I'm new here (obviously). I have been trying to get my head around what Daniel's experiments since the episode aired, though, and posting at another forum. Here is what I came up with:
Okay my approach is to disregard the clocks and estimated times etc. After all, all we have is two clocks with a 31 minute difference between them, and you cannot extrapolate much from that. So I want to concentrate just on the original scenario. Daniel talks with Regina, she sends the payload, tracks it, it appears to land. However, it doesn't. Then some unspecified amount of time later it does land at Daniel's feet. Now, clocks aside, that alone is "way weird."
Okay to explain this I am going to revert to a wormhole explanation, even though that is a rather hackneyed science fiction device, and quite unworkable from a real world perspective. So here is a nice diagram of a wormhole from wikipedia:
. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...p/wormhole.jpg
Okay, my idea is that Regina and Daniel are at either ends of the wormhole, the radio waves carrying their voices travel through it. And that is the route through which Regina's tracking device homes in on the beacon and uses to calculate the progress of the rocket. However, the rocket goes on another route. It goes the long way and that is why it takes so much longer to arrive.
This means that the island is in the future in relation to the freighter, not the past. You can't send a rocket into the past. Rockets, like everything else travel into the future. The times on the clocks? It doesn't matter what they are. It only matters that they are 31 minutes off. Why? It means that the island is slipping more into the future. Before Dan and Regina's times were in synch through the wormhole and they were traveling along the time line at an constant real time separation. But now that separation is growing.
Well, I tried to show how it *can* happen. I'm half asleep though, so who knows what kind of sense this will make in the morning. Just a note though, if you do my geometry trick above to make sense of things, if you draw lines from the horizontal to the angled line, draw them straight up, BUT if you try to connect lines from the angled one to the horizontal, you'll draw the perpendicuar to the angled line, and thus at an angle to the horizontal. I know this post just turned into gibberish for a lot of people, and if your still with me, god bless ya. Try it though, it will make a lot more sense. It worked great for my wife.
can you try to explain this again? english is not my native language so I guess that is the part of the problem..
from what I understood two different time periods on the island somehow correspond to only one time period on the island..
and something else-time =movement of the matter,if the time passes differently on the island and outside of it of course there will be a gap between when that rocket was supposed to arrive for someone looking from the outside and for someone who is actually on the island-the location seen on the radar is within one timeframe and the location inside that "island bubble" is something else
ill try to explain it differently:
the speed of the rotation of the earth causes each spot on the earths surface to return to the same point in 24 hours. this rotation is just a part of much larger system of movements like the earth revolving around the sun ,sun revolving around the center of the galaxy etc..
all these movements are connected thus creating one system,or one timeframe..
now think if the speeds were different that would produce another timeframe and the locations of the objects at the certain point in time would be different for the two systems
thus a person from one system could never know or see the object from the other system as from his point of view there is one location for the object and thaT location is "empty"..
thats why nobody can see the island,it is NEVER on the earths surface-not from our point of view
Last edited by vkoracx; 02-18-2008 at 12:55 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
What is strange for me is the real-time communication that occurs. Assume the off-island time goes faster, for example 6 times as fast as on the island, he should notice a difference in voice, or not?
The radio waves are following natures laws, so off-island the waves travel 6 times as fast, on the island however, when inside the 'globe' they travel 6 times more slow, so the voice should sound different. Or is there no difference in speed of the radio waves?
We can leave the spead of the radio waves out of it --- what we're talking about is the "speed" at which the people in the differing time frames are actually "talking"
If there's no time lens, just a straight up time differential, you're going to hear it, whether you're talking via telephone, radio, or two tin cans and a string.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTemple
If there would be spots with more and less time speed-up speed-down, they would receive a message from outside the island multiple times, because this goed all directions. And we didnt hear that.
Right, they would receive the signal multiple times. But, here's the thing, the other signals would arrive *later* -- from the island perspective -- than the person listening for them would care about. Also, from what I think I know about these things, they wouldn't be picked up by the antenna, because, even though radio waves *broadcast* in all directions, the "receiver" only picks up the signal according to line of sight. I mean, this is why sometimes your radiostation conks out when you pass under a bridge.
Because the freighter and the island are having realtime conversations, if the "time lens" is the operating theory, we can assume that the freighter is positioned at the "true path" in my diagram.
Eh..... there are lots of issues. A lot of it could be explained away with the "magic phones" that are configured to talk across the time lens.
BTW, magic phones would also be needed if there's a straight up time differential, and my time lens theory is bunk. These phones, though, would simply need to "slow down" the voice of the person coming from the freighter in order for it to sound normal.
"Magic phones," though, under any theory, raises a whole bunch of other issues. It means that the freighters know about the time differential beforehand, or else why would they have brought magic phones? So if Faraday already knows about the time differential -- I mean, if they've got the math worked out to the point where they've built magic phones, why does Faraday need to be conducting experiments, and why would he be surprised when their are weird time effects? Just for kicks?
An explanation would be that the Freighters know about the time differential in general, but then Faraday's experiment indicated that something weird is going on that even *they* didn't expect. But that doesn't make sense from a good storytelling perspective. The audience (us) is still in the dark about the nature of the time differential. So, to be creating plot points based on a *change* or *event* that has altered the differential, that's just bad plotting.
TPTB have to explain to us how the time differential works, first. Then we can have our satisfying Aha moment and wrap our heads around it. *Then* faraday can look at his instrument panel and say *OMG, the time differential is unstable! If we don't prevent it, the whole universe will explode!"
Get it? By having the freighters unstand the time differential enough to have magic phones and then be surprised by the experiment results TPTB is launching "the universe will explode" plot line before we're ready for it.
I mean, at some point, there's going to be an exposition scene. At some point, everyone's going to be gathered around a campfire, Faraday's going to explain the physics of it. And then Hurley's going to say "Wait, dude, are you telling me we travelled in time?" And then Sawyer's going to give Faraday the nickname of Dr. Who. This is what the character a of genius physicist is for. But if he explains the physics and then says why the world is going to explode, it's too much. It's too much exposition for a show that only deals in hints and clues and doles thing out bit by bit. If Faraday has to do all that in a single campfire session, suddenly we're not in a mystery/fantasy show, we're in a hard science fiction show. And instead of getting clues from the loveable golden Labrador, it's all, "If my precise calculations are correct." The Jaters and Skaters will burn this website to the ground.
-------------------------
Do you see what I'm saying? Everything is simpler and much more in line with the implicit contract of the willing suspension of disbelief if it turns out the clocks were switched due to a production error.
[[[Timelost23, you're starting to see this, right?]]]
If it's a production screwup, we still don't have all the answers, just a few of them -- like always and we can still exist in that pleasurable state of being "teased" by the show, feeling like we have some idea of what's going on, but not all of it.
All of the other possible solutions for the physics of the rocket experiment, they rely on stuff like "the island is moving at lightspeed" and "gravitational effects of negative energy"That science fiction is too "hard" for this show.It would work for a "hard sci-fi" movie like "Sunshine", where the whole point is to portray space travel as it might actually happen. But Lost is soft sci-fi: Does Kate love Sawyer? No, she loves Jack! No, she loves Sawyer!
I realize it's heresey to keep harping on it. 80 percent of the responses I get from this theory are "Tsk, tsk, Damon knows what he's doing." "The people who make this show are really smart, I *know* they wouldn't make such a mistake."
But look, the fundamental dynamic of this show is Faith vs. Reason. And you guys just aren't seeing it: You've been on the island of a TV show about people on an island for so long, you've turned into Locke!
The rocket clock being faster than the island clock is fundamentally implausible. Any theory that makes it work is too complex for the show. It's the scientific equivalent of a 48-minute makeout scene between Hugo and Kate. It doesn't work.
We can leave the spead of the radio waves out of it --- what we're talking about is the "speed" at which the people in the differing time frames are actually "talking"
If there's no time lens, just a straight up time differential, you're going to hear it, whether you're talking via telephone, radio, or two tin cans and a string.
Right, they would receive the signal multiple times. But, here's the thing, the other signals would arrive *later* -- from the island perspective -- than the person listening for them would care about. Also, from what I think I know about these things, they wouldn't be picked up by the antenna, because, even though radio waves *broadcast* in all directions, the "receiver" only picks up the signal according to line of sight. I mean, this is why sometimes your radiostation conks out when you pass under a bridge.
Because the freighter and the island are having realtime conversations, if the "time lens" is the operating theory, we can assume that the freighter is positioned at the "true path" in my diagram.
Eh..... there are lots of issues. A lot of it could be explained away with the "magic phones" that are configured to talk across the time lens.
BTW, magic phones would also be needed if there's a straight up time differential, and my time lens theory is bunk. These phones, though, would simply need to "slow down" the voice of the person coming from the freighter in order for it to sound normal.
"Magic phones," though, under any theory, raises a whole bunch of other issues. It means that the freighters know about the time differential beforehand, or else why would they have brought magic phones? So if Faraday already knows about the time differential -- I mean, if they've got the math worked out to the point where they've built magic phones, why does Faraday need to be conducting experiments, and why would he be surprised when their are weird time effects? Just for kicks?
An explanation would be that the Freighters know about the time differential in general, but then Faraday's experiment indicated that something weird is going on that even *they* didn't expect. But that doesn't make sense from a good storytelling perspective. The audience (us) is still in the dark about the nature of the time differential. So, to be creating plot points based on a *change* or *event* that has altered the differential, that's just bad plotting.
TPTB have to explain to us how the time differential works, first. Then we can have our satisfying Aha moment and wrap our heads around it. *Then* faraday can look at his instrument panel and say *OMG, the time differential is unstable! If we don't prevent it, the whole universe will explode!"
Get it? By having the freighters unstand the time differential enough to have magic phones and then be surprised by the experiment results TPTB is launching "the universe will explode" plot line before we're ready for it.
I mean, at some point, there's going to be an exposition scene. At some point, everyone's going to be gathered around a campfire, Faraday's going to explain the physics of it. And then Hurley's going to say "Wait, dude, are you telling me we travelled in time?" And then Sawyer's going to give Faraday the nickname of Dr. Who. This is what the character a of genius physicist is for. But if he explains the physics and then says why the world is going to explode, it's too much. It's too much exposition for a show that only deals in hints and clues and doles thing out bit by bit. If Faraday has to do all that in a single campfire session, suddenly we're not in a mystery/fantasy show, we're in a hard science fiction show. And instead of getting clues from the loveable golden Labrador, it's all, "If my precise calculations are correct." The Jaters and Skaters will burn this website to the ground.
-------------------------
Do you see what I'm saying? Everything is simpler and much more in line with the implicit contract of the willing suspension of disbelief if it turns out the clocks were switched due to a production error.
[[[Timelost23, you're starting to see this, right?]]]
If it's a production screwup, we still don't have all the answers, just a few of them -- like always and we can still exist in that pleasurable state of being "teased" by the show, feeling like we have some idea of what's going on, but not all of it.
All of the other possible solutions for the physics of the rocket experiment, they rely on stuff like "the island is moving at lightspeed" and "gravitational effects of negative energy"That science fiction is too "hard" for this show.It would work for a "hard sci-fi" movie like "Sunshine", where the whole point is to portray space travel as it might actually happen. But Lost is soft sci-fi: Does Kate love Sawyer? No, she loves Jack! No, she loves Sawyer!
I realize it's heresey to keep harping on it. 80 percent of the responses I get from this theory are "Tsk, tsk, Damon knows what he's doing." "The people who make this show are really smart, I *know* they wouldn't make such a mistake."
But look, the fundamental dynamic of this show is Faith vs. Reason. And you guys just aren't seeing it: You've been on the island of a TV show about people on an island for so long, you've turned into Locke!
The rocket clock being faster than the island clock is fundamentally implausible. Any theory that makes it work is too complex for the show. It's the scientific equivalent of a 48-minute makeout scene between Hugo and Kate. It doesn't work.
---------------
Wow. There I've gone again.
Have you posted a query for Gregg Nations to see if he'll own up to a production error? He has admitted production errors in the past, when asked. If you do not get an admission, then we will have to assume the clocks were presented as intended.
can you try to explain this again? english is not my native language so I guess that is the part of the problem..
from what I understood two different time periods on the island somehow correspond to only one time period on the island..
and something else-time =movement of the matter,if the time passes differently on the island and outside of it of course there will be a gap between when that rocket was supposed to arrive for someone looking from the outside and for someone who is actually on the island-the location seen on the radar is within one timeframe and the location inside that "island bubble" is something else
ill try to explain it differently:
the speed of the rotation of the earth causes each spot on the earths surface to return to the same point in 24 hours. this rotation is just a part of much larger system of movements like the earth revolving around the sun ,sun revolving around the center of the galaxy etc..
all these movements are connected thus creating one system,or one timeframe..
now think if the speeds were different that would produce another timeframe and the locations of the objects at the certain point in time would be different for the two systems
thus a person from one system could never know or see the object from the other system as from his point of view there is one location for the object and thaT location is "empty"..
thats why nobody can see the island,it is NEVER on the earths surface-not from our point of view
now this means the question of where the island is is not relevant at all, what is important is the location of the portals that connect our world with that other-that can be multiple locations on the earth and only one from the island(the barring)
now lets say someone knows those locations and he also knows the speed rate/time of the other world-using all the calculations he can send the beam/projection through the portal to the other world-this could explain the random showing up of the cabin on different places
It’s difficult thinking through this with the three points of view involved: that of Regina, Daniel and the rocket.
Regina
Absolutely no time anomaly whatsoever. She fires the rocket and about 20 seconds later she has some kind of electronic confirmation (maybe provided by the rocket at impact?) that it arrived at the beacon on schedule. With the information available to her (excluding Daniel on the phone), all’s good and it’s just another day at the office, or freighter, as the case may be.
Daniel
Houston, we have a problem. At “zero kilometers”, there’s no rocket. It appeared to me that Daniel was really expecting a rocket and was fairly perplexed that it did not arrive on schedule. Yes, he did have a nice tripod, a cool beacon, a rocket and two digital clocks and was most likely preparing to measure a time discrepancy, but I really don’t think he was expecting this initial delay.
OK, the delay. Is everyone sure it’s 31 minutes? I mean, what if those are timers, and not clocks? Could it be possible that, according to Daniel, it took 2 hours, 45 minutes and 3 seconds to arrive? Could the rocket be that late for the expected 20-second flight? We know Juliet was gone for at least a couple of hours… just a thought.
For me, Problem #1 is the unexpected DELAY, as experienced by Daniel. (OK, Daniel talking to Regina presents an “information problem”…but let’s ignore it for now)
Rocket
We have every indication that the flight was “normal” for the rocket; ie. on course. Or, at the very least, Regina didn’t say (or detect) otherwise. Thanks to the on-board clock or timer, however, we have Problem #2. Regardless of whether they’re both clocks or timers, they’re still 31 minutes off. Ask the rocket how long the flight took, and he’d say it took 31 minutes longer than Daniel would say. Of course, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Therefore, Problem #2 is the DISCREPANCY of 31 minutes between Daniel’s “island clock” and the rocket’s “on-board” clock.
The Magic Phones
OK, here’s Problem #3: the apparent “real-time” sat-phone communication. This doesn’t seem to fit in at all. Somehow, there’s a thread of “universally-synced-now-time” running through all this mess and the sat phones are using this thread.
About the only way I can wrap my head around this is to assume that:
1. the only way to travel to the physical island is “through” something
2. the island only exists at the end of this aforementioned something
3. time is running faster at the island than everywhere else…like 93 times faster. 1,860 seconds (31 minutes) divided by 20 seconds = 93.
4. Time is not only faster on the island, it is accelerating (maybe pushing the button kept it from doing that?)
5. The sat phones have a way of getting to the “real world” without using the aforementioned “something”.
Although I struggle making a clear case for this (or any case at all), it somehow makes a little sense…at least to me.
Do we really know how long Daniel waited on the rocket?
If the clocks were sync'd when he left the boat, then I think we might be able to explain the rocket's behavior.
When the rocket was launched, Regina was tracking using RWT or "fast-time".
Daniel did not see it because he was on IT or "slow time".
So the rocket did not get there when Regina thought it should because of the time differential and Daniel stands around waiting for it.
What I don't think we REALLY know (and please correct me if I am wrong) is how long Daniel was standing around waiting. I did get the IMPRESSION that it was more than a few minutes, there is no real confirmation of this and it really may have been 30 seconds.
You are spot on, 100% correct, absolutely. We DO NOT know how long Daniel actually waited between regina saying "0km, it's there" and when the rocket actually landed. I thnk it was no more than a couple of minutes. Therefore, I believe Daniel's clock was synced to the rocket clock while on the boat. So, Daniel's clock has been slowing every since he got insdie the Island's time anomoly.
The ratio of time loss on the Island will be, IMNSHO,
31 minutes lost : The elapsed time since Daniel first entered the anomoly, whle flying in on the Helipcopter, the night before the experiment.
Or, in other words,
31 minutes : Some unknown number of hours
Is this what you're talking about? I guess so!
I thought about it for a while now and I believe we're thinking the wrong way about this. In the first post CSSTolkien said something about a "clock on a rocket" experiment.
This is the mistake! It is not the clock on the rocket that is the problem but the clock on the island.
Here's why: the methods we used to describe the time difference are those that describe two different reference systems where one system is moving fast enough so that relativistic effects can occur. And we all assumed that the moving rocket would be that reference system... the one that makes it necessary to use relativistic thinking. But it is not!
Why? Because it's moving nowhere near the speed of light!!! So how could time dilatation occur in the first place?
The cause has to be the island! Not the flying rocket.
Unfortunately that means that this is a problem of general relativity... time dilatation cause by - probably - gravity! and not speed as in general relativity.
However... I wouldn't be that surprised if they really switched the clocks accidentally... the numbers just fit so nicely
not necessary -if they are in the different universe all the movements are different (at different speed ) and the difference in the speeds of two universes may as well be close to the speed of light-that way you can still stick to the theory of relativity
not necessary -if they are in the different universe all the movements are different (at different speed ) and the difference in the speeds of two universes may as well be close to the speed of light-that way you can still stick to the theory of relativity
My understanding of the speed of light (and it's effects) is such that the speed of light is a constant...everywhere, in all directions. So, if you're in a car driving 60mph and you turn on your lights, those photons are traveling C, not C + 60mph...and that is experienced uniformly, regardless of others speeds and positions witnessing the event.
and
and 