Charlie, you have to die so that Claire and Aaron can get rescued! bah!

Yeah, that doesn't sit well with me either. I assume that we have probably now seen the last of Desmond (since he has his happy ending) so we may never know whether or not he lied to Charlie delibertly or not.

Can you really blame Desmond for lying? He wanted to see Penny again and this has-been rocker was going to die anyways...as much as I like Desmond, I think that's pretty much how it went down in his mind. Poor Charlie.

Yeah I'm still trying to figure that out. What ever happened to his flashes? They suddenly stopped, or was Desmond making up the whole thing?

I don't know what the writers are thinking, but Charlies death was pointless.

You are assuming that Desmond saw Claire get on Frank's helicopter. Desmond never said who else he saw getting on the helicopter besides Claire and Aaron. Perhaps, after the O6 get back, Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter at that point.

Before you blast TPTB for errors, sit back and wait to see how things play out.

Charlie's death was a long way from being pointless. And Desmond saw LOTS of things that he prevented, he saw Charlie die in all manner of ways, and none of those things came to pass. Perhaps if the island had not stepped in and Christian taking her away, then she would have gotten on the chopper.

I don't know, just seems like this isn't really worth getting so stuck on. Desmond saw lot of visions and most of them didn't come to pass how he saw them.

I think everyone on the island had a way of effecting his visions. So if something didn't go exactly the way it was suppose to, that could easily mislead one of his visions.

You are assuming that Desmond saw Claire get on Frank's helicopter. Desmond never said who else he saw getting on the helicopter besides Claire and Aaron. Perhaps, after the O6 get back, Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter at that point.

Before you blast TPTB for errors, sit back and wait to see how things play out.

I totally agree, I don't think TPTB will leave us in limbo about this situation, it will be addressed. I also don't think we have seen the last of Desmond. Afterall, Ben vowed to kill Penny, so Penny will still be in the show and so will Desmond. Ben will probably realize that Penny can help them get back to the Island.

We still have 2 seasons to go and look at all that's happened in the last 2 seasons. People got off the Island, the Island friggin moved, Desmond mind travelled, Richard is the ageless wonder, and The Others are now being led by Locke, that is until he left the Island and died as Jeremy Bentham. Lots can happen in 2 seasons and I'm sure Desmond's vision will be addressed. I know it's hard to wait, but it's what we need to do before we blast TPTB.

And uh


Why is it that you're so quick to jump the gun on this one and point it at desmond, what about the fact that claire is still on the island? What if they find it again, with say....

a helicopter?

She could certainly get on it then w/aaron, couldnt she? Two seasons left... dont write off one vision just yet....

If she gets on a helicopter at a later point, did Charlie really need to rush down and turn off the jammer for it to happen?

I don't think Charlie's death was meaningless at all. There was more cause and effect to be had from what he did than just Claire and Aaron getting off or not.

It was always my impression that Desmond these flashes and deduced from those flashes that Claire and Aaron were going to get on the helicopter. I really think he believed that. It's either that, or "Fate" has a flaw.

If she gets on a helicopter at a later point, did Charlie really need to rush down and turn off the jammer for it to happen?

Well yeah, because he was going to die anyway. Desmond had saved his life 4 times already so at least this time he died and served a purpose, people got off the Island, including Aaron. If he didn't die then, he would have died at a later time and then he might have died for nothing. He was marked for death, and at least he died sacrificing his life to save others. We need to look at the big picture, and not just look at Desmond sending Charlie to his death. Desmond wasn't the one trying to bump Charlie off, it was fate. Desmond was the one saving him.

Well, Boone did tell us in "Further Instructions" that Desmond was 'helping himself'. Perhaps he DID lie to Charlie because the vision he saw was himself with Penny and not Arron and Claire's rescue...

Desmond's happy ever after will be short lived, since Ben vowed to kill Widmore's
daughter (aka Penny).

Well, Boone did tell us in "Further Instructions" that Desmond was 'helping himself'. Perhaps he DID lie to Charlie because the vision he saw was himself with Penny and not Arron and Claire's rescue...

Well, I believe that "Further Instructions" was before Desmond started saving Charlie's life. Saving Charlie's life I don't think could be classified as "helping himself".

As im sure i dont have to remind most of you here, Des got charlie to go to the looking glass cause he said he saw claire get on the chopper and leave the island. As they've now left the island does this mean des was wrong and charlie basically died for nothing? Unless they plan on having her get on a chopper at the very end of the series in which case thats some huge foreshadowing.

I hope my suggestion is the case im not usually so nitpicky but this kinda just sticks out as a rather big point.

As im sure i dont have to remind most of you here, Des got charlie to go to the looking glass cause he said he saw claire get on the chopper and leave the island. As they've now left the island does this mean des was wrong and charlie basically died for nothing? Unless they plan on having her get on a chopper at the very end of the series in which case thats some huge foreshadowing.

I hope my suggestion is the case im not usually so nitpicky but this kinda just sticks out as a rather big point.

Desmond lied to Charlie. Desmond had a vision of himself in a raft, being rescued by Penny's boat. He's a selfish bastard, and there is ample evidence in his background to show that.

Well, Boone did tell us in "Further Instructions" that Desmond was 'helping himself'. Perhaps he DID lie to Charlie because the vision he saw was himself with Penny and not Arron and Claire's rescue...

OMG! I've been wondering about this since Desmond started having his flashes. I always though it was weird that Boone said this to Locke. I kept thinking there had to be some deeper meaning behind it.

lol. There's nothing to tell us for certain either way, but I think it's strange to call Desmond selfish. He put his life at risk multiple times for the plane crash survivors. Not to mention, he was about to go in Charlie's place down to the Looking Glass...

We know they are all going to go back to the island. So, Desmond could have seen Clair and Arron getting on the helo at that time. And yes, it was still necessary for Charlie to go down there and die to make it happen. Everything that has happened was made possible by Charlies actions.

Everyone loves Charlie and wants to be mad at the writers for this but just think about it and it will be alright. There have been plenty of dead characters, just because one is your favorite doesn't mean you are exempt from having to suffer. Just be glad that Charlie set the process in motion that will get them all saved eventually.

I really hope Charlie's death wasn't pointless. But it's beginning to feel that way for me....

:(

grrrr....
*angry face*

Charlie's death wasn't pointless, it ultimately led to the rescue of the oceanic 6.
So Claire didn' get on the helicopter, big deal! It just wasn't meant to be, let's remember that it was said Aaron was not meant to be raised by his biological mother.Desmond saw many deaths for Charlie and only one happened to be true. Plus, the story is far from over.

What interests me more, in relation to the title of the thread, is to recap who didn't get on the helicopter and stayed on the Island. Let's see:

- Frogurt, Steve/Scott and all the redshirts that were in the barracks are dead.
- I really hope for Jin's sake that he is dead because, now that the Island was moved, he really is in the middle of nowhere.
-Claire's fate remains unknown but we're pretty sure she's on the Island.
I'm guessing she is the misterious character that won't get star billing in the fifth season but will return in the sixth.
- Locke, who I guess is now the new leader of the Others since Richard Alpert finds him Special
- Cindy is with Zack & Emma with the Others.
- Rose & Bernard are on the beach
- So is Sawyer
- A few redshirts we don't know.

Wow, that's it for the survivors of 815!

But there are others who may want to get off the Island:
- Juliet
- Daniel & Charlotte.
- And Miles

Some of them (Locke, Miles, Alpert, Cindy, Rose) are apparentely happy to remain stuck on mistery island.
Juliette and Sawyer really wanted to go away.
Most Others like the Island but may be frustrated to not be able to contact the outside world anymore.
We now know that Ben wants to reunite the Oceanic 6 and dead Locke in order to go back (before Widmore, of course).
So, will the other islanders get away in another helicopter ? I don't think it's a very relevant question, there is so much more to this story.

Yyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeah... i've been wondering about this too the past couple weeks........

Again, LOTS of characters' deaths on this show have been pointless. And it irks me that, until now, some of you haven't noticed that Lost will contradict itself (meaning that it will make something that happened 6 episodes ago pointless because of the events of the current episode. Its happened before, where I have been left thinking "well then WTF was the point??") I'm sorry, but while Charlie was a likable, beloved character, he wasn't necessary to the greater mythology of the show. The same goes for Sawyer, IMO. (In before "OMG BUT SKATE HAS TO RAISE AARON ON THE ISLAND EVEN THOUGH THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE I SWEAR THEY DO!.")


edit: I'd also like to add that the more time goes by, the MORE I miss Boone & Shannon. So... Lost is hard. The end.

Well, I miss Mr. Eko most of all and his death was about as pointless as it gets.

But it still bugs me that Desmond's visions and Charlie's death took up so much screen time last year, to just be totally forgotten about this year.

Maybe Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter to go back to the island.

What is this now? 9th? 10th? thread about Desmond's lie to Charlie? And it reads just like all the other threads. Desmond lovers won't allow for the obvious. One of the few obvious things we've ever seen on Lost.

Sometime in S5, you will see a scene between Penny and Desmond, this I've spoken before. I can't think of any other way for the lie to come out, so I give it to Desmond and Penny.

Penny will ask Desmond about Charlie, the guy she talked to during that short interval before the signal was lost. She'll probably put it as, "Your friend, Charlie." At this point, Desmond will confess the entirety of his lie.

Then the Desmond lovers can start another thread to discuss how he didn't really mean it when he told Penny he lied.

Desmond didn't seem surprised that Claire didn't get on the chopper. I guess he wasn't telling the truth. But what else did he see? The dark future of the island? Jin dying? The sad life of the O6? A little too much for just being with his girlfriend.

Amongst all the conjecture, no one has mentioned that Aaron DID get on the helicopter.

Maybe that's what Desmond saw, and assumed Claire would be with Aaron. Or maybe it was too complicated to explain to Charlie at the moment.

Or MAYBE it's just a television show. You know, entertainment, not religion:eek2:

It might make more sense to wait and see what happens in the next two seasons.

I still suspect that Claire and Aaron will be on a helicopter together sometime before the end of LOST, and that it will be important to the plot. That's another thing they do . . . wait YEARS for the payoff.

"Don't you DARE bring him back! Don't you DARE!" -Claire to Kate in her dream on Aaron.

Didn't Kate say "Don't you DARE say we have to go back! Don't you DARE, Jack!" after Kate got out of her car and slapped Jack across the face at the airport?

Seems like Claire's been haunting Kate since that visit.


Poor Jack. Poor Kate.. Poor Aaron.. poor everyone.. actually..

Yeah, that doesn't sit well with me either. I assume that we have probably now seen the last of Desmond (since he has his happy ending) so we may never know whether or not he lied to Charlie delibertly or not.

Haven't the writers said that they are going to revisit Desmond's prison time and reasons in a future flashback? I agree that he's had his happy ending, and much like Boone, his character has lost its purpose, but I don't think we've seen the end of Desmond.

Besides, I like him too much.

Haven't the writers said that they are going to revisit Desmond's prison time and reasons in a future flashback? I agree that he's had his happy ending, and much like Boone, his character has lost its purpose, but I don't think we've seen the end of Desmond.

Besides, I like him too much.

Desmond's storyline may be ending, but Penelope's is just beginning. Desmond has to help hide her from Ben.

I was wondering the same thing, because, to me, the only possible redeeming part of the horror of Charlie dying was that Aaron and Claire would be getting onto a helicopter, as Des predicted. So, if that, in fact, did not happen, what does that say about Charlie's death and Des' "visions"? Are both meaningless, after all? What a waste.

I always felt Des lied to Charlie.

It doesn't make Charlie's sacrifice meaningless, however. His heart was true and the sacrifice real - his personal motivation to sacrifice himself for his friends and Claire and Aaron is what gives it meaning -- not the lie that got him there.

I think people underestimate the writers. Desmond's vision of Claire and Aaron getting onto the 'copter is too big of a MacGuffin to let lie. Remember that by the third season finale they knew their end date.

I'm going with a long setup.

Desmond lied to Charlie. Desmond had a vision of himself in a raft, being rescued by Penny's boat. He's a selfish model student, and there is ample evidence in his background to show that.

Yeouch! I think Desmond is one of the last people on that island who deserves to be called selfish. Eek.


From what we've seen of Desmond's visions, they are cloudy blurs... flashes of motion that are pretty hard to interpret, especially if you don't know what you're looking at. It's very possible he only had the impression of a woman getting on the chopper with Aaron and assumed it was Claire. Or, maybe he just saw Aaron and assumed Claire was there, too. Either way, there would have been no reason for him to lie about it to Charlie. I think Charlie would have been just as willing to save just Aaron, even if they weren't sure where Claire was in the image.

Maybe Desmond's vision was changed by Christian Shepard who intervened and prevented claire from getting on the helicopter

Desmond lied to Charlie. Desmond had a vision of himself in a raft, being rescued by Penny's boat. He's a selfish model student, and there is ample evidence in his background to show that.
Yeah, exactly. That's why he offered to go down to the Looking Glass instead of Charlie. That's why he went down when he woke up after Charlie knocked him out. Sure. How dare he be so selfish? :D

One problem...

We don't know what he saw. We've only ever seen him acting on what he saw...

a) He may have seen a group of people - including Aaron - on the helicopter, and assumed that it was Claire holding the baby when it was actually Kate.
b) He may have seen Claire & Aaron on the chopper, but events were changed by Christian - he can't control everything to make sure it happens the way he saw it.
c) The finale set up the cast for everyone who left to return to the Island. If that includes Locke's body, then it certainly includes Aaron (possibly Ji Yeon as well). What he saw may not have happened yet. Perhaps in S5 or S6, Claire and Aaron get into a helicopter together.

Yeah, exactly. That's why he offered to go down to the Looking Glass instead of Charlie. That's why he went down when he woke up after Charlie knocked him out. Sure. How dare he be so selfish? :D

He dove down because Mikhail was shooting at him...

Are we all forgetting Desmond hightailing it out of the hatch the minute Jack and John showed up and were willing to push the button??

He dove down because Mikhail was shooting at him...
Do you really think that he would have stayed on the kayak and waited for Charlie's death if Mikhail hadn't shown up?

Are we all forgetting Desmond hightailing it out of the hatch the minute Jack and John showed up and were willing to push the button??
He was down there for three years. I don't think anyone would have stayed if they were in Desmond's place.

I myself am not the biggest Desmond fan (in fact he was one of my least favorite characters in season three), but I don't think he deserves being called selfish or a coward, because the writers are simply trying to make us forget they ever mentioned the "prophecy" with Claire and Aaron. We've seen him with Aaron on the freighter several times and he never said anything, not because he doesn't care, but because Darlton suddenly decided to make Claire disappear into the jungle. There's always the possibility that the vision will come true some time in the future, but I very much dbout it.

Remember when Desmond "saw" Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter in one of his flashes? Since Charlie sacrificed himself, and everything else Desmond has seen has come true, how is it possible at this point, for Claire to take Aaron on a helicopter? I'm confused (which is often!).

I'm reluctant to say it because Desmond is one of my favorite characters, but I think Desmond was flat out lying to Charlie. He sent Charlie to The Looking Glass for his own gain. Remember the episode when Locke couldn't talk and he had a dream of Boone pushing him in his wheelchair? Boone told Locke not to worry about Desmond because he was "taking care of himself." If I remember correctly, Desmond was talking with two women in that scene. I wonder if those two women are the same ones that were in The Looking Glass?

Ohh, I love Desmond too, and I have a hard time believing that he was lying. I can't remember, but didn't we see a little clip of that happening in that episode? Sometimes we could see Desmond's flashes (as viewers) and sometimes we couldn't. We all know how deeply in love he is with Penny, but do you think he would really do that to Charlie to see her again?

Maybe he thought that somehow he could have Charlie contact the freighter and then save him. Until I see Claire and Aaron getting onto a helicopter, I will believe Desmond used Charlie.

Out of his 6 or so flahses we only saw 1. All the rest were true., I see no reason why this time and only this time would be a lie. The show is not over. Penny's helicopter could still take Claire and Aaron off the island as it is evident Aaron needs to go back to the island.

I'm leaning towards Desmond using Charlie at that point too. I think Desmond spent so much time trying to save Charlie, and then in the end he realized Charlie was really meant to die and there was nothing he could do about it. If he continued to save him, things would not "be right". Maybe it was just something he told Charlie to make it easier for Charlie to sacrifice himself?

I'm leaning towards Desmond using Charlie at that point too. I think Desmond spent so much time trying to save Charlie, and then in the end he realized Charlie was really meant to die and there was nothing he could do about it. If he continued to save him, things would not "be right". Maybe it was just something he told Charlie to make it easier for Charlie to sacrifice himself?


If he was just using Charlie then why did he try to take his place. Only by being knocked out, did it stop him from taking Charlie's place. It makes no sense what your saying because he tried to take his place.

I thought perhaps he changed his mind in the last minute - at first he was planning of letting Charlie go through with it, but at the critical point he realized he couldn't and was trying to take his place.

If he was just using Charlie then why did he try to take his place. Only by being knocked out, did it stop him from taking Charlie's place. It makes no sense what your saying because he tried to take his place.

He tried to take his place because he knew the jammer had to be turned off so he could be with Penny. He didn't see himself dying, so he probably didn't feel he was in any danger.

He tried to take his place because he knew the jammer had to be turned off so he could be with Penny. He didn't see himself dying, so he probably didn't feel he was in any danger.


That makes no sense. If that's the case then why even tell Charlie what he had to do. If he had no worry about death and figured he could do it, then why didn't he just go do it and come back before anyone noticed.

Out of his 6 or so flahses we only saw 1. All the rest were true., I see no reason why this time and only this time would be a lie. The show is not over. Penny's helicopter could still take Claire and Aaron off the island as it is evident Aaron needs to go back to the island.


If this is true. It means you only watch the show every now and again, or get up for crackers at the wrong times...

I thought perhaps he changed his mind in the last minute - at first he was planning of letting Charlie go through with it, but at the critical point he realized he couldn't and was trying to take his place.That's my feeling too. I think, as others have mentioned, that he did know Charlie was going to die anyway and so thought he might as well die in this way. But, because he is a good guy, he couldn't help but try to save Charlie one last time.

If he was just using Charlie then why did he try to take his place. Only by being knocked out, did it stop him from taking Charlie's place. It makes no sense what your saying because he tried to take his place.

Remember the arrow vision with Charlie getting hit in the throat? Remember Desmond pulled everybody from that vision together to be sure it happened as he saw it? remember at the last minute he (Desmond) couldn't go through with it and pushed Charlie out of the way?

Same here, at the last minute, he couldn't go through with it, but Charlie bonked him on the head. Desmond only went to the station after Patchy started shooting at him.
To say he wanted to do it instead of Charlie is to overlook his own past actions.

If there was any vision at all, other than Charlie and the yellow light...which we saw as a vision...then the remainder of this vision is Desmond seeing himself with Penny as a result of Charlie's actions....and whattayaknow...Desmond and Penny get together in the season finale. What an amazing coincidence...didn't see that coming. Yeah, right.

That makes no sense. If that's the case then why even tell Charlie what he had to do. If he had no worry about death and figured he could do it, then why didn't he just go do it and come back before anyone noticed.

Because he saw Charlie do it and thought that was the way it was supposed to be done. Once he and Charlie got there, he had second thoughts like the many other times he saved Charlie's life. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping Desmond wasn't lying to Charlie. But based on Desmond's past actions of doing anything to be with Penny and the fact that he got off the island instead of Claire, I think Desmond was lying.

If this is true. It means you only watch the show every now and again, or get up for crackers at the wrong times...


Ok, other than his flash in catch-22 please explain to me what other flashes we saw.

When did we see:

1. Charlie being struck by lighting
2.Charlie drowning to save Claire
3. Charlie falling off a rock and drowning trying to get a bird for Claire
4. Anything about the looking glass.

So when exactly did we see anything other than what was in Catch-22? Please enlighten me?
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Because he saw Charlie do it and thought that was the way it was supposed to be done. Once he and Charlie got there, he had second thoughts like the many other times he saved Charlie's life. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping Desmond wasn't lying to Charlie. But based on Desmond's past actions of doing anything to be with Penny and the fact that he got off the island instead of Claire, I think Desmond was lying.

Ok, what are all these past actions to be with Penny that he did. The only one I can think of is refusign to go back to the island in season 4 and the season 2 opener when he ran to his boat and left everyone else there. The first I agree with, the second was understanable.

I mean he turned a key knowing in his mind he would never see Penny again. He did it to save everyone else. He left Penny a second time because of what Ms.Harting(sp) said, he saved Charlie from an arrow when it ment Penny would be there if he let Charlie die. He helped Sayid, Michael and all those readshirts get to the frieghter.

So what are these instances you are taking about.
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Remember the arrow vision with Charlie getting hit in the throat? Remember Desmond pulled everybody from that vision together to be sure it happened as he saw it? remember at the last minute he (Desmond) couldn't go through with it and pushed Charlie out of the way?

Same here, at the last minute, he couldn't go through with it, but Charlie bonked him on the head. Desmond only went to the station after Patchy started shooting at him.
To say he wanted to do it instead of Charlie is to overlook his own past actions.

If there was any vision at all, other than Charlie and the yellow light...which we saw as a vision...then the remainder of this vision is Desmond seeing himself with Penny as a result of Charlie's actions....and whattayaknow...Desmond and Penny get together in the season finale. What an amazing coincidence...didn't see that coming. Yeah, right.


Ok, how does any of that corralate to him lying about ONLY this vision?

Charlie went through with this on his own. Desmond told him what happened and what would happen to him and Charlie choose to go. Desmond gave him an out. So again, where is the lying coming from.

Ok, other than his flash in catch-22 please explain to me what other flashes we saw.

When did we see:

1. Charlie being struck by lighting
2.Charlie drowning to save Claire
3. Charlie falling off a rock and drowning trying to get a bird for Claire
4. Anything about the looking glass.

So when exactly did we see anything other than what was in Catch-22? Please enlighten me?

I shall:

When Desmond was explaining to Charlie why some of his (Desmond's) actions seemed curious, for lack of better terminology, Desmond finally explains to Charlie why he (Desmond) had been acting the way he has. As the explanations occur, during that conversation, as Desmond tells the tale, we visually see what he is saying to Charlie.
We see the lightning, the drowning, the bird.

Episodes later, we see the first half of the Looking Glass incident, the Charlie part, but we never ever see in any visual or explanatory form of the second part of this alleged vision, which is Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper. It is never given as a visual, as were the above, after the fact as explained by Desmond, or before the fact, as when we see Desmond's arrow vision. This one vision, Claire and Aaron, stands alone, with absolutely no further explanation or context, visual or otherwise.

I shall:

When Desmond was explaining to Charlie why some of his (Desmond's) actions seemed curious, for lack of better terminology, Desmond finally explains to Charlie why he (Desmond) had been acting the way he has. As the explanations occur, during that conversation, as Desmond tells the tale, we visually see what he is saying to Charlie.
We see the lightning, the drowning, the bird.

Episodes later, we see the first half of the Looking Glass incident, the Charlie part, but we never ever see in any visual or explanatory form of the second part of this alleged vision, which is Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper. It is never given as a visual, as were the above, after the fact as explained by Desmond, or before the fact, as when we see Desmond's arrow vision. This one vision, Claire and Aaron, stands alone, with absolutely no further explanation or context, visual or otherwise.


Again, what episode did we actually see his visions and not just him telling us? Other than Catch-22. What episodes did this happen in?

Maybe Des just saw the back of Frank's head and thought it was Claire? I don't care if Des lied or not, Charlie dying in the Looking Glass was a lot more noble than falling in the water trying to catch a bird. I can live with it.

Again, what episode did we actually see his visions and not just him telling us? Other than Catch-22. What episodes did this happen in?

For crying outloud...do your own homework. Find the episode where Desmond explains his visions to Charlie. Specifically, the ones you asked about.

For crying outloud...do your own homework. Find the episode where Desmond explains his visions to Charlie. Specifically, the ones you asked about.


Dude, I am asking you for proof because what you are saying never happened. EVER! That's why I want you to tell me where it was from. The only vision we saw was in Catch-22.

Dude, I am asking you for proof because what you are saying never happened. EVER! That's why I want you to tell me where it was from. The only vision we saw was in Catch-22.


As time permits...hopefully this thread will not disappear before then. I do have a tendancy to lose them...threads I mean. No, not clothes...threads...

Desmond joined the military to prove to Charles Widmore that he wasn't a coward. He entered an around the world boat race so he could be with Penny. Those two things alone are huge, life changing events. He is willing to put that much time and effort into proving his love for Penny. Why do you think he wouldn't do something as quick and easy as letting someone succumb to their fate? Charlie was going to die unless Desmond kept saving him. It got to a point where Charlie's death would benefit Desmond, so instead of continuing to delay the inevitable, Desmond just let it happen.

Desmond joined the military to prove to Charles Widmore that he wasn't a coward. He entered an around the world boat race so he could be with Penny. Those two things alone are huge, life changing events. He is willing to put that much time and effort into proving his love for Penny. Why do you think he wouldn't do something as quick and easy as letting someone succumb to their fate? Charlie was going to die unless Desmond kept saving him. It got to a point where Charlie's death would benefit Desmond, so instead of continuing to delay the inevitable, Desmond just let it happen.

Ok, stop. He did not let it happened. Charlie CHOOSE to die. By saying what you are, you are totally removing the heroic aspect of Charlie's death. He didn't just die, he choose to die in self sacrifice. Charlie's choose it, it didn't just happen to him.
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Also what about his flash from Locke's speech. We never saw that flash either.

I'm reluctant to say it because Desmond is one of my favorite characters, but I think Desmond was flat out lying to Charlie. He sent Charlie to The Looking Glass for his own gain. Remember the episode when Locke couldn't talk and he had a dream of Boone pushing him in his wheelchair? Boone told Locke not to worry about Desmond because he was "taking care of himself." If I remember correctly, Desmond was talking with two women in that scene. I wonder if those two women are the same ones that were in The Looking Glass?

Alas, no. But that would have been great! :)

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1185-178.html

Ok, stop. He did not let it happened. Charlie CHOOSE to die. By saying what you are, you are totally removing the heroic aspect of Charlie's death. He didn't just die, he choose to die in self sacrifice. Charlie's choose it, it didn't just happen to him.
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Also what about his flash from Locke's speech. We never saw that flash either.

I'm not trying to downplay Charlie's sacrifice at all. He absolutely chose to accept his fate. But to say that Desmond didn't let him do it is just wrong. Desmond could have let Charlie get struck by lightning, but he didn't. He could have let Charlie drown, but he didn't. He could have let Charlie get shot in the throat with an arrow, but he didn't. He changed his mind about letting Charlie go down to The Looking Glass, but got knocked out before he could stop him. Charlie chose to sacrifice himself, but was only able to because Desmond let him

I'm reluctant to say it because Desmond is one of my favorite characters, but I think Desmond was flat out lying to Charlie. He sent Charlie to The Looking Glass for his own gain. Remember the episode when Locke couldn't talk and he had a dream of Boone pushing him in his wheelchair? Boone told Locke not to worry about Desmond because he was "taking care of himself." If I remember correctly, Desmond was talking with two women in that scene. I wonder if those two women are the same ones that were in The Looking Glass?


"I agree with you completely. Desmond's whole motivation for leaving the island was purely selfish on his part and nothing at all to do with Lostie rescue other than that it was coincidental to his reunification with Penny. Desmond knew that whoever went down into the Looking Glass to push the button was going to drown and he made very sure it wasn't him who did the drowning by sending Charlie instead as he wanted to be very much alive and breathing when Penny showed up. Telling Charlie that he had "seen" Claire and Aaron get on the rescue helicopter was the lie he told Charlie in order to motivate him into doing it."

I'm not trying to downplay Charlie's sacrifice at all. He absolutely chose to accept his fate. But to say that Desmond didn't let him do it is just wrong. Desmond could have let Charlie get struck by lightning, but he didn't. He could have let Charlie drown, but he didn't. He could have let Charlie get shot in the throat with an arrow, but he didn't. He changed his mind about letting Charlie go down to The Looking Glass, but got knocked out before he could stop him. Charlie chose to sacrifice himself, but was only able to because Desmond let him


How did he let him? He told him what was coming. How is that in anyway letting him do it? Letting him do it would be telling him he had to go down there but not tell him what was coming. All he did was give Charlie info about his vision which might I remind you Charlie knew that he hadf a vision and demanded to know about it. How is giving him info about what the vision was the same as making him do it?
100%
"I agree with you completely. Desmond's whole motivation for leaving the island was purely selfish on his part and nothing at all to do with Lostie rescue other than that it was coincidental to his reunification with Penny. Desmond knew that whoever went down into the Looking Glass to push the button was going to drown and he made very sure it wasn't him who did the drowning by sending Charlie instead as he wanted to be very much alive and breathing when Penny showed up. Telling Charlie that he had "seen" Claire and Aaron get on the rescue helicopter was the lie he told Charlie in order to motivate him into doing it."


Again, where are you getting this being a lie from. What indication at all do we have that he lied. Other than it has yet to happen, but last I checked, just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.

Selfish??? So explain to me what turning the key was all about? How was that selfish?

Considering we didn't see the vision, he may have just seen a woman holding a baby and assumed it was Claire. Puzzle pieces, not the whole picture on the box.

Considering we didn't see the vision, he may have just seen a woman holding a baby and assumed it was Claire. Puzzle pieces, not the whole picture on the box.


very true. or it could still happen.

When Des had his Catch 22 vision he saw Charlie take an arrow, but he also saw Charlie standing by the parachute after they found Naomi. It's possible he saw possible outcomes and nothing definite. Des is good.

He let him because he put it in Charlie's head that sacrificing himself would save Claire and Aaron. It didn't. It saved Desmond and Aaron. Until Claire and Aaron fly away on a helicopter, this is all we know.

Remember the episode when Locke couldn't talk and he had a dream of Boone pushing him in his wheelchair? Boone told Locke not to worry about Desmond because he was "taking care of himself." If I remember correctly, Desmond was talking with two women in that scene. I wonder if those two women are the same ones that were in The Looking Glass?
OOOOOO i love this idea ! I always wondered what Boone meant when he said that and was waiting for the moment 2 be revealed... you could be right. But i love Desmond :frown: lol.

He let him because he put it in Charlie's head that sacrificing himself would save Claire and Aaron. It didn't. It saved Desmond and Aaron. Until Claire and Aaron fly away on a helicopter, this is all we know.


What we know is that Desmond has yet to lie about one of his visions and he said he saw Claire and Aaron get on a copter. So it means it will happen, its only a matter of time.

He let him because he put it in Charlie's head that sacrificing himself would save Claire and Aaron. It didn't. It saved Desmond and Aaron. Until Claire and Aaron fly away on a helicopter, this is all we know.

It save Des and Aaron - and Sun and Sayid and Hurley and Kate and Jack. It's not like Des kicked them all off the copter.

How did he let him? He told him what was coming. How is that in anyway letting him do it? Letting him do it would be telling him he had to go down there but not tell him what was coming. All he did was give Charlie info about his vision which might I remind you Charlie knew that he hadf a vision and demanded to know about it. How is giving him info about what the vision was the same as making him do it?
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Again, where are you getting this being a lie from. What indication at all do we have that he lied. Other than it has yet to happen, but last I checked, just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.

Selfish??? So explain to me what turning the key was all about? How was that selfish?

It save Des and Aaron - and Sun and Sayid and Hurley and Kate and Jack. It's not like Des kicked them all off the copter.

Obviously. All I'm saying is other than a few instances of chivalry, Desmond is pretty much all about looking out for number 1. Boone flat out tells Locke in his vision that Desmond is "taking care of himself." I would love to see Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter at the end of the series and fly away. Unfortunately, there is no evidence, other than Desmond's words to Charlie, that this will happen. Desmond got on a helicopter and flew away. That is what he saw in his vision. That is why he talked Charlie into going down to The Looking Glass.

Obviously. All I'm saying is other than a few instances of chivalry, Desmond is pretty much all about looking out for number 1. Boone flat out tells Locke in his vision that Desmond is "taking care of himself." I would love to see Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter at the end of the series and fly away. Unfortunately, there is no evidence, other than Desmond's words to Charlie, that this will happen. Desmond got on a helicopter and flew away. That is what he saw in his vision. That is why he talked Charlie into going down to The Looking Glass.


You know stuff about Lost that none of us know about? Are these spoilers? If so, you should not be posting them here, its against the rules? Cause what you are stating as fact never happened. So are you implying this is going to happen and you know about it?

If not, then how on earth can you know what Desmond saw in his vision when none of us know. Or how he was lying about it when he NEVER lied about a vision before.

Please explain to me how any of this is just not you guessing and not using and logic we have seen to supoort your theory?

Maybe when they go back to the island, claire and aaron get on the helicopter and leave together

What we know is that Desmond has yet to lie about one of his visions and he said he saw Claire and Aaron get on a copter. So it means it will happen, its only a matter of time.

Desmond lied to Charlie repeatedly about his Catch-22 vision.

Personally I didn't feel like Charlie had a choice. Desmond told him he would die no matter what he did. After his Looking Glass vision he said "This time you have to die" otherwise there wouldn't be any rescue. Yes, at the last minute Desmond gave Charlie a way out, but only after Charlie gone through a process of preparing himself for death and conditioning him to believe it had to happen to save his loved ones. Emotionally that is like pushing someone off a cliff and then saying they don't have to hit the bottom.

I don't want to downplay Charlie's heroism either, but I think people downplay the pressure/emotional blackmail that was placed on Charlie. His "fate" was very cruel. I know many other characters recieved cruel deaths, but Charlie was led to believe his death would achieve a greater good and that was the only reason he submitted to it. It feels like he was brainwashed.

I hate that I'm starting to wish Des had just let Charlie drown saving Claire. Strike that, we got to see Des (bronzed and beautiful) carry her up the beach. Okay, I'll hate that I wish he had let Charlie drown catching a bird.

Desmond lied to Charlie repeatedly about his Catch-22 vision.

Personally I didn't feel like Charlie had a choice. Desmond told him he would die no matter what he did. After his Looking Glass vision he said "This time you have to die" otherwise there wouldn't be any rescue. Yes, at the last minute Desmond gave Charlie a way out, but only after Charlie gone through a process of preparing himself for death and conditioning him to believe it had to happen to save his loved ones. Emotionally that is like pushing someone off a cliff and then saying they don't have to hit the bottom.

I don't want to downplay Charlie's heroism either, but I think people downplay the pressure/emotional blackmail that was placed on Charlie. His "fate" was very cruel. I know many other characters recieved cruel deaths, but Charlie was led to believe his death would achieve a greater good and that was the only reason he submitted to it. It feels like he was brainwashed.


He never told Charlie his vision was a lie. He lied to Charlie, not about his vision. Everything we were shown in his vision came true. So he never lied about the vision, he just lied to Charlie.

So now its Desmond's fault that the universe was trying to kill Charlie? Yeah, that makes sense. Well then I guess its Roses fault Charlie dies because she was with him on the plane? Desmond told Charlie that no matter what he did, he was going to die. What the hell is the guy supposed to do? Charlie was hounding him none stop about what was going on and Desmond told him. Yet some how by telling him what is in store for him, Desmond is now selfish.

Desmond never said if you don't die, then there is no chance of rescue. Once again, your putting words in his mouth. He never stated this was their only chance of rescue. He told Charlie about his vision because.... HE ASKED DESMOND ABOUT IT!!! What should Desmond have done? Please tell me what would have been unselfish here when Charlie WANTS, repeat WANTS to know about the vision.


Again Desmond NEVER said Charlie had to do it or they would be stuck for life. He told him the vision and Charlie choose to follow it through. Your twisting everything here just to fit it into your arguement. Your putting words in Desmond's mouth and making up actions he never did.

I do remember Des saying "you have to die this time" or something to that effect. But again, he only got small pictures of what was happening, I'm sure he thought it did mean rescue for everyone if Charlie turned off the jammer.

I shall:

When Desmond was explaining to Charlie why some of his (Desmond's) actions seemed curious, for lack of better terminology, Desmond finally explains to Charlie why he (Desmond) had been acting the way he has. As the explanations occur, during that conversation, as Desmond tells the tale, we visually see what he is saying to Charlie.
We see the lightning, the drowning, the bird.

Episodes later, we see the first half of the Looking Glass incident, the Charlie part, but we never ever see in any visual or explanatory form of the second part of this alleged vision, which is Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper. It is never given as a visual, as were the above, after the fact as explained by Desmond, or before the fact, as when we see Desmond's arrow vision. This one vision, Claire and Aaron, stands alone, with absolutely no further explanation or context, visual or otherwise.

I think you're missing havok's point, which is that the only time we saw Desmond's visions before they happened was in the Catch-22 (S3E17) episode. When Desmond explains to Charlie what's been going on (in S3E08, FBYE), he is citing the incidents that have already happened (lightning, Claire almost drowning), and we see glimpses of those scenes because they already happened on the show. Desmond doesn't mention the bird, and we don't see the bird (that incident doesn't take place until Par Avion, S3E12). In Par Avion, Desmond mentions his vision beforehand, but we don't actually see a vision of it.

And in TTLG, we still didn't see any of Desmond's visions before they actually happened. We only saw events within the Looking Glass station as they happened.

So havok is right - we only saw one of Desmond's visions before it occurred on the show.

not to mention he tried to save charlie when he locked himself in the room even though according to him that it would change his vision, he still tried. Although he couldn't break the glass.

Yeah, the only visions they showed were the ones connected with finding Naomi.

Desmond never said if you don't die, then there is no chance of rescue. Once again, your putting words in his mouth. He never stated this was their only chance of rescue.

DESMOND: If you don't, none of it will happen. There won't be any rescue. I'm sorry, brother, but this time--this time you have to die.

You are putting words in my mouth because I never said Desmond is selfish in my post. Nor did I say it was Desmonds fault the universe wanted to kill Charlie. I wasn't even talking about Desmond. I was saying that Charlie only went to his death willingly because of what Desmond's visions were leading him to believe. So there's no need to fly off the handle at me.

I'm not twisting anything. I know this story very well. Desmond/Charlie were my favourite characters in S3.

DESMOND: If you don't, none of it will happen. There won't be any rescue. I'm sorry, brother, but this time--this time you have to die.

You are putting words in my mouth because I never said Desmond is selfish in my post. Nor did I say it was Desmonds fault the universe wanted to kill Charlie. I wasn't even talking about Desmond. I was saying that Charlie only went to his death willingly because of what Desmond's visions were leading him to believe. So there's no need to fly off the handle at me.

I'm not twisting anything. I know this story very well. Desmond/Charlie were my favourite characters in S3.


I'm not flying off the handle but you act like harlie had no choice. He choose to die. He did himself. Yet somehow this is causing everyone to say Desmond is selfish. I don;t get where the selfishness is coming from.

You know stuff about Lost that none of us know about? Are these spoilers? If so, you should not be posting them here, its against the rules? Cause what you are stating as fact never happened. So are you implying this is going to happen and you know about it?

If not, then how on earth can you know what Desmond saw in his vision when none of us know. Or how he was lying about it when he NEVER lied about a vision before.

Please explain to me how any of this is just not you guessing and not using and logic we have seen to supoort your theory?

there is no need to be so rude. to the point is one thing but rude is just not acceptable.

as for your questions, none of that is a spoiler. so please put away the rudeness and stop demanding everyone bow to your logic or whatever you want to call it. you can debate and discuss without belittling everyone with whom you disagree or find errors in their comments.

there is no need to be so rude. to the point is one thing but rude is just not acceptable.

as for your questions, none of that is a spoiler. so please put away the rudeness and stop demanding everyone bow to your logic or whatever you want to call it. you can debate and discuss without belittling everyone with whom you disagree or find errors in their comments.

Well my bad. He was stating it as fact. He was stating it like it was definate. I took it the wrong way obviously. So my bad.

Thanks Halfrek.

I think Charlie was prepared to die for his loved ones, but to say Charlie chose to die suggests he had free will and I don't think free will exists in Lost verse, not for any character. That is the impression the show has given me. One of the last things Charlie said was "So much for fate". He clearly didn't want fate to kill him. Fate just won like it always does on Lost.

Thanks Halfrek.

I think Charlie was prepared to die for his loved ones, but to say Charlie chose to die suggests he had free will and I don't think free will exists in Lost verse, not for any character. That is the impression the show has given me. One of the last things Charlie said was "So much for fate". He clearly didn't want fate to kill him. Fate just won like it always does on Lost.


desmond proved there is free will by saving Charlie numerous times.

There seems to be a balance or free--will and destiny.

I think it could be argued that Charlie chose that particular scenario to die. He could have let Des prevent his death again by going down but he knew it was only a delay tactic and he would still be in danger. I think people (okay me) get frustrated that people accuse Des of just setting Charlie up when Charlie was going to die one way or the other. Des didn't want him to die, this vision just made him think it should happen to save everyone.

At this point, I think Desmond was talking about the future. IIRC, Desmond told Charlie he didn't know WHEN his vision would happen, just that it would come true as a result of Charlie's sacrifice. It seems like Jack is going to try and convince Kate to go back to the island, and she needs to bring Aaron with her. Claire may still be alive. Desmond could have easily seen Claire carry an older Aaron onto the helicopter.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1789063&postcount=55

Looking back at the conversation, I take Charlie's "when" to mean when would Charlie need to flip the switch and die, not when would the rescue could occur. Desmond said he didn't know. But that could also be taken as evidence that Desmond doesn't know before hand when ANY of his visions will occur. Just that he goes along until he recognizes the events that happen in his vision, or until he acts to make the circumstances of the vision occur (such as the hike out to greet Naomi).

I think it could be argued that Charlie chose that particular scenario to die. He could have let Des prevent his death again by going down but he knew it was only a delay tactic and he would still be in danger. I think people (okay me) get frustrated that people accuse Des of just setting Charlie up when Charlie was going to die one way or the other. Des didn't want him to die, this vision just made him think it should happen to save everyone.

The big problem is that in S4 Desmond hasn't mentioned Charlie even once. This is the writers failing more so than the chararacters. Desmonds entire S3 story was about his flashes of Charlies death. It was a major story and the writers have just dropped it. In my opinion it's completely out of character for Desmond to instantly forget Charlie and his flashes and move on like it's all done and dusted, even though the Claire/Aaron part of his vision never came true. All the writers needed to do was have Desmond reflect on his visions/Charlies death. Damon actually said they were gonna do this. But they didn't. So now there is confusion and plotholes.

The big problem is that in S4 Desmond hasn't mentioned Charlie even once. This is the writers failing more so than the chararacters. Desmonds entire S3 story was about his flashes of Charlies death. It was a major story and the writers have just dropped it. In my opinion it's completely out of character for Desmond to instantly forget Charlie and his flashes and move on like it's all done and dusted, even though the Claire/Aaron part of his vision never came true. All the writers needed to do was have Desmond reflect on his visions/Charlies death. Damon actually said they were gonna do this. But they didn't. So now there is confusion and plotholes.

I agree that Desmond should have mentioned Charlie, but frankly, Desmond, except in the constant was hardly used in S4. Too much Ben. :rolleyes:

I hope though, I really do, that Desmond's flash florward was correct, and that in some point in the future, we will absolutely see Claire get off the island with Aaron, and they'll be leaving the island (not a freighter) in the helicopter. :)

Poor Desmond. Poor Charlie.

I believe both to be heroic souls - but it only really shows through when the chips are down.

I believe that Desmond lied to Charlie about Claire and Aaron specifically getting on a helicopter to motivate Charlie to make his sacrifice. I think Des was at his desperate wits' end by this point. He keeps saving Charlie only to be handed another vision of Charlie's death. He warned Charlie about the birds, and poor Charlie came off as looking like a total jerk to Claire - because face it - that did not look like a heroic end, and Charlie had no motivation to succumb to it.

Then Des gets another vision. Charlie drowns. Only this time, his vision shows him a helicopter as well. IF his visions are true, then he likely saw the vision of himself, Kate, Aaron, Jack, Hurley, Sun and Sayid on the chopper. So he half lies to Charlie by throwing Claire on the chopper as well. Because this is it - this is rescue on the line. This is him reuniting with Penny.

But Des is conflicted about this - he doesn't want to be responsible for letting Charlie die, and yet he's had a taste of what's to come if he does. So Des is noble. He doesn't yank Charlie aside and say, "Hey, I've had a vision of rescue, but you have to die for it to come true." He keeps his mouth shut... until...


[Charlie notices Desmond has paused]
CHARLIE: What?
DESMOND: Nothing.
CHARLIE: Wait. You had one of your flashes again, didn't you?
DESMOND: No, Charlie, I didn't.

Charlie asks the magic question.

But Desmond doesn't fold until later in the episode. He approaches Charlie at Claire's tent:
DESMOND: Er, sorry. Er, Charlie. Can you give me a hand with something?
CHARLIE: Yeah, Desmond. Course.
[They start walking together]
CHARLIE: So, you ready to tell me what you saw this morning?
DESMOND: Aye.
CHARLIE: Right. So how's it happen this time?
[Pause]
CHARLIE: Come on, Des. You can tell me. I can take it.
[Pause]
DESMOND: What I saw, Charlie, was Claire and her baby getting into a helicopter. A helicopter that lifts off--leaves this Island.
CHARLIE: Are you sure?
DESMOND: Aye.
CHARLIE: A rescue helicopter on this beach?
[Desmond nods]
CHARLIE: This Island--that's what you saw?
[Desmond nods again]
CHARLIE: We're getting bloody rescued! I thought you were gonna tell me I was gonna die again!
DESMOND: You are, Charlie.
CHARLIE: Wait, what?
DESMOND: If you don't, none of it will happen. There won't be any rescue. I'm sorry, brother, but this time--this time you have to die.


Not only did the helicopter NOT pick up Aaron on the beach - it picked him up on the freighter. Charlie did not ask about it this time - this time Desmond approaches Charlie to give him this revelation.

I think the taste of rescue was too sweet - the temptation too great - the ultimate prize too dear for Desmond to risk Charlie not dying this time around. To make sure that this rescue would happen - he tells Charlie that he sees Claire and Aaron board a helicopter and get rescued. He doesn't force Charlie to make this sacrifice - but he is likely convinced he'll be willing for those two people above all others.

Even as Charlie has steeled himself for the task - Desmond gives him further confirmation:

CHARLIE: You sure you saw Claire and Aaron get on that helicopter?
DESMOND: Aye.


Desmond is a hero - but a flawed one, like most are. He is a present figure each time Charlie dies in his visions - otherwise he couldn't witness it and know it. He may have witnessed that only a musician could stop that signal and felt that he couldn't succeed with only that information.

I think we'll see a guilt-wrought Desmond in the future. He may even get a visit from Charlie - who knows. I have no doubt he believed that his vision meant that everyone would be rescued - but he did not witness Claire getting rescued.

The only other insights we've had to Desmond's visions had pretty immediate results. I don't think this result is a sleeper that is waiting to happen years into the future.

Jacob changed things....

I'm reluctant to say it because Desmond is one of my favorite characters, but I think Desmond was flat out lying to Charlie. He sent Charlie to The Looking Glass for his own gain. Remember the episode when Locke couldn't talk and he had a dream of Boone pushing him in his wheelchair? Boone told Locke not to worry about Desmond because he was "taking care of himself." If I remember correctly, Desmond was talking with two women in that scene. I wonder if those two women are the same ones that were in The Looking Glass?

Heracy! He said there would be a flashing yellow light, and there was!

BTW: He was actually in the company of several women.

You know stuff about Lost that none of us know about? Are these spoilers? If so, you should not be posting them here, its against the rules? Cause what you are stating as fact never happened. So are you implying this is going to happen and you know about it?

If not, then how on earth can you know what Desmond saw in his vision when none of us know. Or how he was lying about it when he NEVER lied about a vision before.

Please explain to me how any of this is just not you guessing and not using and logic we have seen to supoort your theory?

I'm only basing this theory on what we've seen on the show. You are the one who is ASSUMING his vision is what he said it was. I am just looking at what has ACTUALLY HAPPENED. There is absolutely nothing that has been shown to support your arguement other than Desmond's description of his vision. I'm not saying Claire and Aaron definitley will not get onto a helicopter in the future. It's my THEORY that Desmond saw that saving Charlie time and again was going to be pointless and he used this vision of Charlie's death to get off the island and put and end to Charlie's suffering.

kittenkong has written a very good post and has given a very good side to the arguement im not saying that itds right but it seems plausible. try to imagine urself in the situation and u could see the one person u love again after how long.

u may be tempted i know i would be.

The show is not over. Penny's helicopter could still take Claire and Aaron off the island as it is evident Aaron needs to go back to the island.

I think you're right. Ben said they ALL have to go back to the island, i think Desmond's premonition will still be fulfilled when Aaron is back on the island again and there will be another chance for him and Claire to leave together. On a helicopter.

What we know is that Desmond has yet to lie about one of his visions and he said he saw Claire and Aaron get on a copter. So it means it will happen, its only a matter of time.

When?? When Aaron's 15 years old??? Taller ghost Aaron? We already know Desmond can't see BABY AARON/. The dude's at least three years old and he's yet to get off the island with Claire. Geez..

Unlike any other vision...Desmond was SUPER SPECIFIC as to what he told Charlie.

DO you think Charlie would have chosen to drown if Desmond had not said...SPECIFICALLY that he saw Claire and Aaron get on the chopper?

You need to goback and look at every description of every vision that is known... and watch the progression. First its either/or, either Charlie dies, or Desmond intervenes. Then they progress to If/Then. If Charlie dies, Penny arrives. If Charlie doesn't die, then Penny doesn't arrive.

So the final one...Let Charlie die, via the Looking Glass, and Penny and Desmond will be united...THAT'S WHAT HE SAW. We haven't seen it, but I'm 98% sure we will. Desmond saw himself with Penny in that vision whcih he claims saves Claire.

He lied.

Still working on that other thing.....cause I think its a case of mis-communication but I don't have time now. I don't have time for THIS now, I just chose to take a break, as it were.

Okay, he lied. After the phone call with Penny, I'm happy with it.

Answer:

Desmond saw a woman carrying Aaron get on the chopper.

He thought it was Claire, but actually it was Kate.

That makes no sense. If that's the case then why even tell Charlie what he had to do. If he had no worry about death and figured he could do it, then why didn't he just go do it and come back before anyone noticed.
Since when did Desmond believe that he would die without seeing a vision of it??? He believed that the switch had to be flipped to save everyone, and that who ever went down there would most likely drown, because the station was flooded. He tried to take Charlie's place because he is compassionate, and he couldn't bear seeing what Charlie was going through, so he tried to convince himself that there was a different reason for the visions -- namely that they were telling him to take his place.

And ultimately, Charlie didn't die because of what Desmond told him. He died because he was the only one of them who would be able to tap out "Good Vibrations" on the key pad. So he did that, while Des got the SCUBA gear. Neither of them still thought the vision was true at that point, about Charlie dying. They both thought it had been wrong.

I think turning off the jammer was a crucial thing. The O6 had to leave the island, and they had to come back. And sometime after they do, in season 6, I think Claire is going to get on a helicopter with Aaron.

kittenkong has written a very good post and has given a very good side to the arguement im not saying that itds right but it seems plausible. try to imagine urself in the situation and u could see the one person u love again after how long.

u may be tempted i know i would be.
I agree. I think kittenkong explained it perfectly.

Unlike any other vision...Desmond was SUPER SPECIFIC as to what he told Charlie.

You need to goback and look at every description of every vision that is known... and watch the progression. First its either/or, either Charlie dies, or Desmond intervenes. Then they progress to If/Then. If Charlie dies, Penny arrives. If Charlie doesn't die, then Penny doesn't arrive.

So the final one...Let Charlie die, via the Looking Glass, and Penny and Desmond will be united...THAT'S WHAT HE SAW. We haven't seen it, but I'm 98% sure we will. Desmond saw himself with Penny in that vision whcih he claims saves Claire.

He lied.
I think you're confusing his visions with his attempts to interpret his visions. His visions are always "super-specific". He sees what he sees. We got to see one of them, and it was more specific than what he said about the switch and the helicopter. How he interpreted them, however, changed all the time. At first he saw stuff, and then made it not happen, to save Charlie. Even then he said, "no matter what I do, you're gonna die." Then he started speculating that he had to make sure that everything in the vision happened in order for all the other parts to happen, and finally he started speculating that all the visions were a sign that he was meant to die in Charlie's place. I think there is a 0% chance that he lied about seeing Claire and Aaron get on the helicopter (between trying to sacrifice his life to save the world, and trying to sacrifice his life to save Charlie). He did lie at first about having the vision at all. But if all he wanted was for the vision to come true, he didn't have to tell Charlie anything. But he ultimately decided that Charlie deserved to know.

Also, in what actually happened so far, Aaron didn't leave the island in a helicopter, he left in a boat, so he didn't mistake Kate for Claire. It's possible that something happened to change it, but my bet is that it's still going to happen the way he saw it.

I think turning off the jammer was a crucial thing. The O6 had to leave the island, and they had to come back. And sometime after they do, in season 6, I think Claire is going to get on a helicopter with Aaron.

Question - Doesn't the idea of Kate just handing Aaron back to Claire bother anyone? The poor kid thinks Kate is his mother. His parent/child bond with Claire is now destroyed. Charlie didn't just want to save Claire/Aaron. He wanted to protect them. I don't think Charlie would have given his life knowing Claire/Aarons would be seperated for three years. It cheapens the value of Charlie's sacrifice to say "Oh they'll get their helicopter rescue eventually..." Claire has missed Aarons first steps, his first words. It is a tragedy. I hate to think that Darlton won't even acknowledge this. They'll just put them on a chopper in S6 and say "See! Desmonds vision was right!" It's balls. Too little, much too late.

Well, Claire did walk away from Aaron and leave him in the jungle. She must have done so for a reason.

Then Des gets another vision. Charlie drowns. Only this time, his vision shows him a helicopter as well. IF his visions are true, then he likely saw the vision of himself, Kate, Aaron, Jack, Hurley, Sun and Sayid on the chopper. So he half lies to Charlie by throwing Claire on the chopper as well. Because this is it - this is rescue on the line. This is him reuniting with Penny.

But Des is conflicted about this - he doesn't want to be responsible for letting Charlie die, and yet he's had a taste of what's to come if he does.

This doesn't work because he had been down that road before. He believed that Charlie's death was inevitable, and he believed that it had to happen the way he saw, and then Penny would come falling out of the sky. That would be a far greater temptation than the prospect of getting rescued. Yet when it came down to it, he realized it would be wrong, and he saved Charlie again. Because he is a good man.

It would not be believable or keeping with his character for him to have unlearned that lesson. His first instinct when he saw Charlie drown was to deny the vision completely. But he realized that he was still responsible for Charlie's death if he didn't warn him. So he told him what he saw, and why he believed it was necessary for him to flip the switch even though it meant he would die. His actions from the point of telling Charlie the vision on, are the actions of a noble and honest man, in keeping with his subsequent desire to take Charlie's place.

The only other insights we've had to Desmond's visions had pretty immediate results. I don't think this result is a sleeper that is waiting to happen years into the future.
Actually, the only vision we saw, of the parachutist, included him with Penny, which didn't happen until a long time later.
100%
Question - Doesn't the idea of Kate just handing Aaron back to Claire bother anyone? The poor kid thinks Kate is his mother. His parent/child bond with Claire is now destroyed.
Well, sure that could be bad, depending on how it's done, if it's done. I assume that whatever they do, they'll consider that.

Charlie didn't just want to save Claire/Aaron. He wanted to protect them. I don't think Charlie would have given his life knowing Claire/Aarons would be seperated for three years. It cheapens the value of Charlie's sacrifice to say "Oh they'll get their helicopter rescue eventually..." Claire has missed Aarons first steps, his first words. It is a tragedy. I hate to think that Darlton won't even acknowledge this. They'll just put them on a chopper in S6 and say "See! Desmonds vision was right!" It's balls. Too little, much too late.

That's the thing about visions. They don't come with paperwork that spells out all the details. They don't always mean what you assume. Desmond wrongly assumed that the parachutist was actually Penny, when the vision really only apparently implied that her arrival would ultimately lead to him being with Penny.

I don't know what Charlie would have done if he knew the full details of the future, but I think he'd still do what he had to do. Like Christian said, Aaron didn't belong there -- "some very bad things" are about to happen on the island.
100%
I shall:

When Desmond was explaining to Charlie why some of his (Desmond's) actions seemed curious, for lack of better terminology, Desmond finally explains to Charlie why he (Desmond) had been acting the way he has. As the explanations occur, during that conversation, as Desmond tells the tale, we visually see what he is saying to Charlie.
We see the lightning, the drowning, the bird.

Episodes later, we see the first half of the Looking Glass incident, the Charlie part, but we never ever see in any visual or explanatory form of the second part of this alleged vision, which is Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper. It is never given as a visual, as were the above, after the fact as explained by Desmond, or before the fact, as when we see Desmond's arrow vision. This one vision, Claire and Aaron, stands alone, with absolutely no further explanation or context, visual or otherwise.

Is there a website where you can order Col Locke's Hallucinogenic Jungle Paste for watching the episodes, or do you just make your own? ;););) J/K, all in good fun! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

What you're misremembering is in Flashes Before Your Eyes. While Charlie is questioning Desmond we see a brief flashback of what actually happened, as Charlie is asking him how he knew. We see a brief flash of the lightning hit Desmond's lightning rod, and we very briefly see Claire thanking Desmond after he saved her.

I don't know what you're thinking of when you say we saw the first part of Desmond's Looking Glass vision. Like the other poster said, the only vision we saw any part of the vision from Catch-22.

Desmond is a hero - but a flawed one, like most are. He is a present figure each time Charlie dies in his visions - otherwise he couldn't witness it and know it. He may have witnessed that only a musician could stop that signal and felt that he couldn't succeed with only that information.

I think we'll see a guilt-wrought Desmond in the future. He may even get a visit from Charlie - who knows. I have no doubt he believed that his vision meant that everyone would be rescued - but he did not witness Claire getting rescued.

The only other insights we've had to Desmond's visions had pretty immediate results. I don't think this result is a sleeper that is waiting to happen years into the future.

While my HOPE is that Desmond was telling the truth to Charlie about his vision, I think at this point, it could go either way. You are correct when you point out that he is a flawed hero. The question is, where are we in his character arch?

Up to this point, the entire arch of Desmond's character has been his quest to be worthy of Penny's love. That's why he went on the boat race - to disprove the military's conclusion that Desmond was a coward. To prove to Penny (even if she didn't believe he was a coward in the first place), and Charles Widmore that he was capable of heroic acts. To prove to himself that he was a good man. The vision of Claire and Aaron gives us two ways to continue telling Desmond's story.

If Desmond lied to Charlie about the vision of Claire and Aaron for the sole purpose of getting Charlie to sacrifice his life so Des himself could be rescued, then obviously Des has not yet been redeemed. Such a self-serving act does not make Des worthy of Penny's love. The guilt will eat away at him, and we'll spend the next two seasons watching Des attempt to make up for the lie. He will pay a price - possibly even Micheal's price - and in the end (live or die) will be a redeemed hero.

If Desmond told the truth to Charlie, and believed that Charlie's sacrifice really would lead to Claire and Aaron's rescue, then Desmond has already been redeemed. That was one of the implications of turning the fail-safe key - that his act of self-sacrifice finally established that Des was a good man. All he needed to do was get back to Penny and live happily ever after. If Des is already redeemed, his story would take a new turn in the next two seasons. The story wouldn't be whether Desmond is a hero, but instead HOW MUCH of a hero. Now that he has all he has ever wanted in life, will he risk it to help Jack get back to the island and presumably rescue those left behind? The question becomes, how much sacrifice (considering he already spent three years trying to get back to Penny) is enough to be rewarded with happiness? Can Des truly be worth of Penny if he is, in effect, trading all those lives to be with her? I think this is a really interesting question, and not one often asked on television.

I'd also like to point out that Desmond tried once before to exchange Charlie's life for a chance to see Penny. Desmond couldn't go through with it. Though tempted with the reward of Penny, Desmond made the hero's choice to save his friend's life. Whether this piece of Desmond's character would change from one episode to the next depends on whether Desmond was still in the "flawed" part of his character arch.

The bottom line is that it will depend on which story TPTB find more interesting to tell.

If Desmond told the truth to Charlie, and believed that Charlie's sacrifice really would lead to Claire and Aaron's rescue, then Desmond has already been redeemed.

I don't see Desmonds role in this Charlie/Claire story as being heroic or redeeming even if he IS telling the truth. All Desmond was for Charlie/Claire was a prophet of doom. It wasn't Desmonds fault (don't shoot the messenger) but it didn't make Desmond heroic and honourable either. He failed to save Charlie and the vision of Claire/Aarons rescue also failed. If I was Desmond I would be feeling more 'failure' than redeemed hero.

Even though Desmond couldn't go through with sacrificing Charlie in Catch-22 it wasn't like Desmond was appologising proffusely afterwards. He actually said "I was supposed to let you die Charlie" like saving him had been a mistake. So I think it is possible Desmond could have lied. Whether Des lied or told the truth it is just plain bad writing that they haven't addressed this issue in S4.

I don't see Desmonds role in this Charlie/Claire story as being heroic or redeeming even if he IS telling the truth. All Desmond was for Charlie/Claire was a prophet of doom. It wasn't Desmonds fault (don't shoot the messenger) but it didn't make Desmond heroic and honourable either. He failed to save Charlie and the vision of Claire/Aarons rescue also failed. If I was Desmond I would be feeling more 'failure' than redeemed hero.

I didn't mean telling the truth to Charlie was redeeming in and of itself - I phrased that poorly. I meant that telling the truth and not acting in a self-serving manner was an indication that Desmond was already past the "flawed" part of his character arch; he was redeemed by turning the failsafe key, and had moved on to the "Get back to Penny" phase of his story. Redemption means that, as a character, Desmond would be tempted but would make heroic and morally correct decisions. He would save Charlie's life, instead of sacrificing it to see Penny at the parachute drop. He would tell the truth and offer Charlie the option to save everyone, instead of hiding it, or trying to trick Charlie into making the choice most beneficial to Desmond. It makes Charlie's choice the central part of Charlie's arch alone, and not about Desmond (which I find appropriate to the gravity of Charlie's decision). In this scenario, Desmond, as you said, is merely the messenger.

Even though Desmond couldn't go through with sacrificing Charlie in Catch-22 it wasn't like Desmond was apologizing profusely afterwards. He actually said "I was supposed to let you die Charlie" like saving him had been a mistake. So I think it is possible Desmond could have lied. Whether Des lied or told the truth it is just plain bad writing that they haven't addressed this issue in S4.I agree, Desmond could have lied; I'm not making an argument for or against at the moment. My focus was on what a lie or the truth would indicate about where Desmond is in his development as a character in a story with two great big chapters left to write.

I believe in Desmond's vision, he saw claire and aaron in the helicopter, but he dosent know when this happen, like the scene in Flashes before you eyes, the footbal game, he have a vision, but not the details.

When?? When Aaron's 15 years old??? Taller ghost Aaron? We already know Desmond can't see BABY AARON/. The dude's at least three years old and he's yet to get off the island with Claire. Geez..

Unlike any other vision...Desmond was SUPER SPECIFIC as to what he told Charlie.

DO you think Charlie would have chosen to drown if Desmond had not said...SPECIFICALLY that he saw Claire and Aaron get on the chopper?

You need to goback and look at every description of every vision that is known... and watch the progression. First its either/or, either Charlie dies, or Desmond intervenes. Then they progress to If/Then. If Charlie dies, Penny arrives. If Charlie doesn't die, then Penny doesn't arrive.

So the final one...Let Charlie die, via the Looking Glass, and Penny and Desmond will be united...THAT'S WHAT HE SAW. We haven't seen it, but I'm 98% sure we will. Desmond saw himself with Penny in that vision whcih he claims saves Claire.

He lied.

Still working on that other thing.....cause I think its a case of mis-communication but I don't have time now. I don't have time for THIS now, I just chose to take a break, as it were.


You have no facts to back up your claims, so its not a lie, its your opinion. **edited**

Here are the facts.

1. We have only actually seen one of Desmond's visions.
2. Every vision he talked about has come true.
3. He has NEVER lied about a vision before.
4. Desmond was only specific in what he saw in the vision which falls in line perfectly from Catch-22. He didn't tell us his vision but we actually saw it and it was just as specific as the one he told Charlie.
5. Desmond already had another vision where in if Charlie dies, Penny shows up. It was in Catch-22. Yet even with it being Penny if he let Charlie die, he still saved his life. So we know for a fact when Desmond was presented with an similar instance of saving Charlie and Penny not being the one to parachute down or letting him die and it be Penny, he chose to save Charlie.


**edtied** I presented 5 cold, hard facts to you about why its not a lie. If you can present cold hard facts and not just opinion then I'll change my tune**edited**

Same posts, new thread. Most of us have been arguing over lying, mistaken, vision yet to be seen for a loooonnnnggg time and the answer remains the same...Wait and see.

What has changed is that Desmond is now off the Island. I have a feeling that the Claire helicopter vision is around to haunt back home as well. I can see Des eventually realizing what the key to that vision is and the key will require him to get back to the Island as well.

Desmond's "I'll never leave you again" to Penny was a bit too ominous for me. He's leaving again to go back to the Island and play out or correct his vision.

How do we know that his vision wasn't changed by someone else? What if Claire was *supposed* to be on the chopper with Aaron, but Christian intervened? He certainly seems capable of that..

There's always the possibility that the O-6 have to return to the island on a mission to "make it never was", right? Unlikely, I guess, but that is one scenario that could result in Claire and baby Aaron leaving the island on a helicopter...

- mnw

Same posts, new thread. Most of us have been arguing over lying, mistaken, vision yet to be seen for a loooonnnnggg time and the answer remains the same...Wait and see.

What has changed is that Desmond is now off the Island. I have a feeling that the Claire helicopter vision is around to haunt back home as well. I can see Des eventually realizing what the key to that vision is and the key will require him to get back to the Island as well.

Desmond's "I'll never leave you again" to Penny was a bit too ominous for me. He's leaving again to go back to the Island and play out or correct his vision.

Considering that:

Ben is looking for Penny to kill her
Ben can never go back to the islandThen the only guaranteed safe place for Penny is the island.

Perhaps this little fact will be found out by Desmond and Penny and they'll be island-bound where the vision of Claire and Aaron can come true.

What has changed is that Desmond is now off the Island. I have a feeling that the Claire helicopter vision is around to haunt back home as well. I can see Des eventually realizing what the key to that vision is and the key will require him to get back to the Island as well.

Desmond's "I'll never leave you again" to Penny was a bit too ominous for me. He's leaving again to go back to the Island and play out or correct his vision.
I agree that he's island-bound, but for different reasons...

Considering that:
Ben is looking for Penny to kill her
Ben can never go back to the islandThen the only guaranteed safe place for Penny is the island.

Perhaps this little fact will be found out by Desmond and Penny and they'll be island-bound where the vision of Claire and Aaron can come true.
I think they're already island-bound...
Jack: "Are you sure about this."
Desmond: "Aye, as long as I have Penny, I'll be fine."
Jack: "Don't let them find you."

So Penny and Des are going into hiding together, because they figure that whoever faked the crash will probably want Desmond dead. And they're going to a place that would make Jack say, in effect, "are you sure that's where you want to go?" So I think he will be around to witness Claire and Aaron getting on a helo in season 6. But he doesn't believe he has to go back to make that happen or anything.

3. He has NEVER lied about a vision before.
Well, just to be fair, he has lied several times to conceal that he was having visions, but you're right, he's never lied about the contents.

You are correct when you point out that he is a flawed hero. The question is, where are we in his character arch?
That's the point exactly, which presents several reasons why Desmond didn't lie. Desmond's character flaw has been cowardice. His "hero moment" was when he overcame that cowardice and turned the failsafe key. He is already redeemed. He proved that again by attempting to sacrifice his life to save Charlie. The most telling indication that he didn't lie is that in his mourning for Charlie, and all the times that Charlie is mentioned, or Claire, he has shown no signs of guilt or misgivings for his own actions. He knew he did everything he possibly could for Charlie.

Whether Des lied or told the truth it is just plain bad
writing that they haven't addressed this issue in S4.
I vociferously object to that. If they had addressed it, we wouldn't be talking about it, would we?. Life doesn't provide instant clarification, and neither should art.

I don't think it's enough of an ambiguity to require clarification in the first place, but ultimately, I do not think it will be addressed until Desmond sees Claire getting on a helo in season 6, with a smile of recognition and happiness for Charlie.

The sad part of all this is that Desmond is really an unwitting accomplice to Widmore, and I wonder if some of the time issues are going to start coming into play.

If the island has the power to move things and people through time, then could it be possible that Jacob could exist outside time? After all, only fools are constrained by time and space. Could it be that Jacob saw Charlie as a threat because he knew that Charlie would be the one to go through the looking glass?

So why go after Charlie when you could go after Desmond? I think Desmond must have some protection, perhaps due to the "rules" that were in place between Ben and Widmore. But as much as I really like Desmond, I think he's an unwitting pawn of Widmore.

All the direction he's received that resulted in him breaking his engagement came from off-island people that could be connected to Widmore
He arrived on the island indirectly as a result of Widmore's influence
He triggered the failsafe that put the island "on the map," albeit however briefly
He started having visions immediately after triggering the failsafe and through these visions was able to keep Charlie alive, find Widmore's agent, and fully reveal the island's location.

All this time, Jacob apparently gives no instructions regarding Desmond to Ben and the Others. There seems to be some dispute as to when Ben and company learned about the Swan. There was some indication early that they didn't know about it, but quite frankly it's hard to believe that they would know about every single other station and not know about the Swan. In Expose it was revealed that they knew how to remotely view activity in the Swan, so they could have been aware of at least Kelvin.

So was the Charlie/Desmond story arc just foreshadowing of the larger conflict between the forces of the island vs. the forces of man - or is Desmond being used as a course-correcting agent to reveal the island that has been hidden by unnatural means?

I vociferously object to that. If they had addressed it, we wouldn't be talking about it, would we?. Life doesn't provide instant clarification, and neither should art.


The only reason I am talking about this issue is because it is a massive ugly plot hole which destroys the value of Charlies sacrifice and has Desmond acting completely out of character. In S3 Desmond was shown to be very troubled about Charlies situation. Desmond assured Charlie several times that his sacrifice would achieve rescue for Claire/Aaron and offered to go in Charlies place so he could be with Claire. It makes no sense for Desmond to not care or even react to Claire/Aarons lack of rescue. Personally I think it is extremely bad writing.

Well haven't seen Claire doing much greiving either and she was the reason Charlie went down there. That's more of a crime if you ask me. And then she gave the baby away.
I don't see how Charlie's sacrifice has been diminished in anyway. He died trying to save Claire and his friends and just because it didn't happen in the way we expected it to doesn't make his noble gesture less noble. He was still a hero who gave his life for Claire and Aaron.

Well haven't seen Claire doing much greiving either and she was the reason Charlie went down there. That's more of a crime if you ask me. And then she gave the baby away.
I don't see how Charlie's sacrifice has been diminished in anyway. He died trying to save Claire and his friends and just because it didn't happen in the way we expected it to doesn't make his noble gesture less noble. He was still a hero who gave his life for Claire and Aaron.
I agree, Charlie's actions were completely selfless and heroic. I just think Desmond wasn't entirely truthful with what he saw.

But how does that diminsh Charlie's sacrifice as so many people have said? It may put a shadow on Des, but not Charlie.

I don't see how Charlie's sacrifice has been diminished in anyway. He died trying to save Claire and his friends and just because it didn't happen in the way we expected it to doesn't make his noble gesture less noble. He was still a hero who gave his life for Claire and Aaron.

I agree about Charlies heroism, but I'm complaining about the storytelling here. The writers hyped up that Charlie's death was going to be a big important sacrifice for the greater good. They asked the viewers to care about Charlie, his list, his ring, Claire and Aarons rescue, the reason he was sacrificing himself, etc - then they swept all these things under the carpet as if they didn't matter. I've never felt more cheated by a story.

It also makes the whole "redemption" theme seem cruel and futile. Charlie redeemed himself big time - what was his reward? To be killed by the fate/universe and not even by granted his dying wish or recieve an recognition from his friends for his heroism (a funeral maybe?). Why should the characters even bother trying to be good people when the island is this merciless?

The only reason I am talking about this issue is because it is a massive ugly plot hole which destroys the value of Charlies sacrifice and has Desmond acting completely out of character. In S3 Desmond was shown to be very troubled about Charlies situation. Desmond assured Charlie several times that his sacrifice would achieve rescue for Claire/Aaron and offered to go in Charlies place so he could be with Claire. It makes no sense for Desmond to not care or even react to Claire/Aarons lack of rescue. Personally I think it is extremely bad writing.

The fact you (so many of you!!) are so passionate about this makes the writing that GOOD! You have just summerized what everyone on this thread has been saying... except about the writing being bad. Some people just said confusing. However... Excellent job!

I've read through all the responses here... WOW! So much passion for both Des and Charlie! Several people mentioned free-will, lieing, and that Desmond BELIEVES Charlie has no choice!

One thing no one has considered yet! It might help everyone! It is only a theory, but I have to spoiler font it, because we have not been shown this example, yet. I'm thinking very soon. Ooops, have to rescue a toddler, be right back....

Swan Orientation video: "The DHARMA Initiative was created in 1970, and is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen DeGroot, two doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan. Following in the footsteps of visionaries such as B.F. Skinner, (?) imagined a large-scale communal research compound where scientists and free-thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and utopian social..."

Okay, so what? You all did notice the picture of Ms. Hawkings on the Monk's desk, yes? Does Ben want Des to save Charlie's life and get everyone off the Island? Does Widmore want Desmond off the Island and back with Penny? Who benefits from Charlie's death?

It benefits both Ben and Widmore if Des just keeps pushing that darn button. First, it gives Widmore a chance to find the Island. I believe Widmore put Libby up to sending Des on that boat, which I also believe had a GPS on it.

Second, Desmond has been haunted by Widmore's manipulation for years.

Was it just coincidence that he met Ms. Hawkings? The monks are connected with Widmore and Ms. Hawkings.
Poor Desmond... I believe he was just an experiment on the human mind and was manipulated into believeing he couldn't change Charlie's future. However, Desmond's heart won over and I believe we shall see this in a future espisode. Which would explain Desmonds constant battle with his visions. Following his heart instead of Widmore's mind conditioning.

Evil villians: Oh, I believe we have some real EVIL villians on this show :mad: ...and Des and Chuck are not one of them. :)

Charlie and Desmond really did resuce everyone! Have faith people!

Remember what Charlie said to Hurley, "Yes, I'm dead, but I'm also here." Here?
Here? LOL! This is a different thread. Check out the Wormhole theories if you want more!

But how does that diminsh Charlie's sacrifice as so many people have said? It may put a shadow on Des, but not Charlie.
I don't think it diminishes Charlie's sacrifice at all. He still made the decision to dive down and give his life for what he thought was Claire and Aaron's rescue. Honestly, until we know why Claire is now with Christian, she is the one who has tainted his sacrifice by not leaving the island.

It may put a shadow on Des, but not Charlie.

Perhaps! Madge, I love your quote... The Hatch blew his cloths off... Just stop right there! No more needs to be said IMHO!! LOL! Love it!

That line was from Lost in 8:15 IIRC. Loved it!

Well, I do hope that there's a resolution for those who are unhappy with how this turned out. I thought Charlie's death scene was touching and done well and he died being a sweetheart. At least they sent him off with a better farewell than many of the others received. I found it touching.
I would like to see the ring come back in to play.

Again, where are you getting this being a lie from. What indication at all do we have that he lied. Other than it has yet to happen, but last I checked, just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.

"Didn't see Claire on board that helicopter when it took off from the island to the freighter nor was she included in the Oceanic 6 and thus made it to the "real" world. Sice Desmond told Charlie BOTH Aaron and CLAIRE would be on the rescue helicopter I would say that he didn't tell Charlie the truth"
100%
The only reason I am talking about this issue is because it is a massive ugly plot hole which destroys the value of Charlies sacrifice and has Desmond acting completely out of character. In S3 Desmond was shown to be very troubled about Charlies situation. Desmond assured Charlie several times that his sacrifice would achieve rescue for Claire/Aaron and offered to go in Charlies place so he could be with Claire. It makes no sense for Desmond to not care or even react to Claire/Aarons lack of rescue. Personally I think it is extremely bad writing.

"I agree-albeit I would not say that it destroyed the value of Charlie's sacrifice. What Charlie BELIEVED at the time to be the reason for the sacrifice is important. That the sacrifice may not have been warranted in no way destroys the gesture."

Charlie's sacrifice was in no wise diminished by Desmond's lie. Charlie did the noble thing.

And then she (Claire) gave the baby away.


We don't know that.

We know Christian was holding Aaron.
We know Claire saw him.
We know Claire walked off into the jungle, according to Miles.
We know that Sawyer found Aaron by a tree, crying. (At least he wasn't sleeping, again.)

There are gaps in the storyline from Claire seeing Christian holding Aaron, until Aaron is in the jungle found by Sawyer. The only thing within that space of time is a simple line from Miles...she walked off in the jungle...she called him dad....

Was Christian still holding Aaron? Don't know.
Did Claire need to follow Christian to get Aaron back? Don't know.
Did Christian hand Aaron to Claire and the all went off on their merry way? Don't know.
Did she have a choice? Don't know.
Is she still alive? I personally, seriously doubt it, but truest answer is...don't know.

Did Desmond lie to Charlie? Oh yeah.

It sorta like most of the replies here are directed about the merits of Charlie's death and why, not the actual premonitions..

We don't have much to go on, Des has said a couple times that things don't always pan out the way he initially saw them, "the picture is constantly changing" and whatnot. Did he say he saw himself with Charlie in the Looking Glass? Did he say Mikhail would use the grenade to blow open the window? For all we know those two factors weren't in his flash at all. ANYTHING could have changed the outcome.

The writers have planted stories since season 1 and tie them up later, I think this might be what's going to happen here. This show is full of surprises, I'm sure everything will make perfect sense later.

Des has said a couple times that things don't always pan out the way he initially saw them, "the picture is constantly changing" and whatnot.

Rehash: If that is true...then why was he so specific with Charlie's questioning?

Charlie questioning intensely because he knows about the changeability of the vision.

Desmond emphatic on the outcome.

Yes, definitly Claire and Aaron, or...not sure, its a jigsaw puzzle without the picture.

For those who refuse to accept the evidence...then why didn't Desmond just respond to Charlie about the vision the way he responded about previous visions.

Brotha, its a jigsaw puzzle, I'm not sure of the final outcome, but that's what I saw,

Claire and Aaron...

BTW: I am also 100% positive that all of this will get re-visited. Charlie's list, ring, this alleged vision....we're not done with it yet. Those who think it was bad plotting will eventually get plotted justice.

Charlie's sacrifice was in no wise diminished by Desmond's lie. Charlie did the noble thing.



We don't know that.

We know Christian was holding Aaron.
We know Claire saw him.
We know Claire walked off into the jungle, according to Miles.
We know that Sawyer found Aaron by a tree, crying. (At least he wasn't sleeping, again.)

There are gaps in the storyline from Claire seeing Christian holding Aaron, until Aaron is in the jungle found by Sawyer. The only thing within that space of time is a simple line from Miles...she walked off in the jungle...she called him dad....

Was Christian still holding Aaron? Don't know.
Did Claire need to follow Christian to get Aaron back? Don't know.
Did Christian hand Aaron to Claire and the all went off on their merry way? Don't know.
Did she have a choice? Don't know.
Is she still alive? I personally, seriously doubt it, but truest answer is...don't know.

Did Desmond lie to Charlie? Oh yeah.

Come on now. You can't give Claire the benefit of the doubt but not Des. I'll admit that I can't say Claire gave Aaron away (by leaving him in the jungle and walking away) if you can admit that we can't say Des lied about a vision we didn't see, a vision that could have been misinterpreted or changed. If Des lied, Claire abandoned.

I have plenty of evidence that Desmond lied.
I have no evidence that Claire abandoned.

Aaron abandoned, yes. But the why of it is still unknown. I think its onaccounta she's dead.

And being dead makes it difficult to care for Aaron.

The only reason I am talking about this issue is because it is a massive ugly plot hole which destroys the value of Charlies sacrifice and has Desmond acting completely out of character. In S3 Desmond was shown to be very troubled about Charlies situation. Desmond assured Charlie several times that his sacrifice would achieve rescue for Claire/Aaron and offered to go in Charlies place so he could be with Claire. It makes no sense for Desmond to not care or even react to Claire/Aarons lack of rescue. Personally I think it is extremely bad writing.
He never assured Charlie that Claire and Aaron would be rescued -- he only reiterated what he saw... and he once stated his belief that if Charlie didn't do what he saw, then the rest of it wouldn't happen either. I think he was as dumbstruck as anyone to see the island disappear. How would you have written him reacting differently? If he could do something to save Claire, I'm sure he would. But it's not like he assumed personal responsibility for making sure that Claire and Aaron got onto a helicopter together. He was just relating what he saw. And I don't think it's fair to call that a "plot hole" until we see how (or if) it's addressed in the next two seasons. If it's never addressed, then that may be fair, but it's not fair to just assume it won't be.

Forgive me but I don't find your evidence objective or I would be on the same page with you. At least in Claire's case we have a witness (albeit it's Miles) that says he saw Claire walk away with a man into the jungle. We see her later very serene in the cabin, not seeming too worried about her baby who was left alone in the jungle. Certainly gives the impression that Christian told her something that made her leave him behind, which she did.
We have a conversation with Des and Charlie and Des tells Charlie of the pictures he's seen but his pictures (from Catch 22) showed Charlie take an arrow to the throat but also Charlie was standing with the group when Naomi fell from the tree. He also saw Penny but she wasn't the parachutist as he assumed she would be. So his visions were iffy and not 100% to begin with.

And I'm not on the 'Claire is dead' team. I'm sure if we keep trying there will be something about this show we can agree on. :)

For those who refuse to accept the evidence...then why didn't Desmond just respond to Charlie about the vision the way he responded about previous visions.

Brotha, its a jigsaw puzzle, I'm not sure of the final outcome, but that's what I saw,

What evidence. He responds exactly the same way as he did with his previous visions. Yes, "It's like a jigsaw puzzle," he doesn't know how they all fit together. But he knows what he saw.

In Catch-22 he KNOWS that the first piece is Hurley pulling that cable up out of the sand. But it's still a jigsaw puzzle.

When Charlie asked him, "are you sure.. you saw Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter?" "Aye." That's what he saw. What he doesn't know is when, or how it all fits together.

So his visions were iffy and not 100% to begin with.

So why be so emphatically clear with Charlie about an iffy vision? Only if to convince him of something ...


And I'm not on the 'Claire is dead' team. I'm sure if we keep trying there will be something about this show we can agree on. :)

People who are "alive & well" don't usually just "pop" into a rocking chair without coming through a door or window, or something.

However, that is for another thread and another time.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done. I'll agree that we disagree and wish you well.

[quote=Pythagoras99;1920462]What evidence. He responds exactly the same way as he did with his previous visions. Yes, "It's like a jigsaw puzzle," he doesn't know how they all fit together. But he knows what he saw.
quote]
So y ou would read the transcript, or re-watch the conversation with Charlie and say he's describing to Charlie a jigsaw puzzle? That conversation, to you, is a jigsaw puzzle? He's uncertain. You hear/see uncertainty in his description to Charlie?

When you watch/hear/read that. You don't hear Charlie trying to get to the heart of the matter, his attempt to remove the jigsaw puzzle aspect of this vision? You don't recognize that that is what Charlie is doing? And Desmond, understanding Charlie's concern about jugsaw puzzles...the all caring, jigsaw knowing Desmond, does everything he can, in this conversation, to assure Charlie that it might very well be just a jigsaw puzzle ending? You hear Desmond saying that? You don't hear his insistence that Claire...not some other female or dude with long hair...Claire gets on a chopper with Aaron.

So Charlie believes him and dies. Oops, sorry brotha, you musta changed something, even though you died like you were supposed to, or needed to. Funny how Charlie dying doesn't enter a jigsaw puzzle equation.

The true, vision...which we will discover in a future episode:

If/Then: As told, if Charlie dies, then Claire and Aaron get on a copter....eventually even.

If/Then: As he truly saw it. If Charlie dies, then I get to be with Penny again.

What actually happened? Charlie died, Desmond gets to be with Penny again.

Are there any clues at all that tell us Charlie's death = Penny reunion? Are there any, anywhere?

The one where the visions changed from either/or to if/then. The one vision that we actually got to see. Charlie shot with the arrow.

If/Then: If Charlie gets shot with an arrow, then Desmond gets to see Penny.

Charlie did not get shot with an arrow, Desmond intervened again, so Desmond got to see Naomi. Bummer. Simple logical and deduction tells Desmond...in order to see Penny...

The Lie Vision:
If/then: If Charlie dies with blinking yellow light, Claire and Aaron get rescued.

What he truly saw vision:
If/then: If Charlie dies with the blinking yellow light, then Desmond gets to see Penny.

Charlie did his part, what happened? Claire and Aaron are on the helicopter, or Desmond and Penny are together?

Or . . . the writers committed a clear case of bad continuity.

.
Perhaps this little fact will be found out by Desmond and Penny and they'll be island-bound where the vision of Claire and Aaron can come true.
I really hope so. Then again my gut and the actress' busy schedule are not making promises.

I think they're already island-bound...
Jack: "Are you sure about this."
Desmond: "Aye, as long as I have Penny, I'll be fine."
Jack: "Don't let them find you."
True. Looking back Jack's question was a bit strange. I thought it had more to do with Des getting off with them under some guise.

Penny doesn't know about Ben's plan to kill her yet and Des hasn't experienced anything calling him back yet. Heading to Hell Island at this point would probably be their last choice.


It makes no sense for Desmond to not care or even react to Claire/Aarons lack of rescue. This may sound a bit sassy but I think you're getting stuck.

You have only seen a few minutes of Des since the Island disappeared and the reality that Claire wasn't coming back was reached.----Desmond watching the freighter blow-up (not a time for vision remorse). Desmond on the life raft stunned and dumbified like the others (no one knows what he was thinking). Desmond seeing the love of his life for the first time in three years (I love you Pen but before I kiss you, let me tell you about Charlie and my vision):eek2: .

Des's character is not the problem. He has reacted in a completely appropriate manner to everything we've seen since he got on the copter.

It's seems like your more upset that TPTB didn't slip a little rant about Charlie in during the finale. Truth be told I don't think Charlie references had a place in this episode nor do I think most viewers were interested during all the rest of the action.

Time and a place for everything.

Charlie and Desmond really did resuce everyone! Have faith people!!
Yaaayyy!!!:biggrin:
[The true, vision...which we will discover in a future episode:
If/Then: As he truly saw it. If Charlie dies, then I get to be with Penny again.
I REALLY don't think this is how it went down but that's just my opinion.

More importantly, I think everyone would agree (outside of the vision subject) that TPTB have lead us to see Desmond as a pretty decent guy, a player on the Losties team and someone we should be rooting for. To have the opposite point of view, especially when there IS a possibility you're wrong, can taint the whole story for you as a viewer.

I think it may be best to hold off final judgement for further evidence.

So y ou would read the transcript, or re-watch the conversation with Charlie and say he's describing to Charlie a jigsaw puzzle? That conversation, to you, is a jigsaw puzzle? He's uncertain. You hear/see uncertainty in his description to Charlie?

When you watch/hear/read that. You don't hear Charlie trying to get to the heart of the matter, his attempt to remove the jigsaw puzzle aspect of this vision? You don't recognize that that is what Charlie is doing? And Desmond, understanding Charlie's concern about jugsaw puzzles...the all caring, jigsaw knowing Desmond, does everything he can, in this conversation, to assure Charlie that it might very well be just a jigsaw puzzle ending? You hear Desmond saying that? You don't hear his insistence that Claire...not some other female or dude with long hair...Claire gets on a chopper with Aaron.

That's just the point. Every time someone questioned what Desmond saw in a vision, Desmond is absolutely emphatic about what he saw. Hurley tried to ask how it all fits together. That he doesn't know. Charlie knows he doesn't know. Charlie knows better than to ask "are you positive that will happen?" because he knows that all Desmond knows is what he saw. So he asked again what he saw, and Desmond was as emphatic as always.

The true, vision...which we will discover in a future episode:

If/Then: As told, if Charlie dies, then Claire and Aaron get on a copter....eventually even.

If/Then: As he truly saw it. If Charlie dies, then I get to be with Penny again.

What actually happened? Charlie died, Desmond gets to be with Penny again.

Are there any clues at all that tell us Charlie's death = Penny reunion? Are there any, anywhere?
No, there are not. Or at least, there is the same amount of evidence that Desmond's REAL vision was that Charlie's Death = Jack's Appendectomy; and the exact same amount of evidence that Charlie's Death = Freighter Exploding; or that Charlie's Death = Yankees Sweep Redsox Twice in 2007!

The one where the visions changed from either/or to if/then. The one vision that we actually got to see. Charlie shot with the arrow.

If/Then: If Charlie gets shot with an arrow, then Desmond gets to see Penny.

Charlie did not get shot with an arrow, Desmond intervened again, so Desmond got to see Naomi. Bummer. Simple logical and deduction tells Desmond...in order to see Penny...
But Desmond is not insane, and if he "deduced" that by pushing Charlie out of the way, he caused Penny to change into Naomi mid-air, he would have to be. He believed that the vision came true anyway. He saved Charlie, and the person from Penny's boat arrived. And he would soon be with Penny.

It's seems like your more upset that TPTB didn't slip a little rant about Charlie in during the finale. Truth be told I don't think Charlie references had a place in this episode nor do I think most viewers were interested during all the rest of the action.

Time and a place for everything.

Please don't tell me what I'm thinking. It's rude.

I'm annoyed because Desmond's S3 arc has been dropped without resolution and I think that weakens his character. Damon himself said in S4 we would see Desmond questioning the role he played in Charlie's death, specifically whether Charlie would have drowned if Desmond hadn't told him about the Claire/Aaron copter vision. The writers failed to deliver this, but obviously the idea was there.

I think what happened is that the writers decided that the Des/Penny reunion would happen at the end of S4 so whatever brief screentime they gave to Desmond would be "Penneh!" related to build it up. I agree that the finale wasn't the time for Des to reflect on his visions. They should have done much earlier in the season (like they said they were going to). They could have done something earlier to show Desmond caring about Claire/Aaron getting rescued since he (and he alone) knows that is what Charlie died for. I don't believe Desmond is going to reflect on the Charlie death visions later on either because a) it would be weird for Des to suddenly start caring about an issue he has ignored all through S4 b) it seems like the Claire guilt is going to be Jack/Kates story. So I'm left with a hole in Desmonds story which I think is wrong. They have simplified Desmond to this "I've got my Penny so I'm super" drone making it seem like as long as Des has what he wants he has no guilt or concern for anyone else.

I'm not just saying this because I want a "Charlie rant". I think they are making Desmond and the storyline inconsistent. They spent the whole of S3 building up his prophecy arc and now they have dropped it without any explainations or reflection. Obviously people DO care because there have been countless threads questioning the Claire/Aaron vision and if Charlies sacrifice was for nothing.

Please don't tell me what I'm thinking. It's rude.

I'm annoyed because Desmond's S3 arc has been dropped without resolution and I think that weakens his character. Damon himself said in S4 we would see Desmond questioning the role he played in Charlie's death, specifically whether Charlie would have drowned if Desmond hadn't told him about the Claire/Aaron copter vision. The writers failed to deliver this, but obviously the idea was there.

I think what happened is that the writers decided that the Des/Penny reunion would happen at the end of S4 so whatever brief screentime they gave to Desmond would be "Penneh!" related to build it up. I agree that the finale wasn't the time for Des to reflect on his visions. They should have done much earlier in the season (like they said they were going to). They could have done something earlier to show Desmond caring about Claire/Aaron getting rescued since he (and he alone) knows that is what Charlie died for. I don't believe Desmond is going to reflect on the Charlie death visions later on either because a) it would be weird for Des to suddenly start caring about an issue he has ignored all through S4 b) it seems like the Claire guilt is going to be Jack/Kates story. So I'm left with a hole in Desmonds story which I think is wrong. They have simplified Desmond to this "I've got my Penny so I'm super" drone making it seem like as long as Des has what he wants he has no guilt or concern for anyone else.

I'm not just saying this because I want a "Charlie rant". I think they are making Desmond and the storyline inconsistent. They spent the whole of S3 building up his prophecy arc and now they have dropped it without any explainations or reflection. Obviously people DO care because there have been countless threads questioning the Claire/Aaron vision and if Charlies sacrifice was for nothing.
I'm sure the writer's strike threw a bit of a wrench into their S4 plans.

I don't feel Desmond used Charlie. Remember in the other episode when Charlie was supposed to get killed by the arrow and Desmond couldn't allow it to happen in the end. He was sure it was Penny that was coming and was afraid to change things but he did, to save Charlie's life. As far as the looking glass Desmond gave Charlie the choice and even tried to talk him out of it and go himself once it came down to it but Charlie hit him on the head to stop him. I believe Desmonds vission and will patiently wait for this eventually play out. How? I have no idea.

We don't agree on anything
We won't
No need to continue trying

Only to say I am confident they will re-visit all of this in the future...they almost have to.

There is something that came out this season, that we really hadn't heard of since season 1, but I cannot think of what it is...but I remember when it came up ...and it wasn't just the numbers in Hurley's car all being together again...we haven't seen that for awhile either.

Something...if I think of it, or if you recall it...it'll get mentioned.

Anyways, this won't be left hanging forever, it'll get attention eventually.

He dove down because Mikhail was shooting at him...

Are we all forgetting Desmond hightailing it out of the hatch the minute Jack and John showed up and were willing to push the button??

He woke up from Charlie knocking him out to Mikhail shooting at him. Remember? Charlie knocked him out becuase Des was going to go down in his place?

Desmond was a prisoner in the hatch for three years before they came. He was so desperate that he contemplated suicide.

I think Des' vision is going to be explained in one of 3 ways:

1-Des saw that he had to lie in order to reunite with Penny (I do not think that this makes any sense whatsoever, but you never know)
2-The vision was not given a date, maybe it will still come true if and when the O6 get back to the island
3-Des saw Aaron on the helipcopter and assumed that Claire would never have let him be seperated from her.

If someone didn't swim down to the Looking Glass no one would have gotten off the Island, are you all forgeting that, to say Charlie died for nothing is ridiculous. I can't believe people are still upset about Charlie's death, he died a hero no one could have asked for a better death, and since he was marked from the plane I think three seasons is enough time to evade death, he should have died in the plane when the food cart came crashing down where he had just moved from, and all the time's in the show when he should have died but somone intervened, mainly Jack and Desmond, infact Charlie was dead in season 1 but Jack just couldn't "Let it go"

Desmond wasn't maliciously wrong, just a little confused, I agree with someone else who postedd that Desmond probably saw Aaron on the chopper and figured that Claire was the one holding him.

If someone didn't swim down to the Looking Glass no one would have gotten off the Island, are you all forgeting that, to say Charlie died for nothing is ridiculous.

With all due respect..I am not sure if I totally agree. But maybe you can persuade to see it from your point of view.

Let's say that Charlie doesn't sacrifice his life. Does that mean that the freighties are never going to take a helicopter to the island???

Didn't Minkowski and his friend take a boat to the island before the jamming signal was turned off?

Although I agree that Charlie is a hero, I wonder if his death could have been avoided.

As far as Des is concerned, another possibility is that he did see the vision of Claire and Aaron, but he altered the future by taking different actions. For example, his first vision shows Charlie getting shot with an arrow. Des tells Hurley that if any of the "puzzle pieces" are changed, the result is the "picture on the front of the box will change". Des changes one of the pieces by saving Charlie from the arrow.

So maybe by changing this piece, the end result was affected.

Desmond said the visions he gets aren't entirely clear all the time. I think he saw Kate with Aaron and assumed it was Claire holding him.

And I wouldn't exactly call Desmond selfish. Even Locke is more selfish than Desmond, and Kate ...let's not even go there :biggrin:

I'm in the school of thought that Desmonds vision is correct, He does see claire and Aaron get on the chopper together. As we know as Ben has said EVERYONE needs to go back to the island together, including Aaron. I think at the the end of the show we will see Claire and Aaron getting on the Chopper. I'm sure it will be interesting to see how we get from here to that point, but I believe Desmond knew Charlie had to die to make it happen. I don't think his vision showed anything to do with him getting back to Penny because Des says to Charlie before Charlie whacks him with the oar " Maybe I keep seeing you die because I'm supposed to take your place" If Des' vision showed him getting back with Penny I doubt he would have been willing to go to the Looking glass instead of Charlie.

I'm really not sure about this one, but we should all be careful about "changing the rules" and what it meant... We don't really know what it meant, but it's pretty obvious it had something to do with changing the present/future given Ben's face when Alex was murdered... The whole thing with moving the Island was surely not according to plan (it was a shock for Ben as well to realize he had to leave) either, so one can assume that Claire walking off with Christian who told Locke to move the Island was not according to any plan...

So, Desmond probably saw Claire get on the chopper with Aaron... but it didn't happen because of... everything... Maybe Desmond saw some woman and thought it was Claire, but even if he's not an absolute goody, we can all rest assured that he would not willingly tell a man/friend to go and die so he could get on the boat...

If the show ever has Claire and Aaron get on the helicopter together after they all go back, that will mean Desmond's vision was a vision of at least 3 years in the future, if not 4 or more. I'd say this goes contrary to his previous visions, and I am in the "Desmond lied" boat. But please known Desmond is one of my favorite characters and I see nothing wrong with his lie. He knows Charlie must die, and sees Aaron get off the island and sees himself with Penny...pretty easy decision

If the show ever has Claire and Aaron get on the helicopter together after they all go back, that will mean Desmond's vision was a vision of at least 3 years in the future, if not 4 or more. I'd say this goes contrary to his previous visions, and I am in the "Desmond lied" boat. But please known Desmond is one of my favorite characters and I see nothing wrong with his lie. He knows Charlie must die, and sees Aaron get off the island and sees himself with Penny...pretty easy decision

I agree. If Desmond's vison was of Claire and a 3 year old Aaron getting on a helicopter, wouldn't Des realize that turning off the jamming signal now has very little (if anything) to do with a rescue 3 years from now?

I don't know if Desmond lied or if the future was altered - but we know the Desmond had already saved Charlie several times and Charlie was already living on borrowed time.

I can't believe people are still upset about Charlie's death, he died a hero no one could have asked for a better death, and since he was marked from the plane I think three seasons is enough time to evade death, he should have died in the plane when the food cart came crashing down where he had just moved from, and all the time's in the show when he should have died but somone intervened, mainly Jack and Desmond, infact Charlie was dead in season 1 but Jack just couldn't "Let it go"

I think the frustration over Charlie's death comes from how unecessary it seemed. Not all the tasks he completed, but when he closed the door, it seemed like he could have gotten out of the room instead. I know that's been argued to death on this board. Still... didn't and doesn't make sense to me.

I agree. If Desmond's vison was of Claire and a 3 year old Aaron getting on a helicopter, wouldn't Des realize that turning off the jamming signal now has very little (if anything) to do with a rescue 3 years from now?


Agreed!

Desmond was lying about Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter.

I agree about Charlies heroism, but I'm complaining about the storytelling here. The writers hyped up that Charlie's death was going to be a big important sacrifice for the greater good. They asked the viewers to care about Charlie, his list, his ring, Claire and Aarons rescue, the reason he was sacrificing himself, etc - then they swept all these things under the carpet as if they didn't matter. I've never felt more cheated by a story.

It also makes the whole "redemption" theme seem cruel and futile. Charlie redeemed himself big time - what was his reward? To be killed by the fate/universe and not even by granted his dying wish or recieve an recognition from his friends for his heroism (a funeral maybe?). Why should the characters even bother trying to be good people when the island is this merciless?

It's challenging to follow a serialized story. It's no wonder that writers such as TPTB, and Charles Dickens, who endeavor to write stories in such forms, take so much flack. It takes a lot more patience on the part of the reader/viewer than any other form of storytelling. Even the slowest reader can get through even the longest novel in less than six years! Until the end of the story we have no way of judging that anything is "swept under the carpet." The writers have obviously not forgotten about Claire, Aaron, or Charlie -- the latter still being an important character to the development of the story despite being dead. So I don't think it should be THAT hard to have a little bit of faith in where it is going.

The list and the ring were part of the story of Charlie's journey to redemption. Like most journeys to redemption, it ended in self-sacrifice and death; and its reward was the redemption itself. He had faith in the meaningfulness of his actions, but he did not do it in exchange for some guarantee of what the future would hold. However, what the future was to hold, we only know the short term -- which in terms of deriving meaning and significance, is the same thing as knowing nothing.

I doubt we'll hear more about the list, as its meaning was only in the context of that journey, which is now finished. If Desmond somehow managed to hang onto it through everything, I don't see any element of the story being served by us watching Claire reading it and crying -- except possibly for those of us who for whatever reason suspect that she isn't feeling mournful enough. The ring, OTOH, I rather suspect we will see again.
100%
Didn't see Claire on board that helicopter when it took off from the island to the freighter nor was she included in the Oceanic 6 and thus made it to the "real" world. Sice Desmond told Charlie BOTH Aaron and CLAIRE would be on the rescue helicopter I would say that he didn't tell Charlie the truth

When we first saw it, it was not a bad assumption that the helicopter from Widmore's boat was the same one from Desmond's vision, given what we knew at the time. But when that helicopter is destroyed, it's time to let go of that assumption! The mind thinks by relating things to each other, so we naturally join things to the other things we know, since we can't join them to the things we don't know. There might be 6 helicopters in this story, but we have a time-bias towards assuming at this point that any referenced helicopter must be one of the two that we already know about by the end of season 4. That might be a "reasonable" bias, but it's not a rational one, unless we are consciously keeping it in check against the scope of all that we remain ignorant of.

Compensating for this bias towards what we already know is 99% of the process of intelligent thought. In fact, I think one of the most profound things that we can become (somewhat) conscious of, is the infinite amount by which our knowledges is exceeded by our ignorances. Socrates, Galileo and Confucius all wrote profoundly on that subject. But I'm definitely digressing from helicopters....:biggrin:
100%
If Desmond's vison was of Claire and a 3 year old Aaron getting on a helicopter, wouldn't Des realize that turning off the jamming signal now has very little (if anything) to do with a rescue 3 years from now?
He gets the flashes all at once, and then he assumes that they are all part of a sequence of events -- that if one of those events fails to happen, that chain will be different and there will be a different outcome. That's how it worked with the Parachute vision. That vision included him seeing Penny -- actually, seeing Penny from the last time he was with her, at the stadium. The way that vision played out, that sequence of events did indeed lead to him being with Penny, but not at all as quickly as he had assumed. He assumed it would be her parachuting to the island, but it would take weeks for what he saw to actually play out. Not only that, but the vision was not just flashes from the future -- it was more like a prophetic dream, in that he saw in image from the past that apparently meant something about what that sequence of events would lead to in the future.

So it is possible that he saw Claire get on a helicopter with an infant Aaron, but like the flash of Penny, it was only conveying meaning, in a way he would recognize, rather than being not a literal scene from the future.

But regardless of how far in the future the Claire and Aaron may or may not get on that helicopter, the importance of Charlie's role becomes in that sequence of events becomes no less significant. I think that's another example of "time-bias" in human thought -- it's much harder to clearly see cause-and-effect relationships the further they are separated in time. But I think that concept is central to the overall story arc, as alluded to by Locke in S1:
What happened to him at that plane was a part of a chain of events that led us here -- that led us down a path -- that led you and me to this day, to right now. Jack: And where does that path end, John? Locke: The path ends at the hatch. The hatch, Jack.
But the hatch obviously wasn't the end. It was just the beginning. More time-bias! He was filling in the gaps with what he already knew about. Assuming the path was shorter than it really was. However, the substance of his faith was correct -- that there was a greater power leading them down a necessary chain of events for a greater purpose. This is absolutely brilliant writing.

The situation with Charlie is no different. It's even more obvious that his action was essential to everything that unfolds afterwards, including whatever happens to Claire and Aaron.

People respond that he could have lived if he hadn't closed the door. While we can debate the validity of that assertion, he didn't have time to reflect back to physics classes, or perform a structural analysis. He had a split second in which was potentially his only chance to save Desmond and he took it rather than risking Desmond's life for the chance of saving his own. It was born out of the selflessness with which he was undertaking the entire venture.

Please don't tell me what I'm thinking. It's rude.

.... I agree that the finale wasn't the time for Des to reflect on his visions. They should have done much earlier in the season (like they said they were going to). They could have done something earlier to show Desmond caring about Claire/Aaron getting rescued ...... I don't believe Desmond is going to reflect on the Charlie death visions later on either because a) it would be weird for Des to suddenly start caring about an issue he has ignored all through S4 .....
Apologies if my comment came off as rude. This was my response to criticism Desmond received for not "reacting" to Charlie's death in connection to Claire during the chaotic finale.

Unfortunately, there was no earlier time Desmond could have reflected on his vision. The vision didn't prove to be incorrect until that helicopter took off without Claire.
They spent the whole of S3 building up his prophecy arc and now they have dropped it without any explainations or reflection. Obviously people DO care because there have been countless threads questioning the Claire/Aaron vision and if Charlies sacrifice was for nothing.I don't believe the subject has been dropped. As viewers, we were only certain that the Claire/Aaron/Helicopter vision did not play out until the finale. Now we're supposed to be asking ourselves what went astray.

Along the same lines....not only did Claire not make it off the Island with Aaron, we now know that leaving the Island was actually a BAD thing. What does that say for dying to unblock communication with the freighter??

Even so, none of this definitively points to Desmond lying.

Think about this..We saw some of Desmond's other visions that never came to be either (Charlie being shot with an arrow). These visions never came to be because Des interfered by trying to change destiny but only succeeding to postpone it a bit.

Something could have interfered with the Claire/Aaron vision as well. Christian was the interference. He lead Claire to the cabin and prevented her from leaving the Island. For good or for bad, I can't yet say.

So Des may never see Claire get on the helicopter with infant Aaron just as he never saw Charlie die by lightening or arrow. Still the ultimate outcome, Claire and Aaron safely together, can still come to be.

Wow, a lot of interesting posts to read!

I'm in the 'Christian changed it' camp. If he hadn't shown up and taken Claire off, she would've been with Sawyer and Miles with Aaron back at the beach, probably been on the first Zodiac trip to the frieghter, and then definitely would've been on the chopper. In fact, she would've been on it before anyone else the second they docked on the ship, because throughout LOST, from S1 onward, we've seen the concern everyone has for her and Aaron. Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley or anyone else would have made her get in before they did, during the panicked refueling.
But Christian took her away.... something Des couldn't have predicted.

Captain Falafel, I agree with you about dropping the Prophecy arc in S4. They sort of seemed to replace it with the Time thing in Constant (which isn't the same thing at all; they're hardly interchangeable). And Charlie's death, barring TBOTE, didn't receive much attention at all. I won't deny how odd that felt, considering the time Des spent with him in S3 and hell, the bond he had with Claire. But I too am inclined to think that some issues were ignored due the the Strike.

I'm in the 'Christian changed it' camp. If he hadn't shown up and taken Claire off, she would've been with Sawyer and Miles with Aaron back at the beach, probably been on the first Zodiac trip to the frieghter, and then definitely would've been on the chopper.
That's a good point. That seems very likely.

That would also provide a very simple explanation for what Christian is doing with her. In that scenario, it could be that Claire dies in the helicopter crash. He pulls her out of that scenario to save her life. And by showing her the future outcomes, she agrees to follow the the only scenario where both she and Aaron will live -- and that's the one with her staying and Aaron leaving.

Captain Falafel, I agree with you about dropping the Prophecy arc in S4. They sort of seemed to replace it with the Time thing in Constant (which isn't the same thing at all; they're hardly interchangeable). And Charlie's death, barring TBOTE, didn't receive much attention at all. I won't deny how odd that felt, considering the time Des spent with him in S3 and hell, the bond he had with Claire. But I too am inclined to think that some issues were ignored due the the Strike.
I don't think they "drop" things. They just like to show things from different angles to illustrate how dependent our understanding of things is upon our perspective. I think in the perspective of the story (rather than in the perspective of the 8 months we have to wait just to get the next chapter), nothing is being neglected. It would feel a lot different if we could watch it all at once.

Well, I think that with only 34 hours left, there will be stuff that gets dropped. They can't possibly address every single plotline that's been left hanging since S1 AND give us the rest of the story in only 34 hours.

There will be storylines and questions that will be left hanging forever.

But Christian took her away.... something Des couldn't have predicted.

Huh? He could have predicted that, he was supposed to be seeing visions of the future! Then what was the point of Desmond's vision if they are not of the future? Just visions? He wasn't predicting things, he was seeing things that he said had to happen, especially Charlie's death. If Christian had the ability to change his visions, why couldn't Charlie as well? He could've said "Nah, I don't want to die today Des, I'm not going down there." The only way Desmond's visions make sense is if they are real, or are a lie, I don't believe they can be "changed" by anyone but Desmond himself, otherwise they are not prophecies, just things Desmond sees with no relation to the real world.

Huh? He could have predicted that, he was supposed to be seeing visions of the future! Then what was the point of Desmond's vision if they are not of the future? Just visions? He wasn't predicting things, he was seeing things that he said had to happen, especially Charlie's death. If Christian had the ability to change his visions, why couldn't Charlie as well? He could've said "Nah, I don't want to die today Des, I'm not going down there." The only way Desmond's visions make sense is if they are real, or are a lie, I don't believe they can be "changed" by anyone but Desmond himself, otherwise they are not prophecies, just things Desmond sees with no relation to the real world.

Why do you say that a prophesy can only be changed by the prophet? That's a rule I've never heard of. They are not in fact prophesies, as prophesies are foretelling of what WILL NECESSARILY happen. There would have been no point to them if they were prophesies, as they would have been unchangeable. What they were was visions of a sequence of events that show what the present course of things is leading to. If Desmond can change them, then anyone can change them. The visions provided a stimulus that could be used to change the course of events. So anyone who he shared that information with could change the course. Also, anyone else that had an "outside" source of knowledge could change them... say, someone else having the same sort of visions -- or someone who is existing independently of time and space, like Jacob, who could illuminate Christian as to the different courses of events that could follow from the present.

It was by ultimately deciding to sharing his information with Charlie, that Desmond decided to put Charlie in control, so that he could make an informed decision about which course to take. That's what made Charlie's decision heroic. Yes, Charlie could have absolutely said, "nah, I don't want to die today -- I'm not going down there." But he knew that that course of events was one that -- barring outside interference -- would lead to Claire and Aaron getting onto a helicopter at some point in the future. So he chose that one instead of some other unknown course in which he didn't die that day.
100%
Well, I think that with only 34 hours left, there will be stuff that gets dropped. They can't possibly address every single plotline that's been left hanging since S1 AND give us the rest of the story in only 34 hours.

There will be storylines and questions that will be left hanging forever.

34 hours is a whole lot of time!! On a whim I thought to look up the running length of the audio book of Desmond's, "Our Mutual Friend", a novel with at least as many plot lines as Lost, and being a novel, it provides far more detail in its story than any visual medium can. Total running time: 33.5 hours!! (http://www.v-chip.org/v-chip_fiction/Classics/our-mutual-friend.html) And that, of course, is for the entire story, not just half of it.

(Anyone interested in listening to it, a free version is here (http://www.archive.org/details/our_mutual_friend_0707_librivox).)

Why do you say that a prophesy can only be changed by the prophet? That's a rule I've never heard of. They are not in fact prophesies, as prophesies are foretelling of what WILL NECESSARILY happen. There would have been no point to them if they were prophesies, as they would have been unchangeable. What they were was visions of a sequence of events that show what the present course of things is leading to. If Desmond can change them, then anyone can change them. The visions provided a stimulus that could be used to change the course of events. So anyone who he shared that information with could change the course. Also, anyone else that had an "outside" source of knowledge could change them... say, someone else having the same sort of visions -- or someone who is existing independently of time and space, like Jacob, who could illuminate Christian as to the different courses of events that could follow from the present.

It was by ultimately deciding to sharing his information with Charlie, that Desmond decided to put Charlie in control, so that he could make an informed decision about which course to take. That's what made Charlie's decision heroic. Yes, Charlie could have absolutely said, "nah, I don't want to die today -- I'm not going down there." But he knew that that course of events was one that -- barring outside interference -- would lead to Claire and Aaron getting onto a helicopter at some point in the future. So he chose that one instead of some other unknown course in which he didn't die that day.


I agree with this. The way I see it is that whenever Des had a flash (there's a reason they are not called visions on the show), he was seeing the sequence of events with the highest probability of occurrence at that time, if all circumstances remained the same. The show has also told us that "you can't change the future", so, certain events will happen, no matter what you do (Charlie died), because, if you change something the Universe will course correct and make it happen, anyway.

If we try to put it in a graphical way using letters to identify events and the length of the lines to identify the amount of time that passes between events (the longer the line, the more time will pass). We'd have something like this:

Des' flash about Claire in the helicopter with Aaron the first time he saw it, let's call this Course # 1:

Probability of occurrence: 95%
Sequence of events:

A--->B--->C------>D----------------------->E----->Q

where:

A= Charlie flips the switch
B= Station floods
C= Charlie dies
D= Freighties arrive
E= Claire gets on the chopper with Aaron
Q= Claire and Aaron are saved and off the island

At the same time that Des had this flash, there were other possible courses (2, 3, 4, 5, etc), but they all had lower probabilities and involved other events that would be course corrections (let's bold all course corrections). For example:


Course # 2:

Probability of occurrence: 3%
Sequence of events:

A--->M-->N-->O-->B--->C------>D---------------------->E------>Q

where:

A= Charlie flips the switch
M= Desmond sees Mikhail move
N= Desmond kills Mikhail for real
O= Course correction: small earthquake causes door in the comms room to jam shut and cracks the stations walls, water starts coming in
B= Station floods
C= Charlie dies
D= Freighties arrive
E= Claire gets on the chopper with Aaron
Q= Claire and Aaron are saved and off the island


Then something happened that changed the probabilities of all possible courses; it could have been Keamy killing Alex ("he changed the rules") or some other thing that might not have seemed important to us upon first viewing, but that event, let's call it event X gave Desmond's flash a lower probability (say 5%) and it gave another sequence of events a higher probability. For example:


Course # 3:

Probability of occurrence: 99%
Sequence of events:

A--->B--->C------>D----------->X-->F-->G---->E-->H-->I

where:

A= Charlie flips the switch
B= Station floods
C= Charlie dies
D= Freighties arrive
X= Keamy kills Alex
F= Ben calls Smokey, who seriously injures one of Keamy's crew
G= Keamy decides to go back to the boat and implement the secondary protocol
E= Claire gets on the chopper with Aaron
H= Chopper crashes
I= Claire dies

So, a course correction is designed because event Q (Claire and Aaron are saved and off the island) must always happen. So, we'd have something like this:


Course # 4:

Probability of occurrence: 98%
Sequence of events:

A--->B--->C------>D---------->X-->F-->G---->J---->K----------------------->L-------->E----->Q

where:

A= Charlie flips the switch
B= Station floods
C= Charlie dies
D= Freighties arrive
X= Keamy kills Alex
F= Ben calls Smokey, who seriously injures one of Keamy's crew
G= Keamy decides to go back to the boat and implement the secondary protocol
J= Course Correction: Christian shows up and takes Claire away
K= Aaron makes it off the island
L= The O6 return and do whatever it is they need to do
E= Claire gets on the chopper with Aaron
Q= Claire and Aaron are saved and off the island


34 hours is a whole lot of time!! On a whim I thought to look up the running length of the audio book of Desmond's, "Our Mutual Friend", a novel with at least as many plot lines as Lost, and being a novel, it provides far more detail in its story than any visual medium can. Total running time: 33.5 hours!! (http://www.v-chip.org/v-chip_fiction/Classics/our-mutual-friend.html) And that, of course, is for the entire story, not just half of it.

(Anyone interested in listening to it, a free version is here (http://www.archive.org/details/our_mutual_friend_0707_librivox).)

Yet, Lost has taken a lot longer than that to almost walk around in circles and hasn't given us much in terms of resolving plotlines. I don't deny these writers are smart, but they pale in comparison to Mr. Dickens, IMO, who, by the time the story was past the midpoint had resolved plenty of plotlines set up at the beginning.

For me, to compare what a literary legend can accomplish in 33 hours to what the Lost writers can accomplish in the same amount of time, is apple and oranges.

Before you blast TPTB for errors, sit back and wait to see how things play out.

Okay. waits patiently til season four is over.

So what happened to Desmond's prediction?

Okay. waits patiently til season four is over.

So what happened to Desmond's prediction?

Snap!!! :biggrin:

Well, I think that with only 34 hours left, there will be stuff that gets dropped. They can't possibly address every single plotline that's been left hanging since S1 AND give us the rest of the story in only 34 hours...There will be storylines and questions that will be left hanging forever.
But not this one please!!! As we know three whole episodes were dedicated to Desmond's flashes..FBYE, Greatest Hits, and TTLG. That's not just "stuff", it's not even just a storyline. These episodes dealt with a major theme, that of destiny.

The general questions that come along like "is everyone a slave to destiny?" "what part does free will play?" "can one change the future/destiny or will course correction step in every time?" ...will definately not be answered as real answers to these questions don't exist BUT if Desmond's flashes regarding the "destiny" of Claire and Aaron are never addressed, the whole subject matter of destiny/fate/science is a wash.

Desmond's flash about Charlie flipping the switch and Claire and Aaron boarding a helicopter was either:
1. a lie- IMO a stupid copout on the part of the story tellers. It turns a known character on the "good guy" team into a villian after four whole seasons. Ben is a liar, that's a given, but if we are to start doubting everyone there is little chance to be invested in this story as it is being told.

2. connected to the destiny/course correction theme- leading to the conclusion that destiny did have Claire and Aaron getting off the Island together, if not by helicopter then by some other means. Someone/something (my guess is the C.S ghost) attempted to change that destiny, but ultimately, via course correction, it will play out the way it was supposed to.

I don't need for everything to be spelled out. I would be satisfied to just be equipped to conclude things on my own. But PLEASE let TPTB at least equip us.

I agree that things are looking a bit disappointing given the limited time TPTB have left to answer soooo many questions and start tying this whole mess up. Equally disappointing is that after this seasons finale we feel even further away from a cohesive story unravelling.

In my mind we should have a "tree" where lots of events are first scattered about in tiny branches. As time passed a few of these events/questions/mysteries etc. should've started to have commonalities and join in a larger branch. So on and so on until the trunk of the tree is the last episode of S6.

Instead we have the widest "branchiest" tree ever!

The next two seasons may be a bit crunched as (hopefully) questions are answered and the puzzle starts looking more and more complete. Questions that fall in the major league category should be answered at the very least indirectly. If not, I will have to believe that there were never answers in the first place.

Well, I think that with only 34 hours left, there will be stuff that gets dropped. They can't possibly address every single plotline that's been left hanging since S1 AND give us the rest of the story in only 34 hours.

There will be storylines and questions that will be left hanging forever.

I understand this more than I'd like too. But this is even more stressful. Subtract commercials and each epi is about 42 minutes. 34 epis x 42 = 1,428 minutes of actual show divided by 60 = 23.8 hours! ARG! The entire rest of the show could be viewed (on HBO without commercials) in less than one day! :frown:

I hope I'm wrong in my math here.

Well, I think that with only 34 hours left, there will be stuff that gets dropped. They can't possibly address every single plotline that's been left hanging since S1 AND give us the rest of the story in only 34 hours.

There will be storylines and questions that will be left hanging forever.

Very true CL.....very true. As other rabid Harry Potter fans can attest too, this is exactly what happened with the HP series. Lots of questions were left unanswered and she wasn't even under a time constraint. The major questions were answered but some background questions were left hanging, and I can see the same thing happening with LOST. Just like JKR answered some of those questions in later interviews, (and promises a Hogwarts encyclopedia)I can see Darlton answering some of the questions on the 'Extras' sections of the DVD/Blu Ray that weren't answered in the show.

When LOST is done though, I don't believe Desmond's Claire/Aaron vision will be unresolved, we'll have an answer one way or another but that certainly doesn't mean everyone will like the answer!

Yet, Lost has taken a lot longer than that to almost walk around in circles and hasn't given us much in terms of resolving plotlines. I don't deny these writers are smart, but they pale in comparison to Mr. Dickens, IMO, who, by the time the story was past the midpoint had resolved plenty of plotlines set up at the beginning.

For me, to compare what a literary legend can accomplish in 33 hours to what the Lost writers can accomplish in the same amount of time, is apple and oranges.

The only thing that can be considered "walking around in circles" would be season 3, when they still didn't have a deal and didn't know how much time they were going to have to stretch the story into.

As for not resolving plotlines, I'm willing to bet that they've resolved a greater percentage of the plotlines that have been started, compared to what is resolved 2/3s of the way through "Our Mutual Friend." All the flash-back plotlines of the original characters have been resolved. Those alone probably account for the majority of what can be considered "plotlines."

Dickens received all the same criticisms, if not more, when he was writing, including the ubiquitous "he's making it up as he goes along." And when posterity views Lost from the perspective of time, based on what I've seen of it so far, I think D&C will receive all the same praise as Dickens.

Okay. waits patiently til season four is over.

So what happened to Desmond's prediction?
If this is the modern interpretation of patience, I disapprove. ;)

I agree that things are looking a bit disappointing given the limited time TPTB have left to answer soooo many questions and start tying this whole mess up. Equally disappointing is that after this seasons finale we feel even further away from a cohesive story unravelling.

In my mind we should have a "tree" where lots of events are first scattered about in tiny branches. As time passed a few of these events/questions/mysteries etc. should've started to have commonalities and join in a larger branch. So on and so on until the trunk of the tree is the last episode of S6.

Instead we have the widest "branchiest" tree ever!
I totally can't understand why you have that impression. To me it is proceeding exactly as you described. Of course, depending on the type of tree, and can tend to get even more complicated and confusing as you proceed towards the trunk. But both the storylines as well as the physical explanations are all coalescing into common branches, or at the very least heading in that direction.

Physically, the negatively charged exotic matter serves as the fundamental branch from which ALL the island's special properties can be derived. Story-wise, the explanations that Locke will now have access to, also coincide with the information that we should now be learning of Charlotte's backstory, Ben's backstory, Widmore's, and probably even Danielle's. The O6 are on a course to return to a common destiny on the island. Jack is on course to find a common philosophy with Locke,

But this is even more stressful. Subtract commercials and each epi is about 42 minutes. 34 epis x 42 = 1,428 minutes of actual show divided by 60 = 23.8 hours! ARG! The entire rest of the show could be viewed (on HBO without commercials) in less than one day! :frown: I hope I'm wrong in my math here.

I confirm your math. What I can't understand is by what measure 24 hours is too little time to tell the rest of the story. By what measure? Compared to what? Everything we've seen so far, including all the backstories of Locke, Claire, Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Charlie, Shannon and Boone, Eko, Ana-Lucia, Ben, Juliette... plus all the pre-deal filler, Nikki, Pablo, is only about 62 hours, about 2 1/2 days.

To conclude everything, including the backstories of DHARMA, Widmore, Ben, Daniel, Charlotte, and possibly Miles, 24 hours seems like, if anything, it's erring on the long side. If you give 5 flashback "centric" episodes each to Daniel and Charlotte, and 10 split between DHARMA/Widmore/Ben, which would seem more than ample, that still leaves 14 episodes.

As other rabid Harry Potter fans can attest too, this is exactly what happened with the HP series. Lots of questions were left unanswered and she wasn't even under a time constraint. The major questions were answered but some background questions were left hanging, and I can see the same thing happening with LOST.

When LOST is done though, I don't believe Desmond's Claire/Aaron vision will be unresolved, we'll have an answer one way or another but that certainly doesn't mean everyone will like the answer!

Indeed -- trying to answer ever minor question would be horrible writing. It's not giving the audience any credit for having intelligence of their own. I agree that the visions are far too important to go unresolved. They will be resolved. I agree that D&C will likely provide ancillary information after it's over, as they've been doing it all along as well.

But both the storylines as well as the physical explanations are all coalescing into common branches, or at the very least heading in that direction.

Physically, the negatively charged exotic matter serves as the fundamental branch from which ALL the island's special properties can be derived. Story-wise, the explanations that Locke will now have access to, also coincide with the information that we should now be learning of Charlotte's backstory, Ben's backstory, Widmore's, and probably even Danielle's. The O6 are on a course to return to a common destiny on the island. Jack is on course to find a common philosophy with Locke, .
Yes, the E.M properties of the Island appear to be the explanation for many of the Island's properties, but I still hold to my comment about the puzzle pieces still not beginning to fit together.

The backstories of Ben and Widmore would certainly answer a lot as will hearing Charlotte's, Faraday's, and Mile's explanations but these have still yet to be seen or heard.

A lot of people keep saying that maybe the flash of Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper is when the O6 finally get back to the island. But wouldn't Desmond realize that when he told Charlie to die that it would be a few years before Claire and Aaron were rescued?

If he saw Claire and toddler Aaron getting rescued together in his flash, then wouldn't he think about this while Kate was holding baby Aaron before Penny showed up?

BTW, I'm getting really frustrated with the fact that since the beginning of the season one the losties have been trying to get off the island. Now, 6 of them have and they have to go back. To me the whole O6 thing has caused a lot of issues. Locke's dead, the island's moved, Charlie dead, Desmond's premonition didn't happen, Claire's chillin' in Jacob's cabin, and Sawyer and Juliet are having a drink on the beach. AAHHHHHH! I mean, what gives??!! :34853_huh:

A lot of people keep saying that maybe the flash of Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper is when the O6 finally get back to the island. But wouldn't Desmond realize that when he told Charlie to die that it would be a few years before Claire and Aaron were rescued?

If he saw Claire and toddler Aaron getting rescued together in his flash, then wouldn't he think about this while Kate was holding baby Aaron before Penny showed up?

BTW, I'm getting really frustrated with the fact that since the beginning of the season one the losties have been trying to get off the island. Now, 6 of them have and they have to go back. To me the whole O6 thing has caused a lot of issues. Locke's dead, the island's moved, Charlie dead, Desmond's premonition didn't happen, Claire's chillin' in Jacob's cabin, and Sawyer and Juliet are having a drink on the beach. AAHHHHHH! I mean, what gives??!! :34853_huh:

I think the writers intended for us to see it this way:

Desmond saw a true flash. Claire with baby Aaron getting on the chopper.
Someone did something that changed that flash, just as Desmond had been able, several times before, to prevent Charlie's death.
So, one of the events we saw happening between the time Desmond had his flash of Charlie in TLG and the time they got on the helicopter was something that changed the course and delayed the future (Claire and Aaron in the chopper)
Now the Universe is course correcting that event and everything that is happening is designed to get all the players in place for Desmond's flash of Claire and Aaron getting on a chopper to come true. No one is allowed to die, horrible things happened on the island, the dead are haunting the O6, and so on... All of that is happening so that Desmond's original flash can become a reality.
In the past, Desmond got new flashes every time the future picture changed, But Desmond has gone through the island's EM barrier and gotten out. This explains two things:

Desmond has stopped having flashes, therefore, he doesn't get to see the new picture, which is Claire, getting on a chopper with a much older Aaron
The event that changed the course (the original flash that Desmond had) happened AFTER Desmond left the island.

I believe this is the same philosophy running through other plotlines on the show, as well (how they survived the crash, why these particular people got on the plane, etc.)

Free Will and Fate are two of the hugest themes in LOST, I don't think they would even dare leave this unresolved. ;)

Like everything else on LOST, we'll just have to wait to find out.

Until proven otherwise I'm sticking with your theory, CrazyLatin007. That's the most sense I've gathered from any of the ideas on this board!

Free Will and Fate are two of the hugest themes in LOST, I don't think they would even dare leave this unresolved. ;)

Like everything else on LOST, we'll just have to wait to find out.

Until proven otherwise I'm sticking with your theory, CrazyLatin007. That's the most sense I've gathered from any of the ideas on this board!

Thanks, UnsungHero, you can all me CL, BTW, it's a lot shorter ;)

Free Will and Fate are two of the hugest themes in LOST, I don't think they would even dare leave this unresolved. ;)

Like everything else on LOST, we'll just have to wait to find out.

Until proven otherwise I'm sticking with your theory, CrazyLatin007. That's the most sense I've gathered from any of the ideas on this board![/URL]

CL does have a great theory! However, that could mean that Ben knows this and is trying to help course correct? Why kill all those people supposibly working for Widmore? Will all of Sayid's killing be undone when the "universe corrects itself"? Will Nadia be alive again? So, nothing in 2005 forward will ever happen?

Desmond has been a pawn of Widmore's since the begining. I just rewatched the video in Room 23 and clip 41 sure looks like Desmond's boat. Just a coincidence? [url]http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Room_23 (http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=23391)

CL does have a great theory! However, that could mean that Ben knows this and is trying to help course correct? Why kill all those people supposibly working for Widmore? Will all of Sayid's killing be undone when the "universe corrects itself"? Will Nadia be alive again? So, nothing in 2005 forward will ever happen?

I think course correction, as has been introduced on the show, has to do with events that have not happened yet. Not with changing the past. If course correction worked backward, then the Universe could make it so that Desmond couldn't find anything to make a lightning rod, or be too late to save Charlie from drowning rescuing Claire, etc.

So far what we've been shown is that some events WILL happen, no matter what any of the characters do (Charlie has to die), but that the HOW that event happens is variable (Charlie "dies" by lightning, drowning, arrow, etc.) and if the event is avoided somehow (Desmond intervening every time he had a flash), then the universe will create another set of circumstances that will bring about said event (course correction).

Okay, so the only thing to correct is getting Claire off the Island, since Aaron already is. Why would it have to course correct for them to both go off together? Isn't the point just they get off the Island?

Like Charlie has to die, it doesn't matter how, right?

Okay, so the only thing to correct is getting Claire off the Island, since Aaron already is. Why would it have to course correct for them to both go off together? Isn't the point just they get off the Island?

Like Charlie has to die, it doesn't matter how, right?

That's a great observation. I think you're right, it doesn't have to be Aaron and Claire getting on the chopper together. It has to be that they both get off the island and that Claire is the one raising Aaron.

Now, that makes me see Claire's comment to Kate to never bring Aaron back in another light. I always wondered how they'd deal with the O6 returning to the island with a toddler in tow. Getting there might not be a problem, but watching over Aaron after they get back would certainly slow someone up (whoever is charged with taking care of him).

Maybe it's a set up to leave Aaron with his nanny, while the rest of the O6 go back and rescue Claire, and do whatever it is they are destined to do on that island.

That's a great observation. I think you're right, it doesn't have to be Aaron and Claire getting on the chopper together. It has to be that they both get off the island and that Claire is the one raising Aaron.

Now, that makes me see Claire's comment to Kate to never bring Aaron back in another light. I always wondered how they'd deal with the O6 returning to the island with a toddler in tow. Getting there might not be a problem, but watching over Aaron after they get back would certainly slow someone up (whoever is charged with taking care of him).

Maybe it's a set up to leave Aaron with his nanny, while the rest of the O6 go back and rescue Claire, and do whatever it is they are destined to do on that island.

What about Widmore watching Aaron? Or maybe Claire's mum? Who would Kate trust to look after little Aaron? Sawyer's old girl-friend?

The thing is that Desmond's consciousness moved through time. He wasn't clairvoyant, he was seeing things as they are. The idea being that past, present and future are not linear occurrences, but exist simultaneously. He was witness to the fact. He can't see what his consciousness isn't there to witness. So, he either really saw what he says he saw or he lied. I don't think he could have misinterpreted what he saw.

why is it that desmond had this premonition of claire and aaron getting on the helicopter to freedom together and whether it was a different time or not, his reaction to sun and aaron getting on the freighter was not right. wouldn't he have asked SOMEONE where the heck claire was when they were getting on the helicopter. it would have been just a teensy weensy satisfiying if he had asked kate where claire was and to see some kind of confusion on his face. this "no reaction at all" gives viewers the wonders if he was lying or not.

why is it that desmond had this premonition of claire and aaron getting on the helicopter to freedom together and whether it was a different time or not, his reaction to sun and aaron getting on the freighter was not right. wouldn't he have asked SOMEONE where the heck claire was when they were getting on the helicopter. it would have been just a teensy weensy satisfiying if he had asked kate where claire was and to see some kind of confusion on his face. this "no reaction at all" gives viewers the wonders if he was lying or not.

I completely agree with you there. I think it was terrible of the writers not to include at least a question from Desmond as to Claire's whereabouts. Now, it can be argued that everything happened very fast after the chopper got to the freighter and that Desmond did ask the other survivors about Claire when they were on Penny's boat, but still, it wasn't good story telling of they want us to believe that Des saw what he says he saw.

Okay, so the only thing to correct is getting Claire off the Island, since Aaron already is. Why would it have to course correct for them to both go off together? Isn't the point just they get off the Island?

Like Charlie has to die, it doesn't matter how, right?exactly!

. I always wondered how they'd deal with the O6 returning to the island with a toddler in tow. Getting there might not be a problem, but watching over Aaron after they get back would certainly slow someone up (whoever is charged with taking care of him).
.
I'm thinking that "ALL of you" is necessary for the major dose of course correction that is needed here. I see it as a way of starting from the beginning. Every single heart that was beating at the time of the crash needs to be back on the Island (even though their hearts may no longer be beating a la Locke). IMO dead people and babies are included.
He can't see what his consciousness isn't there to witness. So, he either really saw what he says he saw or he lied. I don't think he could have misinterpreted what he saw. As some of have said, Desmond's flashes need to be tied in to destiny and course correction to understand that there may be a third option.

Desmond saw many versions of Charlie's death including the drowning that was not happening in front of him. The flashes all pointed to Charlie dying. Desmond kept changing those flashes by saving Charlie, but the universe stepped in to course correct leading to yet another method of Charlie's death. Dying was Charlie's destiny and that's what Desmond saw.

Now you have Aaron and Claire geting on the helicopter, a method of being rescued together. Something/someone attempted to change that destiny. That someone/something may change the method of rescue but Claire and Aaron's destiny remains the same. Desmond won't have a vision of the "new method" b/c he's off the Island and no longer not exposed to the EM that was causing the flashes.


why is it that desmond had this premonition of claire and aaron getting on the helicopter to freedom together and whether it was a different time or not, his reaction to sun and aaron getting on the freighter was not right.
We definately could have been given a moment of Desmond's confusion and disbelief but weren't. I think by the time Des. saw Sun get on the heli with Aaron he realized that things had gone FAR astray and that nothing he had ever imagined in a flash or out of one would lead them to the point they're all at now.

Yeah, I tend to think everyone will be needed back, but I still think Too2 made a good point that if Claire and Aaron's destiny was to get off the island, then the method could be different than a helicopter. And now that Aaron is off, we only need to get Claire off so that their destiny is complete.

If/when they bring Aaron back to the island, I do wonder about the logistics of the plot having him around. He definitely became a plot killer for Claire, who was always tied to watching over him. Granted, he's a bit more independent now, but with "terrible things" happening on the island, I can't imagine that he'll be that self sufficient. Someone's got to take care of him and keep him safe while the adults go and fulfill their destiny. Perhaps they'll just take him to the Temple, and leave him with The Others... Imagine that!

Yeah, I tend to think everyone will be needed back, but I still think Too2 made a good point that if Claire and Aaron's destiny was to get off the island, then the method could be different than a helicopter. And now that Aaron is off, we only need to get Claire off so that their destiny is complete...!

That is ONLY if you believe what Ms. Hawkings told Desmond about course correcting. I said it once and I'll say it again. I think Ms. Hawkings lied to Des. I don't trust her or the Monks where Desmond was. I still think Widmore is using Des for his own purpose and has gone to a lot of trouble to create Desmond. Perhaps from Ms. Hawkings preminitions?
You know, Des saw a vision of Charlie getting hit by lightning. MAYBE the lightning would never has struck if Des hadn't put up the rod? MAYBE Charlie wouldn't have drowned? Des was lead to believe Charlie HAD to go on the hike to find Naomi. Yet, Des saw that Charlie living didn't change them from getting rescued... eventually.
Sorry, I'm in the camp that says "Universe Course Correcting" is a shame. IMHO.

Desmond saw many versions of Charlie's death including the drowning that was not happening in front of him. The flashes all pointed to Charlie dying. Desmond kept changing those flashes by saving Charlie, but the universe stepped in to course correct leading to yet another method of Charlie's death. Dying was Charlie's destiny and that's what Desmond saw.
So you think Desmond knew more than Charlie about what was coming? If that's so, explain Charlie's line after knocking Desmond out, "You and I both know, Brother, that only one of us can get on that helicopter."

Robert

So you think Desmond knew more than Charlie about what was coming? If that's so, explain Charlie's line after knocking Desmond out, "You and I both know, Brother, that only one of us can get on that helicopter."
The line was, "You and I both know, you're not supposed to take my place, brother."

The line was, "You and I both know, you're not supposed to take my place, brother."

Because Charlie and Desmond both BELIEVE it has to happen exactly the way his vision predicted or it won't work. It had to be Charlie going with Des to the Looking Glass. Charlie was a musician and knew how to decipher the code. Charlie saved Desmond's life by closing the portal door from Mikhail's grenade.

Still Charlie could have closed the door from the outside. What made him think he had to stay inside the door?

I think the writers intended for us to see it this way:
Desmond saw a true flash. Claire with baby Aaron getting on the chopper.
Someone did something that changed that flash, just as Desmond had been able, several times before, to prevent Charlie's death.
So, one of the events we saw happening between the time Desmond had his flash of Charlie in TLG and the time they got on the helicopter was something that changed the course and delayed the future (Claire and Aaron in the chopper)
Now the Universe is course correcting that event and everything that is happening is designed to get all the players in place for Desmond's flash of Claire and Aaron getting on a chopper to come true. No one is allowed to die, horrible things happened on the island, the dead are haunting the O6, and so on... All of that is happening so that Desmond's original flash can become a reality.
In the past, Desmond got new flashes every time the future picture changed, But Desmond has gone through the island's EM barrier and gotten out. This explains two things:

Desmond has stopped having flashes, therefore, he doesn't get to see the new picture, which is Claire, getting on a chopper with a much older Aaron
The event that changed the course (the original flash that Desmond had) happened AFTER Desmond left the island.

I believe this is the same philosophy running through other plotlines on the show, as well (how they survived the crash, why these particular people got on the plane, etc.)

Agreed, this is the course correcting island theory.

Because Charlie and Desmond both BELIEVE it has to happen exactly the way his vision predicted or it won't work. It had to be Charlie going with Des to the Looking Glass. Charlie was a musician and knew how to decipher the code. Charlie saved Desmond's life by closing the portal door from Mikhail's grenade.

Still Charlie could have closed the door from the outside. What made him think he had to stay inside the door?

Why wouldn't Desmond believe? His first flash was of Locke's speech and that happened exactly as he saw it.

Also, we have to remember that Desmond not only saw Charlie dying in his flashes, he saw other things happening and those things happened. Hurley pulling the cable, the helicopter crashing, a parachutist hanging up a tree.

It's not unreasonable for Desmond, Charlie, and the audience to believe that Desmond was actually seeing flashes of the future, since Desmond did see events happening that came to pass without his interference.

So, to your earlier point that perhaps lightning would have not struck if Desmond didn't build the rod, or that none of the scenarios of Charlie's death would have played out if Desmond had not led Charlie there, I think the story is indicating that Desmond was seeing true future events (or at least the most likely sequence of events at the time he had a flas). Locke's speech being the strongest evidence.

I think the writers intended for us to see it this way:

Desmond saw a true flash. Claire with baby Aaron getting on the chopper.
Someone did something that changed that flash, just as Desmond had been able, several times before, to prevent Charlie's death.
So, one of the events we saw happening between the time Desmond had his flash of Charlie in TLG and the time they got on the helicopter was something that changed the course and delayed the future (Claire and Aaron in the chopper)
Now the Universe is course correcting that event and everything that is happening is designed to get all the players in place for Desmond's flash of Claire and Aaron getting on a chopper to come true. No one is allowed to die, horrible things happened on the island, the dead are haunting the O6, and so on... All of that is happening so that Desmond's original flash can become a reality.
In the past, Desmond got new flashes every time the future picture changed, But Desmond has gone through the island's EM barrier and gotten out. This explains two things:

Desmond has stopped having flashes, therefore, he doesn't get to see the new picture, which is Claire, getting on a chopper with a much older Aaron
The event that changed the course (the original flash that Desmond had) happened AFTER Desmond left the island.

I believe this is the same philosophy running through other plotlines on the show, as well (how they survived the crash, why these particular people got on the plane, etc.)


1) I'm hoping this as well.
2) My money is on Locke
3) Locke, again. Perhaps explain Desmond's confusion and wanting to stay on the freighter. Which also leads me to believe Des in NOT having anymore flashes, because he wouldn't want to stay on the freighter if he knew about the dynamite.
4) Perhaps we are being lead to believe, like Hurley being told by Dave he HAS to die.
5) Are we assuming no more flashes or have we just not seen them?
6) Perhaps finding his constant caused a cancelation of the charged electromagnetic ions in his brain... like an Ionic Bond? So, no more flashes?

Writers could go either way. Cancel Desmond's flashes, (which imho would make sense) or choose not to reveil what Desmond has seen. Either way, we haven't seen Desmond's flash of Charlie's death. We only have Desmond's word for it.

Another twist, if Desmond still could flash it could benefit Penny, since Ben is after her.
Perhaps this is why Widmore believes Ben will never find Penny? Because he knows about Desmond's flashes? Which would mean SOMEONE is working for Widmore. Someone who knows Desmond has flashes. Jin?
100%
Why wouldn't Desmond believe? His first flash was of Locke's speech and that happened exactly as he saw it....

Sorry, I ment believe it has to happen EXACTLY the way he saw it for correct events to happen. Desmond thought Charlie HAD to die in order to find Penny (though it was Naomi) in the jungle. Desmond believes his flashes should be or are unchangeable, until later. Charlie is the one who questions Desmond's flashes. If I recall correctly.

Because Charlie and Desmond both BELIEVE it has to happen exactly the way his vision predicted or it won't work. It had to be Charlie going with Des to the Looking Glass. Charlie was a musician and knew how to decipher the code. Charlie saved Desmond's life by closing the portal door from Mikhail's grenade.

Still Charlie could have closed the door from the outside. What made him think he had to stay inside the door?
Because the room was specially prepared for him to "drown". Its air pressure had to be let out for water to be let in, which required closing that door and opening a vent. Once the demonstration was over, the machinery was reversed, allowing Charlie to open the door and walk out, and eventually to visit Hugo at Santa Rosa.

Robert

Desmond worries that if he changes something Penny wont come. And he's right. He can change things by keeping Charlie alive. Ms. Hawking's point to Desmond is that fate will keep coming because "the guy with the red shoes" is supposed to die. Not that one can't change things. Ms. Hawking wouldn't be needed if it were otherwise. And Desmond shows how things can be course corrected or manipulated or designed. Desmond's flash of Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper is changed by Desmond's course changing of Charlie's death.

The island doesn't want Charlie to turn off that jamming signal...and so Charlie's time is up.
Desmond is the one interefering with "fate" and keeping Charlie alive past his expiration date.
Charlie uses the opportunity of knowing his time is past due to die the heroic death...to make his death a service to his friends...and to choose the circumstance of his death himself.

The thing is that Desmond's consciousness moved through time. He wasn't clairvoyant, he was seeing things as they are. The idea being that past, present and future are not linear occurrences, but exist simultaneously. He was witness to the fact. He can't see what his consciousness isn't there to witness. So, he either really saw what he says he saw or he lied. I don't think he could have misinterpreted what he saw.
I don't see how that could be true. For one thing, he had a flash of Charlie getting (among other things) shot through the neck with an arrow, but that never actually happened, and so he never actually saw it happen.

For another thing, he said to Charlie, "there's a blinking yellow light; a lever switch; you flip the switch; the light goes off; and then you drown." But 1) was no lever switch, only a keypad, which Charlie entered the code into, which Desmond never saw, and 2) Desmond wasn't around to see that the light went off when he did it. He was off getting the SCUBA gear ready.

The time component in the visions is always a big unknown, and Desmond keeps assuming that the things he sees are all going to be sequentially one right after another, like seeing Penny right after the parachutist is hanging in the tree; and like Charlie drowning right after the blinking yellow light goes off. But in reality they were separated by more time, and more additional events than he had assumed.

Desmond worries that if he changes something Penny wont come. And he's right. He can change things by keeping Charlie alive. Ms. Hawking's point to Desmond is that fate will keep coming because "the guy with the red shoes" is supposed to die. Not that one can't change things. Ms. Hawking wouldn't be needed if it were otherwise. And Desmond shows how things can be course corrected or manipulated or designed. Desmond's flash of Claire and Aaron getting on the chopper is changed by Desmond's course changing of Charlie's death.

The island doesn't want Charlie to turn off that jamming signal...and so Charlie's time is up.
Desmond is the one interefering with "fate" and keeping Charlie alive past his expiration date.
Charlie uses the opportunity of knowing his time is past due to die the heroic death...to make his death a service to his friends...and to choose the circumstance of his death himself.

Good points, but Ms. Hawkings character could be there to set us up, so to speak. Lead us down to the wrong conclusions.
If not Charlie turning the jamming signal off, than who? If Des had not kept Charlie alive, who would have turned the jamming signal off? Are you suggesting the jamming signal shouldn't have been turned off? :confused:

maybe with the theory that desmond knew that charlie was going to die and that he couldn't continually prevent it, maybe he lied about the copter with aaron and claire and used charlie to die in this sequence so that he could get to penny. he thought it was penny's boat, right? he had always intervened with his premonitions, but chose not to this time because it was the only way to get to "penny's boat". desmond certainly didn't want to die. and then, watching that scene with charlie....he didn't have to die. he could have left that hatch right then with desmond and the oxygen tanks, but he chose to stay and die a hero by shutting the door.

the more i talk about it, the more i believe it. now i'm mad!

I still get mad about Charlie too. He did die a hero and right now, it does look like he died for nothing. Whether it was all about Claire, I don't know. But I still think Charlie had a lot to offer the show and the entire story. I'd much rather see Charlies story than some of the other "stories" offered since his death.

I still get mad about Charlie too. He did die a hero and right now, it does look like he died for nothing. Whether it was all about Claire, I don't know. But I still think Charlie had a lot to offer the show and the entire story. I'd much rather see Charlies story than some of the other "stories" offered since his death.

Charlie is a great character. I don't think Charlie has sung his last one, yet. ;) JUST A THEORY! I have to say this so I don't get in trouble with the Mods, whom are wonderful and helpful and beautiful and... enough brown noising, I know. :redface: But I really enjoy the FUSE and it is because we have such good MODS. :biggrin:

Charlie is a great character. I don't think Charlie has sung his last one, yet. ;) JUST A THEORY! I have to say this so I don't get in trouble with the Mods, whom are wonderful and helpful and beautiful and... enough brown noising, I know. :redface: But I really enjoy the FUSE and it is because we have such good MODS. :biggrin:

Please elaborate on what you think Charlie has yet to do and how you think he might accomplish that. I would really like to hear it and would LOVE it if Charlie did come back, somehow? Hell, everyone else comes back from the dead around there, why not good ol' Charlie??:biggrin:

Please elaborate on what you think Charlie has yet to do and how you think he might accomplish that. I would really like to hear it and would LOVE it if Charlie did come back, somehow? Hell, everyone else comes back from the dead around there, why not good ol' Charlie??:biggrin:

LOL! That would be for another thread! You can PM me if you like and we can discuss there, too.

It would be a great start to Season 5 if they open with Desmond's premonition! Because it would shock so many and surprise us faithful fans. Oh, it is like being pregnant, the closer to the due date the worse it is to wait!

"The island" did not want Charlie or anyone else for that matter to unjam the signal because the Freighties wanted to find the island, and they meant harm to "the island."

Perhaps the island was trying to off Charlie.

"The island" did not want Charlie or anyone else for that matter to unjam the signal because the Freighties wanted to find the island, and they meant harm to "the island."

Perhaps the island was trying to off Charlie.

My thoughts, too. Except not the "Island" as much as Ben. What if Ms. Hawkings knew about Desmond's gift and was trying to convince/persuade Desmond to believe there was nothing he could do. Trying to get Desmond to just let Charlie die so he couldn't unjam the station? I think Ms. Hawkings knew Charlie had to die in order to keep the Losties on the Island with no chance of escape, IMHO... just a theory. :biggrin:

"The island" did not want Charlie or anyone else for that matter to unjam the signal because the Freighties wanted to find the island, and they meant harm to "the island."

Perhaps the island was trying to off Charlie.
perhaps, but charlie didn't have to die as we saw. he talked to penny, desmond began to run toward the room hearing penny's name and charlie SLAMMED the door shut. charlie could have ran out of the room, telling desmond of the bomb, put on the oxygen tanks and swam to safety. that is the issue. charlie did not have to die. he chose to to become a hero in claire's eyes.
100%
plus the freighter had the same kind of problem. they could not move the freighter because something transmission wise was blocking it as well.

Charlie's goose was cooked from day one, even before day one while they were still in the air, but thankfully he had people like Jack and Desmond their to save his butt so that he could die a hero and not just a junkie or, after The Moth, an ex-junkie. Yes it appears that he died in vain, because the freighties were obviously there for evil (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Apollyon) but atleast he went out on his terms, we should all be so lucky.

Well, see? The only evil ones on that freighter were Keamy and his guys. Captain AussieMcHottie was a good guy, Daniel and Lapidus were good guys. Minkowsky was a good guy too. Michael was there to help the Losties. The jury is still out on Charlotte and Miles, I think.

But, in any case, it seems that the Freighteis were not that bad of a bunch, right?

caforrest: First of all, I don't think Charlie ever had a goose on LOST. Regardless, even the most down-and-out person can get a second chance. I was a dweeb once.. wait, still am... but that's not the point. Everyone needs a friend to pull them up once in a while. I would so love it if Desmond wanted to help me out or Jack... I'm SO AVAILABLE!
Now in defense of the freighties, we don't know their backstory, yet. What if Ben killed Keamy's parents? What if Widmore was the only father Keamy ever knew? Come on you don't have all the facts, yet.
Just a side note, is it ever lucky to die? Suppose that depends on where you're headed, yes?
100%
Well, see? The only evil ones on that freighter were Keamy and his guys. Captain AussieMcHottie was a good guy, ...

Oooh! Aussie McHottie. LOL! I like that! ;)

"The island" did not want Charlie or anyone else for that matter to unjam the signal because the Freighties wanted to find the island, and they meant harm to "the island."
That's crazy. Someone could home in on the jamming signal as well as or better than the signal it was jamming.

That's crazy. Someone could home in on the jamming signal as well as or better than the signal it was jamming.

Oh! Do you know HOW this is possible? I've been looking on the internet. I know all signals send off waves, so how do you know/find which wave is the right wave? I want to hide my house from satelites, for instance. Can this be done? :confused:

Oh! Do you know HOW this is possible? I've been looking on the internet. I know all signals send off waves, so how do you know/find which wave is the right wave? I want to hide my house from satelites, for instance. Can this be done? :confused:
When someone puts out a jamming signal, it pretty obviously says this is someone trying to drown out someone else. If both signals are coming from the same place, then direction finding the jamming signal gets you to the same place.

Robert

When someone puts out a jamming signal, it pretty obviously says this is someone trying to drown out someone else. If both signals are coming from the same place, then direction finding the jamming signal gets you to the same place.

Robert

Okay, great how do you actually find the signal? What instrument? Just curious, if you're not sure, that's okay, too. :)

1) .
5) Are we assuming no more flashes or have we just not seen them?
6) Perhaps finding his constant caused a cancelation of the charged electromagnetic ions in his brain... like an Ionic Bond? So, no more flashes?

Writers could go either way. Cancel Desmond's flashes, (which imho would make sense) or choose not to reveil what Desmond has seen. Either way, we haven't seen Desmond's flash of Charlie's death. We only have Desmond's word for it.
.

Desmond's first round of conscience TT and subsequent flashes were the result of the EM emmittted from the hatch implosion. Desmond's second round of TT was a result of leaving the Island's EM barrier. A constant was needed to unstick Desmond from the past.

IMO the elecromagnetic properties of the Island are unique to the Island only. As long as Des is off the Island we probably won't have anymore of his flashes.

As to the Charlie flash, we do have Desmond's word for it and a bit of evidence to back him up. We know Desmond did have flashes. We know Charlie's death was a major theme in those flashes. We know Des saw TLG in his flashes as evidenced by his knowledge of the switch and yellow light. Innocent until otherwise proven guilty.

"The island" did not want Charlie or anyone else for that matter to unjam the signal because the Freighties wanted to find the island, and they meant harm to "the island."
.

While many on the freighter were "good guys", Keamy and company were not. The general mission of the freighter was to capture Ben and kill off everyone else after. Summoning the freighter would then appear to have been a bad thing.

Still, many variables could have come into play. Just for example, maybe only the original "four" were supposed to make it to the Island and the rest of the crew not.

It's too hard to tell what was "supposed" to be at this point.

Our first questionable really is "Was 815 supposed to crash on the Island?" We have been lead to believe the answer is yes. However for four months none of the Losties appeared to have benefitted from being on the Island (except Rose and Locke) and the Island does not appear to have benefitted from having them.:confused:

Which events are Destiny vs. Interference vs. Course Correction have yet to be seen.

IMO the elecromagnetic properties of the Island are unique to the Island only. As long as Des is off the Island we probably won't have anymore of his flashes.

...However for four months none of the Losties appeared to have benefitted from being on the Island (except Rose and Locke) and the Island does not appear to have benefitted from having them.:confused:

Which events Destiny vs. Interference vs. Course Correction have yet to be seen.

I think the electromagnetic properites are unique on the Island, but that there are different points on earth with electromagnetic properties which may spark Desmond's gifting. Remember when Rose's husband took her to some guy in Australia?

Unfortunately, hardships do tend to benefit people. I think Sawyer has grown, Boone, Shannon, Jin and Sun... I've seen so good come out of the bad situation.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around these as well! :biggrin:

Yeah, I tend to think everyone will be needed back, but I still think Too2 made a good point that if Claire and Aaron's destiny was to get off the island, then the method could be different than a helicopter. And now that Aaron is off, we only need to get Claire off so that their destiny is complete.

If/when they bring Aaron back to the island, I do wonder about the logistics of the plot having him around. He definitely became a plot killer for Claire, who was always tied to watching over him. Granted, he's a bit more independent now, but with "terrible things" happening on the island, I can't imagine that he'll be that self sufficient. Someone's got to take care of him and keep him safe while the adults go and fulfill their destiny. Perhaps they'll just take him to the Temple, and leave him with The Others... Imagine that!

I sort of imagine Aaron as an heir apparent. Much in the way that Locke was found by Richard as a baby so that his destiny is tied to being an eventual leader of the hostiles/others.

Okay, great how do you actually find the signal? What instrument? Just curious, if you're not sure, that's okay, too. :)
One way was explained in season 1.

Another way is to use a directional antenna -- it's more sensitive to null the signal, finding the direction by putting the antenna's null (the direction in which it theoretically won't receive any signal, but in practice just receives the least amount) in the direction of the signal. It can be done with very simple instrumentation; I've gotten close to locating a pirate FM station with just a pocket portable receiver, its whip (monopole) antenna, and my hearing.

Robert

Well, see? The only evil ones on that freighter were Keamy and his guys. Captain AussieMcHottie was a good guy, Daniel and Lapidus were good guys. Minkowsky was a good guy too. Michael was there to help the Losties. The jury is still out on Charlotte and Miles, I think.

But, in any case, it seems that the Freighteis were not that bad of a bunch, right?

Keamy was a nice guy too. Remember how nice he was when Desmond was disoriented? I think he just got "the sickness" and went insane, like Gault suggested.

I sort of imagine Aaron as an heir apparent. Much in the way that Locke was found by Richard as a baby so that his destiny is tied to being an eventual leader of the hostiles/others.

What about possibly genetic enhanced?

Keamy was a nice guy too. Remember how nice he was when Desmond was disoriented? I think he just got "the sickness" and went insane, like Gault suggested.

I think Gault called it "Cabin Fever" - Do you think that was a nod to "The Shining"? - Cabin Fever was discussed at length in that book - The writers do love Stephen King.

Keamy was a nice guy too. Remember how nice he was when Desmond was disoriented? I think he just got "the sickness" and went insane, like Gault suggested.

No one on the freighter (good or bad) ever disputed that their mission was to capture Ben and then kill everyone else on the Island. I agree that Keamy went a bit batty before the killing spree (which he was well equiped for), but would the absense of "cabin fever" have changed the mission or outcome? Maybe. There did seem to be forces working against the freighter- the engines, mysterious banging, low food supplies, no outside communication, etc. It just seems strange that "cabin fever" would work against a better outcome instead of toward one.

Desmond and Charlie assumed that unjamming the signal was a good and heroic thing. All they really knew was....switch, light, Charlie's dead, Claire gets on a helicopter with Aaron.

Could the true signifigant, heroic part of Charlie's death have been to warn the Losties that the freighter was "Not Penny's boat?"

Had Jack known about Charlie's warning would he have still made the call to the freighter?

It seems that Charlie and Desmond (and Locke) were on the right track, but ultimately Jack's call interferred with what was "supposed" to happen.

Anyone going to Comicon who can ask the writers about this?

I am now officially sold on the idea that Desmond was lieing to Charlie about his vision. What Des saw was himself getting on the chopper and quite possibly his reunion with Penny, and here's my proof, Boones says in Lockes vision hut dream that Desmond was helping himself, and what does Desmond want more than anything, he wants Penny, we know Desmond has had issues with cowardice before maybe this is one of those moments, but he has a change of heart on his way out to TLG and wants to go in Charlie's place, only Charlie knocks him out, now obviously nothing changed from his vision, Charlie still dies and Desmond still get's on the chopper, his swimming down there was part of the vision just not part that he saw.