Of the many, many, many disturbing things about this very dense episode, I think the one that bothered me the most was Jack's cruelty and unprofessionalism in his dealings with Sawyer's headache issue.

He began the appointment by asking a series of increasingly more intrusive and irrelevant questions about Sawyer's sexual habits WHILE KATE WAS SNICKERING IN THE BACKGROUND. (Ever heard of patient confidentiality, Doc?) Sawyer eventually caught on and stormed off, as well he should have.

Later, when Jack gave Sawyer his diagnosis, he deliberately used the scientific term first, and clearly enjoyed letting Sawyer dangle as he waited to hear if he indeed had a serious problem. You know, I also had an uncle who died of a brain tumor, too. Maybe that's why I fail to see the humor of the situation. Sawyer had taken the risk of opening up to Jack with a worry that was clearly gnawing at him. He received very shabby treatment in return.

I wouldn't want Jack as my doctor unless I was stranded on a desert island and he was the last doctor on earth!

Are you kidding me?

Sawyer is an A**! I don't blame jack for jerking him around after all the things he has done.

Pfft. Professional doctors aren't as funny. This was just Jack treating Sawyer the same way the guy's been treating him this entire time. I love both of them, but it was great to see Sawyer get jerked around a bit. He didn't have a brain tumor or anything, anyway; I think Jack probably knew that from the start.

Jack has really been bugging me lately, and in tonight's episode he went way too far.
Stack that on top of the torture from the earlier episode and his "holier than thou" attitude and it makes me

hope that somehow he will be the one to die and not Boone.

Although that does not seem very likely.
I haven't been a big fan of Boone in the past, but now I am really starting to like him.

this all happens just when it looks like Boone really IS going to be the one to die.

Sure, if you want to be on Jack's side because you think he's hot, I will not debate you there. *I don't think so, but we all have different tastes. *I think Jack is a selfish jerk, and I don't think anyone could convince me otherwise. *I would really like to see some redeemable qualities come from him, but I am not seeing any. *It seems that anytime he's done something good for someone it has been for an ulterior motive. *He even said so tonight, "I didn't do it for him." He did it for Kate. Why? He wants in her pants, of course. Jack is NOT a good person.

And I really don't like the fact that I don't like one of the main characters.

i like jack but he should be hauled in front of the AMA for multiple infractions. I didn't like Kate being there either...he should have asked her to leave.

Well I think it was funny...and as much as I love Sawyer, I don't mind seeing him get jerked around. It's only a show so I wasn't really thinking in terms of doctor patient confidentiality...BUT I agree that those questions were really invasive and in the real world it would be COMPLETELY inappropriate!

I have accused Jack of holier than thou attitude before...but I didn't mind him in this episode, 'cause he lightened up!

You guys are citing the same reasons for disliking Jack that are also used to bash Sawyer. 'Selfish jerk,' only having fans because he's hot? Puh-lease. Sawyer's been just as annoying in life-or-death situations (hello, Confidence Man?), but we all love him for it, right? Give the guy a break. I'm growing quite tired of Jack vs. Sawyer debates; to me, their conflict is what makes them interesting.

The very wording of this thread makes little sense because Jack has no obligation at all to be professional. Remember he isn't being paid to be be a doctor on the island he is doing it because he is the best person for the job. Whats next if Jack screws up on Boone then Shannon sues him for malpractice. Remember he isn't working in a hospital, he isn't working at all he is just the closest thing they have to a doctor on a remote island.

I agree with Hallie and tvlover ;D Jack is hardly a selfish jerk, because like tvlover said, he has no obligation to be the doctor at all. If he was selfish, he would have chosen not to look at Sawyer, yet alone approach him first. I truly believe that the Jack lovers appreciate Jack, not because he is hot, but because of his layers and depth. I don't think it's fair to criticize Jack for "playing with Sawyer" when he didn't have to treat him at all. I found the scene quite humorous but thought to myself, there is definitely going to be some criticizing here, because those that hate Jack are going to say exactly what you did lostmymarbles. This thread frankly doesn't surprise me.

people, it's a tv show... it isn't supposed to be real... if you want to look at unprofessionalism, watch House... then tell me you wouldn't want Jack for your doc instead of that guy

I think his selfishness shows, because he helped Sawyer in order to endear himself to Kate. *Not to make Sawyer's headaches go away.

how was he selfish? up until the last point where he was kidding around, he was very professional... and i think even sawyer appreciated how he messed with him... didn't seem to have a problem with jack, when he was trying on glasses...

Why would he graceously want to help Sawyer after all that he has done? I think him helping Sawyer at all was great :). And he didn't JUST do it for Kate. I think he showed in that episode more than once that he does care about people, even people like Sawyer. Towards the end of the glasses scene, he put his hand on Sawyer's shoulder and said you're welcome. He knew Sawyer wasn't going to say thank you, which he should have, but he told him you're welcome and was sincere.

I don't think Jack was being selfish. Sawyer would have done the exact same if he were in Jack's position. Anyway, I don't think Jack did it to gain Kate's romantic attentions per say, but because he likes her (in whatever manner) and was willing to do a favor for her.

i mean in any event, jack saw how serious the headaches were affecting sawyer when he walked past him on the beach... as a doctor, he genuinely wanted to see what was up

Yeah...I wouldn't really say that Jack was selfish...I DO think that he helped Sawyer in large part because he wanted
Kate to think highly of him though...but I wouldn't expect him to feel overly charitable towards Saywer anyway.

think highly of him? that's maybe what he said in the end to be more endearing to her, but at the core, he said that he wouldn't have helped unless sawyer told him it was really a problem... hence him telling kate that you know what would happen-- getting a new nickname, etc... he's a doctor... why WOULDN'T he have helped? to spite sawyer? i don't think he would have...

I concur with Solid and Sky ;D I think Sawyer does respect Jack, because he actually was being nice when Jack gave him the glasses to try on. As far as him doing a favor for Kate, I agree that that is probably what he was doing. I don't think he wants to "get in her pants" as someone mentioned, but because he does have feelings for her and he wanted her to know that.

I disliked Jack alot at the beginning of the season but I liked him in this episode! Stick up the butt characters aren't fun, everyone needs to joke around a little more. I loved the Jack/Sawyer scenes and hope we get to see Sawyer in those not so 8) glasses soon lol.

way before Jack even got to joking around with Sawyer, he had come to him & offered him assistance which Sawyer started to engage in making remarks, likely because he didn't want to show his vulnerability & need for Jack's assistance...Even after that Jack came back & continued to converse w/him to help him figure out what was wrong...He did the exam, & did show concern. After he got the info he needed, he did toy a bit but Sawyer has done that often enough with many..As everyone said Jack isn't getting paid for being a doctor here-he rarely even gets a thank you. And how many times has he put his life in danger to save someone elses?

He came down to the beach with a box of glasses & sat there testing them w/Sawyer...He even knew Sawyer was uncomfortable w/the idea of being helped & didn't expect him to say thank you.

Jack often gets criticized first for being too good, & then when he shows flaws & does something Sawyer-esque, the very same things Sawyer is endeared for, he gets labeled unprofessional or a jerk :-\ ..... He pinched off Sawyer's artery with his fingers even after Sawyer said he'd watch him die..as well as came down to the beach again to change his bandages.

Jack helped Sawyer because Kate asked him too yes. It's doing something for someone you care about but obviously if Jack didn't care Sawyer was hurting, he wouldn't have made the effort in the firstplace when he saw he was having trouble. Sawyer has done enough things such as say he & Kate made out in front of Jack to make him upset. So Jack as was said, lol didn't have a stick up his butt & joked around.

I also like Jack for a great deal more than just his looks...And I really enjoyed both Jack & Sawyer tonight.

yeah, the way they interacted tonight was choice... jack played sawyer's game and he played it skillfully, i might add... hope to see more of that and not the serious jack in the future

I was impressed by Jack's ability to play Sawyer's game...lol

And I do understand that he helped Sawyer because ultimately he knew it was the right thing to do...but
for him to say to Kate "I didn't do it for him"...whether he was kidding or not... irks me, if only because he has had every
chance in the world to show Kate he likes her..and he doesn't. Then he makes vague comments like that...annoying..

Banshee, that was perfect. Excellent post. You are my mentor :laugh:

have you all every worked with doctors? i have. and Jack is very typical of that persona of surgeons.

remember that surgeons often dont have to deal with awake patients. they are abrubt, to the point,
and often quite self absorbed. they have to be in order to be surgeons. surgeons have to be self reliant
and sure of themselves.

while he was having "fun" at Sawyer's expense, he was doing what he knew to be the right thing
as far as his diagnosis. i was just glad that Sawyer didnt have syphillus. :lol2:


yeah i have been in the medical field too long. ::)

I'm not too keen on the notion that it's okay for doctors to behave differently/ less professionally towards patients they dislike, but I suppose he did help him in the end, so I'll give him that. *

I'm not too keen on the notion that it's okay for doctors to behave differently/ less professionally towards patients they dislike, but I suppose he did help him in the end, so I'll give him that.


oh i agree completely.
i am not saying that it is okay, i am just saying that it happens and surgeons are sometimes the worst offenders. ;)

Oh, come on. LOL Jack may not have been trying to get into Kate's pants, but he surely was trying to keep Kate out of Sawyer's. :D "Look! Look who else has been there! Look WHAT else has been there! STAY AWAY!"

He actually wasn't boring, today. I like that. Usually Jack is not very interesting to me... but at least he's human under there. And snarky, too.

-Bree

Gosh I'm sorry halfrek -- I wasn't commenting on your post, just commenting in general. *I agree completely about surgeons. * And I do keep forgetting that Jack is one. *

Cut the Doc some slack. Whenever they tease Sawyer it shows they are accepting him as part of the crew. They are relating to him on terms he's familiar with.

Maybe they can start an AMA review board on the island. :laugh: I think Jack should not have treated Sawyer being that he had no insurance. So he was actually doing him a favor under the table. I mean in cavetown they probably have free health care but on the beach you have to pay. There's not much I can say of importance really being that I find Jack hot (Sawyer too, and Sayid and Hurley and Jin). Basically, Sawyer knew Jack would help him. Jack helped him. And Sayid looked really hot. And that is all that matters. This wasn't about Jack and professionalism, all these incidents are about Jack and Sawyer and how they relate to each other. And how hot Jack and Sawyer are. :)

ETA: *Wow I tried t post this and 16 posts were posted in the interval! *LOL!

He didn't "need" to endear himself to Kate. *He said he didn't do it for Sawyer yet when did he go over there? *He saw how uncomfortable Sawyer was, you could even see the thoughts going through his head "I'm probably going to regret this, he's going to give me lip as usual" but he did it anyway. *I think he was giving Kate credit where it was due, which is to say, she told him about it, she opened his eyes to it and so he walked over when otherwise if he saw Sawyer doing that he would have just figured "well if he wants help he'll come to me and get it". *Even in "real life" doctors generally don't go to the general public, who are not their patients and say "Hey you look like you've got a headache, let me examine you". *

It was Jack's way of saying he really cares about her and about her opinion. *Not to "try and get in her pants" but Jack's not the sort who is just going to come out and say "I really care about you alot" so it was his way of saying that to her. *And it was obvious she took it that way as well. *It may be "annoying" but that's real life, lots of people have a hard time just saying "Hey I'm nuts about you". * I don't see how it is any more annoying than Sawyer's lewd comments to her that he has made on occassion.

He was giving Sawyer a little bit of a taste of his own medicine. *He's been trying since the start of the show to try and make Jack look bad, in situations sometimes more serious than this one was. *I think as soon as Jack did the exam he knew it was most likely not anything serious, and it was only then that he started getting a little back. *

What Jack did wasn't devisive, it didn't make Sawyer look bad(certainly better than being cranky and telling people to stop the racket). *Sawyer got help he needed and it was probably not bad for his "standing" in the group, in fact it made him more part of it at least for a little while. *Sayid helped fix up a pair of glasses for him, Kate and Hurley got to be his fashion critics, he was actually center of attention for a little while and it wasn't for a bad reason. * So it wasn't harmful to Sawyer or anyone else.

Personally I wish we'd get to see MORE of Jack and Sawyer interacting with each other like this instead of just "hating" each other or being at each other's throats. *I'd love to see more of this(and Sawyer can get his jokes at Jack's expense as well, tit for tat) between them. *It was fun and it was interesting.

Cut the Doc some slack. Whenever they tease Sawyer it shows they are accepting him as part of the crew. They are relating to him on terms he's familiar with.

notfadeaway, , actually that is what I wanted to say(re comment about everyone sort of "chipping in") and you said it much better and more succinctly.

I was impressed by Jack's ability to play Sawyer's game...lol

And I do understand that he helped Sawyer because ultimately he knew it was the right thing to do...but
for him to say to Kate "I didn't do it for him"...whether he was kidding or not... irks me, if only because he has had every
chance in the world to show Kate he likes her..and he doesn't. Then he makes vague comments like that...annoying..


Queen actually for Jack, that comment wasn't vague at all. It was a huge admission of his feelings for her by coming out & saying that. And she knew it. It was Jack speak *:laugh: which typically is very subtle.

This isn't a professional setting....The island isn't a hospital but Jack is on call 24/7 & mostly because he choses to help not because he can be sued if he doesn't. He never has personal time because he's expected to be "doctor" Jack instead of just Jack the man who makes mistakes. He helps ppl because it's who he is, he does favors for friends he cares about because it's also who he is...However, he deserves some days where he doesn't have to be straight in line.

I found it be good comic relief.

I love my Sawyer, but he deserved it. :lol2:

Can someone PLEASE tell me what was wrong with Sawyer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* ???
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease

I'm dying out of curiosity, and naturally ABS havn't updated their homepage ....

Oh, and another thing, regarding docs and when/why they help people. The actually takes an oath, I'm not sure what it says exactely, but it's in the lines of helping those who need etc, I does however NOT say anything about only helping those with insurance and in their practice on daytime.
And halfrek, I couldn't agree more on your surgeon conclusions !

bansh, I so agree that was a HUGE admission for Jack. *That was practically the equivalent of "How do I love thee, let me count the ways..." *in Jack speak. *LOL! *If only Locke could have run a little slower we might have gotten a kiss, dang!(poor Boone, I do wonder if they are going to trick us though and make it seem like Boone and then have Charlie find some heroin and die of a drug overdose--you know then if Claire's baby's a boy she can name him Charlie--circle of life and all that--however they keep saying Dom is safe so probably not)

I hope someday Jack and Sawyer do become friends, you know the sort of friends who are snarky and competitive with each other but friends none-the-less. *They have great chemistry for that. *They were both great tonight.

Kristina Sawyer was suffering from eyestrain and actually Jack didn't seem to have any trouble treating him, he was reluctant when Kate came to him because as he said, Sawyer would just give him a one-liner(and if he was really lucky a new nickname) but when he saw Sawyer suffering he did go help(and promptly got a couple of one-liners but Sawyer was concerned enough that he called Jack back).

Then when he examined him and realized it wasn't anything really serious, he had bit of fun at his expense but ultimately it worked out for everyone.* Sawyer got some reading glasses, a little group of people helped him out(well admittedly some of them were just fashion critics :) ) and it was actually really nice, considering that dark times are probably to come, it was possibly one of the last times we'll see any fun for a good long time.

I found it be good comic relief.

I love my Sawyer, but he deserved it. :lol2:


Totally agree. Those scenes were delightful from every angle. Sawyer's performance was particularly good...that moment when he warily sniffed the air. :)

But yeah, he deserved it.

The real creep of this episode was obsessed-if-not-totally-psychotic Locke -- ordering the not-too-bright Boone to climb a cliff without a rope (and we know they can make ropes of those vines), lying to Jack about the accident (not to mention the little detail of a plane with a working radio and contact with the outside world!!), and abandoning the severely injured Boone to return to beating his sicko head against the hatch.

I've never trusted Locke, as I've posted here many times. Now I really despise the guy.

Templeton

Did Locke know about the radio?

I thought it was hilarious.*

And I think Sawyer himself ultimately would appreciate that kind of humor.

Besides, Jack may have insinuated he did it for Kate, but did you see the look on his face when he saw Sawyer suffering?* And it was Sawyer who turned him down.* And don't forget, Jack actually patted him on the back after he got his new glasses.* That wasn't a gesture you would expect from someone being hurtful.

It was Jack speak which typically is very subtle.
Yep bansh. He was checking her out and she knew it. ;)

I was soo kidding about the insurance thing. This episode has me in a sad yet joking mood.

Jack often gets criticized first for being too good, & then when he shows flaws & does something Sawyer-esque, the very same things Sawyer is endeared for, he gets labeled unprofessional or a jerk* :-\ ..... He pinched off Sawyer's artery with his fingers even after Sawyer said he'd watch him die..as well as came down to the beach again to change his bandages.


Well let's not forget that Jack was partly responsible for Sawyer getting stabbed in the first place. He may not have held the knife, but he tied him to a tree and let Sayid get all riled up torturing him. So I wouldn't exactly say he going above and beyond by keeping him from dying! *;). And Sawyer's comment to Jack about 'watching him die' was pure posturing. At that moment he wanted to egg Jack on and get him to let go of the wound because he was full of self loathing and on some level he wanted to die in that instant. He would never actually have watched Jack die. If the first time he stood in front of the man he thought destroyed his life and could only hold a shaking gun and then run off...I doubt he'd really watch a man he barely knew bleed to death just because he found him little annoying.

That's just one point I felt I needed to contend with.

Yawwwn...


Good grief, people. Lighten up! I'm not talking to those of you that are already lightened (light in the loafers? what's the correct term?).

It was brilliant storytelling, pure and simple. And on a character level, Jack was able to make his biggest rival damage his own reputation (in Kate's eyes, anyway).

It was hilarious and something I'm sure that Sawyer probably ended up respecting (in some twisted sort of way). Michael may be learning to speak Korean, but Jack is learning to speak Sawyerese.

DP

Actually twice, because there was the Shrimp guy and then there was the Marshal(for different reasons but still). *At this point I think Sawyer would be reluctant to just watch anyone die if he was just annoying to him. *But I don't think that is what effected Jack during CM artery scene anyway nor oddly even the "making out" remark; it was when Sawyer started going on about him playing hero again that got Jack. *Look at his face at that moment in the scene in Confidence Man--that was a daddy issue coming out of Sawyer's mouth. :) *That remark got the biggest reaction from Jack, more than the "I'd watch you die" or the making out with Kate comment.

I'm just sad this was probably the last we'll see this type of interaction from them for a good long time, probably next season if we're lucky. *I think it actually makes everything that is going to happen all the more effecting(or at least all the stuff we may not know the details of but imagine is going to be quite big and serious), we got this little glimpse of island bonding, of people who were formerly at each other's throats working together(Michael and Jin as well), looking like things could actually be looking up and then tragedy strikes and it's probably going to be all downhill from here.

Well let's not forget that Jack was partly responsible for Sawyer getting stabbed in the first place. He may not have held the knife, but he tied him to a tree and let Sayid get all riled up torturing him. So I wouldn't exactly say he going above and beyond by keeping him from dying! *;). And Sawyer's comment to Jack about 'watching him die' was pure posturing. At that moment he wanted to egg Jack on and get him to let go of the wound because he was full of self loathing and on some level he wanted to die in that instant. He would never actually have watched Jack die. If the first time he stood in front of the man he thought destroyed his life and could only hold a shaking gun and then run off...I doubt he'd really watch a man he barely knew bleed to death just because he found him little annoying.

That's just one point I felt I needed to contend with.


I wouldn't agree there ;) Sayid stabbed Sawyer all his own....Jack tried to stop him from going after him. He could have said forget you & let go when Sawyer said he'd watch him die so Jack wasn't helping him because he felt responsible for stabbing him.

I wasn't saying I thought Sawyer would watch Jack die, I don't think he would...I was just pointing out the make out comment because folks were bothered Jack had brought up the STD thing lol in order to make Sawyer look bad in front of Kate...Sawyer made Jack feel bad in front of Kate w.the make out comment.

I actually really enjoyed Sawyer & his vulnerability tonight as well as Jack's less serious side.....I agree dark-tonight was brillant-Sawyerese *:lol2:

At the beginning of the season I really disliked Jack and I still am not a huge fan but the more that there are episodes like this, where Jack seems like a regular guy who has a sense of humor and all, the more I begin to move towards liking him. I'm a big Sawyer fan and a lot of what I like about Sawyer is his edge, he isn't a bad guy, he just is a bit of a rascal or a guy that has been through so much that he uses humor and insults as a way to guard himself and build walls to not allow himself to be vulnerable to anyone. I think that the writers are starting to introduce a bit of an edge (probably not the same type of edge as Sawyer) in Jack. I think that Sawyer and Jack are actually similar in many ways (other than the fact that they are both easy on the eyes * ;) ) but we have yet to see much of this but are getting glimpses. I didn't find Jack's actions really unprofessional at all, and if they were I think it made me like Jack more and made me enjoy the episode more. I think by being on an island, most rules and codes that doctors abide by can be disregarded. Instead I think Jack helps people because of his own moral code and because he is a genuinely good person.

Sawyers insurance ran out, Jack did it out of the kindness of his heart. :lol2:

I wouldn't agree there ;) Sayid stabbed Sawyer all his own....Jack tried to stop him from going after him. He could have said forget you & let go when Sawyer said he'd watch him die so Jack wasn't helping him because he felt responsible for stabbing him.


Sayid physically stabbed Sawyer on his own...but it would never have happened if Sawyer hadn't been tied up and tortured. for one thing he barely got to defend himself by getting untied...and in the first place, as I mentioned before, the torture (which Jack OK'd after Sayid basically asked him for permission to do it) brought out Sayid's darker side. Jack played a big part in what happened as a result...and I think even HE knows that.

bullwinkle, as well as for a lot of folks partial to Sawyer here tonight, I appreciate your objectivity towards Jack in this ep *:)

ah well Queen-agree to diagree on the stab thing ;) It's a shoulda woulda coulda scenario because Sayid made his own conscious choice to go after Sawyer again. Jack being responsible for having a role in the torture, absolutely. Giving Jack culpability for Sayid stabbing him just because he was part of the intial set up of the situation, I think relinquishes Sayid's responsibility for his choice.

I admittedly truly enjoyed Sawyer & got a little closer to warming up more to him...I don't dislike him per se in the first place, I'm not as partial to him as others, but he's still in my top as the best characters. It was very refreshing to see him so vulnerable but still Sawyer in him being afraid to show that vulnerability. As J/S do w/each other. What great interaction tonight. It was even kinda sweet.

I thought that scene was brilliant, and I am a Sawyer fan. (I adore Sawyer and I like Jack) but I love the fact that Jack was able to give Sawyer a little taste of his own "medicine" *:laugh: Wonderful moment. One of my all time favorite scenes.

Michael may be learning to speak Korean, but Jack is learning to speak Sawyerese. *
- DP

Best observation I've heard all night!

Now what Jack did was hilarious, but remember, doing that put him on the same level as Sawyer (I refuse to define those levels as higher or lower), so we can't claim Jack takes the higher ground all the time and is therefore somehow "better" than Sawyer.

And you can't argue that Jack was justified or that Sawyer deserved it without acknowledging that Jack was taking an eye for an eye, a philosophy usually associated with Sawyer.

The writers and the actors themselves have been saying that Jack needs to be more like Sawyer and vice versa, so this is probably an example of that.

I felt bad for Sawyer when he stormed out -- his feeling were hurt ( :-* ), but he clearly didn't hold a grudge.

I posted this in another thread but it fits here as well. ;D

Recycled post:

===

I thought the Jack/Sawyer scene was very funny.

Jack was totally giving Sawyer his own medicine and it was all done in fun. Sawyer knew exactly what Jack got out of him when Jack told him he had hypo-whatever and then explained it was far-sightedness. That is quite a leap from the questions he asked him earlier and Sawyer is no fool. I saw it more like a prank a brother or buddy would play on someone rather than mean-spirited. Sawyer seemed to see it that way too from the way he took the pat on the back Jack gave him as he left.

I was very glad to see Jack joke, laugh and then jump right back into save-a-life mode. That is when he's the closest to the Pilot eppy Jack IMO.

I was also disturbed by Jack's behavior with Sawyer this evening. I am not, by any means, a Sawyer or Jack fan....I don't prefer either of them. I do agree that Sawyer does deserve a taste of his own medicine, but those questions were embarrassing and something I'm pretty sure Sawyer wanted to keep private. Boo to Jack for going 'below the belt' and sinking to a lower level just to get even with him. But, that's just my opinion.

It was hysterical. Lighten up.

Jack was just play a version of "I never" called "Have you ever?". :lol2:

I LIKE Jack but just like I agree when Charlie is being a jerk....I stand by what I said about him. He should have asked Kate to leave while he was questioning Sawyer.. I didn't find the exchange funny at all. Kate was sitting over the giggling and smirking when I would have left without being told to...there is such a thing as being discreet. I don't care what Jack's motives were..that was just plain wrong of BOTH of them.

I like the jokes and banter as much as anyone and Sawyer does deserve to get some of his own back but I just didn't find that funny at all.

And I visit a sugeon on a regular basis...about every three months. I had surgery two years ago and she has not released me. She is one of the most personable and involved doctors I have. We know each other on a first name basis. Just being a surgeon is no excuse.

you have to remember that this isn't a doctor's office, where this kind of behavior is extremely unprofessional. they don't call Jack "dr.", he doesn't wear a lab coat, and he is kind of portrayed as "the leader who happens to be a surgeon", not vice versa. it's easy to forget he's a doctor. and as many people have said, it's not like Sawyer doesn't deserve a little jab, even if it was a little cruel.

But Jack wasn't just asking Sawyer those personal questions just to be a jerk or make him look bad. He was making his rival look bad in front of the lady they are courting. (I use the terms "lady" and "courting" very lightly...:) ) He needed to make sure Kate was saying to herself, "Am I sure I want to get close to this guy?" And he did it using Sawyer's own methods. It was subtle and brilliant. From this point on, Kate knows that Sawyer had/has some sort of STD and probably caught it from a prostitute.


And most importantly out of all of this (at least the part concerning the title of this thread). Repeat after me... "It's Just A TV SHOW."

Using the same logic,

It's very unprofessional for Kate to screw over her fellow bank robbers (probably breaking the 'Honor among thieves' code).

It's very unprofessional for Sawyer to kill someone without making sure he's getting the right person.

It's very unprofessional for Michael not to be using union labor while building his raft (and using FOREIGN labor, to boot!)

It's very unprofessional for Sayid to have disobeyed his superiors in the Iraqi army and even LIED to them.

And for that matter, it was very unprofessional for Jack to be seeing patients wearing a t-shirt! Simply unacceptable!



;)


DP

I can't believe what people are saying about Jack! He finally gets a chance to get back at Sawyer for all his quirky comments and people call him unproffesional!!!!!!

I laughed my butt off when he did that, and it's not because he's hot

oh come on, they're stranded on an island.

Jack isn't getting paid for his services... sawyer WAS being an arse... and jack was just asking him questions.. sawyer didn't have to answer. Yes jack did it to get his own back on sawyer, so what? What it comes down to... is that jack DID help sawyer, he fixed the problem.. and sawyer can now go on and continue reading his many books. The end.

oh geez -asking a few questions about STD's & making some insuated jokes is just poorer taste but it's hardly a violation of the Hippocratic Oath. *:laugh: I've never heard of a doctor being sued for making bad jokes *:laugh: Sawyer knew Kate was there & he waived is right to confidentiality by letting Kate hear his answers........I'm w/banksy-Jack isn't on hospital time & is doing all of his medical services as a favor. He's not bound by law on this island to treat ppl. He's Dr.Jack all the time but ppl need to give him room to just be Jack-the flawed guy struggling like everyone else who should be allowed to lighten up...Sawyer's always making cracks-calling him Dr. Quinn, Dr. Do Right & Jackass lol....You could see Jack was concerned for his pain anyway-beyond the fact that Kate had asked him to check him out...Jack saw him on the beach hurting & that's what stimulated him to come over & say something. Which meant Jack had to swallow his pride and he even asked congenially & genuinely about his head. And he did help him & ease his conscience* that he didn't have a brain tumor. He could have been spiteful & played it out even more. I thought the scene w/him helping Sawyer pick out glasses was sweet* :)

I thought it was brilliant writing and hysterically funny.

Sawyer has been such a poop! Jack just got some pay-back, that's all.

RuneMuse

The thing is Jack has already gotten back at Sawyer several times. I didn't mind that part of it.. I didn't mind the banter or the personal questions.....it was having Kate there. If the writers had had her hanging around outside the cave eavesdropping and giggling to herself and then revealing to Jack/Sawyer later that she had heard all *I might have been able to take it better because she would just be acting in character. *Kate is sneaky.


As far as the other characters are concerned...if they act like jerks I will agree. . I might bring out reasons that others might have overlooked concerning his/her behavior but if he or she is being a jerk *at a particular moment in time so be it.

Just read through all these posts, and concur with those who just loved the Jack/Sawyer interaction - too many great thoughts to quote just a couple. *Jack's actions were completely understandable, IMO, and his methods of making Sawyer squirm with the "unprofessionalism" (c'mon, gimme a break) was just a small reciprocation of how Sawyer has verbally taken shots at him throught the season.

The humor and sarcasm was fantastic, and Sawyer begrudgingly knew he needed help and didn't hold a grudge over any of Jack's methods - I think Sawyer kind of saw it like, "touche" - you got me back. *And yes, Kate was part of Jack's motivations, but again, c'mon - Jack knew Sawyer eventually needed help, and wouldn't seriously ask him for it, so he did what was right. *It's what he usually does, just because he's the only one who can help in that scenario.

The "professionalism" crap goes out the window when surviving on an island comes into play. *Jack could be the type of person to completely turn his back on everyone - then where would they all be? *He's their de-facto "leader", not really by choice, but because he knows there would be chaos without some sort of organization.

He was able to lighten up and - yes - actually reveal quite a lot in "Jack-speak" toward how he cares about Kate. *Cut the Doc some slack, please...

Yeah, I think a lot of people have hit the nail on the head when they were talking about the TYPE of joking jack was doing being inappropriate! I completely agree that it was time Sawyer 'got some back', but joking about someone's sexual history in the guise of a medical exam IS problematic. Sure he didn't HAVE to answer the questions...(and actually he really didn't...he just got embarrased and Jack said 'I'll take that as a yes') but Jack had him thinking that there was something really wrong with him and he was freaked out. I think what bothered me was that Jack, as a doctor, knew very well that there was nothing seriously wrong with Sawyer. And he was aware of the power that he had being the only one with medical knowledge in that situation. And although it WAS amusing, I think it was taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable position...and because he was treating him as a doctor, it was therefore inappropriate

And I agree with people who say he should have asked Kate to leave. He didn't even give Sawyer the option of being in private during such a humiliating interrogation. I think if they had been by themselves, the joke would have been funnier because its only purpose would have been to scare Sawyer. But the fact that he did it in front of Kate suggests that his aim was humiliation and you really can't get more unprofessional than that!

Don't get me wrong...I'm not REALLY bothered by the whole thing...I laughed...but I do disagree with Jack's behaviour.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not REALLY bothered by the whole thing...I laughed...but I do disagree with Jack's behaviour.


I think that is in a nutshell how I feel about it as well. *It was good but to me it would have gone down better if Kate hadn't been right there.

It wasn't Jack's responsibility to ask Kate to leave though-it was Sawyer's. He made a conscious choice to allow Kate to hear the answers...Sawyer joking about watching Jack die, even if he wouldn't actually do it, wasn't an appropriate type of joke... Jack & Kate were embarrassed when he said the made out comment....He joked to Kate about St.Jack being buried in the cave in & Kate not having anyone to pity, and he teased Charlie about Claire not liking him in her diary when he was distraught over her missing. Not everyone is going to like Jack, can't blame folks for that, but I can't agree he's an insenitive lout. Louts would have just left ppl to suffer. And he showed genuine concern for Sawyer when he saw he was in pain...He had the same reaction when he heard Sawyer in pain in CM.... Jack's put his life in danger so many times for ppl he doesn't know...I just think he should get some leeway where if he does things which are inappropriate, we judge it on the same scale as others who are forgiven for their misappropriations. As was said he isn't getting paid to help ppl & he rarely gets a thankyou.

Hey Banshee* *:)

Don't worry I'm well aware the Sawyer has done many, many inappropriate things since he's been there. He's attempted to embarrass or humilate just about EVERYONE on the island at one point. And I freely admit that! He's a JERK! lol...I know that

I just have to take issue with the 'doctor' aspect though. If Jack were just joking to Sawyer about STD's in front of Kate for no reason that would have been hilarious! But because he did it during a medical exam...he put Sawyer in a position where he felt pressured to answer and that's a little unfair

Also I think the onus WAS on Jack to ask Kate to leave. Sawyer DID say to her "do you have to be here for this?" even before the personal questions and Jack and Kate just laughed it off...Sawyer didn't know where Jack was going with the questioning so he really didn't have any warning that it was going to get so personal. He should have asked Kate to leave BEFORE he mentioned the prostitute thing...

I'm not being hard on Jack...he's not insensative at all...far from it..and like I said I DO understand WHY he felt like joking around with Sawyer...and it didn't bother me that much...I just disagree in theory with any doctor joking about the things he did in front of other people.

Although it can be argued that Jack acted *unprofessional*, he still diagnosed, treated and even showed caring for the patient. *To be honest, Jack isn't obligated to act professional to anyone since he is technically *off the clock* during his time on the island.

Sawyer does respect Jack and called him *doc* instead of the usual nicknames. *Sawyer did eventually realize that Jack was playing with him during the question session but Sawyer does appreciate such sarcasm-humor (although wouldn't admit it). *Lastly, Sawyer does have an honor system and will remember that Jack did help him.

Jack and Sawyer are indeed getting closer. *They have gone from rival enemies to competing brothers, mostly because of Jack knowing when to jokingly push Sawyer's buttons and trusting him with a weapon.

Yes, Darkpiranha...we know it's a TV show; I never understand when people say that. Of course, we know!


People say it because other people get indignant about silly little details as it it was REAL. Whenever I see a thread that starts off like this one did, I just have to roll my eyes. I mean, go back and read the opening salvo in this thread. It's one thing to talk about how silly or unrealistic something is, it's quite another to talk as if a character on a fictional TV show (a fantastical, sci-fi based one , at that) as if they had actually committed the offense. It's bafflingly funny to read all the comments about Sawyer's actions or Sayid's actions and how riled up people get about it.

It's just a TV show! It's not a documentary! The WRITERS who create this show MAKE UP situations to put their characters through that they hope will be entertaining and/or dramatic and/or thrilling to the audience. Yes, in the real world, Jack would and should be held to his oath. But his character is stranded on a desert island. The writers took CREATIVE LICENSE in order to make their story more interesting.

I don't mean to keep beating this dead horse, but this horse seems to keep on standing back up!

I can only theorize that these comments are made by people that aren't writers, or don't ever do any creative writing. That's not meant as an insult or anything, just a fact that if you do ever write, you'll see IMMEDIATELY that you can't have 100% technical accuracy AND an interesting story. 100% technical accuracy means that you can't have an unseen monster attacking people on an island.

I have no problem with people calling out a plot thread or event that is SILLY or unrealistic or poorly executed. It's just the blustering indignation that I find so ridiculous.

:)

DP

Unprofessional? Oh please. Jack was just getting some information for Sawyer's file.

First Darkpirahna.....Hello....don't you get the fact that that is why we're here to enjoy discussing the show?

Second......Jack is a jealous, bitter little man if you ask me. *There was NO reason to do that - yes he and Sawyer have not always gotten along of course but what he did crossed over ANY line that there is....if he had just made him think something was really wrong I wouldn't have been upset about it really but the PERSONAL stuff that he brought up JUST to humiliate him in front of KATE...well bitter jealous little man showing through. *I wish Sawyer had knocked his head off, and I used to like Jack alot. *Now...not so much!

Jealous jealous jealous.........if he wanted to screw with him he could have let it go at the technical names......what he was was JEALOUS and trying to get rid of the better looking and more intersting guy the only way he thought he could.

Well, I for one found it refreshing that Jack totally skipped the HIPAA compliance thing. *Sawyer can sue. *:lol2:

(*note for all not familiar with HIPAA. *It is the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 in the U.S. and basically covers patient privacy. *Major fines & even jail time for non-compliance can be levied). *

Hey Queen :)

I can't blame you for having your personal view on what you feel is appropriate.


I just have to take issue with the 'doctor' aspect though. If Jack were just joking to Sawyer about STD's in front of Kate for no reason that would have been hilarious! But because he did it during a medical exam...he put Sawyer in a position where he felt pressured to answer and that's a little unfair

Also I think the onus WAS on Jack to ask Kate to leave. Sawyer DID say to her "do you have to be here for this?" even before the personal questions and Jack and Kate just laughed it off...Sawyer didn't know where Jack was going with the questioning so he really didn't have any warning that it was going to get so personal. He should have asked Kate to leave BEFORE he mentioned the prostitute thing...


I guess I just see it as Sawyer picked up on the fact he didn't think these q's were conducive to diagnosing his headaches-even said what do these have to do w/it, & anyone can think *before they answer a question so he knew he was signing his waiver to the HIPAA act w/Kate there lol...I'm not excusing Jack from responsibility of having some fun at Sawyer's expense.

Also unfair though I think is the 'doctor' role that Jack is assigned leaves him no room to be anything but...It's a situation where he's always on call which granted isn't much different from being w/a hospital, but at least w/a hospital you have someone taking over shifts so you get some personal time. It goes back to what I was mentioning before-there's Jack the doctor-what he does, his job, & very much a part of who he is, but there's also Jack the man...So on the island where can Jack really draw the line of when he's allowed to make judgements in error, or do some inappropriate things as nearly everyone has, without being judged under the microscope of "leader" , "hero" or the "doctor". It winds up pigeon holing his character in these archetype & I think it prevents from appreciating all his character has to offer. I think that's actually why many may have trouble identifying w/Jack because he's these lofty positions that are essentially conflicts of interest in this setting. And that also come with very high expectations. I think Matt has done a beautiful job, as Josh has in finding the humanity in Sawyer, of creating a character who has foibles, but can also fill all these lofty roles w/the believability of still being flawed yet not unendearing or relatable.

He wouln't have asked those questions if Kate were not right there. *She is why those questions were asked.
He is a Dr. but that is just his chossen profession. *When I am hanging out with freinds/associates we joke with each other all the time. *Taking jabs is part of this joking around. *Back in my single days the best types of jabs and the ones that were the most fun were trying to embarras your buddy/rival in front of girl.
Sawyer could have said "What does this have to do w/my headaches". *Sure he didn't go to medical school but sometimes talking to a Dr.( a person just like you) you have to ask those questions.
Some of my friends are Dr.'s and Medical school does not take away your sense of humor or interacting with people just like everone else.

IMO you cannot apply professionalism to the surrondings and relationships they are in. *If Jack wore a lab coat everyday, only interacted with people with his best office persona, made appointments with these people in his cave office, and played golf every Wednesday... that would be unrealistic.

Of the many, many, many disturbing things about this very dense episode, I think the one that bothered me the most was Jack's cruelty and unprofessionalism in his dealings with Sawyer's headache issue.




Dense episode? Are you watching the same show as the rest of us? That was one of the most compelling and chilling episodes thus far in the season. If you find this episode so dense maybe you need to switch to another show. Because these are the episodes that make Lost the best show on T.V.!

Sigh......


I rest my case and respectfully bow out of this.... um.... perplexing discussion.

Knock yourselves out, folks.

:)

DP

Space you said it better than me-& much more tersely too :laugh:

Dense episode? Are you watching the same show as the rest of us? That was one of the most compelling and chilling episodes thus far in the season. If you find this episode so dense maybe you need to switch to another show. Because these are the episodes that make Lost the best show on T.V.!


I think they meant dense as in many layered and many themes crowded together into one. Not as in 'stupid'.

There is more that one definition to the word.

I agree with the poster you quoted and he or she would probably agree with you.

He wouln't have asked those questions if Kate were not right there. *She is why those questions were asked.
He is a Dr. but that is just his chossen profession. *When I am hanging out with freinds/associates we joke with each other all the time. *Taking jabs is part of this joking around. *Back in my single days the best types of jabs and the ones that were the most fun were trying to embarras your buddy/rival in front of girl.
Sawyer could have said "What does this have to do w/my headaches". *Sure he didn't go to medical school but sometimes talking to a Dr.( a person just like you) you have to ask those questions.
Some of my friends are Dr.'s and Medical school does not take away your sense of humor or interacting with people just like everone else.

IMO you cannot apply professionalism to the surrondings and relationships they are in. *If Jack wore a lab coat everyday, only interacted with people with his best office persona, made appointments with these people in his cave office, and played golf every Wednesday... that would be unrealistic.



Naturally a doc can have a "sense of humor" as well as anybody else, HOWEVER during a consultation, which this was, you are a doctor. You have taken an oath, you act professional and you respect other people and their privacy. Being a doc is not a strict 9-5 job, it really isn't, and if someone in need demands your help, you give it to that person, despite your feelings for him/her.
And you definately does not use someones medical problems as a way to get even, to make an impression on a girl or trying to make the patient to appear bad. That is NOT professional behaviour from a doc, despite the surroundings or situations.
The scene can naturally by amusing to watch, plain interesting and fun entertainment, BUT it is not professional behaviour.
It has been said, several times, that the situaion was funny and/or interesting etc, but despite that ,he acted unprofessional. One thing does not automatically exclud the other........

First off- a lot of surgeons are considered to be arrogant, cocky and self absorbed with a horrible bed side manner. *That's okay, patients deal with it, cause lets be real..........if you are going to have someone operate on you, you really do want someone who is sure of himself and his abilities. *I have worked with some amazing MD's who fit into this catogory and as a person you can't stand them, but as a surgeon you admire them. I have also been fortunate to have known surgeons that were warm and friendly.
And didn't fit into this category at all.

Secondly- The Hippocratic Oath- Here are some parts of it:

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know.

Yes, I know, it's a TV show. *(I guess that's why it comes on that big box in my living room every Wednesday at 8pm ;D) *But, a doctor is required to take that oath. *He broke the oath, plain and simple. *What he did throws a bad light on medicine. *He did it for no other reason then to make Sawyer look bad in front of Kate and to cause him embarrasment. *And didn't Sawyer actually say to Jack "Does she have to be here for this?" *when Jack started asking personel questions? *Jack had a responsibility as a doctor to uphold his patients right to confidentialty and to ask Kate to leave. *It was quite clear that Sawyer did not want her there. *

I have no problem with him joking around or trying to get back at Sawyer. *I know that they don't get along. *But it should have been done a different way. *To deliberately violate someones condifence though is wrong. *But, I guess if anyone knows that it would be Sawyer, after all, he is a confidence man!! :lol2:

These are people trying to make the best they can with what they have. *I think professionalism went out the widow somewhere between 40,000 ft. and the ground.
They see no sign of getting rescued. They all have their own special way to contribute to the groups survival (hunting, construction, conjuring up polor bears). *Jack's just happens to be that he went to medical school instead of getting an MBA or Doctorate in theology. Let Dr Quinn have some fun. :laugh:

These are people trying to make the best they can with what they have. *I think professionalism went out the widow somewhere between 40,000 ft. and the ground.
They see no sign of getting rescued. They all have their own special way to contribute to the groups survival (hunting, construction, conjuring up polor bears). *Jack's just happens to be that he went to medical school instead of getting an MBA or Doctorate in theology. Let Dr Quinn have some fun.* *:laugh:


He can have fun and still be a doctor.

We are going to nitpick this to death. Its just like some of the other debates we have had on here. No right or wrong about it...I guess its good old fashioned situation ethics. What we would have done in the same situation....what makes for good tv....what advances the mystery...what makes us what to tune in next week...etc etc etc. No real resolution to it.

the good ole agree to disagree. Sounds like a draw to me.

Jack managed to stay professional with Charlie and his addiction and withdrawl symptoms..... So I don't agree that professionalism went away with the loss of the tail section of the plane.... However, when you allow yourself to play with a mans fear, and medical condiation to appear "better" to a girl, youre on a dangerous path IMHO. If you cant keep professional in a simple situation like that, when can you ???

I don't mind Jack having fun, not even if it's on Sawyer (and I'm a Sawyer fan...), I do however strongly disagree with his behaviour and ways.

I agree with you Kristina, EXCEPT, Jack didn't use Sawyer's medical problems to get even. Sawyer's medical problem was that he needed glasses, not that he had an STD. He was merely playing with Sawyer about the STD and yes, trying to make him look bad in front of Kate, but that's basically all.

I agree that his behavior was unprofessional. My question would be, so what?

I don't remember reading even one post expressing outrage when Sawyer pointed a loaded gun at Jack as a "joke." People expect Jack to behave a certain way because he is a doctor, but it's not his responsibility to live up to other's expectations. There is a poll somewhere on this site (maybe it's lost-forum, I can't remember) that shows that Sawyer is the most popular character by a 2-1 ratio over Jack. When I see how willing people are to make excuses for the thieving, coercive, violent Sawyer, it makes me wonder why anyone should want to be the nice guy. A doctor spends 9 years in intensive training (med school, intern, residency) learning how to help people, and ends up being treated as equal to a grubby thief? Why should Jack be the patient, long-suffering door mat?

I don't mean to provoke anyone who is a Sawyer fan. Sometimes people react to criticism of a character as though it were criticism of a real person, or criticism of them personally for liking the character. I'm just expressing my frustration over how high the expectations of Jack are, and how little he is respected even when he meets those expectations.

I agree with you Kristina, EXCEPT, Jack didn't use Sawyer's medical problems to get even. Sawyer's medical problem was that he needed glasses, not that he had an STD. He was merely playing with Sawyer about the STD and yes, trying to make him look bad in front of Kate, but that's basically all.


Yes but he took advantage of the fact that Sawyer thought there was something really wrong with him...in order to get him to answer really personal and embarrassing questions....questions he NEVER would have answered anywhere other than a medical examination. I have no problem with Jack getting even with Sawyer, I think that's hilarious! BUT he used his position as a doctor to do it...and that's where it gets a litte dicey

And I agree with Kristina, Jack HAS mantained professionalism with other survivors...so it isn't that he can't distinguish it...

And Blamo, I do get where you're coming from...and I don't excuse Sawyer's behaviour at all!!! If Jack had come up with a nasty plan to get even with him, I would have been ALL for it...he deserves it...he's had it coming. It's ONLY the fact that Jack used his position as a doctor that irks me a little. It's great that he helped him with the headaches, but any patient under any circumstance has the right to privacy and confidentiallity. Jack knew Sawyer needed help...and that he would be vulnerable...therefore it's a good time to mess with him...

I think it was a nasty thing to do...HOWEVER, I actually loved the fact that he did it. I don't agree with it, but I I'm really glad that Jack did something less than ethical because it makes him more interesting to me.

I don't hold Jack up to a higher standard. I don't expect him to somehow be more responsible, or respected or serious or anything like that. Heck, he can run around being a total sleeze ball and hit on women. I don't expect him to be above anyone else.

What I do hold to a higher standard is the oath that he took. It clearly states that you will hold your patients confidentialty to the highest standard. That you will be respectful of your patient. That is what I , and probably alot of others, are complaing about because that is not what Jack did. He demeaned the oath as an MD for his own personel amusment and fun. That, in my opinion, is just flat out wrong.

Not as an excuse for Sawyers past behaviors but Sawyer is who he is. We almost expect him to do stuff. Like point the gun, give smart remarks and hit on girls. We don't expect an MD to violate his oath.

They're not in Kansas anymore lol....I highly doubt in crude settings witch doctors & aboriginies worry about embarrassing patients or Hippocratic Oaths* :laugh: So because Jack took an oath back in civilization which they're no longer in, he's being held up to those standards on the island even though he could have chosen not to reveal he was a doctor. Not helped those ppl on the beach the first day, or continued to treat ppl thereafter. He did it because it's who he is, & he wants to help, so I don't think his character should be questioned so extensively based on some embarrassing questions that were perfunctory & poor taste at best.

Sawyer chose to reveal the information he was asked. He waived his right to confidentiality when he answered the questions. He may have felt some pressure, but he knew Kate was there & didn't have to answer... Jack didn't break the oath of confidentiality because the exam wasn't confidential in the first place. Had he privately examined Sawyer & then gone & told Kate the information when she wasn't present is when it would be a violation.
And he showed warmth, empathy & compassion when he first approached Sawyer to offer assistance.

Not as an excuse for Sawyers past behaviors but Sawyer is who he is.* We almost expect him to do stuff.* Like point the gun, give smart remarks and hit on girls.* We don't expect an MD to violate his oath.
I think it's unrealistic to say that in a triple role of doctor, leader, & a main character that Jack isn't held up to meet a higher standard than other characters.....If the situation were reversed & it had been Sawyer making these comments it wouldn't be an issue because it is expected of him.. However, I think Blamo had good points that Jack is judged by a double standard. We expect sex offenders to repeat the same behavior so because it's expected of them does that make it ok. So why does Jack have to live up to these lofty ideals all the time when other characters can behave in a negative way & not necessarily be looked upon with such disappointment. ....When does he get to take off the doctor coat. He doesn't because he has 46 ppl who are his patients 24/7. There's no room for* the flawed, conflicted, foibled man struggling just like everyone else...He's done so much for everyone on the island already including putting his own life in danger I think he's earned some leeway.

wow, i so did not think it was this big of a deal. it was funny, and unprofessional at the same time. none of the people on this island are saints (jeez!) the end.

i agree tandi in that I feel perhaps the issue is being enlarged out of proportion* :laugh: Alright who slipped ppl the Viagra?

I think his selfishness shows, because he helped Sawyer in order to endear himself to Kate. *Not to make Sawyer's headaches go away.


Actually, all he said was that he wasn't doing it for Sawyer. *I would argue that he wasn't doing it to look good in front of Kate, he was doing it because he felt he had to for himself. *A lot of the Jack-doctor conflict arises because he has this need to save people himself, perhaps brought on by the fact that he wasn't able to save the woman in his flashback. *For example, he had a hard time letting go and realizing he could not save both Boone and the girl from drowning. *Also, when Charlie was hanged Jack would not give up, even when Kate told him to stop, it was no longer any use (so if all he wanted was to sleep with her, he would have just listened to her, wouldn't he have?)

It's a good thing to want to help people, but in Jack's case it is a source of inner conflict since he cannot accept the fact that sometimes, through no fault of his own, he cannot save people. *I think this complex, perhaps more than a desire to get close to Kate, was responsible for Jack trying to help Sawyer. *His arguably unprofessional manner just shows his humanity. *He and Sawyer are far from being best buds, so it's not surprising he didn't handle it as he might have. *Maybe seeing Sawyer a little more vulnerable rather than swaggering presented just too great a temptation to resist! *

hehehe :lol2:

So because Jack took an oath back in civilization which they're no longer in,

Well YES...lol...he chose to behave as a doctor would in a civlized society most of the time...He has always been the onen upholding civilization and he has struggled to maintain it. He indicated to Hurley that doctor/patient confidentiality was still in tact when Hurley asked about it when revealing his bowel problems...AND he promised Charlie not to reveal his drug addiction...mainly because as a doctor it's the right thing to do. It's true that TECHNICALLY the oath doesn't apply on a deserted island...but Jack has always chosen to uphold his ethical values as a doctor...SO to suddenly decide they don't apply with Sawyer..is a litte hypocritical....

Sawyer chose to reveal the information he was asked. He waived his right to confidentiality when he answered the questions. He may have felt some pressure, but he knew Kate was there & didn't have to answer... Jack didn't break the oath of confidentiality because the exam wasn't confidential in the first place. Had he privately examined Sawyer & then gone & told Kate the information when she wasn't present is when it would be a violation.


ALL doctor exams are confidential automatically and if you recall Sawyer DIDN'T want Kate there, but Jack did nothing about it. And Sawyer never chose to reveal any information. He never even really answered the questions. Jack started asking them and he didn't know what to think....he didn't want to lie if it could help him find the 'cause of the headaches, but he didn't want to talk about it in front of Kate. Jack never gave him the privacy option to which he was entitled. If you're going to ask a patient really personal questions you have to let them know that...THEN they can decide if they want anyone else in the room or if they want someone already there to leave. Sawyer didn't want Kate there, and wasn't aware that he was about to be asked anything really personal...so he had no opportunity to waive confidentiality

Again...it's not that I hate Jack for this....I admire him for blurring his moral boundries...it's exciting!

But tecnically what he did was wrong...(which is probably why I like it! :lol2:)

I'll come right out and say that Jack's tendency to be self righteous has irked more and more as the show has progressed. *Just for the record, I don't blindly go to his side becasue he is hot. *To be honest in the last few eps, I've started to like Sawyer's character a bit more than Jack's. *I just wanted to lay that out first.

This time, though, I have to stand up for Jack.

I honestly think that people forget that the man is a human being. *A fallible human being, trapped in extrordinarily *difficult curcumstances, trying to do the best he can as "tribe" doctor, and at times de facto leader, with next to no proper tools on hand. *A Doctor's oath may hold him to higher standards in our minds, but it doesn't make him automatically the pinnacle of moral virtue. *It doesn't mean that he'll always "Do no harm." *It doesn't mean he'll always swallow his feelings and turn the other cheek because the person he is dealing with is a "patient." *The fact that he is holding up under the trauma of the crash, all of the events on the island, and the weight of all of the lostaways expectations is commendable to say the least. *I'm sure there are many a doctor who would be incapacitated by the trauma of it all. *Because humans are humans, and oath or no, the human side of us will get us eventually.

Be honest, hasn't most people here wanted to slap Sawyer at least once? *The man is prickly as a cactus. *We might know the cause of that, but that doesn't make him any easier to live with for the lostaways. *I know, I know, that is not an excuse, but try and see it from Kate and Jack's end of things for a second. *Was Sawyer embarrassed? *Yes. *Was any pernanent harm done aside from a slightly bruised ego? *No. *I don't think for a moment that if Jack honestly thought it was a really serious condition that he'd joke around like that. *He knew what was wrong from the pen test. *He probably suspected it with the first questions on the beach. *If he had joked in front of the others and not just Kate then I might be more likely to go along with being upset with him. *He didn't though. *He only joked in front of Kate who already knows more about Sawyer than anyone else, and in the end helped Sawyer despite the fact that Sawyer had already rejected treatment, and had to be dragged to Jack. * *

I just don't see his ribbing as something to make a big deal out of. *Were his actions professional, strictly speaking? No. *I'll agree with that. *He definitely could have made better choices. *Were his actions understandable and even excusable? *IMHO yes. *The guy isn't a saint. *An oath might subject him to higer standards, but it doesn't take away a person's human tendencies. *If people want to hate Jack, or maybe not even hate, just think he is a pain in the rear, then dislike him for his antibiotic blackmail several eps back. *Now that was IMHO was truly unprofessional, definitely unethical, and 100% against his oath. *Bruising a smartass's ego is one thing. *It's something that any of us would probably relish doing at some time and in the end his generally harmless. *Threatening a slow and excruciating death by purposely withholding meds? *Now that is worth a federal case. *I really didn't see any harm in last night's ep. *

But that is just my opinion

Sawyer chose to reveal the information he was asked. He waived his right to confidentiality when he answered the questions. He may have felt some pressure, but he knew Kate was there & didn't have to answer... Jack didn't break the oath of confidentiality because the exam wasn't confidential in the first place.

I don't recall Sawyer every waiving his confidentiality rights. *When was this? *All I remember was Sawyer asking Jack if Kate had to be there. *That in itself tells you that Sawyer didn't want Kate there. *Jack should have asked Kate to leave or taken Sawyer somewhere where it was a little less "crowded". *

Why wasn't the exam confidential? *He is a doctor, he was treating Sawyer as a patient. *Therefore doctor / patient privlages apply. *We can't just throw the hippocratic oath and all his years of training as an MD just cause they are on a deserted island. *An doctor worth his salt would still feel the obligation to uphold the oath and his duties as a doctor.

You are right though, maybe as a doctor he is held to a higher standard then the other passangers. *After all, they do seem to all look to him for guidance and medical help. *

I guess it is agree to disagree because I feel it's getting into semantics. He helped Sawyer, didn't have to but he did. He made a poor choice in judgement to make jokes at Sawyers expense but I feel that's all it amounts to. Otherwise he expressed concern & interest in assisting him when he first approached him.

You can't breach a confidentiality clause when the patient allows someone to witness the exam. *Jack isn't a bouncer...Sawyer answered the questions in front of Kate therefore he chose to reveal the information to her & Jack.

Jack has chosen to uphold his values as a doctor in a setting where he isn't required by law to perform those services, abide by the oath, or use those skills... What we're discussing is essentially bedside manner-treatment wasn't refused. There are plenty of doctors who are jerks & make cracks at patients expense. Jack was being fairly benign to some of the stuff I've heard LOL.

I think Sawyer wouldn't have wanted it any other way. And I thought it was very sweet how Jack took care of
his problem and Sayid made his glasses for him, and Jack panted him on the back. I think it's a guy thing
and it was very endearing to me, to see how they all inter acted together. I love those guys!!!

Whether Jack was acting professional or not is not the point of their interaction. I think that these scenes were used to show that Jack is human and has a sense of humor and may act unprofessional at times because he is a person who has flaws like everyone esle. At the end of the day, whether Jack's actions were right or wrong, he is not Buddha or Jesus or any other saviour immune from doing wrong, he is a person. I personally want to see more behaviour from him that is questionable because so far we have seen so much of Jack doing the right thing all the time, being the hero and him stepping into his role as the leader/doctor/hero which makes it hard not to put him on a pedestal. Also, I thought these scenes were funny and I quite enjoyed them. *:)

Actually, all he said was that he wasn't doing it for Sawyer. *I would argue that he wasn't doing it to look good in front of Kate, he was doing it because he felt he had to for himself. *

When I heard him say that, "I wasn't doing it for him" i also took it to mean that he was doing it for himself. The fact that he treated and helped someone whom he basically despised and maybe even hated some.

Confidentiality, what confidentiality? The exam wasn't confidential to begin with. Kate was in there for the exam, so unless SAWYER told her specifically to get out, it's normal that she stayed in the cave. If Sawyer wanted her gone, then he should have said so before Jack began the tests. Also, it's not like they are in some hospital setting where Jack and Sawyer can be behind closed doors. It was in a cave for pete's sake, no doors no curtains, so anybody could have stood there/ listened if they wanted. Atleast Jack had the tests run in the caves and not say, the beach. Then that would be confidentiality issues.

When I heard him say that, "I wasn't doing it for him"* i also took it to mean that he was doing it for himself.* The fact that he treated and helped someone whom he basically despised and maybe even hated some.*


or it could simply be that in Jack's own way he was telling Kate how he felt about her...It was obvious in the first JK scene of the ep-talking in the cave that Jack was reluctant to help Sawyer because he knew Sawyer didn't want his help, or at least that he'd protest it. And he did at first...So it wasn't easy to help Sawyer, & Jack did something he knew would be difficult not because he enjoyed it, but because she asked him. I think it''s a simple declaration of feelings & maybe even a little self deception trying to tell himself he wasn't concerned for Sawyer when he was. You could see that when he first saw he was having trouble.

Jack isn't one to pat himself on the back for his good deeds-he usually rakes himself over the coals for not doing enough, so I suppose in his moral compass it was for himself to a degree to know that he tried to do the right thing.

The real people to have righteous indignation about if one feels the need to
be indignant is the writers. They handed these actors
the script and they performed it. If there is any one to dislike or sneer at, that would be the
writers.

I loved the scene, and thought the hunks did a good job of it. The character of Sawyer begged
to be handled the way the character was, and yet at the same time, the character of Sayid and
the character of Jack had mercy and compassion for him as well. I thought it was a well
written piece.

Unprofessionalism??? On a creepy island that they crashed on?? Does anyone honestly think that if they were in LA and Jack was in a hospital checking out sawyer that any of that would have happened?? No....they are on an island and Jack was just messing with Sawyer. And sawyer deserved to get a taste of his own medicine....which even HE knew, lol.....the whole thing was funny to watch and I didnt get the sense at the end that sawyer was pissed at jack or anything. I thought it was great the way the two of them interacted and I hope we get to see more of it. There was a definite sense of community in that ep ( sayid helping with the glasses, hurley and kate commenting on them) And in any community you're going to see banter and pranks......its normal...and its fun to watch...so I say bring it on!

As for why Jack helped....bansh is dead on! The whole "I didn't do it for him" was a way for him to let Kate know how he feels. Its not that he wouldnt have checked out sawyer if it werent for Kate (because he went over to him when he saw him having some trouble) but Kate was the one that brought her concern to him and brought the problem to his attention....and since he does care about her, I think its cute that he in part wanted to do it for her.

I think everyone needs to realize that these people are stuck on an island with nothing...of course they are going to bust each others chops sometimes! Whether you like or hate Jack and Sawyer, there are going to be times in which the writing is both favorable and unfavorable for them both. That's just the way it goes. I don't think in any way was Jack doing it to be cruel, he was just having a little fun at Sawyer's expense. After all, if Sawyer really wanted to stir something up, he could bring up Jack's father.

I'm going to remember all this 'give this guy a break' the next time you all start jumping on any other character for questionable behavior...... :lol2:

The thing is, I WANT to like Jack. *I just don't, yet. *I believed that his "I didn't do it for him" comment was purely for Kate's benefit. If not to make her like him more, at least to make her like Sawyer less. But looking at it this way...


When I heard him say that, "I wasn't doing it for him"* i also took it to mean that he was doing it for himself.* The fact that he treated and helped someone whom he basically despised and maybe even hated some.*


really sheds new light on things, and I thank you for that. *It shows that he is trying to overcome some of his flaws. And the want for self-improvement is a great character trait. *So thank you, thank you, thank you. *I don't HATE him anymore, but I don't like him much. *He still has a long way to go in my book, but at least I won't cringe during his scenes anymore. *I have learned to accept and even love some of the other characters in spite of, and even because of, some of their flaws. *I am trying to accept Jack in spite of his, I am just not quite there yet.
And I do like that he's finally removing the stick from his butt and lightening up a little.

Now if someone could just convince me to like Kate....

Jack has to be, by any objective standard I can think of, the most ethical/good person on the Island. Most people who don't like Jack don't like him because he is boring: i.e., he is too good/too heroic/too flawless to the point of being one-dimensional. Now, I don't agree with that assessment, but I can see where it is coming from. Jack really is just a good guy; this episode exposed some deficincies in his character, for sure, but minor ones that only served to reinforce his solid moral core. So I am wondering, what serious "flaws" about Jack have you found?

I guess what I'm really hung up on is his jumping to conclusions and assisting in, or condoning, Sawyer's torture.

You are right Banshee, the comment could also be taken to mean that he was doing if for Kate. I guess only the writers know that one!! :lol2:

And I don't hate Jack. I just think that he uses his position as a doctor to "get back" at Sawyer and that is wrong. He shouldn't wield his power or knowledge as a doctor over someone just to boast his own ego or to make himself feel better. And we can't say "Oh, well Sawyer is a lying, hording *** so he deserves it." I have no problem with Jack getting back at Sawyer for stuff that has happened in the past, and in fact welcome the comedy of it, but it really makes Jack look like such a scum when he does it this way.

There was no other reason for him asking those questions then to embarrass him and to let Kate in on some know info on Sawyer. Sounds like a doctor with an ego complex.


Brizzle- Maybe you missed the part where Sawyer asked Jack if Kate had to be there. Jack just ignored him and kept asking questions that had nothing what so ever to do with his heahaches and/or eyesight. By his asking if she needed to be there he was saying he didn't want her there.

Secondly- regardless of where you are, you are a doctor and you took an oath and agreed to uphold that oath. Part of that oath states that you will PROTECT YOUR PATIENTS PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY. The oath is no longer null and void if you end up on a deserted island on the other side of the world. An oath is a an oath. They are good everywhere. Jack did what he did for his own personal amusement and enjoyment. He shouldn't weild his power as a physician that way.

First Darkpirahna.....Hello....don't you get the fact that that is why we're here to enjoy discussing the show?

Second......Jack is a jealous, bitter little man if you ask me. There was NO reason to do that - yes he and Sawyer have not always gotten along of course but what he did crossed over ANY line that there is....if he had just made him think something was really wrong I wouldn't have been upset about it really but the PERSONAL stuff that he brought up JUST to humiliate him in front of KATE...well bitter jealous little man showing through. I wish Sawyer had knocked his head off, and I used to like Jack alot. Now...not so much!

Jealous jealous jealous.........if he wanted to screw with him he could have let it go at the technical names......what he was was JEALOUS and trying to get rid of the better looking and more intersting guy the only way he thought he could.


This I think sums up why I don't like Jack. Bad people skills+bitterness.

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread because I know that basically it's the same old tired Jack/Sawyer debate, and I'm getting a little sick of it (no offense).

Sawyer's a prick on the outside with heart on the inside.

Jack wears his heart on his sleeve, but he has a dark side deep down.

They're basically the same, except opposites. Does that make sense?

Jack just wanted to give Sawyer some of his "own medicine", so to speak, and considering how badly he's been treated by Sawyer, I don't really blame him. In the end, I think Sawyer realized how nasty he's been to Jack, and that maybe he should ease up on him a bit. Jack certainly isn't putting up with any of his @$%* anymore, since everytime Sawyer made a wisecrack he just turned and walked away.

Also, perhaps this is some foreshadowing about Jack's episode, "Do No Harm"? Obviously the island is putting him through a LOT of stress, which could cause him to lose some of his "civilized morals". Didn't Sawyer say he should start living in the wild? I think Jack's ethics are going to come into question next week. Taunting Sawyer might just be the tip of the iceberg.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the oath argument is that alot of people are divorced (vow), tell children that a fat man in a red suit brings them presents once a year (little white lie), No honey, those pants don't make you look fat (another lie), check the LAGE from work (ethics), (insert something you do in your non perfect life here....), but because Jack is a physician he is on a pedestal and should never (under any circumstance) act human.
:lol2: come on... those are funny!

Glass houses... stones

And by the way I fit into some of these catagories.

I think for me it's more that Jack chose to follow the oath while on the island in EVERY other circumstance...lol

He told Hurley that he had doctor/patient when he wanted to talk about his bowels...and as a physician he was treating Charlie for drug withdrawal and he kept it very quiet.

So he had previously made an effort to remain professional, which makes his behaviour with Sawyer unprofessional in comparison

but AGAIN...I have no problem with Jack's being unprofessional with Sawyer and I found it funny!

tell children that a fat man in a red suit brings them presents once a year (little white lie)

Wait.... it is a lie?

Say, there's this local wise-cracking guy who harrasses the doctors, but then discovers he needs their help...does he deserve to be ridiculed? *(The correct answer is NO)


No, of course not, and I think that was the point. Jack is letting his emotions get in the way of his profession. He is violating his oaths, and that will culminate in the next episode, "Do No Harm". I still think Sawyer deserved it. Hell, even SAWYER knew he deserved it. And frankly, they should all be thanking their own blessed fortune that there even IS a doctor on the island.

Should Jack, being a doctor, be forced to treat every ailment, every headache, every splinter in someone's foot? Is it right to expect him to continue being the perfect doctor that saves everyone?

Who's going to save Jack?

Also, I dislike Kate even more now. Maybe it would have been "professional" of HER to have left on her own, and let the doctor do his job?

Besides, Jack is probably horny as all hell, which is just another issue to cloud his judgement.

FYI - I've never been married, and I am not at work as I type this.* :)


Thats why I added (insert something you do in your non perfect life here....) *Unless of course you are exempt from this one. * :laugh:

Santa is a bit of a stretch... but exactly where is the line drawn **checking manual* * * :angel:

No, of course not, and I think that was the point. Jack is letting his emotions get in the way of his profession. He is violating his oaths, and that will culminate in the next episode, "Do No Harm". I still think Sawyer deserved it. Hell, even SAWYER knew he deserved it. And frankly, they should all be thanking their own blessed fortune that there even IS a doctor on the island.


quick scenario then: let's say you were having the same headaches as sawyer... *and you, and 2 buddies (one of which was a doctor), were on vacation... and then you present the problem to him, and he starts asking you questions like that, in front of the other friend? is there a problem? it's to ease tension really... in this case, he's not really being an OFFICIAL doctor, as much as he's applying his background and skills to help a friend... maybe a lot of people don't see it that way, but *for me personally, that's how i saw that entire exchange-- purely innocent and not a violation of anything... if you want that sort of violation, see Jack's dad... again this is my opinion of it

Space, I agree with you man. Good lord, you would think Jack is god or something the way people have pegged him. Well, it's no wonder he fell, you had him up to high.

so is the guy that works on traffic lights.

and jack isn't sawyer's doctor... you have to adapt to situations... jack was helping him with a problem... sawyer didn't even really care... i think he appreciated it more than anything that jack could play on his level... and it's not like jack was forcing kate to sit around while he asked questions, like samurai said...

ROFL - this is REALLY going back and forth now guys

My opinion in simple terms yet again

Was it unprofessional? - YES
Is it a big deal? NO
Was it funny - HELL YES!

so i guess sawyer should be filing a complaint with the medical review board then, when they get back...

It doesn't matter that Jack wasn't Sawyer's personal doctor!* *:PAgain, the traffic light guy - no comparison!* GEESH.
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P


What.... he hold your life/death in his hands... green both ways *not good * :lol2:

What.... he hold your life/death in his hands... green both ways not good :lol2:


And he is on a sort of pedestal and people do have to look up to him while he is working. :lol2:

Are you kidding me?

Sawyer is an A**!* I don't blame jack for jerking him around after all the things he has done.



I couldn't agree more. Sawyer deserved it and that's what Jack did, he pestered him. I think the right word is.

It was funny as anything...and I agree with whoever said that even Sawyer could see that Jack was playing on his level of the field....and I think the Doc just earned a little more respect from Sawyer.....but just a little, lol.

And IMO there is no need for Jack to be perfect and completely ethical on the island....they should all be thankful one of them is a doctor....if he wasnt, people wouldnt hate on him so much for not being perfect.....take him down off the pedestal and let him be human! The whole Sawyer/Jack exchange was great and I hope we see more of them messing around with each other

I'm taking names and keeping count. I can't wait for one of the other characters to do or be something less than perfect....

Remember he/she is NOT perfect.

Remember he/she can have an off day.

The end justifies the means and all that....

everyone on the island is becoming a little more humorious and i think jack did that for kicks but also because the fact kate was there... he embaressed sawyer in front of kate with something people dont want other people to know... jack did it to make kate have second thought because u notice... kate is falling a lil for sawyer (hell, i would..) :-*

I think everyone missed the point on this one

Jack didn't ask Sawyer about his sexual history to make kate dislike sawyer, he did it because he wanted to know if he should get with sawyer or not.. duh!

heh, in other news. Sawyer was really cute in this ep because he was like a wounded puppy or something.
fuck the hippocratic oath when you live on an island and some guy has stds. its a public health concern now. cause what if sawyer and kate get together and kate and the doctor and the doctor kisses shannon and blah blah and out of nowhere the polar bear comes down with a bad case of chlamydia?

PETA will come in blow the island up or something, thats what.

I think everyone missed the point on this one

Jack didn't ask Sawyer about his sexual history to make kate dislike sawyer, he did it because he wanted to know if he should get with sawyer or not.. duh


:angel: :devil: LOL

he he he...that's good...I like that theory... ;D

funny but crazy indeed :lol2: ::) :blink:

Well, I've read the entire thread. And I have to say, I do think some people are more offended by what Jack did than Sawyer is! It was never meant to be taken seriously, it was some light-hearted fun before the heavy Do No Harm, for which any light moments will probably be bittersweet. Sawyer has been insulting Jack left and right and Jack really hasn't done anything about it. Any normal human would finally reach a point where they would fight back and Jack did it in a way that hurt no one (Sawyer hardly looked like it really bothered him...he seemed much more peturbed by the glasses :lol2:)

As for the confidentiality, Sawyer's a big boy. He doesn't need Dr. Jack's help to tell people to leave. If he felt uncomfortable with Kate being there, he could've easily asked her to leave. It's certainly not on Jack's shoulders to do that.

Overall, I loved that scene. It was great for Jack and Sawyer's interaction and I do think it brought them closer together. I think Sawyer respects him now. Funny way of showing it though! :D

For the record, I'm a fan of both Jack and Sawyer. Easy on the eyes, too!

I'm stealing this from elsewhere

Jack has just learned to speak Sawyerese. Like others have said, I think Sawyer feels more comfortable joking around, and Jack being the good doctor he is, picked up on that and knew it would be more comfortable for Sawyer than being all official and Pooey.

They like each other, and are going to be great friends. :angel:

:jump:Polar bear with chlamydia :jump:

lol... ::)

Unprofesional ?? Sawyer didnt have to answer in front of Kate . He could have easily asked her to leave .and come on Jacks been the brunt of many of his barbs.it was good to see Sawyer get taken down a little.
Sawyers cool no doubt about it but he has been a jerk at times i.e "lardo,Jack ***".

I look at this eppys treatment of Sawyer as karmic retribution

Nicely put Ash! It was kind of nice to see Sawyer taken down a notch. And I'm sure we'll see plenty more witty barbs from him in the future, lol. It gives the show its comical aspects, other than Hurley of course!

Guys I completely agree that Sawyer deserved it...lol

But people keep saying that he could have asked Kate to leave...and he basically DID and she ignored him...plus technically doctors have to warn patients about confidential and private questions if it's going to be in front of other people. Then the patient decides whether or not they mind the other person being there.The prostitute question was totally out of left field so Sawyer had no opportunity to ask Kate to leave! :)

And again...the scene didn't bother me...I thought it was hilarious and I'm not at all Jack bashing...but getting into technicalities here...you can't really use the "Sawyer could have asked Kate to leave" excuse.. :)

Guys I completely agree that Sawyer deserved it...lol

But people keep saying that he could have asked Kate to leave...and he basically DID and she ignored him...plus technically doctors have to warn patients about confidential and private questions if it's going to be in front of other people. Then the patient decides whether or not they mind the other person being there.The prostitute question was totally out of left field so Sawyer had no opportunity to ask Kate to leave!* :)


To me the issue is between Kate & Sawyer in the event of confidentiality.....As someone else mentioned when a family member comes into a doctors visit w/the patient , the doctor doesn't say excuse me-I won't conduct my exam until you leave. It's the patient's right/responsibility to do that because they're the one who has to be comfortable with the presence of the someone in the examining room....Sawyer chose to answer the prostitute question. He's smart & knows by doing so Kate's gonna hear it...I don't think Sawyer really wanted to be alone w/Jack :laugh:

I too think he was being unprofessional. I'm usually all for Jack not accepting crap from Sawyer, but Sawyer was worried about a potential brain tumour. You don't take that lightly, especially if it runs in the family (and you're on a deserted island with no medical equiptment.) Asking LOST to be 100% realistic would is too much, but in the real world it's simply not acceptable behavior, period. He would so get fired. And not getting paid is not an excuse. :P

I don't feel like ganging up on Jack, though, so if it helps, I was equally annoyed with Kate. ;D

well, we will just have to agree to disagree! lol only about using sawyer could have asked kate to leave as an excuse...personally I think no excuse is needed. This is not a doctor/patient thing IMO...Jacks not being paid, hes volunteering to help because he can and because he possesses the knowledge to do so. They should all be thankful to have him there at all. So why, in such circumstances as they are in, should he be expected to be 100% professional? Why cant he joke around and have a good time? Just because before they crashed he was a doctor? Kate was the one who brought him to see Jack, he kind of needed her there as a reason. He would never admit to really needing Jacks help (which was evident when Kate has to basically drag him there) so Kate being there was his reason. It made it seem like he only came because SHE wanted him to, not because he needed help. Does that make sense?? It does to me, but I'm drinking coffee and rambling so...who knows? lol

ETA: just wanted to comment to Perion...you posted right before I posted this, lol...IMO Jack had already addressed the likelihood of it being a tumor. Sawyer wasnt having phantom smells and as Jack said, tumors dont usually run in the family. (If sawyer had said that 2 of his uncles had tumors, his mother had a tumor, and both sets of grandparents had tumors (all of the same kind) then I think Jack would have addressed the situation differently) As it was, there really wasnt much cause for concern by the time Jack examined him (and messed with him) at the caves. And you are right, in the real world it would be unacceptable.....they arent in the real world....they are on an island, so most things that are not "acceptable" in real life will become acceptable in the circumstances with which they face. WHEW...i'm done!

Yes, but there was no examining room and again....Sawyer never really gave his permission for Kate to be there...even indicated he didn't want her there. BUT he probably wasn't all that concerned because he had no idea that sexual history stuff woudl be an issue! (which as a doctor you make aware to your patients so they can properly decide if they'd rather be in private)

See....I understand what people are saying about "he could have not answered the quesion,"...but the point is that once it's asked it doesn't matter if he answers it or not! If he stayed silent Jack still said "I'll take that as a yes" and even if he didn't....Kate would know the answer to the question anyway becuase he didn't deny it. As soon as he asked her to leave, she would know it's because the answers were personal. That's why 'technically' to be professional you need to give the patient the privacy option BEFORE you ask the question... :)

But again...its' not a big deal...and Sawyer didn't hold a grudge anway *;D

But again...its' not a big deal...and Sawyer didn't hold a grudge anway *;D


Except for that thing about that con man whose name he took...and he was still angry with Hibbs when he met him.....I'm sure there are others. He just doesn't seem to hold a grudge on the island..

Which makes for a whole 'nother' topic....

Except for that thing about that con man whose name he took...and he was still angry with Hibbs when he met him.....I'm sure there are others. He just doesn't seem to hold a grudge on the island..

Which makes for a whole 'nother' topic....


well this is comparitively very small in relation to those other incidents... at the end where sawyer says, "you're loving this, aren't ya?", jack walks past him, pats him on the back a couple of times and says "you're welcome"... jack did him a favor, i'm sure sawyer realizes that

solidstealth....just had to say that I LOVE your avi! :lol2:

Elfdream ROFL....

No he DOES hold grudges...my god! I meant he doesn't hold a grudge against JACK in this particular instance...he seemd to get over it quickly *:lol2:

And JacknKate1 I do totally get where you're coming from! *:) For some reason I just like to argue semantics...

and you're right about Jack not having to uphold professional standards EXCEPT that he has made a point of upholding them SO FAR. He assured Hurley that doctor/patient confidentiality applied when he was having umm stomach problems *;)...and he was very professional in keeping Charlie's drug addiction betwee them. Plus I just get the impression that he has always maintained a professional demeanour when treating everyone else (like I doubt he would discuss any examination of Claire with anyone else). He set a precedent...SO when he was less than professional with Sawyer he was technically breaking that...

However in my opinion it was GOOD that he did act that way...gave Sawyer a taste of his own medicine. He had it coming!

I guess my thing is...why can't we say that it WAS unprofessional...but also "GOOD FOR HIM"?... ;D

I have to say while it was embarrassing & inappropriate, I'm quite surprised by how offended some ppl were over this. The island isn't a professional setting, Jack isn't required to treat ppl & he isn't getting paid...He's on call 24/7. I think ppl are mistaken to think that when doctors are techinically off duty, their family members/friends, even strangers aren't going-you know I have this rash can you take a look at it. And that they don't ever crack jokes or say something embarrassing. Are they patients as well? I think it's streching it to consider what he did a breach of the Hippocratic Oath...Out of line yes, but the exam wasn't confidential to begin with and when Jack is wearing a doctor's coat all the time on the island, the personal/professional wires are bound to cross because there's no where to draw the line...If like Hurley, Sawyer approached Jack in private & shared his problems-you know Jack would have kept quiet.* He's not a tattle or idle conversationalist over ppl's medical issues. Say did you hear Lance has a boil LOL....but Kate was there & he took advantage of it which is the 1st time we see him doing something on the offense like that.

Kate took it upon herself to get involved in Sawyer's business, just as she did with the boar hunt, & Sawyer was wishy washy about her coming along because he wanted her there. Probably secretly liked that she was doding on him.* If Sawyer had a problem with it, a real problem, he would have told her to get out as he did in Confidence Man when she figured out the letter.

I still think Jack should have told Kate to leave for a bit.

It was still funny though :D

solidstealth....just had to say that I LOVE your avi!* :lol2:


thanks, jacknkate ;)

CharliesAngel, Kate could have left too, or Sawyer could've told Kate to leave as well... he didn't mind her being there

I know that...but he knew the questions could be condescending.

I wasn't all that angry or offended. I agree with most who are upset about it *that Kate should not have been there. SAWYER DID ASK IF SHE HAD TO BE THERE....I don't think he wanted her there. *She should have taken the hint and just left. For a smart person she was awful clueless about this particular thing.

This is getting as bad as 'the Charlie shot Ethan/Sawyer shot the shrimp man/ debates......

Queen - Oh I totally see all your points! lol I guess I'm just arguing against the tiny technicalities.....but he we do agree that it was funny and good to see sawyer get a taste of his own medicine.

Bansh - nicely said....in their situation the lines between personal and professional will definitely be blurred

I think ppl are mistaken to think that when doctors are techinically off duty, their family members/friends, even strangers aren't going-you know I have this rash can you take a look at it. And that they don't ever crack jokes or say something embarrassing. Are they patients as well? I think it's streching it to consider what he did a breach of the Hippocratic Oath...

So true bansh.

This is getting as bad as 'the Charlie shot Ethan/Sawyer shot the shrimp man/ debates......
Your right elfdream.

Two things that just occured to me...

1. Remember that whole torture thing? How unprofessional was that? :P Talk about "Do no harm"... That was WAAAY worse than any silly prostitute questions, and Sawyer seems to have gotten over it.

2. Is it just me, or are all three of them (Jack, Kate, Sawyer) acting like they're in high-school? Sawyer is the bully, Jack is the smart kid, and Kate is the tomboy girl that likes the bad boy but wants to be with the smart kid. Hmm..

"So, are you two going to like, move into a cave together?"
"What, are we in high school?" :laugh:

Maybe the island reverts people's minds to childhood. :lol2:

Another thing... Maybe it's just my doctors, or doctors from NJ or something, but most docs I know LOVE cracking jokes. Nothing serious, like "You have cancer. HA HA, GOTCHA!", but they don't always take themselves very seriously. I think Jack is finally getting comfortable on the island, and if he's gonna joke around with anyone, the one who deserves it most is def. Sawyer.

I honestly can't believe this thread is still going, but I can't resist the desire to post any longer! *:laugh:

I'm not surprised that people took offense to Jack's actions. I think the whole point of the storyline was to shake things up a bit: put Jack on the offensive instead of the defensive for once and let him have a bit of fun!

IMHO:
-Jack didn't break his Hippocratic Oath. He helped Sawyer, he did everything in his power to fix his headaches. He had some fun at Sawyer's expense, but how may times has Sawyer done it to Jack? No one was hurt in the process. Sawyer's not holding a grudge, and the news didn't seem all that surprising to Kate anyway.
-I actually think it would have been wrong for Jack to ask Kate to leave, knowing that Sawyer was uncomfortable having to ask for his help in the first place. At least with her there it wasn't necessarily Sawyer asking for Jack's help, technically she was. That way Sawyer got to keep his pride and get rid of his headaches at the same time! *;)

I'm glad that we all agree that it was hilarious though! *:laugh:
Actually, I think it's awesome that the writers can make the 'comic relief' part so controversial. People seem to be talking more about this then the fact that Locke totally lied about what happend to Boone or that he's still keeping the hatch a secret. Very interesting if you ask me. *:)

2. Is it just me, or are all three of them (Jack, Kate, Sawyer) acting like they're in high-school? Sawyer is the bully, Jack is the smart kid, and Kate is the tomboy girl that likes the bad boy but wants to be with the smart kid. Hmm..

"So, are you two going to like, move into a cave together?"
"What, are we in high school?" :laugh:

Maybe the island reverts people's minds to childhood. :lol2:


This is why it's annoying. Please, we're lost on a desert island and you've only know these folks a month.... Please drop the high school "my dick is bigger than your's" crap. Do something realistic like try to solve one of the mysteries on the island.... We don't want Lost High.

I wouldn't agree w/the assessment that all they're doing is acting in high school.....Jack was often mentioned as not being interested in Kate because he was focusing so much on keeping everyone alive. He wasn't & still really hasn't indulged to an extensive degree in putting his love life ahead of everyone's needs...He deserves a little indulgence.

When do they really get to loosen up... Adults have this perception that when it comes to relationships it's all mature, civil & proper. Truth of the matter is sometimes adults act more like children than children do. So Jack made a few jokes, I don't see it as a big deal...Or if they get a bit smitten here & there. The interaction/posturing w/Jack & Sawyer is one of the best aspects imo......As was illustrated w.Hurley, life is about more than survival. And part of what JJ is trying to show is the human story-that in spite of their dire & horriffic circumstances, ppl still find humor, romance, & light hearted moments in the midst of all the tragedy. They'd go insane otherwise & hell if you're gonna be stuck on an island, may as well live a little if you may die there.

I agree Bansh! :)

Plus I may be one of the few people who falls into the camp where I care FAR more about the character interaction than the island mysteries. The mysteries are just decoration on a rich cake to me...

I'd watch the show and adore it if it were just about these 14 people and their interactions with eachother! ;D

PLEASE

I love the interaction between JACK & SAWYER

I see tho, its ok for Sawyer to toss the digs & wisecracks, but if Jack does it, its wrong

Unprofessional? I think not. He DID go out of his way to help him, right down to bringing the glasses to him. What he did was give Sawyer a little bit of his own medicine. Thats ok with me

I say it again...I love the stuff going on between these two....AND...its ok if now & then Jack resorts to acting like Sawyer....I can see how anyone would want to give it as good as he has gotten it. Jack is a doctor, but he is a Guy first

I loved those scenes

For the last time...those who objected are NOT objecting to the jokes. We NOT objecting for Jack's digs at Sawyer. We were objecting because KATE was in the room...or the cave..while all that was going on.

She should have LEFT and not waited to be asked to leave.

Its not really a Jack/Sawer thing as far as I'm concerned.

Well I would agree with that. Kate should NOT have been there at all

Well I thought the whole thing was pretty funny and I'm a Sawyer fan! I mean Jack was just pulling Sawyer around a little bit, just like Sawyer has done to everyone else, especially Jack. And if Sawyer wanted her to leave he would have told her. Ok that's my two cents, I'm sure many people have said the same thing as me but I had to say something.

Kate knows these two don't really like each other (Sawyer clearly doesn't want Jack's help but is a bit concerned about his health... Jack sees Sawyer as competition with Kate, so he could be the hero & have her admiration, while still having a little fun at Sawyer's expense)... she probably felt like she could be the referee in case of any fights & that's why she stayed in the cave. Or maybe she's just really likes to get in other peoples' business.

As for Jack being "unprofessional," I suppose things could be worse: he could've operated on a pregnant girl while being totally intoxicated and accidentally severed something that ultimately caused her death...

I totally agree with you Elfdream. I love the fact that Jack is joking with/getting back at Sawyer for all the wisecracks and mean things he has said and done in the past. I hope we get to see more of the joking around.

The problem is that the oath was violated. The oath specifically states that as a physician you agree to uphold your patients right to privacy and confidentiality. It's doesn't matter if you are in an office, at a house, in a cave or on an island. Jack does not need to wear his little white coat and have his stethescope on him in order for the oath to be in effect. It is always in effect, regardless of the circumstances or location.

Here are the reasons it was unethical:

1- He is a physician and took an oath (see above)
2- Sawyer DID NOT want Kate there. He asked if she had to be there. Jack should have told her to leave. Sawyer, at no time, gave Kate permission to be there or asked her to be there.
3- He has upheld confidentiality with other survivors when they have discussed a medical condition with him.
4- The questions he was asking where not being asked to help him determine what the diagnosis was. He asked for the simple reason that he wanted to embaress Sawyer if front of Kate.


I have a feeling the writers are going somewhere with this. (hopefully tonight!! ;D) They are probably all laughing there butts off at us debating the issue!!