"Circle" or not, I feel that it is slowly becoming far too contrived. Lost to me started out as a slow progressing show, because it was only taking place over a set period of time and I kept up. It had big and meaningful/emotional moments. The flashbacks were definitely my favorite part and how they tied back into the present. And I have no problem with flash forwards or the general direction of the show now..I realize either the story has to grow or the pace has to quicken.

However one of the things that has already been discussed alot in this episode is one of the things I feel makes the show seem far too planned. Obviously it's a scripted show, but I think the writers are taking away any natural/human feeling from it..as if the characters do things you wouldn't think they would do if they had free will. Namely, I'm talking about Ben telling Charles he couldn't kill him.

I'll admit I am biased and have wanted Ben dead since day one. And I was supremely disappointed to see him post-island with Sayid a few episodes back. He has had so many close calls and reasons to be killed that it has gotten pretty unrealistic if you ask me, and now he is seemingly making up reasons he can or cannot do that kind of thing himself. And shooting Locke? Now all of a sudden it seems both of them have totally forgot about that and think where they are now is where they are supposed to be, even though he left him for dead a few days back?

Whether or not it is revealed to us directly why he can't kill Charles, or why everyone else does what they do (or doesn't), it takes a toll on me to hear ahead of time what can or cannot happen when no reason is given along with that information..and then the show just goes on its merry way. Flash forwards give some information about where they end up, but naturally even more details have to be skipped this way. Events are easy to explain, but human actions are what require more time, and so far the show has been great with this. But lately I see it going the other way. Makes it harder to believe, which makes it harder to enjoy.

Don't know what I would do if after 3 good seasons the show turns completely around and ends with gaping holes and massive questions left unanswered due directly to the needlessly contrived dialogue raising new and nagging questions along the way. Not to mention emotional scenes set to great MG's piano score being replaced with shoot-outs. :undecide:

Anywho, discuss?

Don't know what I would do if after 3 good seasons the show turns completely around and ends with gaping holes and massive questions left unanswered due directly to the needlessly contrived dialogue raising new and nagging questions along the way. Not to mention emotional scenes set to great MG's piano score being replaced with shoot-outs.

Yep, this has been the topic of a LOT of discussion on the Fuselage this season, and I think rightfully so. It HAS become a different show in many ways, and you point out some of the ways in which that is undeniably the case, although those things were well underway at the beginning of Sesaon 3 I'd argue. I only hope that the reason it has devolved into the show it is now (although I found The Economist closer in emotional tone to earlier seasons than any other ep this season) will be EXPLAINED somehow by developments to be seen in the show itself, although I'm not sure how that would work (games, cons, time travel etc.). Otherwise, we'll just have to chalk it up to poorer quality writing and/or commercial demands for more quickly-moving sci-fi and action-oriented episodes to draw in more of the younger male with ADD demographic :frown:

I would tend to agree with you. There are far, far too many situations this year where a character does something, and I say to myself, "there's no way a real person would do that", or "why didn't they do X in that situation?' I can understand a few here and there, and maybe the writer's strike thing messed up this season, but it feels a lot different than the previous three seasons.

The shoot outs are getting a little ridiculous.

I disagree. I love the way show has evolved. Eventually the premise of a bunch of people stranded on an island would have gotten terribly dull. I like that they keep shaking things up, or should I say how they've been shaking things up. It's a wonderful story and it's holding my interest just fine. I love that at the end of the eps there's something new to wonder about.

Well I'm not talking so much about the evolution of the show. The main point in that so far being that we now know who gets off the island...ok fine.

I'm talking more about the explanations we are/aren't getting. The hard-to-believe actions taken by some characters, and yes, the everlasting notion of questions being asked but not answered..

It's fine to bring up new questions and such, but we can only handle so many unanswered ones before it gets old. Not to mention the show has to end sometime, and with it the things to wonder about need some conclusion. That is another issue though, what I'm talking about is more about the writing/lines/characters than the overall show ending which is probably more or less already thought out.

One reason there is a difference is probably because of new writers and producers joining the show.

I really don't understand how people expected this show to stay the same from season to season. The tone each season has been different than the rest and I'm sure it will continue this way. So this season it is an action show. There's only so much you can do emotionally with character when you have action going on. I personally think they've done plenty emotionally with the characters so far, and I am still a huge fan of the show. If you can't handle them giving a little bit of information and having to wonder how it fits in to the rest of the story then I have no idea how you've lasted this long with the show. Us finding out that Ben can't kill Charles is EXACTLY the same as finding out that the numbers had to be entered to prevent the end of the world. We are told something about the end result, only to be filled in later. This has happened time and time again on this show and will continue to happen.

As for the characters themselves and how they are acting, well they are in a dangerous situation. Charlie's dying words were a warning about the people that they had been told were going to save them. All of the newcomers have been lying to the castaways and they are realizing it and the situation has quickly turned fatal in some cases. There isn't much time to act how we saw them when they weren't facing death. Now there are a couple exceptions, like Claire, but I have faith in the writers. I'm sure I won't be let down. What it comes down to is you have to have patience to be a fan of this show.

Edit:One reason there is a difference is probably because of new writers and producers joining the show.There hasn't been a single new writer for any of the episodes so far this season.

Edit2: I take that back, Greg Nations hadn't written an episode before this season, but he is hardly new to the show.

i have often wondered how some things are just 'let go'
i mean, why when faraday says they arent there to rescue them, dont the losties tie him up and continually torture him (or find another way) until they get some answers.
and how can locke (or sawyer) not continue to grill ben about hte island-
instead they just ask a single question and act like the half-assed answer is sufficient.

but all in all i have no complaints, and will continue to wathc and love it.

On one hand, I agree with you that this season leaves us saying "What the....." alot more. I remember an interview with TPTB that they compared Lost to a mosaic. Each show is simply a new piece to the puzzle and you will not be able to see the whole picture until all the pieces are revealed....

Then we also have to remember the writers strike and the fact that we have been shorted some episodes. They had to cram more information into each episode, and some info had to be cut out. I think this has made a very big change to our beloved show.

However, I admit, that no matter how far fetched thing will ever get, Nothing will stop me from watching. Maybe because I have already vested way too much of my time, or that I must know how all the pieces will fall together......

Plus, I am a sci-fi fan, and I am used to far fetched ideas, I would be dissapointed if TPTB debunked many relevant theories just to maintain the mystery... ( such as time travel)

Well I'm not talking so much about the evolution of the show. The main point in that so far being that we now know who gets off the island...ok fine.

I'm talking more about the explanations we are/aren't getting. The hard-to-believe actions taken by some characters, and yes, the everlasting notion of questions being asked but not answered..

It's fine to bring up new questions and such, but we can only handle so many unanswered ones before it gets old. Not to mention the show has to end sometime, and with it the things to wonder about need some conclusion. That is another issue though, what I'm talking about is more about the writing/lines/characters than the overall show ending which is probably more or less already thought out.

One reason there is a difference is probably because of new writers and producers joining the show.


Everyday I deal with hard to believe actions taken by real people, it's not hard to believe that characters on a tv show would do inexplicable things as well. Just because you or I would do one thing in a particular situation doesn't mean that the third or fourth person might do something different or see that situation differently. And I think they do fill in more gaps than people give them credit for. And the show ain't over yet! I'm sure most of the big answers will be given by the time it's wrapped up. I think the questions are one thing that holds my interest in the show. I don't find it old at all, having everything spelled out and being able to see what's coming in every episode is what makes a show old.
I'm loving this season.

I really don't understand how people expected this show to stay the same from season to season. The tone each season has been different than the rest and I'm sure it will continue this way. So this season it is an action show. There's only so much you can do emotionally with character when you have action going on. I personally think they've done plenty emotionally with the characters so far, and I am still a huge fan of the show. If you can't handle them giving a little bit of information and having to wonder how it fits in to the rest of the story then I have no idea how you've lasted this long with the show. Us finding out that Ben can't kill Charles is EXACTLY the same as finding out that the numbers had to be entered to prevent the end of the world. We are told something about the end result, only to be filled in later. This has happened time and time again on this show and will continue to happen.

As for the characters themselves and how they are acting, well they are in a dangerous situation. Charlie's dying words were a warning about the people that they had been told were going to save them. All of the newcomers have been lying to the castaways and they are realizing it and the situation has quickly turned fatal in some cases. There isn't much time to act how we saw them when they weren't facing death. Now there are a couple exceptions, like Claire, but I have faith in the writers. I'm sure I won't be let down. What it comes down to is you have to have patience to be a fan of this show.

Edit:There hasn't been a single new writer for any of the episodes so far this season.

Edit2: I take that back, Greg Nations hadn't written an episode before this season, but he is hardly new to the show.
I agree with every word you've said, I think TV audiences have been taught to accept shows in which the plots, characters, and situations stay the same I could spend this entire post listing off shows in which nothing changes from season to season. I think people are having trouble adjusting to the fact that these characters are changing, like Hurley for instance he's no longer the happy go lucky slacker guy who chimes in with one liners, in addition to surviving several of his friends dying and killing a man he is taking a more active leadership role and that is fascinating. If anything I think the writing this season is tighter than season 3, many of the interesting characters got sidelined last season. Sayid for instance has been in this season more already than nearly all of season 3, and he has had more to do emotionally and in terms of plot as well. I think maybe people's complaints come from the writers' strike. It amazing they'll have what 13 episodes, but if they had the full 16 episodes they would have had room to do everything they wanted, but after the strike they had to priorittize what was important. If there had been the full 16 episodes we would have seen flashback episodes for Charlotte, Daniel, Miles, and Frank, but other things took priority. If these characters didn't change, didn't make mistakes, sometimes stupid ones, the show wouldn't be as fascinating. Perfect people on an island isn't interesting.

I guess I was misinformed about the writers. Certainly feels like new ones though =\

And I will say this...obviously the story is starting to center on Widmore alot more, so hopefully we will get answers about him.

(And hopefully Ben eventually dies. Sorry, just can't let that go.)

I think people are frustrated because, well it can be a frustrating show to watch, every answer raises ten more questions. And the answers will never be able to be summed up by a character saying The island. . . in a single paragraph.

Actually, the big picture is emerging very very fast this year, I bet many of our theories are actually getting closer to reality of the show because we've got more information. but they can't reveal all yet.

Pacing a dramatic serie over 6 years is HARD, how many other shows have done it well or even done it at all, not many.

A show that I vested much in, the X-files, was a sensation and seemed tight until it all went kablooey in the last 3 years. I have much more fate that this show will be pace correctly and give us a satisying end.

I've been really pleased with this year's writing - it's very intense! The addition of Brian K. Vaughn has been a dramatic improvement over the 12-year-olds who were writing for Season 2 - "You hittin' that?":doh:

I'm currently chalking all the "Super Human" powers to a "Bigger Picture". Either that or TPTB are just trying to elevate the starkness of the episodes with some light humor - kinda a poke in the eye for the viewer.

Otherwise - I've been very excited about every episode! Most of them have rocked with action! (Except for Juliett's... It was slightly dull)

"Circle" or not, I feel that it is slowly becoming far too contrived. Lost to me started out as a slow progressing show, because it was only taking place over a set period of time and I kept up. It had big and meaningful/emotional moments. The flashbacks were definitely my favorite part and how they tied back into the present. And I have no problem with flash forwards or the general direction of the show now..I realize either the story has to grow or the pace has to quicken.

However one of the things that has already been discussed alot in this episode is one of the things I feel makes the show seem far too planned. Obviously it's a scripted show, but I think the writers are taking away any natural/human feeling from it..as if the characters do things you wouldn't think they would do if they had free will. Namely, I'm talking about Ben telling Charles he couldn't kill him.

I'll admit I am biased and have wanted Ben dead since day one. And I was supremely disappointed to see him post-island with Sayid a few episodes back. He has had so many close calls and reasons to be killed that it has gotten pretty unrealistic if you ask me, and now he is seemingly making up reasons he can or cannot do that kind of thing himself. And shooting Locke? Now all of a sudden it seems both of them have totally forgot about that and think where they are now is where they are supposed to be, even though he left him for dead a few days back?

Whether or not it is revealed to us directly why he can't kill Charles, or why everyone else does what they do (or doesn't), it takes a toll on me to hear ahead of time what can or cannot happen when no reason is given along with that information..and then the show just goes on its merry way. Flash forwards give some information about where they end up, but naturally even more details have to be skipped this way. Events are easy to explain, but human actions are what require more time, and so far the show has been great with this. But lately I see it going the other way. Makes it harder to believe, which makes it harder to enjoy.

Don't know what I would do if after 3 good seasons the show turns completely around and ends with gaping holes and massive questions left unanswered due directly to the needlessly contrived dialogue raising new and nagging questions along the way. Not to mention emotional scenes set to great MG's piano score being replaced with shoot-outs. :undecide:

Anywho, discuss?

The lack of logical behavior by the characters is driving me nuts. John Locke is shot by Ben. He told Locke that only way he could keep from killing Jack and Juliet was to have the sub blown up and here comes John to make his wish come true. Well, if I'm in Locke's position, I want Ben to tell me why Ben shot him and why he said he had to kill Jack and Juliet. Then, when Locke has Ben tied up, Sawyer makes a great suggestion. Shoot off Ben's little toe and other parts until he starts to talk. So he needs his foot to walk? Does he need the pinkies on his hands to walk? No, well they should be gone for sure and then lose part after part until he starts spilling the beans. If Locke believes things are not what they seem, why not get real answers? Why not put the hand grenade into Ben's mouth?

But then we get a hint at the answer from Miles. Ben was tied up, now he's eating cake. It is a clue as to what is really going on, what Ben really is. I know it's a clue, but it does not make any sense.

Ben says he has no idea what the smoke monster is. Low and behold he summons the smoke monster from the bowels of the island. John, he's lied to you again, but here John goes off into the jungle following Ben like he's the most trustworthy person he's ever met. All I can say is that Locke must know something we don't. He must be getting some information from somewhere that tells him to do what Ben says. Be it dreams, visions, peyote paste or Boone, something is making Locke behave like a lunatic and blindly follow Ben. Otherwise, Locke's behavior makes absolutely no sense.

But again, it must be a clue. So I have to be patient until I can get answers.

I think I agree with most of what you are saying. I too am not all that crazy about Ben Lyin'___, but I try not to let it upset me. I have decided to be patient, and I will wait and see where these things lead. The writers have shown themselves to be very inventive, and I trust that they know what they are doing. I will give them a chance to make things right. Even though it could just be a case of blind faith all around.

Regarding Locke and Ben, Locke knows that Ben isn't telling him jack. Ben lied to Locke's face about the smoke monster with the barrel of a gun pointed at his forehead. I agree that Locke would probably be more emotional about the situation but I fault that with a shortage of Locke material in general. He hasn't had his own episode yet, or even one that has given him enough to shine, so we haven't gotten to probe too deeply into his psychological state. But...

Hopefully with the Locke-centric "Cabin Fever" we'll finally get some of that.


Remember, Locke can't find Jacob's cabin. He doesn't know what to do. I don't think he trusts Ben at all, he's simply loosened his leash to get what he wants from him. Locke thought he could squeeze out Ben and become the island's de facto protector but for some reason Jacob hasn't responded. So Locke needs Ben just as much as Ben needs Locke.

Just a more general statement on the topic at hand, I can see where the complaints are coming from, and I agree with them to a slight degree, but on the whole I find this season stellar. It's a definite shift in style, but that's one of Lost's greatest strengths -- you never get the same thing twice. Each season has its own feel: S1 is mysterious and mystical, S2 is philosophical and psychological, S3 is personal and dramatic, S4 is fast-paced and thrilling.

The flash-forward device is the major shake-up because for the first time in a long time the off-island action is heavily plot-related and not a direct character-study like many of the latest flashbacks had become. I think the emphasis on character is very important, and at time I think they've shortchanged some of the big names like Jack, Sawyer and Locke, but I recognize that they're simply filling in pieces of the mosaic in a new way. There have still been some intense personal characters moments -- this past episode was witness to some of the greatest. It's the pacing that's noticeably different. We have the mysteries in the present now mixed with the mysteries of the future that demand a lot of us viewers to simply decipher what is happening with the plot.

But the writers have proved themselves in the past. I have faith that by the end of the season the likes of Jack and Locke will see their due, the emotion and personal drama will return and solidify the season, and the questions of character motivation in between the island and the flash-forwards will be made clear. I think everything will gel in the end. We're simply getting a flurry of things thrown at us right now, and it's a lot to juggle with the large cast and the splintered grouping of characters -- you've got Jack & the beach, Locke & New Otherton, and the guys on the freighter.

I think this season will play out well on DVD. Week-to-week things may seem fractured but once we see the whole picture it'll be easier to pick up on the more subtle character moments and see the flow of the story. And once we get a better handle on the plot, whether at the end of this season or later in Season Five, I think the characters will shine through.

I've been up and down about the show's writing since Season 2.

I don't blame the writers for "contriving" events and dialogue in the show. That's kind of the heart of creative writing. What matters is how talented your contrivances are. In Season 1, they were unmatched. Then, in Season 2, they hit shaky ground, and never stopped wavering since. Sometimes it's spot on, and sometimes it's just terrible.

The explanation for what made Michael run off to find Walt (talking to someone on the hatch computer) was just terrible. In the earlier episode, Jack CHECKS the computer to see if anyone is there, and there isn't.

It's things like that that have me scratching my head, going, "Are they even going back and WATCHING the scenes they're trying to fill the gaps in for?!"

Sometimes the characters are spot-on. Sometimes they're farther from where they ought to be. In Season 1, Jack is extremely fatigued from a prolonged blood transfusion, but he still musters up the rage to attack Locke. But when Daniel reveals his betrayal, Jack can't even throw a slap. Who cares if his /whatever/ bursted. It's Jack. He'd throw a fist out anyway.

Now I just don't know what to think. This most recent episode really got me doubting, yet it was still very entertaining. I'll still stick it out to see what happens.

The way in which LOST has evolved reminds me of another favorite show by the same creator, ALIAS.

It lost fans near the end because it didn't stay stuck in one situation, say like CHEERS where it's always about a bar. LOST is about the island, but the focus has shifted. I love the show, down with the haters!

The lack of logical behavior by the characters is driving me nuts. John Locke is shot by Ben. He told Locke that only way he could keep from killing Jack and Juliet was to have the sub blown up and here comes John to make his wish come true. Well, if I'm in Locke's position, I want Ben to tell me why Ben shot him and why he said he had to kill Jack and Juliet. Then, when Locke has Ben tied up, Sawyer makes a great suggestion. Shoot off Ben's little toe and other parts until he starts to talk. So he needs his foot to walk? Does he need the pinkies on his hands to walk? No, well they should be gone for sure and then lose part after part until he starts spilling the beans. If Locke believes things are not what they seem, why not get real answers? Why not put the hand grenade into Ben's mouth?

Sorry for my present long-winded out from left field post, but I have been troubled by issues you mention for several seasons now. The best way I can make sense of Locke and also Ben and a few others' constantly mystifying/illogical seeming behavior is a version of "it's all a game" theory that I know drives some fans nuts, so if you hate that theory, please ignore the following ...

It has seemed to me since the earlier seasons that a select few of the Islanders have come to REALIZE they are actually IN A GAME of some kind, a virtual reality environment perhaps, and that greatly effects their behavior. (It could be a Truman Show like con, but I find that harder to accept the more that "magical" seeming events occur on island) They realize that when you "kill" someone on this island you're not REALLY killing someone, which makes it a lot easier to "kill" people knowing that, but it can still be tough to go through with because it is so realistic (witness Locke's inability to go through with killing Cooper, although he is able to do same to Naomi). Ben has realized this perhaps before all the others and is eagerly trying to do whatever it takes including manipulate the rules of the game to his advantage vis a vis Widmore. Ben might misperceive the nature of the game as a chess match between himself and Widmore, but I highly doubt that is the true nature of the construct. This scenario could be a bit like lucid dreaming, but within a Matrix-like environment. This would explain the growing desensitization towards violence/killing on the show in a number of characters (e.g. in Sawyer?) as well, as when you "kill" people in a video game, there are no consequences, morally speaking.

Note that it is a game in the Existenz (film) sense, with no simple predefined objective or goal ... you have to PLAY the game to realize WHY you're playing the game. Perhaps as LostSanity has argued, the goal is a sort of therapy for the players. Regardless, Locke is desperately trying to figure out the goal of the game, what it takes to "win." Those who have realized it is a game keep their lips sealed for the most part so as to have an upper hand over those that haven't realized it yet.
The first moment I had that thought was way back in Season 1 when Locke is playing backgammon with Walt ("Two sides, one dark one light ...") and tells him a "secret." That was a pivotal scene for me. Perhaps realizing he can walk now clued him into what is really going on, and his secret was that "anything is possible on this island", i.e. this is a virtual environment?

The way in which LOST has evolved reminds me of another favorite show by the same creator, ALIAS.

It lost fans near the end because it didn't stay stuck in one situation, say like CHEERS where it's always about a bar. LOST is about the island, but the focus has shifted. I love the show, down with the haters!

It's kinda like Cheers. You know, every time Jack stumbles back to the beach after a long adventure, everyone looks up and shouts, "Jack!".

It's kinda like Cheers. You know, every time Jack stumbles back to the beach after a long adventure, everyone looks up and shouts, "Jack!".


Ouch! ;-) I guess there is that.

It's the same show but it has matured, i.e. it's supposed to be different.

However, I am surprised that it has become so much about Ben. But, then again, it is a better show because of Ben and the actor who plays him.

I will agree with those that say that the first half of this season (4) was a let down, i.e. poorly written. But, the story is picking up.

I've greatly enjoyed this season. Only Ji Yeon didn't work for me.

Same here, except I'd swap Ji Yeon for The Other Woman. Aside from that disappointment, I've really liked every episode.

Ha, thats funny avan.

I hear what all of you are saying. I really don't give much weight to any game theory, or any theory at all really. If the Island were some kind of one-off reality or game and thats all that mattered, we would not be in such a smooth transition to post-island rest of the world affairs like Ben and Sayid globetrotting around killing people left and right.

And I don't really know what anyone means when they say nobody who has been killed is really dead. There are plenty who are not coming back..

What really gets on my nerves is that Locke and Jack along with many others have and would kill someone at the drop of a hat, yet Ben who has along the way screwed with them both physically and mentally for an extended period of time over and over again goes untouched just because the writers have, mistakenly in my opinion, decided to make him a very large part of the story from now on..off the island. I just don't buy that he wouldn't have been killed by now. No bullets in the gun? Stab him with a spear..break his neck...SOMETHING. I find this the hardest part to believe about the show so far...and honestly the one thing that changed what the whole show could have been for me.