Overlooked & Revealing Deleted Scene: Two Bens in One Time-line

[Dr. Suds]

Originally Posted by NBC001

Jack had an implant? That's the first I've heard of him having one. When did that happen? What episode? I didn't miss any episodes how could I have missed such an important piece of information? Let me know what episode it was so I can watch it again.

A lot of things have to be inferred. A number of us are suspicious about Jack's supposed appendectomy, so we wonder what the real reason was for either actual or fake surgery. Removal of an implant would be one possibility, but I think it was to match his double (similarly with Locke's supposed kidney donation). You haven't been shown Jack's double any more than you've been shown an implant, but figuring things like this is how you have to solve hard puzzles. In other words, the ostensible operation is evidence for implants and/or doubles.

Robert

[too2strange]

Originally Posted by Bicklefitch

...I'm with you on the light/dark, pieces in a game analogy. And for loop aficionados (myself included), there is definitely a symmetry between Jack's 'falling from the sky' on flight 815 and his arrival in 1977 via flight 316. What's not so clear to me is whether his decision not to save Ben the second time around indicates that his piece had switched sides on the chess board. In any case, I'm thinking that he may still have been a pawn at that point, and that his opportunity to exercise his free will and give the chess master(s) the finger will come during season six....

You know I like it when you talk chess!

[UnderAlienControl]

Originally Posted by NBC001

Jack had an implant? That's the first I've heard of him having one. When did that happen? What episode? I didn't miss any episodes how could I have missed such an important piece of information? Let me know what episode it was so I can watch it again.

"New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common."-John Locke (1632-1704)

Sorry, but I'm really not debating, I'm speculating. In other words, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...Also, I did throw in that it could have been the "unseen" that made Jack sick, much as the "unseen" gave Ben his tumor. But, the Others had Jack also and could have done whatever they wanted to him. It's not like Claire even noticed that she had an implant. I'm in a rush now, but I want to talk to you Bickle and T2S, and you too Sudsy, so I'll be back later...

But, before I go, Bickle and T2S-since we're making chess analogies, remenber that when a pawn actually survives and makes it all the way across the board he gets to free a a usually more powerful piece and put it back into play. Well, we have our pawns who have made it and now it seems they've freed a more powerful piece and put it back into play. Maybe we should call The Walkin' Dude "The Bishop" instead...(<>..<>)

[too2strange]

(Giggle) UAC: See my signature. We've been talking chess for a while.

I think you are right. A Pawn has been played to the end and become more powerful. Now, which one?

[UnderAlienControl]

Originally Posted by too2strange

(Giggle) UAC: See my signature. We've been talking chess for a while.

I think you are right. A Pawn has been played to the end and become more powerful. Now, which one?

Oh man, I remember that thread now...and I remember also thinking that "I ain't goin' near that one with a 10 foot pole" The whole VS thing is all so murky that I haven't tried to figure it out yet. so alot of times I don't like to think about it. It's one of the reasons I kinda sequestered for awhile. I had to refigure alot of things, the primary one being: Take everything I ever mentioned about Jacob, the cabin etc and draw a line through Jacob and pencil in The Walkin' Dude instead.

That's all fine, because the whole thing I was investigating and trying to prove was that the person in the cabin was a Timemaster. So if it's not Jacob it's still cool because the events had still occurred. And I had pretty much figured out the Entropy thing. BTW, think about this one now, and the coffee cup example: "Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs..." Boonespeak, but kinda creepy now when I think about Timemasters and the entropy thing...

But you know, you watch the finale and find out that "Jacob" isn't the one in the cabin, well fine but WTF, it's still all gotta be revaluated again! They just gave me a Spy VS Spy White VS Black Good VS Evil on some kinda 3 level Star Trek chessboard Martini. Served up shaken in mythology and stirred with psuedo-science. In an Egyptian reincarnation glass decorated with heiroglyphics with a big fat Time olive skewered with a Pet Semetary toothpick.. Yep, that's about what I drank during the finale... Not the kool-aid no, the martini. Cheers.

So I figured I'd let you all play the chess game while I chew over how the Timemaster's were working their mojo, and I'd just ask ya later how your Chess match had ended... (<>..<>)

[too2strange]

Originally Posted by UnderAlienControl

...]So I figured I'd let you all play the chess game while I chew over how the Timemaster's were working their mojo, and I'd just ask ya later how your Chess match had ended...[/font] (<>..<>)

I think you'll be asking Hurley. I think the game of Chess is a metaphor for what is going on. I don't believe it is an actual game being played, per se, but as part of a bigger dynamic. Time is the Essence.

[NBC001]

The Bagua while Ben is turning the FDW.

The Bagua after Ben arrives in the Sahara.
Another one
Two images of Halliwax's jacket but the jacket is turned differently in the bottom picture.

The two Baguas are not mirror images of each other either. The orchid in the center is facing the same way and the gua on the baguas are different not just mirror images.

Originally Posted by too2strange

I'm guessing UAC had it right. That there was a flag by the name and Widmore was to be called immediately. Which would explain one of Widmore's men in Tunias... looking for Ben, knowing Ben was going to look for Sayid. So, the man followed Sayid in hopes of getting to Ben. Only, before Sayid found out the truth, Ben convinced Sayid to kill the spy.

This could be right but it seems more likely that the men that met Ben in the Sahara worked for Widmore and were patrolling the area. The one that Ben used the baton on, was not killed, reported back to Widmore or when two men didn't return more Widmore employees went looking for them and they found the jacket and reported back to Widmore. That is the reason Widmore had cameras set up for Locke's arrival because they would know before hand who they were dealing with.

BAKIR: Who are you and why are you following me?
BEN: My name is Benjamin Linus.
[Recognition crosses Bakir's face and his gun lowers slightly.]

Bakir only knew the name "Benjamin Linus" but not the face. If Bakir was sent to Tunisia to look for Ben by Widmore I'm sure Widmore would have given him a photo of Ben, he's not stupid and he had one to give to the freighter crew so I think he most likely had another copy of it.

Originally Posted by too2strange

Perhaps, but this could all be a makeup mess up and they just forgot? Since I feel the time through the wormhole happened within minutes, not months, that the bruises should still be there.

HOWEVER, Ben came through extreme cold temperatures. Perhaps we can explain it by saying the cold temperatures diminished the bruises on the face, but not under the skin?
OR the mirror image of Ben would not retain a bruise, but should a laceration?

Probably, just makeup.

Doesn't change the fact there are two Bens.

I am not disagreeing on the fact that there were two Ben's as UAC seems to be saying. If you look at my posts in this thread I am saying that there were two Ben's but I don't think the Ben we saw turning the FDW is the same Ben we saw waking up in the desert. It's not only the bruises it's also the Darka.

Originally Posted by too2strange

This is actually a cool idea, if you think about it. The Island made all the Losties better, I've always wondered why Jack got sick... JUST AS THEY WERE TRYING TO LEAVE. Could have been the Island's way of keeping them there, but they really didn't need Jack to get off the Island. An implant, like Claire had, would make more sense. They did have Jack at the hydra station long enough to do this. Juliet probably put it in him, so didn't want to tell him about it. She had to take his appendices as well, to cover up what she really did. Only Bernard knows for sure, right? Wasn't he the one helping? And Bernard would keep the secret, he would understand. Or Juliet "finished up" without him in the tent? Remember how upset Juliet was for having Kate help?

Originally Posted by Dr. Suds

A lot of things have to be inferred. A number of us are suspicious about Jack's supposed appendectomy, so we wonder what the real reason was for either actual or fake surgery. Removal of an implant would be one possibility, but I think it was to match his double (similarly with Locke's supposed kidney donation). You haven't been shown Jack's double any more than you've been shown an implant, but figuring things like this is how you have to solve hard puzzles. In other words, the ostensible operation is evidence for implants and/or doubles.

Robert

So then that must mean we should assume besides Claire & Sawyer that Kate, Hurley, Jack, maybe Walt, Michael and anybody else kidnapped by the Others all had implants put into them? I don't know that's pretty much to assume.

Originally Posted by Bicklefitch

Yup, and the other thing to remember is that he may have skipped right over that 10 month interval as if it had never happened.

I agree that Ben just skipped over those ten months.

BEN: I'd love to fill you in on everything you missed, Jack but you, Hugo, James, you need to get moving. If I were you, I'd want to be on that boat within the hour. Good-bye, Jack. (to Locke) Let's go.

It seems as if Ben turned the FDW and left the Island maybe 15 minutes but no more than 30 minutes after receiving the bruises.

LOCKE: You want me to ask him how he got here?
BEN: Be my guest.
[Locke pulls of the gag and Cooper bites his hand violently]
---------------------
[Two days ago. Locke sits on a hill overlooking the tents. He unwraps his bandage to reveal that his bite has completely healed after six days. Richard appears]

It took the Island six days to heal a bite. I would think it takes the Island a little longer than 15 to 30 minutes to heal those bruises.

[UnderAlienControl]

Originally Posted by too2strange

I think you'll be asking Hurley. I think the game of Chess is a metaphor for what is going on. I don't believe it is an actual game being played, per se, but as part of a bigger dynamic. Time is the Essence.

Yah, I'm just speaking figuratively instead of literally. What I'm really sayin' is I'll let you all figure out the chess game/pieces via your thread and then would ask later if your thread had made any deductions. Hence, letting you all play the Chess Game (thread) while i was working out the time voodoo...(<>..<>)

---

Originally Posted by NBC001

This could be right but it seems more likely that the men that met Ben in the Sahara worked for Widmore and were patrolling the area. The one that Ben used the baton on, was not killed, reported back to Widmore or when two men didn't return more Widmore employees went looking for them and they found the jacket and reported back to Widmore. That is the reason Widmore had cameras set up for Locke's arrival because they would know before hand who they were dealing with.

First, let me point out that I've been doing this off of memory and not re-watching anything so if I do misspeak on something feel free to step in and correct...I've pretty much got a pornographic memory and it serves me well most of the time, but nobody's perfect...Not ruling out it could be a patrol, as Widmore was indeed waging war, but either way bedouins or Mercs, they got JACKED! (Ben: "I'm superbad fool"). I think that's all incidental. What is it in and of itself? What is it's true nature? The clerk looks at the log and then eyes ben like he's on fire. maybe because Dean Moriarity hadn't been to Tunisia ("No, but it's been awhile") since like 1955 OR SOMETHING! Maybe this is what freaked the clerk out (awhile indeed!).

If, that is, it's not the Widmore thing. He would want to know if Ben fled the island, as he set out for this with his war. I doubt he was totally depending on Naomi and Keamy to be successful operating in an uncertain and unstable environment with noobs on their team to snatch Ben. A smart rat has more than just one hole. I'm thinking that plan b was to bring pressure until he ran at least (torch the island). Plus, pressure from other fronts as well. No camera though. I don't think Widmore knew where the rabbit hole came out. I'm thinking now that he used the evidence left behind to nail down where to place the camera to watch the rabbit hole. I don't think he knew wgere to put the camera until after Ben came through and showed him the opening. Possible, anyway.

Bakir only knew the name "Benjamin Linus" but not the face. If Bakir was sent to Tunisia to look for Ben by Widmore I'm sure Widmore would have given him a photo of Ben, he's not stupid and he had one to give to the freighter crew so I think he most likely had another copy of it.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're implying with the Bakir thing, But I thought they met up in Tikrit. Bakir drops his gun because he knows who Ben Linus is and knows that he's probably just gonna get a message to give to Widmore so i don't think he's scared of Ben. Kinda got blindsided though...instant kharma...ain't it a beech...

I am not disagreeing on the fact that there were two Ben's as UAC seems to be saying. If you look at my posts in this thread I am saying that there were two Ben's but I don't think the Ben we saw turning the FDW is the same Ben we saw waking up in the desert. It's not only the bruises it's also the Darka.

The bruising doesn't concern me. The regen factor has already started on-island and then dude jumped down a rabbit hole so maybe that was enought to heal the bruising. The point is, 2 Bens no bruises. Must be something about the process, and it might be just what you said. That they were so recent the unreliability of time as a constant coulda back-ticked slightly to before he was even bruised. I mean, I feel ya on the bruises and the dharka, but the Dharka might be a true production error as these scenes were probably filmed in 2 different locations/times and sometimes the original article can't be located. Do they both say Hallowax. maybe they are suggesting to us that things may not reassemble exactly on the other end of the rabbit hole? That there are slight but noticable differences that get scrambled a bit on the trip? Hmmmm...

So then that must mean we should assume besides Claire & Sawyer that Kate, Hurley, Jack, maybe Walt, Michael and anybody else kidnapped by the Others all had implants put into them? I don't know that's pretty much to assume.

You should assume nothing...that just makes an A55 out of U and ME (sorry, couldn't resist <---he made me do it). but it's true. I'm not assuming any of that. I'm just wondering if they put an implant in Jack also when they had him. Or, like I said, then it was the great "unseen", cause ya can't get appendicitis on an island where you don't get sick unless somebody want's you sick.

I agree that Ben just skipped over those ten months.

Seconded. The motion is passed <bang bang>

]It seems as if Ben turned the FDW and left the Island maybe 15 minutes but no more than 30 minutes after receiving the bruises.

And time is screwy with time dilations of all shapes and sizes around the place so it's probably a time thing. Could be the scramble effect I mentioned earlier. And you also can't think the arrow of time is in any way linear in the show. As Ms. Hawking's ouroborus boldly told us, time isn't really cyclical but that it has branches, or that it can be branched...

It took the Island six days to heal a bite. I would think it takes the Island a little longer than 15 to 30 minutes to heal those bruises.

This is even more telling. Patchy tells them plain as day that Naomi will be healed in a day and a half from a truamatic penetrating thoracic wound. A tree went through her lung dude. A day, day and a half I think Patchy says. How do you reconcile that?

Well, I think it means that in Locke's case, the island doesn't heal him as well. I think the Walkin' Dude working within Locke (Flocke-Flagg/Locke) takes care of his healing. So it took that long for his hand to heal, but Naomi will be ok in 36 hours. That's about real-time healing actually, maybe slightly speeded, but close to real-time for Locke.

So this might be showing us that it doesn't work on Locke like everybody else. Probably because he's a) possessed by or even the Walkin' Dude in corporeal form, hence Flocke, or b) the Walkin' Dude or some other "unseen" is taking care of Locke and helping him to heal, making it where he doesn't need the island for that. Cause he ain't gonna die there no matter what happens, In Accordance With The Prophecy Of Course...ya can't snuff the Rooster, bro...

Cause here's the thing: Locke wasn't suddenly cured of paralysis because he crashed on an airplane into an island. Like, crashed into it hard man. Locke was suddenly cured because he got to the end of that first chessboard and became a more powerful piece in the game, I guess you could say. . Just remember that wriggle of the toes and the smile on his face. It kinda makes me think that Flocke is thinking "it worked, I'm here". Maybe it's just me, but I swear he seemed to have that flicker of recognition in those first moments on the beach.

And remember, the "island" didn't take his legs away either-his sugar daddy did. After all, even Richard and co. thought this was special, miraculous even. Really, it was a sign. maybe a sign that The Walkin' Dude's plan was indeed in effect and if Richard is a true? Jacobian then he kinda needs to get busy as he should know that kiddie Locke had a proclivity for knives. And, is already drawing The Smokester and island stuff when he's a kid. Pictures of a place he hasn't been to yet, but probably has and has the imprint of The Walkin' Dude on him or in him via the Walkin' Dude's Time Master abilities. So he could loop back around to the island in at least somewhat of a corporeal form to set the endgame up.

I think with Locke, it's not an island healing trick, it's a time trick (reversing entropy again?) perpetrated by The Walkin' dude via possession or influence over "Flocke", or, I guess, any entity which has the ability to master time and so far i've only seen Two I think...and maybe a coupla disciples who know how to figure out some things ahead of time but aren't true Timemasters...(<>..<>)

[UnderAlienControl]

What a delicious irony...my computer hiccupped when I submitted my post and all of a sudden there were two Post #168's in the room. Don't let them touch!...and please delete this duplicate when you get a chance Moderator-thanks

[bigmouth]

After some thought, I've concluded that Ben deliberately left his double to die of exposure. He lands in the desert and is attacked. He kills his attackers and hides their bodies and one of the horses. Then he rides back to the landing site in time to see another version of himself -- perhaps from some slightly different iteration of events -- land in the desert as well. So he grabs the passports and cash stashed in the wall and essentially leaves himself behind to fool Widmore's people. That's why the cameras are later installed.

Under this interpretation, Ben's twin isn't so much a hint about the Donkey Wheel's effects as a comment on Ben's ruthless character. The scene was cut because TPTB feared it would mislead those of us familiar with the Orchid Orientation Outtake. What is Ben Linas? The kind of guy who would leave himself behind to die.