Hi, I've put out this theory in a few threads and thought I would create a separate thread for it. I think that our LOST characters who are in the Dharma Initiative have been brainwashed.
While we can tell that they still are acting obviously like themselves and remember who they truly are, I believe they have been brainwashed to be unquestionably loyal to the Dharma Initiative. My reason is that I think they would object to some of the things that DI stands for--the other option is that they are only conning the DI to make them think they are loyal to them, but they seem too genuinely happy and comfortable with the situation for me, so I'm going to go with brainwashing. Again, I do not believe that they are different people--James still knows he is Sawyer and acts like the best version of him, Juliet is Juliet, Jin is Jin...but they have been programmed to have their primary objective be to protect and love the DI.
Point One -- The Dharma Initiative is Bad:
The Dharma Iniative as it stands is a cult. We have seen its creepy truce with Richard and everyone, and the use of the sonic fence. In other flashbacks we have seen how it looks like this happy Utopia and yet people are carting around guns. We have other things that make us uneasy...Olivia Goodspeed's disappearance that may or may not mean something, the strange behavior of Horace and the way the security officers don't want Rosie to see it, and Ben's flashbacks. In my opinion, the DI is a sinister force that is attempting to use properties of the island for their own gain. There may be good individuals within the Dharma Initiative--perhaps most of them--but like any cult, there is corruption in the ranks.
Point Two -- Clues About Brainwashing:
There are a lot of flowers and milk in this episode, both associated with people falling asleep or being drugged. We saw Karl being brainwashed in Room 23, which indicates the DI developed brainwashing technology. I almost didn't put these in here, because I don't want off-topic shipping in this thread, but it takes Juliet only two weeks to give up everything off island for the island...while we mustn't dismiss Sawyer's amazing powers of persuasion, Juliet is just as determined about persuading people to do things her way if she wants--there is the option that brainwashing helped her and the others make up their minds that the island was the way to go. James also completely forgets Kate's face, and while I agree that he has moved on with Juliet, that could be more than just a shipping comment--one wonders if he remembered the faces of Jack, Hurley, Sayid, or Sun for example...or anyone that would make him question his loyalty to the Dharma Initiative.
Point Three -- Rescuing Needed?
If they are being brainwashed, that means that they might need rescuing...and also that Kate, Jack, and Hurley might be in danger of being indoctrinated as well.
I think you've made a good case here, but I'm not so sure I agree at this point. I'll try to explain why.
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Originally Posted by Devera
Point One -- The Dharma Initiative is Bad:
The Dharma Initiative as it stands is a cult. We have seen its creepy truce with Richard and everyone, and the use of the sonic fence. In other flashbacks we have seen how it looks like this happy Utopia and yet people are carting around guns. We have other things that make us uneasy...Olivia Goodspeed's disappearance that may or may not mean something, the strange behavior of Horace and the way the security officers don't want Rosie to see it, and Ben's flashbacks. In my opinion, the DI is a sinister force that is attempting to use properties of the island for their own gain. There may be good individuals within the Dharma Initiative--perhaps most of them--but like any cult, there is corruption in the ranks.
The members of the DI who are on the Island are havin' problems with Richard and the "Hostiles". Due to those problems it seems logical, to me, to try to find some truce between the two groups and, also, to be prepared to defend themselves if the truce ever fails, so they have guns. A gun, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. It's the intent of the wielder of the gun that's bad or good. I'm not sure about Olivia's disappearance. That could be bad, but I don't think there's necessarily enough evidence to say so yet. As for them not wantin' Rosie to see Horace in all his drunken glory, well that - in my mind - is sensible. It'll probably get out anyway that he's had a bad night of drinkin' because they're in such a close-knit society, but that kind of scuttlebutt could cause unnecessary issues within the DI. Best to let him sleep it off and talk about it later, in my opinion.
My memory regardin' Ben's flashbacks is a little fuzzy, so I'll take your word for it that they're somewhat sinister. I don't have the DVDs or I'd rewatch that epi again.
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Point Two -- Clues About Brainwashing:
There are a lot of flowers and milk in this episode, both associated with people falling asleep or being drugged. We saw Karl being brainwashed in Room 23, which indicates the DI developed brainwashing technology. I almost didn't put these in here, because I don't want off-topic shipping in this thread, but it takes Juliet only two weeks to give up everything off island for the island...while we mustn't dismiss Sawyer's amazing powers of persuasion, Juliet is just as determined about persuading people to do things her way if she wants--there is the option that brainwashing helped her and the others make up their minds that the island was the way to go. James also completely forgets Kate's face, and while I agree that he has moved on with Juliet, that could be more than just a shipping comment--one wonders if he remembered the faces of Jack, Hurley, Sayid, or Sun for example...or anyone that would make him question his loyalty to the Dharma Initiative.
I agree that the brainwashin' looks bad. However, I found this quote from Damon Lindelof that you might want to check out. It's from the Season 3 DVD commentary
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Lost: The Complete Third Season (DVD) Commentary: "Damon Lindelof: The Dharma Initiative was doing all these experiments on animals, so is that room that Karl was in for humans, or what kind of animals were they showing those films to? Like, what was really going on there?"
The above is a very good question, I think. I've always felt, due to the Jacob reference in the video, that the Others/Natives/Hostiles ended up usin' the room for their own purposes when they took over.
As for Juliet stayin', that could be brainwashin', but it could also be that she stayed for other reasons and we'll, hopefully, get a flashback about it. And Sawyer hardly remembered Kate's face, I think, because it had been 3 years since he'd seen her and he'd started to move on with Juliet. I can totally buy that. I've been in love before, and it's been years. I can hardly remember the face of the woman, though I do remember the feelin's. And you have to take into account, I think, that Sawyer and the others (his group, not the Others *L*) were still lookin' for Jack and the 06's return. When they did return, Sawyer ran to meet them. Both of those instances seem, to me, to be evidence that they weren't brainwashed.
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Point Three -- Rescuing Needed?
If they are being brainwashed, that means that they might need rescuing...and also that Kate, Jack, and Hurley might be in danger of being indoctrinated as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if everyone from both groups eventually needs to work together to get out of Old Otherton. I think that the return of the 06 will be the catalyst for their sudden departure...maybe *L*.
Last edited by JohnnyREB1977; 03-08-2009 at 03:33 PM.
ehhhh...i'm not so sure i agree. at least not completely. a couple questions...
when karl was brainwashed was it at the hands of the DI or at the hands of the Others after the purge when they had taken over the DI facilities? i believe it was Ben and the Others who brainwashed karl and there's no evidence that it was the DI who instituted the use of this technique.
second question, would the DI be carrying around all those guns and building sonic fences if it wasn't for the others and for smokie? our losties became quite the gun carriers too, but it was only out of necessity, only because they needed to protect themselves.
Room 23 was definitely in the hands of Ben's crowd when Karl was being brainwashed, but it was a pre-existing structure built during the Dharma Initiative times like the rest of the stations, so it is a Dharma Initiative construct. It is possible, however, ss JohnnyREB1977 points out, that they were originally brainwashing say, chimps, not people.
You're also both right that we have previously seen our LOST crowd cart around guns and protect themselves from dangerous forces. I guess it is the juxtaposition that creeps me out of the happy, hippy, good times town with these guns, alarms, fences, et cetera. Does it seem right to you that people are raising their children in this environment when they can, presumably, voluntarily leave the island?
I agree that everything we have been shown so far has another explanation, but I still have a gut feeling that they are really creepy and we are being presented this Utopia and accepting it at face value lock, stock, and barrel when people within it are being manipulated or used.
Remember, what happened right after James said, "And going forward, we should all do a better job of trustin'--"...that's right, they were all knocked out by the sonic fence. Maybe we want to believe too desperately in a happy life for our characters that we are also being set up to believe in the DI as the good guys.
Last edited by Devera; 03-08-2009 at 03:39 PM.
Reason: clarification
You're also both right that we have previously seen our LOST crowd cart around guns and protect themselves from dangerous forces. I guess it is the juxtaposition that creeps me out of the happy, hippy, good times town with these guns, alarms, fences, et cetera. Does it seem right to you that people are raising their children in this environment when they can, presumably, voluntarily leave the island?
Personally, I wouldn't raise my kids on an Island like that, regardless of sonic fences, guns, etc., if I had a choice to leave. But, that's just me. If these parents do have that choice and decide to stay there, then that's up to them. If, however, they don't have a choice, then that is wrong, in my opinion. No one should be forced to put their lives, and especially not their children's lives, in danger.
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I agree that everything we have been shown so far has another explanation, but I still have a gut feeling that they are really creepy and we are being presented this Utopia and accepting it at face value lock, stock, and barrel when people within it are being manipulated or used.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were right, Dev. Since the appearance of Old Otherton in Season 3 (or was it 4?) I've seen a few people talkin' about how it seems similar to the Village in the television show The Prisoner.
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Remember, what happened right after James said, "And going forward, we should all do a better job of trustin'--"...that's right, they were all knocked out by the sonic fence. Maybe we want to believe too desperately in a happy life for our characters that we are also being set up to believe in the DI as the good guys.
Maybe, Dev. I'm not sure if the DI are good, evil, or just pawns of someone bigger.
Personally, I wouldn't raise my kids on an Island like that, regardless of sonic fences, guns, etc., if I had a choice to leave. But, that's just me. If these parents do have that choice and decide to stay there, then that's up to them. If, however, they don't have a choice, then that is wrong, in my opinion. No one should be forced to put their lives, and especially not their children's lives, in danger.
If people are brainwashed, they don't have that choice...in a way that seems evidence against this theory, actually, as they seem very determined that everyone have "free will" and the choice to make a decision. Maybe they give people a choice to be brainwashed?
I suppose it also depends on how we are using the term "DI." I think a lot of the masses of DI could be, well, like us or our Lost characters. I didn't play it, but I read that the LOST game in the summer was about joining the Dharma Initiative. In that case, we must consider the masses of DI might be being mislead, manipulated, or brainwashed--which would put the real leadership--whoever or whatever that is--as the real responsible ones. I'm also not sure that leadership is necessarily Horace, since we haven't seen him in all that powerful of a role in the last episode.
Your point about them being part of something bigger is not lost on me, and I completely agree with it. It's all nesting dolls within nesting dolls within nesting dolls.
Last edited by Devera; 03-08-2009 at 06:22 PM.
Reason: fixing typos
Horace told Sawyer 'you're not DI material'. Maybe all it takes to fix that is a little time in #23.
I did think it strange to see Sawyer grabbing a Milk when they were talking, I expected it to be a DI beer can.
The Pearl station, with its monitors & reports on DI behavior, and this particular time period support your ideas. Maybe they were dropping DI LSD in the brainwashing experiments.
I like the subject of brainwashing but I just don't see enough evidence of it. I know producers always keep us guessing, but finding out that Sawyer was brainwashed would be a big disappointment for me.
There's a great song from the 1960's called For What It's Worth. It warns young people not to believe too much in their own propaganda. I think of the Dharma Initiative as a commune for young, gifted people heavily into behavioural science. When people talk about science vs. faith, it's implied that science is proven. But science is mostly theory. They're trying to get to the truth just as followers of faith do. They practice it until they can either believe or discard it. There is a lot of potential for abuse on either side, and I can see why brainwashing is a concern. But all the islanders live with the threat of one thing or another everyday. The fact that there's a threat doesn't mean that a line is always crossed. But for what it's worth, I think it's a interesting theory.
I like the subject of brainwashing but I just don't see enough evidence of it. I know producers always keep us guessing, but finding out that Sawyer was brainwashed would be a big disappointment for me.
I'm curious why it would be a disappointment to you. It wouldn't really be Sawyer's fault (or anyone else's for that matter, unless there is a mole)...and, as I said, the characters seem to be otherwise themselves so it wouldn't mean any character development or relationships in the DI aren't just as valid.
Devera, I'm not sure if brainwashing has been used or not, but most cults use some form of brainwashing... drugs seem like a good bet especially with reference to the "special" brownies the security team was brought. Wouldn't you want your security team on its toes?
Something weird about the DI... a group of hippies, almost none of whom seem like scientists at all.
Also, the Chang (Dharma Booth) video suggests that he lied to his own people about who he was... Candle, Wick, Wax. Also, the fake botanical station...
I think what the DI are looking for is gullibility, which is why Sawyer isn't "Dharma material."
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