I know they are 'dead' but who do you think the other 2 are the oceanic 6 reference to here?

We might never know, I thought the 2 were Jin and Claire, but obviously I was wrong, also wrong about the story they are telling about Aaron, I don't think it will matter who they were.

I don't know, but it must be people that would be important to their story that they were alive for a little while on the island. And it isn't Jin since Sun said he died on the plane; and it isn't Claire since here mother was under the impression that she had died in the crash also. Who else would they need to say lived and then died rather than just saying that they died when the plane crashed?

Locke and Sawyer

Even more than that, I'm wondering why concocting a story that two more people survived and then died is even necessary at all, considering all the lies they are already telling. What purpose does it serve? To add to the "realism" of their story?

Yeah I have no idea why this part of the story matters but it clearly does. I'm anxious to know.

Wouldn't it be 3 others, not 2? They said that 8 survived the crash, but Aaron wasn't born yet, so at the time of the crash, there would have been 5 of the O6 (Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sun, and Sayid) ... so that would mean 3 more.

I thought TPTB said it didn't matter who the other 2 were - they just decided it should be 2.

I don't know, but it must be people that would be important to their story that they were alive for a little while on the island. And it isn't Jin since Sun said he died on the plane; and it isn't Claire since here mother was under the impression that she had died in the crash also. Who else would they need to say lived and then died rather than just saying that they died when the plane crashed?
Yeah, I assumed Jin would be one in order to explain Sun's island conception. But apparently not. I have no idea now who it would be.

I will have to guess and say it doesn't even matter. We could guess all next two weeks but it doesnt matter, does it?

Why would they say two others survived for a while? It makes no sense. I think it was Oceanic's influence - or why ever Jack feels the need to have everyone lying.

Basically good press, something to take the heat off of them.

The only reason I could possibly think of to pretend that there were 2 more with them, would be that it is more believable that some survivors might have made it out of the plane, but had very serious injuries. Obviously, none of the 06 had severe injuries. Even that idea is just stretching it, so who knows. Maybe if we knew exactly who is behind the whole lie to begin with, we'd have a better idea of why they included that.

Another thought, might be that Charlie would be one of them. Although, I doubt Penny would be running around telling people that she recieved a phone call from a thought-to-be-dead rock star from an underground science station on a non-existant island, so that may not be the case at all.

I don't think it matters because the Oceanic 6's entire story is a lie, they could say anyone, Shannon and Charlie, Jin and Eko, or some redshirts. Here's my question, Kate said she was six months pregnant when the marshall grabbed her in Australia, I'm no expert but don't women show at six months. And I don't know what the protocol is for extraditing prisoners but wouldn't they give Kate a medical exam? Couldn't medical records show whether or not she was pregnant, isn' t that a hole in the story? I realize she has to say that, because if she comes up with the story that Claire died in childbirth and she took care of Aaron on the island, the authorities wouldn't let her keep Aaron given her legal situation so Aaron had to be her biological child.

I don't think it matters because the Oceanic 6's entire story is a lie, they could say anyone, Shannon and Charlie, Jin and Eko, or some redshirts. Here's my question, Kate said she was six months pregnant when the marshall grabbed her in Australia, I'm no expert but don't women show at six months. And I don't know what the protocol is for extraditing prisoners but wouldn't they give Kate a medical exam? Couldn't medical records show whether or not she was pregnant, isn' t that a hole in the story? I realize she has to say that, because if she comes up with the story that Claire died in childbirth and she took care of Aaron on the island, the authorities wouldn't let her keep Aaron given her legal situation so Aaron had to be her biological child.

Most women show by 6 yeah, but not always. Besides...they're lying anyway. Unless the press has a photo of a non-pregnant looking Kate boarding the plane, who would think to ask? And if they did ask, the O6 could just lie about that too. As for the questions on medical records, why would Kate have medical records? She was on the run and in Australia - she could just claim to have never gone to a doc about being pregnant, or that she did and gave a fake name.

I don't think it matters because the Oceanic 6's entire story is a lie, they could say anyone, Shannon and Charlie, Jin and Eko, or some redshirts. Here's my question, Kate said she was six months pregnant when the marshall grabbed her in Australia, I'm no expert but don't women show at six months.

For the first pregnancy it takes a little longer than subsequent pregnancies for a woman to show. With my first I got away with it for six months before people noticed. After the first couple of kids a woman's body show after three months. By that time the skin is all stretched out.

Another thought, might be that Charlie would be one of them.

That's exactly what I was thinking. But do the O6 know he actually spoke to Penny? I can't remember...



And Kate could have always had Aaron preemie you know....


Also, if they had not already ascribed names to the non-O6, I bet Jack would have told Claire's mom that he had actually met her.

Rose and Bernard?

Wouldn't the press want to know the identities of the two who survived initially? What a sad thing for their families to think that their loved one survived the crash only to die a slower death (drowning?). Seems pointless.

Most women show by 6 yeah, but not always. Besides...they're lying anyway. Unless the press has a photo of a non-pregnant looking Kate boarding the plane, who would think to ask? And if they did ask, the O6 could just lie about that too. As for the questions on medical records, why would Kate have medical records? She was on the run and in Australia - she could just claim to have never gone to a doc about being pregnant, or that she did and gave a fake name.
What I meant was would the marshal's service give Kate a medical exam before getting her on the plane, you know as a part of protocol or law, I'm not sure on laws governing international extradition, that would be where the medical records would come from. And wouldn't the authorities give the six medical exams and wouldn't that exam indicate that Kate had never been pregnant? I'm saying that if someone dug deep enough they could find out that Kate wasn't pregnant when she got on the plane. And there were people she came into contact with in Australia, like the farmer who would know she wasn't pregnant.

I wonder if they said 8 survived because they had to explain 2 bodies on the raft? I don't know any spoilers, but it's mentioned that they arrived on the island via a raft...I'm assuming it's the same raft from the ship. I think it was mentioned that the raft holds 6 people, not including the driver. If they got 7 people on the boat, plus Aaron who is too small to count, then maybe 2 people on the raft don't survive. they would have to explain the bodies, hence "8 of us survived the wreck, but 2 of us perished."

Except didn't Jack say that they were in the water for over a day immediately after the crash before the currents carried them to the island, by which time there were only six of them left?

Hurley would also probably count as two people on the raft - no offense.:kiss:

Well, I hope the significance of having 8 original survivors is at least mentioned a little bit more. I would like one of the initial survivors to be Charlie. If Hurley had to encounter one of Charlie's family members, that would definitely worsen his craziness.

What I meant was would the marshal's service give Kate a medical exam before getting her on the plane, you know as a part of protocol or law, I'm not sure on laws governing international extradition, that would be where the medical records would come from. And wouldn't the authorities give the six medical exams and wouldn't that exam indicate that Kate had never been pregnant? I'm saying that if someone dug deep enough they could find out that Kate wasn't pregnant when she got on the plane. And there were people she came into contact with in Australia, like the farmer who would know she wasn't pregnant.

I don't know about the farmer, but I would think a Medical Exam of a prisnor would take place after they booked her into jail in America after the plane ride.

Didn't Jack say something at Kate's trial about how she rescued some people after the plane crashed? I'm trying to remember what he said, maybe someone else does.

I see what a lot of you are saying, Why add in 2 more survivors if you don't have to? It would just make a big lie even more complicated.

I don't know about the farmer, but I would think a Medical Exam of a prisnor would take place after they booked her into jail in America after the plane ride.

Didn't Jack say something at Kate's trial about how she rescued some people after the plane crashed? I'm trying to remember what he said, maybe someone else does.

I see what a lot of you are saying, Why add in 2 more survivors if you don't have to? It would just make a big lie even more complicated.
I haven't watched the episode yet but I got the impression that the thing with 2 more survivors was made up on spot at the press conference to cover a question they couldn't answer. And like I said it doesn't matter who the other two are because the whole story is a lie.

Yeah I have no idea why this part of the story matters but it clearly does. I'm anxious to know.

Well, remember that Charlie spoke to Penny, identifying himself as Charlie Pace of Oceanic 815. If one of the two that survived the crash but didn't make it back to civilization isn't Charlie Pace, then Penny Widmore will know that something's up with the O6 story.

I haven't watched the episode yet but I got the impression that the thing with 2 more survivors was made up on spot at the press conference to cover a question they couldn't answer. And like I said it doesn't matter who the other two are because the whole story is a lie.

Exactly. It's a lie so there weren't two other survivors. Just a bit of embellishment to make the lie more plausible perhaps. But still a LIE.

Yeah, it probably doesn't matter who the other 2 are. Jack may have decided they needed to say there were 2 others to make their story sound more plausible. It's already hard enough to swallow that a pregnant woman and 3 folks with no survival experience survived. A soldier like Sayid is maybe possible. All of them surviving and one of them giving birth, all with no serious injuries is pretty amazing. I think we will discover that the 2 were just added to make everything sound more realistic. I actually hope that's not the case but it probably is.

Yeah, it probably doesn't matter who the other 2 are. Jack may have decided they needed to say there were 2 others to make their story sound more plausible. It's already hard enough to swallow that a pregnant woman and 3 folks with no survival experience survived. A soldier like Sayid is maybe possible. All of them surviving and one of them giving birth, all with no serious injuries is pretty amazing. I think we will discover that the 2 were just added to make everything sound more realistic. I actually hope that's not the case but it probably is.
Well, the fact that Jack is a doctor makes the fact that they're alive and a pregnant woman safely gave birth on an island more plausible. Sayid's position as a soldier makes their survival plausible also. And remember, the reporter did ask why they all looked so healthy, that adds to the reality of the situation.

Could it be Michael and Walt....I don't know, it could be Sawyer and Locke....but I am with whoever said that it is not important, the 6 are already lying to say everyone died, who cares if 2 supposedly survived and THEN died? It doesn't matter......

Rose and Bernard?

Wouldn't the press want to know the identities of the two who survived initially? What a sad thing for their families to think that their loved one survived the crash only to die a slower death (drowning?). Seems pointless.

Yeah, I thought it was really odd that they asked Sun about Jin and did not ask about the other two who survived the plane crash... A few other people in the thread mentioned that they think it is not really important to the story and I tend to agree with that.. at least right now, lol.

ETA: It's fun to speculate though. My guess would be Rose and Claire, no idea why, lol.

Well, remember that Charlie spoke to Penny, identifying himself as Charlie Pace of Oceanic 815. If one of the two that survived the crash but didn't make it back to civilization isn't Charlie Pace, then Penny Widmore will know that something's up with the O6 story.


I mean, I'm assuming Penny knows it's a lie anyway but is willing to go along with it in order to make it easier to find Desmond.

Mars would be a logical candidate for one of the two as he would've been sitting next to Kate, although the same would be true of Jin and Sun.

I think it'll be explained as two people who really are dead--for one thing to save embarrassment should they somehow ever find their way off the island; for another because, with Oceanic having identified a "regular" island where they're supposedly buried, their families may want to go in, exhume the bodies, and bring them home. My bet is that whoever engineered the cover-up went ahead and got 2 bodies off The Island and planted them on the other island. Paolo and Nikki perhaps??

I mean, I'm assuming Penny knows it's a lie anyway but is willing to go along with it in order to make it easier to find Desmond.

I'm not sure how it will play out, but I can't assume what you do.

Wouldn't it be 3 others, not 2? They said that 8 survived the crash, but Aaron wasn't born yet, so at the time of the crash, there would have been 5 of the O6 (Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sun, and Sayid) ... so that would mean 3 more.

LOL here we go again with the whole Aaron thing. :frusty: That was actually my first thought as well whne Jack said "at that point there were 8 of us left" I'm thinking they have to have a reason why these 2 or 3 people who initially survived are included in the story. I thought for sure Claire and Jin and possibly Charlie would have been some of the intitial survivors but after this episode we can eliminate Jin and Claire.

Also, at Kate's trial, Jack said he never met the US Marshall, so not Mars.

Well, the whole "story" is a lie - so I agree with others here that ultimately it doesn't matter who the other two people are.

Given that it's just a lie anyway, maybe it was just Jack's idea of throwing in his own "redshirts" to help embellish their fictitious cover story.

If prodded further as to who the other two people were, I think it would be a nice wink to the audience if Jack answered the media with: "I don't know who those two other guys were. They survived the crash, but they didn't last long enough for the day that we were out in the open ocean. All I know of them were their names: Carlton and Damon.".

Locke and Sawyer


Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Those 2 have been extremely important in the storyline, were both active in virtually all events that have led up to this point, and, neither one wants to be found.

My thoughts are this.

First Kate being 6 months pregnant when she got on the plane.
If this wasn't an issue or going to be one in furture eppi's.
Why have the reporter cut off when he asks the question?

I think it will come up at a later date. Maybe Kate keeping Aaron wasn't so simple. Who Aarons father is will probably be asked at some point when Kate can not avoid the question and the lie will be told then.

The other 2 suriviers of the crash who then died.
I would think they will have to be named. That is something their families would need to know.

At this point there are families wondering if it was their loved one. They are going to want to know how long they lived. How did they die. Did they suffer? Did they say any thing? Any last words,any messages to be sent home with the survivers. I would want to know if my loved one survived for so much as 5 minutes after that plane went down.

I don't see how it could be left that those two names are not important.
What I don't under stand is why make this whole lie more complex, by adding these two dead people to it?

Now that I think about it wouldn't there be 3 survivors of the crash that didn't make it to rescue? Aaron wasn't born yet, so that makes the other 5 of them plus 3 unknowns to make 8 survivors.

Did anyone actually say that 2 of them didn't make it, or was it that there were originally 8 survivors only?

Now that I think about it wouldn't there be 3 survivors of the crash that didn't make it to rescue? Aaron wasn't born yet, so that makes the other 5 of them plus 3 unknowns to make 8 survivors.

Did anyone actually say that 2 of them didn't make it, or was it that there were originally 8 survivors only?

Aaron may not have been on the plane but he was rescued off the island making him one of the 6

I think it will come up at a later date. Maybe Kate keeping Aaron wasn't so simple. Who Aarons father is will probably be asked at some point when Kate can not avoid the question and the lie will be told then.I'm not sure about the whole timeline with Kate, but wouldn't it be interesting if Kevin came forward thinking he was the baby's father?

i think it is not important who the other 2 are-
maybe they died immediately, maybe the survivors never got their names.
just 'fluff' for the press as to divert a little attention away from the concealed truth-

Scott and Steve :)

Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse.

100%
Here's my question, Kate said she was six months pregnant when the marshall grabbed her in Australia, I'm no expert but don't women show at six months.

It was absurd. My daughter was born at about 7.5 months and my wife was huge, by then. For people to suggest that Kate might not have looked that pregnant is LOL-ridiculous. Someone with her frame (very petite / thin) like Claire, they would look huge (just like my wife).

I think Steve and Scott are the other 2 y cause its a guess

Aaron may not have been on the plane but he was rescued off the island making him one of the 6

Understood. There is no dispute that Aaron is one of the 06 because clearly 6 people were rescued and he was one of them...

But what I and robinsto are pointing out that he wasn't originally a crash survivor as he wasn't born yet. Jack and everyone are clearly saying that 8 people survived the crash...not including Aaron that makes the other 5 from the 06 plus 3 more.

So the question isn't who are the other 2, but who are the other 3?

Understood. There is no dispute that Aaron is one of the 06 because clearly 6 people were rescued and he was one of them...

But what I and robinsto are pointing out that he wasn't originally a crash survivor as he wasn't born yet. Jack and everyone are clearly saying that 8 people survived the crash...not including Aaron that makes the other 5 from the 06 plus 3 more.

So the question isn't who are the other 2, but who are the other 3?

Well I'm going to say your splitting hairs and no. Because they have been nic name the Oceanic 06 by the press and the 06 are saying that 8 survived.
I'm thinking if they weren't counting Aaron, then someone the 06 or the press would correct the math.

First, I agree. They have to be talking about 3 people, if "8 survived the crash". Second, this just points out the danger of the lie. Besides their own story, the O6 have to keep this story straight. If you have some of them saying 2 people didn't make it and others saying 3 then that could raise eyebrows. Plus the other relatives are going to be pressing for any info on those 3. So everyone needs to agree on who those 3 where, so different names aren't used or different descriptions given. Folks will ask about approximate age, hair color, race, nationality, etc. If everyone is vague it will look suspicious, if folks haven't gotten the story straight then the O6 might let differing accounts slip.

I expect they will have determined what names they want to use - probably folks they knew on the island so they don't have to remember a lie about descriptions - and folks who have already died so there is no chance that if another lostie is rescued their lie is not exposed. I think we will see the is a reason for the names they decide on

Wouldn't one of them have to have been the fed marshall? how would they explain how kate got out of the cuffs?

Let me try to explain it again. Nobody EVER said that two other people survived. They've consistently said that there were EIGHT original survivors of the CRASH. At the time of the crash, Aaron wasn't born yet, so he can't be one of the original survivors, even though he is absolutely one of the O6. Only five of the six were there at the time of the crash, so if there were eight survivors, obviously there were three others.

None of the O6 nor anyone at the press conference ever said anything about two other bodies, they only mentioned the total number of original survivors as eight. Subtract the five members of the O6 who were on the plane at the time of the crash, and you get three.

And I do think it was very, very, odd that no one asked who the other original survivors were.
100%
Wouldn't one of them have to have been the fed marshall? how would they explain how kate got out of the cuffs?

At Kate's trial, I believe that Jack said the marshall didn't survive the crash.

Michael and Walt? meaning that neither one can be bothered ever again? Walt to live free and Michael to be buried under a different name (when in fact it's meant to be him in the coffin but infact it's empty!)

Michael and Walt? meaning that neither one can be bothered ever again? Walt to live free and Michael to be buried under a different name (when in fact it's meant to be him in the coffin but infact it's empty!)
While it doesn't matter who the other two are because the entire story is a lie, but they couldn't say Michael and Walt simply because Walt is living with his grandmother and reporters would want to go talk to Michael's mother and if they saw Walt someone would raise questions why is he here? Who is that boy? Then the entire cover story would be blown.

But what I and robinsto are pointing out that he wasn't originally a crash survivor as he wasn't born yet. Jack and everyone are clearly saying that 8 people survived the crash...not including Aaron that makes the other 5 from the 06 plus 3 more.

So the question isn't who are the other 2, but who are the other 3?
I hadn't even thought about that, but perhaps your wrong, technically Aaron would have survived the crash, in Kates womb. However you do make an interesting point. Either way I'm guessing it doesn't matter who the other 2 or 3 were and we'll probably never find out.

It doesn't matter because there were 30-40 other people that really survived, the 2-3 is a LIE.

The more productive question is...Why did the lie include saying that there were 2 other people who originally survived the crash?

The only thoughts I have are 1. Somewhere there is a hole in the lie, a part we haven't heard yet, and making up these extra people help fill it. 2. There are two survivors on the Island who need the extra protection of the O6 confirming to the world that they are dead.

It doesn't matter because there were 30-40 other people that really survived, the 2-3 is a LIE.

The more productive question is...Why did the lie include saying that there were 2 other people who originally survived the crash?

The only thoughts I have are 1. Somewhere there is a hole in the lie, a part we haven't heard yet, and making up these extra people help fill it. 2. There are two survivors on the Island who need the extra protection of the O6 confirming to the world that they are dead.
In their press conference they said two survived and it seemed that they said it to get out of a difficult to answer question. And saying two survived the initial crash but died just adds credibility to the Oceanic 6's story, makes it sound more believable, like one of those survival after a disaster stories that often happen in real life.

I'm saying Boone and Shannon

I think that they did go to the Island of Membata before they went to Sumba. I think this because someone will eventually go to the Island or someone already has gone and investigated it to see if they were really ever there. They would have to make it look as if they had actually been there. There are probably two graves on the Islands because those people died on the raft or on the Island of Membata because of something that happened to them during their escape from the real Island. So they need to explain the two graves.

I do have a question I don't know if it was ever asked before and I don't seem to recall it ever having been asked on any episode.

Did anyone of them ever ask Ben or any of the Others what the name of the Island is or where it is located? I know that the Other's settlment is call New Otherton but what about the Island itself.

As to who the two dead survivors (oxymoron) are I haven't quite thought that one out yet. yet.

Did anyone of them ever ask Ben or any of the Others what the name of the Island is or where it is located? I know that the Other's settlment is call New Otherton but what about the Island itself.


New Otherton is the joke name given by Sawyer, I believe it started as a joke amongst TPTB and they obviously wrote it into the show.

In the same vein, the only formal name given to the Island is 'Craphole Island' by Shannon.

While it doesn't matter who the other two are because the entire story is a lie, but they couldn't say Michael and Walt simply because Walt is living with his grandmother and reporters would want to go talk to Michael's mother and if they saw Walt someone would raise questions why is he here? Who is that boy? Then the entire cover story would be blown.


i agree with that, but even if im wrong surely the press would of checked on her anyway.......or someone local would say she's just suddenly raising a boy


In a way thats a bad consistancy right there

i agree with that, but even if im wrong surely the press would of checked on her anyway.......or someone local would say she's just suddenly raising a boy


In a way thats a bad consistancy right there
Well, judging from coverage of events in real life, the press would want interviews with the family members of the Oceanic 6 but I don't think they would interview the family members of all 384 passengers, some probably would be but Michael's mother might not be. Besides we don't yet know Michael's status in the future, is he in the world, on the island. But like I and others have said it doesn't matter who the other two people are because the entire story is a lie, it could be Charlie and Boone or Scott and jet engine guy from the pilot. But they definitely wouldn't say Michael and Walt that would blow their cover story for the reasons previously mentioned. And I think that they are lying to protect whoever is left behind on the island.

Michael and Walt?


Hmm i'm not so sure, they haven't claimed to have even been on the flight...

I doubt Kate would have been examined before leaving Australia, though at some point, I am sure that would have happened. What bothers me is that the people who rescued the O6 would have seen that all of the survivors were checked out, ESPECIALLY the woman who had given birth on an island under pretty primitive circumstances just a few weeks before. Naturally, they'd have learned that Kate had NOT given birth, and a DNA test would have confirmed this. I couldn't believe that BIG baby was supposed to be only 5 weeks old.

I'd *LOL* if the "missing two" (though I agree 3 makes more sense) were Nikki and Paolo... if somehow they became necessary to the show.

Well, judging from coverage of events in real life, the press would want interviews with the family members of the Oceanic 6 but I don't think they would interview the family members of all 384 passengers, some probably would be but Michael's mother might not be. Besides we don't yet know Michael's status in the future, is he in the world, on the island. But like I and others have said it doesn't matter who the other two people are because the entire story is a lie, it could be Charlie and Boone or Scott and jet engine guy from the pilot. But they definitely wouldn't say Michael and Walt that would blow their cover story for the reasons previously mentioned. And I think that they are lying to protect whoever is left behind on the island.



for sure, but for purposes of realism surely neighbours would notice Walt suddenly reappearing...I mean how can he go back to school?!

Not only must there have been 3 other people who initially made it to shore (versus 2), Jack also indicated that “other people” initially survived the crash in the water. He said something to the effect, “By the time we made it to shore (a day later), there were eight of us.” This implies other people may have been in the water, but drowned before they reached shore. Otherwise, why not say something like, “Eight of us survived and we made to shore a day later.” Since Aaron (even though he is one of the O6) was not yet born, this definitely implies 3 (not 2) other people made it to shore besides the five adults: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sun and Sayid.

For those of you stating that it doesn’t matter, etc., I think you’re really overlooking the significance of this. I don’t think the “big lie” just included 3 other people making it to shore for the heck of it, or just to make it “more believable,” etc. When it comes to stuff like this, the writers usually have a very good reason for it (whether we like the ultimate explanation, or not). Is it possible it leads nowhere? Of course- I’m still waiting for the answer as to why Libby was at Santa Rosa with Hurley. But, since they spent an entire season on the O6 theme, I would certainly hope they answer this question.

Also, here’s another problem with it…

I might be mistaken, but didn’t Jack say on the witness stand (in Eggtown) that Kate (who now, because of the “big lie,” was supposedly at least 6 months pregnant) saved him and all the others- getting them to shore? Pretty remarkable feat for a 6-month pregnant woman. While Sayid and Sun are pretty small, I would think Hurley would have given her quite the challenge.

.
For those of you stating that it doesn’t matter, etc., I think you’re really overlooking the significance of this. I don’t think the “big lie” just included 3 other people making it to shore for the heck of it, or just to make it “more believable,” etc. When it comes to stuff like this, the writers usually have a very good reason for it (whether we like the ultimate explanation, or not). I definately think that there is a specific reason to for saying there were originally 8 survivors. What I think is that "who are they" is not as relevant as to WHY they need to be mentioned. Some posts are throwing out names, but without a reason why these "extras" are mentioned the names really mean nothing.


I might be mistaken, but didn’t Jack say on the witness stand (in Eggtown) that Kate (who now, because of the “big lie,” was supposedly at least 6 months pregnant) saved him and all the others- getting them to shore? Pretty remarkable feat for a 6-month pregnant woman. While Sayid and Sun are pretty small, I would think Hurley would have given her quite the challenge.[/QUOTE]

Even more questionable is that Jack's testimony in Eggtown he says he was a passenger on Oceanic 815 which crashed on an Island in the South Pacific and then goes on to say that they landed in the water and then made it to shore.

The account is considerably different and sounds more like the crash we saw, location included.

This is being discussed on other threads if anyone is interested.

It doesn't matter because there were 30-40 other people that really survived, the 2-3 is a LIE.

The more productive question is...Why did the lie include saying that there were 2 other people who originally survived the crash?

The only thoughts I have are 1. Somewhere there is a hole in the lie, a part we haven't heard yet, and making up these extra people help fill it. 2. There are two survivors on the Island who need the extra protection of the O6 confirming to the world that they are dead.


I'm with you there. Part of me thinks that whoever the 2 "original" survivors are, Jack made a deal with both of them that if it was ever brought up, he would name those 2 individuals, meaning you would have all O6 confirming that those survivors were in fact "dead." I still think whoever they are, they want the rest of the world believing they're dead.

Wouldn't it be 3 others, not 2? They said that 8 survived the crash, but Aaron wasn't born yet, so at the time of the crash, there would have been 5 of the O6 (Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sun, and Sayid) ... so that would mean 3 more.I'm glad to see this question, and this point. It's absolutely correct. Aaron wasn't born at the time of the crash, ergo, there were three other people besides the Oceanic Six adults. It's a discrepancy that pops up in Jack's testimony earlier, and now at the press conference. And it is not an accident or ignored by TPTB.

I hinted in an earlier spoiler from that press conference scene that other names would be brought up, and they were brought up as a result of this discrepancy being noticed in the press. I was surprised it was cut from the scene, as well as a few other nuggets.

Of course, since it didn't make it to air, it's not canon, so who knows how helpful it'd be. I'll cover it, for what it's worth, on our podcast. ;)

I think maybe it was Boone, Shannon and Charlie.

I'm glad to see this question, and this point. It's absolutely correct. Aaron wasn't born at the time of the crash, ergo, there were three other people besides the Oceanic Six adults. It's a discrepancy that pops up in Jack's testimony earlier, and now at the press conference. And it is not an accident or ignored by TPTB.

I

I really don't think it's a discrepancy, since, in my memory, no one ever said there were two other survivors. All they ever said was that there were eight original survivors of the crash. The discrepancy between two and three is among all of the people posting to the boards, not on the show itself. People just assumed they meant two others because of the O6, without really thinking about it and realizing that there had to have been three other survivors, not two.

I hadn't even thought about that, but perhaps your wrong, technically Aaron would have survived the crash, in Kates womb. However you do make an interesting point. Either way I'm guessing it doesn't matter who the other 2 or 3 were and we'll probably never find out.Well technically using the logic that Aaron survived the crash in Kates Womb and thus is one of the crash survivors we must then consider that Sun said Jin died in the crash. That means her baby also survived the crash in her womb and would be the 8th survivor :rolleyes: . Sorry but counting Aaron as one of the 8 survivors does not make sense in my view. If you count in-the-womb Aaron as a crash survivor you should also count Sun's in the womb child as a crash survivor and as a rescued person. I think three people died, post crash, in their ficticious story.

Just to clarify. In "Eggtown" Jack says "Only 8 of us survived the crash and made it into the water." He also says "Ms. Austen tried to save the other 2 but..." he's then interrupted by Kate. So, make of that what you will.

What I meant was would the marshal's service give Kate a medical exam before getting her on the plane, you know as a part of protocol or law, I'm not sure on laws governing international extradition, that would be where the medical records would come from.
Why would they? What medical qualifications do US Marshals have? What legal right would the service have to force a medical procedure or examination on a suspect who hasn't been convicted of a crime? That would be highly unconstitutional, unless the suspect consented to it. I don't see Kate consenting.
And wouldn't the authorities give the six medical exams and wouldn't that exam indicate that Kate had never been pregnant?
Again, certainly not without their consent, and Kate would certainly not consent.

Why would they? What medical qualifications do US Marshals have? What legal right would the service have to force a medical procedure or examination on a suspect who hasn't been convicted of a crime? That would be highly unconstitutional, unless the suspect consented to it. I don't see Kate consenting.

Again, certainly not without their consent, and Kate would certainly not consent.
I didn't think people would take what I said literally, I didn't mean a U.S. Marshal would give her a medical exam, I meant the Marshal's service would have a doctor examine her. And as I said, I'm not sure what the protocol is on transferring prisoners, I assume that the authorities would want to make sure the prisoner was in good health before they move them. My point in saying that was that there would be physical evidence that Kate is lying, at six months women usually show that they are pregnant and if a picture of Kate exists just before or after her arrest that would show her not pregnant belly. After the initial rescue of the Oceanic 6 I'm certain they were given medical exams as authorities would want to examine people who had spent three months on a deserted island to make sure they were in good health, and a medical exam, would show Kate has never given birth. In addition to that, there are many medical exams a child gets in infancy and early childhood, a blood sample and comparison with a blood sample of Kate's would confirm whether or not they are mother and child. But someone could have fixed the medical records would show that Kate was pregnant pre crash, we still don't know the entire story behind the Oceanic 6's rescue. My bigger point in the original post was that evidence would exists(unless, as I stated someone fixed it) that would show that Kate was lying and wasn't pregnant and some inquisitive reporter could uncover if not the truth about the crash the fact that Aaron is not Kate's biological son and raise the question if he isn't your biological son then who's son is he where did he come from? And that would lead to the question are there any other survivors of Oceanic 815, which is something the Oceanic 6 either don't know or want to keep a secret, though I lean toward the latter.

I thought TPTB said it didn't matter who the other 2 were - they just decided it should be 2.

They did, and that's why we shouldn't dig too deep into that. Plus, as people said, it's a lie Jack made on the spot, so...

I wonder if they said 8 survived because they had to explain 2 bodies on the raft?.....

Except didn't Jack say that they were in the water for over a day immediately after the crash before the currents carried them to the island, by which time there were only six of them left?

Just to clarify. In "Eggtown" Jack says "Only 8 of us survived the crash and made it into the water." He also says "Ms. Austen tried to save the other 2 but..." he's then interrupted by Kate. So, make of that what you will.

Sun, interpreting the Korean reporter's question, "She asked if my husband was one of the people who died on the island." Sun never corrected the reporter to say the two (or three) who died did so on the raft or in the water immediately after the crash. This doesn't mesh well with the story Jack cooked up in the Eggtown trial. But don't expecty any reporters at the trial to notice this because....


And I do think it was very, very, odd that no one asked who the other original survivors were.


...The reporters are idiots! Who are the survivors who died should have been the next question from every reporter in that room. It does seem quite ridiculous that the next two reporters who followed the Korean reporter did not ask this question.

Scott and Steve :)

Don't you mean Steve and Scott? ;)

Well technically using the logic that Aaron survived the crash in Kates Womb and thus is one of the crash survivors we must then consider that Sun said Jin died in the crash. That means her baby also survived the crash in her womb and would be the 8th survivor :rolleyes: . Sorry but counting Aaron as one of the 8 survivors does not make sense in my view. If you count in-the-womb Aaron as a crash survivor you should also count Sun's in the womb child as a crash survivor and as a rescued person. I think three people died, post crash, in their ficticious story.

I agree with your logic and I’ll extend it one leg further…

If in-the-womb-Aaron is counted as one of the 8 original survivors that made it to shore, then wouldn’t in-the-womb-Sun’s baby make it the Oceanic 7 instead of 6?
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Why would they? What medical qualifications do US Marshals have? What legal right would the service have to force a medical procedure or examination on a suspect who hasn't been convicted of a crime? That would be highly unconstitutional, unless the suspect consented to it. I don't see Kate consenting.

Again, certainly not without their consent, and Kate would certainly not consent.

Kate most definitely would have been stripped down to her birthday suit in Australia, before getting on Flight #815. Not to check her over medically, but to make sure she wasn’t concealing any weapons, etc. According to some on other threads, while you might not be noticeably 6-months pregnant while clothed (still a stretch IMO, for someone Kate’s size), there’s no way you’re going to sell me on the fact that during a strip-search someone isn’t going to notice this. And, yes, the strip-search would have been done by a female cop, not the marshal from the plane (for those who were thinking of bringing that to my attention).

If Kate refused a medical exam for herself and “her” baby upon arrival to Hawaii or before they got on the Coast Guard plane (after being on a deserted island for 3 months) that would tend to raise huge red flags. Especially, when she is known to be a liar and fugitive on the run. Another huge problem with it all is she would have been taken into custody, either before that Coast Guard plane departed for Hawaii, or certainly when it landed.
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I didn't think people would take what I said literally, I didn't mean a U.S. Marshal would give her a medical exam, I meant the Marshal's service would have a doctor examine her. And as I said, I'm not sure what the protocol is on transferring prisoners, I assume that the authorities would want to make sure the prisoner was in good health before they move them. My point in saying that was that there would be physical evidence that Kate is lying, at six months women usually show that they are pregnant and if a picture of Kate exists just before or after her arrest that would show her not pregnant belly. After the initial rescue of the Oceanic 6 I'm certain they were given medical exams as authorities would want to examine people who had spent three months on a deserted island to make sure they were in good health, and a medical exam, would show Kate has never given birth. In addition to that, there are many medical exams a child gets in infancy and early childhood, a blood sample and comparison with a blood sample of Kate's would confirm whether or not they are mother and child. But someone could have fixed the medical records would show that Kate was pregnant pre crash, we still don't know the entire story behind the Oceanic 6's rescue. My bigger point in the original post was that evidence would exists(unless, as I stated someone fixed it) that would show that Kate was lying and wasn't pregnant and some inquisitive reporter could uncover if not the truth about the crash the fact that Aaron is not Kate's biological son and raise the question if he isn't your biological son then who's son is he where did he come from? And that would lead to the question are there any other survivors of Oceanic 815, which is something the Oceanic 6 either don't know or want to keep a secret, though I lean toward the latter.

Regarding DNA, etc. during a medical exam, there would be no reason to be running DNA analysis at this point, but I agree with most of the rest of your post.

The reporters were a joke. Any reporter worth a damn would have picked up the scent of the lie and kept hammering her in the press conference and they certainly would have uncovered the lie before the circus of a trial they offered us in Eggtown. This is one of several reasons I believe they should have avoided the entire press conference scene, altogether. When you already have a weak and contrived part of your overall story (Kate having Aaron), you shouldn’t draw further attention to it with a scene like this.

I agree with your logic and I’ll extend it one leg further…

If in-the-womb-Aaron is counted as one of the 8 original survivors that made it to shore, then wouldn’t in-the-womb-Sun’s baby make it the Oceanic 7 instead of 6?
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Kate most definitely would have been stripped down to her birthday suit in Australia, before getting on Flight #815. Not to check her over medically, but to make sure she wasn’t concealing any weapons, etc. According to some on other threads, while you might not be noticeably 6-months pregnant while clothed (still a stretch IMO, for someone Kate’s size), there’s no way you’re going to sell me on the fact that during a strip-search someone isn’t going to notice this. And, yes, the strip-search would have been done by a female cop, not the marshal from the plane (for those who were thinking of bringing that to my attention).

If Kate refused a medical exam for herself and “her” baby upon arrival to Hawaii or before they got on the Coast Guard plane (after being on a deserted island for 3 months) that would tend to raise huge red flags. Especially, when she is known to be a liar and fugitive on the run. Another huge problem with it all is she would have been taken into custody, either before that Coast Guard plane departed for Hawaii, or certainly when it landed.
100%


Regarding DNA, etc. during a medical exam, there would be no reason to be running DNA analysis at this point, but I agree with most of the rest of your post.

The reporters were a joke. Any reporter worth a damn would have picked up the scent of the lie and kept hammering her in the press conference and they certainly would have uncovered the lie before the circus of a trial they offered us in Eggtown. This is one of several reasons I believe they should have avoided the entire press conference scene, altogether. When you already have a weak and contrived part of your overall story (Kate having Aaron), you shouldn’t draw further attention to it with a scene like this.
What I meant was during a medical exam they would have taken a blood sample from Aaron and Kate, as a matter of routine. No they wouldn't have run DNA tests then, but if the subject of Aaron's paternity came up, the blood samples would be on file, in storage whatever hospitals do and then they could be compared for paternity.

I agree with your logic and I’ll extend it one leg further…

If in-the-womb-Aaron is counted as one of the 8 original survivors that made it to shore, then wouldn’t in-the-womb-Sun’s baby make it the Oceanic 7 instead of 6?Thanks for agreeing with my logic that if 2 pregnant women survived you would not count one of them as 2 people and the other one as a single person. "The "crash surviving 8" were counted by the Lostees or by Jack while the "Oceanic 6" were counted by the press. I don't think we can argue that the press has to use the same counting procedure as Jack.

Anyway we count there is at least one supposedly live person unaccounted for. Jack said 8 survived but 2 died so since the Oceanic 6 includes Aaron in the count and Jack's 8 less 2 = 6 did not, there is still one person (let's call him/her passenger 007) unaccounted for. Wonder why the press is not curious about that person?

JACK: Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other two, but they didn't--This is kind of a screw up on Jack's part. The excerpt above is from the trial. Two most definitely died, leaving Sayid, Hurley, Jack, Kate and Sun. Jack's counting Kate as two people which doesn't seem right to me. Maybe people talk like that, but I, just as a matter of course, wouldn't have counted that group of survivors in the water as a group of 6.

So if it's true that Jack said there were eight original survivors, and specifically mentioned two that Kate tried to save, and the press were told that Kate gave birth on the island, then the press should have been all over that one. Can no one in the press corps count?

This is driving me crazy. Glaring discrepancies all over the place.

I would think it would come from the group they know (witnessed) are dead. Possibly Libby (special to Hurley), Shannon (special to Sayid) and Charlie (sacrificed himself for them all).

Yes, the whole "8 survived but 2 died" story is very confusing. I first thought they came up with this lie because people could actually prove that there were 2 bodies, but how could they when they can't find the Island? So did they (whoever is behind the lie)actually "plant" 2 bodies on this other island that the O6 were supposedly on? There must be some reason for this specific lie, because it doesn't really make their story that much more believable, there are already huge holes, plus now the family members of the "2 who died" are gonna want to know details.

As for the 2 versus 3 argument, that's a confusing one too. Maybe it's just because Jack and the rest of the O6 just got so use to Aaron being part of the O6, he's automatically included as one of the 8 who made it to the Island. Not that they are including him because he was supposedly "in the womb" but he's included just because he's "one of us", even though he wasn't physically there.

Trying to include Sun's baby is a little more problematic though, since she's not very far along, they could easily say they didn't realize she was pregnant at that time. Sun could easily pretend she finds out she's pregnant once they get back to the civilization. After all, are the reporters gonna question her when they wouldn't expect the survivors to have pregnancy tests?;)

There is a podcast up on the front page at Dark UFO. Apparently there were scenes cut from the press conference and one of those scenes was Jack mentioning the names of the others who survived. I have no idea of the validity or if this is considered spoilery or if maybe it'll be included in the rerun with extras the night of the finale, but here are the names Jack listed in that cut scene:


Jack mentions Charlie Pace, Boone Carlyle and Libby as three initial survivors who ultimately perished, adding that Libby suffered a head injury and memory loss that prevented everyone from learning her surname.

It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread argue that "it's all a lie so it doesn't really matter 'who' the other 2 (or 3) survivors where"

This is the same group of people that can analyze for days ... weeks .... months over the color of a t-shirt or the way the light falls in the jungle. The same people that assume that almost everything done on the show is purposeful.

Yet the fact that the writers decided to have 2 (or 3) more survivors from the crash is unimportant???

I have to disagree ... I have no idea who the other survivors will be but I guarantee it is important.

TPTB said it was unimportant - that's why so many people say it's unimportant.

They did? Was this in a podcast or something?

Yes they said it in a recent podcast, can't remember the actual date of the podcast.The spoiler is interesting, specifically the head injury to Libby, do we actually know her last name, could it be Widmore?:eek2: the spoiler relates to the above spoiler.

.....

Is this an abc podcast or that Ryan Hawaii blog thing?

I believe it is significant they mentioned eight initial survivors made it to the island. Don't think they would have mentioned it if it wasn't important.

Locke would not be one of the 'initial' survivors. He would have been paralyzed, and completely unable to get out of his seat, and out of the aircraft. He certainly could not have swam to a raft. Add to the fact there is a certain amount of animosity between Jack and Locke, and it wouldn't make sense to mention him.

My guess is that the 'initial survivors' will relate to things the O6 need to take care of off island. I believe, then, it is safe to assume Sawyer would be one of these. Kate has business relating to Sawyer, something she promised him. If this was to involve some sort of atonement or anything of that nature, she would have to tell people he had fessed up to her before he 'died' and they were rescued.

My second guess would be Charlie. Why? Hurley. Charlie was Hurley's best friend, and I can see him wanting to talk to Charlie's brother, or something like that.

Now, if we are to assume there is a third, as Aaron would not count.... hmmm... Maybe Libby?

Perhaps Jack mentioned there being other survivors who died so, for one thing, Jin could be one of them thereby providing an explanation of how Sun got pregnant during her time on the island. That is why Jack was taken aback when Sun, apparently not catching on to why Jack came up with "dead survivors" story, basically shot down that explanation before it could even be used by saying Jin had died on the plane.

As was demonstrted by the tests on Sun that Juliet had performed, doctors can pretty accurately determine about when a pregnancy had started. Will Sun have to then come up with a story that Jack, Hurley, Sayid or a male survivor who died on the Island is the father of her child? Or will she just protest any tests determining the pregnancy starting date as inaccurate?

As for one of the other "dead survivors", somewhere else on this board (I beleive it was on this thread -- I'll look for it) someone had mentioned that Kate will need a purported father for Aaron who can't then actually come forward. Having him as one of the dead survivors solves this potential problem. I'm guessing she'll say that her and Sawyer (blonde haired, like Aaron) had a fling 10 months ago back in the U.S. and it was a coincidence they were on the same plane.

Another potential reason for the need for a "dead survivors" story is if Jack knows he'll be medically examined (perhaps one demanded by Oceanic's lawsuit insurance company) where then his appendix operation scars will be discovered. I don't know who Jack will say did that operation. Bernard the dentist? Arnst the science teacher? Someone else? "Gonna have to think this one over.

I wonder if Sun is just saying Jin died to have an excuse to go after her father. This wouldn't alarm her father, I don't think, given that her dad already knew about her and Jae Lee!

The thing I don't get about saying that 2 (or 3) people died on the island, is that the families of those 2 (or 3) people are going to want to go there and recover there remains.

I believe it was Joseph Goebbels that said “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"

The addition of two extra people, although it make the lie more complex only helps to make it more believable. Although it might be interesting to know who they decide are the extra two, it's unimportant because it's only relevant in making the lie believable.

According to the latest podcast from Darlton.....


they are going to include the press conference footage where Jack names those that didn't make it when they rerun Part 1 prior to the finale so you'll have your question about who the other 2 survivors were answered. :)

Perhaps Jack mentioned there being other survivors who died so, for one thing, Jin could be one of them thereby providing an explanation of how Sun got pregnant during her time on the island. That is why Jack was taken aback when Sun, apparently not catching on to why Jack came up with "dead survivors" story, basically shot down that explanation before it could even be used by saying Jin had died on the plane.

As was demonstrted by the tests on Sun that Juliet had performed, doctors can pretty accurately determine about when a pregnancy had started. Will Sun have to then come up with a story that Jack, Hurley, Sayid or a male survivor who died on the Island is the father of her child? Or will she just protest any tests determining the pregnancy starting date as inaccurate?

As for one of the other "dead survivors", somewhere else on this board (I beleive it was on this thread -- I'll look for it) someone had mentioned that Kate will need a purported father for Aaron who can't then actually come forward. Having him as one of the dead survivors solves this potential problem. I'm guessing she'll say that her and Sawyer (blonde haired, like Aaron) had a fling 10 months ago back in the U.S. and it was a coincidence they were on the same plane.

Another potential reason for the need for a "dead survivors" story is if Jack knows he'll be medically examined (perhaps one demanded by Oceanic's lawsuit insurance company) where then his appendix operation scars will be discovered. I don't know who Jack will say did that operation. Bernard the dentist? Arnst the science teacher? Someone else? "Gonna have to think this one over.

I think you’re misreading a few things and/or reading too much into other things, here.

I think Jack’s “look” at the joke of a press conference was just him being concerned that Sun would not go along with the lie, or not remember her part in the lie. I think the true length of Sun’s pregnancy will either be ignored, or will be explained with an equally lame answer, like Kate’s “pregnancy.”

People on this thread who keep bringing up the difference in hair color (between Kate and Aaron) need to let that one go. No matter who the father supposedly is (in the lie), Aaron’s hair could still be blond. Babies and toddlers often start with lighter hair, even white-blond, and then it gets darker as they grow older. Take my sister-in-law and her husband: she’s half-Greek and he’s half-Italian, both with dark-dark brown/black hair and their baby is really light blonde, just like the father was when he was a baby (and just like the grandma is).

I don’t believe Oceanic would demand a physical examination of Jack. Why would they? Perhaps a DNA analysis to prove he is, in fact, who he says he is, but a physical (by Oceanic’s doctors/insurance company)? I don’t see that, at all.

I really think we just have nowhere near the information to make an intelligent guess (as to who the 3 others were), at this point. To answer, “Why 3 others that didn’t make it?” we have to know, “Why the lie, in the first place?” as well as “Who’s responsible for the lie?” At this point, it could really be anyone (since it is just a lie). But, unlike some others, I ultimately think “who they are” will be significant. If in the end it is unimportant, well, that will just be another strike against TPTB.