while I DO agree that they would probably not be very safe around the man the freighties want, paradoxically, being around Ben IS the safest place on the Island or wherever, because he can protect everyone if necessary, and Juliet disobeying him with the Tempest will probably turn out to be a huge mistake.
I don't think I would say I despise Charlotte, I think she has a certain arrogance and naivte that caused her to believe she could handle the island but it is becoming clear to her she can't. Watch that scene again where she sees theh doctor's body for the first time it's quick but it's more scared little girl than warrior. And the fact that she is starting to realize that makes the character fascinating. I'm not a big Jack fan either but after everything Ben has put Ben through I could completely understand how Jack wouldn't believe Ben. But he did repeatedly ignored evidence that the freighties weren't being honest. Equally ironic is that the one thing Locke was right about was that when he said, "whatever these people came here for it isn't us." The real tragic thing about this season, knowing how we know it turns out in the future is that had they kept their egos in check and their need to be proven right, things might have turned out differently.

I don't think I would say I despise Charlotte, I think she has a certain arrogance and naivte that caused her to believe she could handle the island but it is becoming clear to her she can't. Watch that scene again where she sees theh doctor's body for the first time it's quick but it's more scared little girl than warrior. And the fact that she is starting to realize that makes the character fascinating. I'm not a big Jack fan either but after everything Ben has put Ben through I could completely understand how Jack wouldn't believe Ben. But he did repeatedly ignored evidence that the freighties weren't being honest. Equally ironic is that the one thing Locke was right about was that when he said, "whatever these people came here for it isn't us." The real tragic thing about this season, knowing how we know it turns out in the future is that had they kept their egos in check and their need to be proven right, things might have turned out differently.

I just really don't like her character, and she is the only character next to Juliet and Keamy I really don't like...that's all :biggrin:

As for Jack not trusting Ben, I completely agree with you, and I already said how I can picture Jack not trusting him; but what happened with the freighter people put their survival into question, and that is not just a matter of trust...I believe Jack will come back as the brave man we once knew, but he cannot do that until he opens his eyes and sees it's not Juliet who he should follow, but either Benjamin or... well, Ben. See, the difference between Juliet and Ben is that Juliet is acting selfishly and she is full of hatred towards a man she never understood...She wants HER ARSE to get off the island, and she has no idea what is really going on apparently...She wants Jack to "Help me, will you help me?", instead of seeing that there are far more important things going on... Like a frivolous child, she likes this dude, so she acts irrationally...I see where her hatred for Benjamin comes from, and I don't blame her for that, but it seems like she is the only Other who never really understood anything that was going on, and she still doesn't. That's why her and Jack are such a great couple- they are both oblivious to the fact that there is much more going on than just the two of them being stranded on an Island with this seemingly odd guy who does odd things and they never seem to realize that there might be something important from it, since it's highly unlikely that he just wants to live in a barrack on this bizarre Island by himself and kidnap kids...While I couldn't care less about Juliet and want her off the show, I am truly sad to see Jack being so weak and susceptible to influences that guide only his survival (and obviously not even that, we all saw it), and all that making him unable to see the bigger picture in all that...I agree it is difficult, with only a few months on the Island, but, y'know...I want Jack to be his old self, and he cannot do it with Juliet...And don't contradict me on this one, guys, I know there is much more to all characters, but this is just one perspective I am showing...

I think its ironic that it looks like increasingly in every episode especially with Keamy's attack on the barracks that Charlotte and Daniel are going to need the losties to save them instead of the other way around.

I think the reason Dan lied is far more simple than everyone might think. But you have to put yourselves in the Losties' shoes for a sec for this. You've been on an island for three months, during which time lots of supernatural things happen. But many of you don't see them as supernatural (science vs. faith) and dismiss them.

So now you've got these freighties here, and you're thinking you're going to get rescued. How would you react if someone told you there was half an hour's time discrepancy between the island and the real world? You'd think it was BS and that they were covering up for something else...

Dan knows that the truth won't be very well accepted, and keeps mum. That's my explanation.