Question i want answered is WHEN he started to make Locke's life so miserable?

for his entire life?

or since they met in season 2?

I kinda thought Ben was being sarcastic when he said that.... cuz now Locke is in charge of the Island and has all the power or whatever... and was Locke really miserable? No! he was loving following Ben around trying to find out all the Islands mysteries

well, he also made locke kill his dad in order to be able to join ben. although he didn't really kill his dad. he also shot him.

most telling line in the eppisode.

I thought it was a half a second where Ben let his guard down because he thought he was doing the 'greatest' good for the island by moving it and thus having to leave it. He was leaving behind the new island favored prophet, Locke, his daughter was dead, and everything had gone to *@&@& as far as he was concerned. Still...that scrappy Ben. Of course he would pop out in Tunisia and begin his Benryish ways anew...

The notion that he is later responsible for faking Locke's suicide (thus ending his "miserable" life) makes that one ounce of humanity in that statement all the more poignant.

I thought that was odd too... did he mean his whole life?

and what's this about faking his suicide?

could be the fact that the "mysteries of the island" caused Locke so much grief, e.g. Boone's death, his paralysis, becoming an outcast, killing his father, etc. I'm sure it goes much deeper, though..............

I felt once again Ben was lying because I don't think he felt sorry at all.

I actually think Ben was sincere. I think what he meant was since Locke crashed on the island he's been looking for meaning, looking for answers and Ben taunted him.
He never gave Locke what he wanted. Well, now Locke will find the answers for himself. I for one can't wait to see Locke as the leader of the others as well.

Fair enough...can't trust a psychopath.

You notice Ben didn't say he was sorry for making anyone ELSE miserable. For that bizarre pacemaker fakeout psychological torture of Sawyer. For making Juliet stay on the island. For killing the freighter people. For gassing the Dharmaites. For kidnapping children. Etc. etc. etc.

Maybe he's sorry he made Locke miserable because now he sees that Locke is the Chosen One.

This was one of the best lines for me. I took it to mean much further back than since the crash, especially with Richard appearing throughout Locke's life.
They maybe meddled with his upbringing to try and create a John Locke of their own design. The only way to do this was to make Emily give birth prematurely, have his mother and father abandon him, have him lose a kidney, lose the use of his legs and countless other things...
They did all this to him so that one day he would be ready to take over from Ben

This was one of the best lines for me. I took it to mean much further back than since the crash, especially with Richard appearing throughout Locke's life.
They maybe meddled with his upbringing to try and create a John Locke of their own design. The only way to do this was to make Emily give birth prematurely, have his mother and father abandon him, have him lose a kidney, lose the use of his legs and countless other things...
They did all this to him so that one day he would be ready to take over from Ben

Agreed.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I think Ben was being pretty genuine. Ben has, by this point, lost everything of importance to him -- his daughter (his only family), the blessing of his father figure (Jacob), his home, his role as a leader, his control over his own life (to an extent), and Juliet. I like to think that in that moment when he apologizes to Locke, he's saying something to the effect of, "What has happened to me is what we've been doing to you your whole life, and now I understand how screwed up it is."

Not that he was going to break down and cry or anything, but I do think there was some real humanity in his words.

I think it was he meant the next chapter of Johns life

I think Ben has been in a very weird headspace recently. His actions lead to the death of his daughter, and not just the miscalculation with Keamy in Otherville but everything leading up to that. If he hadn't have let Alex go with him to intersept the losties on the way to the radio tower she would be alive. He also thinks given the arrival of the freighties that it was a mistake to torture and terrorize the losties the last few months. He also has to be questioning his actions pre crash. And as far as he knows he won't be able to return to the island that has been his existance for a large part of his life. He has probably been thinking about what he could have done differently to prevent the current string of tragedies. It seemed to me a genuine apology on Ben's part, and he left him with words of encouragement.

Question i want answered is WHEN he started to make Locke's life so miserable?

for his entire life?

or since they met in season 2?

I just asked that same question yesterday in one of my post along with some other questions I'm curious about. I guess great minds think alike outside the box!

I actually think he felt really sorry and wanted to make amends before he left for good or for a long time. But, oh, who am I talking to, most of people here love the S1 characters and no one else, and still remember the little lying story we were once told about Ben being a bad guy who presumably killed a lot of people...tsk tsk tsk

You know... since we met Ben as "Henry Gale" (and doesn't that feel like forever ago now?), I've been subscribing to the belief that you can't trust a word he says.

Oh, boy... season four has destroyed that pretty completely. In season one, the Others in general were this shadowy threat who the Losties thought had been invented by Rousseau because, let's face it, that woman wasn't playing with a full deck of cards.

Season Two the Others had a face: Ben/"Henry". And we were told that he was a bad person who couldn't be trusted and had killed people. We didn't have the full picture (and still don't, actually) so we went along with it.

Season Three we were shown the Others (and Ben specifically) as "the bad guys who think they're the good guys". Torturing Sawyer... telling Locke he had to kill his father (revealing that even the kids had to "pass a test", i.e. kill, to join the group)... those were all calculated to make us think of Ben as The Big Bad. The flashback to his actions in the purge cements that impression.

But season four... we had a new Temporary Bad Guy in the form of Keamy, and suddenly our view of Ben as the Big Bad was looking a bit shaky, because Widmore was on the scene and we didn't know which side was which.

To get back to the point of this post... there have been a couple of points in the show where Ben has been honest and open about his feelings.

1) After Alex's death, he waits to say goodbye to her. And the look on his face after Keamy shot her? That was honest. Grief, shock, yes... but honest. No way could he fake that.
2) In the finale, apologising to Locke. I think that at that moment, he really wasn't thinking "how can I manipulate this guy to do what I want?" (which I get the feeling he does a lot), he was thinking "Hmm, I've made this guy miserable by manipulating him, and maybe I should have found another way that didn't make anyone miserable." And, regardless of what I might think privately, he's human. He has a conscience. And, probably, the various bad things he's done (for whatever reasons), are weighing on his conscience. I think he apologised to Locke because he wants forgiveness, he wants to have someone not hate him for his actions. He's been trying to do the right thing... and people have got hurt, physically and emotionally, because of that.

Hmm, it really seemed genuine to me when he said that. Of course, it's Ben. But maybe he was not so much referring to the past as to the future. More like an "I will have to leave the island now and you are now taking my position cleaning up my mess and that will be a miserable position to be in, with dire consequences". Which would tie in neatly with his comments before, almost to prepare Locke in a way for what is to come. "I used to have dreams" "destiny is a fickle female dog" etc.
But that is just my idea.

I think it was he meant the next chapter of Johns life

I too believe this is a flash forward comment rather than a present day or flash back. Ben knows what is coming while Locke, as usual, does not have a clue.

Hmm, it really seemed genuine to me when he said that. Of course, it's Ben. But maybe he was not so much referring to the past as to the future. More like an "I will have to leave the island now and you are now taking my position cleaning up my mess and that will be a miserable position to be in, with dire consequences". Which would tie in neatly with his comments before, almost to prepare Locke in a way for what is to come. "I used to have dreams" "destiny is a fickle female dog" etc.
But that is just my idea.

Agreed. I keep wondering, if he can no longer hear Jacob and he no longer has the dreams, who exactly is advising him what to do? Or is he just relying on his own self absorbed, obsessive understanding? I wonder how much good that can be for the island. When he said I hope you're happy now, Jacob, as he turned the frozen donkey wheel, it makes me think he believes Jacob is responsible for banishing him. I'm sure he has a plan to get back at Jacob too, as well as Jacob's new pet, John Locke.

And I love your screen name. It is certainly apropos for making comments about Ben Linus. :biggrin:

I know this is after the season finale, but I think that Ben is saying something regarding the future.

If Ben is sending the Island into the past, and Locke is going to become the new leader, or even Jacob, then Ben knows all the trouble he's going to cause when he comes to the Island. If history repeats itself, like it usually does, then Ben will be returning to the Island, but as a child. Is it possible, that he is apologizing for the trouble he causes or will cause Locke/Jacob?

Remember when Hurley asks Ben if he was responsible for the purge? Ben's response was, "I haven't always been in charge." I wonder if he was alluding to what the future holds for the Island with Locke in charge.....?

Thoughts?

Bens response to hurley was "it was thier leaderS" not one person.
my gut went right to the thought of locke's past.. that somehow he was influenced to take a path.. but again somthings can just be the simpliest of things..
as the past few months on the island.

I take it the deaths of those people was worthly of what they knew or coudl do if they were just fired! and sent home. this always make me wonder if that is why juilet hasnt been let go, she knows too much.
different thread..

Ben was all over the map emotionally. One moment he's wailing on Keamy like Jason Vorhees at the prom, the next he is completely void of any emotion when confronted about dooming the freighter folk.