LOST Rewind: "Man of Science, Man of Faith"

[workingmom]

Originally Posted by merry1

Well, my impression of the lines, especially considering the title of the ep -- is for Jack to lift up his faith -- believe in a higher power/order, etc. It almost seemed like a british way of saying something that might be said differently in the US, like an idiomatic expression (any brits out there who can help?) Des quickly changed the subject, perhaps, because he could tell Jack wasn't ready for any big sermon on faith, but Jack obviously did take in some of what he said, especially after Sarah really was fixed.

I took it to mean lift up his prayers as well. And when Jack just looked at him blankly, obviously not getting it, Desmond dumbed it down to mean his ankle. The phrase is used enough in the US too, but we didn't see much reference to churchgoing in Jack's background.
Another moment in this encounter when Jack just looks blankly at Desmond is when he says "I'm training... for a race around the world." When he gets no reaction from Jack, he saves face by whimsically adding, "Impressive, I know."
People have commented before that Desmond seemed so hopeful and upbeat just after the heart-wrenching conversation he had just had with Penny, from LTDA. Maybe he was just drawing on newfound determination to win his honor back.

[Save The Humans]

I think it's cuz Penny told him that she'd wait for him.

And I always thought "lift it up" = "cheer up" or "think positive, man!"

[Liplocked]

(I'll be adding a couple irregular features to the Rewind posts for Season 2, Men of Science, Men of Faith and "You Opened The Box!" when the episode warrants them. I'll also be cutting back on the length of these.)

I look forward to them Crimson I have to cut back myself – I’m going crazy trying to comment upon all my observations. I shall attempt from now on only to say something which hasn’t already been said, but to continue answering the questions you pose. I’d just got into my stride!

*Men of Science, Men of Faith -- The dominant theme of Season 2 pits faith versus science: Jack evolves from being the man of science to the man of faith in this episode. Both in flashback and on the Island, he struggles internally with how much to believe what he can not prove, especially when such belief brings comfort and hope to those around him. In flashback, he goes from having a cold bedside manner to comforting Sarah. On Island he assures the Losties they are safe from the Others, with nothing to back the claim up. He's against providing false hope, while Christian tells him, "But it's still hope", a lesson he seems to learn. This sets the tone for the rest of the season as every character struggles with the need for hope, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

From what I’ve seen of Jack and John so far, John is the man of science; his ability to walk is empirical evidence that the Island is ‘special’. He talks Faith, but his walk is that of a man with the ability to adjust his belief in the face of changing or contrary evidence and circumstances.

Jack’s behaviour is driven by a zealous dogma: the Others are bad, John’s dangerous, get off the island at any cost.

While blue and orange have been flagged as reappearing opposing colours, this episode is another red one for me; right from the ominous red shirt (lessin’ they be shorts) in the washer at the start. St Seb’s is full of it.

Also in the hospital, were back to the man who explained ‘redshirts’ to the Star Trek uninitiated: Boone ~ and his Series Pilot pens; the man requiring intubation is sister Shannon’s dad. (I know yous all know – but I needed to explain my connection.)

Loved the look on Jack’s theatre nurses face when he told Sarah he’d fix her. All the staff had a pregnant pause – and not for the first time where Dr Shephard Junior’s been concerned. (I say “not for the first time”, but don’t quote me on the chronology )

*Shannon sees Walt for the first of three times this season. Why is Walt trying to talk to her specifically? If it isn't Walt, if it's the Monster, what is it trying to do and why? Walt is saying backwards, "Don't push the button. Button bad." As has been mentioned elsewhere on the Fuselage, could Walt actually be referring to the button on Naomi's satellite phone, not the Button in the hatch?

If it’s Walt, why is he dripping wet? He was dry on the Other’s boat and Shannon has no reason to imagine him wet. But I’ll let that go…. If Walt is Smokey, his/its motive may be to lure wanted-John-dead Shannon away to where she might be killed. John is receptive and I think wanted as a player by each of two sides (at least!) with differing ends on the Island.

Or the answer is as simple as ‘course correction’. Shannon wasn’t supposed to be on the Island at all (and John’s wrong about them all, each and everyone of them, being brought to the Island for a reason. I can’t think her purpose was to die at Ana’s hands… *headache*).

I can see a way to the button being Naomi’s phone – but then I can also get behind Walt having said “Push the button: don’t push the button, (=) Bad” I’ll be happy if what he told Locke not to open – and he said not to open that ‘thing’ I think – turns out to be something other than the Swan.

I’m going to get excited now, hold onto your hats: DESMOND!! He worked for the Royal Shakespeare Company (as a set designer) and their theatre in Stratford is The Swan!

Desmond, The Swan, theatre, operating, Jack… I just put that together today.

*Was Desmond already "flashing" when he met Jack in the stadium and told him he may have healed Sarah? Was he "flashing" when he painted the hatch mural, which includes references to a second Island and a man with an eye patch?

I dunno - but I get wrapped up in Time Loop theory and quantum entanglement if I think on it so: I think the raft appears in the mural too - reminds me of the Kon-Tiki.

I’m gratified to read here the idea the Island might ‘amplify’ existing ability – I’d come to a similar conclusion myself only days ago. Survived a deathfall John was healed, ER doctor Jack resurrects the ‘dead’ Charlie… okay, not much to go on there, but Charlie:

He was what Jack lifted up. Taking the weight off his neck bought Kate the time to cut him down. But yeah, it’s Faith, belief, prayer – call it what you will – that Des was referring to.

*"All Roads Lead Here": The scene where Jack first meets Locke and Desmond in the hatch is repeated in each of the first three episodes of this season. "All roads lead here" in this case plays off Desmond and Jack being brought together by seemingly impossible circumstances to this island in the Pacific

If that line were a crossword clue – the answer would be Rome! I’ll think about it…

[Claudia815]

Originally Posted by Liplocked

From what I’ve seen of Jack and John so far, John is the man of science

Didn't Damon and Carlton explain the title of the episode on the DVD commentary? And in one of the recent clip shows? It doesn't mean we can't interpret it however we please, but theirs is ultimately the point of view that I tend to use a starting point for my interpretation. It's just a personal preference.

[Liplocked]

I haven't listened to any of the DVD commentaries - and haven't seen the clips show either. My interpretation is based on my own life experience of the tools other people use to reason and rationalise - or don't.

Watching LOST is a bit like my appreciation of Art; there's a print hanging in my daughter's school - which I know is of a Dante Gabriel Rossetti because I recognise his Muse - rich in symbolism I cannot interpret. I would undoubtedly get more from it with an explanation,

But I can still see it's beautiful and appreciate the skill without one.

Wasn't I supposed to be thinking about roads....?

[Claudia815]

Originally Posted by Liplocked

I would undoubtedly get more from it with an explanation,

But I can still see it's beautiful and appreciate the skill without one.

Absolutely. I've probably misunderstood your premise, but rereading the "so far" clarifies your thesis a bit. I think that's a case you can make for the show as a whole, though I don't necessarily agree with it. This episode in particular however was written with a clear intent to pitch the two opposite views of Science and Faith and explain how Jack was a man of faith himself at one point and then lost it.

Apologies for having reduced the scope of your observation. It's a bit like the title to "Puff The Magic Dragon" isn't it?

[Beir]

Originally Posted by Lobby

This bit of dialog has always stood out like a sore thumb to me. Desmond is talking about miracles and we are expecting some major piece of advice here but instead he tells the doctor to "lift it up". Jack doesn't understand what he is referring to either and I can't help but think this dialog will be revisited. What is Jack suppose to life up?

If you take the words on face value (Des was talking about lifting up the foot) the writing seems clumsy to me. But Lost's writers are not clumsy so I can't help but think there is more to this conversation than what we presently understand.

Someone on another site gave me a link of a sketch of the Blast Door Map (Lockdown) and it includes the phrases that were written on it. To make a long story short, one of the phrases on the map, written in Latin I might add, is 'Sursum Corda' which when translated means 'Lift up your hearts'. I don't know if it means anything, but considering Desmond used to be a Monk, the Latin phrase on the map and the 'Lift it up' line to Jack might be of some significance.

BTW, the sketch is great and has a lot of other clues, but I don't know if i can post the link here, so if anyone is interested let me know.

[Sam G]

Originally Posted by Beir

Someone on another site gave me a link of a sketch of the Blast Door Map (Lockdown) and it includes the phrases that were written on it. To make a long story short, one of the phrases on the map, written in Latin I might add, is 'Sursum Corda' which when translated means 'Lift up your hearts'. I don't know if it means anything, but considering Desmond used to be a Monk, the Latin phrase on the map and the 'Lift it up' line to Jack might be of some significance.

BTW, the sketch is great and has a lot of other clues, but I don't know if i can post the link here, so if anyone is interested let me know.

Interesting that the link changes what it says when you try to add it here and won't link. Oh, I get it. The Fuselage has locked them out for spamming the map, it's not something I did.

So Beir, I've never run across that before. I had to check the link somewhere else and it worked there.

[Liplocked]

Originally Posted by Claudia815

Absolutely. I've probably misunderstood your premise, but rereading the "so far" clarifies your thesis a bit. I think that's a case you can make for the show as a whole, though I don't necessarily agree with it. This episode in particular however was written with a clear intent to pitch the two opposite views of Science and Faith and explain how Jack was a man of faith himself at one point and then lost it.

We don’t have to agree LOST is accommodating to the subjective I’m sure. Jack’s flashforward suggests to me that far from the pathetic drunk he at first appears, he is in fact empowered by a sense of purpose. We all get stalked by the Black Dog from time to time – but he didn’t jump. He believes, believes, he has to go back. Kate may take some convincing – but it should be fun to watch. lol

For all my believing Jack has to learn to let go – I always had an inkling his No Surrender, No Retreat mentality might prove his salvation. Looks like it’s time has come. I hope so.

What the future holds for John I’m less sure about; if his destiny is real – it mightn’t be pleasant; subsumation (don’t like subsumption – sounds oily) by the island perhaps. Almost the best I could hope for him is that at some point he realises his destiny has been fulfilled in the assisting of someone else… and he can step down. But I think he’ll cop at a full run.

If he isn’t killed in the pursuit of his dream, the loss of it might finish him. It didn’t take a hatch imploding to crush John Locke, the revelations at the Pearl did that. He’s fragile when he wavers, if the next Big Thing doesn’t come along to fire his passion… he may just blink out.

Apologies for having reduced the scope of your observation. It's a bit like the title to "Puff The Magic Dragon" isn't it?

Aw heck. You have nothing to apologise for – it’s my own dumb fault if I choose to follow false trails because I can’t be arsed to get out the map I’ve been given.

I love the ambiguity and evolutionary nature of English (I’m reading a book on its history) I found the word ‘funk’ in Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, which dates it to the 19th century! I thought it was new.

But I’m left wondering if ‘Flasher’- as Des might be described - means the same in America as it does here. And we thought Des was jailed for cowardice

[Save The Humans]

Uh--no. "Flasher" in the USA means someone who, um, exposes his/her birthday suit to people. You might wanna try a different term. . . .