Sayid, Eko, and Remorse

[interested]

In the “addiction to torture” thread, I said I was conflicted about what Sayid’s lack of remorse for beating Gale implied. Well, after last night’s episode, I am now thoroughly convinced it does represent a major spiritual decline/setback. The contrast with Eko is so sharp—here’s was Eko using Gale as a kind of confessional and shoring his locks in repentance for killing two others in pure self-defense while they were in the very act of abducting him, which contrasts sharply with Sayid’s feeling absolutely no remorse. ,

Sayid seems to have been plagued with a great deal of guilt during the series, but unlike Eko’s guilt, it has not been a very productive guilt—while Eko’s guilt leads to confession, repentance, relief, hope, and peace; Sayid’ guilt has led to despair, emptiness, deadness. He confessed to, in a manner, to Ana when bound to the tree, but whereas Eko smiles and feels relief after his confession, Sayid feels dead inside. The guilt hasn’t been fruitful in leading to hope/redemption/active repentance/peace/etc. like it has for Eko.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. I hope there are two steps forward in future episodes for the steps back.

What do people think about this contrast and the future prospects?

[whoknowswhy99]

I have to differ with you here. While we have seen marked similarities between Sayid and Eko, the latter's apparent religious faith is a major difference between he and Sayid. Confession is a major part of Catholicism, so Eko's confession to Gale was necessary for him to obtain forgiveness from God. I don't know the Muslim view of confession and fogiveness, or the view of redemption, so I can't state that here.

What I do know about Sayid is that from what we've seen, he hardened his heart to his own actions from when we see him left in the desert in One of Them to when Nadia pricks his conscience in Solitary. On the island, after torturing Gale, we see him doing that again, claiming, claiming, mind you, to feel no guilt. That is not to say that he won't later.

Perhaps his words to Ana about feeling dead inside are due to his belief that there IS no redemption for the things he has done and that the plane crash, not getting to Nadia, and Shannon's death are part of his punishment. If that is the case, and he is already damned, then in his angry, grieving state he may think: why make the effort? Yet, he will do what he has to to protect these people. He is not acting out of pure selfishness.

I don't think it is fair to compare the response to guilt of Sayid, who is from all we are shown a secular non-practicing muslim with that of Eko who is obviously a man of great faith.

[mrstater]

I don't think it is fair to compare the response to guilt of Sayid, who is from all we are shown a secular non-practicing muslim with that of Eko who is obviously a man of great faith.

Except for it's another version of "man of science, man of faith."

Interested, your points are all things that struck me during that Eko scene, too. Faith aside, the way the two men handled themselves in the role of interrogator was completely different. Eko had this personal thing to do, yet he managed to do it in somewhat of a detached way. The look of suspicion in his eyes as he left Gale behind was so telling - he learned as much about Gale as Sayid did, and probably has a door open to get more out of Gale. Not to say that Eko necessarily had ulterior motives in "confessing" -- but his emotional/mental/spiritual stability gives him more of an in to meet Gale head on in the mind games at work here.

To take it a step further (I apologize for going off-topic), consider how easily Gale manipulated Locke. Now that we know Ethan and the Fake!Hillbilly Others are all in league and are one and the same with Dharma, it's probably safe to assume Gale is one of them. The island really seems to be a big psychological experiment, and the Gale/Locke scene certainly played out as the microcosm of what's going on on the island: a big mind game attempting to manipulate the castaways back into negative behavior patterns they seemed to have overcome in season one, as they struggled to cope with the trauma of the plane crash and make a new life. Most of them past the initial tests: but now they're tempted again, and we see them regressing/fragmenting.

Confronting Gale may or may not have been Eko's next test - but he certainly seems to have adopted a mindset that will enable him to survive, stay sane, and retain his moral integrity. Connecting that back to Sayid...

Perhaps his words to Ana about feeling dead inside are due to his belief that there IS no redemption for the things he has done and that the plane crash, not getting to Nadia, and Shannon's death are part of his punishment. If that is the case, and he is already damned, then in his angry, grieving state he may think: why make the effort? Yet, he will do what he has to to protect these people. He is not acting out of pure selfishness.

I think it kind of comes down to a debate about whether sacrificing the self for a greater good is really a good thing. In one sense it's winning, because other lives are saved, and you get the whole sacrificial love thing. However, if the Dharma experiment is about personal salvation (whatever that might mean), then Sayid regressing to the militaristic man he used to be isn't the key to winning the game. (I understand that this of course, makes assumptions about Dharma that could be proved false.)

[Robinhood56]

I think Eko confessing and cutting his beard(?) are signs that. after finding his brother he is completely taking on the role of priest and intends to walk the walk. the confession was his last goodbye to the old, violent life. It makes me wonder what he will do if he is faced with Others who are violent again.

Said is, I think, hiding from pain that is just too much. He has cut off feelings and has chosen to be dead inside. Easier to live with. To know if his lack of remorse has just to do with Henry we would have to see how he feels if someone else, like a fellow survivor is hurt due to him. It may well be he is not capable right now of feeling remorse.

I thnk the next episode will tell us a lot about just where he is emotionally.

[interested]

wkw---I don't think we disagree that much. I could have written most of what you wrote. My point was that Sayid appears to have hardened himself again, whereas Eko is feeling his guilt. I only meant Eko's actions brought out that contrast--not that I would expect Sayid to be seeking redemption in the same manner as a Catholic, but that Eko's actions emphasized that Sayid has had a set-back on his own personal trek toward redemption--which will clearly take a different form than Eko's, once he resumes it (as I hope/believe he will).

[whoknowswhy99]

interested, What I was trying to say is that Eko's actions say more about him, than they do about Sayid and it is unfair to compare the two. I still feel that way.

Now, if we are comparing Sayid before Shannon's death with Sayid now, that's different. I do see a set-back here, but as I have stated in several other threads I think it is a temporary one. These characters are all on the road to redemption, but it's going to take awhile for them to get there. I'm counting on several more seasons.

I wonder what Sayid's actions toward Gale might be if Shannon were alive, yet still seeing Walt? Having heard the tailies stories of being stalked and kidnapped, and of the other missing children, what action would Sayid have taken, if any, to try to get answers?

[interested]

Originally Posted by whoknowswhy99

Now, if we are comparing Sayid before Shannon's death with Sayid now, that's different. I do see a set-back here,

I am comparing the two Sayids. Eko's actions emphasized the difference in the before and after Sayid for me. But yes, I understand what you are saying. We're dealing with a culturally Muslim soldier vs. a Catholic priest who will have very different worldviews/outlooks, but I would expect each to act within the realms of his own conscinece and to have highly functioning consciences. Sayid's, at the moment, is dulled as compared to previously.

These characters are all on the road to redemption, but it's going to take awhile for them to get there. I'm counting on several more seasons.

...too long...(although I do want the show to go on, yet I want resolution soon...conundrum)

I wonder what Sayid's actions toward Gale might be if Shannon were alive, yet still seeing Walt? Having heard the tailies stories of being stalked and kidnapped, and of the other missing children, what action would Sayid have taken, if any, to try to get answers?

Intriguing question. I think he would have interrogated him without beating him, and he certainly would not have lost control. I think it was the anger and grief over her death that made him lose control, more than it was anger at anything the Others had done. (Well, in his mind the Others killed Shannon, in a sense--so I mean more than anger at anything else the Others had done.) Before this point he really didn't seem all that concerned about the Others. Of course, we didn't see him for episodes at a time, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood56

I think Eko confessing and cutting his beard(?) are signs that. after finding his brother he is completely taking on the role of priest and intends to walk the walk. the confession was his last goodbye to the old, violent life. It makes me wonder what he will do if he is faced with Others who are violent again.

It's an interesting question. I think he would do what he regarded to be a necessary evil, and then confess and repent. That it was necessary would not make it less evil to him.

To know if his lack of remorse has just to do with Henry we would have to see how he feels if someone else, like a fellow survivor is hurt due to him.

Interesting point. Somehow I can't see him not feeling remorse if that happened. I don't think he is "dead" inside, but numb.

I thnk the next episode will tell us a lot about just where he is emotionally.

I hope so. It looks interesting.

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Originally Posted by mrstater

The island really seems to be a big psychological experiment, and the Gale/Locke scene certainly played out as the microcosm of what's going on on the island: a big mind game attempting to manipulate the castaways back into negative behavior patterns they seemed to have overcome in season one, as they struggled to cope with the trauma of the plane crash and make a new life. Most of them past the initial tests: but now they're tempted again, and we see them regressing/fragmenting.

They tried to take Eko in the beginning because he was a threat. But it's not that he is a threat physically, I don't think--at least not now. He has become a threat psychologically. He is at peace. He cannot be manipulated.

I think it kind of comes down to a debate about whether sacrificing the self for a greater good is really a good thing.

I think most people would say it is a good thing to sacrifice oneself for "the greater good"...except maybe Ayn Rand. The doubt raised in the episode "The Greater Good" was whether sacrificing other people for "the greater good" is a good thing.

However, if the Dharma experiment is about personal salvation (whatever that might mean), then Sayid regressing to the militaristic man he used to be isn't the key to winning the game. (I understand that this of course, makes assumptions about Dharma that could be proved false.)

Agreed, but then "the greater good" would be changed. "The greater good" would not, in this instance, be survival/protection of the other survivors/defeat of the enemy, so sacrificing himself in that goal would not actually be sacrificing himself for the greater good.

However, I wouldn't call being a "militaristic man" a regression. I think there are many and varied callings in society, and each has its place and its virtue. I don't think Sayid needs to stop being a soldier and stop doing what he is good at doing; he just needs to continue virtuosly in his calling--not losing control of himself, not using excessive or nonessential force, not seeking personal revenge, etc. As a soldier he did things he should not have done and for which he should feel guilt, but that does not mean he should not be "militaristic" at all, or that he needs to compeltely change his calling and nature to become something other than a soldier. He is what he is. Jack is a doctor. Sayid is a soldier. Eko is a priest. Ana is a cop. They need to do what they are gifted to do as virtuously as they can do it, and use those skills...here it comes....for "the greater good" rather than for ill.